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Rubel Shelly: History of "Brotherhood Politics" with Caleb Robertson
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- Опубликовано: 18 авг 2024
- What if there was more to the story? Does anything change when you learn Rubel Shelly's background with the "conservative wing" of the "Church of Christ"?
Why is it that so many of our young men lose their faith after attending "our" Bible Departments?
Rubel Shelly stands as a picture of young men trying to maneuver through "Brotherhood Politics" while trying to keep their conscience in tact.
Rubel Shelly was educated at Freed-Hardeman College, Harding Graduate, and Vanderbilt University. He has written over twenty books.
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What a wonderful interview. Thank you, Caleb, for talking with Brother Shelly. Thank you for the kindness, respect, and appreciation you showed him. Thank you for encouraging him to continue writing. That was very gracious of you.
I knew that he was not held in high regard in some circles, but I had not read any of his material, heard him speak, or known a lot about him until now. So, I’m very grateful to you for this introduction to Brother Shelly and his work. I am impressed by his humility and his love for the Lord, for truth, and for Scripture. I was very blessed by this conversation. Thanks again, Caleb.
Wes,
Thanks for the comment; I'm glad you enjoyed the history.
I would like to note that my interview (focused on 1984 Rubel Shelly) is not intended to be a recommendation of the "2023 Rubel Shelly". In 1986 he wrote his book "A Case for Acapella", but until he retired in Dec. 2022 he was on staff at an "instrumental congregation", and in May of 2023 he lectured on Pepperdine with women preachers. I'm opposed to both of those items just as he to be.
His history needed to be told so that current generations could learn how the "political game" goes. I respect much of his older work, and am confident that a book on the Old Testament by him would be good, but as David Edwin Harrell Jr. says, "I just can't work and worship with him".
The churches of Christ are under considerable strain with cultural and political changes happening so quickly in this country.
I hold worship service in the highest regard and will never listen to a woman preaching nor singing with instrumental accompaniment.
Having been born in Roanoke,VA and soon to retire at 67 and 6 months, i hope to find a church of Christ when, Lord willing, i can finish my days in my home state of Virginia.
Hopefully the Lord's church is still strong in biblical foundation in the western areas of Virginia.
@@calebrobertson9589 did you have a chance to talk to Rubel about any of his errors? And if so, did you make any headway?
@@chasegreen6685 - You know the point was not about Rubel in 2023? Did you get that the interview was about the hypocrisy during 1984?
How does Rubel get noted for his error, but then the colleges use teachers on their lectureships who are identical to Rubel? They just have a less popular name? Did you get that was the point of the interview?
You can disagree with Rubel, and I do and he knows I do, but we can't just keep ignoring the massively hypocritical politics happening at FHU, MSOP, etc,...
Hey caleb could you reccomend some of that sound material to me. Id like to give it a read. @calebrobertson9589
Caleb, my background is in tv/radio. I was trained to conduct interviews. And by the way (in the spirit of disclosure) I am a Christian. I am a member of The Lord’s Church. I would be considered a tad more “progressive” (although I hate the labels).
All that said, let me commend you on a master-class interview!! This is simply WONDERFUL!! It’s not easy to conduct this kind of an interview, but you made it look easy. My goodness, Brother, what an AMAZING JOB!!
Thank you for the kind and encouraging words.
I had the privilege of meeting Rubel about 25 years ago. I was “going through some things.” I called the office where Rubel was preaching the phone.
Unbelievably, RUBEL ANSWERED THE PHONE! Not a Secretary. Not an answering-machine. Rubel himself, answered the phone.
He asked where I was. I was probably 2-3 miles away. He asked if I could come by immediately. I said that I could. It was late in the day, on a Monday or Tuesday. I’m sure he was ready to call it a day and head home.
But he let me talk. He listened to me. He prayed for me. He gave me his personal number for future reference. In short, A TRUE MINISTER!
I had NOTHING to add to his life. I wasn’t popular. I had no money. I wasn’t even one of his members, nor was there anyone around to witness Rubel “going above and beyond” for this anonymous guy who just called and then just showed up.
The whole meeting lasted a good 2 hours. It changed my life profoundly. I am forever grateful to God for Rubel Shelley.
PS: A WONDERFUL JOB with this interview, Caleb!
Love Rubel's integrity. I appreciate the interview Caleb. I first read I Just want to Be a Christian in 1989 and was amazed. I first heard him "live" and met him in '92 when speaking at Harding Grad in Memphis at the Grace, Faith and Works lecture they had. Politics were on full display. It was a turning point in my life.
Well done Caleb!! I'm proud that after all of these years that someone in the brotherhood has had the guts to interview brother Shelly. This is one for the history books, both for posterity and providence. We have no way of knowing all of the good that will come from this interview, especially for future generations.
I guess we see how factious a fox can be. hates what we do matter what it is@@arcticfox2639
you get it@@arcticfox2639
@@arcticfox2639 Eph 4:5 speaks nothing of HS baptism you really are an awful teacher.
@dctalk4641 stop harassing her,DC, as she perpetually harasses Johnny, Caleb, and everybody else on WDTBS.
His book "I Just Want To Be A Christian" was a pivotal read in my faith journey. It allowed me to formulate the beliefs I was leaning toward and gave a me a beautiful biblical foundation to expand my fellowship. Great interview.
I enjoyed this interview, Caleb. Thank you for hosting such a gracious and respectful conversation.
This is one of the best interviews I’ve ever seen. I enjoyed every minute of it. Great job!
Thank you for your good effort Caleb. This was a blessing,
Brother Rubel, I believe you were the preacher at my Church Whitehaven! I also attended Harding from 72 through 75 before moving away. Lipsey family.
Monroe Hawley, of blessed memory, was one of my Shepherds in Milwaukee. His kind gentle gracious spirit shall not be forgotten. His books Redigging the Wells; The Focus of Our Faith; Is Christ Divided? are essential reading. His contribution to the 1985 FHC discussion on Restoration with Rubel Shelly is more than worth reading. Still.
For those who love the truth this was a landmark event. For those who hate Caleb Robertson this was a landmark event.
I am praying for Johnny & Caleb.
The "truth" really wasn't presented in this interview. It was just that: an interview intended to document history. Caleb behaved as do all good interviewers: he let the person do most of the talking, much like Johnny Carson. The one truth that stands out is how politics can make or break a person. It just did last Tuesday in my county: our representative voted to remove the confederate flag from the state flag. Heretofore, the people had voted on it, but not this time. Result: he was defeated in the election.
He’s not what I expected having heard a great deal about him while at MSOP.
Dr. Shelly always was a caricature of an archetypical villain. This gives me serious pause and makes me want to investigate brotherhood politics from a new and unbiased perspective.
Does not Mr. Shelley worship with a congregation that uses an instrument during worship? I'm merely asking because I believe he does.
@@brendanjobe6895 Not saying I endorse all of his positions. Just interesting to see the other side of the coin, especially in light of the ex parte fellowship with others who do the same as brother Shelly. It’s completely hypocritical to blast Shelly when we will fellowship Pepperdine as long as we do not speak its name.
@@bobcollier4540 That's 100% true: I certainly wasn't arguing that. I just wondered if he held membership with a congregation that uses the instrument during worship. It's a certainty that he believes in the direct personal and one-on-one indwelling and leading of the Spirit.
What Dr. Warren said and wrote was, "The Bible only makes Christians only - and the only Christians." You said, "I agree with Rubel, we are Christians only but not the only Christians." My question is, "How did they become Christians by following the Bible only, and who are these mysterious people?"
@@brendanjobe6895 who is “you”? If you are supplying dialogue for something I never said, then you ought not to do that.
@@arcticfox2639 it’s always easier to vilify people than to seek out common ground. It seemed to me brother Shelly is a very humble man. I disagree with him in some areas, but disagreement need not to be ugly.
Villains are good for plot lines and fundraisers. Existential threats are the best type of hysteria.
It doesn't suprise me for a moment Leroy Garret would have defended Rubel. Leroy and Carl Ketcherside were legalists. Carl openly admitted he enjoyed debating and fighting to win. But when Carl and Leroy changed their views of fellowships, they were ostracized from their original sect of the Churches of Christ. Rubel is of the 1980s what Carl Ketcherside was of the 1950s. And I thank God for men like them.
We’re a flawed fellowship, but better than we used to be-I agree hole heartedly with this comment. We have a way to go, but the fact this conversation can happen is a testament to that fact.
30:00 This is most preacher's secret of their heart
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 Great interview, Caleb!
My comments on your other videos are based on my surprise at your real positions on issues after watching this excellent interview. I was impressed because it's abnormal for anyone in the Church of Christ to take any interest at all in what someone believes who disagrees with them. I was under the impression that you support Shelly. When I watched your other videos, I was disappointed to learn that you hold firmly to the old school COC beliefs and are deeply entrenched in them. Peace sir.
"Excellent Interview... I was impressed... I was disappointed..." - Thank you for your vacillating opinions.
The fact that you watched the interview and still attempted to place me in a party, "support Shelly" or "Old school COC", shows the problem in your thinking.
Great interview!
Gwendolyn catching the archive! I have been hearing this guy’s name lately and want to know more about him and his stand on the gospel. Thanks for this interview ❤!
This is a fascinating interview. Thanks for sharing this. There's a strange irony in your trying to establish him as someone who should be recognize as someone significant within the sect while he keeps wanting to point people away from the sect, away from himself, to Jesus Christ and His Kingdom. We must decrease. He must increase.
My church of christ family and friends were decided after Ruble split several churches into liberal groups that his statement ( there are Christians in all denominations) that he's a false teacher
All my time with COC, they made this dude to be an absolute villain of the faith.
I feel and have experienced that churches of Christ have a completely different attitude about CENI when it is related to Church structure, worship, and baptism, but a completely different attitude about New Testament eschatology, which is very clearly presented in the New Testament. I found it necessary to step away in order to preserve my sanity in the face of really rash and un-Christian words and behavior.
I am in the body of Christ. Listen very carefully to what Rubel is saying. At the same time remember that he has profited from distancing himself from the Church. He is in the same category as max lucado.
Did you read Rubel's 1984 book "I Just Want to Be A Christian" ?
great point. Did you know the people Rubel fellowships are now being invited to speak at Freed Hardeman Lectures? Would you comment on Lucado 's crowd finding a place at Freed
enlightening interview, but sound volume is way too low.
I agree with what Rubel said on church racism. He is right, at one time we did have these views. Rubel has made many good decisions. I agree with Rubel, we are Christians only but not the only Christians. Thomas B Warren beleived we were Christians only and the only Christians. About church racism, read what Foy E Wallace Jr wrote in the Bible Banner about Marshall Keeble. Anyway, Rubel and I were Champs at FHC. Rubel is a scholar and in 1966 He attempted to have his first debate with a Church of God minister who was holding a meeting in Henderson TN.
For many years the church was racial. Foy Wallace jr in the Bible Banner in 1937 said that 100% of the white preachers in america would agree with what he said about Marsnall Keeble a famous black minister. I think he was right about the 100%. We all seem to have difficulty dealing with racism. May God help us as we deal with our fellowman.
@@JimMoss-vj4vv "Foy Wallace jr in the Bible Banner in 1937 said that 100% of the white preachers in america would agree with what he said about Marsnall Keeble a famous black minister."
I don't recall that statement - and I have all of the old Bible Banners. Could you tell me which issue it is in? And what did he say about Keeble prior to 1937, the statement that all of his fellow white preachers would agree with?
The year was 1941 not 1937, I cannot find the 100% comment. But I do remember reading the comment somewhere.
@@JimMoss-vj4vv What Dr. Warren said and wrote was, "The Bible only makes Christians only - and the only Christians." You said, "I agree with Rubel, we are Christians only but not the only Christians." My question is, "How did these other folks become Christians by following the Bible only, and who are these mysterious people?"
@@arcticfox2639 From you? No, I'm afraid not. Did you learn anything about answering questions?
thank you Caleb for this interview.
It will help me to do better evangelism and be a better misfit.
I heard things straight from the horses mouth and not 2nd or 3rd hand. jp
@@kevinking-kf2lb Johnny doesn't have a church, never has and never will.
poor poor k. you are not comfortable with what this interview means
Gwendolyn Thomas catching the archive ❤!
Do you have some of Mr. Shelly’s debates? I would love to hear some. Thanks 🙏 ❤
Rumor has it that when rubel’s father died it changed his faith. It caused him to leave the CHURCH OF CHRIST.
this not true
Regarding Mark 9, let us remember when that accrued, when those words were spoken, "they are not of us" it could not of been people of a denomination. There was only one church, the church that Christ built and died for. Denominations did not exists. They were simply brethren, members of the Lord's church that they did not know.
The church had not been established yet in Mark 9.
Mark 9 is not in context of the Lord's church. The church was never established until Acts 2. Mosaic law was still in effect while Mark 9 was occurring.
Denominations actually began 1st century. Many brothers in Christ get this fact wrong. Anytime you find divisions within the church that deviate from apostolic traditions which they had delivered, you then have denominations. And apostle Paul wrote specifically about that very occurrence during the 1st century.
@@kevinking-kf2lb I'm not protestant, I'm a Christian.
Following the scriptures which is simple from direct commandments and clear cut examples that explain those direct commandments makes it so easy to learn and obey. We should all seek to please God who made us instead of pleasing ourselves. And following the simple scriptures is the only path to success.
A group of Christians who have problems of division does not stop me from serving God correctly.
@@kevinking-kf2lb I'm not prideful. Your false understanding of salvation fails to incorporate self responsibility. God demands we have responsibility regarding our salvation. That's why apostle Paul wrote in Eph 2:8 that it is God's grace + man's faith. Not grace alone.
And also Paul wrote in Galatians 6:7-8 that we literally reap what we sow. To the flesh or to the spirit. So man does have responsibility regarding man's own salvation. God expects something from us, you cannot get around this infallible fact. The entire Bible is filled with man having responsibility.
Even though the sound quality was poor, I listened as attentively as possible and observe the setting carefully. First, body language was very present and not hidden. Second, it is very noticable when one takes a question or a thought presented and spends more time, with added thoughts not relative, and use up valuable time going nowhere. Third, I was very disappointed in that more direct questions were not asked about bro. Shelly's beliefs. If bro. Shelly is not standing on solid ground anymore, such should have been directly and straightforwardly addressed. It was not, sad to say. It seems to me that Caleb's approach to brethren he disagrees with (i.e. fellowshipping false brethren who speak on the same programs, etc) is pretty open and very direct, yet such was not present in this meeting. Very inconsistent to say the least. I appreciate the work the Robertsons are doing in exposing wrongs in the Lord's church, but this meeting was not so. What about 2 John?
I have been able to extract useful information from several sources. Stafford North, Jay Lockhart, Milton Sewell , Larry West, Royce Money, not to mention many sectarian pastors. Information was my goal and I didn't feel the least bit obliged to abide by rules preset by partisan fellowship.
Viewers are granted the right to voice disappointments. We on the other hand were not seeking anyone's approval.
Negative feedback is welcome. Keep in mind that interviews like this are near non existent. It takes a special person to cross into uncomfortable territory in order to see where one's past, might intersect another's present. I am not in fellowship with many of Rubel's critics today by virtue of the fact that 30 years later they are closer to Rubel than to me. B J Clarke , Keith Mosher, Phil Sanders,
and Milton Sewell to name a few. Those named are fellowshipping men who fellowship Rubel now.
Caleb's "friendly demeanor" is a testament to our convictions that our "enemies" could by God's grace , become those that assist the cause in the future.
Conversely, men like B J Clarke, Keith Mosher, and many of their party refuse to have any conversation with us, because we show their hypocritical positions described above.
Effort to speak to B J Clarke facebook.com/johnny.robertson.315/videos/10153300058854808
We live in a time of weak men with few convictions.
I generally agree with this statement, but have no clue what that has to do with this interview.
Caleb_______________your next interviiew should be with Pat Boone.
An interview with Pat Boone would be great. First of all Pat is a bible scholar and knows the history of the church. He was had an unreal relationship with the church. This would be the best interview possible in the church of christ.
Is Mr. Shelly teaching that there are Christians in other churches besides the church of Christ?
From the material I have read, Shelly will fellowship with anyone who holds to the seven ones in Ephesians 4. Any other disagreements beyond that doesn't seem to matter to him. He has no problem fellowshiping with denominations. The '80s Shelly was much different man that the current one. I have heard that his book on why we don't use MI in our worship was a great book, but then he embraced their use later on. He seems to be a nice guy who at one time was alinged with Scripture, but now has moved from Scripture in several areas.
@@LGministry this is so very sad ! This is why Christians must stay strong , sober and vigilant because Satan, the Master Deceiver can and will deceive the most elect. Thanks for your response. I heard a lecture that he gave on IM but then I heard him say something to the contrary so I wasn’t sure where he was coming from. I was not familiar with this person until here lately! 😊❤️
a “philosopher” AND “theologian”? ah. i see.
k. yeah, we’ve thought about all this.
what about the undenominated church the Christ built. it is His body having a simple organization. the early folks who have and have not been remembered by history, i think, wanted to simply go back to the bible and perhaps were tired of religion and culture. so its bad to go to christian college if you want to be a preacher or not a preacher. on our journeys and struggles is bad to learn from certain folk or group of folk (“institutions”) but not to online or books?
yeah there been a tendency and still “tendencies” we dont like, etc., let’s keep the balance and not discourage kids so they go to extremes.
i am younger than all of this, but enough with the tired sweeping and selective over generalizations and incessant micro focus on pet culture issues. this is one reason why lots of us are done with all of you. no one has any answers or consistency
I didn't understand one thing you tried to communicate
Why are you fellowshipping with a false teacher?