It could be because in Soviet Union they had this perfume called "Red Moscow" and it was almost the same as Chanel no 5. They had almost exactly the same formula because both originated from very old pre-soviet times, there is an interesting history about that.. Anyway so they just had this perfume available, and since it was very very close to the Chanel they could use it easily without any suspicions so everyone would just think they wear Chanel. If anyone is interested whether today's Chanel no.5 is close to the modern Red Moscow - the answer is no, seems like the formula already changed a few times. They are completely different. But you can still say that they are indeed somewhat belong to the same family/type of the perfume..
This is not ridiculous at all. These services are well prepared and have naturally thought hard about how they cover their people. Such seemingly simple things can have a significant impact on getting such jobs done. "Camouflage is everything!". If you study history you can see that of course such methods were used. They weren't stupid back then either.
Glad to see someone point out that, "this is still another human being at the end of the day."... a class act added to a story that has long since dehumanized the Jane.... no matter her profession... awesome job, per usual, Joe and entertaining as always!
Exactly. She probably has distant nieces and nephews out there who heard from their parents and grandparents about an aunt who stopped contacting them sometime around 1970. We have isotope analysis results but now we need a DNA analysis conducted. Find a blood relative and you’ll identify her.
As someone with a degree in psychology, I think the fifth theory is very plausible. She might have some form of paranoia and or psychosis. This would explain almost everything. She might have thought she was followed, so she traveled all the time, used different wigs and names. We can also find religious symbols on her belongings, it is common for psychotic people to be religious. Her strange odor could mean lacking hygiene, wich is common in psychosis or cold even have to do with occult protection spells made from garlic she used. Strange behaviours like moving furnitures around and changing rooms also hint to mental illness. A spy wouldn’t do that, as it attracts quite a lot of attention. She might have had weird beliefs and rituals corresponding to that. Also her death, which probably was a suicide, fits to psychosis. Schizophrenic people offen have depression and 10% commit suicide. And this often takes place in a very violent or weird manner. Besides taking the sleeping pills (what would have been enough to kill her) she lit herself on fire which must have been extremely painful. Maybe she thought she had to do it for some reason.
There is someone in my immediate family who suffers from chronic psychosis and this video reminded me of them before that theory was even mentioned. He doubts her ability to travel up the mountain with the pills in her system but I wonder if toxicology would have detected commonly abused stimulants at the time. I sincerely doubt that was her first time abusing medication.
I tend to agree with your speculation in general, but I don't think the Isdahl Woman intended suicide when she stashed her belongings in the storage locker. The locker itself and the items in it, esp money and new shoes, all seem like she planned to return. (What would 500 deutschmarks have bought her back then?) Nothing ceremonial or symbolic seems to have been done to them. I lean toward murder committed by an amateur, and I've seen mentally ill people get themselves into bad situations with bad people. But what if her mental illness was multiple-personalities, and one of them was suicidal, took over after the locker stash, and eventually got its way? Can that happen? Would it explain the various names and wigs? Having apparently been attractive, could she have been sexually abused when younger and developed different personalities to cope with it? BTW, I've been a sex worker, and she wasn't one, at least not toward the end. Sex workers have to stay fastidiously clean, and even if a client wants a stinky girl, that will be only for him. If her murderer was her stink-loving sugar-daddy, she wouldn't be seen talking to "men". Unlikely she had a pimp; at least these days in most of the world, nearly all high-end sex workers are fully independent, or work at brothels. Pimps are generally street-level. As with "Peter Bergmann" case, I'm surprised that biometric algorithms haven't matched her to a missing person case.
@@furball192 Streetwalkers in the Western world, meaning those who deliberately walk the streets to attract clients, almost always have drug problems and may be homeless as well. But even so, they have to keep themselves clean so they don't smell bad. (I was never a streetwalker; I got clients through online profiles or chance meetings, and I've never been a druggie.) In Vegas I can imagine streetwalkers on "the big Strip" who are an exception to the rule, and maybe also on west Fremont (which was the original Strip), but the rest of the metro is the same as anywhere else. And streetwalkers in the Orient might be a different case too, for all I know.
theory 5 is honestly the first thing I thought of, the tragic last days of the Isdal womans life sound very much like a bipolar manic episode with psychotic features. scratching off labels on your meds, wearing wigs to "avoid detection", cutting tags out of clothing, going from country to country, constantly switching hotel rooms and moving furniture, behaving erratically, hooking up and going out with random guys, smelling like b/o because showering isnt a priority when you think someone's after you, swallowing a bunch of sleeping pills because you cant take it anymore, deciding to go camping on a whim, and accidently setting yourself on fire in your altered state on another note: it kinda frustrates me how everyone just defaults to paranoid schizophrenia whenever paranoia is brought up. other mental illnesses can cause paranoia and psychosis, and both of those things can appear by themselves :/
Well don't forget most the pills were digested and only a small amount were still found whole - and at such a radical dosage, the chances of you having any motor skills whatsoever are zero. I suppose she could've been out there for some time but still, it's a miracle she was even still alive at that point
you can even get a semi like state of this by steroids too, Immune system ones I know when I had 500 grams i think it was? it was a high dose I saw things, heard things and pretty much went crazy. so it also doesn't need to be a mental illness it can be medication
Joe, I am 67 years old and do not write fan letters BUT ...I want to tell you that I enjoy your personality and how you present your stories. You have a great way of telling them and you make me smile. So thank you! I wish the best for you and your family.
My theory is this: she was a mentally ill German woman who travelled a lot, was paranoid about being followed, was misdiagnosed (which is why she got the pills) and was, by that point, losing her sanity. She walked up into the mountains, took the pills, drank the alcohol, and passed out with a lit cigarette in her mouth. It fell on her sweater, and she died of a combination of the booze, pills, and hypothermia. The lit cigarette, meanwhile, began the "wick effect" (previously known as Spontaneous Human Combustion.) Over the next few days, the body slowly burned from the midsection outward (which is why the hat and boots survived.) Her family was used to her running off, so they never bothered to report her missing.
This is exactly what I was thinking. I work with people with severe mental illness and the strange behavior and bad smell line up perfectly with schizophrenia. I have met many beautiful women in my work who don't shower but still like to shop and go out for dinner
The people of DNA Doe Project can verify that there are people out there who have been unidentified for years....yet, their family, for various reasons, never really looked for them or reported them missing. Then, the DNA people come to their door and say, "hey, we think we found your daughter (sister, cousin) deceased" The family then says, "Oh! We just thought she didn't want to hang around with us!" It happens. Not everyone actively pursues missing family members.
@@mitchsargent4233 not always sad. My uncle has been missing for about 30 years. He hated his siblings and treated them horribly. He always said he couldn’t wait until he could get rid of them. My mom and her siblings have given up on looking for him. Sometimes you just reap what you sow :/
The Isdal woman is fascinating and tragic. I have a background in mental health and theory #5 is plausible for a few reasons. 1. Her strange odor. Personal hygiene is often an issue for those struggling with depression, bipolar, schizophrenia and other mental disorders. The Isdal woman's body odor could indicate that she was not taking care of her hygiene properly due to some kind of mental illness. 2. Her paranoia. Isdal woman's many identities and constant movements could suggest that she believed she was being stalked. Perhaps experiencing gangstalking, a delusional disorder that causes sufferers to believe that they are constantly being harrassed and stalked by ordinary people around them and that these people aren't ordinary at all but are agents of the State or aliens or the New World Order. People who claim to be victims of gangstalking have been known to abandon their lives and their families and friends to go into hiding, moving frequently. 3. Her death. The Isdal woman probably took her own life and that too indicates that she may have been struggling with mental health issues. 4. Spy or Schizophrenia? The behavior that made people think Isdal woman was a spy would also fit someone who was delusional but functional enough to appear somewhat normal to those around her. Moving furniture around, moving location frequently and keeping a log in a code could indicate she was a spy but more likely indicates she was having a delusional episode and thought she needed to evade something or someone. Perhaps being a spy was part of her delusions?
It actually has a lot of parallels with the Elisa Lam case (paranoia, erratic behavioir in the hotel and switching rooms, for example) so I think this makes the most sense.
Something that I’ve always found heartbreaking is the thought that there are people who die unremembered; not just forgotten… but they leave the world knowing no one was left to remember them.
I am surprised that 'Vengeful husband' never came up... The number of women I have encountered that fear a current or ex husband, switching hotel rooms, moving things around their room to make it easy to hide or escape, or difficult for people to get in through windows, or whatever else. There are a thousand reasons this could have been such a situation. Further, I am SHOCKED that 'forced to take the pills' was not mentioned. Considering how common this was at the time, and still is, to make a murder look like suicide. Force her to take the pills thinking she will die. She doesn't die, but is loopy, force her to take the rest, still doesn't die. Set her on fire...
Right!? I came here to see if I was the only one thinking it was crazy that this theory wasn't considered. I am not saying it is the case, but we had theories from spy to serial killers but not vengeful husband...
I think I've also read of somebody witnessing a man help her walk to the place where she was found, though I could be misremembering, or what I read could be wrong.
The killer must have walked there with the petrol/gasoline ready to be used. The sleeping pills to simulate a suicide and setting her on fire do not fit, though
Or vengeful ex girlfriend? Too many people still put these kinds of actions on men only, when we know women are just as capable of them and there are plenty of cases but 'men' are still targeted for the scrutiny.
I actually think theory number 5 is the most plausible out of all of them. Mental illness with psychosis, paranoia, or mania (or all 3) is enough to explain all of this. People severely underestimate how powerful and bizarre mental illness can be.
That maybe the case but that would show an erratic manner and not a calculating and strategic behavior that would be required to leave so little information. The case is extremely strange.
@@bighands69 actually a lot of paranoid people make sure they don't leave tracks behind, i had a family member that did pretty much the same, the only thing is that we knew her, now she is getting treated, but she would go to very far extents to clear her tracks
just like you said, almost certainly mental illness. as for people's rebuttals to that, mental illness and schizophrenia in particular are extremely complicated. patterns of behavior can be far different than what you see on tv. her behavior was somewhat organized but it was not grounded in reality. as for where she got the money? sadly, it was likely prostitution. many mentally ill women fall into prostitution as a result of not being able to hold down a traditional job. her behavior even points to this (ex. trying to invite men into her room)
This sounds like something one lady I know, who is a Paranoid Schizophrenic, would do. The point that sticks out to me in the video is how this woman moved the furniture out of her room or around her room. My friend sometimes thinks the furniture or the ceiling fan is a way for evil people to see and hear her. At one point, she truly thought a neighbor was talking to her through the air vents and threatening to rape and kill her. Using different names and moving around constantly fits with this mental illness. The patient is trying to outwit the imaginary people they are hiding from-- but never can, because those people are always with them, in their head. My friend "sneaks around on herself" sometimes-- which doesn't make sense as a sentence, unless you know someone like this. Again, she tries to outwit the people she thinks are talking to her-- but those people are always with her, so she never can. But she keeps trying to do things and/or communicate so "they" won't be able to find out, or she does things as "signals" to others that "they" are spying on her and threatening her. At one point, my friend hung bizarre, seemingly random, items on her wall and took photos of them with her phone. The items were things that meant something to her late husband-- movies he liked on DVDs, his sports cap with his favorite team, a blanket, etc. In her mind, the evil people who were watching her through "the black web" (what she thought "the dark web" is) would post those pictures to the "black web," because they were always taking videos of her, and people who knew her late husband would see them (somehow) and come to help her. She has tried tearing the ceiling fan out. She pulled wires out of her walls via her air vents. She hung towels around her rooms, etc. Also importantly... She refused to shower properly, and always showered in her underwear, because she thought people were always watching her. If someone thought they needed to keep imaginary "evil people" away in the early 1970s, then using garlic would make sense. (It supposedly works for vampires, after all.) That, and a fear of bathing because she thought she was being watched all the time, would explain the woman's smell, imo. In the worst phases of my friend's paranoid episodes, my friend cannot sleep or rest. Taking sleeping pills would be a logical prescription for this, in the early 1970s. No one gets ahold of that many sleeping pills who either isn't a doctor, a pharmacist, or a patient. The pills might have been hers (in which case she was prescribed them, which fits with the paranoia symptoms), or were given to her by someone else (which would mean her killer had access to the medications). I don't think she set herself on fire, although maybe that is possible, I'm admittedly no expert on that. During a manic/paranoid episode, I know it is possible for mentally ill people to not react normally to medications, including sleeping pills, and stay awake with doses that would knock out a large animal in moments. I've seen that happen. Is it possible she prepared the fuel etc to incinerate herself, took most of the pills over the course of a few minutes, then (when she felt then starting to kick in) quickly took the rest of the pills and triggered the blaze? Maybe. I don't know. But I do know all of her behaviors sound like things that my paranoid schizophrenic friend would do. I also know that paranoid schizophrenics tend to alienate friends and family. Their condition is very hard to deal with, and it's impossible to truly help them if they believe what they are experiencing is real, and refuse to seek help. I hope the DNA Doe Project can give her a name, before everyone who knew her, who might be able to explain her behavior, is passed on and dead.
I agree that the DNA Doe Project -- or a similar forensic DNA research group -- is the best bet for identifying her. I was peripherally involved with the case surrounding Lori Ruff aka Lori Erika Kennedy, the Texas woman with the mysterious past. Numerous people -- most prominently a law enforcement agent with US Social Security, who had extensive experience with finding & identifying people who had lived under stolen identities -- tried to bridge the gap between her life as Lori, & her birth identity. All of us failed, or were preempted by a forensic DNA researcher who was able to use her DNA to find her relatives, who immediately identified her from photos. (The story about this woman & how so many of us came to the wrong conclusions about her is a fascinating one, well told in the short eBook, "The Woman in the Strongbox" by Maureen O'Hagan.)
I don't think it was intentional self immolation. You have to remember she was under the influence of a lethal dose of barbiturates. She probably was trying to make a fire to keep warm but as her motor functions had been severely impaired ended up seeing herself ablaze
I accidentally took 4 sleeping pills instead of 4 low-dose tylenol that were nearly identical pills in size and shape. (I was young, disorganized and in a hurry. 🤷♀️) I quickly left my apartment, drove to work (about 5 minutes) and in under an hour my boss sent me home, suspecting I was ill. I only recall flashes of memory. Anyway, I ran my car into a roadway sign, somehow managed to get back to my apartment (no memory of this) and passed out in my parking space. (Parked askew) Eventually I woke up to my bf frantically banging on my car window. This was a result of taking just 4× the dose prescribed. 20 years later and I am so grateful that I didn't hurt or kill anyone on the road, driving around incoherent like that. I'm also extremely lucky I wasn't found by a stranger (in my car asleep) who probably would've called 911 and I'd have a DUI conviction to carry around forever, most likely. (Despite the accident element of the episode, and me having no prior criminal record / traffic violations, and the legal and legit prescription, you never know with DUI court situations.) I'd just barely turned 19 years old. *yeah, I should have gone to the ER to get checked out vs what I did, which was sleep it off without any medical professional's guidance or supervision. I was lucky and the 4× wasn't 10× to 15× like this story. I'm just saying even accounting for this lady having a tolerance to sleep meds, that's A LOT. She was probably on autopilot and had poor coordination. Not out of the realm of possibility that she may have set herself on fire by accident.
#5 was actually my first guess. Even today that particular mental illness is frequently untreated. The symptoms cause the victim to believe there is nothing wrong with them and also that doctors cannot be trusted. So even when somebody tries to get help for them, it doesn't always work so well.
I think it even helps explain why she was burned along with taking all those pills. If you are extremely paranoid about people finding you or your body, then the choice to do some self-immolation would make more sense as it would leave very little of you behind. I think of all the pills, and the alcohol, and the fact that she had to have taken some of the pills shortly before the immolation, and I imagine that this is a decision this woman is trying to work herself up to before the pills kill her.
I was thinking the same thing at first, but I feel like if this were the case there would be some traces or pieces left of a lighter or matchbox. Hopefully more tests are done to figure out the exact accelerates used.
I'm intrigued by the eerie similarities between this case and "Jennifer Fairgate" who allegedly committed suicide in an Oslo hotel in the mid 1990s. It would be nice to think that she might eventually be positively identified so that she can finally be given her name back. May she rest in peace, poor woman.
It’s nice to see how much love and care are given to people even if they are not known and even after they are gone. For example, they didn’t just burry her. They tried to give her a service that they think served her. It’s nice to see kindness.
Sad situation brings me down. So many people out there have died in mysterious ways never to be solved. Lonely souls forgotten and invisible. No matter who she was or what she did, her life mattered and she deserved a better end.
Maybe not so sad. If I could find a way to disappear and have my death be a mystery that would be ideal. I have been planning my own death and disappearance for many years now. I want to slip away, die, and have my body never be found. My greatest fear is dying in a bed. What a sad and pathetic way to go.
I knew a woman like this. She would travel from town to town constantly staying in motel rooms no more than a couple nights. she had physical problems but she would never go to the hospital or doctor. She told me that she was on the run because someone or something was chasing her...she also said she heard voices and satan was trying to get her. She had been going for years and her family didnt know where she was. I think that's what was going on with this woman plus people can build up an amazing resistance to pills if they take them for many years she probably took a bunch of pills and was able to make it out to that spot and then took some more she may have let herself on fire with a cigarette or something like that
Doing that in the 1970s would require a certain level of wealth that would not be such a casual wealth. No I am afraid there is something more to this story. It has all the hallmarks of something with careful planning and knowledge. First of all the amount of fuel it would require for a body to be burned to that degree would be quite large and not a trivial amount a single person could carry by them self. Then there is the fact this person seems to have no known family connections and is a loner.
@@bighands69 Unless her family was wealthy. In those days, having a mentally ill family member would be shameful and the family might not have come forward to claim her. Or, she had side effects to the pills and had a mental break as a result of taking sleeping meds. This happens sometimes, too. In those days, sleeping pills were prescribed to women for all kinds of maladies. They were given out like candy-- like Oxycodone when it first came out.
I have an uncle who suffered from paranoid schizophrenia and unmedicated bipolar disorder. This story, sad as it is, has screamed mental illness to me for the very start. He even was around her age at this time. The way that folks with severe mental illness experienced the world back then was a lot different than today.
Unfortunately it hasn’t changed for everyone, at least in the US. I recently knew a woman who may be living like this now. She was repeatedly failed by her family, friends, the psychiatry industry, and the state. Family or friends who educate themselves and advocate for a mentally ill person can save their life. Severely mentally ill people who don’t have that kind of support often end up homeless or trafficked. We have a long way to go.
A spy who thought it was a good idea to put furniture from her hotel room into the hallway? And not to bathe but instead try to cover her BO with garlic? Great powers of deduction there Sherlock!
@@antonystringfellow5152 I think their implying more so that if a spy would never standout than one that stands out so much almost no other spy would suspect her of being a spy. But I’m like you it’s very much not the thing to do. She was probably just mentally Ill and that is just sad and this woman died in fire after eating a ton of pills.
What if you were employed to stand out? And removed to eliminate being identified. What if you had mental issues and were made to believe that you were a spy, so that another person could move around unnoticed, odourless, quiet and unremarkable. 🤔
@@jonathanhughes8679 the pill method was used more than one's by the CIA the kill and the teeth could be evident of electrocution aka MK-ultra ect. my guess is she was from a Jewish family and maybe even a PWO survivor from WW2 3 rike and worked for the 🇺🇸 or Russia most likely the 🇺🇸
@Joe Scott I know this will get buried, but I do have a tiny bit of insight into this case. In the early 1970’s, it was very popular for women to have a collection of different wigs and falls. My mom brought part of her collection with her on her and my father’s honeymoon. People assumed he was with a different woman each night and would comment to him. My parents would just laugh it off. But, this was part of popular fashion back then.
Hey Joe, could you please make a video about Jacobo Grinberg? He was a Mexican neurophysiologist and psychologist. He dedicated himself to studying Mexican shamanism, oriental disciplines, meditation, astrology, and telepathy through the scientific method. But he mysteriously disappeared on December 8, 1994, without leaving a single trace. People say that it was secret agencies who kidnapped him, since he supposedly discovered telepathy. Would love a video on this topic!
There was an eyewitness who said they saw a man walking after her on the mountain. I do think she struggled with anxiety but that someone was chasing her. It may have just been an abusive spouse.
7:06 "A number on clothing items, with the labels cut out" The Somerton man, a man that died on the beach in Australia under mysterious circumstances, also had clothing with the labels cut out. Both have been suspected of being spies.
@@balazsvarga1823 Agree, my mom used to do that. On the other hand, her notes were written in German. She also used "Ljubljana", the original name of the town - East Germans tended to use original names rather than germanised ones (would be Laibach). Maybe she was from the GDR?
Also, when they located the book that the words "Tamam Shud" had been torn from, they were able to reconstruct some things he had written from indentations on the book. Similar to the Isdal Woman, one of these was a group of letters that many believed to be some sort of coded message or information. If they weren't spies or involved in some other secretive work, I wonder if writing in code like that is a possible symptom of mental illness?...
@@jkb2016 We have an idea of where she grew up via isotope analysis. Apparently she spent time in the French-German border region for some time as a child and teen. Which means she could have come from Alsace, the Rhineland Palatinate or Saarland. She was described as speaking German. Alsatian is a dialect of High German which can be hard to understand for people who speak a different dialect of German especially Low German. We have an idea of where she grew up via this isotope analysis but not where she lived after she left the area. This is where genetic genealogy plays a role. If we could analyze her DNA and compare it across Europe we could find any surviving family out there. Of course this all depends if she wasn’t adopted.
I like Joe for not only being fixated on stories happening in America, but even as an American also taking stories that have happened in Europe. I already was pretty well surprised when he talked about the Kaspar Hauser case. And I must admit, as a German living in Germany and doing German things, this makes me even a bigger fan of his channel. Wouldn't you, if he mentioned your homeland? FOREVER JOE SCOTT!!! (Tom's good too, but I'm more the Joe guy)
wow, that's so interesting! what a shock that must've been for you. I wish there was some little memorial plaque in place to educate folks not just on her case, but obviously to bring awareness to the missing persons and suicides in the area. There are a few memorials of that nature around where I live and I've always found them to be a sweet gesture, whilst also keeping cases in the public consciousness.
@@RealElongatedMuskrat Norwegians tend to prefer putting memorial plaques in places that are (or were) already inhabited, not out in pristine nature. There's actually a whole lot of plaques in the valley opposite to Isdalen (along the Tarlebø way), where there used to be farms that were abandoned around in the early 1900s. (Now the whole area from Ulriken to Rundemanen is protected, being the drainage basin of the city's water supply. It's allowed to hike there, but not to camp or bathe.)
I've been to Bergen and have to say it's the most Beautiful place I have ever seen And doing the return train ride from Olso to bergen and back will long live in my memory for how stunning it was
@@RealElongatedMuskrat I'm also from Bergen, but also never heard about this story, but maybe not weird as I was born here 21 years after this (im 30 now). It's always interesting to hear about things that happened in my city before I existed, because likely my parents arent gonna randomly sit down and tell me about random criminal cases from when they were teenagers lol.
my uncle suffers from paranoid schizophrenia. it´s no fun when they have a paranoid episode. Im glad he can get help in this situations. I can´t imagine when someone don´t get help. It´s horrible for this person. Very sad but I really think that could be true for her too.
The idea that I immediately had was that she was attempting to hide/flee from someone, who caught up with her in the town near where she died/was killed. Thanks for bringing this cold case to life for me ...
I’ve been fascinated by this case for a long time. Listened to ice valley each week. Did some research. You covered it really well and added details that most don’t bother to research. This is the best coverage if this tragic case I’ve ever seen, and I’m obsessed enough to have watched them all lol. Thankyou for covering this so well, and with the compassion that she deserves.
The concept of carbon monoxide poisoning did make me consider that something had affected her mentality. One of the side affects of carbon monoxide is memory loss. I assume the carbon monoxide was only from the fire, but it's possible that she was exposed to some other toxin or trigger that made her severely unaware or incoherent, which could explain why she ended up taking so many pills. Perhaps even a lack of sleep causing hallucinations, memory loss or severe distress. There have been people who take excess sleeping pills because they're desperate to sleep. If they were sleeping pills she took, that may have been why. The real confusing part though is the sole print on her knee? Unless it was a light impression from her boots being on her lap, then how did it get there?
That would make it even harder for her to walk alone to the place she died though. We are talking about an area that is really dangerous for inexperienced hikers, and getting their full of both an overdose of sleeping pills and carbon monoxide poisoning seems extremely unlikely. If they found her in an easy access area close to town it would make a whole lot of sense but the place suggest that either someone helped her commit suicide or killed her. There is something fishy about the case.
Just want to say Joe, I love how you always strive to remind people of the real points in these stories. No matter what else, she was a person who lived, breathed and no matter her issues was deserving of a more dignified end than being burned alive. People focus on the mysterious and salacious but forget the rest. Thanks for your take as always (I have read/watched a lot on this case but this is one of the best.)
Perhaps she was sick? End stage liver disease can make breath and sweat smell like garlic and rotten eggs. Liver cirrhosis (whether alcohol or drug induced or not) can cause brain dysfunction and confusion. That could have also impacted her behaviour.
Genuine constructive feedback: You probably want to give the content warning BEFORE showing the photo of the naked dead woman whose body was completely burned and maybe then give people a few seconds to minimize the window before you move on with the story.
@@TheNuclearGeek - forgive me for being overly critical and nitpicky but it seems like it's easier for people to be critical and nitpicky when hiding behind pseudo-scientific monikers like, "Nuclear Geek," who has created a channel with no videos and no content. Very "Isdal Woman" of you, touché Mr./Ms./Mrs./Dr./Sir/Madam Geek, touché indeed.
@@norryniven2886 What exactly are you being critical of? My name is my name because I've worked in the nuclear power industry my whole professional life. When I said it was genuine constructive feedback that's exactly what it was. I didn't say it to be mean. Also, you have your own channel too. Every account is a channel.
This video was very interesting, like all of his videos. The small touch of humour was ok to break the tension on the horrific death of the Isdal Woman. Love your channel, please don't stop your style.
The fact that she could take that many of those pills and still walk talk and breathe means she had a high tolerance. So her strange behavior could easily be explained by the fact that she was geeked up on these pills. And I don't know if they tested for speed or not, but it is not uncommon for people who take sedatives like that to also take uppers. So imagine someone taking Ambien and smoking meth. Strangest thing to me is the fact that she had money. Crazy people that have schizophrenia don't tend to have a lot of money. Also, drug addicts don't tend to have a lot of money. So, has anyone ever searched for medical records of any doctor who prescribed excessive amounts of this medication to a woman? Her death could be the result of her drug-induced insanity. I was a paramedic and we got calls for people who were smoking meth who thought midgets were living under their house and they wanted us to come get them out. And they always thought the FBI was staked out in the woods watching them. And one of them ran through town going door to door running into businesses screaming that someone was trying to kill him. I know that no one was trying to kill him because he said I was trying to kill him.
Hmm... Exactly what a killer might say... Joking aside, what if she got to the spot where she died, took the pills, waited an hour (perhaps drinking the liquor) then took 12 more pills before burning herself? I didn't understand why she had to have taken the pills elsewhere.
@A Carpenter’s Son I have finally met a kindred spirit! According to all the paranoid schizophrenics I worked with at the psych ward, I was the one telling the “voices” all about them. I was the one inserting thoughts and stealing thoughts from their heads. From your post, I finally know who was trying to kill them. We need to get together! I’ve never met anyone else who elicited this type of strong reactions from those suffering with paranoid schizophrenia.
Her money could be attributed to one of the theories that she was a sex worker, this means her travel and secrecy due to her paranoid schizophrenia or delusion would still be affordable and would explain the sightings with men.
I live just a short hike away from Isdalen in Bergen where the woman was found so it's funny that Joe is presenting this case to an international audience when it's this close to home.
I remember watching a documentary about this many years ago. The thing that really stayed with me from that one was a guy that was interviewed who was out walking his dog that very morning in the same area. According to him he walked past "this mysterious woman" who was with two men. No one in the entourage spoke a single word, and as they passed him he caught eye contact with her. He immediately felt she was trying to communicate something to her. Possibly that she was in danger. That memory had stayed with him throughout his life. I don't know what the documentary was called or if it holds any water, but it's a chilling recount.
If this video does well and you want to do more, I recommend the lady of the Dunes. And the possibility that she was in 'Jaws' as an extra wearing the same clothes she died in.
What immediately comes to my mind is those two tall European blond twins who left Ireland and came to England and there behaviour became insane. I’m wondering if the isdel woman had the same kind of temperament.
One detail left out is that a man who had been hiking in the area remembered seeing a woman that met her description walking in the opposite direction, followed closely by two men. He thought something seemed strange about the scene (she was dressed in light “city clothes, not hiking gear, the men wore unusual coats, and she looked like she wanted to say something to him, but didn’t), so he called the police, who told them it was probably nothing. Sounds like she was fleeing someone who was after her, and they caught up with her.
If I were to have a guess I'd say it sounds like suicide, she probably went out there fully intending to comit suicide, took the first load of pills hoping that would kill her, after they didnt work she took some more, then shortly after when they werent working she lit herself on fire as she was pretty much out of options at that point. Probably through mental illness, if she was paranoid maybe she just couldnt take it anymore feeling like being followed so decided to end it
Had it been suicide, all she would've had to do was to wait for the hypothermia to set in - a very peaceful death, as opposed to burning alive. Setting herself on fire while probably being unconcious from all the sleeping pills and then managing to dispose of the container of petroleum is highly improbable. On the other hand, a killer forcing her to take the pills, marching her to a desolate place, waiting for her to pass out to set her on fire and disposing of evidence afterwards - a murder like that wouldn't be anything too exceptional.
@@TTFerdinand Exactly. Depending on how quickly she metabolized the pills she might not have been conscious enough to actually start the fire. We have no clue if she started the fire herself or if there was someone with her that day so that does bring up a couple of holes in the suicide theory. Personally I suspect she was hiding from someone. She had a wedding ring on her if I recall correctly, a cheap one, which wouldn’t fit with someone wearing the latest in Italian designer fashion unless she recently fell on hard times. However the reason for the missing tags could be because she had sensitive skin and the tags made her itch. We have all these clues and yet a lot of people suspect spy. If I was investigating this case I would start with the isotope analysis. We know she was in her 30s when she died so finding census records of families with girls who were born in 1930, give or take 4 years, should be the starting point especially if they are from Nuremberg as well as Alsace, the Rhineland Palatinate and Saarland.
@@TTFerdinand If she was murdered it most certainly was an exceptional effort. Suicide seems unlikely but not improbable. The amount of fuel it would have required to burn a body like that would have been large and not easy to carry up the side of a mountain. Taking a large volume of a pharmaceutical in advance to climbing up the mountain does not seem likely either. I suspect without any real evidence that there was a certain amount of misdirection at play here. I would take the intelligence communities assessment with a large pinch of salt.
joe i have watched you for years and i kind of went through a stagnant period where i didn’t watch many videos, although i kept on supporting through patreon, and i can honestly say you have rekindled my love for the channel. the latest vids have been very good and i really like the content! keep it up!
I know Phenobarbital is the drug of choice used in assisted suicide. The fact she had that much of it in her body is astonishing as nowhere near that amount would be used at an exit clinic.
I never heard of this case. It is so sad. I hope that someday, perhaps there will be closure. Thank you Joe for your honest, gracious reporting if this.
If I ever die under mysterious circumstances and someone segues seamlessly from an explanation of my death to an advertisement I’m coming back full poltergeist.
As someone with a mother that suffers from severe mental illness, I gravitate toward that theory. I could 100% see my mother doing these things and taking too many pills either on purpose for some paranoid reason or just because she kept forgetting that she already took one. Mental illness can lead to all sorts of bizarre actions that could leave all sorts of mixed signals as to what really happened.
even tho i'm norwegian, i've never heard of this story, but i'm intrigued by this story, and grateful that joe brought it up. recommend the plaza woman if you're looking into another norwegian unsolved mystery
I think mental illness is the most probable explanation. My mother has a friend who suffers from paranoid schizophrenia, and she has a habit of changing her cell phone number often, or getting a whole new phone, because she believes her family members have gotten ahold of her number and all the information about her from it and that they have malicious intentions towards her. So I find the Isdal Woman's actions reasonable if she were suffering from a mental illness or some type of fugue state. Additionally the amount of luggage she had seems a bit cumbersome if she were a spy.
The mind can be its own worst enemy. We had a local fella who thought his mother had been replaced by an imposter. This condition has a name but I can't recall it.
@@robjones8733 quite true, and the man's illness you mention is Capgras syndrome, I believe. I recall a documentary I once watched about individuals with Capgras syndrome. One man could speak to his family over the phone and know it was them, but if he saw them in person he would believe they were imposters.
@@MysticMetaKnight While it is probable that she could have had a mental health breakdown I think that it is highly unlikely. The case seems to point to an event that was organized and it is not likely that a person that was suffering from such an episode would be capable of carrying out such an organized plan. One of the problems we have in the case is with certainty is establishing if every bit of evidence is actually genuine and not a plant or mistake. What we do know is that the amount of a fuel required to burn a body to such a degree is larger than what a person could carry by them self up a mountain, That she had consumed a large amounts of a pharmaceutical that would not have allowed her to travel up that mountain and that she had a certain level of wealth. Everything beyond that cannot be considered as reliable evidence.
@@bighands69 We don't know what the woman was capable of or if she even acted alone in her final actions, although at this point every theory has its merit. However, in general, mental illness does not preclude a person from having organizational skills or the ability to orchestrate complex actions. In assuming the Isdal woman had a mental illness I am also making the assumption that she would have been a high-functioning individual, meaning the level of impairment a mental illness has did not impede her from having close to, what is considered, a regular day-to-day life as a member of society. But being high-functioning doesn't make a person any less susceptible to the pitfalls of their illness/illnesses.
@@bighands69 "What we do know is that the amount of a fuel required to burn a body to such a degree is larger than what a person could carry by them self up a mountain, That she had consumed a large amounts of a pharmaceutical that would not have allowed her to travel up that mountain and that she had a certain level of wealth. Everything beyond that cannot be considered as reliable evidence." Indeed. We also know one more thing- countries do not usually set their spies on fire while they are still breathing. But organized crime groups do to slow down or prevent identification of the victim do so. Actually quite often. For example in cases of human trafficking, failed attempts at getting ransom in exchange for kidnapping someone or when a drug trafficking "mule" does something wrong. Why? It takes time to move entire network of illegal activities elsewhere and it's good to keep police busy with body identfication and with looking for a serial killer or trying to solve a mysterious crime while for example human trafficking or drug trafficking network moves its operation or production or distribution center elsewhere. So good question is- What organized crime investigations were open at that time in this location? Being a trouble maker at the hotel might also look as if....she was wanted to be noticed. People do it for example if they need an alibi later on. So interesting question is....what would she need an alibi for?
I have a theory. Women with chronic liver disease, what would make her breath smell like garlic, which she would try to hide with cheap perfume; and what could cause hair loss hance the wig. Her condition was caused by some last-stage disease or alcoholism. She decides to kill herself but plans a goodbye trip around Europe with her final destination being this beautiful mountain where she could die while looking at something nice. Once she arrives she takes the pills but she possibly changes her mind last minute. She staggers back the way she came from but because she can hardly walk from the overdose she trips and falls. Two things might happen. The can of hairspray explodes from the impact then possibly: If she was an alcoholic the white thermostat might have an alcoholic beverage in it, which would made her accident much worse and probably contributed to the complete evaporation of the thermostat. She might tried to hide her identity for religious reasons since suicide is a sin, and the cards in her notebook suggest she might have been quite religious and didn't want her family to know what happened.
Sounds plausable, but who lit the match that set the alchool or the hairspray can on fire? Because neither of them catch fire unless there is an open flame nearby, and for now, no trace of a camping fire has been found or mentioned.
There was a woman named Gloria Ramirez who came into an emergency room and smelled garlicky. People started fainting after a while around her. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Gloria_Ramirez?wprov=sfti1 One of the theories was that she drank a chemical in a homemade self treatment for pain that interacted with her blood chemistry (and possibly drugs taken for cancer). I could see the Isdal woman being a similar situation-a woman in pain, taking a drug, she wants to die, etc. The accelerant could have been in the thermos and tossed before she passed out. She could have also had a large quantity of high proof alcohol in that bottle, downed most of it and lit a cigarette, catching herself on fire.
@@Sofia-kr9fb Sorry but your theory would have to face up to the fact that a large amount of fuel would have been required to burn the body and getting that up the side of a mountain would be difficult. Also the pharmaceutical that was taken would have impaired physical and mental performance. This event was planned and not the actions of somebody who was irrational. So taking the substances to commit suicide and then changing that to Self-immolation on a whim is highly unlikely and very difficult to achieve in a short period of time.
I am born and raised in Bergen, and have spent most of my life here. For me, the biggest issue I have in regards to the suicide theory, boils down to the geography of Bergen. I am an avid hiker, and, as a matter of fact, just two days ago I hiked in the Isdalen area. Here is the thing: The Isdal woman checked out of her hotel at 10:30 am and then took a taxi to the train station. This would be, depending on traffic, about a 7-10 minute drive. We also know that witnesses reported seeing smoke from the Isdalen area around noon. Furthermore, the partially melted wristwatch found next to her body, had frozen at the time 12 : 32. We can therefore assume that time of death probably was some time between noon and 12:30 pm. This leaves between 75-90 minutes for the Isdal woman to get from the train station to the isolated forest patch where she was found, In order to make it from the train station to this part of Isdalen in this time frame you would have to walk _extremely_ fast. Basically you would have to run for 75-90 minutes straight with no breaks. Even for an active hiker like me, it would be difficult. However, considering all the stuff that was found at the crime scene, this would be, I would argue, pretty much an impossible feat, considering everything she would have to carry. If we, in addition, assume that she had swallowed dozens of sleeping pills before she arrived at the spot where she died,, it would be even more unlikely. It is possible, in theory, that she could have taken another taxi, or a bus, for part of the stretch, but even if you get off at the closest current bus stop to Isdalen, you would still need to hike at a brisk pace for 45 - 50 minutes to get to the forest patch where the body was ultimately found. However, no taxi drivers, bus drivers or bus passengers, observed the Isdal women in the relevant time frame. The only possibility left is therefore that she must have been driven in a private car for most of the stretch. Which means that there must have been other people with her pretty much up until her death.
I think the Isdal Woman was on the run from someone or something. And the fact that she ended up dead... It seems like a lot of trouble to go through to unalive yourself.
Loved that video about Peter Bergman so I know I’m going to love this one! These videos are so good. I sometimes go into a rabbit hole after watching them and start looking into their lives and what evidence we have after watching them. Thanks so much Joe!
That's so sad...but the last bits of information (that there is an organization like the DNA Doe Project out there...and that they not only gave her a decent burial but endeavored to give her the type of ceremony & service she might have wanted) made me feel hopeful, in the possibility of closure for her case and others...and hope in humanity in general.
I don’t believe someone could take that much medication at once without vomiting them up. I think she’d have to take a first batch, followed a little later by more, and so on. But she’d become so wobbly, she couldn’t manage to take anywhere near all of them because she’d be unconscious. Just an opinion. Smuggler?
I always wonder about age estimates based on eye witnesses, as a 24 year old who gets shouted at semi regularly by shop keepers who think I'm a 15-16 year old skipping school. I just have chronic baby face when I'm not wearing makeup and I'm 5ft tall so I will probably be getting ID'd for a long time. I'm just used to it now, it's a constant stream of "is your mom home?" 😭. Since people have an idea in their heads of what someone in their mid 20s looks like, I don't think they'd match that up with me if I went missing and someone had indeed seen me on the street. I know a gal who's 32 and has scoliosis so she's 4ft 11, a few days ago a delivery driver asked her "is your mummy home?" when she answered her own front door.
Same! That always confuses me, because you can't really know a stranger's age just by looking at them?? I mean I guess some people are pretty good at guessing, but I don't see why that should be taken as fact in any kind of police investigation.
Yeah, eyewitness age estimates are really unreliable, particularly for women. Most of the developed world has a deeply skewed idea of what women "should" look like at certain ages. Most of the women in my family look older than our age up until we're in our mid to late 20s, then start looking younger than our age. Someone tried to register me to vote when I was 12 because I "looked like a college student", and the first time I was asked for ID during an alcohol purchase came when I was nearly 30. I'm approaching 40 now and have silver in my dark hair, and I still get mistaken for a college student if I go out without makeup. My grandmother could pass for 20 years younger than her real age, later in life. Some people have those kinds of faces. Maybe the Isdal Woman is one. Heck, she even kinda looks like one of my aunts.
Can relate. I think the last time someone asked me what I was doing out of school, I already had a few grey hairs. I just pretend I'm a 500-year-old vampire lmao
Heh. I know the feeling. I don't really have a baby face, but I'm only 4'10", so people always think I'm way younger than I really am. Next birthday I'm turning 40, but not that many years ago some salesman or religious guys rang the doorbell to our apartment, and I seriously got asked (in the most condescending tone as possible): "Is your mummy or daddy at home?" My answer (said in a really dark voice): "No." I then slammed the door closed. At least I have a dark voice, so I get to see people's shocked looks when I open my mouth. :) Eye witnesses would probably describe me as a kid. (Edited to write out a better English translation.)
I used to take frequent walks in the area where she was killed. The mountains around Bergen are beautiful when the weather is nice, but when it rains (most of the time) or after darkness they become incredibly creepy. Once I was walking in those woods at dusk and saw a guy walking in the opposite direction towards me. It freaked the hell out of me because I immediately remembered what happened to the Isdal woman. It gave me an idea of how she felt when she realised she was being followed. There's literally nowhere to hide so you KNOW you're going to be dead the second you realise you're being followed. The only way to survive is to outrun your followers.
I am going to say something and please do not be offended by what I am about to say. Women should not be out on their own even in the countryside. Most men that they meet are good people that would not harm anybody and would offer assistance but there is a small subsection of men about 1% that are psychopaths' and it is they who maybe predators. That is not to say a women cannot go out on her own but she needs to understand these things. But I would also offer the same types of advice for many men. Going out after dark into remote places that other humans may frequent should only be done by certain men. Apart from humans certain environments have wild animals as well.
@@frndusbambulius1709 Do not get offended. I am only telling you as it is and you know what I am saying is the truth. In your own words "It freaked the hell out of me" and that is your own instincts telling you of your situation. There are many things that people should not do such as swimming on their own, hunting in the wilderness on their own and several other things as well. If you are in a very remote place meaning nobody is within your vicinity for many miles then you need to really know what you are doing. If you are in a place that is popular with people then you need to understand how vulnerable you can be on your own. A woman is perfectly free to walk at night on her own through any part of town but has to be realistic that she is vulnerable. There is no point a person being in the right legally and morally when they are dead or badly injured. There are things I could inform you of that may genuinely freak you out and put far more context on things. It does not matter by the way if you are in Europe, north America, africa or Asia.
I would love to see you do a video on amusia. The condition that some people have that makes it so they cannot detect pitch. You touched on it in a previous video but I forgot to suggest it then. I learned about the condition in a book called The Singing Neanderthals which seeks to find the origins of language and music. Good read but a little over my head at times. Love your channel!! Sorry for the off topic comment but I wanted to suggest it.
I have a hypothesis, how about if you have a mental illness, it grooms you for "looking at the silver lining", optimism bias, restricting the contents of your consciousness, and the deep desire to go on living; however if you do not have a mental illness and are logic heavy it propels you towards not wanting to breed and possibly even cut short your life to avoid the inevitable entropy of everything. Some folks develop the courage to get over the immense pull of the survival instinct.
Hi Joe ! Could you make a New Year Special where you look back on the past year and sum up all the new science discoveries made and where they might lead us to?
Peter Bergmann's wish was to remain anonymous. It should be respected and left alone. The isdal woman case on the other hand looks extremely suspicious like murder. I hope she is identified and her case given some closure. 🙏🏻
13:24 Joe, a cursory Wikipedia search tells you that prostitution is, and was in 1970, if not completely legal then at least decriminalised in West Germany, France, Italy and Norway.
I've come to love this channel because your explanations of things always help ground me a bit lmao I can be quick to fall for the sensationalized theories of things but the way you explain it and just lay out the facts really helps me see the more mundane explanations for things. I still find these cases incredibly interesting and I dont completely throw out the more sensational theories but this channel does help me see that they are often not the most likely answers, even when others make it seem that way
"They say she may have been 45, but that would have contradicted witness reports saying she appeared to be in her early 30s... maybe she used a lot of moisturizer?" Me, a 35-year-old who gets asked which high school she goes to all the damn time: Naw, it's the blood sacrifices. Really helps with that youthful glow.
2:32 „I suppose I should do a content warning here.“ Says it after having shown the body already - twice. I don't really mind but it would make more sense the other way round.
I think, perhaps the only way to make someone take 50 pills would be to basically waterboard them with the pills. This would leave ligature marks. Ligature marks were probably burned away. But owing to the fact that she was still conscious while on fire (ugh, horrible), the device used to restrain her and force the pills, should have been nearby. Or, the assailant was incredibly skilled in the art of restraint. Meaning, she did it to herself, or someone super skilled and super shady did it to her. Which, now having written this, is basically the same conclusion everyone else has come up with. But who auto-immolates? That would be an EXTREMELY rare form of suicide. Like, set herself on fire hoping she would fall asleep before she felt it? Why one stocking? That bothered me. She did not appear to be prepared to be where she was, but had to have been there for a long while, IF she rode the gondola, or whatever. How did she get there, if not helped? The burning conceals evidence of exposure, unfortunately. Not sure where I'm going with this, but, just a few observations I guess.
If you look at the 1972 murder of the Thunestvedt teenager (from Bergen) in Strasbourg. She was strangled and burnt. The magistrate said it was a staged murder - meaning a middle-aged white man with knowledge of police procedures. Then if you reflect that back to the Isdal Woman murder it changes your perspective. What would be the chances that a girl whose mother was an Isdal Woman witness was also severely burnt - but by a killer this time. Did she see someone in Strasbourg in 1972 who she had seen in Bergen in October 1970 while meeting her mother at the hotel?
@Taylor Smith The case has all the hallmarks of careful planning and misdirection. Most of the evidence of this case has to be taken with caution. Even the evidence that was in the station such as the suitcases have to treated carefully. One of the first questions that people need to take into account is the amount of fuel it would require for a body to be burned to that degree especially up the side of a mountain.
@@davidmorgan156 "The magistrate said it was a staged murder - meaning a middle-aged white man" I am sorry but being staged does not mean it was a man and it does not really give any indications to intent either or even that he person/s understands police procedures.
This woman clearly had access to significant resources, and had training or at least significant experience in hiding her identity and evading discovery. This suggests the following possibilities: a spy with a burn notice, or an estranged heiress from a very wealthy and publicity shy family. Either way, it sounds like whomever she was running from finally caught up to her.
Fjel is mountain in norwegian, bokmål norsk at least. But I'm sure the name Bergen still somehow comes from mountain. My norwegian is based on misunderstanding swedish as a finnish guy so take that with a grain of salt
Basically hills XD XD But it kinda sells it I guess. Even as a norwegian, flying in to Bergen is a sight to behold. The highest mountain in Norway is half the height of mont blanc in the alps (4808m vs 2469m). We have alot of mountains, yet this is not the himalayas XD
ilarious Berg in norwegian (and scandinavian in general) means any formation of rocks. Although we would, as you said, refer to a mountain as a fjell. But the name comes from Bjørgvin which means the green plain between the mountains 😊
Ohh Hiked up Ulriken every week when working in Bergen. Really nice and only took like 45 min. Had a beer or coffee at the top and enjoyed the view of the City. Even though it is an amazing view it is not even remotely one of Norways nicest! They are in completely different league than the rest of us!😂 Remember reading about this case!
I like joe the most out of literally dozens of other youtubers doing the same kind of content , because he has a down to earth attitude and is non-dogmatic ..
2:08 is that picture he showed real? If so, how did he get away with it? I have seen RUclips take down videos for much less than a charred corpse. I don't mean to hold this against him, but damn son if that isn't brutal.
What if her multiple identities were literal? Meaning: Did she suffer from what we now refer to as "DID?" If you've ever known someone who has this, there are a huge number of factors of this story that could be explained, this way. Even some of the more "mundane" details, like a high tolerance to sleeping pills, potentially being a prostitute, or random markings in a notebook who's coding means nothing to anyone but those in her head. If she was going through a time when a lot of "switching" was occurring, this would be disorienting, and perhaps could even make her suicidal. They can do extreme things - even lighting oneself on fire would not be so terribly shocking. It is probably an "unsatisfying answer," meaning that it (1) fits nearly every aspect, and (2) is completely unprovable without contemporary witnesses to her behavior. However, "back in the day," such people were often institutionalized, and she may have just been doing her best for as long as she could to avoid that exact fate. Further, DID is also an "intelligent person's disorder." You have to have a pretty high mental capacity (memory and IQ) to end up that way. It is a sort of "coping mechanism," but not all people who are abused as children end up with DID. Those that do are often considered "smart" or even "gifted" until the disorder becomes disabling. A loved one in my life has DID and is extraordinarily mistrusting of places that have "rooms." Hospitals. Hotels. Even houses. "Bad things happen in rooms," she tells me. I can easily see even the quirks of pushing furniture far away as part of that kind of reaction. Given how DID comes to exist some 90% of the time, I can definitely hear someone with this issue saying, "Bad things happen on furniture." Food for thought.
DID or multiple personality disorder would back up my theory that she was a sex slave. If she was, developing DID as the result of severe trauma fits in with the trafficking idea
@@QueenEra33 True. There's a tendency of people abused as children to seek other abusive relationships throughout their lives ("revictimization" is the word that comes to mind, but I think there's actually a different term for it that escapes me at the moment). "I'm broken, therefore only worthy of other broken people." And this could be a situation that multiple theories cross: If there was a serial killer about, then perhaps this is exactly the type of person she would be attracted to, as well, if she had DID. It's definitely a super-interesting mystery, and I'm guessing it hasn't been cracked because it is a combo. Severe mental illness (psychotic episodes, or DID switching, or something of that nature) + some X factor makes it impossible to get to "ground truth."
@@QueenEra33 I am sorry by now such theory backs up she was a sex slave. You have just imagined that and it appeases your predisposition to such ideas.
I agree with those posting that they believe mental health was a factor in this poor woman's death. Moving furniture in a hotel room, especially moving things into the hall really speaks to a clinical level of paranoia. If you are hiding and don't want to be noticed this is not a smart thing to do. Joe's comment about thinking things might be bugged sounded spot on to me, though maybe not in the way he meant. I've seen people with delusions throwing stuff out of their rooms to get rid of bugs or cameras many times. Taking so many more pills than necessary . . . It happens. People who are manic aren't usually thinking very clearly, for example. Self immolation is very rare - I've heard of this as either a political gesture or as a political gesture with comorbid schizophrenia. Going so far beyond lethal means suggests to me that this is a person with multiple attempts in the past who is trying to make sure that they aren't stopped, but I don't know if that would have been the same in the 1960s. Suicide was seen differently then and my experiences starting in the 2000s in a setting where there was a strong prevention program and people were at high risk may not be applicable to this case. But still . . . I can't help feeling that this was someone who wanted to be sure that nobody would find her and interrupt her attempt.
I would opt for either theory 1 or 5, although you have argued very well for each of the 5 theories, I think that only those 2 would be able to explain all the incosistencies found. There must have been either complex interests we dont know of and cant understand (which would be the case if she was a spy, not necessarily of the Soviet Union, spying is common) or she must have had a mind which seems very irrationally to others (in case of schizophrenia) and we therefore struggle to understand her behaviour. Either way, I liked your approach, your openess and empathy for the victim, no matter what happened.
There was a story on netflix about a woman who committed suicide in a hotel room, also in Norway, also unidentified. Her clothes had tags removed. apparently, that is a spy thing. although the theory of the mental problem also sounds legit at this point.
Yeah. Halfway through the words "paranoid schizophrenia" are hard to shake. Trying very hard to hide their identity, behaving weirdly, throwing out furniture in hotels, etc. So I agree with that theory. The unexplained parts are why the fire, and why she hasn't been reported as missing and identified.
Every time I see an in-game shout-out for Brilliant, I reflect on the fact we all use math we claim to not understand; we just do it in everyday situations that we don't even think about.
The fact you could identify a Soviet lady spy by the perfume they wore is so outlandish and camp that I love it.
Right?!
this is exactly what i was thinking, that's so funny to me and makes me wonder how common this type of identification is
It could be because in Soviet Union they had this perfume called "Red Moscow" and it was almost the same as Chanel no 5. They had almost exactly the same formula because both originated from very old pre-soviet times, there is an interesting history about that.. Anyway so they just had this perfume available, and since it was very very close to the Chanel they could use it easily without any suspicions so everyone would just think they wear Chanel.
If anyone is interested whether today's Chanel no.5 is close to the modern Red Moscow - the answer is no, seems like the formula already changed a few times. They are completely different. But you can still say that they are indeed somewhat belong to the same family/type of the perfume..
Camp?
This is not ridiculous at all. These services are well prepared and have naturally thought hard about how they cover their people. Such seemingly simple things can have a significant impact on getting such jobs done. "Camouflage is everything!". If you study history you can see that of course such methods were used. They weren't stupid back then either.
Glad to see someone point out that, "this is still another human being at the end of the day."... a class act added to a story that has long since dehumanized the Jane.... no matter her profession... awesome job, per usual, Joe and entertaining as always!
My thoughts exactly. Always a pleasure to watch.
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Exactly. She probably has distant nieces and nephews out there who heard from their parents and grandparents about an aunt who stopped contacting them sometime around 1970. We have isotope analysis results but now we need a DNA analysis conducted. Find a blood relative and you’ll identify her.
As someone with a degree in psychology, I think the fifth theory is very plausible. She might have some form of paranoia and or psychosis. This would explain almost everything. She might have thought she was followed, so she traveled all the time, used different wigs and names. We can also find religious symbols on her belongings, it is common for psychotic people to be religious. Her strange odor could mean lacking hygiene, wich is common in psychosis or cold even have to do with occult protection spells made from garlic she used. Strange behaviours like moving furnitures around and changing rooms also hint to mental illness. A spy wouldn’t do that, as it attracts quite a lot of attention. She might have had weird beliefs and rituals corresponding to that. Also her death, which probably was a suicide, fits to psychosis. Schizophrenic people offen have depression and 10% commit suicide. And this often takes place in a very violent or weird manner. Besides taking the sleeping pills (what would have been enough to kill her) she lit herself on fire which must have been extremely painful. Maybe she thought she had to do it for some reason.
There is someone in my immediate family who suffers from chronic psychosis and this video reminded me of them before that theory was even mentioned. He doubts her ability to travel up the mountain with the pills in her system but I wonder if toxicology would have detected commonly abused stimulants at the time. I sincerely doubt that was her first time abusing medication.
This is exactly what I was thinking.
I tend to agree with your speculation in general, but I don't think the Isdahl Woman intended suicide when she stashed her belongings in the storage locker. The locker itself and the items in it, esp money and new shoes, all seem like she planned to return. (What would 500 deutschmarks have bought her back then?) Nothing ceremonial or symbolic seems to have been done to them. I lean toward murder committed by an amateur, and I've seen mentally ill people get themselves into bad situations with bad people.
But what if her mental illness was multiple-personalities, and one of them was suicidal, took over after the locker stash, and eventually got its way? Can that happen? Would it explain the various names and wigs? Having apparently been attractive, could she have been sexually abused when younger and developed different personalities to cope with it?
BTW, I've been a sex worker, and she wasn't one, at least not toward the end. Sex workers have to stay fastidiously clean, and even if a client wants a stinky girl, that will be only for him. If her murderer was her stink-loving sugar-daddy, she wouldn't be seen talking to "men". Unlikely she had a pimp; at least these days in most of the world, nearly all high-end sex workers are fully independent, or work at brothels. Pimps are generally street-level.
As with "Peter Bergmann" case, I'm surprised that biometric algorithms haven't matched her to a missing person case.
@@VaraLaFeyidk the sex workers I've seen out on the street do not look like they smell good or are clean...
@@furball192 Streetwalkers in the Western world, meaning those who deliberately walk the streets to attract clients, almost always have drug problems and may be homeless as well. But even so, they have to keep themselves clean so they don't smell bad. (I was never a streetwalker; I got clients through online profiles or chance meetings, and I've never been a druggie.) In Vegas I can imagine streetwalkers on "the big Strip" who are an exception to the rule, and maybe also on west Fremont (which was the original Strip), but the rest of the metro is the same as anywhere else. And streetwalkers in the Orient might be a different case too, for all I know.
theory 5 is honestly the first thing I thought of, the tragic last days of the Isdal womans life sound very much like a bipolar manic episode with psychotic features.
scratching off labels on your meds, wearing wigs to "avoid detection", cutting tags out of clothing, going from country to country, constantly switching hotel rooms and moving furniture, behaving erratically, hooking up and going out with random guys, smelling like b/o because showering isnt a priority when you think someone's after you, swallowing a bunch of sleeping pills because you cant take it anymore, deciding to go camping on a whim, and accidently setting yourself on fire in your altered state
on another note: it kinda frustrates me how everyone just defaults to paranoid schizophrenia whenever paranoia is brought up. other mental illnesses can cause paranoia and psychosis, and both of those things can appear by themselves :/
I agree. And maybe nobody was looking for her because she’s estranged and didn’t want to be found.
Well don't forget most the pills were digested and only a small amount were still found whole - and at such a radical dosage, the chances of you having any motor skills whatsoever are zero. I suppose she could've been out there for some time but still, it's a miracle she was even still alive at that point
Do you wear your clothes with the tags on?
It does, though to my mind the missing tags are totally cancelled out by the eczema cream. Clothing tags can be a nightmare for people with eczema.
you can even get a semi like state of this by steroids too, Immune system ones I know when I had 500 grams i think it was? it was a high dose I saw things, heard things and pretty much went crazy. so it also doesn't need to be a mental illness it can be medication
Joe, I am 67 years old and do not write fan letters BUT ...I want to tell you that I enjoy your personality and how you present your stories. You have a great way of telling them and you make me smile. So thank you! I wish the best for you and your family.
Well said!
My theory is this: she was a mentally ill German woman who travelled a lot, was paranoid about being followed, was misdiagnosed (which is why she got the pills) and was, by that point, losing her sanity. She walked up into the mountains, took the pills, drank the alcohol, and passed out with a lit cigarette in her mouth. It fell on her sweater, and she died of a combination of the booze, pills, and hypothermia. The lit cigarette, meanwhile, began the "wick effect" (previously known as Spontaneous Human Combustion.) Over the next few days, the body slowly burned from the midsection outward (which is why the hat and boots survived.) Her family was used to her running off, so they never bothered to report her missing.
This is exactly what I was thinking. I work with people with severe mental illness and the strange behavior and bad smell line up perfectly with schizophrenia. I have met many beautiful women in my work who don't shower but still like to shop and go out for dinner
This is the theory that most makes sense to me, all the others seem a bit of a stretch.
I concur. Not murdered, but a horrific suicide.
The people of DNA Doe Project can verify that there are people out there who have been unidentified for years....yet, their family, for various reasons, never really looked for them or reported them missing. Then, the DNA people come to their door and say, "hey, we think we found your daughter (sister, cousin) deceased" The family then says, "Oh! We just thought she didn't want to hang around with us!" It happens. Not everyone actively pursues missing family members.
That’s so sad 😢
@@mitchsargent4233 not always sad. My uncle has been missing for about 30 years. He hated his siblings and treated them horribly. He always said he couldn’t wait until he could get rid of them. My mom and her siblings have given up on looking for him. Sometimes you just reap what you sow :/
@@mayravazquez5025You should find him, maybe he’s rich
The Isdal woman is fascinating and tragic. I have a background in mental health and theory #5 is plausible for a few reasons.
1. Her strange odor.
Personal hygiene is often an issue for those struggling with depression, bipolar, schizophrenia and other mental disorders. The Isdal woman's body odor could indicate that she was not taking care of her hygiene properly due to some kind of mental illness.
2. Her paranoia.
Isdal woman's many identities and constant movements could suggest that she believed she was being stalked. Perhaps experiencing gangstalking, a delusional disorder that causes sufferers to believe that they are constantly being harrassed and stalked by ordinary people around them and that these people aren't ordinary at all but are agents of the State or aliens or the New World Order. People who claim to be victims of gangstalking have been known to abandon their lives and their families and friends to go into hiding, moving frequently.
3. Her death.
The Isdal woman probably took her own life and that too indicates that she may have been struggling with mental health issues.
4. Spy or Schizophrenia?
The behavior that made people think Isdal woman was a spy would also fit someone who was delusional but functional enough to appear somewhat normal to those around her. Moving furniture around, moving location frequently and keeping a log in a code could indicate she was a spy but more likely indicates she was having a delusional episode and thought she needed to evade something or someone.
Perhaps being a spy was part of her delusions?
I agree with you on this
I still struggle to take showers most days and the worst of my issues are way behind me
Yep, was the angle I was thinking as soon as he mentioned odd behaviour like switching rooms a lot. If I was a betting man, that's what I'd go with.
It all make sense, actually.
It actually has a lot of parallels with the Elisa Lam case (paranoia, erratic behavioir in the hotel and switching rooms, for example) so I think this makes the most sense.
Something that I’ve always found heartbreaking is the thought that there are people who die unremembered; not just forgotten… but they leave the world knowing no one was left to remember them.
No, there's always someone
I am surprised that 'Vengeful husband' never came up... The number of women I have encountered that fear a current or ex husband, switching hotel rooms, moving things around their room to make it easy to hide or escape, or difficult for people to get in through windows, or whatever else. There are a thousand reasons this could have been such a situation.
Further, I am SHOCKED that 'forced to take the pills' was not mentioned. Considering how common this was at the time, and still is, to make a murder look like suicide.
Force her to take the pills thinking she will die. She doesn't die, but is loopy, force her to take the rest, still doesn't die. Set her on fire...
Right!? I came here to see if I was the only one thinking it was crazy that this theory wasn't considered. I am not saying it is the case, but we had theories from spy to serial killers but not vengeful husband...
I think I've also read of somebody witnessing a man help her walk to the place where she was found, though I could be misremembering, or what I read could be wrong.
Or she lit herself on fire afterwards so it wouldn’t be ruled intentional/accidental overdose
The killer must have walked there with the petrol/gasoline ready to be used.
The sleeping pills to simulate a suicide and setting her on fire do not fit, though
Or vengeful ex girlfriend? Too many people still put these kinds of actions on men only, when we know women are just as capable of them and there are plenty of cases but 'men' are still targeted for the scrutiny.
I actually think theory number 5 is the most plausible out of all of them. Mental illness with psychosis, paranoia, or mania (or all 3) is enough to explain all of this. People severely underestimate how powerful and bizarre mental illness can be.
That maybe the case but that would show an erratic manner and not a calculating and strategic behavior that would be required to leave so little information.
The case is extremely strange.
@@bighands69 thats not necessarily true.
@@bighands69 actually a lot of paranoid people make sure they don't leave tracks behind, i had a family member that did pretty much the same, the only thing is that we knew her, now she is getting treated, but she would go to very far extents to clear her tracks
No, she swallowed a mountain of sleeping pills and set herself on FIRE ? . 😵💫 , so much money good clothing and indenties … no
just like you said, almost certainly mental illness. as for people's rebuttals to that, mental illness and schizophrenia in particular are extremely complicated. patterns of behavior can be far different than what you see on tv. her behavior was somewhat organized but it was not grounded in reality. as for where she got the money? sadly, it was likely prostitution. many mentally ill women fall into prostitution as a result of not being able to hold down a traditional job. her behavior even points to this (ex. trying to invite men into her room)
This sounds like something one lady I know, who is a Paranoid Schizophrenic, would do. The point that sticks out to me in the video is how this woman moved the furniture out of her room or around her room. My friend sometimes thinks the furniture or the ceiling fan is a way for evil people to see and hear her. At one point, she truly thought a neighbor was talking to her through the air vents and threatening to rape and kill her.
Using different names and moving around constantly fits with this mental illness. The patient is trying to outwit the imaginary people they are hiding from-- but never can, because those people are always with them, in their head.
My friend "sneaks around on herself" sometimes-- which doesn't make sense as a sentence, unless you know someone like this. Again, she tries to outwit the people she thinks are talking to her-- but those people are always with her, so she never can. But she keeps trying to do things and/or communicate so "they" won't be able to find out, or she does things as "signals" to others that "they" are spying on her and threatening her.
At one point, my friend hung bizarre, seemingly random, items on her wall and took photos of them with her phone. The items were things that meant something to her late husband-- movies he liked on DVDs, his sports cap with his favorite team, a blanket, etc. In her mind, the evil people who were watching her through "the black web" (what she thought "the dark web" is) would post those pictures to the "black web," because they were always taking videos of her, and people who knew her late husband would see them (somehow) and come to help her.
She has tried tearing the ceiling fan out. She pulled wires out of her walls via her air vents. She hung towels around her rooms, etc.
Also importantly... She refused to shower properly, and always showered in her underwear, because she thought people were always watching her.
If someone thought they needed to keep imaginary "evil people" away in the early 1970s, then using garlic would make sense. (It supposedly works for vampires, after all.) That, and a fear of bathing because she thought she was being watched all the time, would explain the woman's smell, imo.
In the worst phases of my friend's paranoid episodes, my friend cannot sleep or rest. Taking sleeping pills would be a logical prescription for this, in the early 1970s.
No one gets ahold of that many sleeping pills who either isn't a doctor, a pharmacist, or a patient. The pills might have been hers (in which case she was prescribed them, which fits with the paranoia symptoms), or were given to her by someone else (which would mean her killer had access to the medications).
I don't think she set herself on fire, although maybe that is possible, I'm admittedly no expert on that. During a manic/paranoid episode, I know it is possible for mentally ill people to not react normally to medications, including sleeping pills, and stay awake with doses that would knock out a large animal in moments. I've seen that happen.
Is it possible she prepared the fuel etc to incinerate herself, took most of the pills over the course of a few minutes, then (when she felt then starting to kick in) quickly took the rest of the pills and triggered the blaze? Maybe. I don't know.
But I do know all of her behaviors sound like things that my paranoid schizophrenic friend would do. I also know that paranoid schizophrenics tend to alienate friends and family. Their condition is very hard to deal with, and it's impossible to truly help them if they believe what they are experiencing is real, and refuse to seek help.
I hope the DNA Doe Project can give her a name, before everyone who knew her, who might be able to explain her behavior, is passed on and dead.
self immolation is a thing, but whoa, sus for sure
I agree that the DNA Doe Project -- or a similar forensic DNA research group -- is the best bet for identifying her.
I was peripherally involved with the case surrounding Lori Ruff aka Lori Erika Kennedy, the Texas woman with the mysterious past. Numerous people -- most prominently a law enforcement agent with US Social Security, who had extensive experience with finding & identifying people who had lived under stolen identities -- tried to bridge the gap between her life as Lori, & her birth identity. All of us failed, or were preempted by a forensic DNA researcher who was able to use her DNA to find her relatives, who immediately identified her from photos. (The story about this woman & how so many of us came to the wrong conclusions about her is a fascinating one, well told in the short eBook, "The Woman in the Strongbox" by Maureen O'Hagan.)
Extremely sad thing to read. I hope your friend is doing ok.
I don't think it was intentional self immolation. You have to remember she was under the influence of a lethal dose of barbiturates. She probably was trying to make a fire to keep warm but as her motor functions had been severely impaired ended up seeing herself ablaze
I accidentally took 4 sleeping pills instead of 4 low-dose tylenol that were nearly identical pills in size and shape. (I was young, disorganized and in a hurry. 🤷♀️) I quickly left my apartment, drove to work (about 5 minutes) and in under an hour my boss sent me home, suspecting I was ill. I only recall flashes of memory. Anyway, I ran my car into a roadway sign, somehow managed to get back to my apartment (no memory of this) and passed out in my parking space. (Parked askew) Eventually I woke up to my bf frantically banging on my car window. This was a result of taking just 4× the dose prescribed.
20 years later and I am so grateful that I didn't hurt or kill anyone on the road, driving around incoherent like that. I'm also extremely lucky I wasn't found by a stranger (in my car asleep) who probably would've called 911 and I'd have a DUI conviction to carry around forever, most likely. (Despite the accident element of the episode, and me having no prior criminal record / traffic violations, and the legal and legit prescription, you never know with DUI court situations.) I'd just barely turned 19 years old.
*yeah, I should have gone to the ER to get checked out vs what I did, which was sleep it off without any medical professional's guidance or supervision. I was lucky and the 4× wasn't 10× to 15× like this story. I'm just saying even accounting for this lady having a tolerance to sleep meds, that's A LOT. She was probably on autopilot and had poor coordination. Not out of the realm of possibility that she may have set herself on fire by accident.
#5 was actually my first guess. Even today that particular mental illness is frequently untreated. The symptoms cause the victim to believe there is nothing wrong with them and also that doctors cannot be trusted. So even when somebody tries to get help for them, it doesn't always work so well.
I think it even helps explain why she was burned along with taking all those pills. If you are extremely paranoid about people finding you or your body, then the choice to do some self-immolation would make more sense as it would leave very little of you behind. I think of all the pills, and the alcohol, and the fact that she had to have taken some of the pills shortly before the immolation, and I imagine that this is a decision this woman is trying to work herself up to before the pills kill her.
"Doctors can't be trusted"
Been hearing a lot of that this past year and a half.
I was thinking the same thing at first, but I feel like if this were the case there would be some traces or pieces left of a lighter or matchbox. Hopefully more tests are done to figure out the exact accelerates used.
@@PineappleLiar The pills may indeed be a form of suicide. The burning may have been an unforseen accident though.
Mine too. It's actually kinda obvious.
I'm intrigued by the eerie similarities between this case and "Jennifer Fairgate" who allegedly committed suicide in an Oslo hotel in the mid 1990s.
It would be nice to think that she might eventually be positively identified so that she can finally be given her name back. May she rest in peace, poor woman.
I thought the same thing!
It’s nice to see how much love and care are given to people even if they are not known and even after they are gone. For example, they didn’t just burry her. They tried to give her a service that they think served her. It’s nice to see kindness.
Accidentally found him, and now I'm addicted to his videos
ONE OF US! ONE OF US!
Welcome to the family! When I discovered Joe four years ago I binged all his videos in a week, and I haven't missed one since!
@@jaredwarmack3943 same here! :)
welcome
Welcome to the club!
Sad situation brings me down. So many people out there have died in mysterious ways never to be solved. Lonely souls forgotten and invisible. No matter who she was or what she did, her life mattered and she deserved a better end.
It is such a sad story. Btw, I'm on my second run through NWN, my favorite rpg. Taking Linu as my companion, she's so funny 😸
Well said. It speaks to the belief that human value is intrinsic, rather than determined purely through socio-economic stature.
Maybe not so sad. If I could find a way to disappear and have my death be a mystery that would be ideal. I have been planning my own death and disappearance for many years now. I want to slip away, die, and have my body never be found. My greatest fear is dying in a bed. What a sad and pathetic way to go.
@@mjwbulich well now this comment is evidence
@@jeremycmsmith oh god me too stop my poor mind
I knew a woman like this. She would travel from town to town constantly staying in motel rooms no more than a couple nights. she had physical problems but she would never go to the hospital or doctor. She told me that she was on the run because someone or something was chasing her...she also said she heard voices and satan was trying to get her. She had been going for years and her family didnt know where she was. I think that's what was going on with this woman plus people can build up an amazing resistance to pills if they take them for many years she probably took a bunch of pills and was able to make it out to that spot and then took some more she may have let herself on fire with a cigarette or something like that
Don’t you mean mental problems?
Untreated schizophrenia
Sounds like my aunt.
Doing that in the 1970s would require a certain level of wealth that would not be such a casual wealth.
No I am afraid there is something more to this story. It has all the hallmarks of something with careful planning and knowledge.
First of all the amount of fuel it would require for a body to be burned to that degree would be quite large and not a trivial amount a single person could carry by them self.
Then there is the fact this person seems to have no known family connections and is a loner.
@@bighands69
Unless her family was wealthy. In those days, having a mentally ill family member would be shameful and the family might not have come forward to claim her.
Or, she had side effects to the pills and had a mental break as a result of taking sleeping meds. This happens sometimes, too.
In those days, sleeping pills were prescribed to women for all kinds of maladies. They were given out like candy-- like Oxycodone when it first came out.
Your sensitivity towards her is truly moving.
I have an uncle who suffered from paranoid schizophrenia and unmedicated bipolar disorder. This story, sad as it is, has screamed mental illness to me for the very start. He even was around her age at this time. The way that folks with severe mental illness experienced the world back then was a lot different than today.
Unfortunately it hasn’t changed for everyone, at least in the US. I recently knew a woman who may be living like this now. She was repeatedly failed by her family, friends, the psychiatry industry, and the state. Family or friends who educate themselves and advocate for a mentally ill person can save their life. Severely mentally ill people who don’t have that kind of support often end up homeless or trafficked. We have a long way to go.
She was an excellent spy. She’s still invisible, even in death
A spy who thought it was a good idea to put furniture from her hotel room into the hallway?
And not to bathe but instead try to cover her BO with garlic?
Great powers of deduction there Sherlock!
@@antonystringfellow5152 I think their implying more so that if a spy would never standout than one that stands out so much almost no other spy would suspect her of being a spy. But I’m like you it’s very much not the thing to do. She was probably just mentally Ill and that is just sad and this woman died in fire after eating a ton of pills.
What if you were employed to stand out? And removed to eliminate being identified. What if you had mental issues and were made to believe that you were a spy, so that another person could move around unnoticed, odourless, quiet and unremarkable. 🤔
@@felinedaze2058 interesting perspective. Does sound like some project
@@jonathanhughes8679 the pill method was used more than one's by the CIA the kill and the teeth could be evident of electrocution aka MK-ultra ect. my guess is she was from a Jewish family and maybe even a PWO survivor from WW2 3 rike and worked for the 🇺🇸 or Russia most likely the 🇺🇸
“Sounds like overkill to me” that’s the funniest dad joke I’ve heard in a long time. A bit macabre, but funny never the less.
@Joe Scott I know this will get buried, but I do have a tiny bit of insight into this case. In the early 1970’s, it was very popular for women to have a collection of different wigs and falls. My mom brought part of her collection with her on her and my father’s honeymoon. People assumed he was with a different woman each night and would comment to him. My parents would just laugh it off. But, this was part of popular fashion back then.
NGL that sounds amazing. Like dress up forever.
Hey Joe, could you please make a video about Jacobo Grinberg?
He was a Mexican neurophysiologist and psychologist. He dedicated himself to studying Mexican shamanism, oriental disciplines, meditation, astrology, and telepathy through the scientific method. But he mysteriously disappeared on December 8, 1994, without leaving a single trace. People say that it was secret agencies who kidnapped him, since he supposedly discovered telepathy. Would love a video on this topic!
There was an eyewitness who said they saw a man walking after her on the mountain. I do think she struggled with anxiety but that someone was chasing her. It may have just been an abusive spouse.
7:06 "A number on clothing items, with the labels cut out" The Somerton man, a man that died on the beach in Australia under mysterious circumstances, also had clothing with the labels cut out. Both have been suspected of being spies.
A common practice in eastern europe if the label is inside, to szop it from rubbing skin.
@@balazsvarga1823 Agree, my mom used to do that. On the other hand, her notes were written in German. She also used "Ljubljana", the original name of the town - East Germans tended to use original names rather than germanised ones (would be Laibach). Maybe she was from the GDR?
Also, when they located the book that the words "Tamam Shud" had been torn from, they were able to reconstruct some things he had written from indentations on the book. Similar to the Isdal Woman, one of these was a group of letters that many believed to be some sort of coded message or information. If they weren't spies or involved in some other secretive work, I wonder if writing in code like that is a possible symptom of mental illness?...
@@jkb2016 We have an idea of where she grew up via isotope analysis. Apparently she spent time in the French-German border region for some time as a child and teen. Which means she could have come from Alsace, the Rhineland Palatinate or Saarland. She was described as speaking German. Alsatian is a dialect of High German which can be hard to understand for people who speak a different dialect of German especially Low German. We have an idea of where she grew up via this isotope analysis but not where she lived after she left the area. This is where genetic genealogy plays a role. If we could analyze her DNA and compare it across Europe we could find any surviving family out there. Of course this all depends if she wasn’t adopted.
@@mirandagoldstine8548 Okay, but I don't see the point?
I like Joe for not only being fixated on stories happening in America, but even as an American also taking stories that have happened in Europe. I already was pretty well surprised when he talked about the Kaspar Hauser case. And I must admit, as a German living in Germany and doing German things, this makes me even a bigger fan of his channel. Wouldn't you, if he mentioned your homeland?
FOREVER JOE SCOTT!!!
(Tom's good too, but I'm more the Joe guy)
"Doing German things." Being accurate? LOL Nice one.
"Doing German things." As a german: Prost!
How germaine
Yeah I know, if we got a trace of humour, it's pretty bad 😂
@@youareliedtobythemedia cool, I'm not the only one 😂👍
Very interesting. I live in Bergen but have never heard of this woman before. I actually went for a walk up into Isdalen yesterday. Chilling stuff.
wow, that's so interesting! what a shock that must've been for you. I wish there was some little memorial plaque in place to educate folks not just on her case, but obviously to bring awareness to the missing persons and suicides in the area. There are a few memorials of that nature around where I live and I've always found them to be a sweet gesture, whilst also keeping cases in the public consciousness.
@@RealElongatedMuskrat Norwegians tend to prefer putting memorial plaques in places that are (or were) already inhabited, not out in pristine nature. There's actually a whole lot of plaques in the valley opposite to Isdalen (along the Tarlebø way), where there used to be farms that were abandoned around in the early 1900s. (Now the whole area from Ulriken to Rundemanen is protected, being the drainage basin of the city's water supply. It's allowed to hike there, but not to camp or bathe.)
I've been to Bergen and have to say it's the most Beautiful place I have ever seen
And doing the return train ride from Olso to bergen and back will long live in my memory for how stunning it was
@@RealElongatedMuskrat I'm also from Bergen, but also never heard about this story, but maybe not weird as I was born here 21 years after this (im 30 now). It's always interesting to hear about things that happened in my city before I existed, because likely my parents arent gonna randomly sit down and tell me about random criminal cases from when they were teenagers lol.
@@RealElongatedMuskrat Her grave is unmarked.
my uncle suffers from paranoid schizophrenia. it´s no fun when they have a paranoid episode. Im glad he can get help in this situations. I can´t imagine when someone don´t get help. It´s horrible for this person. Very sad but I really think that could be true for her too.
The idea that I immediately had was that she was attempting to hide/flee from someone, who caught up with her in the town near where she died/was killed. Thanks for bringing this cold case to life for me ...
I’ve been fascinated by this case for a long time. Listened to ice valley each week. Did some research. You covered it really well and added details that most don’t bother to research. This is the best coverage if this tragic case I’ve ever seen, and I’m obsessed enough to have watched them all lol. Thankyou for covering this so well, and with the compassion that she deserves.
this was NOT the video to choose while i ate lol
You should check out the case of Jennifer Fairgate. It's VERY similar to this story.
The concept of carbon monoxide poisoning did make me consider that something had affected her mentality.
One of the side affects of carbon monoxide is memory loss. I assume the carbon monoxide was only from the fire, but it's possible that she was exposed to some other toxin or trigger that made her severely unaware or incoherent, which could explain why she ended up taking so many pills. Perhaps even a lack of sleep causing hallucinations, memory loss or severe distress. There have been people who take excess sleeping pills because they're desperate to sleep. If they were sleeping pills she took, that may have been why.
The real confusing part though is the sole print on her knee? Unless it was a light impression from her boots being on her lap, then how did it get there?
I was wondering that too did they ever match it to any of the shoes or boots they found in connection to her?
That would make it even harder for her to walk alone to the place she died though. We are talking about an area that is really dangerous for inexperienced hikers, and getting their full of both an overdose of sleeping pills and carbon monoxide poisoning seems extremely unlikely.
If they found her in an easy access area close to town it would make a whole lot of sense but the place suggest that either someone helped her commit suicide or killed her. There is something fishy about the case.
You can't get carbon monoxide poisoning with an open fire, inside a tent yes but not open fire outside
@@loke6664 I didn't see any reference to the area being difficult to access.
@@montanamike7948 Yes, and CO takes a while to accumulate to lethal levels.
Just want to say Joe, I love how you always strive to remind people of the real points in these stories. No matter what else, she was a person who lived, breathed and no matter her issues was deserving of a more dignified end than being burned alive. People focus on the mysterious and salacious but forget the rest. Thanks for your take as always (I have read/watched a lot on this case but this is one of the best.)
Well said! Agree!
Perhaps she was sick? End stage liver disease can make breath and sweat smell like garlic and rotten eggs.
Liver cirrhosis (whether alcohol or drug induced or not) can cause brain dysfunction and confusion. That could have also impacted her behaviour.
You have to take the evidence with caution because we do not know if it was accurate or not.
I like how you did a content warning, after the single graphic shot in the entire video.
Genuine constructive feedback: You probably want to give the content warning BEFORE showing the photo of the naked dead woman whose body was completely burned and maybe then give people a few seconds to minimize the window before you move on with the story.
Yeah, that's fair.
@@joescott I hope you feel that was genuinely beneficial and not something like overly critical and nitpicky.
@@TheNuclearGeek - forgive me for being overly critical and nitpicky but it seems like it's easier for people to be critical and nitpicky when hiding behind pseudo-scientific monikers like, "Nuclear Geek," who has created a channel with no videos and no content. Very "Isdal Woman" of you, touché Mr./Ms./Mrs./Dr./Sir/Madam Geek, touché indeed.
@@norryniven2886 What exactly are you being critical of? My name is my name because I've worked in the nuclear power industry my whole professional life.
When I said it was genuine constructive feedback that's exactly what it was. I didn't say it to be mean.
Also, you have your own channel too. Every account is a channel.
@@TheNuclearGeek okay, makes sense now.
This video was very interesting, like all of his videos. The small touch of humour was ok to break the tension on the horrific death of the Isdal Woman. Love your channel, please don't stop your style.
The fact that she could take that many of those pills and still walk talk and breathe means she had a high tolerance. So her strange behavior could easily be explained by the fact that she was geeked up on these pills. And I don't know if they tested for speed or not, but it is not uncommon for people who take sedatives like that to also take uppers. So imagine someone taking Ambien and smoking meth. Strangest thing to me is the fact that she had money. Crazy people that have schizophrenia don't tend to have a lot of money. Also, drug addicts don't tend to have a lot of money. So, has anyone ever searched for medical records of any doctor who prescribed excessive amounts of this medication to a woman? Her death could be the result of her drug-induced insanity. I was a paramedic and we got calls for people who were smoking meth who thought midgets were living under their house and they wanted us to come get them out. And they always thought the FBI was staked out in the woods watching them. And one of them ran through town going door to door running into businesses screaming that someone was trying to kill him. I know that no one was trying to kill him because he said I was trying to kill him.
LMAOO THAT END
Hmm...
Exactly what a killer might say...
Joking aside, what if she got to the spot where she died, took the pills, waited an hour (perhaps drinking the liquor) then took 12 more pills before burning herself?
I didn't understand why she had to have taken the pills elsewhere.
@A Carpenter’s Son I have finally met a kindred spirit! According to all the paranoid schizophrenics I worked with at the psych ward, I was the one telling the “voices” all about them. I was the one inserting thoughts and stealing thoughts from their heads. From your post, I finally know who was trying to kill them. We need to get together! I’ve never met anyone else who elicited this type of strong reactions from those suffering with paranoid schizophrenia.
Her money could be attributed to one of the theories that she was a sex worker, this means her travel and secrecy due to her paranoid schizophrenia or delusion would still be affordable and would explain the sightings with men.
Ambien and neth...everyone wants a soft landing.
I live just a short hike away from Isdalen in Bergen where the woman was found so it's funny that Joe is presenting this case to an international audience when it's this close to home.
Same, but im from sotra. Still close enough 😅
I remember watching a documentary about this many years ago. The thing that really stayed with me from that one was a guy that was interviewed who was out walking his dog that very morning in the same area. According to him he walked past "this mysterious woman" who was with two men. No one in the entourage spoke a single word, and as they passed him he caught eye contact with her. He immediately felt she was trying to communicate something to her. Possibly that she was in danger. That memory had stayed with him throughout his life. I don't know what the documentary was called or if it holds any water, but it's a chilling recount.
If this video does well and you want to do more, I recommend the lady of the Dunes. And the possibility that she was in 'Jaws' as an extra wearing the same clothes she died in.
This sounds fascinating. I know what I’m going to be looking into the rest of today.
Whoooaa that sounds crazy, checking out out now
Shane & Ryan already cover that case.
@@GurdeepSingh-df9zy They also already covered this one. Some people wouldn't mind hearing another perspective and different details
that case messed me up. i grew up around race point on the cape and the whole situation is really freaky.
Police: "Could you pick her out of a lineup?"
Everyone across Europe: "Absolutely, that BO is unmistakable."
LOL
What immediately comes to my mind is those two tall European blond twins who left Ireland and came to England and there behaviour became insane. I’m wondering if the isdel woman had the same kind of temperament.
One detail left out is that a man who had been hiking in the area remembered seeing a woman that met her description walking in the opposite direction, followed closely by two men. He thought something seemed strange about the scene (she was dressed in light “city clothes, not hiking gear, the men wore unusual coats, and she looked like she wanted to say something to him, but didn’t), so he called the police, who told them it was probably nothing.
Sounds like she was fleeing someone who was after her, and they caught up with her.
It’s scary to think that there is a family out there who have a relative that went missing, and no one knows that they know what happened to her
A Sickly Sweet Body Odor is a common result of various medical disorders.
And poisoning
@@jonnyiles4665 true!
Including the people who claimed to smell such.
Some medications also can come out the glands in your skin as sweat
If I were to have a guess I'd say it sounds like suicide, she probably went out there fully intending to comit suicide, took the first load of pills hoping that would kill her, after they didnt work she took some more, then shortly after when they werent working she lit herself on fire as she was pretty much out of options at that point. Probably through mental illness, if she was paranoid maybe she just couldnt take it anymore feeling like being followed so decided to end it
Had it been suicide, all she would've had to do was to wait for the hypothermia to set in - a very peaceful death, as opposed to burning alive.
Setting herself on fire while probably being unconcious from all the sleeping pills and then managing to dispose of the container of petroleum is highly improbable. On the other hand, a killer forcing her to take the pills, marching her to a desolate place, waiting for her to pass out to set her on fire and disposing of evidence afterwards - a murder like that wouldn't be anything too exceptional.
@@TTFerdinand Exactly. Depending on how quickly she metabolized the pills she might not have been conscious enough to actually start the fire. We have no clue if she started the fire herself or if there was someone with her that day so that does bring up a couple of holes in the suicide theory. Personally I suspect she was hiding from someone. She had a wedding ring on her if I recall correctly, a cheap one, which wouldn’t fit with someone wearing the latest in Italian designer fashion unless she recently fell on hard times. However the reason for the missing tags could be because she had sensitive skin and the tags made her itch. We have all these clues and yet a lot of people suspect spy. If I was investigating this case I would start with the isotope analysis. We know she was in her 30s when she died so finding census records of families with girls who were born in 1930, give or take 4 years, should be the starting point especially if they are from Nuremberg as well as Alsace, the Rhineland Palatinate and Saarland.
@@TTFerdinand
If she was murdered it most certainly was an exceptional effort. Suicide seems unlikely but not improbable.
The amount of fuel it would have required to burn a body like that would have been large and not easy to carry up the side of a mountain.
Taking a large volume of a pharmaceutical in advance to climbing up the mountain does not seem likely either.
I suspect without any real evidence that there was a certain amount of misdirection at play here.
I would take the intelligence communities assessment with a large pinch of salt.
"yeah I'm either gonna take some pills and go peacefully or just light myself on fire" --no one
joe i have watched you for years and i kind of went through a stagnant period where i didn’t watch many videos, although i kept on supporting through patreon, and i can honestly say you have rekindled my love for the channel. the latest vids have been very good and i really like the content! keep it up!
I know Phenobarbital is the drug of choice used in assisted suicide. The fact she had that much of it in her body is astonishing as nowhere near that amount would be used at an exit clinic.
“Claylike substance”😂
It looks like a wild block of c4.
I never heard of this case. It is so sad. I hope that someday, perhaps there will be closure. Thank you Joe for your honest, gracious reporting if this.
Thanks for reminding us that she was a person first, long before she became a mystery.
Death In Ice Valley is a truly fascinating and wonderfully atmospheric podcast ... can’t recommend it highly enough. Thx Joe! 😀👍
If I ever die under mysterious circumstances and someone segues seamlessly from an explanation of my death to an advertisement I’m coming back full poltergeist.
As someone with a mother that suffers from severe mental illness, I gravitate toward that theory. I could 100% see my mother doing these things and taking too many pills either on purpose for some paranoid reason or just because she kept forgetting that she already took one. Mental illness can lead to all sorts of bizarre actions that could leave all sorts of mixed signals as to what really happened.
Sure! Dozens of them out of forgetting!
"Illness" as the easy go to solution if all else fails! Sure.
@@chrise842 be happy you haven’t lived with someone with mental illness bad enough for this to make sense to you.
even tho i'm norwegian, i've never heard of this story, but i'm intrigued by this story, and grateful that joe brought it up. recommend the plaza woman if you're looking into another norwegian unsolved mystery
I think mental illness is the most probable explanation. My mother has a friend who suffers from paranoid schizophrenia, and she has a habit of changing her cell phone number often, or getting a whole new phone, because she believes her family members have gotten ahold of her number and all the information about her from it and that they have malicious intentions towards her. So I find the Isdal Woman's actions reasonable if she were suffering from a mental illness or some type of fugue state.
Additionally the amount of luggage she had seems a bit cumbersome if she were a spy.
The mind can be its own worst enemy. We had a local fella who thought his mother had been replaced by an imposter. This condition has a name but I can't recall it.
@@robjones8733 quite true, and the man's illness you mention is Capgras syndrome, I believe. I recall a documentary I once watched about individuals with Capgras syndrome. One man could speak to his family over the phone and know it was them, but if he saw them in person he would believe they were imposters.
@@MysticMetaKnight
While it is probable that she could have had a mental health breakdown I think that it is highly unlikely.
The case seems to point to an event that was organized and it is not likely that a person that was suffering from such an episode would be capable of carrying out such an organized plan.
One of the problems we have in the case is with certainty is establishing if every bit of evidence is actually genuine and not a plant or mistake.
What we do know is that the amount of a fuel required to burn a body to such a degree is larger than what a person could carry by them self up a mountain, That she had consumed a large amounts of a pharmaceutical that would not have allowed her to travel up that mountain and that she had a certain level of wealth.
Everything beyond that cannot be considered as reliable evidence.
@@bighands69 We don't know what the woman was capable of or if she even acted alone in her final actions, although at this point every theory has its merit. However, in general, mental illness does not preclude a person from having organizational skills or the ability to orchestrate complex actions. In assuming the Isdal woman had a mental illness I am also making the assumption that she would have been a high-functioning individual, meaning the level of impairment a mental illness has did not impede her from having close to, what is considered, a regular day-to-day life as a member of society. But being high-functioning doesn't make a person any less susceptible to the pitfalls of their illness/illnesses.
@@bighands69 "What we do know is that the amount of a fuel required to burn a body to such a degree is larger than what a person could carry by them self up a mountain, That she had consumed a large amounts of a pharmaceutical that would not have allowed her to travel up that mountain and that she had a certain level of wealth.
Everything beyond that cannot be considered as reliable evidence." Indeed. We also know one more thing- countries do not usually set their spies on fire while they are still breathing. But organized crime groups do to slow down or prevent identification of the victim do so. Actually quite often. For example in cases of human trafficking, failed attempts at getting ransom in exchange for kidnapping someone or when a drug trafficking "mule" does something wrong. Why? It takes time to move entire network of illegal activities elsewhere and it's good to keep police busy with body identfication and with looking for a serial killer or trying to solve a mysterious crime while for example human trafficking or drug trafficking network moves its operation or production or distribution center elsewhere. So good question is- What organized crime investigations were open at that time in this location? Being a trouble maker at the hotel might also look as if....she was wanted to be noticed. People do it for example if they need an alibi later on. So interesting question is....what would she need an alibi for?
I have a theory.
Women with chronic liver disease, what would make her breath smell like garlic, which she would try to hide with cheap perfume; and what could cause hair loss hance the wig. Her condition was caused by some last-stage disease or alcoholism. She decides to kill herself but plans a goodbye trip around Europe with her final destination being this beautiful mountain where she could die while looking at something nice. Once she arrives she takes the pills but she possibly changes her mind last minute. She staggers back the way she came from but because she can hardly walk from the overdose she trips and falls. Two things might happen. The can of hairspray explodes from the impact then possibly: If she was an alcoholic the white thermostat might have an alcoholic beverage in it, which would made her accident much worse and probably contributed to the complete evaporation of the thermostat.
She might tried to hide her identity for religious reasons since suicide is a sin, and the cards in her notebook suggest she might have been quite religious and didn't want her family to know what happened.
Sounds plausable, but who lit the match that set the alchool or the hairspray can on fire? Because neither of them catch fire unless there is an open flame nearby, and for now, no trace of a camping fire has been found or mentioned.
There was a woman named Gloria Ramirez who came into an emergency room and smelled garlicky. People started fainting after a while around her. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Gloria_Ramirez?wprov=sfti1
One of the theories was that she drank a chemical in a homemade self treatment for pain that interacted with her blood chemistry (and possibly drugs taken for cancer). I could see the Isdal woman being a similar situation-a woman in pain, taking a drug, she wants to die, etc. The accelerant could have been in the thermos and tossed before she passed out. She could have also had a large quantity of high proof alcohol in that bottle, downed most of it and lit a cigarette, catching herself on fire.
it would have shown in the autopsy.
@@RejectedInch cans of pressurized gas can blow up when they are hit by something, even the ground
@@Sofia-kr9fb
Sorry but your theory would have to face up to the fact that a large amount of fuel would have been required to burn the body and getting that up the side of a mountain would be difficult.
Also the pharmaceutical that was taken would have impaired physical and mental performance.
This event was planned and not the actions of somebody who was irrational. So taking the substances to commit suicide and then changing that to Self-immolation on a whim is highly unlikely and very difficult to achieve in a short period of time.
I love learning from you, Joe! You always make everything so interesting and fun.
I am born and raised in Bergen, and have spent most of my life here. For me, the biggest issue I have in regards to the suicide theory, boils down to the geography of Bergen. I am an avid hiker, and, as a matter of fact, just two days ago I hiked in the Isdalen area. Here is the thing: The Isdal woman checked out of her hotel at 10:30 am and then took a taxi to the train station. This would be, depending on traffic, about a 7-10 minute drive. We also know that witnesses reported seeing smoke from the Isdalen area around noon. Furthermore, the partially melted wristwatch found next to her body, had frozen at the time 12 : 32. We can therefore assume that time of death probably was some time between noon and 12:30 pm.
This leaves between 75-90 minutes for the Isdal woman to get from the train station to the isolated forest patch where she was found, In order to make it from the train station to this part of Isdalen in this time frame you would have to walk _extremely_ fast. Basically you would have to run for 75-90 minutes straight with no breaks. Even for an active hiker like me, it would be difficult. However, considering all the stuff that was found at the crime scene, this would be, I would argue, pretty much an impossible feat, considering everything she would have to carry. If we, in addition, assume that she had swallowed dozens of sleeping pills before she arrived at the spot where she died,, it would be even more unlikely.
It is possible, in theory, that she could have taken another taxi, or a bus, for part of the stretch, but even if you get off at the closest current bus stop to Isdalen, you would still need to hike at a brisk pace for 45 - 50 minutes to get to the forest patch where the body was ultimately found. However, no taxi drivers, bus drivers or bus passengers, observed the Isdal women in the relevant time frame.
The only possibility left is therefore that she must have been driven in a private car for most of the stretch. Which means that there must have been other people with her pretty much up until her death.
French or german
I think the Isdal Woman was on the run from someone or something. And the fact that she ended up dead... It seems like a lot of trouble to go through to unalive yourself.
I really love these more mysterious videos and I'm glad everyone else does too. GIVE US MORE!!!
Loved that video about Peter Bergman so I know I’m going to love this one! These videos are so good. I sometimes go into a rabbit hole after watching them and start looking into their lives and what evidence we have after watching them. Thanks so much Joe!
I want to do disgusting things to your cat
That's so sad...but the last bits of information (that there is an organization like the DNA Doe Project out there...and that they not only gave her a decent burial but endeavored to give her the type of ceremony & service she might have wanted) made me feel hopeful, in the possibility of closure for her case and others...and hope in humanity in general.
I don’t believe someone could take that much medication at once without vomiting them up. I think she’d have to take a first batch, followed a little later by more, and so on. But she’d become so wobbly, she couldn’t manage to take anywhere near all of them because she’d be unconscious. Just an opinion.
Smuggler?
I always wonder about age estimates based on eye witnesses, as a 24 year old who gets shouted at semi regularly by shop keepers who think I'm a 15-16 year old skipping school. I just have chronic baby face when I'm not wearing makeup and I'm 5ft tall so I will probably be getting ID'd for a long time. I'm just used to it now, it's a constant stream of "is your mom home?" 😭. Since people have an idea in their heads of what someone in their mid 20s looks like, I don't think they'd match that up with me if I went missing and someone had indeed seen me on the street. I know a gal who's 32 and has scoliosis so she's 4ft 11, a few days ago a delivery driver asked her "is your mummy home?" when she answered her own front door.
Same! That always confuses me, because you can't really know a stranger's age just by looking at them?? I mean I guess some people are pretty good at guessing, but I don't see why that should be taken as fact in any kind of police investigation.
Yeah, eyewitness age estimates are really unreliable, particularly for women. Most of the developed world has a deeply skewed idea of what women "should" look like at certain ages.
Most of the women in my family look older than our age up until we're in our mid to late 20s, then start looking younger than our age. Someone tried to register me to vote when I was 12 because I "looked like a college student", and the first time I was asked for ID during an alcohol purchase came when I was nearly 30. I'm approaching 40 now and have silver in my dark hair, and I still get mistaken for a college student if I go out without makeup. My grandmother could pass for 20 years younger than her real age, later in life.
Some people have those kinds of faces. Maybe the Isdal Woman is one. Heck, she even kinda looks like one of my aunts.
glad I'm not the only one thinking this! 😂
Can relate. I think the last time someone asked me what I was doing out of school, I already had a few grey hairs. I just pretend I'm a 500-year-old vampire lmao
Heh. I know the feeling. I don't really have a baby face, but I'm only 4'10", so people always think I'm way younger than I really am. Next birthday I'm turning 40, but not that many years ago some salesman or religious guys rang the doorbell to our apartment, and I seriously got asked (in the most condescending tone as possible): "Is your mummy or daddy at home?" My answer (said in a really dark voice): "No." I then slammed the door closed. At least I have a dark voice, so I get to see people's shocked looks when I open my mouth. :)
Eye witnesses would probably describe me as a kid.
(Edited to write out a better English translation.)
I used to take frequent walks in the area where she was killed. The mountains around Bergen are beautiful when the weather is nice, but when it rains (most of the time) or after darkness they become incredibly creepy. Once I was walking in those woods at dusk and saw a guy walking in the opposite direction towards me. It freaked the hell out of me because I immediately remembered what happened to the Isdal woman. It gave me an idea of how she felt when she realised she was being followed. There's literally nowhere to hide so you KNOW you're going to be dead the second you realise you're being followed. The only way to survive is to outrun your followers.
I am going to say something and please do not be offended by what I am about to say. Women should not be out on their own even in the countryside.
Most men that they meet are good people that would not harm anybody and would offer assistance but there is a small subsection of men about 1% that are psychopaths' and it is they who maybe predators.
That is not to say a women cannot go out on her own but she needs to understand these things. But I would also offer the same types of advice for many men. Going out after dark into remote places that other humans may frequent should only be done by certain men.
Apart from humans certain environments have wild animals as well.
@@bighands69 1. Victim blaming much? 2. This is Europe. I've been walking outside in the dark my entire life.
@@frndusbambulius1709
Do not get offended.
I am only telling you as it is and you know what I am saying is the truth. In your own words "It freaked the hell out of me" and that is your own instincts telling you of your situation.
There are many things that people should not do such as swimming on their own, hunting in the wilderness on their own and several other things as well.
If you are in a very remote place meaning nobody is within your vicinity for many miles then you need to really know what you are doing. If you are in a place that is popular with people then you need to understand how vulnerable you can be on your own.
A woman is perfectly free to walk at night on her own through any part of town but has to be realistic that she is vulnerable.
There is no point a person being in the right legally and morally when they are dead or badly injured.
There are things I could inform you of that may genuinely freak you out and put far more context on things.
It does not matter by the way if you are in Europe, north America, africa or Asia.
@@bighands69 you must be American.
@@bighands69 true
I would love to see you do a video on amusia. The condition that some people have that makes it so they cannot detect pitch. You touched on it in a previous video but I forgot to suggest it then. I learned about the condition in a book called The Singing Neanderthals which seeks to find the origins of language and music. Good read but a little over my head at times. Love your channel!! Sorry for the off topic comment but I wanted to suggest it.
I have a hypothesis, how about if you have a mental illness, it grooms you for "looking at the silver lining", optimism bias, restricting the contents of your consciousness, and the deep desire to go on living; however if you do not have a mental illness and are logic heavy it propels you towards not wanting to breed and possibly even cut short your life to avoid the inevitable entropy of everything. Some folks develop the courage to get over the immense pull of the survival instinct.
joe, this is one of my favorite mystery cases, and im so happy you covered it!!!!
THANK YOU!
Brilliant video, I love your mystery videos, you have a great knack for telling a story in general but the ones who deal with unknowns are the best.
Hi Joe ! Could you make a New Year Special where you look back on the past year and sum up all the new science discoveries made and where they might lead us to?
The age disparity is not an issue. I am nearly 40 but everyone I meet peg me at no more than 25. Not due to good moisturizer, just good genes
Peter Bergmann's wish was to remain anonymous. It should be respected and left alone. The isdal woman case on the other hand looks extremely suspicious like murder. I hope she is identified and her case given some closure. 🙏🏻
The eerie parallels between this case and the case of Jennifer Fairgate’s decades later are astonishing.
13:24 Joe, a cursory Wikipedia search tells you that prostitution is, and was in 1970, if not completely legal then at least decriminalised in West Germany, France, Italy and Norway.
I've come to love this channel because your explanations of things always help ground me a bit lmao I can be quick to fall for the sensationalized theories of things but the way you explain it and just lay out the facts really helps me see the more mundane explanations for things. I still find these cases incredibly interesting and I dont completely throw out the more sensational theories but this channel does help me see that they are often not the most likely answers, even when others make it seem that way
"They say she may have been 45, but that would have contradicted witness reports saying she appeared to be in her early 30s... maybe she used a lot of moisturizer?"
Me, a 35-year-old who gets asked which high school she goes to all the damn time: Naw, it's the blood sacrifices. Really helps with that youthful glow.
No Garlic eaters don't blood sacrifice because vampires don't like garlic
2:32 „I suppose I should do a content warning here.“ Says it after having shown the body already - twice. I don't really mind but it would make more sense the other way round.
This is an awesome story. The best part is it hasn't been driven into the ground by every RUclipsr.
I think, perhaps the only way to make someone take 50 pills would be to basically waterboard them with the pills. This would leave ligature marks. Ligature marks were probably burned away. But owing to the fact that she was still conscious while on fire (ugh, horrible), the device used to restrain her and force the pills, should have been nearby. Or, the assailant was incredibly skilled in the art of restraint. Meaning, she did it to herself, or someone super skilled and super shady did it to her. Which, now having written this, is basically the same conclusion everyone else has come up with.
But who auto-immolates? That would be an EXTREMELY rare form of suicide.
Like, set herself on fire hoping she would fall asleep before she felt it?
Why one stocking? That bothered me.
She did not appear to be prepared to be where she was, but had to have been there for a long while, IF she rode the gondola, or whatever.
How did she get there, if not helped?
The burning conceals evidence of exposure, unfortunately.
Not sure where I'm going with this, but, just a few observations I guess.
If you look at the 1972 murder of the Thunestvedt teenager (from Bergen) in Strasbourg. She was strangled and burnt. The magistrate said it was a staged murder - meaning a middle-aged white man with knowledge of police procedures. Then if you reflect that back to the Isdal Woman murder it changes your perspective. What would be the chances that a girl whose mother was an Isdal Woman witness was also severely burnt - but by a killer this time. Did she see someone in Strasbourg in 1972 who she had seen in Bergen in October 1970 while meeting her mother at the hotel?
@Taylor Smith
The case has all the hallmarks of careful planning and misdirection. Most of the evidence of this case has to be taken with caution. Even the evidence that was in the station such as the suitcases have to treated carefully.
One of the first questions that people need to take into account is the amount of fuel it would require for a body to be burned to that degree especially up the side of a mountain.
@@davidmorgan156
"The magistrate said it was a staged murder - meaning a middle-aged white man"
I am sorry but being staged does not mean it was a man and it does not really give any indications to intent either or even that he person/s understands police procedures.
@@bighands69 Ask Alexandre Linden he was the magistrate about white middle aged men. Look at research on staging.
@@bighands69 a UK trainer for fire trainers said likely the wick effect. I'm not entirely convinced. I think a kerosene burner.
This woman clearly had access to significant resources, and had training or at least significant experience in hiding her identity and evading discovery. This suggests the following possibilities: a spy with a burn notice, or an estranged heiress from a very wealthy and publicity shy family. Either way, it sounds like whomever she was running from finally caught up to her.
How about rampant untreated mental illness?
I love that you managed to keep your sense of humor despite the grimness of the topic. The "what have I become?" bit was hilarious.
The humour in this was not nice at all and not well placed either.
@@bighands69 If you say so, buddy. I must have imagined I was laughing...
Glad you mentioned the Death In Ice Valley podcast. Well worth a listen to anyone interested in this story.
Started watching you yesterday and now I have to watch EVERY video of yours ( great content keep it up)
"Bergen is surrounded by mountains" made me laugh because that just beans mountains in german and i could assume something similar in Norwegian
"The Mountains are surrounded by mountains"😂
Fjel is mountain in norwegian, bokmål norsk at least. But I'm sure the name Bergen still somehow comes from mountain. My norwegian is based on misunderstanding swedish as a finnish guy so take that with a grain of salt
Basically hills XD XD But it kinda sells it I guess. Even as a norwegian, flying in to Bergen is a sight to behold. The highest mountain in Norway is half the height of mont blanc in the alps (4808m vs 2469m). We have alot of mountains, yet this is not the himalayas XD
ilarious Berg in norwegian (and scandinavian in general) means any formation of rocks. Although we would, as you said, refer to a mountain as a fjell. But the name comes from Bjørgvin which means the green plain between the mountains 😊
@@annette2150 very informative thank you
Duuude you gotta talk about the "Metaverse". I would love to see your opinion on that one.
Idk what that is, but you’ve caused me to Google it .. as soon as I post this comment.
It's just a dumb new name for the internet, or one's online presence.
But only to debunk how stupid it is.
Ohh Hiked up Ulriken every week when working in Bergen. Really nice and only took like 45 min. Had a beer or coffee at the top and enjoyed the view of the City. Even though it is an amazing view it is not even remotely one of Norways nicest! They are in completely different league than the rest of us!😂 Remember reading about this case!
I believe every Norwegian scoffed as he said that. I know I did.
I'd recommend you visit again, the ulriksbanen and the adjoining restaurant have recently been renovated :)
I like joe the most out of literally dozens of other youtubers doing the same kind of content , because he has a down to earth attitude and is non-dogmatic ..
2:08 is that picture he showed real? If so, how did he get away with it? I have seen RUclips take down videos for much less than a charred corpse.
I don't mean to hold this against him, but damn son if that isn't brutal.
The overkill joke was great, I died laughing😂
You. I see you. What you did there.
Video added 16 seconds ago. 200 + views.
Hell yeah, Joe!
What if her multiple identities were literal? Meaning: Did she suffer from what we now refer to as "DID?" If you've ever known someone who has this, there are a huge number of factors of this story that could be explained, this way. Even some of the more "mundane" details, like a high tolerance to sleeping pills, potentially being a prostitute, or random markings in a notebook who's coding means nothing to anyone but those in her head. If she was going through a time when a lot of "switching" was occurring, this would be disorienting, and perhaps could even make her suicidal. They can do extreme things - even lighting oneself on fire would not be so terribly shocking. It is probably an "unsatisfying answer," meaning that it (1) fits nearly every aspect, and (2) is completely unprovable without contemporary witnesses to her behavior. However, "back in the day," such people were often institutionalized, and she may have just been doing her best for as long as she could to avoid that exact fate.
Further, DID is also an "intelligent person's disorder." You have to have a pretty high mental capacity (memory and IQ) to end up that way. It is a sort of "coping mechanism," but not all people who are abused as children end up with DID. Those that do are often considered "smart" or even "gifted" until the disorder becomes disabling.
A loved one in my life has DID and is extraordinarily mistrusting of places that have "rooms." Hospitals. Hotels. Even houses. "Bad things happen in rooms," she tells me. I can easily see even the quirks of pushing furniture far away as part of that kind of reaction. Given how DID comes to exist some 90% of the time, I can definitely hear someone with this issue saying, "Bad things happen on furniture."
Food for thought.
DID or multiple personality disorder would back up my theory that she was a sex slave. If she was, developing DID as the result of severe trauma fits in with the trafficking idea
@@QueenEra33 True. There's a tendency of people abused as children to seek other abusive relationships throughout their lives ("revictimization" is the word that comes to mind, but I think there's actually a different term for it that escapes me at the moment). "I'm broken, therefore only worthy of other broken people." And this could be a situation that multiple theories cross: If there was a serial killer about, then perhaps this is exactly the type of person she would be attracted to, as well, if she had DID.
It's definitely a super-interesting mystery, and I'm guessing it hasn't been cracked because it is a combo. Severe mental illness (psychotic episodes, or DID switching, or something of that nature) + some X factor makes it impossible to get to "ground truth."
@@QueenEra33
I am sorry by now such theory backs up she was a sex slave. You have just imagined that and it appeases your predisposition to such ideas.
I agree with those posting that they believe mental health was a factor in this poor woman's death. Moving furniture in a hotel room, especially moving things into the hall really speaks to a clinical level of paranoia. If you are hiding and don't want to be noticed this is not a smart thing to do. Joe's comment about thinking things might be bugged sounded spot on to me, though maybe not in the way he meant. I've seen people with delusions throwing stuff out of their rooms to get rid of bugs or cameras many times. Taking so many more pills than necessary . . . It happens. People who are manic aren't usually thinking very clearly, for example. Self immolation is very rare - I've heard of this as either a political gesture or as a political gesture with comorbid schizophrenia. Going so far beyond lethal means suggests to me that this is a person with multiple attempts in the past who is trying to make sure that they aren't stopped, but I don't know if that would have been the same in the 1960s. Suicide was seen differently then and my experiences starting in the 2000s in a setting where there was a strong prevention program and people were at high risk may not be applicable to this case. But still . . . I can't help feeling that this was someone who wanted to be sure that nobody would find her and interrupt her attempt.
15:04 I swear that scene just caught me unawares in this already eerie video
I would opt for either theory 1 or 5, although you have argued very well for each of the 5 theories, I think that only those 2 would be able to explain all the incosistencies found. There must have been either complex interests we dont know of and cant understand (which would be the case if she was a spy, not necessarily of the Soviet Union, spying is common) or she must have had a mind which seems very irrationally to others (in case of schizophrenia) and we therefore struggle to understand her behaviour.
Either way, I liked your approach, your openess and empathy for the victim, no matter what happened.
I think a person having a mental health breakdown is very unlikely due to the lack of evidence at play.
There was a story on netflix about a woman who committed suicide in a hotel room, also in Norway, also unidentified. Her clothes had tags removed. apparently, that is a spy thing. although the theory of the mental problem also sounds legit at this point.
Are you proud of the 'overkill' joke... Huh, Joe... Are you??? LOL It was great...
I didn’t get it…
Yeah. Halfway through the words "paranoid schizophrenia" are hard to shake. Trying very hard to hide their identity, behaving weirdly, throwing out furniture in hotels, etc. So I agree with that theory.
The unexplained parts are why the fire, and why she hasn't been reported as missing and identified.
Every time I see an in-game shout-out for Brilliant, I reflect on the fact we all use math we claim to not understand; we just do it in everyday situations that we don't even think about.