For anyone that might question the force of Todd's blows due to lack of damage on the armor . . . he is a professional blacksmith, if there is anything he knows how to do it's swing a blunt weapon with force and precision.
@@EQOAnostalgia Well, full plate would protect you quite well from that unless you've got hit in the head. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that mace wearing only mail though, I'm pretty sure it could easily break a rib or two and cause some serious internal damage.
My dad is a retired blacksmith. Blacksmiths are much stronger than they look as well. Nothing like a body builder look, but swinging steel for hours a day will definitely give you some big arm muscles.
The little mace head reminds me of a display of Viking axes, and these axe heads were very tiny, like smaller than a clenched fist. People were making fun of how tiny the axe blades were, and the historian in charge very wisely pointed out: "instead of laughing at how small these weapons were, you should be horrified to realize that these tiny weapons were all you needed to kill another human being."
Something tells me the Vikings had a much better understanding of what works best to kill someone in medieval combat than a bunch of modern era couch potatoes.
@@wesjanson6979 as always people like BIG things but nobody think about the fact that not all Vikings were from Strongman competition and people were just people, big metal things weigh a lot, and big war hammers would just exhaust you very fast
I have a splitting axe that weighs 4 pounds (all in the head) and I dare anyone to try to swing it one-handed. These weapons had to be small it's the only way they could be wielded at all.
Afaik the reason the Lich kings Flail and Saurons Mace where made so obviously, massively and impractically oversized was just specifically to make them *look* intimidating for the movie the Weapons were purposefully made oversized, despite some on set wanting otherwise for the sole purpose of looking imposing. In other words; Saurons Mace isn't build for fighting, it's made for looks. He'd be a lot less scary looking with the mace tod is holding! XD
@@A.F.M.B.1234 Todd and all of us know that. You have to put yourself into the movie for the joke to be funny. Notice Todd said "Sauron is terrible at designing weapons" not "the propmaster is terrible at designing weapons".
From a physics perspective, firstly all piercing weapons (armour or flesh) are force concentrators. But the logic behind the mace is in large part to avoid skipping or glancing blows. A glancing blow will see a lot of the momentum and energy continue, as we saw very well in the longbow series. That of course wastes the energy of the attack. The spikes on a mace will dig into the armour ever so slightly which provides much more purchase and helps reduce the glancing blow. As we can imagine, once the armour is dented (even a small dent) the force moving into the armour will strongly resist any lateral forces trying to skip the mace away, especially compared to its undented domed shape. The polearm having the square hammer with 4 spikes is a particularly effective shape for that, possibly why we tend to see it more often as plated armour becomes more common. As an aside, I'd wonder if we could see the effects of maces vs various armour types well on a ballistics lab dummy. They're very often misused, but this seems an ideal purpose for one. Of course assuming you can get a youtuber deal as they often seem to do - it would be a very expensive answer to a curiosity otherwise.
The force concentration/delivery makes perfect sense. It's a bit like putting walnuts in a bag, then smacking the bag with a mallet or rolling pin to break up the shells. You don't care if the bag splits, you just want the shells broken.
He is right ... and wrong... the flanges act like football cleats giving traction and sticking on say ... the helmet of another knight instead of glancing off.
Then again, IF a weapon is designed to penetrate armour, doesn't it also do that by concentrating the force on one point? So calling these maces "force concentrators" is redundant and misleading.
Armor penetration is kind of a relative term, if your weapon is designed to do blunt force trauma past armor then you're effectively bypassing it. Against a guys head, armored or not, this would be massively effective at stunning or knocking him senseless... Far more effective than a blade against armored opponents.
I think mainly what hammers and maces were probably intended to hit a targets head. This makes me wonder now if helmets were made the same thickness as the rest of the armor. I heard once that picks were designed for horseback and the rider could go around hitting everyone in the head very easily but so far I've only seen one video where even one with a long handle couldn't go through plate. Maybe it was only for the unfortunates who didn't have helmets.
I’d honestly prefer a sword against armour, you can stab into the chainmail, weakpoints or force it through the gaps. Whereas a mace basically can’t do anything to plate armour, ignoring the rest of course, unless they hit the head which would force them to be very predictable.
@pyrrhusofepirus8491 You know most maces we think of were designed specifically for plate. We're talking organ shattering concussion damage alone. But even still, the accounts talk about knights basically beating helmets into tin pulp and watching the blood & brains ooze out the cracks. There's a reason in armored combat swords were considered a sidearm.
@@joeytodd795 Maces weren’t designed for plate they’d already existed long before it, moreover, as I said, the head, rest of the body I don’t see much happening at all nor them feeling it much at all if that. Moreover, I’d like to ask whether these knights were in full helms and in combat stance as opposed to being incapacitated and unable to fight back, at which point the mace wielder just starts wailing on them. I don’t really see maces as anymore of a “sidearm” than an axe or sword.
@@pyrrhusofepirus8491 maneuvering a sword in close combat to effectively stab into weakpoints is, frankly, unrealistic and too difficult to accurately achieve repeatedly against struggling enemies. Whacking dudes with a mace on the other hand, quite easy especially under duress. Even if a mace doesn't warp the helmet, you are ringing their bell and you can still break bone past armor... ask any fans of bohurt why maces have limitations on their weight and why they often use heavy 'blunt' blades that don't have weight restrictions. In close quarters, using a sword against an armored opponent would be far less effective than a dagger because of the ease of maneuvering and the fact that if you tackle an enemy certain daggers have been known to be able to pierce mild steel just by pressing down with your mass... let alone the ease of stabbing weakpoints at that range far outclassing a sword. Once you are within a weapons range, using a weapon better suited for close in, you've negated your opponents advantage... which armor already negated if you are using a sword.
Would love to see you add a clay strike face behind the armor whenever you're testing impact. It would help illustrate how much force makes it through the armor. Clay is used in the same way to test back face deformation for modern ballistic panels and plates.
@@handroids1981 It's possible that Tod's subscriber base is approaching the point where he might be able to land some sort of product placement deal with makers of said ballistic dummies. I doubt Garand Thumb is going out of pocket for the dummies he's shooting to pieces most videos.
@@vanivanov9571 Agreed and the ballistic dummies wouldn't show anything anyway, they're intended provide a consistent medium to measure bullet wound cavities, not stabbing/blunt weapons.
Similar to some other comments, it would be very interesting to see the armor overlayed on a ballistic dummy or some other sort of tissue analog. Or even using some type of force measuring device under the armor to see how much of the force from the impact would be passed on to the wearer. I have a feeling the chap just wearing the mail would have a couple broken ribs after meeting that mace on the battlefield. Keep up the great work!
I was wondering the same thing. All of that force concentrated on one point - surely underlying tissue and bone would take a pounding. Would certainly be a cool experiment with ballistic gel or similar..
As I watch more about maces in medieval war.. I think main target is head (helmets) collarbone (shoulder even under plate armor) and limbs and joints. All places where bones are close and not covered with muscle and heavy padding. Any broken bone will finish the fight.
I also tend to think, at least later when armor became more and more intricately articulated, that the point wasn't to pierce the armor but to seize it up. You could see how the longbow was capable of it in the arrows vs armor update they did. You didn't have to kill or even wound an enemy knight to remove him from the battle; if he couldn't move his arm he couldn't swing a sword and thus was a non-factor from that point on.
@@tacothunderking4558 your point is coherent but I doubt armour was that tight fitting and knit together as to be able to be rendered inoperable that way. You are thinking about Tourney suits instead of field ones.
Gear grinder - I would say that some of the impacts in Arrows vs Armour 2 caused curls of material to be pushed in and in the way of the plate articulation. It would have been distracting to the wearer for certain and possibly would have hindered movement. Big dents and deformations at the elbow and shoulder joints from this mace would certainly cause movement problems to some degree
I really hope you see this! In short, I'm a Marine, when they choose Kevlars for us one of the things they look at is the amount of back face deformation after a bullet impacts. Just because the helmet stops a projectile doesn't mean it won't kill you, if it creates enough of a bulge (deformation) it can still crack your skull or worse. I know these weren't meant to pierce armor around the torso and whatnot, that's obvious, but I would love to see what it could to to the skull specifically with the helms they used in the given time. Maybe something with Ballistic Dummy Labs for a good comparison? Always enjoy the content, you're one of the best in the field. Can't wait to see more!
I have always thought that the point of the "spikes" as it were, was to stop the mace head from skidding off of the armour so you could actually put the force in to the thing you are hitting at the end of the day, still wouldnt want one wrapped round the side of my head
That was always my assumption as well, like the teeth on a warhammer face they bite in and concentrate the force. In a modern context of applying batons to arses, this is called 'Pain Compliance' and it really does the job on basically anywhere but the head and neck, in which case they will probably be very ineffective in short order. Everyone wants to play, but with enough broken fingers, smashed elbows and knee caps or a nut shot and its soon no fun at all.
Partially, yes, but if that were its purpose you'd see them coated to increase friction i'd reckon. The main focus I think was on bone. Skulls are quite hard to break for example, as the force is spread around like the breastplate. If it is concentrated though, it will shatter. Same is true for the other bones. The flesh helps spread the force, so concentrating it makes it easier to break it. And that's what you want with a mace, shattered bones and internal bleeding, and maximizing debilitating pain.
I agree! If you put a pointed/spiked area it would both concentrate the force to a narrow surface area AND prevent slipping. As Tod demonstrates I don’t think they’re meant to penetrate plate or sheets of steel, but damn you’re gonna feel it through the armour 😮💨😅
I would think that the pointed flanges, even though they don't penetrate, could increase the chance of a broken rib or a damaged organ. Kinda like how even though a shotgun might not penetrate modern body armor, the impact at a single point can still be very damaging.
You should also never forget that while a mace would hurt massivly with gambison the best way is to get a solid smack to the head. And while you can catch incredibly amount of force with a good helmet and soft cap underneath, the weak link in that is the brain that starts swashing around from the impact. So yeah, that things are dangerous...
Having suffered a blunt trauma injury to the forearm, I can say penetration of the armor, or even the skin, is not required. If the injured person goes into shock, or suffers a concussion, the fight is pretty much over.
Blunt force trauma can cause internal bleeding, Hemorrhage, bruising, broken bones and more. It's not always what you are that can kill you. Sometimes it's what you can't see that does you in. Internal bleeding comes to mind.
Tod is such a treasure. His enthusiasm is great; and the maces are so cool. I'm surprised how small they are; but I certainly wouldn't like to meet the business end of them. The slo-mo footage is certainly instructive; what a thump! Tod, "Ooh, look at that!" Mace to the 'nards! 😲💀
The mace didn't need to be very large to split skulls. But it did need to be handy enough to swing for hours on end on the battlefield. Anything much larger, and it wouldn't have been viable
One important detail here is that it was often a cavalry weapon, the museum web page even confirms it. Which means the momentum and energy of the impact would be massive, as long as you land a solid hit. And that's what these weapons are designed to do - maximize the probability of getting a solid hit, as opposed to glancing off. Either by biting into armor, or by landing with multiple spikes. You just want to take 'luck' out of the equation, and make sure that your attack from horseback is guaranteed to be lethal, even against armor designed to maximize the chances of attacks glancing away. Though I'm not saying it would be a bad weapon on foot. The same principle still applies, just there's a good chance you won't lay an opponent dead with a single hit if they're wearing full plate armor. Also, I imagine even if you're wearing the best armor available, taking a flanged mace hit to your arm or hand would be brutal (I mean compared to other one-handed weapons).
it could be used in that function, when a lance was lost in the first engagement and you have to prepare for a second charge. more likely though is this is the "sidearm" drawn when a melee developed between other cavalry milling around each other or when deep in an infantry formation and you drop your lance. in both occasions cavalry vs cavalry or cavalry vs footman the horse will be fairly stationary and therefore not provide extra momentum to the blow. some momentum could be added from swinging down onto the top of infantry from the elevated position atop the horse, but in general the seated position on a horse is LESS conducive to full body power transfer than being well grounded on two feet and less stable so a stationary strike from a horseman will probably be a lot weaker than even the same man could deliver while standing on the ground. also consider that its the horsemans mace, whether that means it was "only effective or best used from a horse", or whether it meant only the rich who could afford a horse were the only people who could afford such a weapon with its fanciful construction, when a footman would more likely have a polearm with some sort of rondel dagger or multi-purpose bladed weapon as a sidearm, or just a less expensive blunt weapon
I think it really depends on the situation. First, you should remember that big battles are just a tiny fraction of all warfare - much of it is small skirmishes, sieges, etc. A knight (or any other cavalry) would have different weapons for different situations. A lance might be preferred for battle against enemy cavalry or professional footmen, but another weapon might be preferred for skirmishes, riding enemy supply lines, dealing with peasants, militia, bandits etc. Even on a battlefield the situation can vary a lot. I think with cavalry, often the assumption was that enemy will break formation when the cavalry charge hits them, at which point a short weapon was often more useful than a lance, since you can easily strike many opponents in quick succession, as they flee or attempt to fight back in a disorganized manner. This may not always work, but it often did, since commanders would send the cavalry where they expect this tactic to work. Btw. the idea that 'you just target the horse'... simple in theory, but (as many youtubers and history enthusiasts have already talked about it), very hard to pull off in practice. Imagine a car that is going fast in your direction... and you're told to just hold the line, and attack the car as it gets close. "Just shoot the tires, or the driver" or something. Yeah... some armies were able to hold their line against cavalry without breaking formation, but they were the exception, not the norm. I wonder how people practiced to get prepared for such scenarios, did they make 'practice charges' to get the footmen mentally prepared? In any case, I don't think a cavalryman would ever want a situation where their horse is 'fairly stationary' while surrounded by enemies. As a horseman, your primary defense is being on the move, as otherwise enemies could hit you from all sides, and you have no way to defend against that. So, even if you're deep into enemy lines or 'milling around' with enemy cavalry, you would still want to push forward at least quickly enough, that no enemy can get you from behind. In fact, if you end up surrounded by enemy infantry, I imagine you'd order your horse to go as fast as it can forward, trampling anyone and anything, until you can break out. So I can't really imagine many scenarios where a horseman would be stationary while fighting. That's a scenario you desperately want to avoid. And you have a horse that is specifically trained and equipped to avoid that. I recommend Jason Kingsley's channel (Modern History TV) as he makes a lot of cavalry-related content, including for example his recent practices with Lindybeige where they assess various footman vs horseman scenarios.
Just because a knight is carrying a weapon on horseback that does not mean the weapon is supposed to be used on horseback Following your logic they also used daggers on horseback That does not mean the mace couldn't be used but it's highly unlikely to be your first choice, and most of the literature and art we have show maces being used on foot as well, most likely it was a sidearm for foot combat We do have a lot of art for flails being used on horseback though
Also interesting, the mace with the face has the face-side with no spikes, which gives you an easy way to just put it in your belt with no spikes poking your side. Probably just a side effect though
That's a good point. You wouldn't want them digging in or bouncing off your knee as you walk. I wonder how maces are generally transported? I guess that they are a weapon of war rather than ever-day-carry.
@@euansmith3699 I'd guess a belt loop would suffice in the field, so you'd just have the shaft bouncing around. But you'd be wearing thick padding all around you, doubt the shaft would hurt that much. But this got me thinking - did knights wear all of their armour all the time, or would something like gambeson, mail and sidearm suffice when on a march with a big army? Then dress up in plates and full war gear when a battle was imminent. I'm in the understanding that knights had assistants with them, who would lug around most of their stuff and help gearing up; I'd keep the mace with the other weapons and gear until gearing up for battle. I think in the crusades knight would wear full gear while on the march, as horse archers could use hit-and-run tactics etc, but was this the norm back in Europe? Did they need to be ready for action all the time? Field battles were pretty rare anyways. E: Of course levies and lower ranks of soldiers would carry pretty much everything they have all the time.
@@euansmith3699 There is a thing called a "frog" used for axes and maces. Its basically a piece of leather that hangs off your belt (much like a belt pouch would) that would have a ring on it. You drop the haft through the ring. The version for swords/daggers had laces to secure a sheath/scabbard. Though you could also just jam it in your belt it wouldn't be very comfy or easy to draw.
First of all, I’ve decided I want to be Tod when I grow up. The shear joy you bring to the videos makes them fun to watch. Second, please please please show us some videos of you actually crafting some of these pieces. You talk about the construction process but I think it would be amazing to watch the creation of these items along with you explaining why it was done a particular way. Keep up the amazing work!
I'm guessing that pretty much the main target would be the head. The helmets rounded, so they add pointy flanges, so it bites. You knock the guy a few times, he gets a concussion and goes night night for a while. That, or just like the bow, you hit the thinner joints or articulations and make them seize up. The collarbone region would probably also be vulnerable since they snap relatively easily.
I have never used a real mace against human targets, but I was trained in riot control using a riot baton. Aside from the legally banned targets of the skull, face, throat (and the whole neck), solar plexus, groin and over the heart... There were the recommended targets such as knees, elbows and wrists. Striking a joint with concentrated force inflicts a lot of pain (and can inflict a moderate injury) and that pain will at least momentarily take the rioter out of their violence. Then you drag them behind the front line for the support lines to do the cuff and transport. - So it seems that using a mace in combat would be similar, with the riot control 'illegal' targets back on the menu. And the point is not the mace kill, but the reduction of your opponent to a stunned ball of pain who will either surrender or be the victim of your rondel dagger depending on your rules of engagement.
It'd be interesting to see "side by side" comparisons of how this mace handles relative to contemporary single handed axes and swords. I've heard video games get it wrong, but I'd like to see how far off they really are.
Extremely far off, or not so much - depending on the game you pick to analyse. Once you dig up some specimens and gather your sample and all stats, then try to see how that would compare to whatever character you are playing (or seeing) in the game it will give you a good enough idea :)
Bought the grotesque medieval mace from you a few days ago. It arrived fast and is fantastic, I love it . Going to put it on my wall for all to see. Thank you.
It makes sense the head is not exaggeratingly large. You still want speed and dexterity with a weapon, even if its a mace or hammer. Great recreation definitely puts an end to a lot of my questions about maces and their use.
@@tods_workshop do any of your demonstrations test the armor damage, when a broadsword is held by the blade and the hand protection bars used as a mace?
I agree. I'd rather take a hatchet into a fight than a woodcutter's axe. They dodge your slow, clumsy swing and suddenly you're eating their counterattack.
@@dmtaboo_truth7052 in a similar way I like the light camp version of the bush ax, tho it probably wouldn't work on an armored opponent. I think your reasoning is sound.
It's my understanding that flanges are more for "biting" and preventing glancing than localizing damage. The localized pressure from the flange does more in the way of ensuring broad transfer of energy than creating a dent in armor.
If you strike an armored opponent with a point, and it punctures or makes a deep dent in a place where the armor is supposed to allow the wearer to bend, and the damage hinders their ability to move because their armor is jammed up, you've weakened your opponent even if you haven't actually wounded them. Or if you strike an attachment point like a rivet, you might break a piece of armor loose or off entirely. You could strike the visor and compromise their ability to see through it, etc. And so in that sense, I think it's fair to say that those spikes and flanges ARE for penetrating (or at least deforming) armor, not just concentrating force for the purpose of wounding the opponent.
I'd call that deformation, which is a feature of penetration but not exclusive to it. Turning armour concave into someone would equally do this without piercing.
Tod, compare the spike mace with a round (spherical) mace. It may help to show the idea of the spike's function. it may help to show how the spikes provide "grip" on the target so that the energy doesn't glance off.
As always a very interesting episode! Using full force blows you should consider wearing at least protective eyewear though. One day a piece of armour or weapon will come flying at your face.
The two other main striking points for maces are the collar bones, you can fairly easily snap off someone collerbone and most armors are jointed on the shoulders, or are covered by a relatively loose pauldron which will flex much more than the rigidly attached breastplate. The helmet is the main target, and even with a steel helm a hit to the head can concuss or even kill you outright. It would be interesting to see tests like this conducted on a anatomic model in armour with replica bones - mythbusters style- to get an idea of the impact that blunt force would have on the squishy bits under that steel plate
Pure opinion from a physical chemist. I think the sharpened flanges are still a type of "penetration" but like you said all the mass into one location. Nadine Glaser et al states, "fracture threshold of the human skull is 14.1 to 68.5 J", with a baseball bat having a peek energy threshold of 140 J. I imagine that this goth mace would have roughly 200 J of potential when struck full force. While the force of the mace would still be painful and energy required to fracture bones, but a hit of a rounded mace upon mail would disperse a considerable amount of energy before further absorption by the gambeson. The heaving and movement of the mail rings and gambeson would create a large surface area of applied force and considerable dispersal. Possibly, the flange point is designed to push past a chain link or break it, so that the barb of the flange can push past and apply considerable amounts of energy to 1 location of a gambeson. This would be more than enough to perforate an organ, collapse a lung, burst vessels with broken bones as a given. Purely opinion because it would require testing, but I think that these "sharp" versions of these maces were probably designed for a different set of uses, like chain mail, compared to their blunted counterparts. Overall, I think it's still a type of penetration, but a way of penetrating kinetic force. Thoughts?
That mace against the plate was interesting. Against a helmet I suspect, based on that dent in the plate, this would be brutal. Easy concussions or cracked skull I'd think, assuming it didn't glance off.
Thank you for the explanation. I am trying to think of how or when they would use a mace and maybe it was when one's sword broke. The soldier would then grab his mace which might have allowed him to live another day to fight.
I love maces, most show, movies, and videos always go for swords but not enough attention goes to the crunching power of the mace plus they can have cool designs too
I always considered maces to be 'anti-joint' weapons. Solid hit from a mace on a knee/elbow/shoulder will effectively cripple the opponent even when fully armored.
@@allstarwoo4 You can't do much damage directly to center mass with a mace, as Todd shown in the video. Sure, it would hurt, but won't give you enough advantage over the opponent. On the other hand, hits on the joints are crippling, both from blunt impact and from spikes on the mace bending the steel armor inwards. Joints are very fragile.
@@lazyman7505 I don’t disagree just more of technicality. The clavicle is really good target for the mace but is not a joint. And I don’t mean hard targets as in armor but points where there not a lot of muscle covering bone.
Can we quantify how much force made it through the armor? Maybe just some ShockWatch labels under the armor to get a rough gauge. Of course, the dream would be a ballistics gel model with faux bones inside to see if you could get breakages through gambeson, lamellar, mail, and plate.
Good news. He was scary strong and fast which is why 2 champions of the free people fell to him in combat at the same time. He was only defeated by freak incident that nobody could have foreseen.
@@acephantom903 Gilgalad was an Elven king, of him the harpers sadly sing... the last who's land was fair and free, between the mountains and the sea.
You can get impact indicator or monitor that they use in packages and crash dummies, would be interesting to see how much energy is transferred through different armor.
Performed exactly like I expected. Late medieval/early Renaissance plate armor was incredibly effective (as long as you didn’t shoot at it with a musket).
The crux here is the cost. A set of plate armor would cost more that 1000 times the cost of 1 such mace. If you have 10000 guys and you need them protected against such weapons, it would cost a lot.
I believe the mace was for breaking bones and breaking armour figuratively and literally, if you're in full plate and your opponent has crushed your armour in with a mace you most likely wont be able to move once the hinges in the plates covering your arm(and possibly your bones) are caved in
I always think about Buhurt (full contact medieval fighting) when I think of a mace vs armour. All of their weapons are blunted yet they still get injuries despite the safety regulations. I can't imagine how devastating these may have been during an actual battle.
Also, the maces can’t be very heavy at all in war games like that either. People really underestimate anything blunt. Where they glorify swords, which really are shit unless it knight vs knight or Calvary vs unarmored. Guys in WWI kept legs off and chairs and stuff to use as clubs for trench fighting. Native Americans would volley their muskets once and then rush in and use them as clubs. Honestly a sword is one of the last things I would want on a battlefield. I’d rather have the mace, a pole-hammer over anything. Unless I’m going up against a trained, seasoned veteran, they’ll probably miss their sword poke and I may be able to get in a little too close for a sword and whale on them. You want the simplest thing possible in a fight like that. You’re not going to survive many of them, and you’re going to lose all of your fine motor skills. Very few people build up/have the disposition to keep their nerve in war.
Would be interesting to know if you could measure the concussive blow on the inside of the armour to see if it would cause a concussion, broken bone or internal bleeding
I wonder what forces you could measure if Todd had an accelerometer or those force patches Mythbusters use to use in his test dummies. Maybe help quantify just how much damage a mace or blunt object did.
As I understand it the flanges are there to prevent, or circumvent, the deflection capabilities of plate armor specifically. This by biting into the plate letting the kinetic energy transfer more easily and directly, compared to say a round headed mace that might lose a lot of it's force by sliding on the curved surfaces. If you use the mace, as you suggest in this video, to hit places not covered by plate then the flanges don't really have a purpose, and you might as well have a round head. It might of course be that the flanges are a way to increase the "volume" of the mace head, increasing the size but not the weight to allow for easier hitting. Would be interesting to see more experiments with them.
@@mandowarrior123 No they do-what? Of course force more concentrated will have a bigger impact, what I'm talking about is the designed shape of the flanges and how against soft targets they offer no real advantages over other shapes. As demonstrated. If the goal is to break bones behind cloth armour why choose such a complex shape? If it's to break open ring mail armour, for what purpose? Since it would only leave you back at defeating the cloth armour underneath if you succeed.
@@DzinkyDzink This is the theory I've heard. The edges of two flanges bite into the plate, preventing the mace slipping and making sure that all that force is transferred.
I've been making one myself. I used modern welding to make the head solid. The craftsmen of the past were extremely skilled for their level of technology.
I made a flanged mace on a whim years ago. Mine is definitely heavier, but all in all, very similar. It’s hard explain, but when you are holding something like that, you get a sense of just how devastating it would be to take hit from it. It would be horrible to see the results of that hitting someone that wasn’t armored. I suspect even someone that is moderately armored would be very bruised and probably have some broken bones.
Every time I hold a purpose built weapon, there's an odd sense to it. Doesn't really matter if it's a cold close weapon or firearm, though heavy close combat wepons like maces feel the best. Guess it's something genetic in humans, holding a big stick, suddenly feeling safe and in control...
I had a similar thing happen after chopping wood a while back. I have a knack for recreating sensations in my thoughts and got a sense from chopping the wood of how it would feel to get hit in a bone with an axe. It was unpleasant to imagine XD
@@matthewbreytenbach4483 Reality is worse imo. Been only hit by an axe once and it was a glancing blow, but had some unrelated surgery done with extraction of supports later. And let me tell you. A foreign object touching your bone while you're feeling it is incomparable to any other sensation. Because suddenly, things are where they're not supposed to be and you have an acute sense of wrongness. At least I did and can still remember it.
@@matthewbreytenbach4483 Kind of you to ask. Thanks yeah I've mostly recovered, had some torn ligament tissue in my wrist and a complicated surgery to fix it. It was two years ago. I've got lasting limit in mobility of the wrist, but its nothing to cry over. I must say, I was super shocked that there was 0 painkilling effort when they were pulling out the metal braces and doubly shocked that it didn't hurt, but the feeling was quite overwhelming, both from the visual and tactile experience. 10/10 would recommend to aspiring writers that wanna write gritty close combat scenes XD XD. I'm looking into my options to get back to swinging a sword or another weapon, but things seem to keep getting in the way, probably don't miss it as much as I thought I did.
Awesome video and thank you for the demonstration. The impact is far more important than the piercing for maces and would really shatter people even under the gambeson and chainmail. I would like to see this done to a ballistic dummy wearing armor to see the real damage.
Only if it's one of those with the bones inside, otherwise ballistic gel is a crap analogue for human flesh against melee weapons. Ti's not even a perfect analogue vs. bullets. It's just close enough and it's a consistent medium for testing bullets. But blades tend to cut right through it, as do arrows.
In my opinion it does not need to penetrate anything. Due to the law of conservation of energy, if you strike somebody in armor with a blunt heavy object, the energy that you project onto the armor will travel in the direction it is applied in that means the energy will travel through enemy's body and cause the damage to the internal organs and bones either way. I think the hexagonal spikey head is there to prevent the mace from sliding sideways when hitting a bulged sections of (lets say the breastplate) thus making sure that as much energy created will be transferred onto the enemy as possible due to the mace "having a little bit of bite" on the armor to prevent it from sliding.
Might be interesting to get some of those accelerometers to put on the dummy when testing the blows to measure the effectiveness of the different forms of armor in absorbing impact force from these blows. They can be calibrated to measure varying levels of injury that could be expected for a human body to suffer based on the amount of impact force experienced.
I always liked the brutal simplicity of maces and picks, so often ignored in movies and games but still absolutely devastating weapons. That museum text blurb called it horseman's weapon, so I would expect the added momentum from galloping horse would make it even more damaging. Jason, if you're reading this you know what to do...
@@tods_workshop 15th, 16th, and 17th century mentions of maces are almost always about their use from horseback. Burgundian Ordonnances 1473 has them at the saddle for the men at arms (only for the saddle and only for the men at arms), du Bellay says for the mace to be at the pommel of the saddle for the man at arms, Sir James Turner says they were "ancient weapons for a horseman", Robert Barret says "and at his sadle bow, a mace" for the man at arms, and this is the only weapon that he specifies where it should be, Humfrey Barwick mentions "a Pistoll or mace" for the cavalry, but not for the infantry, Bernardino de Mendoza says "the pistoll still remayneth with the light horse, which most carrie at the saddle pummell, in steede of a mace or fawchion which they were wonte to hange thereat". In "Coll. of Arms", it says "were well doon to have a mase at the sadell". From the inventories I have personally seen (and this is anecdotal ofc), maces stop being common in the 2nd half of the 14th century (as opposed to being almost omnipresent before). In general though, i would personally argue that there is more evidence for them being specialized weapons for the mounted melee during the "age of plate" than otherwise.
The problem with striking from a galloping horse is that all of the extra energy is gonna yank on you as well. If it even gets a little bit stuck you're either getting your weapon yanked from your hand or you're getting yanked from your horse. That's why many believe it was the flail that was a cavalry weapon. All you need is enough force so you don't need the follow through a solid shaft provides. Meanwhile a flexible shaft allows the weapon to disperse energy by moving so you don't get yanked as much. Proper flail technique would have been to go for the head (not too hard from a horse), any lower and you'd risk wrapping around something.
If you look at how Maces are used, they are usually aimed at the shoulder or head, to cause concussion and break the collar bone, aiming at the breastplate is just suboptimal, thick armor, and the rib cage is designed to stop trauma
Bring back Weird Weapons! :D Love the mace, would love to buy one like that. Looks good for home defence for when you need pain/punishment rather than lethality.
That mace on an unarmored oponent is absolutely lethal. Not immediately incapacitating only on limbs maybe. But anywhere in the torso, not to talk about the head, will bust something up.
@@kevinlobos5519 Of course not the torso (hard at least) or head! Whole point is to inflict pain and break things. Again in a country like England, if they drop everything and say "what are you gonna do, stab me?" You're gonna look bad running them through with a sword or hacking off a limb. Breaking an arm or two to the point they give up and bugger off, would be the idea.
@@kevinlobos5519 that mace is incapacitating to anyone anywhere on the torso, Head, neck or legs. The energy transfer sends an enormous shock through the system that most people simply cannot recover from quickly, if at all. Follow with a second third blow, etc. But then again we are talking about close quarters hand-to-hand. Most people have never experienced that pain and shock.
Make no mistake that is lethal force. Even with light armor burst organs such as spleen, liver, intestine, even pancreas, lungs, and heart have been documented as being ruptured by single mace strikes on unarmored or lightly armored people. Imagine two grown men closing at full sprint. 15-20 mph/35-50kph closing speeds are documented in football routinely. And double that is common on foot. Now add in a pitcher or bowler arm capable of 90mph /130kph blow. Reduce that down due to the mass of the weapon. But the mass transfer of one body to a fist-sized metal object is going to always have lethal potential energy. By design.
@@christopherneelyakagoattmo6078 Depends how hard you hit though, doesn't it. Not every blow needs to be a full on welly, or to a vital region. In comparison it's a bit hard to do a tap with a bladed weapon, isn't it?
Excellent choice of shirt for the episode. Talking about hitting in different areas made me realize that's probably why it's small, light, and agile, it's not for knocking people down in one hit, it's for targeting the joints and exposed areas to break bones underneath, rattle heads, or maybe even cause armor jams. The agility is more important than the weight?
They were actually king of the battlefield (aside from spears) and knights hated them for good reason. They are easier to make than good swords, need considerably less training and while they can't penetrate armour (like a sword!) it will make gruesome dents cause concussions etc. The wielder of such a mace or warhammer also doesn't have to worry about breaking, it can't get blunt (because it already is, lol) etc. The reason we value swords so high is actually ridiculous: Because they were more expensive and harder to master, they were mostly popular among nobility. The sword is kind of the IT girl of weapons. It got romanticized early on and we kept this tradition in movies, literature and now computer games. Most games give the sword the best stats, they are the gold standard everything else is measured against - take any (pen&paper) RPG and you've got a slew of inferior weapons like daggers that are only used when your character is restricted by the rules while every weapon that does more damage comes with hefty disadvantages like less to hit chances etc. So we keep on the myth. Even the famous samurai with their fancy katanas relied mainly on their bow as the main weapon. As the joke goes, if a samurai boasts how good he is with his sword all other samurai just think "ah, dude is bad at archery" :) And their most feared opponent weren't that much other samurai, it were the common spearmen. Hence the bow, the only way to outplay them, but close range swords almost always lose to spears.
It's a solid weapon strong enough to deflect larger pole arms, or block one handed weapons - which can also be used to counter attack and strike at vulnerable areas by being small enough and light enough to be fast and accurate with swings: go for the sword arm at the hand, wrist or elbow or even the knee bellow the shield. If someone over-extends or is has become fatigued to the point where they leave themselves open after a swing, you can bonk someone's helmet in a specific direction to throw them off balance and then follow up with a good body check to knock them on the ground.
I love seeing real weapons compared to the fantasy versions. I always smile at warhammers the size of sledgehammers, axes so large the momentum would leave you horribly vulnerable or swords that are longer than spears. 🤣
Indeed, though in fantasy you are also dealing with mythical races and materials - it might look unwieldy for a human when made in real world materials, but to that dwarf who is hugely dense so their COM isn't as effected by flailing it around and strong enough, so the weapon doesn't move them about as much as they move it... Well then even in steel its going to be quite handy, make some of the bits that don't need to be heavy in the magic dust coated extra light and strong materials of that world and it is even more so, and maybe even the relatively puny humans can use it just fine.
i got a dagger and a sword from tod. the quality is really high and im thrilled with them. honestly im going to have to get a mace, and a crossbow. and maybe a warhammer....and a poleaxe...
If you take a big steel nut, M32 or larger, and screw it onto a wooden handle, the resluting mace would probably be ~90% as effective as those showen here ;) And basically free if you can find a nut and a stick :)
I love the smooth advertisement at the end. After giving a lecture about historical accuracy and attention to detail, the video would've almost felt incomplete without adding that you are actually selling the kind of stuff that clears the bar you just set. In fact, it was so fitting that I don't know if this was a 12 min long add I just watched but enjoyed like a regular video anyway. :D
I'd be curious about the impact of an off center hit to the breastplate (maybe on a hanging heavy bag to measure energy transfer?) with either the flanged mace or one with a round head to see if there's a difference in glancing off.
Always liked maces and often prefer them in rpg games just for the role playing aspects, with various success I might add lol. That aside I think some people don't realise how effective concussion hits really are🤕. Thanks for another informative video.🙂
I would like to add that maces were not used for hitting full plate armor but vulnerable areas especially the neck and shoulders where they could break the spine or shatter a clavicle. For massive impact you would need a morning-star for big momentum and heavier mass.
In defense of Sauron (in the movies) his mace created kinetic explosions on impact that would blast dozens of soldiers at a time. I think a weapon like that would do just fine on a medieval battle field lol. Thank you for the presentation 🙂
_Force concentration IS armour penetration._ That's what a spike does, including a spear-tip. A one-handed mace is not really meant to defeat a decent breastplate, it's a sidearm. And obviously the mace has less penetration than other weapons, like warpicks.
Maces would have the same targets we use in baton strikes. You aim for areas where bones are close to the surface. Target would not be middle of chest. It would be head, collarbone, side of ribs, hip, forearm, back of neck, joints.
Hey Tod, i'm not sure if this has been suggested (or if you even read the comments), but i think it would be really cool if you could show a little more of the fabrication process, if this is something you are willing to share. The whole brazing process sounds pretty unique, especially on this type of weapon. From the "spiky ball on a shaft", the technical gap till this one and the process behind it could use some demonstration to illustrate further. Despite your clear explaination it still is quite hard to picture how the whole thing works out in the forge while the metal is hot. I'm really curious about making that much brazing at once, assembly and quenching to get it *that* solidly setted in place on the shaft to whitstand serious use, especilly working from museum pieces, and to picture the technical/time saving constraints you got along the way. Anyways, thanks for the video. It's always a pleasure when you go for more wargear field testing, even on a smaller scale than siege weapons ^^
Great channel! I always have to tell people that the flanges and stuff are not for puncturing through plate. Even if they do punch a hole through plate, you're not gonna fit an entire bec de corbin head through a 4mm hole in 3mm of mild steel. They're for absolutely wrecking the joints underneath and giving the person wearing a steel bucket on their head a mad concussion
The witch king's flail in Return of The King was so heavy that the actor actually couldn't lift it, they needed a guy in a green suit underneath the mace to help lift it by benchpressing it. But by god does that thing look cool.
From my College days as a materials engineering student, I can say a braze welded joint is actually fairly strong. We tested using 1/8" by 1" flat stock strips, and brazed a 1/2" lap joint, and then tested it in tension. The mild steel failed before the braze joint did, and it held several thousand pounds.
Every time you swing that at the test model, I could only imagine feeling it, but worst. Good on you for simulating the Medival Weaponry. Keep up the good work
The problem with this mace is that it's a mace designed for Calvary as seen as that it has no long point at the end like a stiletto. An infantry's/knights mace is designed to wear your opponent down with crippling blows targeted at joints to lock up armor or in the lucky case their limbs in total. Then you take the pointed end and aim for underneath the helmet, Eye/mouth slits, Thighs or in the armpit to deal the killing blow.
Beaks and Points aren't meant to go through mail. They are meant to punch through plates like a can opener. A mace head with a good amount of weight will break bones and tissue under the mail regardless of points. Points are added to target armor plates.
You could emphasize the protectiveness of the armor and effect of the weapon by putting something breakable underneath, or something to indicate where an injury would happen and to what extent. Like something ceramic with paint or powder in it, for example. Would be rather interesting to watch.
One of my fave vids of yours Todd. Ive been interested in maces and how they work on armour for a while. In part its worth considering not just how they perform in isolation but comparing the same blows vs what a sword would do in the same situation. sword and mace both weigh about the same but the mail and plate would both reduce the cutting force of a sword to almost nothing. So why not use a mace which gives up on cutting in exchange for more efficient energy transfer. You mention that this is a cavalry weapon which would very much make sense since a thrust without the lunging force of your legs is probably a fair bit weaker.
I've always loved maces. Something about hitting people with heavy, pointy objects really fascinates me and just is "me". And that flanged mace? Absolutely brilliant O_O 11/10, but nothing I wouldn't expect from you, Tod
When people talk about "armor penetration" in relation to concussive weapons, I don't think its typically meant literally as making an actual hole in the armor, but shorthand way to say it does damage through armor. This is especially true for those who have a lot of gaming (video or table top) in their background, since as a game mechanic it doesn't really matter, only if that part of the damage is allowed to ignore armor (unless there is some durability that is being reduce, but that would be a separate armor damaging mechanic).
Superb weapon by the time, light, strong, and pretty brutal. I really doubt that a man cannot be off-balance after a good hit of this mace. In a battle, all you need is a moment of oportunity, and a blunt hit could be decisive to end the battle by handicapping the opponent. Although, full-plates could counter this weapon. Thanks for sharing this.
For anyone that might question the force of Todd's blows due to lack of damage on the armor . . . he is a professional blacksmith, if there is anything he knows how to do it's swing a blunt weapon with force and precision.
not that much force hes a fat old man
Yeah, that mace will fuck up anyone, even armored people due to the force.
@@xXCREEKSTARXx Not really
@@EQOAnostalgia Well, full plate would protect you quite well from that unless you've got hit in the head. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that mace wearing only mail though, I'm pretty sure it could easily break a rib or two and cause some serious internal damage.
My dad is a retired blacksmith. Blacksmiths are much stronger than they look as well. Nothing like a body builder look, but swinging steel for hours a day will definitely give you some big arm muscles.
The little mace head reminds me of a display of Viking axes, and these axe heads were very tiny, like smaller than a clenched fist. People were making fun of how tiny the axe blades were, and the historian in charge very wisely pointed out: "instead of laughing at how small these weapons were, you should be horrified to realize that these tiny weapons were all you needed to kill another human being."
Nice
Something tells me the Vikings had a much better understanding of what works best to kill someone in medieval combat than a bunch of modern era couch potatoes.
@@41tl exactly. look also at the depiction of warhammers in medieval fantasy versus what they actually looked like in real life.
@@wesjanson6979 as always people like BIG things but nobody think about the fact that not all Vikings were from Strongman competition and people were just people, big metal things weigh a lot, and big war hammers would just exhaust you very fast
I have a splitting axe that weighs 4 pounds (all in the head) and I dare anyone to try to swing it one-handed. These weapons had to be small it's the only way they could be wielded at all.
Hearing Tod rag on Sauron made my day. I have a feeling that Tod was a dwarf craftsman in another universe.
Decent chance he is one in this universe just shaves daily to hide it
That hat he's wearing makes him look rather dwarfish (sans beard).
Afaik the reason the Lich kings Flail and Saurons Mace where made so obviously, massively and impractically oversized was just specifically to make them *look* intimidating for the movie
the Weapons were purposefully made oversized, despite some on set wanting otherwise for the sole purpose of looking imposing.
In other words;
Saurons Mace isn't build for fighting, it's made for looks. He'd be a lot less scary looking with the mace tod is holding! XD
@@A.F.M.B.1234 Todd and all of us know that. You have to put yourself into the movie for the joke to be funny. Notice Todd said "Sauron is terrible at designing weapons" not "the propmaster is terrible at designing weapons".
*Sauron cares not for design intentions, only for results!*
**smacks another hundred free peoples into bags of broken flesh and bone**
From a physics perspective, firstly all piercing weapons (armour or flesh) are force concentrators. But the logic behind the mace is in large part to avoid skipping or glancing blows. A glancing blow will see a lot of the momentum and energy continue, as we saw very well in the longbow series. That of course wastes the energy of the attack. The spikes on a mace will dig into the armour ever so slightly which provides much more purchase and helps reduce the glancing blow. As we can imagine, once the armour is dented (even a small dent) the force moving into the armour will strongly resist any lateral forces trying to skip the mace away, especially compared to its undented domed shape. The polearm having the square hammer with 4 spikes is a particularly effective shape for that, possibly why we tend to see it more often as plated armour becomes more common.
As an aside, I'd wonder if we could see the effects of maces vs various armour types well on a ballistics lab dummy. They're very often misused, but this seems an ideal purpose for one. Of course assuming you can get a youtuber deal as they often seem to do - it would be a very expensive answer to a curiosity otherwise.
The force concentration/delivery makes perfect sense. It's a bit like putting walnuts in a bag, then smacking the bag with a mallet or rolling pin to break up the shells. You don't care if the bag splits, you just want the shells broken.
Ouch, right in the walnuts!
It's like a monkey hiding in a piñata beside the candy hoping the kids don't break through with the bat
@@Priapos93 why it calls the skull splitter lol
He is right ... and wrong... the flanges act like football cleats giving traction and sticking on say ... the helmet of another knight instead of glancing off.
Then again, IF a weapon is designed to penetrate armour, doesn't it also do that by concentrating the force on one point? So calling these maces "force concentrators" is redundant and misleading.
Armor penetration is kind of a relative term, if your weapon is designed to do blunt force trauma past armor then you're effectively bypassing it. Against a guys head, armored or not, this would be massively effective at stunning or knocking him senseless... Far more effective than a blade against armored opponents.
I think mainly what hammers and maces were probably intended to hit a targets head. This makes me wonder now if helmets were made the same thickness as the rest of the armor. I heard once that picks were designed for horseback and the rider could go around hitting everyone in the head very easily but so far I've only seen one video where even one with a long handle couldn't go through plate. Maybe it was only for the unfortunates who didn't have helmets.
I’d honestly prefer a sword against armour, you can stab into the chainmail, weakpoints or force it through the gaps. Whereas a mace basically can’t do anything to plate armour, ignoring the rest of course, unless they hit the head which would force them to be very predictable.
@pyrrhusofepirus8491 You know most maces we think of were designed specifically for plate. We're talking organ shattering concussion damage alone. But even still, the accounts talk about knights basically beating helmets into tin pulp and watching the blood & brains ooze out the cracks. There's a reason in armored combat swords were considered a sidearm.
@@joeytodd795 Maces weren’t designed for plate they’d already existed long before it, moreover, as I said, the head, rest of the body I don’t see much happening at all nor them feeling it much at all if that. Moreover, I’d like to ask whether these knights were in full helms and in combat stance as opposed to being incapacitated and unable to fight back, at which point the mace wielder just starts wailing on them. I don’t really see maces as anymore of a “sidearm” than an axe or sword.
@@pyrrhusofepirus8491 maneuvering a sword in close combat to effectively stab into weakpoints is, frankly, unrealistic and too difficult to accurately achieve repeatedly against struggling enemies. Whacking dudes with a mace on the other hand, quite easy especially under duress. Even if a mace doesn't warp the helmet, you are ringing their bell and you can still break bone past armor... ask any fans of bohurt why maces have limitations on their weight and why they often use heavy 'blunt' blades that don't have weight restrictions. In close quarters, using a sword against an armored opponent would be far less effective than a dagger because of the ease of maneuvering and the fact that if you tackle an enemy certain daggers have been known to be able to pierce mild steel just by pressing down with your mass... let alone the ease of stabbing weakpoints at that range far outclassing a sword. Once you are within a weapons range, using a weapon better suited for close in, you've negated your opponents advantage... which armor already negated if you are using a sword.
Would love to see you add a clay strike face behind the armor whenever you're testing impact. It would help illustrate how much force makes it through the armor. Clay is used in the same way to test back face deformation for modern ballistic panels and plates.
Agreed
Agreed. Ballistic dummies would be the dream but at $2 000 USD I can see why they don't.
@@handroids1981 It's possible that Tod's subscriber base is approaching the point where he might be able to land some sort of product placement deal with makers of said ballistic dummies. I doubt Garand Thumb is going out of pocket for the dummies he's shooting to pieces most videos.
@@handroids1981 No need for ballistic dummies. Basic modelling clay is a cheap, reusable medium.
@@vanivanov9571 Agreed and the ballistic dummies wouldn't show anything anyway, they're intended provide a consistent medium to measure bullet wound cavities, not stabbing/blunt weapons.
Similar to some other comments, it would be very interesting to see the armor overlayed on a ballistic dummy or some other sort of tissue analog. Or even using some type of force measuring device under the armor to see how much of the force from the impact would be passed on to the wearer. I have a feeling the chap just wearing the mail would have a couple broken ribs after meeting that mace on the battlefield. Keep up the great work!
I was wondering the same thing. All of that force concentrated on one point - surely underlying tissue and bone would take a pounding. Would certainly be a cool experiment with ballistic gel or similar..
As I watch more about maces in medieval war.. I think main target is head (helmets) collarbone (shoulder even under plate armor) and limbs and joints. All places where bones are close and not covered with muscle and heavy padding. Any broken bone will finish the fight.
The real prime targets are hands.
I also tend to think, at least later when armor became more and more intricately articulated, that the point wasn't to pierce the armor but to seize it up. You could see how the longbow was capable of it in the arrows vs armor update they did. You didn't have to kill or even wound an enemy knight to remove him from the battle; if he couldn't move his arm he couldn't swing a sword and thus was a non-factor from that point on.
@@tacothunderking4558 "A fine victory indeed, please do remove your helmet Sir Ulrich" . . . . . "Er, I can't." : )
@@tacothunderking4558 your point is coherent but I doubt armour was that tight fitting and knit together as to be able to be rendered inoperable that way. You are thinking about Tourney suits instead of field ones.
Gear grinder - I would say that some of the impacts in Arrows vs Armour 2 caused curls of material to be pushed in and in the way of the plate articulation. It would have been distracting to the wearer for certain and possibly would have hindered movement. Big dents and deformations at the elbow and shoulder joints from this mace would certainly cause movement problems to some degree
I really hope you see this! In short, I'm a Marine, when they choose Kevlars for us one of the things they look at is the amount of back face deformation after a bullet impacts. Just because the helmet stops a projectile doesn't mean it won't kill you, if it creates enough of a bulge (deformation) it can still crack your skull or worse. I know these weren't meant to pierce armor around the torso and whatnot, that's obvious, but I would love to see what it could to to the skull specifically with the helms they used in the given time. Maybe something with Ballistic Dummy Labs for a good comparison? Always enjoy the content, you're one of the best in the field. Can't wait to see more!
Thanks and I do read as much of this as I can!
I have always thought that the point of the "spikes" as it were, was to stop the mace head from skidding off of the armour so you could actually put the force in to the thing you are hitting
at the end of the day, still wouldnt want one wrapped round the side of my head
That was always my assumption as well, like the teeth on a warhammer face they bite in and concentrate the force. In a modern context of applying batons to arses, this is called 'Pain Compliance' and it really does the job on basically anywhere but the head and neck, in which case they will probably be very ineffective in short order. Everyone wants to play, but with enough broken fingers, smashed elbows and knee caps or a nut shot and its soon no fun at all.
Partially, yes, but if that were its purpose you'd see them coated to increase friction i'd reckon. The main focus I think was on bone. Skulls are quite hard to break for example, as the force is spread around like the breastplate. If it is concentrated though, it will shatter. Same is true for the other bones. The flesh helps spread the force, so concentrating it makes it easier to break it.
And that's what you want with a mace, shattered bones and internal bleeding, and maximizing debilitating pain.
I agree! If you put a pointed/spiked area it would both concentrate the force to a narrow surface area AND prevent slipping. As Tod demonstrates I don’t think they’re meant to penetrate plate or sheets of steel, but damn you’re gonna feel it through the armour 😮💨😅
It also turns your most recent victim into a temporary sheath when it gets stuck in a skull.
Being struck on the side of the skull is more devastating than being struck on the back or front
I love this channel! I love how Todd retro-engineers everything so it’s as accurate to history as possible!
This episode should be sponsored by Macy's, a missed opportunity. 😉
Great episode as always.
he's British, they're American, why should he even be aware of them...
@@benlepoidevin7047 bit harsh! It's just a pun mate
@@benlepoidevin7047 -
Because, over here, ignorance is not really seen as a virtue . . . especially when judging others.
That would have been amacing
@@loddude5706
You literally arrest people for free speech; you're excused from all academic conversation.
I would think that the pointed flanges, even though they don't penetrate, could increase the chance of a broken rib or a damaged organ. Kinda like how even though a shotgun might not penetrate modern body armor, the impact at a single point can still be very damaging.
You should also never forget that while a mace would hurt massivly with gambison the best way is to get a solid smack to the head. And while you can catch incredibly amount of force with a good helmet and soft cap underneath, the weak link in that is the brain that starts swashing around from the impact.
So yeah, that things are dangerous...
A 12 Gauge slug can EASILY go through modern body armor. Even body armor rated for 7.62mm. A 12 Gauge is insanely powerful what are you on?
Having suffered a blunt trauma injury to the forearm, I can say penetration of the armor, or even the skin, is not required. If the injured person goes into shock, or suffers a concussion, the fight is pretty much over.
@@whatamidoingwithmylife4108 he wasnt talking about 12 gauge ^^"
Blunt force trauma can cause internal bleeding, Hemorrhage, bruising, broken bones and more. It's not always what you are that can kill you. Sometimes it's what you can't see that does you in.
Internal bleeding comes to mind.
Tod is such a treasure. His enthusiasm is great; and the maces are so cool. I'm surprised how small they are; but I certainly wouldn't like to meet the business end of them. The slo-mo footage is certainly instructive; what a thump! Tod, "Ooh, look at that!" Mace to the 'nards! 😲💀
Maces and general blunt weapons are my favorite. Axes close second.
Swords are just MEH for me.
I was thinking ...A lot of his exclamations in this vid cud be taken waay out of context for some hilarity🤣
The mace didn't need to be very large to split skulls. But it did need to be handy enough to swing for hours on end on the battlefield. Anything much larger, and it wouldn't have been viable
One important detail here is that it was often a cavalry weapon, the museum web page even confirms it. Which means the momentum and energy of the impact would be massive, as long as you land a solid hit. And that's what these weapons are designed to do - maximize the probability of getting a solid hit, as opposed to glancing off. Either by biting into armor, or by landing with multiple spikes. You just want to take 'luck' out of the equation, and make sure that your attack from horseback is guaranteed to be lethal, even against armor designed to maximize the chances of attacks glancing away.
Though I'm not saying it would be a bad weapon on foot. The same principle still applies, just there's a good chance you won't lay an opponent dead with a single hit if they're wearing full plate armor. Also, I imagine even if you're wearing the best armor available, taking a flanged mace hit to your arm or hand would be brutal (I mean compared to other one-handed weapons).
Well i think cavalry need much more longer weapon when racing at high speed or his horse will be first target before he can beat any enemy
it could be used in that function, when a lance was lost in the first engagement and you have to prepare for a second charge. more likely though is this is the "sidearm" drawn when a melee developed between other cavalry milling around each other or when deep in an infantry formation and you drop your lance. in both occasions cavalry vs cavalry or cavalry vs footman the horse will be fairly stationary and therefore not provide extra momentum to the blow. some momentum could be added from swinging down onto the top of infantry from the elevated position atop the horse, but in general the seated position on a horse is LESS conducive to full body power transfer than being well grounded on two feet and less stable so a stationary strike from a horseman will probably be a lot weaker than even the same man could deliver while standing on the ground.
also consider that its the horsemans mace, whether that means it was "only effective or best used from a horse", or whether it meant only the rich who could afford a horse were the only people who could afford such a weapon with its fanciful construction, when a footman would more likely have a polearm with some sort of rondel dagger or multi-purpose bladed weapon as a sidearm, or just a less expensive blunt weapon
I think it really depends on the situation. First, you should remember that big battles are just a tiny fraction of all warfare - much of it is small skirmishes, sieges, etc.
A knight (or any other cavalry) would have different weapons for different situations. A lance might be preferred for battle against enemy cavalry or professional footmen, but another weapon might be preferred for skirmishes, riding enemy supply lines, dealing with peasants, militia, bandits etc. Even on a battlefield the situation can vary a lot.
I think with cavalry, often the assumption was that enemy will break formation when the cavalry charge hits them, at which point a short weapon was often more useful than a lance, since you can easily strike many opponents in quick succession, as they flee or attempt to fight back in a disorganized manner. This may not always work, but it often did, since commanders would send the cavalry where they expect this tactic to work.
Btw. the idea that 'you just target the horse'... simple in theory, but (as many youtubers and history enthusiasts have already talked about it), very hard to pull off in practice. Imagine a car that is going fast in your direction... and you're told to just hold the line, and attack the car as it gets close. "Just shoot the tires, or the driver" or something. Yeah... some armies were able to hold their line against cavalry without breaking formation, but they were the exception, not the norm. I wonder how people practiced to get prepared for such scenarios, did they make 'practice charges' to get the footmen mentally prepared?
In any case, I don't think a cavalryman would ever want a situation where their horse is 'fairly stationary' while surrounded by enemies. As a horseman, your primary defense is being on the move, as otherwise enemies could hit you from all sides, and you have no way to defend against that. So, even if you're deep into enemy lines or 'milling around' with enemy cavalry, you would still want to push forward at least quickly enough, that no enemy can get you from behind. In fact, if you end up surrounded by enemy infantry, I imagine you'd order your horse to go as fast as it can forward, trampling anyone and anything, until you can break out. So I can't really imagine many scenarios where a horseman would be stationary while fighting. That's a scenario you desperately want to avoid. And you have a horse that is specifically trained and equipped to avoid that.
I recommend Jason Kingsley's channel (Modern History TV) as he makes a lot of cavalry-related content, including for example his recent practices with Lindybeige where they assess various footman vs horseman scenarios.
Dude, I’d love to see this demo with a ballistic dummy.
Just because a knight is carrying a weapon on horseback that does not mean the weapon is supposed to be used on horseback
Following your logic they also used daggers on horseback
That does not mean the mace couldn't be used but it's highly unlikely to be your first choice, and most of the literature and art we have show maces being used on foot as well, most likely it was a sidearm for foot combat
We do have a lot of art for flails being used on horseback though
Also interesting, the mace with the face has the face-side with no spikes, which gives you an easy way to just put it in your belt with no spikes poking your side. Probably just a side effect though
That's a good point. You wouldn't want them digging in or bouncing off your knee as you walk. I wonder how maces are generally transported? I guess that they are a weapon of war rather than ever-day-carry.
@@euansmith3699 This? Just my EDC mace. Why do you ask.
@@euansmith3699 for mounted soldiers, they were attached to the saddle.
@@euansmith3699 I'd guess a belt loop would suffice in the field, so you'd just have the shaft bouncing around. But you'd be wearing thick padding all around you, doubt the shaft would hurt that much.
But this got me thinking - did knights wear all of their armour all the time, or would something like gambeson, mail and sidearm suffice when on a march with a big army? Then dress up in plates and full war gear when a battle was imminent. I'm in the understanding that knights had assistants with them, who would lug around most of their stuff and help gearing up; I'd keep the mace with the other weapons and gear until gearing up for battle.
I think in the crusades knight would wear full gear while on the march, as horse archers could use hit-and-run tactics etc, but was this the norm back in Europe? Did they need to be ready for action all the time? Field battles were pretty rare anyways.
E: Of course levies and lower ranks of soldiers would carry pretty much everything they have all the time.
@@euansmith3699 There is a thing called a "frog" used for axes and maces. Its basically a piece of leather that hangs off your belt (much like a belt pouch would) that would have a ring on it. You drop the haft through the ring. The version for swords/daggers had laces to secure a sheath/scabbard. Though you could also just jam it in your belt it wouldn't be very comfy or easy to draw.
First of all, I’ve decided I want to be Tod when I grow up. The shear joy you bring to the videos makes them fun to watch. Second, please please please show us some videos of you actually crafting some of these pieces. You talk about the construction process but I think it would be amazing to watch the creation of these items along with you explaining why it was done a particular way. Keep up the amazing work!
I'm guessing that pretty much the main target would be the head.
The helmets rounded, so they add pointy flanges, so it bites. You knock the guy a few times, he gets a concussion and goes night night for a while.
That, or just like the bow, you hit the thinner joints or articulations and make them seize up. The collarbone region would probably also be vulnerable since they snap relatively easily.
Even hands and arms - a well landed blow would incapacitate it and give you a snowballing advantage in a fight.
@@DzinkyDzink Yeah, especially if you manage to hit their hand. You're pretty much garrantees to break SOMETHING in there.
@@RaccKing21 Another aspect is that you will likely dent the thinner part of the armor to an extent that will limit movement severly.
I have never used a real mace against human targets, but I was trained in riot control using a riot baton.
Aside from the legally banned targets of the skull, face, throat (and the whole neck), solar plexus, groin and over the heart... There were the recommended targets such as knees, elbows and wrists.
Striking a joint with concentrated force inflicts a lot of pain (and can inflict a moderate injury) and that pain will at least momentarily take the rioter out of their violence.
Then you drag them behind the front line for the support lines to do the cuff and transport.
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So it seems that using a mace in combat would be similar, with the riot control 'illegal' targets back on the menu. And the point is not the mace kill, but the reduction of your opponent to a stunned ball of pain who will either surrender or be the victim of your rondel dagger depending on your rules of engagement.
Knees would've also been a target
Copper. Such a simple solutin, yet it's been eluding me for years. I think I just made a breakthrough. Thanks Tod.
It'd be interesting to see "side by side" comparisons of how this mace handles relative to contemporary single handed axes and swords. I've heard video games get it wrong, but I'd like to see how far off they really are.
Extremely far off, or not so much - depending on the game you pick to analyse. Once you dig up some specimens and gather your sample and all stats, then try to see how that would compare to whatever character you are playing (or seeing) in the game it will give you a good enough idea :)
@@AKRex "Extremely far off, or not so much" .... brilliant.
@@papalaz4444244 sometimes she goes, sometimes she doesn't. thats the way she goes.
That would be an interesting thing to look at
@@googlename3859 Wise words, Ray.
Bought the grotesque medieval mace from you a few days ago. It arrived fast and is fantastic, I love it . Going to put it on my wall for all to see. Thank you.
As someone that owns more than one of Tod's maces & daggers, I agree they are great value for money! Can't go wrong with his stuff
Thanks - glad you like them
@@tods_workshop yeah, it's good stuff. You do hella good work, keep it up :)
well damn. I need to get one when I get the money to spare now lol.
@@5peciesunkn0wn you do! His stuff is good. I only bought the nace heads and hafted them myself, but you can buy the fully assembled versions too :)
I just noticed he had a workshop. Gonna get me some Daggers. Love if he made warhammers.
It's actually quite neat to see plate armour doing its thing. And those maces and daggers are exquisite.
It makes sense the head is not exaggeratingly large. You still want speed and dexterity with a weapon, even if its a mace or hammer. Great recreation definitely puts an end to a lot of my questions about maces and their use.
Thanks and glad to help
@@tods_workshop do any of your demonstrations test the armor damage, when a broadsword is held by the blade and the hand protection bars used as a mace?
@@george2113 a murder stroke?
Check skallagrim's channel, pretty sure he has done a few tests against armor.
I agree. I'd rather take a hatchet into a fight than a woodcutter's axe. They dodge your slow, clumsy swing and suddenly you're eating their counterattack.
@@dmtaboo_truth7052 in a similar way I like the light camp version of the bush ax, tho it probably wouldn't work on an armored opponent. I think your reasoning is sound.
It's my understanding that flanges are more for "biting" and preventing glancing than localizing damage. The localized pressure from the flange does more in the way of ensuring broad transfer of energy than creating a dent in armor.
So many of my friends love various swords. But maces, hammers and crushing axes always had my personal love. Great video!
It is odd, but I have little interest in long swords, but love single handers, particularly falchions and maces and of course darts
@@tods_workshopits ok Todd ill let it slide I've always loved the sword spear things. Think their called a sword staff or svardstav
I love to see the sheer amount of fun from this man's face when talking about making medieval weaponry, and (of course) using it.
Glad to see some new stuff. I always thought that maces never got the modern publicity they deserved, like swords do.
Beautiful mace. Not a single ounce of unnecessary weight, nothing extra, no flair, a killing instrument stunning in its simple eloquence
wouldn't more weight on the end end up with a more powerful blow, not too much weight ofc
If you strike an armored opponent with a point, and it punctures or makes a deep dent in a place where the armor is supposed to allow the wearer to bend, and the damage hinders their ability to move because their armor is jammed up, you've weakened your opponent even if you haven't actually wounded them. Or if you strike an attachment point like a rivet, you might break a piece of armor loose or off entirely. You could strike the visor and compromise their ability to see through it, etc.
And so in that sense, I think it's fair to say that those spikes and flanges ARE for penetrating (or at least deforming) armor, not just concentrating force for the purpose of wounding the opponent.
I'd call that deformation, which is a feature of penetration but not exclusive to it. Turning armour concave into someone would equally do this without piercing.
Tod, compare the spike mace with a round (spherical) mace. It may help to show the idea of the spike's function. it may help to show how the spikes provide "grip" on the target so that the energy doesn't glance off.
As always a very interesting episode!
Using full force blows you should consider wearing at least protective eyewear though. One day a piece of armour or weapon will come flying at your face.
Agreed - you are right
@@tods_workshop they may be right but will you listen? You don't seem the type, no offense intended of course, you're a lovely guy.
Love to see a true craftsman at their work. I'll watch everything you put out with a smile my friend
The two other main striking points for maces are the collar bones, you can fairly easily snap off someone collerbone and most armors are jointed on the shoulders, or are covered by a relatively loose pauldron which will flex much more than the rigidly attached breastplate.
The helmet is the main target, and even with a steel helm a hit to the head can concuss or even kill you outright.
It would be interesting to see tests like this conducted on a anatomic model in armour with replica bones - mythbusters style- to get an idea of the impact that blunt force would have on the squishy bits under that steel plate
the head is much harder to hit than the torso. And if you miss you're horribly vunerable
In fact the collarbone will take a lot of force from the breastplate too, so you would just have to be close if it was a powerful hit.
Pure opinion from a physical chemist. I think the sharpened flanges are still a type of "penetration" but like you said all the mass into one location. Nadine Glaser et al states, "fracture threshold of the human skull is 14.1 to 68.5 J", with a baseball bat having a peek energy threshold of 140 J. I imagine that this goth mace would have roughly 200 J of potential when struck full force.
While the force of the mace would still be painful and energy required to fracture bones, but a hit of a rounded mace upon mail would disperse a considerable amount of energy before further absorption by the gambeson. The heaving and movement of the mail rings and gambeson would create a large surface area of applied force and considerable dispersal. Possibly, the flange point is designed to push past a chain link or break it, so that the barb of the flange can push past and apply considerable amounts of energy to 1 location of a gambeson. This would be more than enough to perforate an organ, collapse a lung, burst vessels with broken bones as a given.
Purely opinion because it would require testing, but I think that these "sharp" versions of these maces were probably designed for a different set of uses, like chain mail, compared to their blunted counterparts. Overall, I think it's still a type of penetration, but a way of penetrating kinetic force. Thoughts?
That mace against the plate was interesting. Against a helmet I suspect, based on that dent in the plate, this would be brutal. Easy concussions or cracked skull I'd think, assuming it didn't glance off.
Thank you for the explanation. I am trying to think of how or when they would use a mace and maybe it was when one's sword broke. The soldier would then grab his mace which might have allowed him to live another day to fight.
I love maces, most show, movies, and videos always go for swords but not enough attention goes to the crunching power of the mace plus they can have cool designs too
I really appreciate the effort and cost you go to for us, no one else is really willing to smash hand crafted arms and armour
I always considered maces to be 'anti-joint' weapons. Solid hit from a mace on a knee/elbow/shoulder will effectively cripple the opponent even when fully armored.
I wouldn’t say anti-joint more the blunt force is good against hard targets.
@@allstarwoo4 You can't do much damage directly to center mass with a mace, as Todd shown in the video. Sure, it would hurt, but won't give you enough advantage over the opponent. On the other hand, hits on the joints are crippling, both from blunt impact and from spikes on the mace bending the steel armor inwards. Joints are very fragile.
@@lazyman7505 I don’t disagree just more of technicality. The clavicle is really good target for the mace but is not a joint. And I don’t mean hard targets as in armor but points where there not a lot of muscle covering bone.
Can we quantify how much force made it through the armor? Maybe just some ShockWatch labels under the armor to get a rough gauge. Of course, the dream would be a ballistics gel model with faux bones inside to see if you could get breakages through gambeson, lamellar, mail, and plate.
I'd like it if Sauron was scary strong and fast so his huge mace was quick and nimble as well as intimidating.
Todd advises Sauron in the Second Age -> Sauron dunks on Isildur -> The Third Age sees all the lands covered in Darkness
Good news. He was scary strong and fast which is why 2 champions of the free people fell to him in combat at the same time. He was only defeated by freak incident that nobody could have foreseen.
@@acephantom903 good. baddies should be nail hard.
@@acephantom903 Gilgalad was an Elven king, of him the harpers sadly sing... the last who's land was fair and free, between the mountains and the sea.
You can get impact indicator or monitor that they use in packages and crash dummies, would be interesting to see how much energy is transferred through different armor.
Performed exactly like I expected. Late medieval/early Renaissance plate armor was incredibly effective (as long as you didn’t shoot at it with a
musket).
And sometimes even then 🙂
@@Washeek- that's what that famous "Italian steel" was designed for - to stop shot
Before then, shot would make nice little holes 😅😅
The crux here is the cost. A set of plate armor would cost more that 1000 times the cost of 1 such mace. If you have 10000 guys and you need them protected against such weapons, it would cost a lot.
@@andrew3203 Which is why only nobility and professional soldiers had full plate generally speaking.
I believe the mace was for breaking bones and breaking armour figuratively and literally, if you're in full plate and your opponent has crushed your armour in with a mace you most likely wont be able to move once the hinges in the plates covering your arm(and possibly your bones) are caved in
Great sales pitch and fun video. I didn’t know the larger maces were hollow, I assumed the they were just super heavy, cool to know.
I always think about Buhurt (full contact medieval fighting) when I think of a mace vs armour. All of their weapons are blunted yet they still get injuries despite the safety regulations. I can't imagine how devastating these may have been during an actual battle.
Also, the maces can’t be very heavy at all in war games like that either.
People really underestimate anything blunt. Where they glorify swords, which really are shit unless it knight vs knight or Calvary vs unarmored. Guys in WWI kept legs off and chairs and stuff to use as clubs for trench fighting. Native Americans would volley their muskets once and then rush in and use them as clubs.
Honestly a sword is one of the last things I would want on a battlefield. I’d rather have the mace, a pole-hammer over anything. Unless I’m going up against a trained, seasoned veteran, they’ll probably miss their sword poke and I may be able to get in a little too close for a sword and whale on them.
You want the simplest thing possible in a fight like that. You’re not going to survive many of them, and you’re going to lose all of your fine motor skills. Very few people build up/have the disposition to keep their nerve in war.
Would be interesting to know if you could measure the concussive blow on the inside of the armour to see if it would cause a concussion, broken bone or internal bleeding
I wonder what forces you could measure if Todd had an accelerometer or those force patches Mythbusters use to use in his test dummies. Maybe help quantify just how much damage a mace or blunt object did.
As I understand it the flanges are there to prevent, or circumvent, the deflection capabilities of plate armor specifically.
This by biting into the plate letting the kinetic energy transfer more easily and directly, compared to say a round headed mace that might lose a lot of it's force by sliding on the curved surfaces.
If you use the mace, as you suggest in this video, to hit places not covered by plate then the flanges don't really have a purpose, and you might as well have a round head.
It might of course be that the flanges are a way to increase the "volume" of the mace head, increasing the size but not the weight to allow for easier hitting.
Would be interesting to see more experiments with them.
No, they do. Concentrated force breaks bones far more easily. That's the purpose of a mace.
Hypothesis - you're supposed to hit with the space inbetween the two flanges in order to create a sturdy bite...
@@mandowarrior123 No they do-what?
Of course force more concentrated will have a bigger impact, what I'm talking about is the designed shape of the flanges and how against soft targets they offer no real advantages over other shapes. As demonstrated.
If the goal is to break bones behind cloth armour why choose such a complex shape?
If it's to break open ring mail armour, for what purpose? Since it would only leave you back at defeating the cloth armour underneath if you succeed.
@@DzinkyDzink This is the theory I've heard.
The edges of two flanges bite into the plate, preventing the mace slipping and making sure that all that force is transferred.
I've been making one myself. I used modern welding to make the head solid. The craftsmen of the past were extremely skilled for their level of technology.
I made a flanged mace on a whim years ago. Mine is definitely heavier, but all in all, very similar. It’s hard explain, but when you are holding something like that, you get a sense of just how devastating it would be to take hit from it. It would be horrible to see the results of that hitting someone that wasn’t armored. I suspect even someone that is moderately armored would be very bruised and probably have some broken bones.
Every time I hold a purpose built weapon, there's an odd sense to it. Doesn't really matter if it's a cold close weapon or firearm, though heavy close combat wepons like maces feel the best.
Guess it's something genetic in humans, holding a big stick, suddenly feeling safe and in control...
I had a similar thing happen after chopping wood a while back. I have a knack for recreating sensations in my thoughts and got a sense from chopping the wood of how it would feel to get hit in a bone with an axe.
It was unpleasant to imagine XD
@@matthewbreytenbach4483 Reality is worse imo. Been only hit by an axe once and it was a glancing blow, but had some unrelated surgery done with extraction of supports later. And let me tell you. A foreign object touching your bone while you're feeling it is incomparable to any other sensation. Because suddenly, things are where they're not supposed to be and you have an acute sense of wrongness. At least I did and can still remember it.
@@Washeek
I can imagine, unfortunately. Now with added context!
All jokes aside, thanks for sharing. You good these days?
@@matthewbreytenbach4483 Kind of you to ask. Thanks yeah I've mostly recovered, had some torn ligament tissue in my wrist and a complicated surgery to fix it. It was two years ago. I've got lasting limit in mobility of the wrist, but its nothing to cry over.
I must say, I was super shocked that there was 0 painkilling effort when they were pulling out the metal braces and doubly shocked that it didn't hurt, but the feeling was quite overwhelming, both from the visual and tactile experience.
10/10 would recommend to aspiring writers that wanna write gritty close combat scenes XD XD.
I'm looking into my options to get back to swinging a sword or another weapon, but things seem to keep getting in the way, probably don't miss it as much as I thought I did.
Awesome video and thank you for the demonstration. The impact is far more important than the piercing for maces and would really shatter people even under the gambeson and chainmail. I would like to see this done to a ballistic dummy wearing armor to see the real damage.
balistics torso needs to be used here! love the videos!
Only if it's one of those with the bones inside, otherwise ballistic gel is a crap analogue for human flesh against melee weapons. Ti's not even a perfect analogue vs. bullets. It's just close enough and it's a consistent medium for testing bullets. But blades tend to cut right through it, as do arrows.
@@Riceball01 thats exactly what i meant. wish there was a closer analog
In my opinion it does not need to penetrate anything. Due to the law of conservation of energy, if you strike somebody in armor with a blunt heavy object, the energy that you project onto the armor will travel in the direction it is applied in that means the energy will travel through enemy's body and cause the damage to the internal organs and bones either way. I think the hexagonal spikey head is there to prevent the mace from sliding sideways when hitting a bulged sections of (lets say the breastplate) thus making sure that as much energy created will be transferred onto the enemy as possible due to the mace "having a little bit of bite" on the armor to prevent it from sliding.
I have always been a fan of the gothic mace. It's beautiful and terrifying at the same time.
Might be interesting to get some of those accelerometers to put on the dummy when testing the blows to measure the effectiveness of the different forms of armor in absorbing impact force from these blows. They can be calibrated to measure varying levels of injury that could be expected for a human body to suffer based on the amount of impact force experienced.
I always liked the brutal simplicity of maces and picks, so often ignored in movies and games but still absolutely devastating weapons. That museum text blurb called it horseman's weapon, so I would expect the added momentum from galloping horse would make it even more damaging.
Jason, if you're reading this you know what to do...
I'd have thought a cavalry weapon would have a slightly longer haft, but I'm no expert..
Not to say it was not cavalry, but equally not sure how they could write that as an absolute
@@snafu2350 Ye it seems too small but we're no expects. It is just the haft afterall so maybe there were variants?
@@tods_workshop 15th, 16th, and 17th century mentions of maces are almost always about their use from horseback. Burgundian Ordonnances 1473 has them at the saddle for the men at arms (only for the saddle and only for the men at arms), du Bellay says for the mace to be at the pommel of the saddle for the man at arms, Sir James Turner says they were "ancient weapons for a horseman", Robert Barret says "and at his sadle bow, a mace" for the man at arms, and this is the only weapon that he specifies where it should be, Humfrey Barwick mentions "a Pistoll or mace" for the cavalry, but not for the infantry, Bernardino de Mendoza says "the pistoll still remayneth with the light horse, which most carrie at the saddle pummell, in steede of a mace or fawchion which they were wonte to hange thereat". In "Coll. of Arms", it says "were well doon to have a mase at the sadell".
From the inventories I have personally seen (and this is anecdotal ofc), maces stop being common in the 2nd half of the 14th century (as opposed to being almost omnipresent before). In general though, i would personally argue that there is more evidence for them being specialized weapons for the mounted melee during the "age of plate" than otherwise.
The problem with striking from a galloping horse is that all of the extra energy is gonna yank on you as well. If it even gets a little bit stuck you're either getting your weapon yanked from your hand or you're getting yanked from your horse.
That's why many believe it was the flail that was a cavalry weapon. All you need is enough force so you don't need the follow through a solid shaft provides. Meanwhile a flexible shaft allows the weapon to disperse energy by moving so you don't get yanked as much.
Proper flail technique would have been to go for the head (not too hard from a horse), any lower and you'd risk wrapping around something.
If you look at how Maces are used, they are usually aimed at the shoulder or head, to cause concussion and break the collar bone, aiming at the breastplate is just suboptimal, thick armor, and the rib cage is designed to stop trauma
Bring back Weird Weapons! :D
Love the mace, would love to buy one like that. Looks good for home defence for when you need pain/punishment rather than lethality.
That mace on an unarmored oponent is absolutely lethal. Not immediately incapacitating only on limbs maybe. But anywhere in the torso, not to talk about the head, will bust something up.
@@kevinlobos5519 Of course not the torso (hard at least) or head!
Whole point is to inflict pain and break things. Again in a country like England, if they drop everything and say "what are you gonna do, stab me?" You're gonna look bad running them through with a sword or hacking off a limb.
Breaking an arm or two to the point they give up and bugger off, would be the idea.
@@kevinlobos5519 that mace is incapacitating to anyone anywhere on the torso, Head, neck or legs. The energy transfer sends an enormous shock through the system that most people simply cannot recover from quickly, if at all. Follow with a second third blow, etc. But then again we are talking about close quarters hand-to-hand. Most people have never experienced that pain and shock.
Make no mistake that is lethal force. Even with light armor burst organs such as spleen, liver, intestine, even pancreas, lungs, and heart have been documented as being ruptured by single mace strikes on unarmored or lightly armored people. Imagine two grown men closing at full sprint. 15-20 mph/35-50kph closing speeds are documented in football routinely. And double that is common on foot. Now add in a pitcher or bowler arm capable of 90mph /130kph blow. Reduce that down due to the mass of the weapon. But the mass transfer of one body to a fist-sized metal object is going to always have lethal potential energy. By design.
@@christopherneelyakagoattmo6078 Depends how hard you hit though, doesn't it. Not every blow needs to be a full on welly, or to a vital region.
In comparison it's a bit hard to do a tap with a bladed weapon, isn't it?
Excellent choice of shirt for the episode.
Talking about hitting in different areas made me realize that's probably why it's small, light, and agile, it's not for knocking people down in one hit, it's for targeting the joints and exposed areas to break bones underneath, rattle heads, or maybe even cause armor jams. The agility is more important than the weight?
I’ve always felt that Mace’s (and warhammers) are vastly underrated as weapons. Also they must have been familiar to use for conscripted farm workers
They were actually king of the battlefield (aside from spears) and knights hated them for good reason. They are easier to make than good swords, need considerably less training and while they can't penetrate armour (like a sword!) it will make gruesome dents cause concussions etc. The wielder of such a mace or warhammer also doesn't have to worry about breaking, it can't get blunt (because it already is, lol) etc. The reason we value swords so high is actually ridiculous: Because they were more expensive and harder to master, they were mostly popular among nobility. The sword is kind of the IT girl of weapons. It got romanticized early on and we kept this tradition in movies, literature and now computer games. Most games give the sword the best stats, they are the gold standard everything else is measured against - take any (pen&paper) RPG and you've got a slew of inferior weapons like daggers that are only used when your character is restricted by the rules while every weapon that does more damage comes with hefty disadvantages like less to hit chances etc.
So we keep on the myth. Even the famous samurai with their fancy katanas relied mainly on their bow as the main weapon. As the joke goes, if a samurai boasts how good he is with his sword all other samurai just think "ah, dude is bad at archery" :) And their most feared opponent weren't that much other samurai, it were the common spearmen. Hence the bow, the only way to outplay them, but close range swords almost always lose to spears.
On the contrary, In Europe Maces were mostly used by horsemen, therefore mostly the social elite.
@@Puschit1 completely agree!
It's a solid weapon strong enough to deflect larger pole arms, or block one handed weapons - which can also be used to counter attack and strike at vulnerable areas by being small enough and light enough to be fast and accurate with swings: go for the sword arm at the hand, wrist or elbow or even the knee bellow the shield. If someone over-extends or is has become fatigued to the point where they leave themselves open after a swing, you can bonk someone's helmet in a specific direction to throw them off balance and then follow up with a good body check to knock them on the ground.
I love seeing real weapons compared to the fantasy versions. I always smile at warhammers the size of sledgehammers, axes so large the momentum would leave you horribly vulnerable or swords that are longer than spears. 🤣
Indeed, though in fantasy you are also dealing with mythical races and materials - it might look unwieldy for a human when made in real world materials, but to that dwarf who is hugely dense so their COM isn't as effected by flailing it around and strong enough, so the weapon doesn't move them about as much as they move it... Well then even in steel its going to be quite handy, make some of the bits that don't need to be heavy in the magic dust coated extra light and strong materials of that world and it is even more so, and maybe even the relatively puny humans can use it just fine.
Warhammers the size of sledgehammers are actually mauls. Mauls are probably the inspiration behind the fantasy Warhammer.
i got a dagger and a sword from tod. the quality is really high and im thrilled with them.
honestly im going to have to get a mace, and a crossbow.
and maybe a warhammer....and a poleaxe...
I like that he included the bronze/iron mace heads since they only cost about $12 if you really want one...maybe $20 with a handle.
If you take a big steel nut, M32 or larger, and screw it onto a wooden handle, the resluting mace would probably be ~90% as effective as those showen here ;)
And basically free if you can find a nut and a stick :)
@@hernerweisenberg7052 I mean a steel pipe and a T connector if you want low effort
I love the smooth advertisement at the end. After giving a lecture about historical accuracy and attention to detail, the video would've almost felt incomplete without adding that you are actually selling the kind of stuff that clears the bar you just set.
In fact, it was so fitting that I don't know if this was a 12 min long add I just watched but enjoyed like a regular video anyway. :D
Well this popped up just in time :)
I'd be curious about the impact of an off center hit to the breastplate (maybe on a hanging heavy bag to measure energy transfer?) with either the flanged mace or one with a round head to see if there's a difference in glancing off.
Always liked maces and often prefer them in rpg games just for the role playing aspects, with various success I might add lol.
That aside I think some people don't realise how effective concussion hits really are🤕. Thanks for another informative video.🙂
Definitely. Even with the plate you are shattering ribs with a mace like that.
I would like to add that maces were not used for hitting full plate armor but vulnerable areas especially the neck and shoulders where they could break the spine or shatter a clavicle. For massive impact you would need a morning-star for big momentum and heavier mass.
First ❤ love it when he starts bashing things 😊
I really appreciate people who put in the work and passion to discover the secrets of our ancestory. Interesting clip, thank you
Mace looks identical to those used by Parthians (1000 years earlier)?
Sorry Todd but the 10 elves and men swept away in pieces with every swing of Sauron’s mace would beg to differ…
Content like this is why I've bought 3 daggers off you. And as always, I'm glad to see more non-bollacks daggers in your shop.
In defense of Sauron (in the movies) his mace created kinetic explosions on impact that would blast dozens of soldiers at a time. I think a weapon like that would do just fine on a medieval battle field lol.
Thank you for the presentation 🙂
But if it were smaller and lighter then he would increase his DPS
_Force concentration IS armour penetration._ That's what a spike does, including a spear-tip. A one-handed mace is not really meant to defeat a decent breastplate, it's a sidearm.
And obviously the mace has less penetration than other weapons, like warpicks.
What a fantastic channel, thank you so much Todd, have loved this video. Going to watch another right now
Todd arguing with Sauron for his weapon design is just worlds coming together in the most hilarious way possible.
I usually wait until the end of videos to like them. As soon as you made the comment about Sauron, I had to like it! I'm a big LOTR fan, BTW.
Maces would have the same targets we use in baton strikes. You aim for areas where bones are close to the surface.
Target would not be middle of chest. It would be head, collarbone, side of ribs, hip, forearm, back of neck, joints.
Hey Tod, i'm not sure if this has been suggested (or if you even read the comments), but i think it would be really cool if you could show a little more of the fabrication process, if this is something you are willing to share.
The whole brazing process sounds pretty unique, especially on this type of weapon. From the "spiky ball on a shaft", the technical gap till this one and the process behind it could use some demonstration to illustrate further. Despite your clear explaination it still is quite hard to picture how the whole thing works out in the forge while the metal is hot.
I'm really curious about making that much brazing at once, assembly and quenching to get it *that* solidly setted in place on the shaft to whitstand serious use, especilly working from museum pieces, and to picture the technical/time saving constraints you got along the way.
Anyways, thanks for the video. It's always a pleasure when you go for more wargear field testing, even on a smaller scale than siege weapons ^^
Great channel! I always have to tell people that the flanges and stuff are not for puncturing through plate. Even if they do punch a hole through plate, you're not gonna fit an entire bec de corbin head through a 4mm hole in 3mm of mild steel. They're for absolutely wrecking the joints underneath and giving the person wearing a steel bucket on their head a mad concussion
This sweatshirt must be from around 1478 as well 💪😁 what a legendary piece of cloth armor 😎
The witch king's flail in Return of The King was so heavy that the actor actually couldn't lift it, they needed a guy in a green suit underneath the mace to help lift it by benchpressing it. But by god does that thing look cool.
I wish that I had more time to watch instead of listening to content while at work. Truly fascinating! Top notch, authentic content :)
From my College days as a materials engineering student, I can say a braze welded joint is actually fairly strong. We tested using 1/8" by 1" flat stock strips, and brazed a 1/2" lap joint, and then tested it in tension. The mild steel failed before the braze joint did, and it held several thousand pounds.
Ah yes, the heavy stick. The close runner up to history's best weapon, the pointy stick.
Every time you swing that at the test model, I could only imagine feeling it, but worst. Good on you for simulating the Medival Weaponry. Keep up the good work
Will this mace be for sale on your website? It is a beautiful piece!
The problem with this mace is that it's a mace designed for Calvary as seen as that it has no long point at the end like a stiletto. An infantry's/knights mace is designed to wear your opponent down with crippling blows targeted at joints to lock up armor or in the lucky case their limbs in total. Then you take the pointed end and aim for underneath the helmet, Eye/mouth slits, Thighs or in the armpit to deal the killing blow.
Beaks and Points aren't meant to go through mail. They are meant to punch through plates like a can opener. A mace head with a good amount of weight will break bones and tissue under the mail regardless of points. Points are added to target armor plates.
You could emphasize the protectiveness of the armor and effect of the weapon by putting something breakable underneath, or something to indicate where an injury would happen and to what extent. Like something ceramic with paint or powder in it, for example. Would be rather interesting to watch.
One of my fave vids of yours Todd. Ive been interested in maces and how they work on armour for a while. In part its worth considering not just how they perform in isolation but comparing the same blows vs what a sword would do in the same situation. sword and mace both weigh about the same but the mail and plate would both reduce the cutting force of a sword to almost nothing. So why not use a mace which gives up on cutting in exchange for more efficient energy transfer. You mention that this is a cavalry weapon which would very much make sense since a thrust without the lunging force of your legs is probably a fair bit weaker.
I've always loved maces.
Something about hitting people with heavy, pointy objects really fascinates me and just is "me".
And that flanged mace? Absolutely brilliant O_O
11/10, but nothing I wouldn't expect from you, Tod
not piercing you're right, likely useful hitting joints to break the armored joint & the bone beneath perhaps.
When people talk about "armor penetration" in relation to concussive weapons, I don't think its typically meant literally as making an actual hole in the armor, but shorthand way to say it does damage through armor. This is especially true for those who have a lot of gaming (video or table top) in their background, since as a game mechanic it doesn't really matter, only if that part of the damage is allowed to ignore armor (unless there is some durability that is being reduce, but that would be a separate armor damaging mechanic).
Yes sir. Your mace looks unprecedented. I'd like to see a lot more content!
Superb weapon by the time, light, strong, and pretty brutal. I really doubt that a man cannot be off-balance after a good hit of this mace. In a battle, all you need is a moment of oportunity, and a blunt hit could be decisive to end the battle by handicapping the opponent. Although, full-plates could counter this weapon. Thanks for sharing this.