My first bigger colaboration is mayby something for you too. The HEMA equipment shop "Dominus Gladius" build a save flanged mace for my sparring and training. dominusgladius.com/flanged-mace-ver.1/
You probably get this question a considerable amount, but where do you get armor from? As a United States citizen I am very interested in this subject.
@@dequitem Bruder in Christus, du kannst doch nicht einfach einen solchen Flex droppen. Aber im Ernst, sieht sehr gut aus und scheint ja auch super zu funktionieren. Cheers.
I used to be an adventurer like you. Then I took a mace to the knee, kept adventuring for another five years, met my wife and finally settled on a farm.
This show why pietro monte recommanded an ~ 90 cm "mace" with a head like a pollaxe, hand protection, and a grip long enough to allow two handed use (mostly used on horseback IIRC). He recommanded targeting the head and the hands. The only two techniques he describes are: "hold his weapon with your left hand and hit him hard" and "use your weapon with two hands and overpower the enemy".
Yeah, this is what Matt meant when he said maces are kind of simplistic. You could analyse it more and get into fancier techniques, but overall it's about hitting them like you're trying to murder a hippopotamus.
According to another YT channel, Dutchess Skye, there is another source which describes the use of a typical one-handed mace in more detail and they pretty much said that it's possible to use it effectively, but it takes a great deal of skill because you need to be landing hits where there isn't an air gap between the armor and whoever's inside (the hands and the side of the helmet are just the obvious spots). He considerd it more difficult than just using a sword.
Dequitem is single-handedly carrying the sword community beyond the realms of theory and skill into the realms of realistic rehearsal, and it's really unbelievable how much useful information we can get out of this... So thank you very much Dequitem. I wish I was rich to pay you for the effort, but for now make no mistake; your value on RUclips for people who love fighting, historical fighting, everything armors, and weapons, cannot be praised enough. Thank you. Also thank you to your friend/comrade/sparring partner for all the sparring he does, as it is a very important part of all the testing and such. Cheers from Spain! 🗡️🙏
remember, against chainmail it will basically circumvent the chain, meaning its only dampened by the gambeson underneath, that and on horseback are where maces are effective
if i had to say most of the damage it'll do to plate is beneath the armor, like causing a concussion, unless there is some weaker articulating plate to crush like a fingered gauntlet, but luckily these guys wear some big mitten ones, ends up being pretty safe all around
It seems fairly obvious given any experience with combat sports. The issue with many weapon vs armor tests is that they don't account for the fact that a human isn't a rooted rigid target. So because a person will lean or move with the momentum of a blow the force transferred is drastically reduced.
Alot of our conceptions of how armor works has been influenced by media and videogames too Like people believe longbows will punch through hardened steel plate.
You are single handedly sparking my fascination with the nitty gritty detaisl of medieval combat, i have always loved the history, the wars, the people, but never thought about what it was like to fight your life in a duel as a knight. Love your videos and i will continue to support you by liking every video ans commenting on every one:)
Wow im more than a little surprised at how ineffective the mace is compared to what i imagined. I have never seen content like this before on the internet.
My day is made better whenever I see you have a new video. Thank you for the great content! You are inspiring this buhurt fighter to get into Harnischfechten!
Amazing that you got sponsored! Youre very underrated youtuber, theres not many youtube channels that do lots of lessons and knight fighting in videos this fun to watch.
I’ve always been fascinated by this type of dueling/warfare. I realize movies don’t constitute the most legitimate source for understanding how they really fought back then. WHAT REALLY INTERESTS ME; -What characteristics shaped and effectuated the most formidable and successful fighters???? Characteristics similar to what comprises a modern day professional athlete?? -What constituted the look of an authentic fight? Was it a dance of skill??? A bull rush of brutal strength??? Or more like a brawl, that ended up more a wrestling match? -Did skill or strength dictate, or a combination of both?? What other traits made the best the best??? Thanks for any info. A video dedicated specifically these concepts would be absolutely enthralling. The QUESTION BEING, Have we ever really seen what a truly authentic fight resembled from the Mid-evil times/Dark Ages????
Another outstanding video 👍...When the leather strap tore from the rivet it answered a question i was going to say...in that straps and rivets are more vunerable than the armour itself and could, if damaged impact mobility etc...But good job you make your armour well 😁
Great video. Before seeing this, I allwyas thought flanged maces are especially made against armor. But a practical test, like you did it, is better than all theory.
@@SrenHolm-k3o Yep. More like used by cavalry to crack down on the heads of poor bloody infantry. There's exactly one historical source that mentions their use in armored combat and it essentially said "it's very hard, go for the joints".
It really makes sense that a one handed weapon wouldn't be the best choice to fight armor. But the question is, what about being hit with the blunt side of a poleaxe? Has to be even more unpleasant, no? another thing that I don't know about. During such periods, plate armor was something from the elite. But how common was chainmail? or any other kind of armor, that wasn't as expensive. Because a mace would definitely make sense against such. I'm just wondering if the purpose of weapons was based on which enemy they would find the most.
Plate armor was realy common in the 15th and 16th century, nearly every men in arms and every citizen of a town owned his own breastplate. It wasnt that expensive. Of course not every citizen own a full body armor but a breastplate, helmet and a spear. I will make tests to the luzernhammer and poleaxe. soon.
@@dequitem I don't doubt it, honestly, that breastplates were relatively cheap given that they're one of the simpler components to make (compared to finely articulating lames, especially). Was it around the later parts of the 15th or so that having a breastplate became relatively common?
Chainmail is also quite expensive, it is incredibly labor intensive to make. Don't quote me on this, but I think in many cases chainmail would be more expensive than getting a couple of the most important pieces of plate.
@@TheLadderman I wouldn't be surprised at all if you were exactly right seeing how much work goes into mail. I just hadn't really thought about the relative inexpense of a simple breastplate, to be honest
@@snappa_tv It's not like I despise DnD, basically, it's just that it has caused people to strongly associate concepts with each other that really have nothing to do with one another, such as maces and clecics.
It's very impressive that you go to such measures to replicate things, but are able to recognize that maybe some more modern developments in brain protection could be better, such as increased padding like you guys seem to be wearing, or ways to prevent blows from actually breaking eachothers neck.
Huh, I never really considered the idea of using a mace in mounted combat, but you make a some really good arguments for its use as such. I always learn something new, or get a different perspective on a topic from these weapon analysis videos. Great job once again.
Found the video. Pretty good test. I do worry the armour is not fixed in place, however, so you'll get far less damage. You also ought to try sharpening those flanges, so they really bite in. Not safe for sparring, of course, but if you want to make a hideous dent, it'll help a lot. Have to keep in mind that a one handed weapon against the best armour like trying to stop a tank with a hand-grenade--you can, but it's tricky. Same with daggers and swords--maile is not easy to pierce. Like Matt said in his response, maces are good against intermediate armour, as it's obvious to everyone that warhammers and picks are more dedicated anti-armour weapons.
I thought the mace head would be bigger like fist size. Also thought they are at least 2KG and function like a pick with multiple edges. Guess it's used for chain mail?
yeah, against hardened steel it's gonna do nothing, you need spring or carbon steel to simulate medieval plate realistically, hardened is too strong...
I always thought a mace would be a good side weapon for heavy cavalry as their height would give them access to the head, but I never realized how short maces were.
Try that with a 36 inch 8 lb head sledge hammer. I would find a longer handle if they exist Just test it on a shield where someone holds the shield and for the rest test on armor that is on a stand where you test downward shoulder upper shots near the helmet and one with maybe an old helmet on a stand. You can block with a sledge hammer since most of the mass is in the head. You just move the handle around. Also see if you can knock a shield out of someones hands if a swing of the hammer goes over the top and you immediatly try to graple the shield off with the hammer. Also try hitting someones hand through the shield and build up until they feel the shield is at the limit.
There is kinda a diffrence between a single hand wood or rubber mallet and an 8 pound hammer head at 36 inches. Its not much of a question if a small mallet will hit hard enough to ignore armor. You kinda lose the whole point of being blunt if its going to also be light.
I can ride a horse and I had a horse some years ago, but I would never call me an expert there and I don't want to risk the health of a horse by experiment with them in non-choreographed stuff!
Great video! I know you say it's intuitive but I think you should use it more as if you are going for a knockout punch i.e plant your feet, torque from the legs and hips and strike through the target rather than using more upper body and arms hitting at the target. (This is all conjecture as I've never used a mace just going off boxing experience and not meaning any offence!).
I watched a lot of your videos and it seems that even the weapons that where designed for killing knhights in armor( polehammer, warflail, maces and noble axe) where less usefull than a good wrestling skills plus dagger combination 😮 it’s crazy how strong were these plate armors 😅 A must have indeed😊 What about morning stars?
Some would say fist is an ineffective weapon too, and it's mostly true. Most men don't know how to throw a punch, even when one do, human hand is too fragile to last in almost any combative scenario. But then we got certain people who can end a fight within seconds with punches when certain conditons met, but it's not because their hand are different from other human, they're just flesh and bone, it's the body mechanic they're used to, and the timing, angles and such. This experiment is useful to show the limitations of a tool. But remember it's not just about the weapon, but also the person using the weapon. Iow, we need more sample before we can make conclusion of mace's effectiveness against armor.
I wish each strike was followed by a close up still of each strike in succession. Also, an overhead mapview of each place of battle would be great as well
Also, it seems like a mace is a very good, less-then-lethal weapon against unarmored people? For example being the medieval version of the local police would be interested in maces I think? Cheap, easy to use, and wont instantly kill anyone that its used against.
Yeah, flanged maces would be absolutely brutal against unarmored opponents. For a truly non-lethal weapon just a simple wooden club would be used I imagine.
Have you ever gotten a concussion during sparring? If not, was it because of the effectiveness of the armour, or the amount of restraint used by both parties? I love your content by the way!
very interesting video, and well done. congrats of gaining 98.4k subscribers, your channel is growing fast. videos like this make me love history more, God bless you, Jesus loves you.
I am sorry. I will not. At the moment I am only interested in duels with thrusts, so no Buhurt at the moment. But some teammates will be there in the Buhurt team Decima, you will maybe recognize Niklas Wehrmann or Karsten from Decima in some of my videos.
Are you from Saxony? It looks like the type of forrest we have on our hills in North Bohemia... you know, Děčín region, Czech Schweiss next to Sachsische Schweiss....
Super interesting, where does the idea that mace is good against armor comes from if it is not true (at least in context of plate armour)? It is anti armour weapon in pretty much every video game, I myself am guilty of presenting it like this.
@@dequitem So if I go for realism as a modder / video game designer with a mace, it should be resonably efective against light (gambeson) and medium armor (mail) but against brigandine (or better) it should be good only against head or in mounted combat, probably with some knock down effect?
@@philozoraptor6808 If you are incorporating durability mechanics, the mace could be better than blades at lasting longer, but not providing any specific benefit beyond that.
@@philozoraptor6808 And a hit on the head from a mace, armoured or not, is at least going to leave a concussion and stun the enemy, making them easy pickings.
Good video, but I will point out that while maces are not the armour crushing damage dealers that videogames have them to be. Knights are the medieval version of tanks, and where treated them as such. Cripple their movement by shooting thier horses and then overwhelm them. Maces, as simple clubs were still the first choice of peasants due to lack of real weapons, hardened wood with iron spikes... if they could afford the iron. Considering that the vast majority of soldiers were lightly armoured a spiky club is a great, cheap, easy to manufacture weapon.
Are there any maces with spikes or dagger-like blades on the other end (grip end)? Though it might take away some of the striking mass on the mace end, I could see closing and using it to stab gaps in the armor could have worked.
I permanently have one question about the sizes of weapon reproductions. People were smaller in the middle ages than we are today. Shouldn't those reproductions be bigger and heavier as we grew up? Thank you for the excellent video and for sharing your experiences!
I think the same with longswords. They should be accordi g to our body size, but not all historical people where smaller, so we should use the bigger historical examples, but If you make a weapon test on historical shaped armor with a historical thickness it should be the same size, because we don't want to use thicker armor too.
Huh. Well, so full plate does make you a medieval tank after all. A question arises, how do you even kill a knight in a pitched battle, where you're supposed to fight in ranks and thus cannot go for the grapple+dagger where it hurts combo?
Mace is for joints and head not shoulderpads or gauntlets. there is literally nothing we have to pierce or dmg proper armor until gunpowder. but if a cav hits you with mace on gallop to head you be sure to instant brain smush. Also why jennissaries learned how to wrestle and slap is coz of european armor usage in warfare. i work on steelworks i did try many steels with heavy machinery on amazing forces couldnt even properly damage it at that point i realized fully clad armored soldiers are tanks of the era and there is no way to kill them properly. thats also why gunpower changed whole concept of using armor not just coz of range advance downs sides were so much more then using close quarter weapons but armor was ineffective on certain parts yes you can deflect arquebus bullet with proper thick breastplate but your limbs and head are no humanly way to be thick to deflect it. if you ask me in my head ofc most battles looks like wrestling in the mud and zerging down enemy with pointy sticks or daggers thats also why its amazingly brutal. in a way this conculusion explains how roman soldiers won or stand days in a circle without budging against poor opponents even scale type armors they wear hold so good against weapon of the era they literally can stand in formations it looks like armor is godlike against anyweapon man can wield until gunpowder. then all man become equal as samuel colt says.
Great comment! But maces can work against helmets and gauntlets, but don't work on joints. There are sources for it, especially for finger gauntlets. In the rest I absolutely agree. A helmet or armprotection will never be ready for a bullet.
Just wondering about the exhaustion factor when fighting in full plate. How long do you think a fit and well trained knight or man at arms could maintain an assault for, before having to retreat to recover?
Have you thought of simulating skirmishes or bigger battles ? I assume that wrestling on the ground will be less usefull if someone can strike your back while you try to stab with your dagger. I know there are 5v5 Battles but it seems more like MMA in Armor 😅
@@lingling5278 I have no armour and watching Dequitem's armour just tank blow after blow from poleaxes has really proven to me how little chance you stand in a fight against armour if you have none.
The thing is, if it was completely ineffective, they wouldn't have kept making them that way, so it must have had some effect when used correctly. I can see the angle of it being used as a non-lethal/less lethal option, but if that were the case, why would the heads have trended towards flanged designs and not instead towards bigger rounder designs that spread the force against the helmet to optimize towards knockouts? Concentrating the force onto those flanges is a design that feels explicitly focused on piercing rather than spreading the force to increase the overall impact I would wonder if maybe this is a situation where survivorship bias comes into play, where the surviving examples of helmets and armor that we have are ones that were the designs that were the most effective examples that were able to survive against these threats, while the wider majority of armor might have actually been vulnerable to this style of mace, and given that they would have been crushed in battle, and likely thrown away, we have no examples to show what the true effects would be. For example, cervellieres were probably insanely common, but maybe a handful of examples survive today, because no one saves common soldier gear. Perhaps instead it was a weapon for heavy knights to deal with medium weight armored infantry, ones in open faced helmets, mail shirts, brigandines, etc, as by the 15-16 century that sort of threat would have been more common. If you are a fully armored knight against a common grunt with a billhook or something, a mace is at a perfect range at which you get close enough that you are too close for him to use his weapon effectively, so he can't hurt you, but you can split his cheap kettle helm or pierce his mail shirt or break his unarmored knees no problem.
The flange is for prevent the mace from sliding of and transfer the force to the targets. Maces are rare weapons in the late middle ages and nearly only used on horseback, that didn't speak for its effectiveness!
Really intersing video and first of all i have to say that your craftsmanship is awesome and your mace design is awesome! Really love it with the spike! But i have three points to point out about your testing: First of all the length: yeah there are 50 cm maces, but there are also many german and indian maces that are 60 cm and longer, i dont understand why you stick with making it this short... Second point: your testing stand isnt connected and is really padded, so it disperses the impact way more then if it where on a human or a more "stable" target, you can see skillgram's mace testing against armor and see the results. The mace was used to bypass the armor not necessarily destroy it, and i am pretty sure you will get the devestating result to the guy under the armor and way more damage to the armor if you will use abit longer mace and a more stable testing stand
I tested another 1,3 kg mace with 67 cm length in a fight. You see some video fragments in the video and it didn't injure my opponent, same on his war hammer. I like skallagrims channel and videos but his armor tests are garbage because the armor he uses is not hardened and not an accurate shape. My test stand is a steel stand so it will be mor ridged in the first moment of a strike than a person, but of course when it fall of all the energy will dispair. Skalagrim
i wonder about, in a duel, being able to strike the back of the knee. there is no armour behind the knee, so how difficult is it to hook a swing to land behind the knee, to a resisting armoured opponent, to damage the knee and possibly immobilize with a single or just a couple blows
With the shape and length of the mace, I guess it would be very difficult to hit the back of the knee, unless you lean forwards a lot, exposing your back. I assume the lower-body target would rather be the side of the knee.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the most common material still iron or even low grade steel even in the 15th to 16th century? Couldn't that have had an effect on the effectiveness of maces compared to modern steel?
Of course that would effect the test. But the steel quality of knight armor in the 15th and 16th century was very high and some armors were even bulletproof to historical firearms. The steel quality you talk about is a problem in early and high medival armors, but there maces were much smaller!
so.. given the maces of the 12-1300s had smaller shafts and even lighter heads.. in the early ages of plate.. what do you forsee those even ligfhter maces doing.. yknow, when the head is like 300g of bronze.. even if its mostly mail with some plate..
I think one needs to take into account that people were much smaller back then. There are several local historical buildings from the 1600th century in my small town, and I'm always surprised by how small the people were. Granted I'm 198 cm tall, but still, they were small, it's alost like seeing a hobbit house, and the weapons were made to their size. So, scale up those weapons to a modern sized man.
Do you think a mace might be more effective against armour that was hardened in less consistent historical methods? Modern forging is almost close to perfect compared to in the middle ages.
I would love to see some 2v1s or 3v1s having poorly equipped individuals versus a full plate knight to compare various weapons vs weaker armor not sure if it would be safe to do though
@@dequitem With the same "honor rules" as with stabbing into gaps it *might* work, you could put modern padding underneath (like what is used for sparring) to dampen the blows rather than a fully rigid structure still, its your time and your health
Would the test maybe be more accurate if the armor piece is actually attached to a dummy or something that is more firmly in place? The fact that the stand does not have a lot of mass and can even fall over, and that the armor is able to bounce and flop around on that stand, means that a great deal more energy and damage potential from the mace is dissipated. Does that sound about right?
It's also a metal stand with much less flexibility than a real leg and the black padding isn't that much, so if you watch frame by frame the strikes hits the armor into the ground and most of the time the bouncing starts after the mace slides to the sides when it already gave nearly all it's power to the target, not optimal but there was no other results, when I tested it at home on a big tree first.
I have not read any mentions of using a mace during a battle or a small skirmish or I have seen some really few depictions of late medieval art depicting maces in battle, (if anyone knows various depictions feel free to recommend me), but I personally believe for such a weapon to still exist during these specific eras (mid 14th century - the entirety of the 15th and beyond ), it must have been used by people both in battle and sometimes, possibly in duels and not just on horseback. I believe (this is just my opinion, as I, again, say have not read any real life historical mentions of maces during battle), that they were used to knock armoured people off be it knights, men at arms or average civilians and peasants who could afford some plate armor , if they could knock them off at least and then either killing them with daggers or taking them for ransom, just as you said. It least that's my opinion for observing how the mace works and worked in mostly armored people.
There are some battle paintings with maces from the 16th century but not many from the 15th century. From the 15th century there is only one duel painting in my mind and I don't even know the name.
I'd imagine maces would be most effective against people wearing chainmail, gambeson, or other flexible armors. The most important factor for absorbing blunt force is dispersion, something that plate does extraordinarily well. Chainmail does very little to disperse energy and acts more as a way to stop cuts and stabs. And while gambeson is great at absorbing impacts, it likely isn't enough to stop bones from breaking when someone is hit by a mace.
There are quite a few depictions and accounts. One of the most interesting occurred on the 12th of June 1487, between Antonio Maria Sanseverino and Giovanni di Sonnenberg. Where the short version is they met for challenge between the two armies, Sanseverino managed to land a lance blow on Sonnenberg but lost control of his horse and ended up on foot, after receiving several blow from a sword from a still mounted Sonnenberg, Sanseverino managed to grab the cross and pull the sword away from Sonnenberg who then produced a mace from his saddle. Almost immediately Sanseverino protested how it was unfair Sonnenberg still had his horse and was using a mace. They ended up rearguing to terms where they continued on foot and Sonnenberg was not allowed to use his mace. Which says something about the mace, but unfortunately says almost nothing as well.
My first bigger colaboration is mayby something for you too. The HEMA equipment shop "Dominus Gladius" build a save flanged mace for my sparring and training.
dominusgladius.com/flanged-mace-ver.1/
wait is this real metal ?
You probably get this question a considerable amount, but where do you get armor from? As a United States citizen I am very interested in this subject.
@@angryeliteultragree6329 I forge my armor myself.
@@dequitem damn. I have to say that it is extremely well made.
@@dequitem Bruder in Christus, du kannst doch nicht einfach einen solchen Flex droppen. Aber im Ernst, sieht sehr gut aus und scheint ja auch super zu funktionieren. Cheers.
I used to be an adventurer like you. Then I took a mace to the knee, kept adventuring for another five years, met my wife and finally settled on a farm.
😅😅😅 Best comment so far!
🤣
I command your strength, sir. Kept adventuring for 5 years after a mace to the knee is no small feat
Blacksmith:" Don't let an arrow or a mace in your knee stop you from adventuring!! Premium grade steel knee guard on sale! A must for any adventurer!"
This show why pietro monte recommanded an ~ 90 cm "mace" with a head like a pollaxe, hand protection, and a grip long enough to allow two handed use (mostly used on horseback IIRC).
He recommanded targeting the head and the hands.
The only two techniques he describes are: "hold his weapon with your left hand and hit him hard" and "use your weapon with two hands and overpower the enemy".
Beautyfull techniques by Pietro Monte 😅
in other words:
"Let's mug 'em
Yeah, this is what Matt meant when he said maces are kind of simplistic. You could analyse it more and get into fancier techniques, but overall it's about hitting them like you're trying to murder a hippopotamus.
@@vanivanov9571 Or a horse.
According to another YT channel, Dutchess Skye, there is another source which describes the use of a typical one-handed mace in more detail and they pretty much said that it's possible to use it effectively, but it takes a great deal of skill because you need to be landing hits where there isn't an air gap between the armor and whoever's inside (the hands and the side of the helmet are just the obvious spots). He considerd it more difficult than just using a sword.
Dequitem is single-handedly carrying the sword community beyond the realms of theory and skill into the realms of realistic rehearsal, and it's really unbelievable how much useful information we can get out of this... So thank you very much Dequitem. I wish I was rich to pay you for the effort, but for now make no mistake; your value on RUclips for people who love fighting, historical fighting, everything armors, and weapons, cannot be praised enough. Thank you.
Also thank you to your friend/comrade/sparring partner for all the sparring he does, as it is a very important part of all the testing and such.
Cheers from Spain! 🗡️🙏
I couldn't agree more
This is so unexpected that such weapond doesn't deal much damage to the armor at all. thank you for sharing!
remember, against chainmail it will basically circumvent the chain, meaning its only dampened by the gambeson underneath, that and on horseback are where maces are effective
if i had to say most of the damage it'll do to plate is beneath the armor, like causing a concussion, unless there is some weaker articulating plate to crush like a fingered gauntlet, but luckily these guys wear some big mitten ones, ends up being pretty safe all around
It seems fairly obvious given any experience with combat sports. The issue with many weapon vs armor tests is that they don't account for the fact that a human isn't a rooted rigid target. So because a person will lean or move with the momentum of a blow the force transferred is drastically reduced.
Alot of our conceptions of how armor works has been influenced by media and videogames too
Like people believe longbows will punch through hardened steel plate.
Ripped some armour parts tho
there is nothing cooler to watch videos of my brother who randomly fights like a knight.
It's meant to give concussion.
A vomiting knight is easier to catch.
That mace is however very effective against mail.
This is such a cool channel
Thanks!
You are single handedly sparking my fascination with the nitty gritty detaisl of medieval combat, i have always loved the history, the wars, the people, but never thought about what it was like to fight your life in a duel as a knight. Love your videos and i will continue to support you by liking every video ans commenting on every one:)
Wow im more than a little surprised at how ineffective the mace is compared to what i imagined.
I have never seen content like this before on the internet.
4:28 bro just straight up steals his opponent's dagger lmao
My day is made better whenever I see you have a new video. Thank you for the great content! You are inspiring this buhurt fighter to get into Harnischfechten!
I am happy to hear that you also do both sports. Stay save and blodgeon some other fencers in my name
Amazing that you got sponsored! Youre very underrated youtuber, theres not many youtube channels that do lots of lessons and knight fighting in videos this fun to watch.
Loving these videos testing out different weapons and armor
This seems safe
Great content as usual Ser Dequitem
Awesom job. Putting your body to the hazard in the name of research
Thanks. I really appreciate the kind words from someone like you!
First wondered how this showed up in my feed. Now binge watching while “working” from home :)
Thanks. I appreciate your kind words.
I’ve always been fascinated by this type of dueling/warfare. I realize movies don’t constitute the most legitimate source for understanding how they really fought back then.
WHAT REALLY INTERESTS ME;
-What characteristics shaped and effectuated the most formidable and successful fighters???? Characteristics similar to what comprises a modern day professional athlete??
-What constituted the look of an authentic fight? Was it a dance of skill??? A bull rush of brutal strength??? Or more like a brawl, that ended up more a wrestling match?
-Did skill or strength dictate, or a combination of both?? What other traits made the best the best???
Thanks for any info. A video dedicated specifically these concepts would be absolutely enthralling.
The QUESTION BEING, Have we ever really seen what a truly authentic fight resembled from the Mid-evil times/Dark Ages????
I think I will make a full video to this topic one day.
Thank you! This was a very interesting test and a surprising (to me) result
Those armours are really fascinating
Another outstanding video 👍...When the leather strap tore from the rivet it answered a question i was going to say...in that straps and rivets are more vunerable than the armour itself and could, if damaged impact mobility etc...But good job you make your armour well 😁
Great video. Before seeing this, I allwyas thought flanged maces are especially made against armor. But a practical test, like you did it, is better than all theory.
Armor, yes, just not solid plate. It'd suck if you were wearing basically anything else.
@@colbyboucher6391 Always heard they were specifically made for use against other knights in plate armor on the ground.
Seems I was lied to.
@@SrenHolm-k3o Yep. More like used by cavalry to crack down on the heads of poor bloody infantry. There's exactly one historical source that mentions their use in armored combat and it essentially said "it's very hard, go for the joints".
Only discovered your channel not that long ago but man your vids are incredible, this channel is a hidden gem
Thanks!
It really makes sense that a one handed weapon wouldn't be the best choice to fight armor. But the question is, what about being hit with the blunt side of a poleaxe? Has to be even more unpleasant, no?
another thing that I don't know about. During such periods, plate armor was something from the elite. But how common was chainmail? or any other kind of armor, that wasn't as expensive. Because a mace would definitely make sense against such.
I'm just wondering if the purpose of weapons was based on which enemy they would find the most.
Plate armor was realy common in the 15th and 16th century, nearly every men in arms and every citizen of a town owned his own breastplate. It wasnt that expensive. Of course not every citizen own a full body armor but a breastplate, helmet and a spear.
I will make tests to the luzernhammer and poleaxe. soon.
@@dequitem Looking foward to it. Thanks for all the attention to the community!
@@dequitem I don't doubt it, honestly, that breastplates were relatively cheap given that they're one of the simpler components to make (compared to finely articulating lames, especially). Was it around the later parts of the 15th or so that having a breastplate became relatively common?
Chainmail is also quite expensive, it is incredibly labor intensive to make. Don't quote me on this, but I think in many cases chainmail would be more expensive than getting a couple of the most important pieces of plate.
@@TheLadderman I wouldn't be surprised at all if you were exactly right seeing how much work goes into mail. I just hadn't really thought about the relative inexpense of a simple breastplate, to be honest
Great video brother as always👍👍👍
Ah the weapon of a cleric. If we don't convince you to follow our lord. Our trusty mace will.
DND brainrot spotted!
@@Estuways What is the bigger brainrot? Referencing an age old RPG and fantasy trope or calling such a reference brainrot?
@@Baalur A wise question. But how old DND is doesn't make its pervasive stereotypes any less annoying.
@@Estuwaysyou call D&D brainrot and yet your channel is filled with TTRPG playlists… curious.
@@snappa_tv It's not like I despise DnD, basically, it's just that it has caused people to strongly associate concepts with each other that really have nothing to do with one another, such as maces and clecics.
A new Dequitem video, my week is complete and its only Thursday. (Also we need some 'Dequitem' merch).
mayby in future!😅
@@dequitem I want a 'This isn't LARPing, this is Dequitem' t/shirt.
It's very impressive that you go to such measures to replicate things, but are able to recognize that maybe some more modern developments in brain protection could be better, such as increased padding like you guys seem to be wearing, or ways to prevent blows from actually breaking eachothers neck.
More of this please!!
Reminds me of the failures of baton and club in unarmored defense. 4:08
Huh, I never really considered the idea of using a mace in mounted combat, but you make a some really good arguments for its use as such. I always learn something new, or get a different perspective on a topic from these weapon analysis videos. Great job once again.
Well, that really is where we see most historical examples mentioned. Striking down at some poor guy's head.
Thanks for the research
Your videos are so awesome! Love watching these :)
Found the video. Pretty good test. I do worry the armour is not fixed in place, however, so you'll get far less damage. You also ought to try sharpening those flanges, so they really bite in. Not safe for sparring, of course, but if you want to make a hideous dent, it'll help a lot.
Have to keep in mind that a one handed weapon against the best armour like trying to stop a tank with a hand-grenade--you can, but it's tricky. Same with daggers and swords--maile is not easy to pierce. Like Matt said in his response, maces are good against intermediate armour, as it's obvious to everyone that warhammers and picks are more dedicated anti-armour weapons.
The flanges are sharpened. It's not safe for sparring. The armor isn't equal to the better armor. It's mor mid quality armor. Only water hardened.
hell yeah new Dequitem drop
Man, I was lied to my whole life.
I thought the mace head would be bigger like fist size. Also thought they are at least 2KG and function like a pick with multiple edges. Guess it's used for chain mail?
Or heads only!
yeah, against hardened steel it's gonna do nothing, you need spring or carbon steel to simulate medieval plate realistically, hardened is too strong...
I wounder who would get the better advantage from helmet design, that gave better all round vision. So you no what your enemy is trying to do.
I always thought a mace would be a good side weapon for heavy cavalry as their height would give them access to the head, but I never realized how short maces were.
Maces were used by cataphracts.
Someone else noticed the ruin of Burg Regenstein in the background? 😄
Loved this video man, well done
Thank you. I love your videos too. We have to collaborate one day!
@@dequitemthat would be an absolute blast!
@@dashrendar5320 please contact me on my email (lennarddewitz@yahoo.de)
Try that with a 36 inch 8 lb head sledge hammer. I would find a longer handle if they exist Just test it on a shield where someone holds the shield and for the rest test on armor that is on a stand where you test downward shoulder upper shots near the helmet and one with maybe an old helmet on a stand.
You can block with a sledge hammer since most of the mass is in the head. You just move the handle around.
Also see if you can knock a shield out of someones hands if a swing of the hammer goes over the top and you immediatly try to graple the shield off with the hammer. Also try hitting someones hand through the shield and build up until they feel the shield is at the limit.
They dd sometimes use sledge-like mallets against knights--the same they hammered tent-pegs with.
There is kinda a diffrence between a single hand wood or rubber mallet and an 8 pound hammer head at 36 inches. Its not much of a question if a small mallet will hit hard enough to ignore armor. You kinda lose the whole point of being blunt if its going to also be light.
It would be really cool to give you horse riding lessons. Im curious what you could learn if you'd practice on horseback.
I can ride a horse and I had a horse some years ago, but I would never call me an expert there and I don't want to risk the health of a horse by experiment with them in non-choreographed stuff!
Your armor is OP...
I love this channel 😊😊😊
the principale difference is taht attached on your boduly this piece of metal can't flip and deflect.part of the energy recieved
Awesome video! What about a similar video but for the Bec de corbin or a pollaxe?
Already planned!
@@dequitem Looking forward!!!!
Great video! I know you say it's intuitive but I think you should use it more as if you are going for a knockout punch i.e plant your feet, torque from the legs and hips and strike through the target rather than using more upper body and arms hitting at the target. (This is all conjecture as I've never used a mace just going off boxing experience and not meaning any offence!).
I watched a lot of your videos and it seems that even the weapons that where designed for killing knhights in armor( polehammer, warflail, maces and noble axe) where less usefull than a good wrestling skills plus dagger combination 😮
it’s crazy how strong were these plate armors 😅
A must have indeed😊
What about morning stars?
Some would say fist is an ineffective weapon too, and it's mostly true. Most men don't know how to throw a punch, even when one do, human hand is too fragile to last in almost any combative scenario. But then we got certain people who can end a fight within seconds with punches when certain conditons met, but it's not because their hand are different from other human, they're just flesh and bone, it's the body mechanic they're used to, and the timing, angles and such. This experiment is useful to show the limitations of a tool. But remember it's not just about the weapon, but also the person using the weapon. Iow, we need more sample before we can make conclusion of mace's effectiveness against armor.
I can strike hard, but mayby there are people that are build different and strike much harder 😅
I wish each strike was followed by a close up still of each strike in succession. Also, an overhead mapview of each place of battle would be great as well
Awesome video... more please!
Sadly I can't make close ups with my camera the focus didn't work there is a big crack.
Also, it seems like a mace is a very good, less-then-lethal weapon against unarmored people? For example being the medieval version of the local police would be interested in maces I think? Cheap, easy to use, and wont instantly kill anyone that its used against.
One problem. Theses flanged maces will instantly kill all unarmored people and most police man don't fight knights to arrest them.
Yeah, flanged maces would be absolutely brutal against unarmored opponents. For a truly non-lethal weapon just a simple wooden club would be used I imagine.
I wonder if somehow we had RUclips back in those times, knights would also have RUclips channels.
I can only imagine the trash talk before tourneys.
I love those spaulders of yours. Are they based off of any particular example?
Not particularly... More likely inspired by some spaulders.
Have you ever gotten a concussion during sparring? If not, was it because of the effectiveness of the armour, or the amount of restraint used by both parties? I love your content by the way!
I had a headache after my fights against flails. Is that enough?
@@dequitem yes, thank you
@@dequitem Flails are like real scary uncontrollable weapons! You're like the Jackie Chan of medieval sparing! ;)
very interesting video, and well done. congrats of gaining 98.4k subscribers, your channel is growing fast. videos like this make me love history more, God bless you, Jesus loves you.
Thank you and God will be with you.
What's something that you'd want to try, but can't for safety reasons?
Fight a knight with a fork and no armor, like a real peasant.
About safety in general, have you had any injuries from being hit in training or fights?
Yes some broken bones.
@@dequitem You give everything to discover the truth. 👍
Another great video. Thanks for sharing.
Will you be at the Way of Honour Buhurt competition in August?
I am sorry. I will not. At the moment I am only interested in duels with thrusts, so no Buhurt at the moment. But some teammates will be there in the Buhurt team Decima, you will maybe recognize Niklas Wehrmann or Karsten from Decima in some of my videos.
@@dequitem Yes. I will be there captaining The Northern Wolves this year so hopefully will get chance to catch up with them
Before i finish the video... Yes, but terms & conditions applied.
I am happy that my opinion matters to you!
Are you from Saxony? It looks like the type of forrest we have on our hills in North Bohemia... you know, Děčín region, Czech Schweiss next to Sachsische Schweiss....
It's from Harz in Saxony-Anhalt.
Super interesting, where does the idea that mace is good against armor comes from if it is not true (at least in context of plate armour)? It is anti armour weapon in pretty much every video game, I myself am guilty of presenting it like this.
The problem is. There is no anti armor weapon. So the mace is okay against armored man, because there no perfect options 😅
@@dequitem So if I go for realism as a modder / video game designer with a mace, it should be resonably efective against light (gambeson) and medium armor (mail) but against brigandine (or better) it should be good only against head or in mounted combat, probably with some knock down effect?
@@philozoraptor6808 If you are incorporating durability mechanics, the mace could be better than blades at lasting longer, but not providing any specific benefit beyond that.
@@philozoraptor6808 And a hit on the head from a mace, armoured or not, is at least going to leave a concussion and stun the enemy, making them easy pickings.
Good video, but I will point out that while maces are not the armour crushing damage dealers that videogames have them to be. Knights are the medieval version of tanks, and where treated them as such. Cripple their movement by shooting thier horses and then overwhelm them.
Maces, as simple clubs were still the first choice of peasants due to lack of real weapons, hardened wood with iron spikes... if they could afford the iron. Considering that the vast majority of soldiers were lightly armoured a spiky club is a great, cheap, easy to manufacture weapon.
from what i seen in buhurt only the two handed axes/poleaxe are able too that
test in the next video :D
epic.
Soon to be legend ⚔️
Are there any maces with spikes or dagger-like blades on the other end (grip end)? Though it might take away some of the striking mass on the mace end, I could see closing and using it to stab gaps in the armor could have worked.
Seems dangerous for the wearer himself while hitting.
Can you do some weapon tests against titanium armour?
Aqua sent me here!
I permanently have one question about the sizes of weapon reproductions. People were smaller in the middle ages than we are today. Shouldn't those reproductions be bigger and heavier as we grew up?
Thank you for the excellent video and for sharing your experiences!
I think the same with longswords. They should be accordi g to our body size, but not all historical people where smaller, so we should use the bigger historical examples, but If you make a weapon test on historical shaped armor with a historical thickness it should be the same size, because we don't want to use thicker armor too.
Huh. Well, so full plate does make you a medieval tank after all. A question arises, how do you even kill a knight in a pitched battle, where you're supposed to fight in ranks and thus cannot go for the grapple+dagger where it hurts combo?
Not that easy!
pole weapons, with an ax head
would a morningstar be much different than a flanged mace, the morningstar appears to have better spikes for piercing
Yes but lesser force to a strike and to dangerous as a secondary weapon on your belt and that's what a mace is for.
"Bash 'em, lads!"
good, thank you
Mace is for joints and head not shoulderpads or gauntlets. there is literally nothing we have to pierce or dmg proper armor until gunpowder. but if a cav hits you with mace on gallop to head you be sure to instant brain smush. Also why jennissaries learned how to wrestle and slap is coz of european armor usage in warfare. i work on steelworks i did try many steels with heavy machinery on amazing forces couldnt even properly damage it at that point i realized fully clad armored soldiers are tanks of the era and there is no way to kill them properly. thats also why gunpower changed whole concept of using armor not just coz of range advance downs sides were so much more then using close quarter weapons but armor was ineffective on certain parts yes you can deflect arquebus bullet with proper thick breastplate but your limbs and head are no humanly way to be thick to deflect it. if you ask me in my head ofc most battles looks like wrestling in the mud and zerging down enemy with pointy sticks or daggers thats also why its amazingly brutal. in a way this conculusion explains how roman soldiers won or stand days in a circle without budging against poor opponents even scale type armors they wear hold so good against weapon of the era they literally can stand in formations it looks like armor is godlike against anyweapon man can wield until gunpowder. then all man become equal as samuel colt says.
Great comment! But maces can work against helmets and gauntlets, but don't work on joints. There are sources for it, especially for finger gauntlets. In the rest I absolutely agree. A helmet or armprotection will never be ready for a bullet.
@@dequitem Thank you for reply how it doesnt work on joints? yes fingers can be broken i see what you mean now.
Maybe they used it against weakly armoured opponents, peasantry or such, I don't know 😅
Just wondering about the exhaustion factor when fighting in full plate. How long do you think a fit and well trained knight or man at arms could maintain an assault for, before having to retreat to recover?
Depends. In a duel 3 to 5 minutes sind a battle hours!
Hey Dequitem, I really enjoy your videos they are visualy very interresting and informativ. Wich steel did you use for the mace and Armor?
C60 or C75.
Have you thought of simulating skirmishes or bigger battles ? I assume that wrestling on the ground will be less usefull if someone can strike your back while you try to stab with your dagger.
I know there are 5v5 Battles but it seems more like MMA in Armor 😅
We tested a 3 vs 3 and it was already to dangerous to fight in that style without rules to a theoretical death.
Just wondering where you do your fighting, I always think the locations look great.
Somewhere in the woods.
Assassin! Your planning to assassinate dequitem🤣👉
@@lingling5278 I have no armour and watching Dequitem's armour just tank blow after blow from poleaxes has really proven to me how little chance you stand in a fight against armour if you have none.
@@EvidensInsania that's what an assassin would say 🤣👉
The thing is, if it was completely ineffective, they wouldn't have kept making them that way, so it must have had some effect when used correctly.
I can see the angle of it being used as a non-lethal/less lethal option, but if that were the case, why would the heads have trended towards flanged designs and not instead towards bigger rounder designs that spread the force against the helmet to optimize towards knockouts? Concentrating the force onto those flanges is a design that feels explicitly focused on piercing rather than spreading the force to increase the overall impact
I would wonder if maybe this is a situation where survivorship bias comes into play, where the surviving examples of helmets and armor that we have are ones that were the designs that were the most effective examples that were able to survive against these threats, while the wider majority of armor might have actually been vulnerable to this style of mace, and given that they would have been crushed in battle, and likely thrown away, we have no examples to show what the true effects would be.
For example, cervellieres were probably insanely common, but maybe a handful of examples survive today, because no one saves common soldier gear.
Perhaps instead it was a weapon for heavy knights to deal with medium weight armored infantry, ones in open faced helmets, mail shirts, brigandines, etc, as by the 15-16 century that sort of threat would have been more common. If you are a fully armored knight against a common grunt with a billhook or something, a mace is at a perfect range at which you get close enough that you are too close for him to use his weapon effectively, so he can't hurt you, but you can split his cheap kettle helm or pierce his mail shirt or break his unarmored knees no problem.
The flange is for prevent the mace from sliding of and transfer the force to the targets.
Maces are rare weapons in the late middle ages and nearly only used on horseback, that didn't speak for its effectiveness!
Really intersing video and first of all i have to say that your craftsmanship is awesome and your mace design is awesome! Really love it with the spike!
But i have three points to point out about your testing:
First of all the length: yeah there are 50 cm maces, but there are also many german and indian maces that are 60 cm and longer, i dont understand why you stick with making it this short...
Second point: your testing stand isnt connected and is really padded, so it disperses the impact way more then if it where on a human or a more "stable" target, you can see skillgram's mace testing against armor and see the results.
The mace was used to bypass the armor not necessarily destroy it, and i am pretty sure you will get the devestating result to the guy under the armor and way more damage to the armor if you will use abit longer mace and a more stable testing stand
I tested another 1,3 kg mace with 67 cm length in a fight. You see some video fragments in the video and it didn't injure my opponent, same on his war hammer.
I like skallagrims channel and videos but his armor tests are garbage because the armor he uses is not hardened and not an accurate shape. My test stand is a steel stand so it will be mor ridged in the first moment of a strike than a person, but of course when it fall of all the energy will dispair.
Skalagrim
A mace hit might not outright destroy armor, but it's gotta hurt a lot.
i wonder about, in a duel, being able to strike the back of the knee. there is no armour behind the knee, so how difficult is it to hook a swing to land behind the knee, to a resisting armoured opponent, to damage the knee and possibly immobilize with a single or just a couple blows
With the leaf on the knee plates it's nearly impossible.
With the shape and length of the mace, I guess it would be very difficult to hit the back of the knee, unless you lean forwards a lot, exposing your back. I assume the lower-body target would rather be the side of the knee.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the most common material still iron or even low grade steel even in the 15th to 16th century? Couldn't that have had an effect on the effectiveness of maces compared to modern steel?
Of course that would effect the test. But the steel quality of knight armor in the 15th and 16th century was very high and some armors were even bulletproof to historical firearms.
The steel quality you talk about is a problem in early and high medival armors, but there maces were much smaller!
so.. given the maces of the 12-1300s had smaller shafts and even lighter heads..
in the early ages of plate.. what do you forsee those even ligfhter maces doing.. yknow, when the head is like 300g of bronze.. even if its mostly mail with some plate..
There I have the feeling that's more against unarmored to capture them. But I am not sure!
I think one needs to take into account that people were much smaller back then. There are several local historical buildings from the 1600th century in my small town, and I'm always surprised by how small the people were. Granted I'm 198 cm tall, but still, they were small, it's alost like seeing a hobbit house, and the weapons were made to their size. So, scale up those weapons to a modern sized man.
Do you think a mace might be more effective against armour that was hardened in less consistent historical methods? Modern forging is almost close to perfect compared to in the middle ages.
No, because my armor is water hardened and this is already inconsistent.
I would love to see some 2v1s or 3v1s having poorly equipped individuals versus a full plate knight to compare various weapons vs weaker armor
not sure if it would be safe to do though
Mayby with some hidden protection, but than it has no real meaning for a conclusion.
@@dequitem With the same "honor rules" as with stabbing into gaps it *might* work, you could put modern padding underneath (like what is used for sparring) to dampen the blows rather than a fully rigid structure
still, its your time and your health
These maces seem like administrative weapons for baliffs. They didnt want to kill criminals without trial.
Why not use the big Flanged Mace that can be wielded with 2 hands???? Those seem more effective. More weight, more damage.
But than a poleaxe would be better.
Would the test maybe be more accurate if the armor piece is actually attached to a dummy or something that is more firmly in place? The fact that the stand does not have a lot of mass and can even fall over, and that the armor is able to bounce and flop around on that stand, means that a great deal more energy and damage potential from the mace is dissipated. Does that sound about right?
It's also a metal stand with much less flexibility than a real leg and the black padding isn't that much, so if you watch frame by frame the strikes hits the armor into the ground and most of the time the bouncing starts after the mace slides to the sides when it already gave nearly all it's power to the target, not optimal but there was no other results, when I tested it at home on a big tree first.
So if maces aren't powerful enough to be good at armored fighting and aren't long enough to be good at unarmored fighting, what are they for?
Like I talked about in the video. Fighting from a horseback!
I have not read any mentions of using a mace during a battle or a small skirmish or I have seen some really few depictions of late medieval art depicting maces in battle, (if anyone knows various depictions feel free to recommend me), but I personally believe for such a weapon to still exist during these specific eras (mid 14th century - the entirety of the 15th and beyond ), it must have been used by people both in battle and sometimes, possibly in duels and not just on horseback.
I believe (this is just my opinion, as I, again, say have not read any real life historical mentions of maces during battle), that they were used to knock armoured people off be it knights, men at arms or average civilians and peasants who could afford some plate armor , if they could knock them off at least and then either killing them with daggers or taking them for ransom, just as you said.
It least that's my opinion for observing how the mace works and worked in mostly armored people.
There are some battle paintings with maces from the 16th century but not many from the 15th century. From the 15th century there is only one duel painting in my mind and I don't even know the name.
I'd imagine maces would be most effective against people wearing chainmail, gambeson, or other flexible armors. The most important factor for absorbing blunt force is dispersion, something that plate does extraordinarily well. Chainmail does very little to disperse energy and acts more as a way to stop cuts and stabs. And while gambeson is great at absorbing impacts, it likely isn't enough to stop bones from breaking when someone is hit by a mace.
There are quite a few depictions and accounts.
One of the most interesting occurred on the 12th of June 1487, between Antonio Maria Sanseverino and Giovanni di Sonnenberg. Where the short version is they met for challenge between the two armies, Sanseverino managed to land a lance blow on Sonnenberg but lost control of his horse and ended up on foot, after receiving several blow from a sword from a still mounted Sonnenberg, Sanseverino managed to grab the cross and pull the sword away from Sonnenberg who then produced a mace from his saddle. Almost immediately Sanseverino protested how it was unfair Sonnenberg still had his horse and was using a mace. They ended up rearguing to terms where they continued on foot and Sonnenberg was not allowed to use his mace. Which says something about the mace, but unfortunately says almost nothing as well.
Good job 👍
The mace doing not that much makes more sense to me when I realize the armor is made of the same metal and is hardened similarly.
That's how armor was made historicaly, so what do we expect 😅
Is staff mace weapon a good idea? bludgeoning DMG+longer range.
Not realy! Than it's better to take a Mordaxt/poleaxe.
Hod you lose a duel if both of you are fully armored
I've watched this video like 9 times
I hope it is still interesting after 9 times watching it.
@@dequitem it is. You're getting up there at the top with Skallagrim on your educational content