Formula One Radiator Technique - Explained
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- Опубликовано: 10 июн 2024
- How do engineers design formula one radiators? This video looks at the techniques involved with designing a radiator for racecar performance and cooling.
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Yes, I will be making non-f1 videos as well! Just thought I'd try a little segment on it as it had many requests. :)
Engineering Explained I'm curious as to your opinion on this. Even though radiators are a relatively small portion of the weight of a car, by my logic, this puts a lot more weight in the pods.
With a 20x20x10 radiator, you've got 400x of weight (x being average weight per cubic cm of the radiator including coolant). If you go to your rather extreme example of 60 degrees, that then becomes 16,000x, given the same weight per cubic cm. That's a 4 times heavier radiator for potentially minute power gains.
I'm not saying that this wouldn't work (If it didn't, I'm sure it wouldn't have been used in F1), but I'm not convinced of a net gain in performance. Am I missing something, or is this just one of those things that you have to fine tune and play with?
Let's be real here, the coolest part of the video was the rubber band. xD
Glad you enjoyed it!
You've inspired me to become a mechanical engineer. Thank you so much for these videos.
Excellent, glad you enjoy it!
Thanks for explaining stuff like this so a simpleton myself can understand it! Great videos and I'm looking forward to watching more.
Your rubber band example is so genius!
You are fast becoming engineerings Brian Cox to me. Please keep making these videos, they are fascinating to us novices.
You're an impressive tutorial master dude !
Great stuff.Thanks for your effort,I really enjoy the series.
That rubber band example was actually sexy👌🏼such well executed geometry, great video.
Thanks! Brilliant series!
awsome vids man, keep up the hard work I really appriciate it!
This was great. Keep these coming thanks mate
The amount of heat that you can remove from the radiator increases, since you are spreading it out more. If you don't remove the full potential of the radiator with a single flat area (it's tempt. continues to go up) by spreading out the fluid you can dissipate more heat. Size of the radiator is important as well as how much air passes through it.
Well done and good call with the rubber band
Interesting concept. Great video as well!
Fantastic lesson Mr EngineEx:) one of the most enjoyable instructional cid's I've seen yet. If my mathematic's teacher taught me using these type's of formula example's I would have been a much keener pupil, not to mention smarter too;) Great stuff!!!
your videos are bad ass dude! i love motorsports and the engineering behind it!! id like to be an engineer some day and your videos are really easy to follow haha
Thanks for this! That makes a lot of sense!
Thank you! I just keep thinking "Isn't that what I'm doing? :(" Oh well. Some of us get it!
Thanks!
Nice explanation. The fins are also angled within the cooling surface.
You have a pretty big smile in the beginning haha. I'm not used to that. Awesome vid, as usual. Thanks!
Wonderfully explained-- thank you sir
And the limitation of this strategy is space allowance, but is there another important consideration I am missing?
Soh-Cah-Toa!!! I haven't heard anyone else use that method since my trig teacher taught it to us ages ago. Glad to see it's still being used. Well done on your videos...
haha quite a compliment! Thank you sir! And I will!
gr8 information thanks again
please make a video on radiator calculations. If we only know the engine specs then how we can choose a radiator for it?
Basically you're increasing the volume of the radiator, without making it thicker (the distance the air passes through) yet preserving the frontal area. So the internal surface area of the fins is greater.
wow very nice technique buddy !!!
Kind Regards
Great video.
I agree, good comment.
good video, the only question I have is - when the rad is straight up the fins offer the less resistance, but when its laying over the fins will act as a resistant fan. the side positioning is therefore the best, the the air still has to change direction
Great!
interesting thing brother keep it up mu best wishes are with you
All the typical mechanical engineering courses, I work for NMHG, a Forklift company. :)
Magnifico... you're tremendous!
I struggled with and hated math in school a lot but always loved trig.
The rubber band made it all clear. Thanks!
Air will be moving at the same speed, but more air will be passing through the radiator (in volume) at any given point in time. (The volume of the radiator is larger).
Set me back quite a bit.
There's no better engineer than one who can use sarcasm to humour the audience
Congrats!
Didn't understand a bit of it until you broke the rubber band out ;) thx
Looking at doing something similar and this video came up. If you angle that back though the fins will also be angled back and at some point it seems like air would flow over the fins instead of through them. Unless the fins are designed at 90 degrees to the ground despite the radiator being set back say 45 degrees. You could redirect that air flow to then flow at say 45 degrees matching the fins. But then your creating turbulence and/or adding weight and/or loosing efficiency in part of that radiator
Great video. I really love your channel it's so helpful :D I have a question if you wouldn't mind. Does it make any difference if the radiator is tilted forward or backwards? which is better and why? And if you could provide me with a source where i can read about it I'd be very grateful :D
Could you possibly do any videos regarding minor performance boosts? Like tuning or engine upgrades for street applications?
So are you tilting the base 20cm radiator forwards or backwards? I was just wondering if a similar aspect could be used with a daily driven street car.
So what it seems like; Its like stretching the radiator for more air surface contact but you would tilt it so that its overall height would be the same as if it was the unstretched version. But wondering if the fins angled or not. If not, it would see to put some down force or strain on the fins kinda creating a bunch of tiny spoilers assuming the top is pushed toward the front and the bottom pushed towards the bad of the car.
Yep, it's tough trying to find methods that everyone would be interested in though. Teaching is a difficult thing to do, considering you have to bring a large group of different backgrounds to reach a similar conclusion.
Perhaps the complexity of manufacturing. It all goes in to cost, and is it worth the difference? But a new idea is always welcome, perhaps there is a better way!
It is correct that you aren't affecting the frontal area, however, there are also aerodynamic variables to consider with the design of the radiator that will affect the drag induced by the heat exchanger. The most basic thing to consider is how many fins per square inch the radiator uses in the core. Next is the angle of those fins, and/or if they are louvered. All of these will affect how much drag the radiator induces on the car.
Think of it using the air conditioning principle when the air is compressed it heats up when it decompresses it cools. As you make the air compress into a radiator with fins that block half the air flow then it must compress to allow the air to pass. This process heats the air and slows the air passing threw. Angling the the radiator to increase its surface area also reduces(or reverses) compression in the same airflow needs to pass the "obstruction" especially in the air ramming scenario in F1.
i believe he is teaching us right now
I think if you section the area throughout the air intake's length, each section has a 20X20 area, but on each cross section a certain amount of area of the air goes through the angled radiator. Add up the area cooled by the air for each section and you will find that the total air cooled area is bigger than if the radiator was one 20X20 section
EngineeringExplained, please consider making tutorials on calc, physics, and chemistry!! it would be a great edition to your car videos! to know the fundamentals of cars, one must know chemistry, math, and physics right? ; - )
I believe this concept reduces drag even while maintaining the same frontal surface area. The reason being that the shape has changed to become more aerodynamic. Drag is a function of shape as well as frontal area for a given fluid and velocity. That given, by tilting the radiator back you do loose some efficiency, due to the fact that the pressure delta across the radiator is reduced. Great post!
I didn't take any kind of advanced math in school. So I don't fully understand the math. But I do understand what you're saying about changing the shape and still keeping it the same frontal area. Looking directly into it, it would still look like a 20x20 square. It's not until you look at it from different angles that you actually see the real size of it
Excellent comment !
I did like the rubber band. Its worth noting the drawback to this system is depending how the air travels through the heat exchange the velocity will drop (if the air turns to go perpendicular to the ht x face) or the effective depth will increase (if the air travels straight and flows at an angle to the face). either of these effects will reduce the advantage of the larger face area.
I've seen systems for slowing the air because it can remove more heat if it's not moving too fast (I think it has to do with boundary layers?)
nice vids
You did well. :)
I know others have pointed it out before, but still. 40^2=1600. Adding a note in the video would do it. Other than that, good video as always.
I'm having a hard time trying to explain what I'm saying without a visual aid. Don't think of the air as coming in a square shape. For example let's say this "I" is a radiator, and so is this "\" (The shape). Now when air comes at the flat radiator "I" it looks like this IIIII -> I. (Here, IIIII is the sheets of air about to pass through). But the air that is flowing through the slanted radiator would look more like this \\\\ -> \. Now do you see how you're heating different portions of air?
Angles could certainly change, yes.
When you used the rubber band I thought it was a magic trick...very cool.
Dude. you rock
What about the core/matrix, does that still need to face the airflow or does the matrix/core angle it self away from the airflow?
Random thought: Wouldn't it be better for the bottom of the radiator be placed closer to the front of the car than the top of the radiator? Opposite to what you have drawn on the white board. Wouldn't this help provide more downforce, as oppose to lift? Or does it have to do something with not allowing the hot air to get trapped towards the top of the radiator at idle?
You could of course curve it, but it may not have much benefit, and would increase the cost of making it.
@Engineering Explained, Is tilting premanufactured cooling cores like a radiator or intercooler from aftermarket suppliers - typically seen in a v-mount setup - even worth the effort. DTM and GT cars also use typical cores, and the fins would not be skewed increasing surface area. I can only assume a bespoke built as you described by a F1 manufacturer tossing almost limitless funds would benefit? My interest stems from initially reducing charge piping volume and reviewing orientation for a v-mount setup on my A80, but it all seems to be more trouble than it's worth even for a autocross/track car if the surface area does not change and only the angle...
a radiator is a block consisting a lot of thin pipes, so if we want to maximize the surface area we have to use more pipes, and the air gap will be smaller between(more drag), but from this point of view its the same area if its tilted or not, the only difference is that the bottommost and topmost places are not sending sending directly their heat from top to bottom and i can see there beter effect, but far less, than the described 2ratio
G'day mate, What if the tubing and fins are tilted in the core does that increase the surface area of the heat transfer interface?
Interesting stuff! You learn this in Engineering?
thats so cool
hi..may i know the formula to find the cooling efficiency of the radiator? assume the temperature of water enter is 50 degree and temperature leaving is 40 degree.
The Venom GT's engine would be very unlikely to last 500 laps all out. But it is quick.
Yes, and a true F1 radiator may use curves. But every complexity adds to cost, so this has to be kept in mind.
Okay, so, increasing the angle of the radiator will increase its radiant surface, but at which point this will make it a disadvantage? I mean, if the angle tends to 179°, it would have a very very very long length before it reaches a 20cm height, almost as much as infinite, and if the angle tends to 180° the length would be definetly infinite and thus wouldn't have any active radiant surface. so, which is the exact limit angle? I'm sorry for my really really bad english but i'm italian!
One thing I don't get.. The surface area increases if you tilt it but since the air still comes directly from the front you will get just as much air through the radiator whether its vertical or tilted so what do you gain by tilting it?
Yeah pretty solid arithmetic no?
I know this vid is hella old and I may not get any answers from anyone; however, the fins orientation on the rad. Will it affect cooling? e.g. RX8s have the radiator basically under the car with a system to pull air in; however, the fins are not facing the same direction of flow. Wouldn't that produce more drag and therefore making it less efficient in cooling or is the drag needed to better cool?
Hey just wondering are you still going to do videos that aren't about f1? I would love to see a video about antilag (ALS).
WHAT!? Haha good call, thank you. I've graduated so I lose my math abilities quickly.
Dude I'm an engineer don't question me. :)
Tell about using Straight water use in cooling system
that was cool
Can we put the radiator along the path of aerodynamic? Such as a radiator spoiler since we are talking about geometry?
how about productivity? Angle means more scrap at the same time. also how much space do you think you have in a car for radiator? I dont even want to mention about efficiency.
Thats awesome, so they could improve road car cooling buy using angled radiators, or maintain the same cooling by using smaller radiators in this way thereby saving money.
Presumably the fins of the radiator need to be angled in the same orientation in order to maximise the effect?
Well, a flat radiator is pretty efficient, and there's a lot more space in a road car for it.
The rubber band part 👏
@6:23 40^2= 1600 :P
I thought I was only one who noticed that :D
Great video, but I have a general question about F1. Isn't the whole point to have the least amount of drag possible on the car to make it have a faster top speed and acceleration? Is there ways they make the radiator have less drag, but still cool the car effectively?
I understand what you said about the geometry, but doesn't the air flow rate remain constant and each bit of air goes through the same distance inside the radiator? To put it another way, doesn't the internal surface area(the surface area of fins inside the radiator) remain constant? Since the fins must be parallel to the direction of travel.
This could be a cool optimization for calc that I wouldn't mind doing for homework:P
Hey i like it man but i want to know can you make it work on a road car to cool the engine more of i end up doing a turbo anti lag system can you help me
What happens to the space infront of the part of the radiator that was tilted back? Also doesn't it take more space to tilt it back?
too funny; great video regardless. the radiators that have a depth to it have it measured out so it's not too thick but not too thin.
Minor maths error on the final bit of the video: 40x40=1600 and not 800. Otherwise great, well explained, thank you!
i was wondering the same thing. The area*speed of the air that is going inside de carburator is always the same.. so the amount of heat it can absorb is limited to this number. i`m wrong?
I loved your videos.
PD: Sorry for the english.. not my first language
but does it affect airflow characteristics?
if you dont mind me asking, what courses did you take in college and if you have a job what is it?