The difference in performance is positively amazing, it's almost as if the butted mail is doing nothing where as the riveted or soldered offers such significant protection. Great stuff guys!
+X Infinity Because many people don't see the difference between a fun video and a fact video. They see something on the internet (without thinking for themselfs at all) and believe, that it is a fact...
ThegnThrand I totally agree :) In June I will get my holidays (I'm a school teacher) so I'll have lots of free time this summer and we should definitely do that :3
Ahh, but his butted mail was not this stuff. The difference is how tightly you make the butts. In Lindybeige videos, he shows you how to make tight links which click-together and require some force to come to together. Modern Repro Chain tends to be just for show with actual gaps in the links which are barely holding the shirt together. This video is as much an assault on the crappy History Channel shows which keep using cheap reproduction armor for "tests" and claim to show how good or bad stuff was. Also, Butted mail is much rarer than riveted mail no matter what. Lindybeige's main complaint is people arguing it was not done at all.
honestly these tests make me question the "mail is weak against thrusting attack" nonsense I think they reason they went to plate was because they where tired of getting shattered ribs.
+Nick Graham Even so, good steel plate armor of the day could protect from longbow shots in all but the thinnest areas, from all but very short range. However, low-quality iron plate, which was still common at the time, could be penetrated at well over 200 yards.
I like to assume that people today are about as smart as people were 1000 years ago. Collectively we are smarter in some ways, but people feel the same way about technology today as they did in the past. If it doesn't work, people don't use it. People wore armor because it worked, people used the weapons they did because they worked, assuming "people" were dumb or used technology that didn't work for it's intended purpose, for hundreds of years at a time is just arrogance.
I highly doubt we are collectively smarter. Civilization actually has a dysgenic effect by reducing selection pressure on populations. Today dumber and weaker people can survive much more easily, so this counters whatever effect more nutrition or whatnot might have. The world average IQ is actually dropping fairly fast, simply because the fastest growing populations are currently the ones with lower IQs.
Some dude invents butted mail thousands of years ago and it just faded into the history books for being innefective- Oh wait we still know how to fucking make it, and hang on, maybe it was actually used before thousands of years in which the "useless" information had to die. I don't mind the chainail making side of youtube but the speculatuve use side is absolute garbage. People fucking wear butted mail. It works. I still wear it in 2018. I can shit out knife, sword and electrical attacks like nothing. I hard tool my rings, I use heavy gauge wire and I'm not a garbage craftsman. I mean these mother fuckers are actually using 16 bage steel because their baby hands can't fucking handle real butted mail, which does work, but not against three hundred psi stabbing blows to four fucking rings. I'd like to make this make sense to these people but I can't, weak ass wire equals weak ass chainmail. Poor craftsmanship equals giant ass gaps in your rings and weak spots. Use your fucking pliers and no thinner than 14 gage and you won't be able to make a shit speculative video like this you assholes. 16 Gage? Really? A length of that wire can be torn apart HORIZONTALLY BY HAND. Use fucking yarn if you want this strength, do you not understand that steel loses thousands of times it's strength every millimeter you strip from the width? Fuck. Fuck you people. Make 1sqft butted mail on video for me and your opinion might be considered.
@@migkillerphantom For anyone reading today, this nonsense is called racialism or 'racial science', and it has been disproven and it's proponents discredited. Essentially, racism dressed up.
It's amazing that real, proper armor works! What really does amaze me is how often and how laughably wrong documentaries get these types of things, even with the help of "experts".
+kokofan50 Or that scene in The Return of the King where an orc shoots clean through the chest plate of a Minas Tirith soldier. That is one thing that is great about this channel, they actually test these things and distinguish fact from fiction with hard evidence!
+kokofan50 You'll find that they leave out a lot of information on places like the History Channel, and not just when it comes to weapons. Have a good day.
"I wanna do a test of kevlar against handguns, but since I don't feel like going through the trouble of getting real kevlar would using a different type of fabric like cotton be good enough?" -Basically people who use butted mail for armor tests.
Except that there are many documented experiments with cotton, and other fabrics and types of materials, against handguns, fragmentation and stabbing weaapons. Kevlar was invented in 1965, to help reinforce car tyres and hoses etc, not for body armour. It didn't become widely available until much later. What do you think they used in the centuries before Kevlar? Nylon, Silk, Cotton, Hemp, linen, wool, cellulose and glass fibre, to mention just a few.
It's so nice to see tests done with properly made mail armor. Just got finished watching forged in fire on TV, and their lousy test on butted mail. Liked the video, great work.
These TV have no excuse for using butted mail when they have supposed experts to advise them. I have to conclude then that they are being dishonest for some reason, making armor seem far less effective than it actually was. I don't know why they would do that though.
ThegnThrand I'm honored to have somebody with such an amazing channel as a subscriber :D I don't really know the motive either. I know that there are many people who have this idea firmly in their heads that people in the past were complete fools and that we are so much smarter today. Armor seems to really take the brunt of this attitude, with knights often being portrayed of lumbering idiots who can barely move and who can't get up if they fall down - like in TH White's "Once and Future King." Maybe there is some anti-European bias involved, since heavy armor is sometimes perceived as being uniquely western as opposed to lightly armored eastern armies. Which isn't necessarily even true about the relative armor worn by different cultures in history, but it still might tie into those biases.
in fairness, in the once and future king, they had the 2 comic relief characters jousting and they were obviously quite concussed or tired when they ran past each other and hit trees.
Its always a problem for me when they use butted and not riveted mail in those shows, I had a conversation about that with my dad recently. He questioned why they ever used it in the first place if it was so time consuming and expensive to make and then just fell apart like that. The obvious answer is they didn't! The people that make those shows pay no attention to the historical advisers they hire and just do whatever they like. They don't even set up the mail in a realistic way like you guys do, with the padding and all, our ancestors weren't stupid, they wouldn't have gone through the trouble of manufacturing it if it didn't work.
Incredible the way riveted mail takes an axe blow without damage. And that is on a solid surface.......I thought the padding was absorbing the blow on the previous test. Excellent research work.
thank you! i am so tired of seeing people say that mail was really weak because their cheap butted mail wasn't all that strong and they, for some reason, think that what they have is accurate.
That did make me laugh the way it just bounces off, although it didn't break the armor if someone was wearing it would be going through a very emotional event.
I know. Freaking idiots. The Japanese weren't stupid, but their warfare was a bunch of peasants in almost no armor at all with crude spears intermixed with groups of leather armored opponents and the elite samurai who wore mostly leather armor. Curved swords, especially katanas, were made to slash through opponents who were lightly armored or unarmored. They didn't have to deal with quality shields, or even metalic armor most of the time. Samurai with katanas were excellent killers in the context of their culture and conditions. They would have been slaughtered by Europeans, Arabs, Persians, or Mongols.
+ThegnThrand After observing how strong a chainmail may be; now I am in doubt if a dagger or sword could really penetrate the chainmail between the gaps of a fullplate armour
There are weapons with very fine points that can slip through chainmail, though it is, of course, not guaranteed. Daggers are extremely effective at getting through armor against opponents whose mobility has been compromised. Using a sword in the normal fasion is not very effective at all against plate, however, there are two methods to compensate. One is called "half-swording" where you hold the handle of the sword in one hand and pinch the blade close to the tip to turn your sword into a makeshift dagger without having to drop your sword. The other technique involves holding the blade with both hands and striking with the crossguard, making a hammer (which is very effective against armor). To see these techniques demonstrated, you might check out Skallagrim, who describes and demobstrates both techniques well. Also, holding the blade of a sword is actually not as crazy as it sounds
Some Japanese mails were split ring , still kinda like butted but it has to unwind instead of just opening and giving way , it’s pretty strong, especially when used in smaller links like they like to do, but u don’t see much coverage of it
I love the energy in your videos. With that kind of energy, your historical knowledge, and the unique hands-on style of your tests I could really see you guys having your own tv show! History Channel is missing a great opportunity shield brothers!
+ThegnThrand They might not want to have someone on the channel that renders all of their other content obsolete. Because once you start pulling the threads, most history documentaries start to fall apart on a technical level.
+Pieter Batenburg Well they were historically designed to bend when they hit something like a shield so that they couldn't be thrown back at their former owners, or at least that's my understanding.
+Pieter Batenburg I thought the same at first, but actually I think the head is a bit askew, and gives the appearance of flex as it spins and wobbles. Especially when you consider how far forward he holds it and how thick it is, flex doesn't seem likely. My understanding is an arrow flexes largely because it's pushed from the back against the inertia of the head, and is thin.
I think the bending in the shield explanation is wrong, especially after seeing the pilum go through the shield and the (effectively) unarmored target behind it. It looks like the Romans wanted to maximize momentum per cross sectional area so that it had a good chance of going through the shields and actually killing someone. A similar design philosophy went into late empire plumbata, which were basically lawn darts weighted with Pb.
Rabbit on Da Moon That's not impossible, nor even improbable, but I don't know if I buy it completely. It certainly has logic to it, but remember that the range at which most of these would be thrown would be much greater than what Thrand shows here, and as such you could really only hope to disable the enemy's shield, or at least make it very unwieldy. Certainly if you could kill them outright, that would be preferable, but it seems that most of the time this was not something which could be guaranteed. I have also heard, from time to time, that they would carry two versions, one lighter one for longer ranges and a second, heavier one for closer ranges (the idea being that the lights are thrown first, and then the heavies are launched when the enemy formation has come closer), so it's entirely possible that both philosophies were in use. One pilum could have been meant to bend inside the target to hinder shields and prevent them being thrown back, and the second could have been meant for sheer penetration, since the risk of them being thrown back at such close ranges is slime to nothing.
I think another important thing to note is that riveted maille does not always mean historical though. There's a lot of riveted maille out there available on the market to purchase that isn't that much better than butted mail, apart from the fact that it can hold itself under its own weight. Often the rivet holes aren't made with a drift, but instead with an awl, which weakens the structure and isn't historical. The rivets themselves are sometimes not the proper shape, thereby weakening the armour. Rivets are often not set properly, and the holes made for them aren't centered either. There's also the issue that the links on a fair amount of maille on the market are very rough cut, tearing up the aketon underneath, which affects the defense of it as well. Weave is also important as it the gauge. A lot of the products that are riveted have too loose a weave, or the gauge of the rings is too wide. Then there's the fact that for the most part historical maille was made with wrought iron, compared to hardened steel. So a strike on a modern reproduction made with hardened steel that is penetrated and the ring is split at the rivet point most likely won't have that happen on a properly made cuirass using wrought iron. So I think what should be said is, stop using modern butted chainmail for historical maille testing, but also to stop using modern riveted chainmail that's not made properly for testing as well (and there's a LOT of it out there. The historically accurate stuff is quite expensive because of the time involved in the research and making it properly, and the people making it are usually single person operations, so to get a piece involves waiting). I'd be willing to say something like 85% of all commercially available maille on the market is completely unsuitable for historical testing.
***** Medieval shoppe has some but as far as I know they have sold out and looking for a new source of better maille at the moment. The previous supplier no longer suppliers large quantities and is unable to fill orders for them on time.
***** Butted over proper gambeson as you saw with 70lbs bow we miss judged draw weight checking it later to find actual draw weight stopped the bodkin arrow of a modern arrow. We tested some butted maille with proper gambeson on head and it did well too against medium strength cuts and thrust. Not saying its historically used in Europe but over multiple layers of cloth and padding it could save your life though. Chain Maille Coif with Gambeson on Gel Head Tested with Viking Sword! ruclips.net/video/_vYJtQnjXfA/видео.html
***** Yes if you use butted maille in SCA fighting or battle of the nations style combat it with come apart much like the coif did I made in the beginning of the video with strong cut or blow. Good padding helps prevent this but it will still happen. But good news is will stop first cut then come apart unless a thrust spreads it and makes it through multiple layers of cloth which is still very difficult after hitting the maille even if butted on first attempt.
+FattyMcEaty According to the folks over at myarmoury.com the mail sold at GDFB.co.uk is of reasonable quality and is about as period accurate as you can get for a cheap price. I recommend getting the 6mm ID mail, since that's closer in diameter to historical mail. If you want a reasonably priced, high quality gambeson to go with it, www.steel-mastery.com/ has a few choices that can be customised pretty heavily.
Just to point out... Butted mail WAS used historically ONLY in Japan. Never in Europe. It's effectiveness, or lack there of, is shown pretty well though.
There's a few cases of butted mail in africa as cheap repairs, a few Philippines mail an plate armours used it too, some decorative bits and one case of split ring mail from Europe being made for Khedivate of Egypt en mass in 1883 by his Zirkhagi, "Iron Men".
@@giadac.1647 The piece found in the Horný Jatov burial Slovakia is one of if not likely the oldest surviving example of chain mail. Many Roman scholars/historians claim the Celts invented it. It's riveted mail. It's quite likely the first ever Celtic mail really was butted. But therer are no (uncovered) surviving examples. Which means either they moved very quickly to riveting their mail, and/or likely scrapped their butted mail very quickly.
Excellent video, all the historical martial arts channels should create a kickstarter to create a historically accurate show to put deadliest warrior in the dirt. It would be glorious.
I'd wondered about this. Tempering would also make a huge difference, usually modern steel is sold untempered so that its easier to cut and bend in production.
I remember thinking the same thing when I saw that program. Good job guys holding the tv "experts" accountable. This channel counts as expert quality subject material the the arms and armor they cover.
Thank you for making this. I've just got into making butted mail for fun but I didn't realise the difference was quite so pronounced, and this video has convinced me to try and work towards eventually making riveted.
You are a true expert in historical and with armor you did your research and not just buy cheap crap and play expert like most other shows and people, Great stuff man thanks for the true history lesson i hope the wannabe professionals see your video's and learn something. Have good one and keep up the great work.
I have noticed this myself. I have worked a little with butted mail, sometimes winding and cutting the rings myself, and I have noticed the mail actually pulling itself apart under its own weight. It is however much more time consuming to make riveted mail. Butted only for decorative pieces.
@@Thrand11 Sure, but that is made differently from European chain maille, and I can only assume it did do its job there. Butted maille with European techniques however is a recipe for disaster if you want it to protect you against anything.
Out of curiosity, what kind of material were you using? I've been making butted costume mail with 14 gauge steel (I buy electric fence wire from the farm store and strip the galvanizing with acid) for quite some time now, and it's held up just fine under light use. I mean, I'd never wear it into combat, but it has no trouble at all supporting its own weight, and wearing it around a ren faire for a day doesn't cause any damage to it. I think it helps that it has some springiness to it. If you push the cut ends past each other and then pull them apart as you close the ring, they hold themselves together pretty tightly. Softer (or thinner) metals aren't as good at that.
Yes! Thank you! I have been wanting to see a video like this for a long time. It pisses me off that every show uses butted maile. Thumbs up to you kind sir.
I made up a test square years ago: rings with scarfed ends, brazed together. That square foot took in excess of thirty hours to make! Most of the time was eaten up by the brazing. Tough as hell! A .22 lr fired into it did not break any links, but some lead spattered its way through.
Great video, love your channel. You guys need to make a video Stop using 16 Gauge theatrical Breastplates to shoot with modern guns, black powder firearms, bolts and arrows. I'd like to see a video showing the difference between 16 gauge breastplates and replicas of Musketeer age breastplates made with the proper steel and proper steel thickness.
Was your maile silver soldered when it was originally manufactured or did you "fix" some butted maile? I've been wondering for a little while now on how practical it would be to spot weld some butted mail to make better.
Very interesting video. Can you create video showing how to create the various styles of mail you were mentioning? I'm brand new to crafting chainmail and am trying to get as much information as I can.
+actingamer101 Indeed, butted maille is amazing for the looks when you don't have the means to buy or make a riveted maille (in my case, can't import it due country's policies, and I live in an apartment), but it's good to know and realize the actual uses of it.
There are many examples of historical butted mail, especially from asia. There are examples of Japanese butted mail from the edo period. There are examples of Viking butted mail, and there are a few, although admittedly not many, examples of butted mail used in medieval Europe. To say butted mail was never used historically is just wrong. Another thing to consider is that most of the museum examples of mail (although not all) are riveted. There are many reasons for this, riveted mail was much more widespread in Europe than butted mail, but also, riveted mail probably lasts longer than butted mail. If you imagine keeping mail for years on end, and it passes down through your family, of course the riveted stuff is going to survive longer. Another minor problem I have with your video, which is a problem you seem to share with the "Deadliest Warrior", you tell us very little about the steel of the butted mail. Is it heat treated? How has it been heat treated? What type of steel is it? How thick is the steel you are testing? How wide is the internal diameter of the rings? All of these factors affect the strength of butted and riveted mail.
I think you're probably correct, but the overlap is slight and wouldn't add anything majorly significant to the strength of the chainmail, I don't think it overlaps by a tonne so maybe over the whole shirt it'll add some extra protection, but I don't know that it's enough to make any realistic difference.
Glad you done this video. This is something that has bugged me a LOT. I dont know how many videos i have seen on youtube. and damn even some tv programs and shows that show chainmaille. usally some kind of weapon again maille. often to show how effective the weapon is. or to show that chainmaille was crap. Then using buttet chainmail. Very common on bow fanatics, that want to show how effective the bow was. they place some cheap butted mail at a target, shoot trough it and goes "Yeah look at this, chainmail would have been useless against bows and arrows"
as someone who used butted mail in my armor, yes, I get holes, but not anything like you managed to open up with the sword strike. maybe a ring or two pop open. Maybe my mail is of better quality, thicker rings, but I've taken quite a few sword strikes, since all I wear is a light gambeson, with a butted mail hauberk over the top and a light leather cover over that, and I participate in live steel combat. of course, mail is completely ineffective against thrusts, mail wasn't intended to protect against the thrust or other penetrative attacks, it was meant for the cut and slash. plate armor is for penetrative protection. yes, I'd prefer to have riveted mail, but the butted works just fine in practical use.
A problem with the closed soldered ring is if it needs to be replaced but you could just cut it I suppose or undo the solder, otherwise the riveted is probably easier to fix if broken
I did a riveted vs budded and the budded just isn’t locked in enough, it flings open and all the rings go flying, then the riveted is so flexible, and locked in where it just stays right intact, definitely recommend riveted
Awesome video!!! It was the armor's ability to prevent piercing damage that led to the use of armor but the impact of the weapons. ( you mentioning this) deadliest warrior was a joke when it came to its testing methods. Much rather see your takes on who would prevail in death matches.
Nice video guys. Interesting results. Would love to see the armour tested with a full strength bow. 60 pound bow is quite light. Traditional Long Bows were estimated at 90 -110 pounds. May make a difference. Arrow weight should also be taken into consideration. Also test a modern 85 pound compound bow just to compare modern vs ancient tech.
Great job on this video guys. It would have been better to have proof tested the weapons first to show they are sharpened and battle ready. But still, much appreciation for all your efforts. *thumbs up*
Really good stuff as usual. I really enjoy your channel. I have one question if you don't mind: The image at 1:18 looks like a very nice piece, do you know where this is from and if there are more images and information of this piece of armour?
Thank you gentlemen! Subscribed. Just enough words to explain the well presented action. How it has to be done. So much massive amount of BS told about the mail armour. Keep going! The rest of you(tubers) take an example. Stay humble and reduce the talking. Cheers
kritonas dionysiou Yeah, when you imagine the dozens / hundreds of hours it takes to rivet the hundreds of rings by hand, and you are paying for skilled labor it become quite expensive.
@@Thrand11 I want to ask something about your Scottish claymore. The handle looks a little oddly shaped. I'm not sure how it feels to hold a spiral handle like that. Is it comfortable to hold? Doesn't it feel weird?
you can tell that there aren't as many museums of ancients artefacts in America as we have here in England. Both butted AND riveted mail has been used by various people over various times. Yes riveted is generally superior, but it is not the ONLY historically accurate armour. I recommend the channel "lindybeige" , a British university lecturer who has done actual, extensive research on historical armour from around the world, and gives excellent and entertaining information on the subject.
Informative video--I enjoyed it. Hope to see tests on riveted mail too. Yeah, after watching a lot of these 'serious' shows over the years, the mail always seemed to be defeated easily and it left me with a poor impression of it as a type of armor. And yet it was worn for over a thousand years by men who could afford it. And I kept thinking that something that is fairly useless that is expensive and labor intensive to make wouldn't have stuck around for that long if it was really that poor at defending against hand and missile weapons. I always suspected that butted mail had to be inferior because if it weren't, why would you go through the hassle of making tiny rivets, drilling holes, etc. Very laborious work. Plus, when they used butted mail in their shows, they usually had it flat up against a hard unyielding surface - absolutely no give - yet a man will tend to recoil when struck, robbing a blow of some energy, plus the tissue under the mail will give some too. Thanks for the vid.
Great video. I'm very interested in the issue of historical Armour. I want to begin a collection, but an accurate one. ¿From where place in the internet would you to recomend buy a good quality riveted mail?I have too curiosity about materials and the improvements wich modern one s can add to old Armour technology. Is there a functional riveted mail of a material wich weight less than iron but it is more resistant? Thank you for your video's.
I've heard that there's a way in making butted mail functional, mainly by using two gambesons and having the mail between the two padded gambesons, could you guys try this in order to see if it would work or not.
Have you considered making a comparison video between historical mail and a modern stab proof vest? I think it would be interesting to see what NIJ rating they would have.
I remember in an episode of Deadliest Warriors they thrusted with a 14th century sword in a chain mail: It got straight trough and, even before being in contact with this community, I knew there was something wrong about it, why else would have they used it otherwise, if a single chop or thrust can cause heavy damage to a thing that took several weeks at making it in that time? Going in battle with what they called "historical" on that program is just like getting all your teeth removed, replacing them in solid gold and then smashing your mouth with a hammer.
I have learned a lot about ancient Roman armor. I have never read anything indicating that Romans used butted mail. Kind of the opposite, that mail making fell out of favor when the time it took to rivet the stuff was no longer as available after the collapse of the Imperial economy.
I love the intro, and I love this video! A wonderful message. Have you guys been following KnyghtErrant? You seem to have done a couple videos supporting the points made in his recently. This isn't a bad thing, it's really nice to see content expanding off of other content! Only suggestion. Perhaps make an image similar to your opening / backdrop to display text / annotations, instead of a generic background with foreground text. I know that it's an investment; but - it's a one-time investment that'll help polish up your videos! Love the work you guys do, and I hope other people do too!
Speaking of history. I do like history, but i dont find it requirement to know everything accurately like times and dates etc. I have watched alot of history programs to learn what happened and how. For me knowing roughly when, where and how something happened is enough. I dont need to know every little detail. Saying all that, looking at these videos makes me feel angry about mainstream educational programs!! Because i feel i have been lied in all of them! Seeing how far from truth those mainstream ''teachers'' are, im inclined to disbelieve anything that comes out of their mouth! I guess i have to thank you guys for opening my eyes in that matter. Bottom line is, you cant trust what they show you in educational documentaries cause they are just horse shit!
I'm starting to wonder if keyrings could be made into somewhat effective chainmail that would offer the cheapness and ease of manufacture of butted mail with the protective value of something more solid. I'm not sure how mass produced they are for construction and testing purposes of mail armor nor am I all that familiar with how small of a keyring you can get for the flexibility of the mail.
Do you think that soldiers braced for projectiles such as holding their shield above them a few feet from their body would come out safe? Or I could see forearms being impaled and in a sense nailed to their own shield
I have a question. If I used fishing stainless steel split rings to make Chainmail ,will it work as well as soldered or or riveted Chainmail or will it work like butted chairman? I did actually make a stainless steel Chainmail strap for my wallet out of about 164 size 7 flat split rings which is claimed to be able to take 78kg per ring. I just can't test it as it's extremely and time consuming to make anymore. Which is why I'm asking.
my ancestors are scottish, idk if this will have any relation to ur channel but i feel it. might. i am actually realted to Robert The Bruce and i have been researching his armies, the weapons they used, and all that good stuff. i find it extremely interesting and i have started making my own chainmail! its lots of fun but takes alot of patients. i am currently making dragon scale chailmale right now.
hey can you give me advice on where I can find a decent non-viking round shield? Something that would have been widely used by Europeans of the lower classes in the 14th century? I've got a helmet and a spear. Just trying to get something that could actually protect me and get that commoner foot soldier look.
@ThegnThrand Does the mild steel(iron ) riveted/solid chainmail gives the same protection like this one on the video or does it need some stronger steel?
Yes we have videos testing a shirt like you described with a 70# bow and will be testing it further soon. Arrow Vs Historical Chain Maille Armor Reply to The Game Theorists! ruclips.net/video/l2-QuTLkZOQ/видео.html
one thing that'd be interesting to see is (if you remember) the deadliest warrior episode with the Rajput? They used the Qatar and punched straight through. However, I'm certain they used butted mail. What I'm requesting or recommending is the validity of this. Really just to check what it could do against riveted mail. I'm even starting to think they used aluminium wires for making that mail on the show.
I only have training in making butted, but yes, butted is pretty much only good for aesthetics like jewelry, or reenactments where you use boffer weapons that won't bend them out of place at least as easily as real weapons. Anyone that took a welding class or other welding training or just researched it should know cold welds (ie., rivets) would make things hold much stronger than without a weld, and hot welds (Oxy-fuel, arc, forged, etc.) are the strongest.
+Beardshire Correct and yes Asian and speicfically Japanese kusari is butted or made like key rings to hold it together and is woven different but they do have early kusari that is 4 in 1. Most cases Kusari is used with plates called Karuta or cards and fills in spaces between plates and bendable areas and is butted most of the time but heavy gauge and backed with padding combined with silk it is sew too.
+Lee Thompson I too am curious about this, but i think it might be important to take the results with a small grain of salt. Its true they were using only a 60 pound bow, and war bows were far heavier in draw, but they were also using it point blank. Id love to see a war bow used at appropraite ranges- or at a MINIMUM, see how much a war bow is roughly delivering at those ranges, and then done point blank with equivalent forces.
+SidewaysGts me too! but short range also counts historically, there were battles where the longbowmen were firing from less than 20 yards away. I would love to know what damage that would cause, and if it would knock you off your feet.
The difference in performance is positively amazing, it's almost as if the butted mail is doing nothing where as the riveted or soldered offers such significant protection. Great stuff guys!
+I am Shad Thank you Shad every one should sub your channel as well great stuff there too shield brother!
+I am Shad I have a video ready about your swept hilt sword or normal hilted sword concerns :) .
+ThegnThrand where did you get that maile it looks very nice? also keep up the awesome work
Hey shad why do people critze butted mail testing even when its a just for fun a non historical test
+X Infinity Because many people don't see the difference between a fun video and a fact video. They see something on the internet (without thinking for themselfs at all) and believe, that it is a fact...
Very nice video, and yes poor Romans totally deserved riveted/solid rings so it's good they got those :D
ps: Mamma mia butted mail is a joke xD
+Metatron Agreed we should do a crossover video one day or a google hangout live would be great fun Shield Bother!
ThegnThrand I totally agree :) In June I will get my holidays (I'm a school teacher) so I'll have lots of free time this summer and we should definitely do that :3
And then Lindibeyge showed authentic maille, in a museum, with butted rings, but alas...
oh hi there
Ahh, but his butted mail was not this stuff. The difference is how tightly you make the butts. In Lindybeige videos, he shows you how to make tight links which click-together and require some force to come to together. Modern Repro Chain tends to be just for show with actual gaps in the links which are barely holding the shirt together. This video is as much an assault on the crappy History Channel shows which keep using cheap reproduction armor for "tests" and claim to show how good or bad stuff was. Also, Butted mail is much rarer than riveted mail no matter what. Lindybeige's main complaint is people arguing it was not done at all.
You guys had done much better job than many "experts".
honestly these tests make me question the "mail is weak against thrusting attack" nonsense I think they reason they went to plate was because they where tired of getting shattered ribs.
+Nick Graham And, you know, because they finally could.
+Nick Graham That is the case it is not weak against thrust from melee weapons.
+Midget Tosser well what started the original plate armor arms race was the English longbow and it's deviating effects on french cavalry.
+Nick Graham Even so, good steel plate armor of the day could protect from longbow shots in all but the thinnest areas, from all but very short range. However, low-quality iron plate, which was still common at the time, could be penetrated at well over 200 yards.
real pointy tipped gladius were made for penetrating chain armor. however, it's got to be pointy and havea lot of thrust to tear away a few rings.
I like to assume that people today are about as smart as people were 1000 years ago. Collectively we are smarter in some ways, but people feel the same way about technology today as they did in the past. If it doesn't work, people don't use it. People wore armor because it worked, people used the weapons they did because they worked, assuming "people" were dumb or used technology that didn't work for it's intended purpose, for hundreds of years at a time is just arrogance.
I highly doubt we are collectively smarter. Civilization actually has a dysgenic effect by reducing selection pressure on populations. Today dumber and weaker people can survive much more easily, so this counters whatever effect more nutrition or whatnot might have.
The world average IQ is actually dropping fairly fast, simply because the fastest growing populations are currently the ones with lower IQs.
+migkillerphantom We got better stuff and a few people are really smart but I think the average human isnt smarter
entropy50607 Except that no, it's actually not. Heritability of IQ *increases* with age, not decreases.
Some dude invents butted mail thousands of years ago and it just faded into the history books for being innefective- Oh wait we still know how to fucking make it, and hang on, maybe it was actually used before thousands of years in which the "useless" information had to die. I don't mind the chainail making side of youtube but the speculatuve use side is absolute garbage. People fucking wear butted mail. It works. I still wear it in 2018. I can shit out knife, sword and electrical attacks like nothing. I hard tool my rings, I use heavy gauge wire and I'm not a garbage craftsman. I mean these mother fuckers are actually using 16 bage steel because their baby hands can't fucking handle real butted mail, which does work, but not against three hundred psi stabbing blows to four fucking rings. I'd like to make this make sense to these people but I can't, weak ass wire equals weak ass chainmail. Poor craftsmanship equals giant ass gaps in your rings and weak spots. Use your fucking pliers and no thinner than 14 gage and you won't be able to make a shit speculative video like this you assholes. 16 Gage? Really? A length of that wire can be torn apart HORIZONTALLY BY HAND. Use fucking yarn if you want this strength, do you not understand that steel loses thousands of times it's strength every millimeter you strip from the width? Fuck. Fuck you people. Make 1sqft butted mail on video for me and your opinion might be considered.
@@migkillerphantom For anyone reading today, this nonsense is called racialism or 'racial science', and it has been disproven and it's proponents discredited. Essentially, racism dressed up.
It's amazing that real, proper armor works! What really does amaze me is how often and how laughably wrong documentaries get these types of things, even with the help of "experts".
+kokofan50 Very true!
+kokofan50 Shows set out to be "entertaining". Showing something break armor, while insisting that it is proper armor, is more spectacular.
If it hadn't worked, it wouldn't have existed for millenia.
+kokofan50 Or that scene in The Return of the King where an orc shoots clean through the chest plate of a Minas Tirith soldier. That is one thing that is great about this channel, they actually test these things and distinguish fact from fiction with hard evidence!
+kokofan50 You'll find that they leave out a lot of information on places like the History Channel, and not just when it comes to weapons. Have a good day.
"I wanna do a test of kevlar against handguns, but since I don't feel like going through the trouble of getting real kevlar would using a different type of fabric like cotton be good enough?"
-Basically people who use butted mail for armor tests.
Except that there are many documented experiments with cotton, and other fabrics and types of materials, against handguns, fragmentation and stabbing weaapons. Kevlar was invented in 1965, to help reinforce car tyres and hoses etc, not for body armour. It didn't become widely available until much later. What do you think they used in the centuries before Kevlar? Nylon, Silk, Cotton, Hemp, linen, wool, cellulose and glass fibre, to mention just a few.
@@another3997 the point the person was making < ------ > you
@@ZoeyCrimson Maybe that person shouldn't have made a very stupid point.
@@another3997 and all that shit is worse than kevlar. Kevlar does more than any of that shit with much less weight
@@bud389 It wasn't a stupid point. Stop d-riding this pedant
It's so nice to see tests done with properly made mail armor. Just got finished watching forged in fire on TV, and their lousy test on butted mail. Liked the video, great work.
These TV have no excuse for using butted mail when they have supposed experts to advise them. I have to conclude then that they are being dishonest for some reason, making armor seem far less effective than it actually was. I don't know why they would do that though.
+ShieldWife Agreed and well said but I wonder what the motive would be? By the way subbed to your channel :D
ThegnThrand
I'm honored to have somebody with such an amazing channel as a subscriber :D
I don't really know the motive either. I know that there are many people who have this idea firmly in their heads that people in the past were complete fools and that we are so much smarter today. Armor seems to really take the brunt of this attitude, with knights often being portrayed of lumbering idiots who can barely move and who can't get up if they fall down - like in TH White's "Once and Future King."
Maybe there is some anti-European bias involved, since heavy armor is sometimes perceived as being uniquely western as opposed to lightly armored eastern armies. Which isn't necessarily even true about the relative armor worn by different cultures in history, but it still might tie into those biases.
in fairness, in the once and future king, they had the 2 comic relief characters jousting and they were obviously quite concussed or tired when they ran past each other and hit trees.
I would assume that cost would be the reason for using the easier, faster, and therefore cheaper item.
Its always a problem for me when they use butted and not riveted mail in those shows, I had a conversation about that with my dad recently. He questioned why they ever used it in the first place if it was so time consuming and expensive to make and then just fell apart like that. The obvious answer is they didn't! The people that make those shows pay no attention to the historical advisers they hire and just do whatever they like. They don't even set up the mail in a realistic way like you guys do, with the padding and all, our ancestors weren't stupid, they wouldn't have gone through the trouble of manufacturing it if it didn't work.
+Mitch Parker Very true!
*****
Asians used butted maille. The Japanese used Kusari or maille that was butted quite regularly but it was not used in Europe :D
Incredible the way riveted mail takes an axe blow without damage.
And that is on a solid surface.......I thought the padding was absorbing the blow
on the previous test.
Excellent research work.
Amazing that a couple guys with terrible cameras can give a more educational video than a tv network. Great video.
thank you! i am so tired of seeing people say that mail was really weak because their cheap butted mail wasn't all that strong and they, for some reason, think that what they have is accurate.
i lol'd: "i heard an ax would go clean through, lets see... WHACK!!! nope..."
That did make me laugh the way it just bounces off, although it didn't break the armor if someone was wearing it would be going through a very emotional event.
All the katana fanboys like:
"Uh Katana can cut through plate with ease"
Reality:
Cant even cut through good mail
I know. Freaking idiots. The Japanese weren't stupid, but their warfare was a bunch of peasants in almost no armor at all with crude spears intermixed with groups of leather armored opponents and the elite samurai who wore mostly leather armor. Curved swords, especially katanas, were made to slash through opponents who were lightly armored or unarmored. They didn't have to deal with quality shields, or even metalic armor most of the time. Samurai with katanas were excellent killers in the context of their culture and conditions. They would have been slaughtered by Europeans, Arabs, Persians, or Mongols.
+ThegnThrand
After observing how strong a chainmail may be; now I am in doubt if a dagger or sword could really penetrate the chainmail between the gaps of a fullplate armour
Should test it with a Rondel dagger (or a thin piece of steel); or an armour piercing sword liks an Estoc.
+yomauser Go for the eye hole.
There are weapons with very fine points that can slip through chainmail, though it is, of course, not guaranteed. Daggers are extremely effective at getting through armor against opponents whose mobility has been compromised. Using a sword in the normal fasion is not very effective at all against plate, however, there are two methods to compensate. One is called "half-swording" where you hold the handle of the sword in one hand and pinch the blade close to the tip to turn your sword into a makeshift dagger without having to drop your sword. The other technique involves holding the blade with both hands and striking with the crossguard, making a hammer (which is very effective against armor). To see these techniques demonstrated, you might check out Skallagrim, who describes and demobstrates both techniques well. Also, holding the blade of a sword is actually not as crazy as it sounds
what about paper armer...check out myth busters lol
+김산주 Considering how they made a boat of duct tape, I am interested.
Some Japanese mails were split ring , still kinda like butted but it has to unwind instead of just opening and giving way , it’s pretty strong, especially when used in smaller links like they like to do, but u don’t see much coverage of it
I love the energy in your videos. With that kind of energy, your historical knowledge, and the unique hands-on style of your tests I could really see you guys having your own tv show! History Channel is missing a great opportunity shield brothers!
+Jake Williams Von Starcher We were offered and made a test reel but nothing has come of it yet :D
+ThegnThrand They might not want to have someone on the channel that renders all of their other content obsolete. Because once you start pulling the threads, most history documentaries start to fall apart on a technical level.
Remarkable how that pilum flexes
+Pieter Batenburg He's definitely putting some power into throwing it. Oscillates like an arrow being released from a powerful bow.
+Pieter Batenburg Well they were historically designed to bend when they hit something like a shield so that they couldn't be thrown back at their former owners, or at least that's my understanding.
+Pieter Batenburg I thought the same at first, but actually I think the head is a bit askew, and gives the appearance of flex as it spins and wobbles. Especially when you consider how far forward he holds it and how thick it is, flex doesn't seem likely. My understanding is an arrow flexes largely because it's pushed from the back against the inertia of the head, and is thin.
I think the bending in the shield explanation is wrong, especially after seeing the pilum go through the shield and the (effectively) unarmored target behind it. It looks like the Romans wanted to maximize momentum per cross sectional area so that it had a good chance of going through the shields and actually killing someone.
A similar design philosophy went into late empire plumbata, which were basically lawn darts weighted with Pb.
Rabbit on Da Moon That's not impossible, nor even improbable, but I don't know if I buy it completely. It certainly has logic to it, but remember that the range at which most of these would be thrown would be much greater than what Thrand shows here, and as such you could really only hope to disable the enemy's shield, or at least make it very unwieldy. Certainly if you could kill them outright, that would be preferable, but it seems that most of the time this was not something which could be guaranteed.
I have also heard, from time to time, that they would carry two versions, one lighter one for longer ranges and a second, heavier one for closer ranges (the idea being that the lights are thrown first, and then the heavies are launched when the enemy formation has come closer), so it's entirely possible that both philosophies were in use. One pilum could have been meant to bend inside the target to hinder shields and prevent them being thrown back, and the second could have been meant for sheer penetration, since the risk of them being thrown back at such close ranges is slime to nothing.
I think another important thing to note is that riveted maille does not always mean historical though. There's a lot of riveted maille out there available on the market to purchase that isn't that much better than butted mail, apart from the fact that it can hold itself under its own weight.
Often the rivet holes aren't made with a drift, but instead with an awl, which weakens the structure and isn't historical. The rivets themselves are sometimes not the proper shape, thereby weakening the armour. Rivets are often not set properly, and the holes made for them aren't centered either. There's also the issue that the links on a fair amount of maille on the market are very rough cut, tearing up the aketon underneath, which affects the defense of it as well. Weave is also important as it the gauge. A lot of the products that are riveted have too loose a weave, or the gauge of the rings is too wide. Then there's the fact that for the most part historical maille was made with wrought iron, compared to hardened steel. So a strike on a modern reproduction made with hardened steel that is penetrated and the ring is split at the rivet point most likely won't have that happen on a properly made cuirass using wrought iron.
So I think what should be said is, stop using modern butted chainmail for historical maille testing, but also to stop using modern riveted chainmail that's not made properly for testing as well (and there's a LOT of it out there. The historically accurate stuff is quite expensive because of the time involved in the research and making it properly, and the people making it are usually single person operations, so to get a piece involves waiting).
I'd be willing to say something like 85% of all commercially available maille on the market is completely unsuitable for historical testing.
+Kisk79 Well Said!
*****
Medieval shoppe has some but as far as I know they have sold out and looking for a new source of better maille at the moment. The previous supplier no longer suppliers large quantities and is unable to fill orders for them on time.
*****
Butted over proper gambeson as you saw with 70lbs bow we miss judged draw weight checking it later to find actual draw weight stopped the bodkin arrow of a modern arrow. We tested some butted maille with proper gambeson on head and it did well too against medium strength cuts and thrust. Not saying its historically used in Europe but over multiple layers of cloth and padding it could save your life though.
Chain Maille Coif with Gambeson on Gel Head Tested with Viking Sword!
ruclips.net/video/_vYJtQnjXfA/видео.html
*****
Yes if you use butted maille in SCA fighting or battle of the nations style combat it with come apart much like the coif did I made in the beginning of the video with strong cut or blow. Good padding helps prevent this but it will still happen. But good news is will stop first cut then come apart unless a thrust spreads it and makes it through multiple layers of cloth which is still very difficult after hitting the maille even if butted on first attempt.
+FattyMcEaty According to the folks over at myarmoury.com the mail sold at GDFB.co.uk is of reasonable quality and is about as period accurate as you can get for a cheap price. I recommend getting the 6mm ID mail, since that's closer in diameter to historical mail.
If you want a reasonably priced, high quality gambeson to go with it, www.steel-mastery.com/ has a few choices that can be customised pretty heavily.
Just to point out... Butted mail WAS used historically ONLY in Japan. Never in Europe. It's effectiveness, or lack there of, is shown pretty well though.
agreed
There's a few cases of butted mail in africa as cheap repairs, a few Philippines mail an plate armours used it too, some decorative bits and one case of split ring mail from Europe being made for Khedivate of Egypt en mass in 1883 by his Zirkhagi, "Iron Men".
Celtic chain mail riveted? Sources? I knew differently
@@giadac.1647 The piece found in the Horný Jatov burial Slovakia is one of if not likely the oldest surviving example of chain mail. Many Roman scholars/historians claim the Celts invented it. It's riveted mail.
It's quite likely the first ever Celtic mail really was butted. But therer are no (uncovered) surviving examples. Which means either they moved very quickly to riveting their mail, and/or likely scrapped their butted mail very quickly.
@@SuperFunkmachine They knew it was s*** though, and nothing like on the scale of Japan
Excellent video, all the historical martial arts channels should create a kickstarter to create a historically accurate show to put deadliest warrior in the dirt. It would be glorious.
deadliest warrior has been dead for years, why are people still obsesd woth it?
I'd wondered about this. Tempering would also make a huge difference, usually modern steel is sold untempered so that its easier to cut and bend in production.
I remember thinking the same thing when I saw that program. Good job guys holding the tv "experts" accountable. This channel counts as expert quality subject material the the arms and armor they cover.
Thank you for making this. I've just got into making butted mail for fun but I didn't realise the difference was quite so pronounced, and this video has convinced me to try and work towards eventually making riveted.
Give that butted chainmail to the peasants, make them more confident.
2:05 nice shot, Sir! And an overall well done, informative video, I really appreciate your guys' effort. Keep up the good work :)
Thanks for explaining that butted armor was not in use but riveted mail. This was indeed a necessary Video. Thanks!
You are a true expert in historical and with armor you did your research and not just buy cheap crap and play expert like most other shows and people, Great stuff man thanks for the true history lesson i hope the wannabe professionals see your video's and learn something. Have good one and keep up the great work.
Thank you so much for this video.
You are most welcome!
I can't help but wonder why companies are making "stab-resistant vests" when riveted chainmail works pretty damn well against most knives
dvon9392 very true
ThegnThrand I gotta assume price, weight, and comfort to the wearer factor into it lol
ThegnThrand But riot police in Germany have been seen wearing riveted chainmail in addition to their kevlar due to the rise of axe and machete attacks
A good brigandine's what people really want.
I have noticed this myself. I have worked a little with butted mail, sometimes winding and cutting the rings myself, and I have noticed the mail actually pulling itself apart under its own weight. It is however much more time consuming to make riveted mail. Butted only for decorative pieces.
Agreed
Although the Asian cultures and Japanese used butted maille called kusari or chain.
@@Thrand11 Sure, but that is made differently from European chain maille, and I can only assume it did do its job there. Butted maille with European techniques however is a recipe for disaster if you want it to protect you against anything.
Out of curiosity, what kind of material were you using? I've been making butted costume mail with 14 gauge steel (I buy electric fence wire from the farm store and strip the galvanizing with acid) for quite some time now, and it's held up just fine under light use. I mean, I'd never wear it into combat, but it has no trouble at all supporting its own weight, and wearing it around a ren faire for a day doesn't cause any damage to it.
I think it helps that it has some springiness to it. If you push the cut ends past each other and then pull them apart as you close the ring, they hold themselves together pretty tightly. Softer (or thinner) metals aren't as good at that.
I dont want to tell them but that mail shirt is worth the entirety of the shire.
LOL
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Yes! Thank you! I have been wanting to see a video like this for a long time. It pisses me off that every show uses butted maile. Thumbs up to you kind sir.
I made up a test square years ago: rings with scarfed ends, brazed together.
That square foot took in excess of thirty hours to make!
Most of the time was eaten up by the brazing.
Tough as hell! A .22 lr fired into it did not break any links, but some lead spattered its way through.
Great video, love your channel. You guys need to make a video Stop using 16 Gauge theatrical Breastplates to shoot with modern guns, black powder firearms, bolts and arrows. I'd like to see a video showing the difference between 16 gauge breastplates and replicas of Musketeer age breastplates made with the proper steel and proper steel thickness.
Excellent video. I've been looking for exactly this for awhile.
Thanks for your work guys. Wish you the best and greetings from Germany :)
Was your maile silver soldered when it was originally manufactured or did you "fix" some butted maile? I've been wondering for a little while now on how practical it would be to spot weld some butted mail to make better.
Joe Cheavens that would be awesome...
Joe Cheavens maybe you could be the first to do it?
In Japan there was a style of mail referred to as keyring mail that is to say it is not riveted or butted but like key rings
Agreed or butted was used just depended on use and maker. There are some examples of 4 in 1 Kusari like European and solid rings mixed in but rare.
I thought the same thing.
Great testing and great results fellas! Stellar work.
Wow, thank you for making a real chainmail test! Great video.
Very interesting video. Can you create video showing how to create the various styles of mail you were mentioning? I'm brand new to crafting chainmail and am trying to get as much information as I can.
i use butted for historical recreations and sparring and it lasts me a good amount of slashes before i have to close it
+actingamer101 Indeed, butted maille is amazing for the looks when you don't have the means to buy or make a riveted maille (in my case, can't import it due country's policies, and I live in an apartment), but it's good to know and realize the actual uses of it.
Against blunt weapons, sure.
There are many examples of historical butted mail, especially from asia. There are examples of Japanese butted mail from the edo period. There are examples of Viking butted mail, and there are a few, although admittedly not many, examples of butted mail used in medieval Europe. To say butted mail was never used historically is just wrong. Another thing to consider is that most of the museum examples of mail (although not all) are riveted. There are many reasons for this, riveted mail was much more widespread in Europe than butted mail, but also, riveted mail probably lasts longer than butted mail. If you imagine keeping mail for years on end, and it passes down through your family, of course the riveted stuff is going to survive longer. Another minor problem I have with your video, which is a problem you seem to share with the "Deadliest Warrior", you tell us very little about the steel of the butted mail. Is it heat treated? How has it been heat treated? What type of steel is it? How thick is the steel you are testing? How wide is the internal diameter of the rings? All of these factors affect the strength of butted and riveted mail.
I think you're probably correct, but the overlap is slight and wouldn't add anything majorly significant to the strength of the chainmail, I don't think it overlaps by a tonne so maybe over the whole shirt it'll add some extra protection, but I don't know that it's enough to make any realistic difference.
There are historical examples of early iron age butted mail but the Romans at least made 1/2 solid 1/2 rivited.
Do you know how they made those "solid" rings i have been trying to find the information out but nothing thus far...
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when u hit the body, u are like little kids on xmas..YYYYEEEEEEAAAAAAAA :-)
Glad you done this video. This is something that has bugged me a LOT.
I dont know how many videos i have seen on youtube. and damn even some tv programs and shows that show chainmaille. usally some kind of weapon again maille. often to show how effective the weapon is. or to show that chainmaille was crap. Then using buttet chainmail.
Very common on bow fanatics, that want to show how effective the bow was. they place some cheap butted mail at a target, shoot trough it and goes "Yeah look at this, chainmail would have been useless against bows and arrows"
+Reddokk Fheg The tinfoil sheet "plate armour" used by bow fanatics is pretty amusing too.
deektedrgg yeah the one thats so thin it would dent if you poke hard on it with your finger :)
as someone who used butted mail in my armor, yes, I get holes, but not anything like you managed to open up with the sword strike. maybe a ring or two pop open. Maybe my mail is of better quality, thicker rings, but I've taken quite a few sword strikes, since all I wear is a light gambeson, with a butted mail hauberk over the top and a light leather cover over that, and I participate in live steel combat. of course, mail is completely ineffective against thrusts, mail wasn't intended to protect against the thrust or other penetrative attacks, it was meant for the cut and slash. plate armor is for penetrative protection. yes, I'd prefer to have riveted mail, but the butted works just fine in practical use.
Finally a real test on real riveted mail!
A problem with the closed soldered ring is if it needs to be replaced but you could just cut it I suppose or undo the solder, otherwise the riveted is probably easier to fix if broken
I did a riveted vs budded and the budded just isn’t locked in enough, it flings open and all the rings go flying, then the riveted is so flexible, and locked in where it just stays right intact, definitely recommend riveted
Awesome video!!! It was the armor's ability to prevent piercing damage that led to the use of armor but the impact of the weapons. ( you mentioning this) deadliest warrior was a joke when it came to its testing methods. Much rather see your takes on who would prevail in death matches.
Nice video guys. Interesting results.
Would love to see the armour tested with a full strength bow. 60 pound bow is quite light. Traditional Long Bows were estimated at 90 -110 pounds. May make a difference. Arrow weight should also be taken into consideration.
Also test a modern 85 pound compound bow just to compare modern vs ancient tech.
That moment when you click on the video and he is wearing the same Iron Maiden shirt as you..
What's the technique at 11:02 for creating a section of mail for vital areas like the neck?
Great job on this video guys. It would have been better to have proof tested the weapons first to show they are sharpened and battle ready. But still, much appreciation for all your efforts. *thumbs up*
Have you guys ever tried spear thrusts against your good mail?
+demomanchaos I have wanted too try that out as well!
ThegnThrand I wonder if bronze can get through or not, it did a good job on the car hood and breastplate after all.
+demomanchaos JA! It did shield brother we shall try it in a future test I am sure now you mentioned it!
+ThegnThrand I'd really like to see proper mail vs some true battlefield weapons, like 100+ pound bow, halberd, poleaxe and the like.
Really good stuff as usual. I really enjoy your channel. I have one question if you don't mind: The image at 1:18 looks like a very nice piece, do you know where this is from and if there are more images and information of this piece of armour?
Thank you gentlemen! Subscribed. Just enough words to explain the well presented action. How it has to be done. So much massive amount of BS told about the mail armour. Keep going! The rest of you(tubers) take an example. Stay humble and reduce the talking. Cheers
Look up my newer test videos Roland Warzecha and I test all riveted and solid row historical maille with swords and spears
You guys seem like awesome guys to hang out with
Can anyone help me find good riveted mail on a 300 dollar budget? And is aluminum rivited chainmail is good?
Not aluminum, you would want steel.
that maybe a bit expensive considering steel goes for 500 to 100 dollars
kritonas dionysiou But the aluminum might as well be butted steel mail, it is much weaker and softer than steel blades.
I can see why the roman empire had the soldier pay for his armor (Republic and Prior)
kritonas dionysiou Yeah, when you imagine the dozens / hundreds of hours it takes to rivet the hundreds of rings by hand, and you are paying for skilled labor it become quite expensive.
Riveted mail offers great protection, but I wouldn't get hit by a sword or arrow anyway. I bet it's still painful.
That is why gambeson is worn under it.
@@Thrand11 Yes, that is a good combination.
@@Thrand11 I want to ask something about your Scottish claymore.
The handle looks a little oddly shaped. I'm not sure how it feels to hold a spiral handle like that.
Is it comfortable to hold? Doesn't it feel weird?
@@fransthefox9682 why I griped it from ball pommel and pinched up near quillon to keep edge alignment and for maximum leverage due to heavy blade.
@@Thrand11 Still, I would prefer a simple oval shaped handle wrapped with leather. Wouldn't you agree?
you can tell that there aren't as many museums of ancients artefacts in America as we have here in England. Both butted AND riveted mail has been used by various people over various times. Yes riveted is generally superior, but it is not the ONLY historically accurate armour. I recommend the channel "lindybeige" , a British university lecturer who has done actual, extensive research on historical armour from around the world, and gives excellent and entertaining information on the subject.
The butted maille - at least the stuff I've had access to - it was easy to expand the rings with bare fingers.
Informative video--I enjoyed it. Hope to see tests on riveted mail too.
Yeah, after watching a lot of these 'serious' shows over the years, the mail always seemed to be defeated easily and it left me with a poor impression of it as a type of armor. And yet it was worn for over a thousand years by men who could afford it. And I kept thinking that something that is fairly useless that is expensive and labor intensive to make wouldn't have stuck around for that long if it was really that poor at defending against hand and missile weapons. I always suspected that butted mail had to be inferior because if it weren't, why would you go through the hassle of making tiny rivets, drilling holes, etc. Very laborious work. Plus, when they used butted mail in their shows, they usually had it flat up against a hard unyielding surface - absolutely no give - yet a man will tend to recoil when struck, robbing a blow of some energy, plus the tissue under the mail will give some too.
Thanks for the vid.
Great video.
I'm very interested in the issue of historical Armour.
I want to begin a collection, but an accurate one.
¿From where place in the internet would you to recomend buy a good quality riveted mail?I have too curiosity about materials and the improvements wich modern one s can add to old Armour technology.
Is there a functional riveted mail of a material wich weight less than iron but it is more resistant?
Thank you for your video's.
I've heard that there's a way in making butted mail functional, mainly by using two gambesons and having the mail between the two padded gambesons, could you guys try this in order to see if it would work or not.
Butted mail is for the show.
Riveted and soldered are for combat.
Thank you for this. Maille is expensive even in Australia. You just saved me the money of learning from buying cheap. :)
Have you considered making a comparison video between historical mail and a modern stab proof vest? I think it would be interesting to see what NIJ rating they would have.
I remember in an episode of Deadliest Warriors they thrusted with a 14th century sword in a chain mail: It got straight trough and, even before being in contact with this community, I knew there was something wrong about it, why else would have they used it otherwise, if a single chop or thrust can cause heavy damage to a thing that took several weeks at making it in that time?
Going in battle with what they called "historical" on that program is just like getting all your teeth removed, replacing them in solid gold and then smashing your mouth with a hammer.
That's amazing seeing that arrow bounce off, and from such a short range too! How much does that chain shirt weigh?
would the thickness of the ring make a difference? I am making 4 in1 euro mail with 12 gauge rings. i think it could withstand you blow fron a sword.
It could also be interesting if you guys test the different types of mesh. Like 4in1
8in2 this dragon skin think or Japanese mail.
Extra question: is your soldered mail heat-treated, like late medieval/Renaissance chainmails were?
never knew there were different types of mail. good thing i know now since i haven't bought a suit of armor yet.
I have learned a lot about ancient Roman armor. I have never read anything indicating that Romans used butted mail. Kind of the opposite, that mail making fell out of favor when the time it took to rivet the stuff was no longer as available after the collapse of the Imperial economy.
Yeah, it is a lot better when riveted or soldered but if you're a LARPer with low budget a butted one will work perfectly fine.
True that. I had a friend in highschool that made butted mail for everyone else. It looked pretty good.
I love the intro, and I love this video! A wonderful message. Have you guys been following KnyghtErrant? You seem to have done a couple videos supporting the points made in his recently. This isn't a bad thing, it's really nice to see content expanding off of other content!
Only suggestion. Perhaps make an image similar to your opening / backdrop to display text / annotations, instead of a generic background with foreground text. I know that it's an investment; but - it's a one-time investment that'll help polish up your videos! Love the work you guys do, and I hope other people do too!
Speaking of history. I do like history, but i dont find it requirement to know everything accurately like times and dates etc.
I have watched alot of history programs to learn what happened and how. For me knowing roughly when, where and how something happened is enough. I dont need to know every little detail. Saying all that, looking at these videos makes me feel angry about mainstream educational programs!! Because i feel i have been lied in all of them!
Seeing how far from truth those mainstream ''teachers'' are, im inclined to disbelieve anything that comes out of their mouth!
I guess i have to thank you guys for opening my eyes in that matter. Bottom line is, you cant trust what they show you in educational documentaries cause they are just horse shit!
I'm starting to wonder if keyrings could be made into somewhat effective chainmail that would offer the cheapness and ease of manufacture of butted mail with the protective value of something more solid. I'm not sure how mass produced they are for construction and testing purposes of mail armor nor am I all that familiar with how small of a keyring you can get for the flexibility of the mail.
Do you think that soldiers braced for projectiles such as holding their shield above them a few feet from their body would come out safe? Or I could see forearms being impaled and in a sense nailed to their own shield
I have a question. If I used fishing stainless steel split rings to make Chainmail ,will it work as well as soldered or or riveted Chainmail or will it work like butted chairman?
I did actually make a stainless steel Chainmail strap for my wallet out of about 164 size 7 flat split rings which is claimed to be able to take 78kg per ring. I just can't test it as it's extremely and time consuming to make anymore. Which is why I'm asking.
What would you say is a reasonable price for a dome riveted hauberk made of 18 gauge mild steel?
my ancestors are scottish, idk if this will have any relation to ur channel but i feel it. might. i am actually realted to Robert The Bruce and i have been researching his armies, the weapons they used, and all that good stuff. i find it extremely interesting and i have started making my own chainmail! its lots of fun but takes alot of patients. i am currently making dragon scale chailmale right now.
chainmail*
Any chance a wireless mic might be used in future videos? The audio can be very muffled/muddy at times. Thanks.
hey can you give me advice on where I can find a decent non-viking round shield? Something that would have been widely used by Europeans of the lower classes in the 14th century? I've got a helmet and a spear. Just trying to get something that could actually protect me and get that commoner foot soldier look.
@ThegnThrand Does the mild steel(iron ) riveted/solid chainmail gives the same protection like this one on the video or does it need some stronger steel?
Yes we have videos testing a shirt like you described with a 70# bow and will be testing it further soon.
Arrow Vs Historical Chain Maille Armor Reply to The Game Theorists!
ruclips.net/video/l2-QuTLkZOQ/видео.html
ThegnThrand so historically the riveted chainmail was made from mild steel/soft steel/iron? thank you sir for you answer
very informative, thank you guys
Still, a test using an 120 pounds bow and heavy arrows will seal the results and eliminate any doubt if successful.
Not many people can use bows of that kind of draw weight. It takes many years of training.
one thing that'd be interesting to see is (if you remember) the deadliest warrior episode with the Rajput? They used the Qatar and punched straight through. However, I'm certain they used butted mail. What I'm requesting or recommending is the validity of this. Really just to check what it could do against riveted mail. I'm even starting to think they used aluminium wires for making that mail on the show.
I only have training in making butted, but yes, butted is pretty much only good for aesthetics like jewelry, or reenactments where you use boffer weapons that won't bend them out of place at least as easily as real weapons. Anyone that took a welding class or other welding training or just researched it should know cold welds (ie., rivets) would make things hold much stronger than without a weld, and hot welds (Oxy-fuel, arc, forged, etc.) are the strongest.
could you get close with that bow or use on that distance windlass crossbow?
Thanks for saying what a lot of us where thinking.
If I remember correctly only Asian chainmail was ever historically butted, and it's like 8 in 1, and so much heavier.
+Beardshire Correct and yes Asian and speicfically Japanese kusari is butted or made like key rings to hold it together and is woven different but they do have early kusari that is 4 in 1. Most cases Kusari is used with plates called Karuta or cards and fills in spaces between plates and bendable areas and is butted most of the time but heavy gauge and backed with padding combined with silk it is sew too.
would it be possible for you to try this test on a 140 pound or above longbow?
+Lee Thompson I too am curious about this, but i think it might be important to take the results with a small grain of salt. Its true they were using only a 60 pound bow, and war bows were far heavier in draw, but they were also using it point blank. Id love to see a war bow used at appropraite ranges- or at a MINIMUM, see how much a war bow is roughly delivering at those ranges, and then done point blank with equivalent forces.
+SidewaysGts me too! but short range also counts historically, there were battles where the longbowmen were firing from less than 20 yards away. I would love to know what damage that would cause, and if it would knock you off your feet.
This guy is so excited
@ThegnThrand is it possible to sheer through rivited with an axe, and is every mail here butted
can you try and put something like tomatos into the balistics gel? that could show how strong the internal damage would be.