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Love that you include the pics too, but please include pics of the actual version or year being referred to. (FZ1 for instance you showed a modern one when they were talking about the first original, which is very different)
Yes.... That is SO nice, for us that are not as cultured (or lets be honest, nerdy) to have at least an idea about what they talking about when they rattle of models.
Love these gents, and the pod. Sounds like RevZilla is an annoying company to work for. I feel like I’ve noticed their policy changes through their presenters.
Hello from Ukraine 🇺🇦 We also have alarms here, not for earthquakes but for russian missiles. And we often continue to work because those alarms came up multiple times a day. So it is always a joy to hear your podcast, relax a bit and dream about riding a motorcycle in few months😊🏍️
That's the perfect summary here for everyone - normal people suffer while big players play chess, while American public creates an "independent" opinion about it and likes only one side of the comments.@@0hn0haha
Interesting pod cast. I always wondered about the Japanese cruiser “thing” I owned a Shadow 750 for a year and I must say - it makes a lot of sense. Practical, reliable, proven bike - for an affordable price. Metric cruisers have created a community and ethos all of their own and it’s pretty awesome. I think the blunder is thinking that a metric is always on the road to buying a Harley I actually got out of cruisers, but I’d own a Honda Magna in a heartbeat.
There have been a lot of awesome metric cruisers. The mid 90s Kawasaki Vulcan 1500A models are fantastic bikes to ride. Impossible to ride without a big smile on your face.
I’d say most metric cruisers are on the road to buying a Harley. Lots of us just end up taking a turn off that road. My first bike was a Vulcan 800, I wanted a Harley but couldn’t afford it. Then as I learned more about motorcycles and how I wanted to ride I realized I don’t really want a cruiser so I definitely don’t want a Harley.
You mean a heavy, underpowered grocery getter (could fit two full size helmets under the seats) was a mistake? I actually kind of like them. A really good grandpa bike
Great episode! I love the part where Zack, who struggles to go negative about anything, mentions that an idea came from the meth smoking division. That was gold!
I will vehemently defend Japanese cruisers for the rest of my days. Better than Harleys, more reliable, cheaper, easier to repair on the rare occasion they break, the list goes on. The V-Star 1300 I have will still be in running order when the sun swallows the earth. Can’t say that about any Harley.
Sprug imma have to call you out here, Kawasaki does have a very legitimate history with the W series. The w1 came out in 1966, was a 500cc 360 P-twin (Japan's biggest at the time) and was built on license from BSA
Yeah tough luck, they launched an expensive bike at the brink of the biggest recession we have had since the 80s. I am guessing it had more to do with timing than the public voting with their dollars.
On the tariffs Honda brought out the SC700 Nighthawk in 83 or 84 and it had self adjusting overhead valves and shaft drive and was a great model built to beat the tariffs
IIRC, all of the Japanese companies made 699CC versions of their 750's, at least for a while. Honda and Kawasaki started building their large bikes in the US. Honda in Marysville Ohio, and Kawasaki in Lincoln Nebraska.
I can't really call the Honda Fury a "Blunder" when it's been sold for like 15+ years, and it seems it sells well enough to keep it instock and in production year after year. When the EVO Sportster was still in production, the Fury was a pretty good contender in terms of the kind of bike you'd be looking for. I think the only blunder with the Fury is that it's shaft driven. If it was chain driven, it'd be way better. But Honda for some reason put a shaft on it. Weird. Not a blunder though IMO.
Probably has a drive shaft since it almost certainly was built from the VTX1300 and VTX1800 parts bin, and both were shaft drives. Hell, even the big boy 1100 Shadow replaced the chain of the smaller 750 with a shaft drive.
@user-rv7wx1oi2v Shaft drives are nice when you want low maintenance and high reliability, that's why you'll see them in large flagship touring bikes like Honda's Goldwing and BMW's K1600. The flip side is that they're heavy and have a greater power loss in transferring power from the transmission to the wheel. Also shaft drives have less play than chains, so aggressively down shifting at the wrong time can cause a loss of traction or even get the rear wheel to hop; which if it happens in a turn can cause a dangerous lose of control. All things considered, I'm glad my Honda 1100 Rebel (a sport cruiser in every sense of the word) had a chain drive rather than a solid.
@@Evolution_Kills were you dropped on your head or something? I'm asking OP why he would want a chain on a fury. Which is already a reliable chopper cruiser. You are just stating the obvious point of parasitic loss. We all know how to Google and can easily find everything you just said. Now, I would suggest reading OPs post, then my initial reply and see if it makes a little more sense the second time around.
My first street bike was a used 1983 Shadow 750 that I bought in 1990. I loved that bike. Unfortunately, it was stolen a week later and I never saw it again. 😢
Same actually. I've put 40,000 trouble free miles on a GS500. I recently graduated college and have better income and I'm shopping the same bikes you are. I'm leaning Suzuki because of my good experience previously, but I'm open to others.
@@fleshautomaton39 I forgot the Trident. I’m seriously considering that one too. The only thing I’m wondering about is maintenance cost with a British brand as opposed to a Japanese brand.
@@MrSpeed-lt8gr Definitely something to consider, though I doubt it would be a huge difference between them. Honestly I don't think you could go wrong with any of these options, sit on all of them, test ride if you can, and pick the one that feels right.
They still make the GSXR-750 because it's the best sports bike for 99% of people. Easy to wrench on, cheap to maintain and faster than your skillset for almost everyone but the Zack Courts of this world.
1:01:49 I am so with you my brother. I bought the 2023 MT 10 because a year after I test rode it I couldn’t get it out of my head. I’m going with the MT 10 all day long because it has all the power you could ever need with that Yamaha reliability, and that sweet cross plane crank!! i’ve been riding motorcycles since the early 1980s and this is by far the most amazing motorcycle I’ve ever owned. $14,000 Japanese reliability I’m sticking with the Yamaha.
OOOOOO W series talk! my favorite. So the W650 actually launched in Japan inin 1999. It was canned in 2008 for exactly that, emissions. The W8000 came in to make up that space. The original Meguro was a licensed copy of the BSA 650 as Japan didn't really have anything large displacement at the time. Kwasaki acquired Meguro and thus the license and launched the W1. It sold like crap. They updated it a few times with the W1sa etc... but it got canned. They tried relaunched it as the W3 roadster with dual disk front brakes and upgraded suspension. It also sold like crap, and it was canned. It was revived with the W650 which was really popular in Europe and Japan and sold like shit in the states, and now they've been running the W800 along with the Meguro K3. They're awesome bikes.
9 месяцев назад+1
I have a w650, just positively love it.... everyone back in the day just said it was the better bike to the triumph bonnie... I guess it suffered exactly the same "stigma" as the cruisers... OldSchool motorcycles pizazz was all about triumph... just like cruisers have to be american (HD/Ind)... back then, even Norton was down, bsa, they were all suffering.
@ honestly the same shit happened to me. I was looking at getting an older Bonneville and the shop I was at had a newer, nicer condition w800 for less cash than the Bonneville and I said, it's just a Japanese clone of the triumph, why would I get that? I ended up taking a Bonneville out for the day and did not like it and dropped the idea of getting one. I grabbed a different bike, and then I learned of the w series history. My buddy was visiting and he wanted a bike to rent to ride with me and he got the w800. I spent a few hundred Kms on it and realized I made a MASSIVE blunder by not buying it over the triumph all those years ago.
I've been a Kawasaki loyalist since 1977. After owning eight, from KZ400s to GPz1100s and a Concours 1000, I finally noticed the BMW K1300S, which is what I want in a bike. Looking for a nice one now.
That was fun! I very much enjoyed listening to some expert opinions. And given that many of these so-called blunders happened during the 1980's ( which were my formative motorcycle years) made it all the more intriguing! Kudos to you for including non-Japanese producers such as BMW & H-D into the conversation which added context. I do, however, have a different view on the so-called Reagan Tariff. I feel that the tariffs went a long way to help H-D regain its footing after the Motor Company went independent from (now defunct) AMF. Putting this protection in place gave the U.S.A.'s only major motorcycle producer some much need breathing space for the new management to make the necessary quality control enhancements & develop new product. I also do agree with you that for the Japanese brands, this tariff did not so much foster innovation, but to their credit, were able to adapt. Achieving that mostly by downsizing the 750 class into a 699cc class and also investing in production facilities here in the U.S. Because of the tariff and Honda's investment with producing their flagship Gold Wing in Ohio, the heartland of America, stamped on the back of my 1998 Valkyrie is "Made In U.S.A."! I feel a resurgent Harley-Davidson has by and large been beneficial to the worldwide motorcycle industry. I ,for one, could not envision Polaris developing Victory(later re-branded as Indian) to compete head-to-head with H-D. Nor could I see Triumph coming back from the grave! And for that reason I believe that the tariff went a long way to not only protecting Harley, but to preserving & shaping the industry today. Thanks for the opportunity to chime in and keep up the good work!~"Fearless" Phil N.
54:20 RE: Performance Standards. That's why I just bought a Triumph Street Triple the other day. All of the middleweight Japanese standards these days are low-spec, parallel twins. Aside from sounding like sewing machines with bad bearings, they _feel_ cheap when compared with my 2006 GSXR track bike. Yes, I wanted something more comfortable for the road, but I _didn't_ want to give up 20% (or more) of the _power_ or the high-spec chassis and brakes. Plus, it sounds awesome.
The Japanese 600s were an extension of the JDM 400s and a way to leverage the engineering already done for those rather than a reaction to the Harley tariff.
great podcast i purchased a honda fury when i wanted a cruiser because like you guys said harley sells a lifestyle honda sells a turn key custom that i never have to worry about
Spurgeon- look up the Kawasaki W1. This was Kawi's Kate 60s copy of the BSA A7. This is what the W650 would be based on in 2000. The W1 was a pretty good looking bike !
I know it’s only cosmetic changes but I wish we in North America could get the Meguro version of the W800. The current W800 is a more authentic 70’s Bonneville than the current line up from Triumph.
Not even a copy. It was a licensed copy from BSA. W650 has same power as my 800 with lighter weight and a kickstart. Emissions and M2 licensing requirements. I love how the W650 and W800 still keep popping up in high side / low side. -elated ‘21 W800 owner.
The Aprilla Tueno was introduced in 2002. Honda had the 900 Hornet / 919 out in 2001, and it was a naked built out of the 98' CBR900RR Firblade. Also, horsepower is a product of RPM. When you take a super bike engine and re-cam it for more lower/mid-range usable torque, you are absolutely going to lose the horsepower you'd get if the engine redlined a few thousand RPM higher. As someone who owned and loved a 919 for years, I can confidently say that the vast majority of riders aren't missing anything. My naked still made over 100HP in a ~485lb wet bike, more than enough power to be stupidly dangerous but also would allow you to lug it around in 6th gear at 45mph in a way you never could with a 90's era Fireblade. The 919 was far more usable on the street than any contemporary race replica sport bike.
The Reagan-Harley tariff was based on the H-D claim that the Japanese were ‘dumping’ motorcycles at severely reduced selling prices which was hurting Harley. So the Japanese big 4 just lowered the displacement from 750 to 699 with no serious loss in horsepower.
Japan's market was and IS extremely difficult for foreign companies to penetrate. The Reagan Administration wisely intervened to save thousands of American manufacturing jobs and the only American motorcycle brand that had already survived decades of losses of motorcycle brands. It was pretty easy to see that the Japanese Big Four had annihilated the British motorcycle manufacturers and were about to eliminate America's last manufacturer. In retrospect, it was the usual historical cycle of trade barriers (Japanese) inviting trade barriers in return (American). In the same early 1980's, American steel companies were being destroyed by Japanese and Korean competitors. That market was too large to save through American trade barriers, so the relatively small size of the motorcycle market did much to save Harley-Davidson. Detroit was likewise not saved through trade barriers. So much American manufacturing was displaced by Asian competition in the 1970's and 1980's, only for China to do it all over again in the 2000's.
I bought a 2023 Kawasaki Vulcan S, specifically because i wanted a cruiser style bike, but didn't want a Harley. There's a market for people that want the low seat and comfort, but not the Harley lifestyle or the mortgage to pay for the bike.
If I can only have one motorcycle, then make it a Honda Blackbird. Comfortable, smooth, more than quick enough. They should bring back an old school Sport tourer in that style.
Spurgeon is already fully embracing dad-mode. "Who needs all that power?! Its ridiculous! No one needs it!" While ignoring the fact that the R1 still exists and makes all that power and is very commercially available.
i believe the point there was a difference between like 210hp and de-tuned "slow" bike with "only" like 160hp or smth along those lines. i also believe there's not so many people who actually use and can manage 160hp bike to its full potential, and still not on public roads.
@alexbaskov the point is not whether it's useful or not, the point is that they took 40 hp off a bike that is supposed to be a naked version of the R1. Not a nanny bike.
From about 1:00:00 in, missing the Honda hornet bikes. I had an first Gen FZ-1, super reliable and 120 HP. The only thing I would have changed was the fork for an r1 fork. Also, fair play not to the MT-10 not having the r1 motor until 2016
Nobody in 1980 was cross shopping a 600 sport bike with a 1200 sportster. Japan was already making small displacement motorcycles for the Japanese market. I bought a 1983 GPZ1100 and I wasn't cross shopping it with a sportster.
So much interesting discussion. I'd say, while there's reason for frustration with the Japanese bikes, most people criticize them until they ride them. I bought a Suzuki I4 naked to back up my duc, and discovered a few things: It is better built and designed, there are no flaws to "ride around", and it is a joy to ride. Still love the duc, but... Euros and Asian are judged by different criteria. I'd guess that must be as frustrating to the Japanese makers, as it may be for a consumer waiting for an update. If any of the big 4 made a bike to the reliability level of KTM, they would be laughed out of the room. The Euros have mostly had to go for the niche of a niche approach, because they can't compete on ride-ability and manufacturing quality. Euros are good second bikes to scratch an itch, but as an only bike...you'll be driving your car a lot more than you like. The smallest Japanese maker - Suzuki - sells far more than all the Euros combined, and Honda sells about 15 times Suzuki. So they're doing something right. While a Japanese I4 making 150hp seems hard to call detuned, I also think that the rise of the P-twin, indicates what people want: low end torque, and never having to rev beyond about 6K unless you're feeling frisky, and shifting is a burden to be endured. I'd hate to be in marketing, People say what they think they want and then buy something else. Motus seems to be the poster boy for this. people said they wanted a bike with the best suspension, brakes, exhaust etc etc, and none of the nanny stuff holding back performance. Motus made that bike, and everyone bought a big fat soft BMW and cranked the traction control.. Aside: The NM4 and such, seems part of a Honda pattern started with the PC800 Pacific Coast, and their weird desire to make a "car motorcycle" - if that makes sense.Bless their pointy heads. Aside: While, the original monster was a clever concoction, it wasn't that much of a performer, but leveraged Ducati mystique very well. It is now just another very expensive bike with mid range performance for its class.
Listened to the podcast, but had to come here to say that Spurg is crazy to choose a MT10 over a Tuono. Has he ever ridden one? OMG! The Tuono is a hoot and one of the most fun bikes I have ever ridden. Abhi is right, we don't buy or ride motorcycles to be reasonable or practical! The Tuono stirs the soul!!!!
Usually listen on the podcast but episodes like this with so many bikes being mentioned I’ve never heard of or maybe heard of but never seen, ya had to watch on here
My Favorite blunder was when Spurge called Abhi…Ari. I wish we could have seen the look on his face. 😂 I love this show. Thanks as always for the entertainment!
The rebel 1100T is a blunder. The hard cases are huge but don’t hold anything. There’s no large windscreen. No electronics. Passenger pegs and seat are extra. Brakes are AWFUL. It’s all around bad because it tries to be too much.
To Spurgeon's point at 22:30, couldn't agree more. I want to daily an inexpensive, classically styled bike with room for two plus gear. Metric cruiser/bagger all the way. Started on a VT500, then ACE 750, took a break to indulge sport/touring, then Nomad 1500 and currently Nomad 1700. You could easily repurchase my 16 year motorcycle experience (with gear) for the price of a base '24 Road Glide. Unbelievable value, without question.
42 yrs lic’d & owned 37 bikes & still own & ride a mk1 Le Mans, 1959 BSA, & a fury. That fury with great fwd’s is the best thing I’ve ever had. It doesn’t trash tires, FI, anti skid, starts every single freaking time & it’s just so damned easy to live with as a daily. It’s not speed master so comfy on the speed limit so no tickets. I’m 6’3 & it’s just a comfortable twin, dirt cheap to run being Honda & I don’t have to keep getting it picked up on a trailer
57:49 Back in the late 80s I had a 1986 Yamaha Fazer. It was a naked bike with a 700cc Genesis 5 valve engine with 0-60 in the low 3s and I had it up to about 140. Used to race my brother on his Interceptor 750 and beat him every time! They only made it for 2 years, and the styling was a little different, but they were ahead of the times on that one!
Zak, I don't know if it's available in the US, but the Fantic Caballero 700 is, in fact, a Yamaha 700 CP2 scrambler. It looks like a damn fine bike, too. And to back up Avi on his point about the US wanting power, I think the Yamaha Tracer 700 not being available there is a good point. Personally, I think the US market is just very different to the European and Japanese ones. But, I think that is also changing as gas prices go up and younger riders have less disposable income.
And if you look at volumes, half of asia is riding Honda 125cc bikes dayly. There is 50 milion bikes registered in vietnam only. The US is a niche market. In many countries a 400cc sportbike is considered a big bike. Mostly expats are riding bikes over 500.
Japanese manufacturers made V-twins (VTX's, Boulevards, etc.) because Harley charged *absurd* prices for their underpowered, overweight, too-loud, low-IQ fashion pieces. There was a lot of easily-grabbed financial headroom to equal/beat Harley at their design game, and do it for significantly less money. So they did.
I agree with Abhi re the MT10. From a pure buyers perspective, if there was a higher HP MT10 was there it would feel more special akin to how an R1 feels special. It also costs way more now than it did on release in 2016. It depends on the local market you are buying in of course. This is why I love the Hayabusa. It still feels absolutely insane in 2024 and it's a brand new bike selling now. It feels.... bespoke, made with intentions that first birthed 20-30 years ago and are still relevant today. And I agree with Zack's point on teh Busa from the DR episode, that the next evo of the Busa should be more comfort + luggage but keep the absolute peach of an engine and drivetrain. Sorry am a Busa fanboi.
Honda still experiments. Sure, some of their bikes come off as oddball flops but the ones that actually make it are incredible. The X-ADV 750 literally made a whole new category of adventure scooters that followed the craze, and who would've thought that a 1000cc (later 1100) car-like automatic adventure bike with proper off-road chops even had a market?
I started my cruiser lifestyle on a 2003 Harley-Davidson Road King Classic, and I absolutely loved that bike. However, the price, the weight, the cost of maintenance, all made me move to wanting a metric cruiser. I have a 2024 Honda Shadow Aero in mind. Even if my engine drops from 1450cc to 745cc... the weight, the maintenance, the price, it is all more attractive than just owning the Harley-Davidson name itself.
My favorite Honda risk was the 1989 FL400R Pilot. So ahead of it's time. I know it's not a motorcycle but it was on the showroom floor with motorcycles at a Honda motorcycle dealer.
At 5’8”, I have the same size issues with some bikes, but in reverse. I had my beloved Kawasaki Verses 650 lowered due to the stand-over height being just tall enough to be unsafe when stopped at a side sloping road. I lost some suspension travel, but it was perfect for train track crossings, broken pavement, or anything else city commuting threw at it. I loved riding it with a top case only, to keep the profile slim. I miss that bike. I live less than 2 miles from the dealer, and I’m not at work today. I blame Revzilla for what is about to happen…
The biggest blunder by all the manufacturers is the lack of truly comfortable seating. My 1982 Honda CB900F is still the most comfortable bike in my 10 bike collection. My ST1100 is also,equally comfortable but it is too heavy for me to ride at age 76.
Zack - just got a '23 SFV2 feb. 10th and it's stellar! Halfway through break-in period and limited to 6,000rpm. Looking forward to opening it up after reaching the mile-equivalent of 1,000km on the odometer. Bike feels great to ride, sounds great, looks great; dream come true for me :)
My personal experience with "Japanese Reliability" is opposite the conventional wisdom. I've been a motorcyclist for over 50 years, so here's my list of Japanese bikes I've owned with poor reliability: 1. 1972 Yamaha TX750 (Abhi referenced the TX500, but it was the TX750 that was problematic): The first model year (1972) had the balancer shaft positioned too close to the oil sump, so extended high RPM running would cause the oil to froth, leading to main bearing failure. The fix was simple (deeper sump - easily retrofitted to the '72 models), but the damage (to reputation) was already done. 2. 1978 Honda CX500: Cam chain tensioner problems - I rebuilt that engine twice with cam chain breakage (with different sets of part numbers each time). 3. 1983 Honda V45F Interceptor: Cam oiling problems - I put a new set of cam shafts into that engine at 20,000 miles (along with an aftermarket oil feed kit). 4. 1998 Honda SuperHawk; Cam chain tensioner problems - the bike is currently awaiting a rebuild in my garage (with 26,000 miles). BTW, the two most reliable motorcycles I've owned: 1. 1975 Suzuki GT750; 46,000 miles with nothing but routine maintenance (tires, plugs, one final drive chain) 2. 1997 BMW R1100RS; 78,000 miles (and counting); nothing but routine maintenance (tires, and oil changes).
The bickering, the hyperbole, the opinionated "facts".... Just like three bench racing buddies.... that was fun!!! And to think this is the daytime version. I vote for an after happy hour, late evening version!
Re: the tariff timeline, reminded me of the Honda VFR line. That 750 was a hot performer and the dumped it down to a displacement under 700. Not a big Honda fan and, that gear driven top end was super cool. Also, the Elf model was interesting.
For 2 years, you couldn't buy a CRF 300 L without being on a 6 month waiting list. Do you think Yamaha made a blunder when they pulled the plug on the WR250R?
I have a bike that is both a Japanese blunder and a naked bike that kept most of its performance. The naked version of the Hayabusa; B-King! Been riding over 15 years and over 150k miles and I've never seen one in the wild.
Glad Abhi jumped in on the subject of the Kawasaki W650, when Spurg mistakenly seemed to dismiss it, it's a brilliant bike with a rich heritage even it did'nt feature strongly in USA, I've had a W650 brilliant bike I'd have another in heartbeat.
Perfect example of not meeting the performance standard is the Versys 1000 SE LT+. They neutered the 1043 engine instead of letting it go and directly compete with the S1000XR. Was 20 minutes early on my opinion.
Hello !! you both are great , I loved this episode and thanks for what you do. One thing I have to say and I know its a bit sentimental to me because it was my first bike , I have ridden it across the country , it has seen many sand stone deserts/ocean views and is still my daily rider today running perfect but the 1998 Suzuki bandit 1200 is such a great sport touring bike.I know you mentioned it briefly and totally understand it is not the lightest bike but its bullet proof, runs forever, comfortable , fast ,easy to work on, looks good and can make dreams come true haha as I said it may not be able to hold up against the Aprilia but the Bandit deserves deeper consideration for a good touring bike. Again I'm bias and I know that but GIVE IT SOME LOVE ZAKSPURG !!!!!
I saw the MCN review of the Suzuki GX bike and put the dyno graph of the 05 GSXR against it and I asked why so much missing. The say it’s a XR competitor but that is 165 hp and the original 05 GSX was similar in power, 19 years ago, great engine then, just ok these days, so much for moving the game on.
They discussed both Turbo Bikes of the 80s and the Tariff on bikes over 700cc, but never put the two together. The turbos were a way of getting around the tariff, and something commonly done in Japan to get around engine size restrictions historically.
Glad to see my Honda CTX 1300 on this list. It’s really a pretty great bike, but looks like they passed around the design to each engineer to add their flair, without any communication between them
Yamaha's Star line was the japanese best effort at meeting the American market at its level. Fantastic bikes, huge parts catalog, it just needed a customer that didnt care"what people think", and they got them they sold pretty well. The metric cruser surge was a blast for salemen in the early 2000s.
I bought a Vulcan 900 Custom last year. Brand new out the door with Extended warranty (that i probably didnt need) It was around $8500. To get something in a Harley or Indian I would've paid Easily 5-6K more if not double. I have a blast on the Vulcan. I take it to and from work and get out on the backroads when I can. Living in Wisconsin I get maybe 5-6 Months to ride if I am lucky. I feel way better when I see this bike sitting in my garage over winter than i would paying the extra cost for a Harley. I get the Harley die hards. Great motorcycles and have grown up around Harley's all my life. However, Japan is killing them when it comes to affordability. Also financing through Kawasaki at the time was 1.99%. Harley was at 7.99%.
Is interesting to listen to the conversation from her in Australia. As USA was "arm" of these companies we still had every size of engine here throughout he 80's. But yes I remember the turbo bikes etc. An interesting concept, but ahead of tech of the time I guess. We loved the mid 80's Katana 750 and 1100 of the era.
The W800 is still available. It’s too expensive and the seating design is ergonomically very uncomfortable which is why I got rid of my W650. The W800 had the same frame.
I laughed SO hard when you guys talked about the SCR950! I'm a fairly new rider and I only own a Honda Ruckus and my SCR950 that I traded my Fiero for... I've had a gut feeling that the bike sucks ever since I've owned it and I've always considered selling it. What really makes me hold onto it is that I've never gotten so many compliments in my life until I started riding that bike. It's also so gorgeous that I can't bring myself to let it go just yet..
FWIW - The SCR950 isn't a badd little bike to bop around town on. I actually had a fun time with it once I got out of the press launch situation where they had us on sandy roads and super winding corners. Cruising it across the desert and out to Joshua Tree for my "Chasing Gram Parsons' ghost across the desert on an SCR950" article with a duffle strapped to the back reminded me of why I love simple little bikes like my Bonnie. My biggest gripe was that Yamaha's marketing was all wrong. But if you like that bike, man, ride it proudly! Who cares what some knuckleheads on the internet think!
I grew up with the 70s and 80s japanese LTD style cruisers and so I love them. In the U.K. and europe you saw a hell of lot more of those than Harleys. They had their own kind of American cool but could still be ridden on country roads and have fun. All we knew of choppers in rural England was Easy Rider and those bikes would have been terrible to ride.
HAHA! I got that engine sound guess pretty much right away! It did throw me off a little with the sound, couldn't quite tell single vs twin, but that starter sounded familiar, and I did take one on a demo ride, so i've heard it before.
A lot of us lust over bikes that are offered in other markets but there are a couple problems. One is that we always think we want something we can't have. The other is that, when different or interesting bikes do come stateside, we don't buy them. These companies know their markets. They spend a lot of time and money on it. They might gamble on something once in a while but the margins aren't there to justify it unless they are very confident it will sell.
Honda X-ADV adventure scooter is a bike I can't get to keep my Ducati XDiavel S company. Makes sense to us older guys who don't want a 37" seat height ADV and simply want a twist and go bike for around town.
Turbo technology today is far cry from what was going on in the 80's. Now there are 1, 500 hp LS powered cars and Chris Moore has developed a 400 hp Hayabusa. Most cars today are 250 hp 2 litre four cylinder cars.
Tuono v4 1100 is 42hp down on power compared to RSV4, so Aprilia is doing the same thing as Yamaha and until this year so was BMW. It just was a norm to put less powerful and more torque oriented version of a superbike engine to a naked bike. Ducati Street Fighter changed that. Nowadays 180hp+ is the least you can do in this category. I like my middleweights more, but hey to each his own, I guess.
The Star Bolt would have been nice if they made it more visually attractive, improved the suspension and made it chain drive. It needed more ground clearance too.
I like how in the same conversation Abhi is furious that Yamaha put out a detuned MT10 while the R1 exists, and does not counter the point that the S1000XR is a raucus blast to ride. S1000RR had 193hp when I bought my 158hp S1000R in 2015. Not a single moment did I feel the bike was de-tuned. They added torque to the rev-band and it was immensely more comfortable than the S1000RR. 35 horsepower less did not make me feel neglected. S1000XR makes 170hp. Would the V4 Street fighter be fun to ride? Maybe. But perhaps it's geared too tall and is too twitchy, hence why the V2 is Zach's preference.
The MT10 issue: Why don't they release an MT10 SP with the full fat engine? Then the budget entry level MT10 can still be a lower power version with lesser suspension, brakes etc and an SP could carry all the gear over from a R1.
Two current Honda UK blunders: 1) Not bringing over the CT125. The US got it despite 125s barely being a thing, here it is a huge proportion of the new bike market by volume, we have no Japanese 125 dual sports, we love Honda Cubs and there are two current British youtubers who are famous for travelling the world on Honda Cubs. Instead we get the ST125 Dax which nobody ever asked for. 2) continuing to sell the CB300R and not swapping in the GB350. The CB300R is basically the worst A2 bike, Honda has multiple 500cc bikes in the same class that are vastly superior. The GB350 meanwhile is a legit contender for the Royal Enfield 350 bikes with slightly more power and Honda build quality. Loads of dad bikers would buy them here.
So happy HSLS is back! Would love to hear what they have to say about the new street orientated middleweight sport bikes coming out recently. With the rs660 and now the new Daytona 660 it sort of feels like the Japanese are being left behind (r7 and gsx8r seem kind of meh.) What do you guys think the best middleweight is for the street? Honestly kind of leaning towards a used Ducati SS.
![Digital Circus Episode 4 [TRAILER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/abZtsmMUbJo/mqdefault.jpg)
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THANK YOU producer chase for including pictures every time they mention a bike or car. I remember when we didn’t have this and everyone was asking
Agree! Thank you!
I absolutely agree!!! That’s the main thing that makes watching it here better than listening somewhere else
Love that you include the pics too, but please include pics of the actual version or year being referred to. (FZ1 for instance you showed a modern one when they were talking about the first original, which is very different)
Yes.... That is SO nice, for us that are not as cultured (or lets be honest, nerdy) to have at least an idea about what they talking about when they rattle of models.
I have a message to producer Chase - just allow these men to talk over the two hour limit you guys have. I'd even listen if it was five hours long!
@@7thsignthenorthcoast146 Completely uncalled for - what are you even doing here? you could be out riding instead of spreading your negativity.
@@7thsignthenorthcoast146 Nice, you sound like a great guy to be around...
Love these gents, and the pod. Sounds like RevZilla is an annoying company to work for. I feel like I’ve noticed their policy changes through their presenters.
@@7thsignthenorthcoast146 It's a little much tbh brother.
@7thsignthenorthcoast146 of course the loser of the group is worried about imaginary offended people he doesn't even know
Great job putting the pictures of the mentioned bikes up on the screen. Very helpful
Hello from Ukraine 🇺🇦 We also have alarms here, not for earthquakes but for russian missiles. And we often continue to work because those alarms came up multiple times a day. So it is always a joy to hear your podcast, relax a bit and dream about riding a motorcycle in few months😊🏍️
Hello from Belgorod, same here but opposite side rockets us lol. Can't wait for peace, love and motorbikes, best of luck for you.
That's the perfect summary here for everyone - normal people suffer while big players play chess, while American public creates an "independent" opinion about it and likes only one side of the comments.@@0hn0haha
"People don't buy motorcycles to be reasonable" is the best summation of American motorcycling.
Unfortunately....
fortunately...
Interesting pod cast. I always wondered about the Japanese cruiser “thing”
I owned a Shadow 750 for a year and I must say - it makes a lot of sense. Practical, reliable, proven bike - for an affordable price.
Metric cruisers have created a community and ethos all of their own and it’s pretty awesome.
I think the blunder is thinking that a metric is always on the road to buying a Harley
I actually got out of cruisers, but I’d own a Honda Magna in a heartbeat.
There have been a lot of awesome metric cruisers. The mid 90s Kawasaki Vulcan 1500A models are fantastic bikes to ride. Impossible to ride without a big smile on your face.
I’d say most metric cruisers are on the road to buying a Harley. Lots of us just end up taking a turn off that road. My first bike was a Vulcan 800, I wanted a Harley but couldn’t afford it. Then as I learned more about motorcycles and how I wanted to ride I realized I don’t really want a cruiser so I definitely don’t want a Harley.
@@mcearl8073 Same here 💯
As a magma owner, I agree. It’s an idiotic take, an unbecoming of anyone who prides themselves in being in media
Abhi, good to see ya back! Quite the value add to the show!
Thank you very much, it's always a pleasure to join Zack and Spurgeon!
I think the Honda Pacific Coast 800 deserves mention in this episode. Of course there are others as well.
You mean a heavy, underpowered grocery getter (could fit two full size helmets under the seats) was a mistake?
I actually kind of like them. A really good grandpa bike
Picked one up last August. Thing has been a blast!
Absolutely love HSLS above all podcasts and RUclips channels!!! Thanks for sharing
Great episode! I love the part where Zack, who struggles to go negative about anything, mentions that an idea came from the meth smoking division. That was gold!
I will vehemently defend Japanese cruisers for the rest of my days. Better than Harleys, more reliable, cheaper, easier to repair on the rare occasion they break, the list goes on. The V-Star 1300 I have will still be in running order when the sun swallows the earth. Can’t say that about any Harley.
My friend Shawn has 111,000 miles on a Harley wide glide, but you won’t catch me buying one lol
Japan makes no blunders; they make underrated gems 😅
Very well said ! Totally agree .
They make the most boring bikes, that’s for sure.
Sprug imma have to call you out here, Kawasaki does have a very legitimate history with the W series. The w1 came out in 1966, was a 500cc 360 P-twin (Japan's biggest at the time) and was built on license from BSA
Suzuki B-King was about the same power as the equivalent model year Busa. It wasn't neutered like the MT10
And yet it was not so successful
As a Busa fan and owner I would never buy a B-King
Yeah tough luck, they launched an expensive bike at the brink of the biggest recession we have had since the 80s. I am guessing it had more to do with timing than the public voting with their dollars.
On the tariffs Honda brought out the SC700 Nighthawk in 83 or 84 and it had self adjusting overhead valves and shaft drive and was a great model built to beat the tariffs
IIRC, all of the Japanese companies made 699CC versions of their 750's, at least for a while. Honda and Kawasaki started building their large bikes in the US. Honda in Marysville Ohio, and Kawasaki in Lincoln Nebraska.
I can't really call the Honda Fury a "Blunder" when it's been sold for like 15+ years, and it seems it sells well enough to keep it instock and in production year after year.
When the EVO Sportster was still in production, the Fury was a pretty good contender in terms of the kind of bike you'd be looking for.
I think the only blunder with the Fury is that it's shaft driven. If it was chain driven, it'd be way better. But Honda for some reason put a shaft on it. Weird.
Not a blunder though IMO.
Just curious why you think a chain would be better here. I agree with most your sentiment for sure.
Probably has a drive shaft since it almost certainly was built from the VTX1300 and VTX1800 parts bin, and both were shaft drives. Hell, even the big boy 1100 Shadow replaced the chain of the smaller 750 with a shaft drive.
@@Evolution_Kills agreed. Just curious why OP would want chain on a reliable chopper cruiser.
@user-rv7wx1oi2v Shaft drives are nice when you want low maintenance and high reliability, that's why you'll see them in large flagship touring bikes like Honda's Goldwing and BMW's K1600.
The flip side is that they're heavy and have a greater power loss in transferring power from the transmission to the wheel. Also shaft drives have less play than chains, so aggressively down shifting at the wrong time can cause a loss of traction or even get the rear wheel to hop; which if it happens in a turn can cause a dangerous lose of control.
All things considered, I'm glad my Honda 1100 Rebel (a sport cruiser in every sense of the word) had a chain drive rather than a solid.
@@Evolution_Kills were you dropped on your head or something? I'm asking OP why he would want a chain on a fury. Which is already a reliable chopper cruiser. You are just stating the obvious point of parasitic loss. We all know how to Google and can easily find everything you just said. Now, I would suggest reading OPs post, then my initial reply and see if it makes a little more sense the second time around.
My first street bike was a used 1983 Shadow 750 that I bought in 1990. I loved that bike.
Unfortunately, it was stolen a week later and I never saw it again. 😢
It’s true… I stole his bike
@@Malikot911 🤣🤣🤣🤣
As an intermediate rider, I appreciate the lower displacement naked bikes. I'm currently in the market for an SV650, GSX 8S or MT07.
Same actually. I've put 40,000 trouble free miles on a GS500. I recently graduated college and have better income and I'm shopping the same bikes you are. I'm leaning Suzuki because of my good experience previously, but I'm open to others.
Can't go wrong with an SV. Fun to ride and super reliable !
I would add the Trident 660 to that list as well, unless of course you are only interested in Japanese bikes.
@@fleshautomaton39 I forgot the Trident. I’m seriously considering that one too. The only thing I’m wondering about is maintenance cost with a British brand as opposed to a Japanese brand.
@@MrSpeed-lt8gr Definitely something to consider, though I doubt it would be a huge difference between them. Honestly I don't think you could go wrong with any of these options, sit on all of them, test ride if you can, and pick the one that feels right.
They still make the GSXR-750 because it's the best sports bike for 99% of people. Easy to wrench on, cheap to maintain and faster than your skillset for almost everyone but the Zack Courts of this world.
1:01:49 I am so with you my brother. I bought the 2023 MT 10 because a year after I test rode it I couldn’t get it out of my head. I’m going with the MT 10 all day long because it has all the power you could ever need with that Yamaha reliability, and that sweet cross plane crank!! i’ve been riding motorcycles since the early 1980s and this is by far the most amazing motorcycle I’ve ever owned. $14,000 Japanese reliability I’m sticking with the Yamaha.
OOOOOO W series talk! my favorite. So the W650 actually launched in Japan inin 1999. It was canned in 2008 for exactly that, emissions. The W8000 came in to make up that space. The original Meguro was a licensed copy of the BSA 650 as Japan didn't really have anything large displacement at the time. Kwasaki acquired Meguro and thus the license and launched the W1. It sold like crap. They updated it a few times with the W1sa etc... but it got canned. They tried relaunched it as the W3 roadster with dual disk front brakes and upgraded suspension. It also sold like crap, and it was canned. It was revived with the W650 which was really popular in Europe and Japan and sold like shit in the states, and now they've been running the W800 along with the Meguro K3. They're awesome bikes.
I have a w650, just positively love it.... everyone back in the day just said it was the better bike to the triumph bonnie... I guess it suffered exactly the same "stigma" as the cruisers... OldSchool motorcycles pizazz was all about triumph... just like cruisers have to be american (HD/Ind)... back then, even Norton was down, bsa, they were all suffering.
@ honestly the same shit happened to me. I was looking at getting an older Bonneville and the shop I was at had a newer, nicer condition w800 for less cash than the Bonneville and I said, it's just a Japanese clone of the triumph, why would I get that? I ended up taking a Bonneville out for the day and did not like it and dropped the idea of getting one.
I grabbed a different bike, and then I learned of the w series history. My buddy was visiting and he wanted a bike to rent to ride with me and he got the w800. I spent a few hundred Kms on it and realized I made a MASSIVE blunder by not buying it over the triumph all those years ago.
I've been a Kawasaki loyalist since 1977. After owning eight, from KZ400s to GPz1100s and a Concours 1000, I finally noticed the BMW K1300S, which is what I want in a bike. Looking for a nice one now.
That was fun! I very much enjoyed listening to some expert opinions. And given that many of these so-called blunders happened during the 1980's ( which were my formative motorcycle years) made it all the more intriguing! Kudos to you for including non-Japanese producers such as BMW & H-D into the conversation which added context.
I do, however, have a different view on the so-called Reagan Tariff. I feel that the tariffs went a long way to help H-D regain its footing after the Motor Company went independent from (now defunct) AMF. Putting this protection in place gave the U.S.A.'s only major motorcycle producer some much need breathing space for the new management to make the necessary quality control enhancements & develop new product. I also do agree with you that for the Japanese brands, this tariff did not so much foster innovation, but to their credit, were able to adapt. Achieving that mostly by downsizing the 750 class into a 699cc class and also investing in production facilities here in the U.S. Because of the tariff and Honda's investment with producing their flagship Gold Wing in Ohio, the heartland of America, stamped on the back of my 1998 Valkyrie is "Made In U.S.A."!
I feel a resurgent Harley-Davidson has by and large been beneficial to the worldwide motorcycle industry. I ,for one, could not envision Polaris developing Victory(later re-branded as Indian) to compete head-to-head with H-D. Nor could I see Triumph coming back from the grave! And for that reason I believe that the tariff went a long way to not only protecting Harley, but to preserving & shaping the industry today.
Thanks for the opportunity to chime in and keep up the good work!~"Fearless" Phil N.
54:20 RE: Performance Standards. That's why I just bought a Triumph Street Triple the other day.
All of the middleweight Japanese standards these days are low-spec, parallel twins. Aside from sounding like sewing machines with bad bearings, they _feel_ cheap when compared with my 2006 GSXR track bike. Yes, I wanted something more comfortable for the road, but I _didn't_ want to give up 20% (or more) of the _power_ or the high-spec chassis and brakes. Plus, it sounds awesome.
Abhi is SPOT ON when talking about naked sport bikes and the Gen1 Tuono. It's one of the things Aprilia got right!
The Japanese 600s were an extension of the JDM 400s and a way to leverage the engineering already done for those rather than a reaction to the Harley tariff.
If Honda brought back and modernized the VTX1800, I'd sell both my bikes for it
Best bikes ever made.
I’d keep my 1800f3 but would sell a few of my other bikes for one for sure!
@@kevinupton900 biggest selling regret for me
great podcast i purchased a honda fury when i wanted a cruiser because like you guys said harley sells a lifestyle honda sells a turn key custom that i never have to worry about
Spurgeon- look up the Kawasaki W1. This was Kawi's Kate 60s copy of the BSA A7. This is what the W650 would be based on in 2000. The W1 was a pretty good looking bike !
I know it’s only cosmetic changes but I wish we in North America could get the Meguro version of the W800. The current W800 is a more authentic 70’s Bonneville than the current line up from Triumph.
Not even a copy. It was a licensed copy from BSA. W650 has same power as my 800 with lighter weight and a kickstart. Emissions and M2 licensing requirements.
I love how the W650 and W800 still keep popping up in high side / low side.
-elated ‘21 W800 owner.
@@ruquik I know that there had been licensed copies of Harleys after the war but not BSAs (and other Brit bikes I assume?) . Thanks for the info!
@@jberry004 Before WWII as well, if I remember correctly.
The Aprilla Tueno was introduced in 2002. Honda had the 900 Hornet / 919 out in 2001, and it was a naked built out of the 98' CBR900RR Firblade.
Also, horsepower is a product of RPM. When you take a super bike engine and re-cam it for more lower/mid-range usable torque, you are absolutely going to lose the horsepower you'd get if the engine redlined a few thousand RPM higher. As someone who owned and loved a 919 for years, I can confidently say that the vast majority of riders aren't missing anything.
My naked still made over 100HP in a ~485lb wet bike, more than enough power to be stupidly dangerous but also would allow you to lug it around in 6th gear at 45mph in a way you never could with a 90's era Fireblade. The 919 was far more usable on the street than any contemporary race replica sport bike.
"Tuono"
The Reagan-Harley tariff was based on the H-D claim that the Japanese were ‘dumping’ motorcycles at severely reduced selling prices which was hurting Harley. So the Japanese big 4 just lowered the displacement from 750 to 699 with no serious loss in horsepower.
Japan's market was and IS extremely difficult for foreign companies to penetrate. The Reagan Administration wisely intervened to save thousands of American manufacturing jobs and the only American motorcycle brand that had already survived decades of losses of motorcycle brands. It was pretty easy to see that the Japanese Big Four had annihilated the British motorcycle manufacturers and were about to eliminate America's last manufacturer.
In retrospect, it was the usual historical cycle of trade barriers (Japanese) inviting trade barriers in return (American). In the same early 1980's, American steel companies were being destroyed by Japanese and Korean competitors. That market was too large to save through American trade barriers, so the relatively small size of the motorcycle market did much to save Harley-Davidson. Detroit was likewise not saved through trade barriers. So much American manufacturing was displaced by Asian competition in the 1970's and 1980's, only for China to do it all over again in the 2000's.
I bought a 2023 Kawasaki Vulcan S, specifically because i wanted a cruiser style bike, but didn't want a Harley. There's a market for people that want the low seat and comfort, but not the Harley lifestyle or the mortgage to pay for the bike.
If I can only have one motorcycle, then make it a Honda Blackbird.
Comfortable, smooth, more than quick enough.
They should bring back an old school Sport tourer in that style.
Spurgeon is already fully embracing dad-mode. "Who needs all that power?! Its ridiculous! No one needs it!" While ignoring the fact that the R1 still exists and makes all that power and is very commercially available.
i believe the point there was a difference between like 210hp and de-tuned "slow" bike with "only" like 160hp or smth along those lines. i also believe there's not so many people who actually use and can manage 160hp bike to its full potential, and still not on public roads.
@alexbaskov the point is not whether it's useful or not, the point is that they took 40 hp off a bike that is supposed to be a naked version of the R1. Not a nanny bike.
From about 1:00:00 in, missing the Honda hornet bikes.
I had an first Gen FZ-1, super reliable and 120 HP. The only thing I would have changed was the fork for an r1 fork.
Also, fair play not to the MT-10 not having the r1 motor until 2016
Also, super hawk erasure
Nobody in 1980 was cross shopping a 600 sport bike with a 1200 sportster. Japan was already making small displacement motorcycles for the Japanese market. I bought a 1983 GPZ1100 and I wasn't cross shopping it with a sportster.
So much interesting discussion. I'd say, while there's reason for frustration with the Japanese bikes, most people criticize them until they ride them. I bought a Suzuki I4 naked to back up my duc, and discovered a few things: It is better built and designed, there are no flaws to "ride around", and it is a joy to ride. Still love the duc, but...
Euros and Asian are judged by different criteria. I'd guess that must be as frustrating to the Japanese makers, as it may be for a consumer waiting for an update. If any of the big 4 made a bike to the reliability level of KTM, they would be laughed out of the room.
The Euros have mostly had to go for the niche of a niche approach, because they can't compete on ride-ability and manufacturing quality. Euros are good second bikes to scratch an itch, but as an only bike...you'll be driving your car a lot more than you like. The smallest Japanese maker - Suzuki - sells far more than all the Euros combined, and Honda sells about 15 times Suzuki. So they're doing something right.
While a Japanese I4 making 150hp seems hard to call detuned, I also think that the rise of the P-twin, indicates what people want: low end torque, and never having to rev beyond about 6K unless you're feeling frisky, and shifting is a burden to be endured.
I'd hate to be in marketing, People say what they think they want and then buy something else. Motus seems to be the poster boy for this. people said they wanted a bike with the best suspension, brakes, exhaust etc etc, and none of the nanny stuff holding back performance. Motus made that bike, and everyone bought a big fat soft BMW and cranked the traction control..
Aside: The NM4 and such, seems part of a Honda pattern started with the PC800 Pacific Coast, and their weird desire to make a "car motorcycle" - if that makes sense.Bless their pointy heads.
Aside: While, the original monster was a clever concoction, it wasn't that much of a performer, but leveraged Ducati mystique very well. It is now just another very expensive bike with mid range performance for its class.
Listened to the podcast, but had to come here to say that Spurg is crazy to choose a MT10 over a Tuono. Has he ever ridden one? OMG! The Tuono is a hoot and one of the most fun bikes I have ever ridden. Abhi is right, we don't buy or ride motorcycles to be reasonable or practical! The Tuono stirs the soul!!!!
Usually listen on the podcast but episodes like this with so many bikes being mentioned I’ve never heard of or maybe heard of but never seen, ya had to watch on here
My Favorite blunder was when Spurge called Abhi…Ari. I wish we could have seen the look on his face. 😂 I love this show. Thanks as always for the entertainment!
The rebel 1100T is a blunder. The hard cases are huge but don’t hold anything. There’s no large windscreen. No electronics. Passenger pegs and seat are extra. Brakes are AWFUL. It’s all around bad because it tries to be too much.
To Spurgeon's point at 22:30, couldn't agree more. I want to daily an inexpensive, classically styled bike with room for two plus gear. Metric cruiser/bagger all the way. Started on a VT500, then ACE 750, took a break to indulge sport/touring, then Nomad 1500 and currently Nomad 1700.
You could easily repurchase my 16 year motorcycle experience (with gear) for the price of a base '24 Road Glide. Unbelievable value, without question.
The whole time I was watching this, I was asking, “Why haven’t they mentioned the RE5!?” Finally at the end! Thanks to Spurg Señior!
42 yrs lic’d & owned 37 bikes & still own & ride a mk1 Le Mans, 1959 BSA, & a fury. That fury with great fwd’s is the best thing I’ve ever had. It doesn’t trash tires, FI, anti skid, starts every single freaking time & it’s just so damned easy to live with as a daily. It’s not speed master so comfy on the speed limit so no tickets. I’m 6’3 & it’s just a comfortable twin, dirt cheap to run being Honda & I don’t have to keep getting it picked up on a trailer
57:49 Back in the late 80s I had a 1986 Yamaha Fazer. It was a naked bike with a 700cc Genesis 5 valve engine with 0-60 in the low 3s and I had it up to about 140. Used to race my brother on his Interceptor 750 and beat him every time! They only made it for 2 years, and the styling was a little different, but they were ahead of the times on that one!
I remember reading motorcycle magazine tests of the CX650 Turbo when they came out and they gushed about them at the time. I always had my doubts.
The moment I heard that sound clip my brain went right to a Kawi Versys X-300. Those small 180° P-twins are hard to tell apart to me.
my guess was a Yamaha R3. purely cos i owned 2. they're great!
Zak, I don't know if it's available in the US, but the Fantic Caballero 700 is, in fact, a Yamaha 700 CP2 scrambler. It looks like a damn fine bike, too. And to back up Avi on his point about the US wanting power, I think the Yamaha Tracer 700 not being available there is a good point. Personally, I think the US market is just very different to the European and Japanese ones. But, I think that is also changing as gas prices go up and younger riders have less disposable income.
Not currently sold in the US, but a cool motorcycle.
And if you look at volumes, half of asia is riding Honda 125cc bikes dayly. There is 50 milion bikes registered in vietnam only. The US is a niche market.
In many countries a 400cc sportbike is considered a big bike. Mostly expats are riding bikes over 500.
Japanese manufacturers made V-twins (VTX's, Boulevards, etc.) because Harley charged *absurd* prices for their underpowered, overweight, too-loud, low-IQ fashion pieces. There was a lot of easily-grabbed financial headroom to equal/beat Harley at their design game, and do it for significantly less money. So they did.
I agree with Abhi re the MT10. From a pure buyers perspective, if there was a higher HP MT10 was there it would feel more special akin to how an R1 feels special. It also costs way more now than it did on release in 2016. It depends on the local market you are buying in of course.
This is why I love the Hayabusa. It still feels absolutely insane in 2024 and it's a brand new bike selling now. It feels.... bespoke, made with intentions that first birthed 20-30 years ago and are still relevant today. And I agree with Zack's point on teh Busa from the DR episode, that the next evo of the Busa should be more comfort + luggage but keep the absolute peach of an engine and drivetrain.
Sorry am a Busa fanboi.
Honda still experiments. Sure, some of their bikes come off as oddball flops but the ones that actually make it are incredible. The X-ADV 750 literally made a whole new category of adventure scooters that followed the craze, and who would've thought that a 1000cc (later 1100) car-like automatic adventure bike with proper off-road chops even had a market?
I started my cruiser lifestyle on a 2003 Harley-Davidson Road King Classic, and I absolutely loved that bike. However, the price, the weight, the cost of maintenance, all made me move to wanting a metric cruiser. I have a 2024 Honda Shadow Aero in mind. Even if my engine drops from 1450cc to 745cc... the weight, the maintenance, the price, it is all more attractive than just owning the Harley-Davidson name itself.
58:44 and then Yamaha made the FZ1, and it was good is very biblical 😂
As an S1000XR owner, I'm with Abhi. Give me *all* the power w/my comfort! 🙃
My favorite Honda risk was the 1989 FL400R Pilot. So ahead of it's time. I know it's not a motorcycle but it was on the showroom floor with motorcycles at a Honda motorcycle dealer.
At 5’8”, I have the same size issues with some bikes, but in reverse. I had my beloved Kawasaki Verses 650 lowered due to the stand-over height being just tall enough to be unsafe when stopped at a side sloping road. I lost some suspension travel, but it was perfect for train track crossings, broken pavement, or anything else city commuting threw at it. I loved riding it with a top case only, to keep the profile slim.
I miss that bike. I live less than 2 miles from the dealer, and I’m not at work today. I blame Revzilla for what is about to happen…
The biggest blunder by all the manufacturers is the lack of truly comfortable seating. My 1982 Honda CB900F is still the most comfortable bike in my 10 bike collection. My ST1100 is also,equally comfortable but it is too heavy for me to ride at age 76.
The premium Bonneville from 2017 to today is 1200cc and is a very nice bike to spend long days on.
Zack - just got a '23 SFV2 feb. 10th and it's stellar! Halfway through break-in period and limited to 6,000rpm. Looking forward to opening it up after reaching the mile-equivalent of 1,000km on the odometer. Bike feels great to ride, sounds great, looks great; dream come true for me :)
My personal experience with "Japanese Reliability" is opposite the conventional wisdom. I've been a motorcyclist for over 50 years, so here's my list of Japanese bikes I've owned with poor reliability:
1. 1972 Yamaha TX750 (Abhi referenced the TX500, but it was the TX750 that was problematic): The first model year (1972) had the balancer shaft positioned too close to the oil sump, so extended high RPM running would cause the oil to froth, leading to main bearing failure. The fix was simple (deeper sump - easily retrofitted to the '72 models), but the damage (to reputation) was already done.
2. 1978 Honda CX500: Cam chain tensioner problems - I rebuilt that engine twice with cam chain breakage (with different sets of part numbers each time).
3. 1983 Honda V45F Interceptor: Cam oiling problems - I put a new set of cam shafts into that engine at 20,000 miles (along with an aftermarket oil feed kit).
4. 1998 Honda SuperHawk; Cam chain tensioner problems - the bike is currently awaiting a rebuild in my garage (with 26,000 miles).
BTW, the two most reliable motorcycles I've owned:
1. 1975 Suzuki GT750; 46,000 miles with nothing but routine maintenance (tires, plugs, one final drive chain)
2. 1997 BMW R1100RS; 78,000 miles (and counting); nothing but routine maintenance (tires, and oil changes).
i do not get why the transalp does not come, at least as an option, with tubeless wheels . . .
$
I agree, I wish we had more a la carte options for bikes from oem. Better brakes, fully adjustable suspension, etc.
The bickering, the hyperbole, the opinionated "facts".... Just like three bench racing buddies.... that was fun!!! And to think this is the daytime version. I vote for an after happy hour, late evening version!
Re: the tariff timeline, reminded me of the Honda VFR line. That 750 was a hot performer and the dumped it down to a displacement under 700. Not a big Honda fan and, that gear driven top end was super cool. Also, the Elf model was interesting.
For 2 years, you couldn't buy a CRF 300 L without being on a 6 month waiting list. Do you think Yamaha made a blunder when they pulled the plug on the WR250R?
ohh such a good question!
@@JohannesDalenMC And how can we MAKE Yamaha bring it back.
I have a bike that is both a Japanese blunder and a naked bike that kept most of its performance. The naked version of the Hayabusa; B-King! Been riding over 15 years and over 150k miles and I've never seen one in the wild.
Glad Abhi jumped in on the subject of the Kawasaki W650, when Spurg mistakenly seemed to dismiss it, it's a brilliant bike with a rich heritage even it did'nt feature strongly in USA, I've had a W650 brilliant bike I'd have another in heartbeat.
I had 2 XN. 85 Suzukis . Once you knew it, it was a seriously good thing for its day.
Perfect example of not meeting the performance standard is the Versys 1000 SE LT+. They neutered the 1043 engine instead of letting it go and directly compete with the S1000XR. Was 20 minutes early on my opinion.
Hello !! you both are great , I loved this episode and thanks for what you do. One thing I have to say and I know its a bit sentimental to me because it was my first bike , I have ridden it across the country , it has seen many sand stone deserts/ocean views and is still my daily rider today running perfect but the 1998 Suzuki bandit 1200 is such a great sport touring bike.I know you mentioned it briefly and totally understand it is not the lightest bike but its bullet proof, runs forever, comfortable , fast ,easy to work on, looks good and can make dreams come true haha as I said it may not be able to hold up against the Aprilia but the Bandit deserves deeper consideration for a good touring bike. Again I'm bias and I know that but GIVE IT SOME LOVE ZAKSPURG !!!!!
54:21 that’s crazy. I could actually see the earthquake in the camera. I can see the building shake and the lighting change.
The rune wasn't a blunder at all. They knew it wasn't going to sell or live on.
It was an exercise.
I saw the MCN review of the Suzuki GX bike and put the dyno graph of the 05 GSXR against it and I asked why so much missing. The say it’s a XR competitor but that is 165 hp and the original 05 GSX was similar in power, 19 years ago, great engine then, just ok these days, so much for moving the game on.
They discussed both Turbo Bikes of the 80s and the Tariff on bikes over 700cc, but never put the two together. The turbos were a way of getting around the tariff, and something commonly done in Japan to get around engine size restrictions historically.
Glad to see my Honda CTX 1300 on this list. It’s really a pretty great bike, but looks like they passed around the design to each engineer to add their flair, without any communication between them
Yamaha's Star line was the japanese best effort at meeting the American market at its level. Fantastic bikes, huge parts catalog, it just needed a customer that didnt care"what people think", and they got them they sold pretty well. The metric cruser surge was a blast for salemen in the early 2000s.
I bought a Vulcan 900 Custom last year. Brand new out the door with Extended warranty (that i probably didnt need) It was around $8500. To get something in a Harley or Indian I would've paid Easily 5-6K more if not double. I have a blast on the Vulcan. I take it to and from work and get out on the backroads when I can. Living in Wisconsin I get maybe 5-6 Months to ride if I am lucky. I feel way better when I see this bike sitting in my garage over winter than i would paying the extra cost for a Harley. I get the Harley die hards. Great motorcycles and have grown up around Harley's all my life. However, Japan is killing them when it comes to affordability. Also financing through Kawasaki at the time was 1.99%. Harley was at 7.99%.
Is interesting to listen to the conversation from her in Australia. As USA was "arm" of these companies we still had every size of engine here throughout he 80's. But yes I remember the turbo bikes etc. An interesting concept, but ahead of tech of the time I guess. We loved the mid 80's Katana 750 and 1100 of the era.
I couldn't get a T7 so I ended up with a tuareg. Wouldn't switch now but they definitely missed out on a lot of t7 sales from dealers not having them.
The W800 is still available. It’s too expensive and the seating design is ergonomically very uncomfortable which is why I got rid of my W650. The W800 had the same frame.
Agree with Zach and Abhi’s answer to Dan’s question.
I laughed SO hard when you guys talked about the SCR950! I'm a fairly new rider and I only own a Honda Ruckus and my SCR950 that I traded my Fiero for... I've had a gut feeling that the bike sucks ever since I've owned it and I've always considered selling it. What really makes me hold onto it is that I've never gotten so many compliments in my life until I started riding that bike. It's also so gorgeous that I can't bring myself to let it go just yet..
FWIW - The SCR950 isn't a badd little bike to bop around town on. I actually had a fun time with it once I got out of the press launch situation where they had us on sandy roads and super winding corners. Cruising it across the desert and out to Joshua Tree for my "Chasing Gram Parsons' ghost across the desert on an SCR950" article with a duffle strapped to the back reminded me of why I love simple little bikes like my Bonnie. My biggest gripe was that Yamaha's marketing was all wrong.
But if you like that bike, man, ride it proudly! Who cares what some knuckleheads on the internet think!
I grew up with the 70s and 80s japanese LTD style cruisers and so I love them. In the U.K. and europe you saw a hell of lot more of those than Harleys. They had their own kind of American cool but could still be ridden on country roads and have fun. All we knew of choppers in rural England was Easy Rider and those bikes would have been terrible to ride.
HAHA! I got that engine sound guess pretty much right away! It did throw me off a little with the sound, couldn't quite tell single vs twin, but that starter sounded familiar, and I did take one on a demo ride, so i've heard it before.
A lot of us lust over bikes that are offered in other markets but there are a couple problems. One is that we always think we want something we can't have. The other is that, when different or interesting bikes do come stateside, we don't buy them. These companies know their markets. They spend a lot of time and money on it. They might gamble on something once in a while but the margins aren't there to justify it unless they are very confident it will sell.
Honda X-ADV adventure scooter is a bike I can't get to keep my Ducati XDiavel S company. Makes sense to us older guys who don't want a 37" seat height ADV and simply want a twist and go bike for around town.
Re: Blunder #4 - Suzuki built a more comfortable version of the Hayabusa (the B-King) but nobody bought it
Turbo technology today is far cry from what was going on in the 80's. Now there are 1, 500 hp LS powered cars and Chris Moore has developed a 400 hp Hayabusa. Most cars today are 250 hp 2 litre four cylinder cars.
I think you missed out suzuki rf900r bike was great to ride engine bulletproof the back-end needed a little better styling
Tuono v4 1100 is 42hp down on power compared to RSV4, so Aprilia is doing the same thing as Yamaha and until this year so was BMW. It just was a norm to put less powerful and more torque oriented version of a superbike engine to a naked bike. Ducati Street Fighter changed that. Nowadays 180hp+ is the least you can do in this category.
I like my middleweights more, but hey to each his own, I guess.
The biggest 1970’s blunder was YAMAHA’S TX 750 twin and its chain driven counter balancer system.
The Star Bolt would have been nice if they made it more visually attractive, improved the suspension and made it chain drive. It needed more ground clearance too.
I like how in the same conversation Abhi is furious that Yamaha put out a detuned MT10 while the R1 exists, and does not counter the point that the S1000XR is a raucus blast to ride. S1000RR had 193hp when I bought my 158hp S1000R in 2015. Not a single moment did I feel the bike was de-tuned. They added torque to the rev-band and it was immensely more comfortable than the S1000RR. 35 horsepower less did not make me feel neglected. S1000XR makes 170hp.
Would the V4 Street fighter be fun to ride? Maybe. But perhaps it's geared too tall and is too twitchy, hence why the V2 is Zach's preference.
The MT10 issue: Why don't they release an MT10 SP with the full fat engine?
Then the budget entry level MT10 can still be a lower power version with lesser suspension, brakes etc and an SP could carry all the gear over from a R1.
I love the Rune. It looks like some of the bikes from the old Cyberpunk 2010 RPG that came out in the 90s
Two current Honda UK blunders:
1) Not bringing over the CT125. The US got it despite 125s barely being a thing, here it is a huge proportion of the new bike market by volume, we have no Japanese 125 dual sports, we love Honda Cubs and there are two current British youtubers who are famous for travelling the world on Honda Cubs. Instead we get the ST125 Dax which nobody ever asked for.
2) continuing to sell the CB300R and not swapping in the GB350. The CB300R is basically the worst A2 bike, Honda has multiple 500cc bikes in the same class that are vastly superior. The GB350 meanwhile is a legit contender for the Royal Enfield 350 bikes with slightly more power and Honda build quality. Loads of dad bikers would buy them here.
My gut said sounds like a single at idle but a twin in the upper rev range. Didn't know the r3 was a twin. I learnt something.
So happy HSLS is back! Would love to hear what they have to say about the new street orientated middleweight sport bikes coming out recently. With the rs660 and now the new Daytona 660 it sort of feels like the Japanese are being left behind (r7 and gsx8r seem kind of meh.) What do you guys think the best middleweight is for the street? Honestly kind of leaning towards a used Ducati SS.
The 85 vf1000r is a great bike for the time it was made I owned one in 2012 and I loved it