ThegnThrand I know how you can test Thor's hammer. Attach a lobed pommel to the shaft of a hammer and throw it. It must be where Mjolnir's power comes from.
large company studio, gets a horse, high expensive camera that can even record in slow-mo, buy cheapo mail to test. A guy that create youtube content video. Get the real expensive historical accurate as possible *Riveted* mail
Xekratos PLATE ARMOR IS MADE OF METAL, ITS OBVIOUSLY HUNDREDS OF POUNDS!!!! BUT SAMURAI ARMOR IS LIKE KATANA IT IS BEST AND IS SUPER LIGHT LIKE KATANA!!!!
Bunch of fools here. Clearly a thrown pommel would decimate everything in this section. And since left is relative to right, nothing would be left as it would end them rightly.
I think too many people have seen "tests" against butted, poorly made mail with unuasually large rings. You can rip that sort of thing apart with your bare hands and "pierce" it with a sharpened pencil.
You know, whatever else you might say about Mat Pat's For Honor video, one very good thing has come from it. It helped people like me to discover your channel, as well as Shadiversity, Skalagrim, and the Metatron.
I wonder if MatPat will ever respond to the videos that people have made in response to his bullshit. I hope so. I doubt he's even watching them. I doubt it do to his ego.
Yeah thats how he deals with this kind of shit, he burys his head in the sand and pretends it never happens for like a year before bringing it up in an offhand fashion in a video that has no relation to the original.
+The Stoned Videogame Nerd You might want to sit down before you read the rest of this message. Some folks think that there are things in life, besides money, that are important.
He won't he never does. Like the time he got caught cheating the math on his Mario is faster than Sonic video so he could say Mario is faster. He always lies in his videos.
The interesting thing about recurve bows is that they're equivalent to a longbow with a 20lb heavier draw weight, and the fiberglass recurves are equivalent in performance to proper composite bows. What you've got here is roughly equivalent to a 90lb longbow. Also, I love that you're using quilted padding! I've been waiting to see some for a long time. Hopefully you're going to keep using it.
Jonathan Dean OK but I would love to see a proper warbow tested. interesting to see what would happen with a 130-140lbs bow could do. also I would love to see a crossbow test as well.
Silly person. It's simple. Wood < Iron < steel < Nordic < Ancient < Enchanted < Ancient Nordic < dwarven < Random evil God #5 Arrows. And it's the exact same list for the bows. Nonsuch thing as longbow or shortbow.
Hail Thrand, I tried messaging you on Facebook but it didn't get through, the Arrows I made you are on their way, they should arrive in the next few days customs willing.
this is why war bows were so much higher in draw weights and why war arrow were so much thicker. and even then it was often the cumulative effect of many hits that finally did the damage or in some cases a lucky shot into a gap in protection.
This test actually surprised Me. Nice. I have always wondered about the Kinetics of arrows. At close range You lose some velocity with travel, because of flat trajectory. But at Long range- does it gain because of the high arc & plunge back to earth?
Scott Mason you would have better chance with a thick plastic body plating, remember chain can onlu stop blades that are larger than the gaps in the rings, shivs/ shanks are usually small in size. Also a good hard plastic will cost you very little and weigh less.
Awesome! Please now can we see sword thrusts, draw cuts and false-edge tip cuts, axe strokes, Dane axe strokes, spear thrusts and overarm slides, seax chops and thrusts etc. against this mail?
Well, arrows were not the killers in the battlefield most people think. They worked more like area deniers where you can saturate an area and force an enemy to break their formation. Also, in a real combat, arrows would be coming from an arch trajectory which effectively increases the protection they have to go through though (and some energy loss across the way) it might reduce ricochet chance though due to the angle. But yeah, properly supported mail armour is very resistant against arrows. Imagine something with double chain like a Lorica Hamata. Really good videos.
It was in the thumbnail, and the title and he mentioned it about 3 or 4 times in the video. I wouldn't say clickbait and it's not like it's a big deal or anything but it felt a bit overkill to me.
Question! Ok, so the arrows generally won’t penetrate maille. What sort of blunt damage will they do, though? Would it be like a hammer blow, could it knock a man over?
What's that dark color fabric/maille you are shooting at and blocks the arrows at the 10.00 minute of this video ? is it arrow proof? can you send link if you made an episode about this, Thank you...
I wonder if the preference for lamellar over mail in cultures where bows and crossbows were common on battlefields in large numbers may be psychological rather than physical. A human(or horse) would feel a lot safer feeling arrows plinking off of a plate of armor rather than feeling a dent form in their mail every time an arrow bounced, and morale is very important.
Any more info on the specifications of the bow and arrow? I know it's borrowed and all, but it would be great to see the specs on the arrows as well as how many fps you are getting out of the bow. Everyone likes to throw around poundage like it means something, but I'd wager that bow is significantly faster than a yumi of equal draw weight (the shape is more efficient and the material is likely better as well). If you have access to a local archery shop, see if they will put the bows you use on a draw table (at the length you pull) in addition to getting some shots through a chronograph. I'd bet that a yumi shoots a heavier arrow than that recurve though, so you may see more momentum from the yumi (where as the recurve will have a higher kinetic energy). I'd be interested to see which factor contributes to more damage and penetration (if the chainmail is acting like a bullet proof vest which could be more easily defeated by the slower projectile with more momentum). For anyone who is curious why this might make a difference, bows of sufficient strength can shoot straight through modern bullet proof vests without trauma plates. I'd be interested in see ing you guys test the armor up until the point of failure to see what it would actually take to defeat it. Also, trauma patches (for measuring G forces) on the impact zone would be a cool test of how much injury is occurring through the armor. I know my bow (60lb compound) puts out energy equivalent to a light loading of .22 LR . Even if it didn't penetrate, i'd wager it wouldn't feel nice. Keep up the awesome work!
Great stuff here! I have two points for you to consider: First of all, it would be a good idea to spray some bug spray around the target to keep the flies off if you are using blood or meat etc! Secondly, I am curious about the precise measurements of the rings in your mail. I looked it up on medieval shoppe, and didn't see the model of haubergeon you own as being available anymore. With this being said, the vast majority of mass produced mail shirts I have seen (and the two I own) use an ID of 9mm. In particular, one of my shirts uses washers of that same type. I have seen a few 8mm ID shirts for sale on ebay, but they are much rarer. 5/16" converts out to 7.94mm, so if the rings have an ID of 8mm then that analogy is pretty much correct. But, if the rings are really 9mm as I suspect, then the ID will be off by over 1/32" or 1mm. This is a big deal to me, as having made butted mail years ago I noticed the density and weight are really sensitive to internal diameter. As such, this could affect your tests a good deal. If you can measure the ID of the mail precisely, it would be much appreciated! -ChainArmor712
You need to look up my newest video I test 105# Warbow on armour. Warbow / English Longbow Vs Plate, Chain Maille and Gambesonruclips.net/video/JqkiKjBQe7U/видео.html
Stupid question... so how were soldiers even killed then? I assumed that standard mail that most soldiers wore were weak to stabs+arrows, but obviously, it doesn't. These armors seemed quite invincible then considering he didn't fire the arrow too far from the target (which meant the arrow didn't lose much kinetic energy). How were soldiers even killed then? (Probably a simple answer to this but I'm genuinely curious)
Ah! I forgot that you also tested gambison, which I assumed most soldiers used and the arrows penetrated. Video games led me to believe standard soldiers wore """"weak""" maille and were just pelted by arrows and thrusts while the generals used plate armor that people cut through anyways haha. I enjoy video games, but I appreciate the honesty from these videos' tests. Thanks again for the reply!
This from the battle of Wisby about the vulnerability of armor of the wounds received before it's revamp into the 1400's. "There were 456 wounds with visible evidence of cutting weapons, such as swords and axes. There were 126 which were from piercing weapons such as arrows, lances and "morning stars" which were a wooden ball studded with metal spikes and attached to a short handle with a chain and these were used against head and shoulders from above. There were also an undisclosed number of crushing injuries by the mace and war hammer. The latter were also often used to finish off the wounded." This battle so violent and bloody that it is thought one man was cut in half with a single sword stroke, and plenty of evidence for it. another skull is almost sliced completely in half, and was wearing a coif. almost none had arrow wounds unless it was directly to the face of the open helmets of the time period. But evidence suggests that the head was the favored target.
" "morning stars" which were a wooden ball studded with metal spikes and attached to a short handle with a chain and these were used against head and shoulders from above" Can i ask the source of this? I thought ball and chain morning stars were a legendary red herring and none had ever been found? This wiki on morning stars only show solid pole weapons: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_star_(weapon) And this from the "flail" page "Despite being very common in fictional works such as cartoons, films and role-playing games as the "quintessential medieval weapon," historical information about this type of flail is somewhat scarce. A few doubt they existed at all due to the number of pieces sitting in museums that turned out to be forgeries, as well as the unrealistic way they are depicted in art.[12][13][14][15][16][17] Archaeologically, however, a type of military flail known as a kisten, with a non-spiked head and a leather, rather than chain, connection to the haft is attested in the 10th century in the territories of the Rus, probably being adopted from the either the Avars or Khazars. This weapon had spread into central and eastern Europe in the 11th - 13th centuries and may be considered an ancestor of the ball-and-chain flail.[18] Waldman (2005) documented several seemingly authentic examples of the ball-and-chain flail from private collections as well as several restored illustrations from German, French, and Czech sources. He states that the scarcity of artifacts and artistic depictions, combined with the almost complete lack of text references, suggests they were relatively rare weapons and never saw widespread use.[19]" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flail_(weapon)#The_ball-and-chain_flail
"He shoots the viking in the back" and nothing happens. The knights sword might have done something, which begs the question, what does Mat Pat have against vikings? He had both of the other warriors gang up on what he said was the weaker opponent.
+Gloin79 The funny thing is, there is more archaeological evidence for vikings having helmets in the 11th century than knights, as not a single helmet has been found in france or england from the 11th century.
you should try with bodkin arrowheads, three bladed arrowheads are the worst for penetrating mail as it distributes the impact on three points. the bodkin arrowhead would widen or open a ring (its designed for that).
So I keep hearing how bows inflicted such grievous casualties in the past. How!? They cant seem to penetrate anything, from plate to mail, to even the cheap gambinson. Can someone explain to me how bows were effective?
At 3:00 bowman placed his arrow in a wrong way - in such a way feather will interfere the shot badly. At 3:32 the same story. And again and again. Just wonder why?
Usually the one with different color should be lined out of the bow. It is really no matter of color, but seems to me that in this video one fletch is always line to the bow. And second arrow without one fletch seems to lose it because of the same usage. If suppose that this is fletching -
Hey, wondering if you could point me toward your sources for historical yumi draw weights. I've been looking for English language sources for this and haven't been able to find anything. I'd appreciate it if you could point me in the right direction.
BalbazaktheGreat There are no direct data to that, some said that it was less than 100lbs, others said it was around 140-150lbs. However this test was far from being accurate... I think the truth is in the middle. Yumi bow were powerful bow with a focus on armor piercing, they used to shot heavy arrow with less range and slightly less speed than for example a longbow, but they were powerful at same draw weight for example. Here there is an interesting article: www.tameshigiri.ca/2014/04/10/the-asian-war-bow-the-physics-of-asian-archery/
Great video. I got into an argument with some guys over the issue of Turkish/Mongolian/Hungarian bows and bodkin point arrows were good against viking era chain mail. I said that it is nigh impossible for the arrow to pierce the mail. Could you do a test video about a reflex bow with 120-140 pound draw weight fireing bodkin point arrows against this mail to prove the point?
Maybe try a bow like Saint Olaf's archer? I think his name was Adar. A compound bow would also be cool to see. Great channel by the way, I like how you prove your points.
Too many people are influenced by movies and TV shows to believe mail is as weak as cobweb. Being a expensive form of armor that existed for about 2000 years starting in the 5th century BC, and is time consuming to make, it would defy logic that people would continue to make them and pay for them if any random arrow or knife can just go through them. Some mail armor are so well made, the flat portion of the rings fit together to form a plate like surface.
A little bit of doubt: You said that this bow has around the same draw force as yumi, but: 1. I believe that yumi as a lot larger bow probably has longer arrows, so it can accelerate them a bit more. 2. Yumi is supposed to be used from the horseback and this should add a lot to the final speed (and power) of arrows.
Yeah, but you don't ride straight towards someone when shooting on horseback, because you want to keep the ennemy at a distance. And because of the greater distance, the arrows lose speed, and that makes the test accurate for a shot at long distance, like in the matpat video. Finaly, historical evidence shows that most arrow injuries where to the head, when wearing an oppen face helmet
You still ride towards them, but with some angle. This still adds to the speed of arrows. Even if you shoot perpendicularly to the direction you ride this adds to the speed of an arrow.
Yeah, lateral velocity, not very usefull. And again, even if it did add something usefull, you would be at a distance and would lose more energy, so the test is still valid.
Actually Manchu horse archers did ride to extreme close range (as in 8m or less) before shooting. That's one of the perks of having a horse. Samurai's was about 15m.
Hello from Big Thicket, hey bro if you find some old carpet you can double or triple it and use it as a back stop for your arrows. a lot easier on the arrows.ps love the balloch dagger gonna get one. thanks for vids
I find it odd no matter where i looke i cant find the Average historical draw weight that a Samurai whould have ont he feild, i assume it would be lower than the English since the armor they were countering was different...
Medieval Shoppe Australia but uncertain if he has more of the exact same style this is rivet maille round stock rings and flat stamped rings every other row. They do have some nice all riveted maille.
This would be another good test video just would need a medieval heavy crossbow to do the test properly. A modern would be like the bow have tested it before.
@@Thrand11 also something else i've been thinking. ok it protects from the piercing itself, but what abou the blunt force? how much does it protect the wearer from it?
One thing I notice a lot in the comments around this cluster of medieval war related channels on youtube, is that there seems to be a lot of misconceptions about Japanese military archery, especially that of the Samurai era. A lot of people seem to think of the Japanese yumi as being similar to the yumi used in modern Kyudo archery. They further consider the usage of these bows to be similar to say, English longbow archers. Combine this with the partially wrong misconceptions about the Samurai being primarily cavalry archers, and a lot of misinterpretation occurs. For one, Japanese samurai yumi were not all the large 2m+ bows of the type you see in modern Kyudo. Those are descended from 的弓 or target bows for the Heian era 本弓 Honkyu, or the basic bow. They are essentially, the descendants of training bows. Then you have the 半弓 or half bow, which is about 2/3 the length of the Honkyu, and the 本半弓 which is about half the length of the Honkyu. These bows each use arrows of different lengths and weights for different purposes. The long bows are believed to be the cavalry bows, while the 'half bows' were infantry bows. Therefore, the Kyudo image of a grounded man using the 2m+ bows, is likely not historically accurate to actual military use of such bows. In actuality, infantry archers likely used the half bows, probably around 5.5' long. Japanese bows, were not built for range. It is unlikely that they were used in the sort of long range 'aim at the sky and rain arrows down' tactics popularized in western cinema. They were however, said to be pretty good for accuracy and penetration at closer ranges. Unlike the stereotypical western Longbows, which were predominantly selfbows, Japanese bows were composite recurve bows. They used heavy arrows for punch and penetration at shorter ranges. Military bows weren't strung until battle preparations, and could take two or three men to string. Another misconception is that Samurai always fought against Samurai. That's not entirely true. Unlike something like the Roman Legion, Japanese warlords didn't usually have a standing army. When they went to war, they recruited or conscripted a large portion of their armies. Further, Samurai = Cavalry, was in the early days of Samurai. They eventually gravitated away from that, and went to being infantry archers and heavy cavalry. Even in the early days, when Samurai were primarily cavalry archers, they didn't often go out to fight cavalry archer vs cavalry archer. Cavalry archers weren't long range troops. It would be more of a case of infantry lines of conscripts armed with polearms and half bows, holding the line behind a wall of pavise shields, (commanded by samurai), while cavalry archers sallied out from behind, took shots over the enemy line, and retreated back behind their lines. The cavalry needed the longer bows to outrange the half bows the infantry would use to repel the cavalry, while the infantry archers needed the punch to take down horse at flat trajectories. Once they got the archer off his mount, they could sally out from their lines and crowd him with polearms.
The arrows do not have the mass of spears a Thrown spear can possibly go through but the arrows bouncing had nothing to do with that the maille can not be pierced by that light of projectile traveling at that speed. It would take a higher pound bow to do so if possible. The bounce is from gel which acts like the belly or flesh and the padding not just one. the reason the arrow kicks up is not bad trajectory its the quick stop due not being able to pierce the maille and padding. You see this effect too when hitting a thin shield that can not be pierced due to density. Maille is not easily pierced by arrows even the Japanese used Kusari stand alone and sealed rings. The idea maille is easily pierced comes from testing modern butted maille. Even gambeson or multiple layers of cloth and padding is hard for arrows to pierce. The more giver the harder to cut the maille. Breaking the rings is almost impossible with the giver they will football when hit if not cut. Bodkins are used to slip between rings if possible due to ring size. A very high pound bow can pierce is but also depends on amount and type of gambeson under it and gauge of maille.
Hanaar Steelhand solid rings were usually stamped out of small plates. It's a lot less time consuming work to hammer out a plate and stamp rings out of it than to make round wire rings and rivet them. Also, that material is way too thin for forge welding to my experience as a semi-trained hobby-level blacksmith.
The two issues that I see are that you appear short draw the bow compared to what a historical archer would have done (modern draw is shorter to get better accuracy, whereas historically they drew closer to thirty inches rather than the modern average of twenty-eight) and you appear to use arrows that are too light. The latter can make a difference of something like 10-15% efficiency (which can give an increase of 20% or so kinetic energy because of the way the math works out), and a longer power stroke can increase the energy still further. I would suggest that, if you want a more historically accurate test, get arrows that are about 30-32" and 700+ grains, draw to the back of your jaw bone, and try that. Also, it's worth noting that 70# is about the lowest draw weight that the Norse of that period would consider useful in war. Many of their bows were considerably more powerful than that.
Hail Thrand, just recently started watching your vids and already love ones like this. I was wondering, because me and a friend are discussing the age old argument of Japanese warfare vs. European warfare, if you plan on getting and testing historical Japanese weapons like the yumi and kenobo against European armor.
We have a video testing full Japanese Yoroi and can not see why we can not test European armor against such weapons the Kanabo is just a club or two handed mace in Europe. The yumi is just a spear but spears work on European armor so do huge mauls and maces why both cultures used them. All though they were more common in Europe because of superior armor.
ThegnThrand The yumi is a spear? I thought it was a bow, guess me and my friend where both wrong on that. I was mostly curious about the practicality of the Kanabo vs European maces.
i thing it will be interesting try it again with historicly acurate arrows. i thing there could be differences , wood arrow with steel point , who knows maybe heavy arrow make more damage
An arrow isn't really lethal against mail (big surprise, armor works!) but I bet getting hit would really hurt. Gives credence to the use of archers in close quarters instead of just artillery.
Ur using carbon fiber arrows with modern heads designed for Target shootingWar arrows are heavy arrows with a lot of momentum and energy for penetrationThe arrows are not spined for heavy draw weightsAnd Dont forget to shoot with an anchor point
i was shocked at chain mail not being pierced with an arrow, since i thought that its weakness a piercing weapons, and blunt weapons. but then again spears and straight swords would probably do alot to the chain. this is just observing. i like the test. so with all the padding that you would traditionally have with the chain over it seems you would have ample protection against bows of that nature and such. correct me if im wrong but isnt chain also good against slashing weapons as well? keep up the great work thrand
shadowcrone He actually did some tests with rivited mail and blades. It's in "stop using butted mail" vid, or whatever the title was. And mail won. Hell, I even saw him throw javelins at it! still a win! RPG games' armor stats are pure bullshit.
this was not for rpg stats. was on another discussion. it was partly from deadliest warrior katana vs chain mail. where i first heard that chain was good against slashing weapons
Chain in basically 100% immune to slashing damage. It's very strong against piercing as you can see though not immune. It's real weakness is impact weapons like maces which it offers virtually no protection against but that's why you'd wear something like gambeson underneath.
Do however realise that chainmail is made to negate slashing, and protects the user. However the one thing that could prove fatal to a man who wore a byrnie would be not to be cut, but rather to be crushed. "How do you figure?" you ask, well! Blunt force trauma can occur even if you swing with a sharp weapon at your enemy. Say if you swing an axe at a man's chest and ribcage, a solid and hard area, the axe may not cut through the chain but with a hard enough swing you may break a rib or two which will hinder his abilities even further. Then you keep swinging at him, effectively breaking his bones as you go about your day.
Einherjar Skadisson and the second axe hit to a weakened rib cage or broken rib is extremely likely to push a rib that punctures a lung and then he's one for the valkyries...
I like this test; however, I wonder if arrow weight might make a difference? You're using light, modern arrows, and didn't the more well-equipped medieval warriors use relatively heavy, sturdy arrows?
FrogmortonHotchkiss He didn't use a war Yumi, nor the technique used to shot a Yumi, neither a japanese arrow which were similar to the european in weight and used modern steel rings, and then claim that a Yumi couldn't pierce a mail shirt. Is like doing a test with a butted cheap iron rings and no padding and then claim that it was shit. *This Is not experimental archeology, just straight and plain misinformations*. Everytime somebody get butthurted because their historical warriors get evalueted in a different way they didn't like, they always have to do this kind of bashing videos on the samurai. 10/10
I dont think you are going to get around the "modern steel" issue because no one is using antique mail to test and it would probably be corroded anyway if they did. So analogues are going to be necessary. The material used in this video is mild steel not hardened steel and seems to be a comparable material. Its also a fairly light (and loose) mail shirt compared to a lot of historical mail. With no gambeson. I dont think this is some OP mail shirt. Similarly, using a war yumi replica would be great but the main issue is how fast it shoots the arrow. are you implying that the 11th century yumi was much more powerful? I havent heard any truly stupendous figures though its not an area i know much about. Do you think "the technique" you mentioned would make it faster somehow? Enough to penetrate mail? One thing i do agree on is the arrow. I would like to see a heavier arrow and a metal pointed arrowhead - though whether that was historical I dont know. I only did a quick wiki but this doesnt seem too promising: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Japanese_Yajiri_or_Yanone.JPG
even though there was no penetration, surely there would be some amount of internal hemorrhaging especially with a heavier bow and more historical arrow? Even if there's not, I'll bet even those modern arrows would take the wind out of your sails if you were hit with multiple shots.
While i cant say ive ever been hit with an arrow, surely internal haemorrhaging is unlikely from an arrow if you are wearing mail and padding? Theres not much weight to the arrow and it doesnt pierce. The force otherwise wasnt enough to knock over the dummy. I dont know how sturdy that dummy is but you could probably kick it over. A kick wouldnt give you internal bleeding most of the time. Dont know for sure, just thinking out loud.
If you shoot someone with a gun they don't get knocked over. But if you shoot someone wearing a bullet-proof vest they often get a huge punch that leaves terrible bruises. They are not equivalent entirely but I am sure an arrow delivers a similar punch
So what is the weight of that arrow and the velocity? The kinetic energy is the determining factor here besides the shape of the arrowhead. If that's a 18 to 22 gram arrow at, let's say, 60 m/s your only at 32 to 40 joule. That's really not much, especially when we know warbows and heavy livery arrows at around 64 gram and up, will strike a target with 100 to 160 joule, point blank, depending on the draw weight of the bow. Another thing we have to take into consideration is the quality of the steel the mail shirt is made of. Most mail would be low carbon steel or wrought iron with various degrees of slag inclusions. Modern steel are alloys and have cobalt and other materials to alter its performance. And it's almost slag free and with an exact carbon content. Without exact data on the material at hand here, we can't really say much and draw any meaningful conclusions.
PolluxVarangir kinetic energy is directly proportional to the square of velocity and as heavier things require more force to accelerate than lighter things, the difference in kinetic energy between a heavy but slow projectile and light but fast projectile probably isn't that big. However, momentum is entirely different thing. We know for a fact that war arrows very hefty and fairly heavy as they had to tolerate the impacts and mass also helped to stabilize the arrow against wind etc. I'm just guessing Thrand knows this but he just didn't have proper arrows at hand for obvious reasons.
A 75 lbs bow with a 60 gram arrow should give something like 50 to 74 joule. Matheus Bane reached 74 joule with his 75 lbs bow and 60 gram arrows, but that was a modern laminate longbow. A 75 lbs yew bow will probably shoot arrows at around 60 joules, point blank. The difference is not insignificant. Simon Stanley did som tests with a 150 lbs yew bow. It's in the Great Warbow by Strickland and Hardy. He tested arrows of different weights. The lightest was 53.6 gram and the heaviest 95.9 gram. The heavy arrow made it to 53 m/s and the lightest arrow made it to 64.3 m/s. The initial kinetic energy of the heavy arrow was 134.69 joule and the lightest arrow 110.8 joule. That's an increase of 21 % from the light to the heavy, and that's not insignificant. However, at max distance the increase was 40 %! In other words, 64.1 joule for the lighter arrow and 89.9 joule for the heavy arrow.
I would like to sometime see a test like this done with both histircaly rivited maille AND the same test with butted mail To show of the difference. As i seen so many tests on internet where people use modern cheap butted maille for tests, shooting arrow true it, cutting it and so on. And i don't think everyone. well i even think that most people ingeneral have no idea how big of a difference it is between butted mail and historical maille. There is lots of people out there that do believe that those tests preformed on butted mail is actually valid. as they either don't even know historical european maille was rivited or if they do know they don't think the different is significant. That if an arrow can go through butted crap mail it would be proof that it also could go through rivited maille
Something I should point out. Ballistic gel is TERRIBLE for modelling arrows. An arrow that will go all the way through a massive hog or deer, will go about two inches into ballistic gel. You need to shoot the arrows into just the gel, if you want to have any comparison. It seems like your gel was a thinner mix than most people use, so the arrows were more effective.
Excellent work Thrand. Been waiting for this for ages and it came at the perfect time just as there has been a shitstorm with these GameTheory guys who think arrows beat everything.
In war there where used warbows which are 120pounds 70 pounds from so small distance dont even reach they max velocity and what are you thinking 70 pound bow mostly there are used for hunting not like 120 pound bows who are war bows
Ballistic gelatin is way more elastic than human flesh. It is good for testing gun shots but too strong for testing low velocity projectiles. Try stabbing a ballistic gel with a dagger and you will find it very difficult to stab in.
It depends on type of ballistic gel if you mean traditional gel 10% gel is quite weak and 20% can be tough but the only gel I have seen that is as you discribe that is not very realistic is the synthetic stuff made of plastic or really hight concentrations 20% plus for rifle testing. The synthetic gel like Skall uses seems way tougher than real 20% ballistic gel that is why I use real gelatin plus I have no reason to use synthetic plastic versions I am not vegan.
Somehow, the infamous Lars Andersen managed to penetrate 'riveted' chainmail with his low poundage bow. I doubt the chainmail he is shooting at is decent quality riveted chainmail. ruclips.net/video/2zGnxeSbb3g/видео.html 3:42-3:45
I like how he challenges people with actual experiences and real items.
Thank you! Glad to have you here on our channel :D
Mihnea Azamfirei he challenged them ?
ThegnThrand I know how you can test Thor's hammer. Attach a lobed pommel to the shaft of a hammer and throw it. It must be where Mjolnir's power comes from.
ThegnThrand hey so is that silver soddered Mail like you used before or actual riveted mail?
Joe Judge It's actual riveted mail. He got the shirt a while ago testing was delayed.
large company studio, gets a horse, high expensive camera that can even record in slow-mo, buy cheapo mail to test.
A guy that create youtube content video. Get the real expensive historical accurate as possible *Riveted* mail
LOL Very True :D
BUT MAILLE HAS HOLES IN IT SO OF COURSE STABBING WOULD PIERCE THROUGH!!!! (Uhmmm.... No.)
Xekratos THERE'S SPACE BETWEEN ATOMS SO AN ARROW WILL OBVIOUSLY GO THROUGH IT.
AND A KNIFE AND A SWORD!!!! CHAIN MAIL IS USELESS!!!!!! AND THE SECOND IT TOUCHES SALT IT EXPLODES INTO DUST!
Xekratos PLATE ARMOR IS MADE OF METAL, ITS OBVIOUSLY HUNDREDS OF POUNDS!!!! BUT SAMURAI ARMOR IS LIKE KATANA IT IS BEST AND IS SUPER LIGHT LIKE KATANA!!!!
Bunch of fools here.
Clearly a thrown pommel would decimate everything in this section. And since left is relative to right, nothing would be left as it would end them rightly.
I think too many people have seen "tests" against butted, poorly made mail with unuasually large rings. You can rip that sort of thing apart with your bare hands and "pierce" it with a sharpened pencil.
You know, whatever else you might say about Mat Pat's For Honor video, one very good thing has come from it. It helped people like me to discover your channel, as well as Shadiversity, Skalagrim, and the Metatron.
Very awesome our ancestors and the War Gods work in mysterious ways!
I wonder if MatPat will ever respond to the videos that people have made in response to his bullshit. I hope so. I doubt he's even watching them. I doubt it do to his ego.
Yeah thats how he deals with this kind of shit, he burys his head in the sand and pretends it never happens for like a year before bringing it up in an offhand fashion in a video that has no relation to the original.
+The Stoned Videogame Nerd You might want to sit down before you read the rest of this message. Some folks think that there are things in life, besides money, that are important.
He won't he never does. Like the time he got caught cheating the math on his Mario is faster than Sonic video so he could say Mario is faster. He always lies in his videos.
He is a fucking moron son of a bitch
I ended up leaving his channel because of the blatant BS
finally someone gets the rings right :D
The interesting thing about recurve bows is that they're equivalent to a longbow with a 20lb heavier draw weight, and the fiberglass recurves are equivalent in performance to proper composite bows. What you've got here is roughly equivalent to a 90lb longbow.
Also, I love that you're using quilted padding! I've been waiting to see some for a long time. Hopefully you're going to keep using it.
Jonathan Dean OK but I would love to see a proper warbow tested. interesting to see what would happen with a 130-140lbs bow could do. also I would love to see a crossbow test as well.
Composite bows don't perform better than fiberglass recurves. It's the draw weight and the curvature of the tips that determine the bow's performance.
I'd say it's even equal to a 100# plus English longbow.
I have a important question. Does taking a arrow in the knee. End all of your adventuring days?
Yes, and if you are lucky that is all it ends. If you are Unlucky the infection, means you lose the leg at the very least.
But it would be ineresting Bow vs Knee (+armor)
Darrel Lynch I see.
But does that end your career on WoW?
he is making a joke referring to a video game dialogue guys.....
Ach Shetty Yes I am. And it would be fun if you played along...
Yea to get through chain mail and gambeson it would have to take a serious bow and arrow heads.
Silly person. It's simple.
Wood < Iron < steel < Nordic < Ancient < Enchanted < Ancient Nordic < dwarven < Random evil God #5 Arrows.
And it's the exact same list for the bows. Nonsuch thing as longbow or shortbow.
Where's Eldgrim? We miss him.
The silence is deafening.
FYI, Eldgrim was in yesterday's video interview with Barry Jacobsen.
He now lives else where and even harder to meet up to make videos. Still trying to keep content flowing as fast as possible.
+ThegnThrand he moved to Elsewere? Eldgrim is Khajiit? 🤓
+TheLordArion Elsweyr*
Great video, as always.
Thanks
Also you need to test the Linothorax bodyarmor against a kusarigama-weapon. This is for Thegnthrand.
Hail Thrand, I tried messaging you on Facebook but it didn't get through, the Arrows I made you are on their way, they should arrive in the next few days customs willing.
Awesome thank you looking forward to testing them :D
Is your research on the draw weight of war bows limited to a specific era and location? I was impressed at the performance of the cloth and maile.
I will be testing a warbow 110# at 28" and 140# at 32" draw soon on period maille with gambeson.
Take that MatPat!
Most draw pull for Native American bows were only 35lbs, if that. They never stood a chance.
I don't know if this is a touchy a subject or not but whatever happened to eldgrim?
Tucker Richardson according to one comment i saw he has moved so its harder for them to meet up
Oh okay. I've taken note of his absence as of late so.
this is why war bows were so much higher in draw weights and why war arrow were so much thicker. and even then it was often the cumulative effect of many hits that finally did the damage or in some cases a lucky shot into a gap in protection.
Or just hit in the eye, foot, hand...
I did just watch the doku "Die Deutschen Teil 1 Otto und das Reich" and was very pleased that they showed that chainmail protects against arrows :D
This test actually surprised Me. Nice.
I have always wondered about the Kinetics of arrows. At close range You lose some velocity with travel, because of flat trajectory. But at Long range- does it gain because of the high arc & plunge back to earth?
Draticus Maximus nope arrows lose more kinetic energy in longer ranges
An arrow will only gain the energy used to get up to the top of the arc, so i's still lower velocity then at release.
Cool episode, Thanks! But I think the arrows made the mannequin's butt look big, lol
Why did medieval people replace mail with plate again?
Thanks Thrand, even though you have less subs, you are way cooler than game theoriest
Where did you get the mail? I'd like to get a set to wear concealed while working security. I'd like to avoid a shank in the back.
Scott Mason Medieval Shoppe Australia.
ThegnThrand Thank you! I'll be checking them out. Cheap insurance compared to the cost of my life if things go sideways.
Scott Mason you would have better chance with a thick plastic body plating, remember chain can onlu stop blades that are larger than the gaps in the rings, shivs/ shanks are usually small in size. Also a good hard plastic will cost you very little and weigh less.
Awesome! Please now can we see sword thrusts, draw cuts and false-edge tip cuts, axe strokes, Dane axe strokes, spear thrusts and overarm slides, seax chops and thrusts etc. against this mail?
Well, arrows were not the killers in the battlefield most people think. They worked more like area deniers where you can saturate an area and force an enemy to break their formation. Also, in a real combat, arrows would be coming from an arch trajectory which effectively increases the protection they have to go through though (and some energy loss across the way) it might reduce ricochet chance though due to the angle. But yeah, properly supported mail armour is very resistant against arrows. Imagine something with double chain like a Lorica Hamata.
Really good videos.
I think you forgot to mention that this was a reply to MatPat ;)
Morgan Jones It's in the thumbnail. Click bait?
It was in the thumbnail, and the title and he mentioned it about 3 or 4 times in the video. I wouldn't say clickbait and it's not like it's a big deal or anything but it felt a bit overkill to me.
Question! Ok, so the arrows generally won’t penetrate maille. What sort of blunt damage will they do, though? Would it be like a hammer blow, could it knock a man over?
Mike Reger nope
I love that you say Scandinavian warrior
this was great, thank you for teaching us about this brother
What's that dark color fabric/maille you are shooting at and blocks the arrows at the 10.00 minute of this video ? is it arrow proof? can you send link if you made an episode about this, Thank you...
You, sir, deserve many more views.
I wonder if the preference for lamellar over mail in cultures where bows and crossbows were common on battlefields in large numbers may be psychological rather than physical. A human(or horse) would feel a lot safer feeling arrows plinking off of a plate of armor rather than feeling a dent form in their mail every time an arrow bounced, and morale is very important.
i'd imagine it'd still knock you down though.
Any more info on the specifications of the bow and arrow? I know it's borrowed and all, but it would be great to see the specs on the arrows as well as how many fps you are getting out of the bow. Everyone likes to throw around poundage like it means something, but I'd wager that bow is significantly faster than a yumi of equal draw weight (the shape is more efficient and the material is likely better as well). If you have access to a local archery shop, see if they will put the bows you use on a draw table (at the length you pull) in addition to getting some shots through a chronograph.
I'd bet that a yumi shoots a heavier arrow than that recurve though, so you may see more momentum from the yumi (where as the recurve will have a higher kinetic energy). I'd be interested to see which factor contributes to more damage and penetration (if the chainmail is acting like a bullet proof vest which could be more easily defeated by the slower projectile with more momentum). For anyone who is curious why this might make a difference, bows of sufficient strength can shoot straight through modern bullet proof vests without trauma plates.
I'd be interested in see ing you guys test the armor up until the point of failure to see what it would actually take to defeat it. Also, trauma patches (for measuring G forces) on the impact zone would be a cool test of how much injury is occurring through the armor. I know my bow (60lb compound) puts out energy equivalent to a light loading of .22 LR . Even if it didn't penetrate, i'd wager it wouldn't feel nice. Keep up the awesome work!
Hey. Do you have a link to the arrow going through bullet proof vest? My understanding is that higher speed bullets like rifles are the killer there.
Great stuff here! I have two points for you to consider:
First of all, it would be a good idea to spray some bug spray around the target to keep the flies off if you are using blood or meat etc!
Secondly, I am curious about the precise measurements of the rings in your mail. I looked it up on medieval shoppe, and didn't see the model of haubergeon you own as being available anymore. With this being said, the vast majority of mass produced mail shirts I have seen (and the two I own) use an ID of 9mm. In particular, one of my shirts uses washers of that same type. I have seen a few 8mm ID shirts for sale on ebay, but they are much rarer.
5/16" converts out to 7.94mm, so if the rings have an ID of 8mm then that analogy is pretty much correct. But, if the rings are really 9mm as I suspect, then the ID will be off by over 1/32" or 1mm. This is a big deal to me, as having made butted mail years ago I noticed the density and weight are really sensitive to internal diameter. As such, this could affect your tests a good deal. If you can measure the ID of the mail precisely, it would be much appreciated!
-ChainArmor712
Great video, thanks. Out of curiosity, do you think you would see the same result with wooden (ie. heavier) arrow-shafts?
You need to look up my newest video I test 105# Warbow on armour.
Warbow / English Longbow Vs Plate, Chain Maille and Gambesonruclips.net/video/JqkiKjBQe7U/видео.html
Oh and with that bow type and poundage yes the same results most likely.
Stupid question... so how were soldiers even killed then? I assumed that standard mail that most soldiers wore were weak to stabs+arrows, but obviously, it doesn't.
These armors seemed quite invincible then considering he didn't fire the arrow too far from the target (which meant the arrow didn't lose much kinetic energy). How were soldiers even killed then? (Probably a simple answer to this but I'm genuinely curious)
There is always open areas to injure and not every one on the field could afford this form of protection. Maille's weakness is bunt force trauma.
Ah! I forgot that you also tested gambison, which I assumed most soldiers used and the arrows penetrated.
Video games led me to believe standard soldiers wore """"weak""" maille and were just pelted by arrows and thrusts while the generals used plate armor that people cut through anyways haha.
I enjoy video games, but I appreciate the honesty from these videos' tests. Thanks again for the reply!
Heavy longbows and crossbow can also pierce mail, very pointy weapons too. And like thrand said heavy blows to wound and maybe a face thrust to finish
This from the battle of Wisby about the vulnerability of armor of the wounds received before it's revamp into the 1400's.
"There were 456 wounds with visible evidence of cutting weapons, such as swords and axes. There were 126 which were from piercing weapons such as arrows, lances and "morning stars" which were a wooden ball studded with metal spikes and attached to a short handle with a chain and these were used against head and shoulders from above. There were also an undisclosed number of crushing injuries by the mace and war hammer. The latter were also often used to finish off the wounded."
This battle so violent and bloody that it is thought one man was cut in half with a single sword stroke, and plenty of evidence for it. another skull is almost sliced completely in half, and was wearing a coif. almost none had arrow wounds unless it was directly to the face of the open helmets of the time period. But evidence suggests that the head was the favored target.
" "morning stars" which were a wooden ball studded with metal spikes and attached to a short handle with a chain and these were used against head and shoulders from above"
Can i ask the source of this? I thought ball and chain morning stars were a legendary red herring and none had ever been found? This wiki on morning stars only show solid pole weapons: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_star_(weapon) And this from the "flail" page "Despite being very common in fictional works such as cartoons, films and role-playing games as the "quintessential medieval weapon," historical information about this type of flail is somewhat scarce. A few doubt they existed at all due to the number of pieces sitting in museums that turned out to be forgeries, as well as the unrealistic way they are depicted in art.[12][13][14][15][16][17] Archaeologically, however, a type of military flail known as a kisten, with a non-spiked head and a leather, rather than chain, connection to the haft is attested in the 10th century in the territories of the Rus, probably being adopted from the either the Avars or Khazars. This weapon had spread into central and eastern Europe in the 11th - 13th centuries and may be considered an ancestor of the ball-and-chain flail.[18] Waldman (2005) documented several seemingly authentic examples of the ball-and-chain flail from private collections as well as several restored illustrations from German, French, and Czech sources. He states that the scarcity of artifacts and artistic depictions, combined with the almost complete lack of text references, suggests they were relatively rare weapons and never saw widespread use.[19]" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flail_(weapon)#The_ball-and-chain_flail
so even with armor such as Mail, you'll want a hammer or an axe and simply pummel them with sheer momentum.
even a spear trust can hurt you due to the force
"He shoots the viking in the back" and nothing happens. The knights sword might have done something, which begs the question, what does Mat Pat have against vikings? He had both of the other warriors gang up on what he said was the weaker opponent.
with his vast research he did not realise Vikings wore mail and helmets :p
+Gloin79 The funny thing is, there is more archaeological evidence for vikings having helmets in the 11th century than knights, as not a single helmet has been found in france or england from the 11th century.
The yumi draw weight was reduced due to their size and design their main strong suit was accuracy
RIVETED MAILLE WITH A GAMBESON UNDER, NOW WE'RE TALKING
Ja!!!
you should try with bodkin arrowheads, three bladed arrowheads are the worst for penetrating mail as it distributes the impact on three points.
the bodkin arrowhead would widen or open a ring (its designed for that).
So I keep hearing how bows inflicted such grievous casualties in the past. How!? They cant seem to penetrate anything, from plate to mail, to even the cheap gambinson. Can someone explain to me how bows were effective?
You may catch some unprotected even by clothing parts of the body.
Saw you a while ago but didnt sub. Kinda regret it now. Nice video
Thanks and never to late to sub!
ThegnThrand any vids of yours you would recommend i watch? Any that stand out? :)
the weapon test videos are always entertaining
I try I try!
Awesome video but out of random curiousity... why are there so many flys near that armor?
At 3:00 bowman placed his arrow in a wrong way - in such a way feather will interfere the shot badly. At 3:32 the same story. And again and again. Just wonder why?
Ao Kim the fletching is lined up properly why would you assume they are not?
Usually the one with different color should be lined out of the bow. It is really no matter of color, but seems to me that in this video one fletch is always line to the bow. And second arrow without one fletch seems to lose it because of the same usage. If suppose that this is fletching -
A bodkin-style wooden point isn't the same as an actual steel bodkin arrowhead. There's a reason metal arrowheads were used
I would like to see someone shoot a 120lb horse bow with a 650grain arrow with bodkin like arrow head at maille
Hey, wondering if you could point me toward your sources for historical yumi draw weights. I've been looking for English language sources for this and haven't been able to find anything. I'd appreciate it if you could point me in the right direction.
BalbazaktheGreat
There are no direct data to that, some said that it was less than 100lbs, others said it was around 140-150lbs.
However this test was far from being accurate...
I think the truth is in the middle. Yumi bow were powerful bow with a focus on armor piercing, they used to shot heavy arrow with less range and slightly less speed than for example a longbow, but they were powerful at same draw weight for example. Here there is an interesting article:
www.tameshigiri.ca/2014/04/10/the-asian-war-bow-the-physics-of-asian-archery/
Thanks. This sounds right, I just couldn't find any actual figures.
That poor dummy is gonna have a nasty bruise.
Great video. I got into an argument with some guys over the issue of Turkish/Mongolian/Hungarian bows and bodkin point arrows were good against viking era chain mail. I said that it is nigh impossible for the arrow to pierce the mail. Could you do a test video about a reflex bow with 120-140 pound draw weight fireing bodkin point arrows against this mail to prove the point?
There are incidents were an arrow pierced a shield ,mail and padding and killed the wearer
Will you do Viking-shield and Scutum-shield against the Falx weapon? This is for ThegnThrand.
So... based on this data set, gambeson gives a 4+ save on a D6 vs bodkin arrows? ;)
is not it similar to the chainmail from ebay? is that mild steel?
Maybe try a bow like Saint Olaf's archer? I think his name was Adar. A compound bow would also be cool to see. Great channel by the way, I like how you prove your points.
Cast Inlead Thank you!
I'd like to see the difference with a long bow or even a bow with a heavier draw such as a recurve bow or the like
Too many people are influenced by movies and TV shows to believe mail is as weak as cobweb. Being a expensive form of armor that existed for about 2000 years starting in the 5th century BC, and is time consuming to make, it would defy logic that people would continue to make them and pay for them if any random arrow or knife can just go through them. Some mail armor are so well made, the flat portion of the rings fit together to form a plate like surface.
A little bit of doubt:
You said that this bow has around the same draw force as yumi, but:
1. I believe that yumi as a lot larger bow probably has longer arrows, so it can accelerate them a bit more.
2. Yumi is supposed to be used from the horseback and this should add a lot to the final speed (and power) of arrows.
Not sure about point number 2 there...
Yeah, but you don't ride straight towards someone when shooting on horseback, because you want to keep the ennemy at a distance. And because of the greater distance, the arrows lose speed, and that makes the test accurate for a shot at long distance, like in the matpat video. Finaly, historical evidence shows that most arrow injuries where to the head, when wearing an oppen face helmet
You still ride towards them, but with some angle. This still adds to the speed of arrows.
Even if you shoot perpendicularly to the direction you ride this adds to the speed of an arrow.
Yeah, lateral velocity, not very usefull. And again, even if it did add something usefull, you would be at a distance and would lose more energy, so the test is still valid.
Actually Manchu horse archers did ride to extreme close range (as in 8m or less) before shooting. That's one of the perks of having a horse. Samurai's was about 15m.
is it possible to have a heart stop if you get hit by a strong arrow in the chest, no matter if it penetrate or not?
quezcatol Almost certainly not.
quezcatol maybe if is scares you and you have a heart attack
why there are soo much flies?
Hello from Big Thicket, hey bro if you find some old carpet you can double or triple it and use it as a back stop for your arrows. a lot easier on the arrows.ps love the balloch dagger gonna get one. thanks for vids
I find it odd no matter where i looke i cant find the Average historical draw weight that a Samurai whould have ont he feild, i assume it would be lower than the English since the armor they were countering was different...
Cmon, work that bow arm, lets get 120lbs!
Where can you buy that historical chain mail?
Medieval Shoppe Australia but uncertain if he has more of the exact same style this is rivet maille round stock rings and flat stamped rings every other row. They do have some nice all riveted maille.
Great job.Good info.
ok but what about a crossbow?
This would be another good test video just would need a medieval heavy crossbow to do the test properly. A modern would be like the bow have tested it before.
@@Thrand11 also something else i've been thinking. ok it protects from the piercing itself, but what abou the blunt force? how much does it protect the wearer from it?
One thing I notice a lot in the comments around this cluster of medieval war related channels on youtube, is that there seems to be a lot of misconceptions about Japanese military archery, especially that of the Samurai era.
A lot of people seem to think of the Japanese yumi as being similar to the yumi used in modern Kyudo archery. They further consider the usage of these bows to be similar to say, English longbow archers. Combine this with the partially wrong misconceptions about the Samurai being primarily cavalry archers, and a lot of misinterpretation occurs.
For one, Japanese samurai yumi were not all the large 2m+ bows of the type you see in modern Kyudo. Those are descended from 的弓 or target bows for the Heian era 本弓 Honkyu, or the basic bow. They are essentially, the descendants of training bows. Then you have the 半弓 or half bow, which is about 2/3 the length of the Honkyu, and the 本半弓 which is about half the length of the Honkyu. These bows each use arrows of different lengths and weights for different purposes. The long bows are believed to be the cavalry bows, while the 'half bows' were infantry bows. Therefore, the Kyudo image of a grounded man using the 2m+ bows, is likely not historically accurate to actual military use of such bows.
In actuality, infantry archers likely used the half bows, probably around 5.5' long. Japanese bows, were not built for range. It is unlikely that they were used in the sort of long range 'aim at the sky and rain arrows down' tactics popularized in western cinema. They were however, said to be pretty good for accuracy and penetration at closer ranges. Unlike the stereotypical western Longbows, which were predominantly selfbows, Japanese bows were composite recurve bows. They used heavy arrows for punch and penetration at shorter ranges. Military bows weren't strung until battle preparations, and could take two or three men to string.
Another misconception is that Samurai always fought against Samurai. That's not entirely true. Unlike something like the Roman Legion, Japanese warlords didn't usually have a standing army. When they went to war, they recruited or conscripted a large portion of their armies.
Further, Samurai = Cavalry, was in the early days of Samurai. They eventually gravitated away from that, and went to being infantry archers and heavy cavalry. Even in the early days, when Samurai were primarily cavalry archers, they didn't often go out to fight cavalry archer vs cavalry archer. Cavalry archers weren't long range troops. It would be more of a case of infantry lines of conscripts armed with polearms and half bows, holding the line behind a wall of pavise shields, (commanded by samurai), while cavalry archers sallied out from behind, took shots over the enemy line, and retreated back behind their lines. The cavalry needed the longer bows to outrange the half bows the infantry would use to repel the cavalry, while the infantry archers needed the punch to take down horse at flat trajectories. Once they got the archer off his mount, they could sally out from their lines and crowd him with polearms.
Arrow flight wasn't straight most of the time. Which I think accounted for the poor penetration and bouncing off the padding.
The arrows do not have the mass of spears a Thrown spear can possibly go through but the arrows bouncing had nothing to do with that the maille can not be pierced by that light of projectile traveling at that speed. It would take a higher pound bow to do so if possible. The bounce is from gel which acts like the belly or flesh and the padding not just one. the reason the arrow kicks up is not bad trajectory its the quick stop due not being able to pierce the maille and padding. You see this effect too when hitting a thin shield that can not be pierced due to density. Maille is not easily pierced by arrows even the Japanese used Kusari stand alone and sealed rings. The idea maille is easily pierced comes from testing modern butted maille. Even gambeson or multiple layers of cloth and padding is hard for arrows to pierce. The more giver the harder to cut the maille. Breaking the rings is almost impossible with the giver they will football when hit if not cut. Bodkins are used to slip between rings if possible due to ring size. A very high pound bow can pierce is but also depends on amount and type of gambeson under it and gauge of maille.
Do you mean solid mail as in the round rings are (or would have been) forge welded?
Hanaar Steelhand solid rings were usually stamped out of small plates. It's a lot less time consuming work to hammer out a plate and stamp rings out of it than to make round wire rings and rivet them.
Also, that material is way too thin for forge welding to my experience as a semi-trained hobby-level blacksmith.
SonsOfLorgar how was that stamping done?
That's true. I'm a blacksmith too, which is why i try and figure out how this stuff is done historically.
I sadly don't know how the stampings were actually done, I expect it could have been done similiarily to how they struck coins?
SonsOfLorgar maybe a circular chisel type thingand a punch for the middle
Hanaar Steelhand yeah, and probably a small anvil with a hole of the same size as the punch
The two issues that I see are that you appear short draw the bow compared to what a historical archer would have done (modern draw is shorter to get better accuracy, whereas historically they drew closer to thirty inches rather than the modern average of twenty-eight) and you appear to use arrows that are too light. The latter can make a difference of something like 10-15% efficiency (which can give an increase of 20% or so kinetic energy because of the way the math works out), and a longer power stroke can increase the energy still further. I would suggest that, if you want a more historically accurate test, get arrows that are about 30-32" and 700+ grains, draw to the back of your jaw bone, and try that. Also, it's worth noting that 70# is about the lowest draw weight that the Norse of that period would consider useful in war. Many of their bows were considerably more powerful than that.
Hail Thrand, just recently started watching your vids and already love ones like this. I was wondering, because me and a friend are discussing the age old argument of Japanese warfare vs. European warfare, if you plan on getting and testing historical Japanese weapons like the yumi and kenobo against European armor.
We have a video testing full Japanese Yoroi and can not see why we can not test European armor against such weapons the Kanabo is just a club or two handed mace in Europe. The yumi is just a spear but spears work on European armor so do huge mauls and maces why both cultures used them. All though they were more common in Europe because of superior armor.
ThegnThrand The yumi is a spear? I thought it was a bow, guess me and my friend where both wrong on that. I was mostly curious about the practicality of the Kanabo vs European maces.
I miss the old intro with the guitar and the mind wall.
this guy needs more subs
i thing it will be interesting try it again with historicly acurate arrows. i thing there could be differences , wood arrow with steel point , who knows maybe heavy arrow make more damage
An arrow isn't really lethal against mail (big surprise, armor works!) but I bet getting hit would really hurt. Gives credence to the use of archers in close quarters instead of just artillery.
What is the type of the steel?
Mild steel which is a good substitute for wrought iron they preform about the same.
Very good video and accurate mail armour
How heavy were your arrows? I feel like a light glasfiber arrow might be easier to stop.
PS: Cheers for actually testing this yourself.
Ur using carbon fiber arrows with modern heads designed for Target shootingWar arrows are heavy arrows with a lot of momentum and energy for penetrationThe arrows are not spined for heavy draw weightsAnd Dont forget to shoot with an anchor point
i was shocked at chain mail not being pierced with an arrow, since i thought that its weakness a piercing weapons, and blunt weapons. but then again spears and straight swords would probably do alot to the chain. this is just observing. i like the test. so with all the padding that you would traditionally have with the chain over it seems you would have ample protection against bows of that nature and such.
correct me if im wrong but isnt chain also good against slashing weapons as well?
keep up the great work thrand
shadowcrone He actually did some tests with rivited mail and blades. It's in "stop using butted mail" vid, or whatever the title was. And mail won. Hell, I even saw him throw javelins at it! still a win!
RPG games' armor stats are pure bullshit.
this was not for rpg stats. was on another discussion. it was partly from deadliest warrior katana vs chain mail. where i first heard that chain was good against slashing weapons
Chain in basically 100% immune to slashing damage. It's very strong against piercing as you can see though not immune. It's real weakness is impact weapons like maces which it offers virtually no protection against but that's why you'd wear something like gambeson underneath.
Do however realise that chainmail is made to negate slashing, and protects the user. However the one thing that could prove fatal to a man who wore a byrnie would be not to be cut, but rather to be crushed. "How do you figure?" you ask, well!
Blunt force trauma can occur even if you swing with a sharp weapon at your enemy. Say if you swing an axe at a man's chest and ribcage, a solid and hard area, the axe may not cut through the chain but with a hard enough swing you may break a rib or two which will hinder his abilities even further. Then you keep swinging at him, effectively breaking his bones as you go about your day.
Einherjar Skadisson and the second axe hit to a weakened rib cage or broken rib is extremely likely to push a rib that punctures a lung and then he's one for the valkyries...
I like this test; however, I wonder if arrow weight might make a difference? You're using light, modern arrows, and didn't the more well-equipped medieval warriors use relatively heavy, sturdy arrows?
FrogmortonHotchkiss
He didn't use a war Yumi, nor the technique used to shot a Yumi, neither a japanese arrow which were similar to the european in weight and used modern steel rings, and then claim that a Yumi couldn't pierce a mail shirt.
Is like doing a test with a butted cheap iron rings and no padding and then claim that it was shit.
*This Is not experimental archeology, just straight and plain misinformations*.
Everytime somebody get butthurted because their historical warriors get evalueted in a different way they didn't like, they always have to do this kind of bashing videos on the samurai. 10/10
The only one that seems butthurt is you. GTF over it.
vandala9
What a mature comment, the problem here is that the things I've written are true.
I dont think you are going to get around the "modern steel" issue because no one is using antique mail to test and it would probably be corroded anyway if they did. So analogues are going to be necessary. The material used in this video is mild steel not hardened steel and seems to be a comparable material. Its also a fairly light (and loose) mail shirt compared to a lot of historical mail. With no gambeson. I dont think this is some OP mail shirt.
Similarly, using a war yumi replica would be great but the main issue is how fast it shoots the arrow. are you implying that the 11th century yumi was much more powerful? I havent heard any truly stupendous figures though its not an area i know much about. Do you think "the technique" you mentioned would make it faster somehow? Enough to penetrate mail?
One thing i do agree on is the arrow. I would like to see a heavier arrow and a metal pointed arrowhead - though whether that was historical I dont know. I only did a quick wiki but this doesnt seem too promising: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Japanese_Yajiri_or_Yanone.JPG
Indeed. If you're wrong while behaving right, you're right. If you're right while behaving wrong, you're wrong. Let's keep it civilised.
this chainmail is better, still a little bit big, but this is better.(the recommended size is 15/64 inches)
even though there was no penetration, surely there would be some amount of internal hemorrhaging especially with a heavier bow and more historical arrow? Even if there's not, I'll bet even those modern arrows would take the wind out of your sails if you were hit with multiple shots.
Marko TheChief true an all mighty thump as Mike Loades calls it.
While i cant say ive ever been hit with an arrow, surely internal haemorrhaging is unlikely from an arrow if you are wearing mail and padding? Theres not much weight to the arrow and it doesnt pierce. The force otherwise wasnt enough to knock over the dummy. I dont know how sturdy that dummy is but you could probably kick it over. A kick wouldnt give you internal bleeding most of the time.
Dont know for sure, just thinking out loud.
If you shoot someone with a gun they don't get knocked over. But if you shoot someone wearing a bullet-proof vest they often get a huge punch that leaves terrible bruises. They are not equivalent entirely but I am sure an arrow delivers a similar punch
Can you try this with a stronger bow? Say 110 to 130 lbs?
Why don't you shoot under arm...it is lots faster when learned?
So what is the weight of that arrow and the velocity? The kinetic energy is the determining factor here besides the shape of the arrowhead. If that's a 18 to 22 gram arrow at, let's say, 60 m/s your only at 32 to 40 joule. That's really not much, especially when we know warbows and heavy livery arrows at around 64 gram and up, will strike a target with 100 to 160 joule, point blank, depending on the draw weight of the bow.
Another thing we have to take into consideration is the quality of the steel the mail shirt is made of. Most mail would be low carbon steel or wrought iron with various degrees of slag inclusions. Modern steel are alloys and have cobalt and other materials to alter its performance. And it's almost slag free and with an exact carbon content. Without exact data on the material at hand here, we can't really say much and draw any meaningful conclusions.
PolluxVarangir kinetic energy is directly proportional to the square of velocity and as heavier things require more force to accelerate than lighter things, the difference in kinetic energy between a heavy but slow projectile and light but fast projectile probably isn't that big. However, momentum is entirely different thing. We know for a fact that war arrows very hefty and fairly heavy as they had to tolerate the impacts and mass also helped to stabilize the arrow against wind etc. I'm just guessing Thrand knows this but he just didn't have proper arrows at hand for obvious reasons.
A 75 lbs bow with a 60 gram arrow should give something like 50 to 74 joule. Matheus Bane reached 74 joule with his 75 lbs bow and 60 gram arrows, but that was a modern laminate longbow. A 75 lbs yew bow will probably shoot arrows at around 60 joules, point blank.
The difference is not insignificant. Simon Stanley did som tests with a 150 lbs yew bow. It's in the Great Warbow by Strickland and Hardy.
He tested arrows of different weights. The lightest was 53.6 gram and the heaviest 95.9 gram.
The heavy arrow made it to 53 m/s and the lightest arrow made it to 64.3 m/s.
The initial kinetic energy of the heavy arrow was 134.69 joule and the lightest arrow 110.8 joule.
That's an increase of 21 % from the light to the heavy, and that's not insignificant. However, at max distance the increase was 40 %!
In other words, 64.1 joule for the lighter arrow and 89.9 joule for the heavy arrow.
I would like to sometime see a test like this done with both histircaly rivited maille AND the same test with butted mail
To show of the difference. As i seen so many tests on internet where people use modern cheap butted maille for tests, shooting arrow true it, cutting it and so on.
And i don't think everyone. well i even think that most people ingeneral have no idea how big of a difference it is between butted mail and historical maille.
There is lots of people out there that do believe that those tests preformed on butted mail is actually valid. as they either don't even know historical european maille was rivited or if they do know they don't think the different is significant. That if an arrow can go through butted crap mail it would be proof that it also could go through rivited maille
you need a 180 pound war bow
I used to have a bow almost exactly like that.
No hail?
Roger Haglund He was eager to disprove this myth.
Holding the nipple just to not be demonetized. Oh youtube, oh youtube....
Something I should point out. Ballistic gel is TERRIBLE for modelling arrows. An arrow that will go all the way through a massive hog or deer, will go about two inches into ballistic gel. You need to shoot the arrows into just the gel, if you want to have any comparison. It seems like your gel was a thinner mix than most people use, so the arrows were more effective.
Excellent work Thrand. Been waiting for this for ages and it came at the perfect time just as there has been a shitstorm with these GameTheory guys who think arrows beat everything.
LMcAwesome Thanks and share the video to combat the false information.
PLEASE do something about those flies.
In war there where used warbows which are 120pounds 70 pounds from so small distance dont even reach they max velocity and what are you thinking 70 pound bow mostly there are used for hunting not like 120 pound bows who are war bows
Arrows do not increase velocity over distance. The stabilize but speed decreases over distance. Point blank is maximum force .
Ballistic gelatin is way more elastic than human flesh. It is good for testing gun shots but too strong for testing low velocity projectiles. Try stabbing a ballistic gel with a dagger and you will find it very difficult to stab in.
I thrust through it with blades and daggers all the time. It works perfectly for arrows or thrown blades.
It depends on type of ballistic gel if you mean traditional gel 10% gel is quite weak and 20% can be tough but the only gel I have seen that is as you discribe that is not very realistic is the synthetic stuff made of plastic or really hight concentrations 20% plus for rifle testing. The synthetic gel like Skall uses seems way tougher than real 20% ballistic gel that is why I use real gelatin plus I have no reason to use synthetic plastic versions I am not vegan.
Somehow, the infamous Lars Andersen managed to penetrate 'riveted' chainmail with his low poundage bow. I doubt the chainmail he is shooting at is decent quality riveted chainmail.
ruclips.net/video/2zGnxeSbb3g/видео.html
3:42-3:45
Try using a 100 lb Longbow with a traditional arrow point.
the string of the bow was pulled to short:)
No it was not. I pulled to full draw on every release.