Not since the days of square taper bottom brackets. Back in the day of Shimano 600 (6400) cranks, the standard sealed bearing bottom bracket for that crank was 115mm. I did some measuring and determined that I could fit their 107mm sealed bearing bottom bracket. I used it for years, until Shimano came out with their Octalink type bottom brackets, that were only offered in double and triple sizes. I never messed around with pedals.
If you ride a dual platform pedal you can compare your foot position between flat-side and clip-side while riding. That's probably a good indication of your preferred natural position vs what is forced by your clipless system.
Hey! Good call. I love dual platform pedals. I have them on all of my bikes except my snow bike. They weigh more, but comfort is key to riding further and faster.
I noticed that when I put flat pedals on my bikes, I needed to lower my saddle by a lot to feel comfortable with them. Once I got 18mm pedal axle extenders, I realized that clipless pedals and maybe the too narrow q-factor actually made put the saddle higher than I should. Now I pedal more heel-down as the flat pedals informed me and more of my leg muscles are working - my ankles articulate far easier and more naturally. I wish I discovered this fit 15 years earlier!
Fresh off a bike fit (last week) and one of the adjustments was to widen my stance by 4mm total. This seemingly small change had a great effect on comfort and rippled throughout several measurements bringing my feet more in line where they should be. If your bike fitter isn't looking at that, consider finding one who does. HUGE difference for me.
Thank you for this! I've been trying to get my wife's bike to fit her better and reduce the knee pain she's been experiencing, even on shorter 30-45 minute rides. I couldn't think of anything else to try and correct but then your video came along. I realized I'd completely forgotten about the Q-factor. I ordered some pedal extenders and snuck them on her bike for a blind test. It was FTP test day on Zwift and she remarked how this was the first test she didn't have knee pain and also had an 8% improvement in watts!
In terms of making small changes, sometimes big changes can help you understand your issues more easily. For example, if you change your seat height so that it's too short, you can feel what too short feels like. If you then change it to be too high, you can feel what that feels like. You know that the proper height is somewhere in between. At that point you can start moving slowly in one direction until you just feels like it's about right. Then move all the way to the other extreme and move the other direction slowly until it just feels like it's about right. The two "just about right" points will still probably have some space between them. You can then move the saddle height smack dab in the middle of that knowing that you are in a "goldilocks" position with a little bit of room to spare on either side.
Q factor made a huge difference, when I switched from the old 68mm road and track BB bike to a FATBIKE Surly Moonlander which is 100mm. It took me a season to get used to the difference. As I am into my 7th decade of riding I usually stay with just the slow moving stable fatbike, after 6 decades of having used a 68mm BB. Yes I use a Brooks B17 or Brooks Pro saddle or a plastic Unicanitor saddle for the track/stationary riding. Bikepacking on varying terrain for hours with changing terrain is always nice. Cranks that are straight vs curved, pedal width and feet width, all make a difference in Q-factor as well.
I remember when campagnolo first launched their very narrow bottom bracket. Wonderful to get the best fit. I once even crushed the chainstay of a steel bike to allow me to run a narrower q factor! Bike fit for me has always been a thing I have obsessed over
I did a lot with Q a few years back. I was fortunate to have a friend who is a chiro for many profis in The Netherlands. I moved cleats and picked up some pedal extension and relieved some pain and increased the joy of riding.
Big thanks Connorxand GCN, great topic I've never considered. But at 60 years old, 6'2" tall and with chronic lower back and hip pain riding, I'm going to try longer pedals for sure. Hoping for good results so I can ride pain free!!
Narrower for the win for me! Less flex in pedal spindle, cranks and frame. It's also slightly more aero. If we were pushing both feet at the same time a wider stance might produce more power, but we're not. You'll also have more side to side movement when pedaling if it's too wide, like Cameron Mason!
Yes did a bike fit recently. Changed stem and saddle set up. Went for new longer length pedals. What a difference. Much better comfort. Better alingment and I feel like I can ride smoother and stronger because of it.
Q- factor makes a huge difference, I’ve been playing around with it on my road and mountain bike. Recently put pedal extenders 16 mm shortest I could find on my mountain bike and went for a ride . What a horrible experience way to wide and just couldn’t pedal without everything hurting. Went back to my van took extenders off and everything was good again.I tried then on road bike on trainer and was not as bad but not great either. I use spd on road and was using crank brothers pedals and my shoes would barely scrape crank arms. Went back to my shimano spd which have longer spindles and feels much better. All I can say now is setup is so important. You definitely need to experiment if you don’t get a proper bike fit.
Great video Conor.. I've been riding Speedplay zero's with the 65mm spindles for the last fifteen years, and they have been a total game changer for me in terms on comfort and hip- knee- ankle and power on the bike. I used to suffer from all manner of knee pains and saddle sores and quit cycling out of sheer pain and frustration many times, until I read in Cycling weekly that you could purchase the aforementioned longer spindles for Speedplay, it wasn't an easy task and required weeks of online searching. I'm still riding my carefully hoarded original made in USA Speedplay Zero's .. Will eventually buy a fep pairs of Wahoo Speedplay's now the earlier quality control issues have been resolved...
Ride flats, not clipless and you will position your feet where they want to be :-). And, if you want to get your feet closer together use old square tapered or octalink bottom brackets to keep the Q-factor low.
As a long legged 6ft 3in I put a Deore crankset on a road frame and moved my SPD cleats inboard which was a huge improvement but had to drop my seat height slightly.
I am quite bandy legged, riding with my feet fixed in normal position would give me terrible ITBS. I tried all sorts of things over the years but the only thing that made any real difference is dramatically widening my Q-factor. This allowed me to ride toe out / heal in, without the crank rub. I use JTEK Kneesaver extenders (30mm). Yes they are huge, and look really silly but they have significantly increased my on bike comfort. I will still get knee and hip pain on harder rides, but on easier rides it's not usually a problem. It's an inexpensive thing to try out if you are having similar issues.
The advice at the end of the video was the best way to summarize this presentation. Always micro-adjust. NEVER make big jumps. Sometimes the best adjustment is going back a mm or two, then going forward one mm. I figured this out years ago and whenever I ignore my own experience I pay the price of not being happy with a poorly thought-out adjustment. This does not apply to ugly women when you have your beer goggles on.
Simple answer is to put on a pair of flats every six months and go for a ride. After 30 mins or so your feet will find the most natural position. Compare this to your normal position and make an adjustment if there's a notable difference. Ride shoes with a similar sole thickness. One thing I'd like to see tested is effect of stance width on cornering, I suspect that wider may help. Crank length can also have an effect.. GCN have several presenters who are top notch crit riders, they should be able to assess this.
As a woman with a wide pelvis and a hip issue this is always an issue for me. I think finding wider spindles would be good ( im not a road /speed rider)
I use flat pedals on MTB and gravel bikes. With GRX, I use pedal extenders, probably 20mm. Both bikes, my feet still want to naturally hang over the edges of the pedals, missing the inner column of pins. If I put my feet properly on the pedals to get most grip, they soon migrate outwards. On road, I use the longest speedplays - bike fitter seemed happy but it does feel a bit narrow! I dont think I'm particularly duck footed or wide waisted. Kind of average 6ft bloke. It has always amazed me how everyone is running the same narrow stance width, and I've seen so many people who ride with their knees sticking out. Stick some flat pedals on and see what is natural for you.
Simple cure. Flat pedals. Place your foot in the best orientation for climbs, descents, curves, uneven surfaces. Comes at a cost of power transmission, sure. Not an issue unless you’re pushing (and pulling) big watts.
Despite lots of experimenting early in my cycling life, I could never ride more than 15 miles without severe foot pain with flats but I've done a few 200 milers without issue and hundreds of 100mile rides without any foot pain using clipless pedals
This is a disruptive hidden concept, it is really common sense becauise bikes are standar not customized. I have change my bike Q factor configuration and really apreciatted your video...small changes are making big difference in my pedalling confort and power transmission efficency to my bike- thanks a lot
This was picked up as part of a bike fit I had ages ago, my cleats were adjusted to the inside of my shoes to widen my stance, this straightens my knees through the pedal stroke and is MUCH more comfortable.
I think this is pretty good, but one of the things I've found to be very affordable and doesn't have the customer replace their pedal system with a new one are cleat adapters. They add some overall height to the shoe, but they also allow for a lot of lateral movement along with increased fore/aft adjustment. Companies like FORM make them and a lot of bike fitters such as myself carry them. I just wish I could get more of them. They're in high demand at the moment.
I came to this about a year ago when I was now coming back from a broken knee. Was riding MTB flats which let me move my foot position out, then once things were good enough and I wanted to go back to clipless, the standard Q-Factor felt horribly narrow and put pressure on my hips. Bought a set of 20mm extenders and that put my SPDs to just a bit wider than where my feet were on the wider flats. As said, if you've got wider bars for bigger riders, you should also have wider Q-Factor for wider hips.
Narrow Q may for for some people. I often ride flats. My feet naturally trend towards the outer 1/3 of the pedal. I'm sure it hurts aero, but my old knees don't hurt. At the end of a long ride or race my feet aren't numb, my knees aren't aching. My personal observation is it the width should be something near what it looks like when you walk. The crusty Roadies will choke on their recovery drink thinking that they should put wider cranks or longer pedals on their stylish looking arrow carbon road bike, but some of us are just doing what we need to do to make sure we're not in agony while we're pushing the pedals.
I’ve noticed that when I ride my road bike, I get chafing on both sides. Not a problem on the mountain bike. Now I know why. Thanks GCN. Now I can quit trying different saddles and just change pedal spacing instead.
Just bought the 15mm SQlabs pedals, your video came out at the right time. Always wondered why I had chainstay and crank rub when using MTB pedals on my road bike. Explains a lot.
I recommend you get a set of cheap flat pedals and do some riding in the places you usually go. Do some hard VO2 efforts, some sweetspot, standing climbing. Find where your feet feel comfortable. Then replicate that position with cleats.
Wow! Amazingly helpful and insightful video Conor and GCN! We'll have to call Conor Science Si soon! Thanks for the deep dive into such a sadly overlooked topic!!! As a retired RMT, having worked in a Sports Injury Clinic, I can attest to the number of people (particularly women triathletes) who have suffered unnecessarily due to the Q factor problem. As Phil said it usually shows in ITB syndrome and knee pain, especially with Ultra Endurance riders. The pedal shaft/spacer hacks are a great work around for some. So too are something you didn't mention: switching to flats. This allows people who have discordant hemi pelvises (a surprisingly large part of the population have one half pelvis larger than the other) to move one foot in more for the narrower pelvis half and the other out more for the wider pelvis half. Flats also help those with rotated tibia (lower leg bone below the knee). When standing with knee caps aligned forward these people will have one "duck foot" toed out due not to muscle stance, but BONE. You can't fight bone! These people need to have ability to toe out on one side and flats accomodate this, so that their knees can stay aligned/stress free. Bike makers who target bikes designed for women/wider hipped/pelvis people, should be at least moving to a wider Q factor according to averages and then marketing a bike that "just feels right" for women. It would do a lot towards inclusion in the sport. Stellar content and please more of this type of thoughtful video!!! Well done!
I’ve run 59cm spindles +1mm washers for many years. When I switched to the wahoo brand, they whack you $50 extra dollars just for the extra 6mm in width. I use some of the additional width to keep the cleats in a reasonable position on shoe, instead of pushing them in to their most extreme position. I also recommend the stainless steel cleat panels to protect the cleat baseplates. Also, if you’re a shorter under 5ft7in, definitely consider running shorter cranks. I’ve gone to 165mm and it’s the best change I’ve made.
I added two 1mm washers to each side of my cranks and found it made a massive difference for me in both comfort on the bike and delivery of power. I also noticed that i wasn't as fatigued at the end of a ride as i had been without widening my stance.
Wider pedals also put more twisting motion into your Bottom Bracket bearings outer cups where the spindle passes through, this will lead to oval cups which means these cups will wear down and your spindle will start to wobble leading to creaks. This does not happen if the spindle is in direct contact with press fit bearings as the spindle has no plastic cup to crush. Be aware of this as when these plastic inner cups lose their original thickness now the spindle has 1-1.2mm of space of wobbling around.
Every watt from a pedal stroke is already imparting a twisting moment on your cranks. Bottom brackets are already meant to resist force in all directions as the crank loads them in 360 degrees. A crank pointed straight down with your weight on it is imparting the same force that the extra moment created by a longer pedal axle will create when your cranks are at 90 degrees. And I would wager that it applies that force at much higher magnitude, as the cranks are a much longer lever than pedals are. In short, there will be a tiny bit of extra loading on your bottom bracket in an axis where it is designed to be loaded, and it will be far less loading than the force of the pressure against the cranks provides. The only force that is increased in any real magnitude is an additional torque (twisting force) on the crank arms themselves, and an increase in the load on the threads in the cranks (which is one of the reasons why the 16-20mm extenders are frowned upon) But, Ganna rides Assioma Duo Shi's (or he did for his hour record anyway) which have a spindle length 9 or 10mm longer than a standard shimano pedal, and if he isn't twisting his crank arms pushing 500w for 30 minutes, or surely well over 1500w in some of his sprints, then there is nothing to be concerned about. Anyway, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I would really hate for people not to make this change if it helped their physiology or reduced pain because they were worried it would be hard on their bottom bracket when the physics for that don't add up. I ride wide spindles for knee reasons, and last year I couldn't stick to 400km a month without injury, this year with wider spindles I am more than double that.
Trying to decide here as it affects a power meter decision. For road pedals, there's the question of crank or pedal based power metering, and if pedal, you have the question of Garmin (adjustable from 53 to 55mm whether Look Keo or Shimano) or Favero (54mm for Look Keo, a whopping 65mm for Shimano).
Femoral Head lateral distance is called Medial Offset when having a false hip installed. It is the distance across the centres of the hip ball joints. Get an X-Ray. My Femoral Head lateral distance is 270mm. That is the distance I set my 3rd Metatarsal distance at their base.
Yes, by coincidence - I wanted to put a real big chainring on my bike (still equipped with Campagnolo Record Carbon square taper cranks), but it was only available for Shimanos 130mm bcd, so I put off the Campagnolo cranks and put on a pair of Shmanos FC-7410 onto the Record bb, as the angle of the ISO square taper is the same like the low profile JIS norm, the ISO spindle is just a little bit thinner, so I just put a little bit wax instead of greaseon the spindle to prevent the cranks rattling loose. Doing so, I found that on the highest gear (big ring and smallest spocket) there was only 1mm space between the chain and the crank when rotating beside the chain, so I put in a small spacer between the right bottom bracket shell and the frame's bottom bracket housing. As the cranks nearly get completely on the bb's spindle, I suppose the q factor is about 6mm less than the q factor of the original setup FC 7410/BB 7403. As I finally got a Gebhardt chainring for 135mm with the required teeth number, I am going to put on the Campag cranks again, and I will see whether I will notice a difference.
Great new video there Big Man!! A part of bike fit l honestly never thought about before. I have all the other points of possible discomfort worked out on my bike, but still have some problems. This new information, as brought to us By You, may be the answer to my long persistent problems. Thank You SO much for the Insight!!😎
Such useful information I'd never really heard of Q factor before this but thank you for opening my eyes to it. This could really help reduce knee issues and comfort on the bike. Great video...
Way back in the 80's/90's Grant Peterson when working for Brigdestone bicycles in the U.S. was the first one who started dealing with Q factor, so to say he was way ahead of the game concerning Q factor, to get his take on this subject he can now can be reached at Rivendell bicycles.
My hips are retroverted so my range of motion through 90 degrees is about 70 % externally and 20% internally, I walk duck foot and was getting loads of hip pain trying to pedal in a straight up and down motion. Once I went to a larger q-factor it allowed me to increase the angle on my cleats to around 15% when meant my q angle was far more fluid and I can push all the way through the pedal stroke now. Much more comfortable, larger power increase, much less fatigue.
I think it will be difficult to do studies on this topic, since there is so much biomechanics going on here. What a comfortable measurement for a Q-Factor will be, differs from rider to rider. It is not only about power-downput, but also about steering and balance, saddle- and leg / cleat positioning, muscular leg imbalances, width of your pelvis (distance between the hip joint-balls), old injuries, further there is positions, axes and angles of joints (X/O-legs), crank length, saddle angle/saddle grip, comfortable but snug fit of your foot in your shoe.... I call it a chain of joints: down from hipjoint, over knee-joint, ankle joint, and joints in the feet. I think one will end up best with a natural position when letting hang ones legs down loosely and can then go from there for further bike fitting.
One thing you really didn't cover is we all have a natural width. This is our strongest skeletal structure. Deviation from this width can cause joint and muscle strains. Going wider is not the Holy grail. It may work for you it may not. I would suggest that one stay within their natural width as best as possible and make sure your cleats are aligned properly
Back when I was riding a road frame designed for 2x5 with original Dura-Ace cranks, I had Q-factor down around 120mm. I try to keep mine as small as possible. These days I settle for 145mm or so. I don't like a Q over 150mm, which limits my interest in riding bikes with big tires.
Atac pedals and some others have a type of float that lets you vary your stance width just by moving your feet around or clipping in at the inside or outside edge of the pedal.
First noticed the difference when I borrowed a set of Assioma power meter pedals from a friend. The extra width felt freer and initially comfortable. When I returned them, normal width pedals felt strange and tight again, maybe as I undid some adaptation. I use 16mm extenders on each side now, and have tried to tweak my cleat width - I feel I'm pedalling more perpendicular, generally feel comfortable, but I think I've had knee pain crop up in either width. My current bike has a wider top tube, so the extenders also help keep my knees clear.
I find that crank arm length has a bigger impact on fit and power output. As we age, we become less flexible and we cannot provide peak power if we ask our top leg (the one at the top of the stroke) to provide power immediately when beginning the downstroke. When my fitter shortened the crank arm length, my power output went way up. I didn't ignore Q factor - I have longer Speedplay spindles. The combination of these two is a great example of the benefits of a professional bike fit.
It should be pointed out that you need to do this with the pedals. The bottom bracket spindle isn't really adjustable beyond setting the chain line correctly. Once that is optimized those dimensions are pretty much set.
Would like to know how to measure Q factor on a bike. I guess mark a line on some masking tape on the middle of the seat tube or down tube as a measurement point. After buying an eCargo bike, I had some hip issues. Switched to a pedal with toe clips (SPD on the other side which I haven’t tried yet). It’s a bit better but want to see if the Q is different than my road bike.
I would like to see a study looking at stance & knee damage/injury. I suspect riding with a narrow stance is hard on your knees. I mean nobody squats with their feet close together!
Had to change my Q-factor due to wanting some Favero Assioma duo shi's. Giving me 10mm extra Q-factor per pedal. Did some digging into this before purchase, and just changing bikes alone ie from MTB to road to hybrid, all have varying stance widths. My findings said that most won't notice a huge difference, but some may benefit from going larger. Seen some duo shi's being sold second hand due to flaring up a users knee injury. So some can be more sensitive than others. Myself, only had them a week and done one crit race. Can't say I noticed a difference at all!
I added a pedal washer on each side as a result of my bike fit (thanks Fraser Bike, Michigan)re knee arthritis issues, it was like someone turned the lights on
Q factor is usually wider in MTB, and I've never noticed anything switching between road and MTB. But maybe for someone really on the large or small side, it could make a noticeable difference
I have pedal extenders with great results. Except it doesn't take much lean angle to be scraping pedals on the ground while cornering ! On its on my gravel bike which I think has a lower BB height than a road bike.
Making Q wider is easy. Narrower? My heels already brush my crankarms. We're stuck with the widths that the manufacturers make. Cranks have to work in conjunction with front derailleurs and frame manufacturer's chainlines. Why not list every commonly available crank (brand and model), chainline and q-factor? Then we can pick the narrowest (if that's one's goal).
Thanks for doing this vid. Back in the 80s and 90s racing this wasn't something that was talked about in my circles and I frequently had chafing, hip and knee issues, some of it due to fixed clipless pedals but some due to Q factor, which I started to look at when I got back into cycling in the last 15 years. MTB q factor seems to be slightly wider anyhow but road/gravel bike Q factor seems noticeably narrower, so I notice definite issues when changing bikes.
Very interesting and well researched video. Thanks Conor. I wonder why there are no asymmetrical/offset cleats to change your stance. Would be the cheapest option and a good way to experiment.
Just recently, after not being able to comfortably being able to ride the bike more than 1.5 hours, due to chafing, or using a narrow saddle that reduced this pressure issues, I decided to experiment with 16mm titanium extender's. In combination with also changing my crank length to 160mm, I've transformed the bike, and feel I could now ride for hours. I can use the saddle I want to use and chafing is minimized, although it's not perfect, but I'm not sure how much more it could be improved for myself. I've never had a bike fit, as where I live, nothing is near by, but have set the bike up, that seems to be a good compromise for my short legs and longer body, for which a bike is either too tall, but right length or the right height and too short. I had a 130mm stem on the bike that was aero, but as there was too much weight on the front of the bike, it was unbalanced. I now run 105mm stem, and the saddle as far back as I can get it, but the balance is good, but I loose some aero. It's just great to be able to be able to ride, and feel with that ability to now train properly, I should be ready for an event I would like to do next year, involving 235km's of ride with 4000m's of climbing.
Trying to ride with the legs or knees rather closer to the frame and maybe our hips are wider or maybe it’s not natural for us us to ride that way we screw up our knees. at least for me it was my right knee. They gave me lots of trouble because of a narrow Q factor and using the standard size SPD pedals when I started to road bike seriously in 2011 now you have the availability of getting Shimano SPD pedals with a wider axle or spindle that is and that makes a difference that’s what I use and I have a gravel bike and I have a mountain bike and I have a fixed gear bike too with the mountain bike SPD pedals that naturally are wider and I don’t have any knee issues with any of those bikes. I’m actually able to transfer power, but it was the narrow factors of road bikes that really didn’t sit well with my body so bring on and keep the wider axles in the pedals. They work some wonders. !!!
Had to bite the bullet. On all my mtb (oops 5 lol) I feel comfortable but on both road bikes my left hip drops. It’s been cleat shimmed, offset, but I’ve just bit the bullet and ordered new longer spindle pedals. I’m duck footed and a narrow q really twists my hips and sore knees laterally. I only ride the road for fitness on the mtb so I’m happy to accept the un-aero if it makes me more comfortable.
speed play pedals allow for lateral or medial adjustment fairly easily but keo cleats do not as that front screw allows for fore and aft movement only. Am I missing something though? I ride with Favro assioma power pedals.
I mostly use flat pedals, and I've noticed that I tend to place my feet out toward the outer edge of the pedals. This and some other fit issues with clipless, convince me I need a wider stance width than bikes typically give me.
I have a very “duck footed” (heal in, toes out) pedaling stance so use pedal extenders to keep my heals from hitting the crank arms. I use 2.5 to 4 cm long pedal extenders so that the Q-Factor is exactly the same on my mnt, gravel, and road bikes. I couldn’t ride a bike at all without these pedal extenders.
Connor, don’t you think your seat is in a little too forward of a position? If that’s where you need to sit, maybe you’re on too big of a frame or need one with a shorter top tube. It also doesn’t look very cool so far forward on the seat tube.
On my MTB with flat pedals, I noticed that I tend to not use the spikes on the inside when standing. Recently, I got a bike fit on my road bike, and my fitter put my cleats almost all the way in, which may be due to me simply coming from MTB and being used to wider BBs. I am 180cm, mostly legs.
Got any comments or tips on knee height when peddling? On the last two bikes I bought my knees run up so that they are parallel to my hips. That is my thighs are flat from the hip to the knee at the top of the arc of my peddling. Yet the measures tell me that my saddle height is correct and any higher would have me rocking in the saddle. I can't help feeling that the way things are though, I am working too hard on climbs in particular. I notice that pretty much everyone else from professional to casual riders have a slant in their thigh from hip down to knee at the top arc of their peddle stroke.
if you use flat pedals does Q factor automatically adjust to suit hip knee alignment? Maybe it's only an issue with clipless fixing your feet in place. Maybe another vote in favor of flats with good cycling shoes for power transfer and comfort.
Humans have O and X legs, different width hips and so the Q factor must vary as well. Graeme Obree with his average height and willpower for extreme innovation riding a very narrow Q shouldn't surprise anyone. Good thing the UCI didn't look at his Q back then, otherwise they might have introduced a minimum ;-)
I see a few caveats, too narrow and your thighs can rub against the saddle, your foot may rotate at an angle where you increase the pressure on the outside of your foot.
I run Garmin Rally XC200 power pedals (SPD). The Garmin Connect report is listing Platform Center Offest (PCO) as 10mm to the outside of each pedal's centerline. Does this mean I should move my cleats out towards my little toe? There isn't 10mm of adjustment. Or do I need longer spindles to move the pedals away from the bottom bracket and under my power point? I keep my pedal clips set to the minimum adjustment.
Have you changed your bikes Q factor? 🚲
No I haven't got a bike
SQLab SPD pedals +8mm, made a huge positive difference.
@@campyc40 What pedals were you using before you switched? I'm having issues with crank rub on my Shimano EH500 pedals.
a good bike-fitter checks the Q-factor - 99% don't
Not since the days of square taper bottom brackets. Back in the day of Shimano 600 (6400) cranks, the standard sealed bearing bottom bracket for that crank was 115mm. I did some measuring and determined that I could fit their 107mm sealed bearing bottom bracket. I used it for years, until Shimano came out with their Octalink type bottom brackets, that were only offered in double and triple sizes.
I never messed around with pedals.
i've accepted my bike fit is trash
Which stage of denial is acceptance? Would you ever get a bike fit?
I hear ya, two bike fits, two significantly different sets of fit metrics.
Try shorter cranks, they're brilliant
This is the way
@@gcnI would love to. There is no level of expertise in my area. I may as well flush $350 down the toilet.
If you ride a dual platform pedal you can compare your foot position between flat-side and clip-side while riding. That's probably a good indication of your preferred natural position vs what is forced by your clipless system.
Hey! Good call. I love dual platform pedals. I have them on all of my bikes except my snow bike. They weigh more, but comfort is key to riding further and faster.
My garmin vector show (using clip-pedals) that platform offset is +10mm to the outside - both feed. What does this indicate?
#askgcn
I noticed that when I put flat pedals on my bikes, I needed to lower my saddle by a lot to feel comfortable with them. Once I got 18mm pedal axle extenders, I realized that clipless pedals and maybe the too narrow q-factor actually made put the saddle higher than I should. Now I pedal more heel-down as the flat pedals informed me and more of my leg muscles are working - my ankles articulate far easier and more naturally. I wish I discovered this fit 15 years earlier!
Fresh off a bike fit (last week) and one of the adjustments was to widen my stance by 4mm total. This seemingly small change had a great effect on comfort and rippled throughout several measurements bringing my feet more in line where they should be. If your bike fitter isn't looking at that, consider finding one who does. HUGE difference for me.
Thank you for this! I've been trying to get my wife's bike to fit her better and reduce the knee pain she's been experiencing, even on shorter 30-45 minute rides. I couldn't think of anything else to try and correct but then your video came along. I realized I'd completely forgotten about the Q-factor. I ordered some pedal extenders and snuck them on her bike for a blind test. It was FTP test day on Zwift and she remarked how this was the first test she didn't have knee pain and also had an 8% improvement in watts!
Have you tried a chiropractor therapy???
@@syedmuhammaddanielhassnain5990chiropractor is for idiots
Yes! Just this winter I switched to longer spindles (+4mm each pedal) in an effort to improve hip and knee fatigue. Amazing improvement.
In terms of making small changes, sometimes big changes can help you understand your issues more easily. For example, if you change your seat height so that it's too short, you can feel what too short feels like. If you then change it to be too high, you can feel what that feels like. You know that the proper height is somewhere in between. At that point you can start moving slowly in one direction until you just feels like it's about right. Then move all the way to the other extreme and move the other direction slowly until it just feels like it's about right. The two "just about right" points will still probably have some space between them. You can then move the saddle height smack dab in the middle of that knowing that you are in a "goldilocks" position with a little bit of room to spare on either side.
Q factor made a huge difference, when I switched from the old 68mm road and track BB bike to a FATBIKE Surly Moonlander which is 100mm. It took me a season to get used to the difference. As I am into my 7th decade of riding I usually stay with just the slow moving stable fatbike, after 6 decades of having used a 68mm BB. Yes I use a Brooks B17 or Brooks Pro saddle or a plastic Unicanitor saddle for the track/stationary riding. Bikepacking on varying terrain for hours with changing terrain is always nice. Cranks that are straight vs curved, pedal width and feet width, all make a difference in Q-factor as well.
I remember when campagnolo first launched their very narrow bottom bracket. Wonderful to get the best fit. I once even crushed the chainstay of a steel bike to allow me to run a narrower q factor! Bike fit for me has always been a thing I have obsessed over
The good old days Jon 👌
I did a lot with Q a few years back. I was fortunate to have a friend who is a chiro for many profis in The Netherlands. I moved cleats and picked up some pedal extension and relieved some pain and increased the joy of riding.
Big thanks Connorxand GCN, great topic I've never considered. But at 60 years old, 6'2" tall and with chronic lower back and hip pain riding, I'm going to try longer pedals for sure. Hoping for good results so I can ride pain free!!
Narrower for the win for me! Less flex in pedal spindle, cranks and frame. It's also slightly more aero. If we were pushing both feet at the same time a wider stance might produce more power, but we're not. You'll also have more side to side movement when pedaling if it's too wide, like Cameron Mason!
Oooo interesting points! Have you played around with Q factor yourself?
Yes did a bike fit recently. Changed stem and saddle set up. Went for new longer length pedals. What a difference. Much better comfort. Better alingment and I feel like I can ride smoother and stronger because of it.
Your bank balance?🙈
Q- factor makes a huge difference, I’ve been playing around with it on my road and mountain bike. Recently put pedal extenders 16 mm shortest I could find on my mountain bike and went for a ride . What a horrible experience way to wide and just couldn’t pedal without everything hurting. Went back to my van took extenders off and everything was good again.I tried then on road bike on trainer and was not as bad but not great either. I use spd on road and was using crank brothers pedals and my shoes would barely scrape crank arms. Went back to my shimano spd which have longer spindles and feels much better. All I can say now is setup is so important. You definitely need to experiment if you don’t get a proper bike fit.
Great video Conor.. I've been riding Speedplay zero's with the 65mm spindles for the last fifteen years, and they have been a total game changer for me in terms on comfort and hip- knee- ankle and power on the bike. I used to suffer from all manner of knee pains and saddle sores and quit cycling out of sheer pain and frustration many times, until I read in Cycling weekly that you could purchase the aforementioned longer spindles for Speedplay, it wasn't an easy task and required weeks of online searching. I'm still riding my carefully hoarded original made in USA Speedplay Zero's .. Will eventually buy a fep pairs of Wahoo Speedplay's now the earlier quality control issues have been resolved...
I have been using a longer spindle on one side for several years. My knee problems improved.
Ride flats, not clipless and you will position your feet where they want to be :-). And, if you want to get your feet closer together use old square tapered or octalink bottom brackets to keep the Q-factor low.
As a long legged 6ft 3in I put a Deore crankset on a road frame and moved my SPD cleats inboard which was a huge improvement but had to drop my seat height slightly.
I am quite bandy legged, riding with my feet fixed in normal position would give me terrible ITBS. I tried all sorts of things over the years but the only thing that made any real difference is dramatically widening my Q-factor. This allowed me to ride toe out / heal in, without the crank rub. I use JTEK Kneesaver extenders (30mm). Yes they are huge, and look really silly but they have significantly increased my on bike comfort. I will still get knee and hip pain on harder rides, but on easier rides it's not usually a problem. It's an inexpensive thing to try out if you are having similar issues.
The advice at the end of the video was the best way to summarize this presentation. Always micro-adjust. NEVER make big jumps. Sometimes the best adjustment is going back a mm or two, then going forward one mm. I figured this out years ago and whenever I ignore my own experience I pay the price of not being happy with a poorly thought-out adjustment.
This does not apply to ugly women when you have your beer goggles on.
Simple answer is to put on a pair of flats every six months and go for a ride. After 30 mins or so your feet will find the most natural position. Compare this to your normal position and make an adjustment if there's a notable difference. Ride shoes with a similar sole thickness. One thing I'd like to see tested is effect of stance width on cornering, I suspect that wider may help. Crank length can also have an effect.. GCN have several presenters who are top notch crit riders, they should be able to assess this.
As a woman with a wide pelvis and a hip issue this is always an issue for me. I think finding wider spindles would be good ( im not a road /speed rider)
I use flat pedals on MTB and gravel bikes. With GRX, I use pedal extenders, probably 20mm. Both bikes, my feet still want to naturally hang over the edges of the pedals, missing the inner column of pins. If I put my feet properly on the pedals to get most grip, they soon migrate outwards. On road, I use the longest speedplays - bike fitter seemed happy but it does feel a bit narrow! I dont think I'm particularly duck footed or wide waisted. Kind of average 6ft bloke. It has always amazed me how everyone is running the same narrow stance width, and I've seen so many people who ride with their knees sticking out. Stick some flat pedals on and see what is natural for you.
Simple cure. Flat pedals. Place your foot in the best orientation for climbs, descents, curves, uneven surfaces. Comes at a cost of power transmission, sure. Not an issue unless you’re pushing (and pulling) big watts.
No effect on efficiency unless sprinting or very short efforts
@@carlosflanders518stop spreading misinformation, everyone knows that clipless pedals add an instant +50W to FTP.
Despite lots of experimenting early in my cycling life, I could never ride more than 15 miles without severe foot pain with flats but I've done a few 200 milers without issue and hundreds of 100mile rides without any foot pain using clipless pedals
idk about road but i used to stand on the outside edge of my mtb pedals and they broke :(
I added Risk 16mm pedal spacers and have eliminated all of my outer knee pain I struggled with for a long time!!
This is a disruptive hidden concept, it is really common sense becauise bikes are standar not customized. I have change my bike Q factor configuration and really apreciatted your video...small changes are making big difference in my pedalling confort and power transmission efficency to my bike- thanks a lot
This was picked up as part of a bike fit I had ages ago, my cleats were adjusted to the inside of my shoes to widen my stance, this straightens my knees through the pedal stroke and is MUCH more comfortable.
I think this is pretty good, but one of the things I've found to be very affordable and doesn't have the customer replace their pedal system with a new one are cleat adapters. They add some overall height to the shoe, but they also allow for a lot of lateral movement along with increased fore/aft adjustment. Companies like FORM make them and a lot of bike fitters such as myself carry them. I just wish I could get more of them. They're in high demand at the moment.
I came to this about a year ago when I was now coming back from a broken knee. Was riding MTB flats which let me move my foot position out, then once things were good enough and I wanted to go back to clipless, the standard Q-Factor felt horribly narrow and put pressure on my hips. Bought a set of 20mm extenders and that put my SPDs to just a bit wider than where my feet were on the wider flats. As said, if you've got wider bars for bigger riders, you should also have wider Q-Factor for wider hips.
Narrow Q may for for some people. I often ride flats. My feet naturally trend towards the outer 1/3 of the pedal. I'm sure it hurts aero, but my old knees don't hurt. At the end of a long ride or race my feet aren't numb, my knees aren't aching. My personal observation is it the width should be something near what it looks like when you walk. The crusty Roadies will choke on their recovery drink thinking that they should put wider cranks or longer pedals on their stylish looking arrow carbon road bike, but some of us are just doing what we need to do to make sure we're not in agony while we're pushing the pedals.
I’ve noticed that when I ride my road bike, I get chafing on both sides. Not a problem on the mountain bike. Now I know why. Thanks GCN. Now I can quit trying different saddles and just change pedal spacing instead.
Just bought the 15mm SQlabs pedals, your video came out at the right time. Always wondered why I had chainstay and crank rub when using MTB pedals on my road bike. Explains a lot.
I recommend you get a set of cheap flat pedals and do some riding in the places you usually go. Do some hard VO2 efforts, some sweetspot, standing climbing. Find where your feet feel comfortable. Then replicate that position with cleats.
Wow! Amazingly helpful and insightful video Conor and GCN! We'll have to call Conor Science Si soon! Thanks for the deep dive into such a sadly overlooked topic!!! As a retired RMT, having worked in a Sports Injury Clinic, I can attest to the number of people (particularly women triathletes) who have suffered unnecessarily due to the Q factor problem. As Phil said it usually shows in ITB syndrome and knee pain, especially with Ultra Endurance riders. The pedal shaft/spacer hacks are a great work around for some. So too are something you didn't mention: switching to flats. This allows people who have discordant hemi pelvises (a surprisingly large part of the population have one half pelvis larger than the other) to move one foot in more for the narrower pelvis half and the other out more for the wider pelvis half. Flats also help those with rotated tibia (lower leg bone below the knee). When standing with knee caps aligned forward these people will have one "duck foot" toed out due not to muscle stance, but BONE. You can't fight bone! These people need to have ability to toe out on one side and flats accomodate this, so that their knees can stay aligned/stress free. Bike makers who target bikes designed for women/wider hipped/pelvis people, should be at least moving to a wider Q factor according to averages and then marketing a bike that "just feels right" for women. It would do a lot towards inclusion in the sport. Stellar content and please more of this type of thoughtful video!!! Well done!
I’ve run 59cm spindles +1mm washers for many years. When I switched to the wahoo brand, they whack you $50 extra dollars just for the extra 6mm in width. I use some of the additional width to keep the cleats in a reasonable position on shoe, instead of pushing them in to their most extreme position. I also recommend the stainless steel cleat panels to protect the cleat baseplates. Also, if you’re a shorter under 5ft7in, definitely consider running shorter cranks. I’ve gone to 165mm and it’s the best change I’ve made.
I added two 1mm washers to each side of my cranks and found it made a massive difference for me in both comfort on the bike and delivery of power. I also noticed that i wasn't as fatigued at the end of a ride as i had been without widening my stance.
Always remember in the Graeme Obree film. His Q Factor - one banana wide
Wider pedals also put more twisting motion into your Bottom Bracket bearings outer cups where the spindle passes through, this will lead to oval cups which means these cups will wear down and your spindle will start to wobble leading to creaks. This does not happen if the spindle is in direct contact with press fit bearings as the spindle has no plastic cup to crush. Be aware of this as when these plastic inner cups lose their original thickness now the spindle has 1-1.2mm of space of wobbling around.
Every watt from a pedal stroke is already imparting a twisting moment on your cranks. Bottom brackets are already meant to resist force in all directions as the crank loads them in 360 degrees. A crank pointed straight down with your weight on it is imparting the same force that the extra moment created by a longer pedal axle will create when your cranks are at 90 degrees. And I would wager that it applies that force at much higher magnitude, as the cranks are a much longer lever than pedals are.
In short, there will be a tiny bit of extra loading on your bottom bracket in an axis where it is designed to be loaded, and it will be far less loading than the force of the pressure against the cranks provides.
The only force that is increased in any real magnitude is an additional torque (twisting force) on the crank arms themselves, and an increase in the load on the threads in the cranks (which is one of the reasons why the 16-20mm extenders are frowned upon)
But, Ganna rides Assioma Duo Shi's (or he did for his hour record anyway) which have a spindle length 9 or 10mm longer than a standard shimano pedal, and if he isn't twisting his crank arms pushing 500w for 30 minutes, or surely well over 1500w in some of his sprints, then there is nothing to be concerned about.
Anyway, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I would really hate for people not to make this change if it helped their physiology or reduced pain because they were worried it would be hard on their bottom bracket when the physics for that don't add up. I ride wide spindles for knee reasons, and last year I couldn't stick to 400km a month without injury, this year with wider spindles I am more than double that.
Trying to decide here as it affects a power meter decision. For road pedals, there's the question of crank or pedal based power metering, and if pedal, you have the question of Garmin (adjustable from 53 to 55mm whether Look Keo or Shimano) or Favero (54mm for Look Keo, a whopping 65mm for Shimano).
Femoral Head lateral distance is called Medial Offset when having a false hip installed.
It is the distance across the centres of the hip ball joints.
Get an X-Ray.
My Femoral Head lateral distance is 270mm. That is the distance I set my 3rd Metatarsal distance at their base.
Yes, by coincidence - I wanted to put a real big chainring on my bike (still equipped with Campagnolo Record Carbon square taper cranks), but it was only available for Shimanos 130mm bcd, so I put off the Campagnolo cranks and put on a pair of Shmanos FC-7410 onto the Record bb, as the angle of the ISO square taper is the same like the low profile JIS norm, the ISO spindle is just a little bit thinner, so I just put a little bit wax instead of greaseon the spindle to prevent the cranks rattling loose. Doing so, I found that on the highest gear (big ring and smallest spocket) there was only 1mm space between the chain and the crank when rotating beside the chain, so I put in a small spacer between the right bottom bracket shell and the frame's bottom bracket housing. As the cranks nearly get completely on the bb's spindle, I suppose the q factor is about 6mm less than the q factor of the original setup FC 7410/BB 7403. As I finally got a Gebhardt chainring for 135mm with the required teeth number, I am going to put on the Campag cranks again, and I will see whether I will notice a difference.
Great new video there Big Man!! A part of bike fit l honestly never thought about before. I have all the other points of possible discomfort worked out on my bike, but still have some problems. This new information, as brought to us By You, may be the answer to my long persistent problems. Thank You SO much for the Insight!!😎
Such useful information I'd never really heard of Q factor before this but thank you for opening my eyes to it. This could really help reduce knee issues and comfort on the bike. Great video...
Way back in the 80's/90's Grant Peterson when working for Brigdestone bicycles in the U.S. was the first one who started dealing with Q factor, so to say he was way ahead of the game concerning Q factor, to get his take on this subject he can now can be reached at Rivendell bicycles.
hi, thanks for the comment! That's very cool to know. Cheers 👍
My hips are retroverted so my range of motion through 90 degrees is about 70 % externally and 20% internally, I walk duck foot and was getting loads of hip pain trying to pedal in a straight up and down motion. Once I went to a larger q-factor it allowed me to increase the angle on my cleats to around 15% when meant my q angle was far more fluid and I can push all the way through the pedal stroke now. Much more comfortable, larger power increase, much less fatigue.
I think it will be difficult to do studies on this topic, since there is so much biomechanics going on here. What a comfortable measurement for a Q-Factor will be, differs from rider to rider.
It is not only about power-downput, but also about steering and balance, saddle- and leg / cleat positioning, muscular leg imbalances, width of your pelvis (distance between the hip joint-balls), old injuries, further there is positions, axes and angles of joints (X/O-legs), crank length, saddle angle/saddle grip, comfortable but snug fit of your foot in your shoe....
I call it a chain of joints: down from hipjoint, over knee-joint, ankle joint, and joints in the feet.
I think one will end up best with a natural position when letting hang ones legs down loosely and can then go from there for further bike fitting.
One thing you really didn't cover is we all have a natural width. This is our strongest skeletal structure. Deviation from this width can cause joint and muscle strains. Going wider is not the Holy grail. It may work for you it may not. I would suggest that one stay within their natural width as best as possible and make sure your cleats are aligned properly
Back when I was riding a road frame designed for 2x5 with original Dura-Ace cranks, I had Q-factor down around 120mm. I try to keep mine as small as possible. These days I settle for 145mm or so. I don't like a Q over 150mm, which limits my interest in riding bikes with big tires.
Great topic. Very helpful.
Atac pedals and some others have a type of float that lets you vary your stance width just by moving your feet around or clipping in at the inside or outside edge of the pedal.
First noticed the difference when I borrowed a set of Assioma power meter pedals from a friend. The extra width felt freer and initially comfortable. When I returned them, normal width pedals felt strange and tight again, maybe as I undid some adaptation. I use 16mm extenders on each side now, and have tried to tweak my cleat width - I feel I'm pedalling more perpendicular, generally feel comfortable, but I think I've had knee pain crop up in either width. My current bike has a wider top tube, so the extenders also help keep my knees clear.
This is something that I've not considered. I'm definately going to try this
I find that crank arm length has a bigger impact on fit and power output. As we age, we become less flexible and we cannot provide peak power if we ask our top leg (the one at the top of the stroke) to provide power immediately when beginning the downstroke. When my fitter shortened the crank arm length, my power output went way up. I didn't ignore Q factor - I have longer Speedplay spindles. The combination of these two is a great example of the benefits of a professional bike fit.
INTERESTING Something I hadn’t considered much but it makes sense!!!
It should be pointed out that you need to do this with the pedals. The bottom bracket spindle isn't really adjustable beyond setting the chain line correctly. Once that is optimized those dimensions are pretty much set.
A really informative vid. Love the info on pedal options, esp sqlabs.
Well done, Connor 👍
Glad we could help 🙌
Well done Francis and James… errr I mean GCN
I’m 6’ 6” and ever since going clipless I’ve built bikes with wider than standard Q factor. I didn’t know what it was called but I did it for comfort.
Have the older Campy narrow crankset- more efficient for sure. As for my occasional knee pain- seems more related to my cashier's job and my age.
Would like to know how to measure Q factor on a bike. I guess mark a line on some masking tape on the middle of the seat tube or down tube as a measurement point. After buying an eCargo bike, I had some hip issues. Switched to a pedal with toe clips (SPD on the other side which I haven’t tried yet). It’s a bit better but want to see if the Q is different than my road bike.
Great video Conor & thanks for the informtion
How do long pedal spindles effect unclipping from pedals? Do longer spindles make it easier to unclip from pedals? Thanks for the video!
I would like to see a study looking at stance & knee damage/injury. I suspect riding with a narrow stance is hard on your knees. I mean nobody squats with their feet close together!
Had to change my Q-factor due to wanting some Favero Assioma duo shi's. Giving me 10mm extra Q-factor per pedal. Did some digging into this before purchase, and just changing bikes alone ie from MTB to road to hybrid, all have varying stance widths. My findings said that most won't notice a huge difference, but some may benefit from going larger. Seen some duo shi's being sold second hand due to flaring up a users knee injury. So some can be more sensitive than others. Myself, only had them a week and done one crit race. Can't say I noticed a difference at all!
I added a pedal washer on each side as a result of my bike fit (thanks Fraser Bike, Michigan)re knee arthritis issues, it was like someone turned the lights on
Q factor is usually wider in MTB, and I've never noticed anything switching between road and MTB. But maybe for someone really on the large or small side, it could make a noticeable difference
Further more it would be interesting to check if the pedals left and right have the same distance to the center of the frame!?
I have pedal extenders with great results. Except it doesn't take much lean angle to be scraping pedals on the ground while cornering ! On its on my gravel bike which I think has a lower BB height than a road bike.
Very insightful!! Will ask my bit fitter next time I adjust my bike! :-))
Making Q wider is easy. Narrower? My heels already brush my crankarms. We're stuck with the widths that the manufacturers make. Cranks have to work in conjunction with front derailleurs and frame manufacturer's chainlines. Why not list every commonly available crank (brand and model), chainline and q-factor? Then we can pick the narrowest (if that's one's goal).
Thanks for doing this vid. Back in the 80s and 90s racing this wasn't something that was talked about in my circles and I frequently had chafing, hip and knee issues, some of it due to fixed clipless pedals but some due to Q factor, which I started to look at when I got back into cycling in the last 15 years. MTB q factor seems to be slightly wider anyhow but road/gravel bike Q factor seems noticeably narrower, so I notice definite issues when changing bikes.
Very interesting and well researched video. Thanks Conor. I wonder why there are no asymmetrical/offset cleats to change your stance. Would be the cheapest option and a good way to experiment.
Just recently, after not being able to comfortably being able to ride the bike more than 1.5 hours, due to chafing, or using a narrow saddle that reduced this pressure issues, I decided to experiment with 16mm titanium extender's. In combination with also changing my crank length to 160mm, I've transformed the bike, and feel I could now ride for hours. I can use the saddle I want to use and chafing is minimized, although it's not perfect, but I'm not sure how much more it could be improved for myself. I've never had a bike fit, as where I live, nothing is near by, but have set the bike up, that seems to be a good compromise for my short legs and longer body, for which a bike is either too tall, but right length or the right height and too short. I had a 130mm stem on the bike that was aero, but as there was too much weight on the front of the bike, it was unbalanced. I now run 105mm stem, and the saddle as far back as I can get it, but the balance is good, but I loose some aero. It's just great to be able to be able to ride, and feel with that ability to now train properly, I should be ready for an event I would like to do next year, involving 235km's of ride with 4000m's of climbing.
What about foot position for squats and deadlifts? We could probably move on from this topic. Extenders are useful for foot/chainstay clearance.
Grant Petersen claims to have invented the term Q-factor back when he was a frame designer for Bridgestone in the 80's
Trying to ride with the legs or knees rather closer to the frame and maybe our hips are wider or maybe it’s not natural for us us to ride that way we screw up our knees. at least for me it was my right knee. They gave me lots of trouble because of a narrow Q factor and using the standard size SPD pedals when I started to road bike seriously in 2011 now you have the availability of getting Shimano SPD pedals with a wider axle or spindle that is and that makes a difference that’s what I use and I have a gravel bike and I have a mountain bike and I have a fixed gear bike too with the mountain bike SPD pedals that naturally are wider and I don’t have any knee issues with any of those bikes. I’m actually able to transfer power, but it was the narrow factors of road bikes that really didn’t sit well with my body so bring on and keep the wider axles in the pedals. They work some wonders. !!!
Had to bite the bullet. On all my mtb (oops 5 lol) I feel comfortable but on both road bikes my left hip drops. It’s been cleat shimmed, offset, but I’ve just bit the bullet and ordered new longer spindle pedals. I’m duck footed and a narrow q really twists my hips and sore knees laterally.
I only ride the road for fitness on the mtb so I’m happy to accept the un-aero if it makes me more comfortable.
speed play pedals allow for lateral or medial adjustment fairly easily but keo cleats do not as that front screw allows for fore and aft movement only. Am I missing something though? I ride with Favro assioma power pedals.
ok, actually all these screws only really allow fore and aft movement. Can I actually change my Q factor with cleat adjustment with keo cleats?
I mostly use flat pedals, and I've noticed that I tend to place my feet out toward the outer edge of the pedals. This and some other fit issues with clipless, convince me I need a wider stance width than bikes typically give me.
I have a very “duck footed” (heal in, toes out) pedaling stance so use pedal extenders to keep my heals from hitting the crank arms. I use 2.5 to 4 cm long pedal extenders so that the Q-Factor is exactly the same on my mnt, gravel, and road bikes. I couldn’t ride a bike at all without these pedal extenders.
@randypratt6304 I have been trying to find extenders, but all I see are 16mm and 20mm. Where did you find those shorter extenders?
So, based on what you've said, does it mean for a broad foot the wider pedal is a better option?
Excellent, excellent information.
It is possible to have different length , left and right ? Or it messes up with pedal stroke?
What effect does Q factor have on the knees "waving" in and out as you pedal? Particularly on harder efforts?
Connor, don’t you think your seat is in a little too forward of a position? If that’s where you need to sit, maybe you’re on too big of a frame or need one with a shorter top tube. It also doesn’t look very cool so far forward on the seat tube.
On my MTB with flat pedals, I noticed that I tend to not use the spikes on the inside when standing. Recently, I got a bike fit on my road bike, and my fitter put my cleats almost all the way in, which may be due to me simply coming from MTB and being used to wider BBs. I am 180cm, mostly legs.
Got any comments or tips on knee height when peddling? On the last two bikes I bought my knees run up so that they are parallel to my hips. That is my thighs are flat from the hip to the knee at the top of the arc of my peddling. Yet the measures tell me that my saddle height is correct and any higher would have me rocking in the saddle. I can't help feeling that the way things are though, I am working too hard on climbs in particular. I notice that pretty much everyone else from professional to casual riders have a slant in their thigh from hip down to knee at the top arc of their peddle stroke.
if you use flat pedals does Q factor automatically adjust to suit hip knee alignment? Maybe it's only an issue with clipless fixing your feet in place. Maybe another vote in favor of flats with good cycling shoes for power transfer and comfort.
Humans have O and X legs, different width hips and so the Q factor must vary as well. Graeme Obree with his average height and willpower for extreme innovation riding a very narrow Q shouldn't surprise anyone. Good thing the UCI didn't look at his Q back then, otherwise they might have introduced a minimum ;-)
I see a few caveats, too narrow and your thighs can rub against the saddle, your foot may rotate at an angle where you increase the pressure on the outside of your foot.
I think hip width and knee biomechanics are thr determining factors for this
Excellent info thanks 🙏
Thanks for the info
Great info here!!!
Definitely worth trying out first before heading to the Orthopaedic Department for a knee replacement surgery.🤔
I run Garmin Rally XC200 power pedals (SPD). The Garmin Connect report is listing Platform Center Offest (PCO) as 10mm to the outside of each pedal's centerline. Does this mean I should move my cleats out towards my little toe? There isn't 10mm of adjustment. Or do I need longer spindles to move the pedals away from the bottom bracket and under my power point? I keep my pedal clips set to the minimum adjustment.
People just can't accept that sometimes you need a wider q-factor. They thought that narrowest you can jam in to your bike is better
Very important for women.
7:35 "Look at your feet stance, it's so horrifying that I had to point out!"
Looks like Connor needs a zero offset seatpost too ;-)
Christ, this guy is a giant!