Kohdok Talks about Disney Lorcana for a bit...
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- At this year's D23 convention, Disney and Ravensburger announced a cooperative Disney Trading Card Game. Does this seem like the genre breaker they're billing it as, or is the game's target demographic not card players after all...?
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#Lorcana #disney #tradingcards #tcg
*Making a new TCG to compete with the Big Three*
*Only mentions MTG and Pokemon*
And so, Yu-Gi-Oh remains unchallenged
where is my yugioh ripoff I want a new card game that has unga bunga massive combos, foodgates, and hand traps
@@TheRedScizor Ah yes foodgates, those damn cards that prevents me from eating.
@@TheRedScizor Working on it, but it will have color/Class restrictions lol
I really don’t wanna Disney’s lorcana to kill magic and other TCG’s
@@nehuenmutiozabal6339 cringe
Ryan Miller is also behind Bandai's Chrono Clash System, meaning he designed 90% of Digimon. Universal Fighting System / UFS / Universus / My Hero Card Game is also his work.
wow didn't know that, ufs being one of my favorite game system of all time, I will wait and see for lorcana.
@@jmlchaosdragon i don't really play ufs, but i did get the my hero academia starter. It's a neet system, seems good
@@j453 ufs and mha are pretty much the same. Mha only remove a couple of keyword ability and the ability to play different version of the same character, but except that the two game play the same. Mha ccg was more of a soft reboot to help new player get in the game.
When i tried out digimon it felt a lot like duel masters from my experience amd now that explains it.
The current digimon?
Or the other 2 that failed within a year of launch?
Also, never heard of universal fighting system.
So neither of those adds any optimism to my opinion of how lorcana is gonna go.
No Lightning McQueen deck, no buy. We demand Mater combo FTKs.
Ngl, I am interested to see the game and how it actually plays. However looking at the cards we have now, at least half of them are going to be power crept immediately. I just have a feeling, especially looking at the Robin Hood card. I think this game will succumb to the two year curse mainly because Disney becomes impatient if something doesn't take off immediately and a card game feels like something they can absorb the cost of.
However I'm going to try and remain optimistic about it.
Yup, I imagine that this card game will fail for the exact same reasons the Disney Infinity figurine video game did. The actual game mechanics will be mediocre and shallow, the price will be too high for the average consumer, they'll flood the market with product to combat scalpers which will tank secondhand value, and then they'll impatiently cancel the product line after a few years because it's not meeting unrealistic sales projections despite still being profitable.
what did you not like about the robin hood card?
@@McCrispyBread here's how I see it so far, considering that we don't have the official rules yet. It looks like the most expensive cards, like Maleficent will generally cost 9 ink. Robin Hood is 6. Not too high but pretty high considering Tailor Mickey is 8.
Hood's first ability is okay but relies on the opponent to have more cards than you and even then you only draw one card. His second ability sounds kind of weak and doesn't give him protection on the opponents turn. This card just feels like it'll work for the early sets but then be powercrept by the second set. Something with Hood's abilities will come along but be cheaper.
So watching this nearly half a year after Lorcana's release, I can say the predictions have been wrong so far. Lorcana has taken a decent sized chunk of the organised play times in my LGS and is already beating all the Bandai card games in terms of attendance. In Ireland, it's probably the 3rd biggest by this metric after MTG and Yugioh right now. This is surprising to me because before the release, my predictions were somewhat similar to this video but now I think the determining factor for success with these games is the IP recognisability. Even if it's a cynical re-skin of the Duel Masters system, they're using the skin of Disney characters and that's all that matters. Most of the players of this game were likely not card game players previously and have no appreciation for better systems. It's the same with One Piece. I've played it a couple of times and it's not a great game. The Digimon TCG by the same company is a better game but because One Piece is the more popular property, One Piece is destroying Digimon in the US market.
So my observation is this:
For TCGs based on well established brands (Digimon, One Piece, Lorcana), the player bases become immediately dominated by fans of those brands and not people who have an understanding of TCG theory and whether the game is executing on the theory well. This is evident by the fact that Lorcana and One Piece are clones of Duel Masters and Kaijudo with no real innovation on that system but are still succeeding where their progenitor games failed. Essentially those people will play any garbage wearing the skin of their favourite IP and so the two year curse might not be a concern for the companies.
For TCGs without an established brand upon their release (Flesh & Blood, Sorcery TCG), the growth is slow and the two year curse is a real danger because the people likely to pick up these games are acutely aware of what makes a game good and they won't stick around unless the mechanics themselves offer something that appeals to them.
Over here in the US and since its launch the game has consistently held events in even game stores that only ran nothing other than magic and pokemon.
Its deffinitely not a clone of duel masters, nor does it really have anything to do with duel masters. I dont play the game but knowing how it works its deffinitely its own thing. Win con is entirely different, its based around generating "lore counters" through various means and shields arent a thing. The resource system is also based around discarding cards from your hand to generate "ink" equal to the cost of the card discarded rather than tapping things.
@@CatManThree I'm pretty sure the resource system is a simplified version of Duel Masters. I watched a Lorcana tutorial a while back and to make a resource they place any card from their hand face-down and it effectively becomes a land. The reason Duel Masters was more complicated was because the cards had different resource values and once placed as a 'land', it tapped for it's particular value whereas the Lorcana 'lands' always tap for 1.
But the lore counter win condition is a big change on typical win conditions. I believe they did it to make the game more child friendly as there's no dying in the game, no violence. Disney probably didn't want it to be understood that their characters were killing each other in the game. But every feature of this new win condition can be mapped to Magic life.
Lorcana counts up to 20 lore counters whereas Magic counts down from 20 life. Lorcana could just as easily have made it so that both players start at 20 lore counters and you're trying to deplete your opponents lore with attacks. The direction you go to win is more or less a superficial change when the mechanic used to get there is identical in both games.
To get lore counters in Lorcana, your characters have to go on quests which means tapping them and declaring you're intent quest. It's basically declaring an attack that can't be blocked. Then your opponent has the opportunity on their turn to 'challenge' your tapped characters with theirs meaning you compare stats in combat and something gets destroyed like most other TCGs. So there are major differences compared to Magic combat because blocking doesn't exist in Lorcana but I would say the Lorcana combat system is most identical to Digimon and One Piece as both of those games have no blocking but do have the 'challenge' mechanic which they call attacking. Those games give you the option to either go face or attack tapped Digimon/characters.
So I guess my point is that what seems novel about Lorcana is actually the same mechanics from other games but re-worked to seem more child friendly and much of the mechanics are more simple versions of what was taken from the other games. But I could concede the Duel Masters point because now that I think about it, Lorcana is the most like One Piece compared to any other game. They both have simplified basic land resources and an identical combat system but then Lorcana takes Magic's 20 life and Duel Master's method of placing the resources.
@@ilyafoskin The flavor behind how the game works is centered around players creating their own disneys stories and completing them through lore counter generation. I dont think it has much to do with replacing life given the game appears to be built around it, with numerous card effects which play around with lore counters to use instead of just combat. Lore counters are a resource you generate and win with.
Double checking, youre right about the resource system being just the one from duel masters. Tbf though the duel master's mana system is pretty effective and I dont think its particularly bad that other card games borrow it.
Of course it was a bad take, this channel only has shitty takes
@@Gwinnmusic I think he has great takes usually. Sometimes he's wrong but even I thought as he did about Lorcana back then. With the context of the last year I was just being objective in my comment
Fun fact: Elsa is very similar to Queen of Ice in Magic. Both are 3 mana 2/3s with an ability that taps creatures down. In fact, the effects themselves are very very similar to magic effects in their type of effects and syntax with slight wording differences (tap vs exert for instance). Gameplay wise I expect it to be better than Kaijudo because it copies Magic so much, but the question is whether there's market demand for a Magic clone with a Disney skin.
You know what this game REALLY should have been? Using Disney characters to build a starlight wish. Lets say you gain 7 Dreams, you win the game. Your Disney Hero cards in the game focus on gaining and protecting you Dreams. while you attack your opponent with cards of Disney Villains. Technically the bad guys can't win, the heroes do. Very Disney. Immediately you have a unique combat system opportunity that's somewhere between Pokemon and Kaijudo. Focus on more of a storyteller angle, include stats like pure-heartedness, bravery, intelligence, might, speed, charm. Things that let the kids do some basic Top Trumps stuff, provide some lore nerd fanservice, allow players who're casual collectors to engage more with Disney's character-centric appeal. The gameplayt could honestly have a slight "minature (and very light) RPG" angle to it, something that allows for mildly complex interactions presented like story beats. Maybe some cards work for smart characters, etc. In fact, maybe you could use those stats as the card clorations. Certainly sounds more interesting than what they're going for, and picking a social tribe would be interesting. Of course they should all be able to get along, since this is a Disney game and cooperation is key. And if we're doing color tribes for stats it should probably be a Rainbow of 7, + perhaps special White cards. An interesting angle would be having each card be able to both be played as a card and silmultaniously be usable as a mana source: Say you have the card on board, you can tap it to use an effect OR to pay for another card you play, with each card providing multiple colors of mana as indicated by a small rainbow ring of orbs. Cooperation brings in your big guns as the story progresses, characters work together to accomplish things, and you can even get the Villains to cooperate with and team up with the Heroes! All this in 5 minutes, imagine how much you could accomplish with a year of dedicated R&D!
That's literally just Key Forge.
@@GeneralNickles
I was thinking Redemption.
Unique phrasing exists for trademarking/copyright reasons. The house of mouse is famous for its legal team, they want to make sure no-one will co.e after then AND that they can go after anyone that tries to mess with their product.
every single game has "draw a card" effect lmao Wizards of the coast is famous for litigation (tap was a trademark for a while, Magic ruler became spell ruler etc.) if they could have sued someone for using "draw a card" it wouldn't be in so many games. Tierno and ancestral recall are the same exact card, pot of greed is almost identical
@@joplin4434 Good news! You can see in the video that Lorcana uses "draw a card" for draw a card and Kohdok was mistaken.
@@tsilver33 It also uses "challenge" instead of "attack", and "chosen" instead of "target". I won't even mention the stupidity of Mickey and Robin Hood having the same keyword with different reminder text.
@@symmetrybokte They have different reminder text because the normal reminder text doesn't function on Robin Hood. "Only characters with Evasive may challenge this character." will *never* apply to Robin Hood, as his ability only activates during your own turn. So characters without evasive will be able to attack him. The actual keyword has the same rules either way.
And Challenge may well make more sense than attack. Not everything in disney is focused on killing each other. "Remmy attacks Elsa" doesn't make much sense, it sounds like the ratmans gonna come at her with a steel chair. But 'challenge' implies that Remmy out-maneuvers or otherwise tricks Elsa to gain the upper hand, I could buy that.
As for chosen, it's less jargony than target. It's easier to grok for anyone who isn't already knee-deep in TCGs.
@@symmetrybokte Honestly, the Robin Hood example kinda shows that the designers actually seem to have put a lot of thought into the game and how players will learn it. They didn't just dump the standard reminder text onto Robin Hood and call it a day, they took the time to write him a specific version of that reminder text to better illustrate how it works to a new player.
"Only characters with evasive may challenge this character." A new player may read that and think "Why on Earth would I care about that? It's my turn, my opponent can't challenge me." But Robin Hood spells out why it's useful instead, it lets him challenge characters with evasive.
Man, I had ALL of these thoughts!! People asked if I was concerned with making a TCG since Disney was getting involved... And I just kinda had to chuckle.
My LGS owner said "I don't know if you'll make it when Final Fantasy and My Hero didn't make it," and I have to say... That's because people can smell a cash grab and/or a magic clone.
I'm hoping to have ours go straight into unlimited print if at all possible. I hate this scalper stuff. They're... Game pieces, mate!
In both FF and MH, devs and distribution really dropped the ball. MH organized play was an absolute mess. They’re still trying, sure. But yeah I don’t see much life left myself. Shame too, it’s a really cool system.
@@VanillaSoup I'm pulling for them. They literally founded their company to make UFS because the people who were making it got out of the business, and they've built a lot of goodwill on Kickstarter (setting aside the HORRIBLE design of the Mega Man board game).
Any info or link about your TCG? Always interested in seeing what folks are working on--some good stuff out there!
Great video as always, Kohdok. The part that makes the most sense to me is that it looks a lot like Mtg/duelmasters breed. It is astounding how many games - new and old - that claims to be very different than the big 3 and are actually not.
I heavily agree on what was mentioned about tcg's only focusing on Magic, tbh, I would love to get into more TCG's that take from Yugioh, there is a reason that is the only one of the big 3 I still regularly play and enjoy, and there is no other card game like it in the market
the problem for me is that each game is limited to five colors, as if making 7-8 fractions was a huge challenge
Except that YGO sucks because it was never designed to be played, it was designed to be written about.
@@Iceykitsune Nah ygo is the best tcg.
@@supremacyecg68157-8 is quite a lot harder than 5 my guy
5 is kinda the sweetspot, because the more factions you add the harder it'll be to think about "so what does THIS one uniquely do"
I'd love to see you make another video about lorcana now that we're 2 months away from release. Enough cards are out right now and people are able to play it regularly through tts and other online simulators, and it's actually really fun, especially when played in multiplayer mode with 4-6 players. They are already well into set 7s development with over 1000 cards complete, so we know there's going to be some longevity to the game, too.
The moment I saw that the cards had the Hero and Villain tags I was already a little worried weither this game does the whole "you must make either a hero or a villain deck, and a hero deck must fight a villain deck."
If this games does that, it's gonna fail garunteed.
It could be that some cards are able to interact only with one of those subtypes of cards. Let's hope for the best.
Highly unlikely. Games that do that put special attention to those keywords, generally in a seperate part of the card entirely. (See, SW Destiny) Instead, its just randomly sandwhiched in with the rest of the mechanicless keywords for other cards to check for later. Until we hear otherwise its a pretty good bet thats not gonna be a requirement, Id genuinely be shocked if it were.
Android Netrunner did pretty ok with a similar mechanic(~6 year run), but that's more an exception than anything.
@@hecksnek6158 6 years, and arguably still counting! Such a fan favorite its got a huge community that still produce new sets and run organized play events.
@@hecksnek6158 Android Netrunner was also FFG's flagship LCG, so you knew exactly what cards you were getting in each pack, and players needed both Runner and Corp decks for tournaments.
Think you went a little to harshly for a game we dont know anything about, we dont even know how to play. Ryan Miller has made many successful board games and card games and knows what gamers want in a game.
With the promos, they will be in the 1st set so players dont need them. Buying them now just gets them to you early and they man not even be playable. The only difference with these and the set release is the D23 stamp at the bottom.
I am excited for this game, just reading the card effects I can tell a bit on how the game has interactions and look forward to seeing more.
This seems like a rare miss. You mention it's just going to be kaijudo but we have no confirmation on any kind of rules outside of the card. Most of the video is talking about scalping and flipping without mentioning that all the cards are going to be in the main sets just without the D23 set and foiling. They are also going to print this product again just without the D23 stamp at the bottom.
Sure one of the head dev's track records may not be great but there is a LOT of reaching and assumptions going on and some, likely unintentional, misinformation.
the game system seems faiirly simple and indeed copied from mtg. Elsa is a straight up ripoff of a magic card, evasion is just flying, the power and toughness with a mana cost to cast, tapping.
The issue is that the main sets will probably be scalped, not these extremely expensive sets that have already been scalped. If anything it's like the much maligned secret lairs only without the benefit of knowing the rest of the cards lol
@@joplin4434 until we know the mechanics, that's all speculation. We think Elsa will be the same, but we don't even know the first thing about the rules.
@@GrievelornTCG it is the same effect lmao for 3 mana tap a creature that doesn't untap the next turn. Same power and toughness too lmao
We know the mechanic of evasion and exert, they were printed as reminder text and they are flying and tap, respectively.
@@GrievelornTCG have you read the card? Reading the card explains the card
@@joplin4434 Sure, but reading the card doesn't give us the context of the entire rule set. On the surface they look they same, but until we know the rules everything is speculation. And my point isn't even that it doesn't seem the same. It's that we are just assuming the entire rule set because of the people who worked on it and 7 cards
the art for this is so pretty though, shame its for a disney game of all things, i just cant justify giving disney money even if theyre offering "kill la kill" scissor blade mickey lol
I don't know at what point this happened, but it feels like your videos talking about card games new or old have turned into you praising the ones you like and crapping on the ones you don't. Instead of offering at least a somewhat balanced critique, which I feel you use to do a better job at.
While guilty committing several of the Sins at least the artwork is kinda original
Do we know enough to know what sins is committing? We don't really know any of the rules. We do know that the cards are standard size, and with Disney being a entertainment megacorp, it's got a deep well of source material to pick from.
@@Stinkoman87 true i guess its not fair to judge till it comes out
Haha thank you for taking a shot at MetaZoo’s stupid naming conventions for things like drawing a card.
The game is completely dead in my country and the ones surrounding it. Here and there a dad asks on message boards where to buy it for his kids and that's it. The shops don't have it, you have to buy it from scalpers or from shops so far away the shipping cost is almost as equal as the exuberant price of the sets (regular decks go for 20-30€ while the "giftable" starter set goes for around 60€, in some it goes even for 100+€, the prices are insane). The closest you can get to a Lorcana product in local shops is their official sleeves, so you can sleeve hot air in them. One Piece managed to stay afloat somehow, but Lorcana, that bombed here.
I've been getting back into Card Games recently, and I want to buy Lorecana cards as Collector's Pieces. The gameplay doesn't look promising in the slightest, but I like the Robin Hood card and my family would love the rest of the cards in base set. These are less to be played, and more to be sleeved & top loaded to look at and admire the art of.
Actually, I think Kaijudo / Duel Masters would have taken off better if the IP had been less "out there". They were fun games on their own, easy to learn and rarely one-sided, just weighed down because... well, WTF is an "Explosve Fighter Ucarn"? The crappy anime didn't care, why should I?
Think about the Star Wars CCG back in the 90s - it did really well because of brand recognition, despite horrible card balancing, and was VERY popular for quite a while. It died because rules-bloat made an alredy-complex game too complicated for new players to get into - new players that just wanted to play fun games with familiar faces. Being a massive simplification to the overly complex Magic system, Lorcana as a DM-clone absolutely COULD have the wings necessary to be a lasting game, assuming they can avoid the pitfalls pointed out at the end of the video (scalpers, over-hyping, etc.).
Maybe if they release expansions slower, too - every 4-6 months instead of every 2-3 - they'll give collectors and players more room to breathe and not feel like there's too much power-creep and shark-jumping to keep up with, which could also help the longevity of the product as they're less likely to dump unplayable filler and broken cards due to lack of R&D playtesting time.
Your comment about the game play being a rinse and repeat of MTG/Pokémon is spot on. This is why I’ve been liking Flawed TCG so much. The game play is similar enough to Magic that it is not completely foreign to a card game player, but it is very much unique and the strategy required to play is completely different from any other TCG I’ve seen, definitely different from “the big 3”.
Tbf the niche of "Magic-like game but without the limitations of Magic's early design quirks(such as the difficulty of replacing lands & HP with Duel Masters' resource and shield system)" might be somewhat viable. Though if it's a lazy Kaijudo rework...
But hey, YGO violated many of the Deadly Sins of TCG. Let's see if the Disney marketability works as effectively...
So, not related to the main subject matter but about the point you make starting at 3:12 I'm wondering what sort of resource system you could use in a new game that _would_ shake up the market. Yu-Gi-Oh! doesn't have a true resource system and tends to be fast paced combos so _not_ having a resource system isn't really an answer. And if we branch out into digital cardgame then Hearthstone has already done the steadily increasing but caps after a time resource system so I'm not really sure what could be left. Maybe if you had a separate deck of cards for your resources and they had different values so there would be variability on it? That's really my only thought on how you could "Drink from a different well" as was said.
I'm really curious about ideas on this end.
My main game is dragonball super and your resource system is similar to duel masters where your cards ypu play double as your energy that you charge once per turn before your main phase. And some mechanics are a bit similar to duel masters like blockers but beyond that it feels like a hybrid of many games. The leader mechanic is much like the commanders of edh and you have a combo system similar to vangaurd.
Have a game that doesn't revolve around reducing life points. Or that doesn't revolve around monsters fighting. Or uses attributes other than Red/Blue/Green/Black/White/Gray.
I mean, we've seen games do DARING things like have the combat involve no monster cards at all, or involve gathering victory points, or use the colors to distinguish card type rather than attribute.
digimon has shared resource system, wixoss has single usage resource system, pokemon has attachable resource system, flesh and blood has it's own unique system, there is so many ways you can do resources
I feel like your 3 outcomes for Lorcana is just a trusim for any collectible, especially one built on familiar franchises. I dunno, it's kinda like saying "If I flip this coin, it will either a) lands on heads, b) land on tails, or c) land on it's side". Your point about the scalpers heavily affected amiibo and Nintendo still makes those and they seem way easier to get despite scalpers. Your point of the game just failing is true for any product and your point about them overproducing cards is also true for any collectible product. I mean, it just seems like the possibility of the game... you know...succeeding is just pure cynicism since, at least from impression from the video, nobody really knows anything about the game including their marketing and distribution plan.
I know I'm looking forward to try the game out.
I have a 4th guess as to the fate of lorcana. Self competition. Disney would have 2 games that focus on cards. Lorcana may go the way of dungeon dice monsters, where lorcana is competing against villainous (which already has 3 different starter boxes), as dungeon dice monsters competed against yugioh.
And games that battle theirselves...
When I heard about this game it seemed like a lot of people had nothing but positive things to say about the game. It's refreshing to hear a different opinion.
I can't wait for the zoo deck to just be called sora
I don't think selling 300 50$ items is Disney trying to cash in. That's nothing. If they were really trying to cash in on the card speculation bubble they would have dropped more and not wait a whole year from announcement.
I'm not sure it's going to just be Kaijudo.
It looks like it has some sort of different win condition.
Love the analysis!
Sooo... this is Duel Masters 3.0 😅This game got "2 years curse" before started?
Villainous has potential, they should concentrate on that.
Adding a page to your chapter? Chroma: Bloom and Blight already use similar terminology, but they lean far more heavily into the story telling aspect.
I think metazoo might be sticky there.
Great video
7:24
the scalpers are a bad breed thats for sure, just like scammers, but then again if there wasnt a market for it these leeches could never have prevailed, a local game store here in poland complained about these scalpers buying up all the one piece booster pacs except for all the starters, so now they have like 3000 mostly crappy common and uncommon cards in the back where ppl play in where they dumped it all, yes it was good for me getting all those cards for free (in prague u had to pay for lorcana and SWU cards) but still, u can make a deck, have a decent play, but forget about everything else, i think there should be a roof limit how many cards u could buy a day like the first weeks or month after a release or so, like maybe max one starter set and two boosters pr. day, pr.customer, and then sell it normally after the first weeks of craze whore off...now its almost impossible to get one piece and SWU booster packs OR starter decks anywhere...
Despite the negativity of this video, I am still really curious about the game and mechanics. Always looking for something new
This will age like milk.
So as an indie developer I'm curious, if not MTG/Duel Masters, etc, what other well would you recommend we drink from?
I made a whole video about it.
There's Yugioh...
Agreed. Where is the innovation?
I'm gonna hold my breath until I see the Starter decks and test the game by myself, so far I don't see nothing wrong on it but nothing very bright in it either for the artwork
I wonder how did this age...
I love judgy Centurion - a true son of Dorn
There were 900 card sets were available, not 300. They sold 300 a DAY.
How much does it help the image? (I'm asking since 900 is more but only just.)
never underestimate the power...of the dark side...
Thank you
So, pardon my opinion but, if you're making a TCG to compete with the Big Three and make it so your game plays exactly like one of the Big Three, *are you really competing?*
sCaLpErS oh give me break
10 bucks says it's going to die at the 1st week of it's release.
New and unique mechanics?... Have you heard of Omni TCG? Cough cough, wink wink ;)
These guys only know how to get money out of rich people to fund the printing and shipping. Not make successful cardgame
With the number of Disney adults and cardboard collectors out there these days, I'm not entirely sure the gameplay quality matters as much as it would in other games (though it will still at least have to be playable). I could see this competing more with the collectible side of Pokemon rather than competing with gameplay from any of the big 3. It will be interesting to see if the launch contains any super rare alt art holo foil whatever cards.
It's strange, isn't it? When a TCG exists for the sake of revenue, it feels soulless. Yet the TCG model is solely for business purposes. This game could just as easily be an Expandable Card Game and be fine. I wonder how some TCGs toe the line between being cash-grabby gambling and genuinely fun and worthwhile.
You've made really good points about the magic-likes. I'm a Disney adult though so I will be playing
Except for those symbols in the lower right of the cards, it's so much like magic that I feel I could be playing those cards without even knowing the rules. And to be frank, if those were magic cards, they would be pretty boring.
Hmmm a company that has already tried trading card games twice and failed is going to try a third time. I would press "X" to doubt whether I knew it was Disney or not...
Digimon is honestly the best new card game to come out in the last few years. That's the game I would bet has the greatest chance of keeping up with the big 3 in the long run. Definitely not Lorcana. This ain't it.
I don't like the ide of Lorcana. This really reminds me of the video of the deadly sin of making games based on movies. The game will likely be the typical shovelware crap. That is not going to win people over in the long run. Disney mainly makes movies. So that won't make for a good trading card game. To make matters even worse, Disney movies are very simple by nature. This is done to gain a massive mainstream family audiences. I don't mean to bash Disney movies themselves. I am a really big fan of them. I just don't think there is a good fit. Each individual movie is really low on content. There is no way one could squeeze out a bunch of cards from a single Disney movie.
The video on games based on movies explained the problem of Star Wars. Star Wars seems like a solid brand with a consistent image. It started out as a movie series, but it did expanded into other products. The video did explained that Star Wars was not consistent enough to make one TCG to resonate with all or most fans. It has tried to make a tcg several times and failed. I did get a taste of the variety. The original movie trilogy was a straightforward adventure story with clearly designated good and evil sides. However the prequel trilogy veered away from this significantly. There is a lot of messy politics, and the sides are not so clear cut. There is more intrigue and less hack-and-slash. Maybe this shift is partly why the prequel are hated so much. It is a big alienation risk, and it turned to a massive failure.
You know what would be worse? It would be a TCG based on all the Disney movies. Disney movies are all over the place. There is a lot of variety. Some of them focus on magic and fairy tales. Some focus on talking animals. Some focus more on classic literature. The Experimental Era of the 2000s got really wierd with all the movies about sci fi. The best sci fi movie of the time was Lilo and Stitch. Each movie is in its own seperate universe completely separate from other movies. Only sequels and remakes have an actual connection. This works just fine in movies. Movies are typically watched one at a time. They also make a nice variety. Trying to cram it all in a single card game would be a nightmare. How the heck is one sopposed to make any design situations when so many characters are too diverse to even fit together. It is just a mess. I think it would be better to be like the big three and just have lots of characters in the same universe.
I have a nitpick. Elsa is my favorite Disney character. Why is her card purple? This doesn't make sense to me. I don't know the game in detail yet, so I don't know the justification. However it seems odd to me. Elsa would fit blue the best. She has ice powers, and she wears blue dresses. Why she gets purple instead, I have no idea. It really bothers me. MTG has a set based on fairy tales, called Throne of Eldraine. That set actually has a card just like Elsa. This is Queen of Ice. I like how this card fits with the character. The card is actually a blue card. Yay! There is a mechanic to permanently tap opponent creatures. That is very fitting. One is that the character can use a frozen state to immobilize and therefore "tap" opponents. Another is that this mechanic fits the defensive role that defines the mechanics of blue.
Pump & Dump
the worst part is that all these new card games focus on the 1 v 1. they need to focus on a commander style of game out of the box.
.
also I like villainous, marvel was terrible and started wars theme is just boring.
At least metazoo is cheap lol
That game is absolute shit. B they reskinned Magic, patched the mana system and called it a day
This whole situation is kinda sad because I think Walt Disney would have loved the idea of trading card games, but... not like this.
Magic the Gathering and its consequences have been a disaster for trading card game design
Well, "trading card games" wouldn't be a thing at all without Magic: the Gathering...
This feels like the kind of project that Disney could artificially push in its first year, and have a national tournament (within the Disney parks of course) that convinces people its more popular than it actually is
Reminds me of a certain other new TCG…
im getting artifact vibes.
@@nmr7203 MetaZoo
The Overwatch strategy!
now that I read all the cards, the most disappointing thing to me is that I understood basically everything printed on the cards; besides the diamond icons, there's nothing there that left me wondering what it might be or how can it work
How...is that disappointing?
@@josevelajr means that the game is another magic clone with no unique universal mechanics
The diamond icons is the mechanically unique design decision that completely separates it from how magic is played
@@Jobri_TCG duel masters lol
I was just thinking pretty much the same thing after reading an article about it yesterday. Had no idea that the lead designer is the Kaijudo guy, but that certainly doesn't improve my opinion. Also having Ravensburger do your CCG is an...odd choice to say the least. They put out some decent board games including the very pretty, but underwhelming and terribly balanced Villianous, but they seem to mainly be a jigsaw puzzle company.
Honestly, I cant see option #1 coming to pass as Disney will do what it needs to to hype it into the stratosphere, but I agree that either #2 or #3 will be what comes to pass. I just don't see a future where this wrestles its way into becoming the fourth big game.
Also, "Disney Adults" (tm) tend to be some of the most terrible and self centered people you can ever meet. I can absolutely see a future where they buy up all the scalpers cards, thereby supporting the scalpers and keeping any cards out of the hands of kids who might play the game.
I suspect they're involved because they did Villainous, so they've already proven to Disney that they can make a decently successful Disney brand card game.
As annoying as all the scalpers are RUclipsrs who shit on everything new that comes to market, especially A YEAR before release. Let's see some gameplay and chase cards first, shall we?
7:08 THAT HITS HARD I CRIED WATCHING THAT SHORT
Looks like a cool concept, if it was made to be a game rather than a quick Kaijudo reskin for cash
.....I just want to play -Duel- Disney Masters. I would have loved this when I was a kid. My brother and I played Yugioh explicitly because of the TV show, so I would have loved to have had a Disney card game back then.
Will the gameplay be meh? Most likely. Will I still enjoy my Moral-Panic-Approved Magic the Gathering alternative? Heck yeah
It really is a difficult balancing act between printing a product to the ground and having product be bought out by the rudies of the world. Not having product be available is one thing, but having the expected value from a set be so far below what you're expected to pay for is a problem in of it self.
I'm a yugioh player and last year's tins were so awful after a few months, the printed the shit out of them, iirc they actually got to a point where their price per case was lower than they were on 6 months out on preorder. Hell after crossout designator got announced as a reprint in the 2022 tins they are a good 20 to 30 dollars below preorder rates.
Things being affordable on a secondary market is a good thing, but when they get that cheap buying product is heavily discouraged.
Wow. I'm surprised at the amount of cynicism in the video and the comment section.
I don't think a Disney card game should try to compete with or replace Magic, since the fanbases of Disney and Magic are so different. Disney fans are going to be more interested in a Disney TCG automatically and Magic fans aren't going to be swayed over by something with the Disney brand.
I may snatch a pack or two just to have fun little cards, but that's it
I know I had potential hope for the game, because it did something I know Magic does that knockffs don't: unique artwork and artist credit. I figured when it came out I'd get two starter decks, try to find someone to play with at least once, and then throw the decks in with the pile of board games to be played as-is and never upgraded.
Disney the Gathering!
$10 it also has unmixable attributes and set rotation from the start
How does one have set rotation from the start of a game...? 🤨
@@tsilver33 do they usually tell you upfront or its a last minute decision after you sink so much money into it that tell you the game has set rotation?
@@EleggGaming I genuinely cannot recall a tcg that said upfront itd have rotation. Im not saying thats a good practice, but I cant think of any.
@@tsilver33 ah I see, I've seen quite few examples that they implement set rotation after a minor inconvenience that can solve by a banlist/errata/rule change.
The unmixable atributes part has been disproven so that's 5$
the engergize system from magi nation is dying to be tried again I swear. Has any other card game tried something like that?
I pray for failure for this game! 🙏
The instant they named only pokemon snd magic of the big 3 the gameplay was doomed.
As much as it does still exist, it’s inarguable that yugioh relies the least on the cards being collectibles and it has a bigger proportion of the fanbase very competitively and gameplay minded.
I’d wager they decided which games to compare themselves against by just googling which games had cards at the highest prices. At any rate they’re not investing in a competitive experience, theyre investing in a collectible and expecting the competitive play to just magically appear.
So much of this video is legitimate criticism and reasonable skepticism, which only makes the parts of it that are straight up wrong or misleading stick out.
Particularly the issue you raise of making up new fanciful words. This game straight up doesn't. Or, atleast, not in ANY of the cards weve seen. Theres a made up example in the video where you add "pages" to your "chapter" instead of drawing a card into your hand. But in this very video you can clearly see the verbage for "draw a card" is "draw a card". Thats hardly fanciful language.
The closest the game seems to come to that is "challenge" taking the place of attack and "banish" taking the place of kill, and given the games family demographic, thats pretty damn reasonable. Hell I think Ive seen both of those used in other tcgs for the exact same idea. This is what that interview was referring to unless theres terms weve yet to see. (Edit, since Kohdok replied. The article he's citing for this isn't an interview. It's an opinion piece from a news site talking about the seven cards being released. None of the devs have stated anything about using terminology just to be different.)
Theres plenty of things to actually criticize about what weve seen so far without making up problems.
I posted the article where they interviewed the devs who said that they were changing the vocabulary to stand out.
Really wish they just redid the Kingdom Hearts TCG. There are far too many magic clones and gamers deserve more creativity.
The most popular tcgs before MTG are pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Android: NetRunner. You know what all those games have in common? NONE OF THEM PLAY LIKE MAGIC THE FUCKING GATHERING. I'm at a point in my life where when I look at new card game and the FIRST THING I see is 5 colors and a resource row, I'm already gone. Kohdok said it best, "we don't another MTG."
Wtf is Android netrunner?
@@bepisthescienceman4202 An asymmetrical card game where each player is essentially playing a different game while preventing the other from completing their goals. One player is the Corporation, trying to fund and complete their agendas, the other is the Runner, attempting to steal those same agendas. The winner is whoever can achieve 7 points worth of agendas.
@@Digital_Acid I honestly don't think it should be as popular as the big 3 cause I never heard or seen anything of it
This whole thing gives me stadia vibes
Hey, have you seen the Lorcana rules yet?
Tbh I don't think we'll even see organized play with this one. Ravensburger has no clue about running a tcg, so I don't actually see them run tournaments of any kinds. Also I feel like there might be an odd distrbution model incoming, which excludes the typical tcg player and heads more for the Board game market - because Ravensburger is a Board Game company first. i don't see them adapting to the tcg market in any way. I feel like this game might die really quick.
If they go the LCG route, that might actually play to their favor, but I suspect Disney does actually want some of that high priced resale market to make the cards feel more like collector's items, so I can't see that happening.
This whole thing just feels like one giant cash grab by everyone involved.
Instead of hiring a legion of well known game designers, they hired the guy most famous for having designed a multitude of failed card games.
And instead of designing a game that plays into the Disney angle, the guy just took one of his many failed projects and slapped a Disney paint job on it.
And it seems to me that Disney just doesn't care about how well the game actually does. If they did, then the D23 cards wouldn't have been so limited. D23 is attended by tens of thousands of people. They could've printed and sold 5,000+ of those collector's sets and it wouldn't have changed the outcome. They'd have still sold out, and still be scalped for outrageous mark ups.
Honestly, I think kohdok is right about his 2nd guess. It's going to be exclusively sold at Disney parks, and I don't think it'll just end up that way. I think it'll be like that from the start. Disney loves selling meaningless collectables that are just neat enough to make you want them. Have you seen the metal keys they sell exclusively at the parks? They ripped that straight from kingdom hearts and threw every generic design they could think of on them and called it "collectable", and people just eat it up because they're park exclusives.
Organized competitive play never crossed anyone's mind when designing this game. Any tournaments will have to be fan organized, and Disney will probably DMCA them for it.
So... when are going to get into a full feature length rant about battle systems and why you aren't happy with magic clone #4096? It seems you are bubbling to let it out.
It's not really that, it's that so many games draw so much from Magic's pacing and design (Five colors with the same meanings, played with special resource cards, monsters fight each other or try to inflict life-point damage). I listed a bunch of games that are just "Magic, but with a couple things different" because we see so many.
@@Kohdok Maybe, but it is clear that most of the games you and everyone else seems to see that are new are pulling the magic but card to where it seems like you can play a bingo game with new card releases and get more from it than some games out there.
It's an MTG clone being marketed with a Mickey that looks like a dollar store Dark Magician. How do you do, fellow kids? We too can make the card game references. I'm still getting it if only because it'll be the only mass produced, easy to obtain version of Duel Masters for a while.
Edit: Also, "banish" being used in place of "destroy" makes my YGO brain BSOD.
Some of the arguments here actually have me acknowledging how much stuff FAB did well. Unique game system in the space and very transparent glossary for example.
Really glad you showcased Monster Club these days because that game also speaks a very clear language and I'm very excited to give it a try!
Loved the video! And I see your points. But this is all assuming that the game can’t just *exist*. Okay, it never breaks the top 3. But my card store does really well with Digimon, Dragon Ball, Vanguard, Flesh and Blood, and soon One Piece. I don’t personally see a bubble popping as hard as we once thought.
I would personally add a #4 option. I think we might see a world where Lorcana does just fine. It probably will do really well on launch with lots of scalping and fomo, but then I can see it becoming another TCG in a growing market.
Heck ,Japan has an even wider range of TCGs. Maybe our market is becoming more like theirs?
Also was it ever specified that this game will focus only on animated characters? I think it would be a no brainer to include Marvel, Star Wars, Avatar etc. eventually in later sets. It just makes too much sense!
I never create a long comment like this lol. Maybe I’m just a Disney Adult that is blinded.
The issue isn't that another card game can't exist, but that it's just more of the same. I didn't notice the Kaijudo similarities but just putting on top some MTG like statlines won't be enough to separate the game from the pack. The games you mentioned are very different and are doing well for it.
@@grimjack9139 in my opinion we will see if another clone can exist with how popular one piece will be because that will be a mostly textbook clone of magic/duel master. Also we should wait and see, plenty of great magic clone came and last a long time as long as the game bring new interesting mechanic of feel different in some way.
@@grimjack9139 Pokémon is not *that* different from MTG. A lot of the games DNA is still there from when Wizards designed the game. If there are some similarities, I personally don’t see a problem. And Vanguard has a lot of Similarities to Pokémon as well. And Dragon Ball shares a bunch of Mechanics with FaB… the list goes on.
I mean I’m not about to fall on the sword for the mouse, I’m just personally hyped on it, and hope the game does well! 😁
@@VanillaSoup what. Pokemon is incredibly different from mtg. Unless you are boiling them both down to "you have creature that attack" and nothing else.
Issue #1 I see is Disney as a business doesn’t do “just exist”.
It must either succeed tremendously (on the levels of Magic, YGO or PTCG) or it’ll be canned into the ground.
Will you make a video on Eternals as well? The TCG made by poketuber aDrive. I would love to know your opinion!
I cant find it
you mean elestrals?
I'm okay with the released date, as Shigeru Myamoto said, "A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad."
Except the D23 card exclusives. You’ll need a home equity loan and a Disney psycho for a spouse.
Also doesn’t help that ravensburger have no experience with making tchs (they mainly make puzzles and simple boardgames)
Disney is in for a rude awakening. Sure, you can go through the motions and mimic the competition, but theres context and insight that they're very much blind to. Its not gonna end well. This is one market where buying your way in is a death sentence. Good luck. You're gonna need it.
Never underestimate disney. I once sold a plastic mickey key for $350 last year.
goofy thanos control is gonna be meta
what about Zetta Flare Donald?
Seeing Rogal Dorn from TTS outside of a video related to Warhammer made my day.
Oh God no...
Yeah i rather play the Kingdom Hearts card game than that
Technically some of these details are wrong. The game was announced well ahead of D23, and in fact the 7 cards available at D23 were spoiled like a week ago.That set of 6 cards? There weren't 300 available. D23 was a 3 day event, there were 300 per day. So about 900 available total. It's not much better, but slightly better.