Schön zu sehen, dass Leute, die Zugang zu den Anlagen haben, sie dokumentieren, bevor es zu spät ist. Diese "so bauen, dass es lange hält" Mentalität findet man ja heute leider nicht mehr so richtig.
Besten Dank. Es freut mich, dass meine Dokumentationen gefallen, denn da steckt viel Aufwand dahinter. In den 90ern wurden meiner Ansicht nach die letzten, wirklich soliden Anlagen im Low- und Mid-Rise-Bereich gebaut. Heute ist da alles viel billiger konstruiert, das ist schade. Solch massive Konstruktion wie hier gibts heutzutage nur noch bei High-Rise Anlagen.
Sehe ich auch so. Zudem sind sie heutzutage auch meistens etwas langsam und nicht besonders effizient beim Anfahren von Geschossen, was wahrscheinlich auch an der leichteren Konstruktion liegt, die weniger Kräfte aufnehmen kann.
@@robertderechte Das kommt immer drauf an, wo man schaut und was man hat. Dass die meisten Anlagen langsam sind, liegt nicht an den Herstellern, sondern an den Kunden. Der schnellere Lift kostet halt mehr und wenn die geizige Verwaltung das nicht zahlen will, dann ist der Lift halt langsam. Die Direkteinfahrt, also das Einfahren in die Etage ohne Schleichweg, war bei Schindler schon immer ein grosses und wichtiges Thema und auch heute können das alle Schindler-eigenen Steuerungen und Antriebe. Es gab um die Jahrtausendwende wenige Ausnahmen, wie beispielsweise der Schindler Smart. Aber grundsätzlich ist das technisch machbar und auch offene Produkte von Drittanbietern unterstützen heute fast alle diese Funktion. Problem: Viele Techniker wissen nicht, wie man das richtig einstellt. Punkto Beschleunigung: Die Anlage hier fährt mit 0.7m/s², was eigentlich für die Geschwindigkeit von 1.6m/s normal ist. Für schnellere Anlagen in Geschäftshäusern, so wie diese hier, stellt man heute eigentlich als Standardwert 0.8m/s² ein. Das kann ein Schindler 5500 auch ohne Probleme fahren. Bei einem 3300 wird das schon schwieriger, ist aber noch immer möglich. Da aber die meisten 3300 eh nur 1m/s fahren, macht diese Beschleunigung da auch keinen Sinn. Abschliessend ist das heutige Problem eine Kombination aus langsamen Anlagen und schlecht eingestellten Anlagen. Schindler verbaut ja seit Mitte 90er auch viele generische Steuerungsprodukte und die sind meistens einfach nicht richtig eingestellt. Die eigenen Steuerungen von Schindler hingegen sind so entworfen, dass sie gar keinen Schleichweg kennen und immer direkt einfahren. Mechanisch lassen sich die Fahrkurven also grundsätzlich auch mit heutigen Konstruktionen realisieren.
Awesome find again, and it is also satisfying to see such a clean shaft😁 I hope this one will be also kept, since modernisation means a downgrade because none of the modern day controllers are able to beat Schindler's masterpiece from the old days😢
Indeed, this lift is basically in mint condition and everything feels so clean and new. It is perfect in the way it is now and any change to it could be considered a downgrade from the status quo. I hope too that it will not be touched in the near future.
Indeed, I love it too as it just sounds so epic. The Mic V in general is one of the best controllers ever built in my opinon and the Dyn MV fits it perfectly.
My compliments again for your work. The moment the doors are closed, in that same second your can hear the startup humming of the motor and the cabin is in motion (timestamp 7:06).
You're welcome! The control flow of the Mic V is extremely efficient indeed, which makes these old systems almost unbeatable by their modern equivalents.
It indeed is. I like the S-series buttons too. This lift here is not a lift of the design S program though, as design S was Schindlers cheap standard lift program in the 80s and 90s and came with a Mic B controller. This lift here is more or less custom made for the application, with the lift car and doors usually found in lifts with M line buttons. However the customer here chose to have the S series fixtures, which is a very uncommon choice resulting in this unique lift.
EPIC video! Miconic V is one of my personal favourite lift logics from Schindler in Switzerland because of it's excellent smooth intelligent levelling and efficiency. The running sounds on the Dynatron MV drive is amazing on this Big lift! We have a few installations of Schindler Mic Vs here in Malaysia and they were mostly from the 1990s like this but smaller capacities. Most of them runs at speeds of 2 - 2.5m/s and used the same awesome Dynatron MV drives. The interior fixtures of the cabs were standard for the era touch-sensitive varient of the M-Line we get in Asia, unlike this S-Series fixtures shown in the video in which our case is extinct since 2017 sadly. Very recently, I visited a hotel that had 1995 Schindler Mic Vs in 2 sets of 4 lifts, they were efficient and fast for 2.5m/s. Later in the same day, I checked out a motor room of 1997 2.5m/s Miconic TX (!) lifts with Variodyn drives which were very interesting. If you want to check that out, you can let me know. :)
I too love the Mic V - it's just such a great controller that set a new standard when it was released and it's operating concept with the screen and keyboard is just so convenient! The Dyn MV here truly sounds epic and I really like it. I go in and out in this building from time to time and it's just great to ride this lift every once in a while! Nice to hear that you still have Mic Vs over there too! 2.5m/s was the max speed of the Dyn MV, so you also got the fastest option for that, really nice. Capacitive M-buttons are really epic and they're among my favourite fixtures. I don't know why they chose S-series here, but it makes a really interesting combination as Mic V and S-series fixtures is a really unconventional combo. Your findings sound really interesting, you can send them to me if you want. TX is also pretty interesting and not too common. Especially in Switzerland where we don't have many true high-rise buildings that go above 100 meters, it is hard to find these controllers and especially the big gearless machines that come with high-speed lifts. £There are some TX-GC installs in Zürich and in another city there is a group of 4 Mic TX with 3m/s from the late 90s. But these are mods on old Schlieren lifts that once were Aconics with DC gearless engines.
Hallo lieber Lift Dragon endlich wieder ein Video. Die Kabel vom Motor durch das Loch führen, Indem die Seile laufen..... Bedenklich. Aber damals erlaubt denke ich. Lieben Gruß
Warum bedenklich? Sie sind doch alle durch Kabelbinder und den Kabelkanal an der Schachtdecke in der Position fest. Wenn das bedenklich ist, was ist dann der Abstand zwischen Kabinen- und Schachttür bei voller Fahrt?
@@robertderechte es ist heutzutage nicht üblich, dass bewegliche Teile, so nahe an einer elektronischen Leitung sind, das sind Vorschriften. Geht nicht darum das sie fixiert sind. Es könnte auch am Seil ein Fremdkörper sein, der die Kabel beschädigt, so wird hier argumentiert in den Vorschriften. Ob und was realistisch ist, ist da zweitrangig - geht um das 1000%ige und um Risiko zu minimieren. Also schlicht unzulässig, natürlich weil der Aufzug Altbestand ist, muß das nicht geändert werden. Das selbe ist zum Beispiel bei CNC Maschinen. Die Arbeitsraum Türe war früher ohne Sicherheitsschalter und die Maschine hat so Zulassung. Ein modernisieren ist da nicht nötig, da Zulassung besteht. Auch wenn heute, eine Maschine das nicht mehr bekommen würde ohne Sicherheitseinrichtung. Ich würde das ohnehin nicht machen weil der gesunde Menschenstand sagt ich lege keine Kabel wo unmittelbar sich etwas bewegt. Dann muß man von Motor weg, eine extra Kabelführung machen. Sowas würde ich nicht annehmen heutzutage. Da wäre ich hinter schwedischen Gardinen.
Freut mich, dass es gefällt! Ich hatte im letzten Monat sehr viel um die Ohren, weswegen ich keine Zeit hatte, grosse Videos zu bearbeiten. Deshalb gab es in der Zeit nur die Shorts, denn die sind vergleichsweise schnell gemacht. Bei der Kabelführung habe ich jetzt weniger Bedenken. Es hat jetzt über 25 Jahre funktioniert, daher wird das schon so passen. Unkonventionell ist die Lösung entlang der Schachtdecke allemal. Gruss aus der Schweiz
@@TheLiftDragon I showed this video to someone who work in this industry but he think 31.5 kw machine is a very big machine and they could reduce the machine power (kilowatt) if it's 2:1 roping. my question is, how to choose the appropriate machine? does the height of the building affect the choice?
@@Moiraqi817 31.5kW is indeed the rated power of the machine on the type plate of the motor. Quick math, theoretical: The power needed to lift a given mass with a given speed is m*g*v. The balancing of the lift is 50%, therefore we get 1250kg*9.81m/s²*1.6m/s=19620W or 19.6kW. So the power we need at least to operate this lift would be approx 20 kW BUT this does not count in any losses. We could now factor in an efficiency of 80% for the gearbox and an efficiency of 90% for everything else, meaning friction of the tracks and all the ropes in 2:1. This would give us a needed input power of 19.62/0.8/0.9 = 27.25 kW. The actual 31.5 kW are not far from that and surely are a realistic value. Plus we need to keep in mind that this calculation only focuses on the constant movement, it does not factor in acceleration of the lift. While accelerating the power consumption will be higher of course. My conclusion: No, the power of this lift cannot be reduced. 2:1 or 1:1 does not affect the needed power output from the machine other than that 2:1 has a bit more losses than 1:1 (because it needs more sheaves) but I assume that is not a big difference. The only really relevant difference is that with 2:1 you need twice the RPM and only half the torque on the traction sheave as with 1:1. You also see that in the formula above the roping factor does not appear because it's not relevant. The height of the building generally does not affect the needed power. However, it can in very tall buildings: The mass of the ropes and compensation ropes will increase, therefore to get the lift going ( acceleration phase mentioned above),more power is needed because the mass of the cables can grow up to several tonnes! But for the constant movement of the lift the height does not matter as long as there is rope weight compensation underneath the car and counterweight. The only method of actually reducing the rated power needed for a lift while maintaining the same capacity and speed is by using a gearless machine. The P=m* g*v formula is plain simple phsyics, it cannot be defeated and power can never be below this value. So the only way to get down with motor power is to reduce the losses, in this case it would be in the gearbox. Gearless lifts always use motors with smaller power ratings than geared machines for the same application because they don't have to compensate for the losses of the gearbox.
@@TheLiftDragon Thank you so much, It's really a very useful answer to me because in my country they pick the machine depends on the building height (we don't have tall buildings) and roping, they reduce the power when they use 2:1 and all that not based on science but experience from practicing so when I ask why? most of them answer "because we do it that way" 🙂
Now this is truly an awesome Swiss masterpiece! This thing is so much better compared to what Schindler makes today in terms of quality and durability. Almost every Schindler elevators made before the 2000s were built to last. I've always loved the Schindler S-Series fixtures other than M-Series. The buttons clickiness are very satisfying and the scrolling effect on the indicators is very attractive (I'd prefer this one than the boring faded effect). It's a shame that S-Series is now extinct in Indonesia; the last installation that I know was in a hotel in Sumatra which had a pair of very rare Schindler designS elevator but they were modernized into a cheap Chinese elevators. There used to be some more designS installations in my hometown from 1990 but they were horribly modernized in 2005 and recently replaced into cheap Schindler 3300 MRLs. All that's left now are a few Schindler M-Series installations which are now nearly extinct :(
That is true indeed, this lift here is a prime example of a good and properly built car, how it is supposed to be. Everything is durable, high quality and also maintainable. I also find S-series very satisfying, they're nice buttons. The always remind me of my childhood as the lifts in my grandparent's tower block had them. They've been replaced a few years ago. It's really sad to hear that all these nice installs are being modernised or replaced where you live. Especially cheap Chinese mods, I'm glad we don't have these here. But still Schindler loves to sell mods to building companies. Just recently I wanted to film extra footage on some Schindler 300s in Basel I filmed a year ago and when I went to check on them they had gotten a new controller and new Schaefer fixtures.
Yeah it's indeed sad to see S-Series in my home country is now extinct. At least one of the landing call button panels from the installations in my homeland is now sitting on my work desk at home as I've managed to obtain it a few years before the lifts were replaced and the building no longer needed it as it was already considered as a "junk". At least now I can press a Schindler S-Series button almost everyday :)
Hi dear, i’’m in rome right now and i have a list of errors of our miconic v. If you can see and help us I would be so glad. Congratulations for your super work for video and working vintage elevator. Ciao
Hi, I'm glad you like my videos! I'm sorry for the late reply, I've been absent from RUclips for the last months because I had other matters to attend to. I can try to help if you still need it but I can't guarantee success of course. I can make a guess if you tell me what the errors are.
Neither of these. The Miconic V is a dedicated lift controller engineered by Schindler in the late 1980s. I consider it one of the very best controllers ever built, even to this day. The controller itself consists of multiple slot-in PCBs in the top part of the control cabinet. They all implement different functionalities, such as reading inputs, writing outputs (relays, contactors, lanterns...), communication with the drive, powers supply. etc... The second print from the left, the so.called PAK print, is the brain of the controller. It contains the processor that controls all the functionality as well as a dedicated video display processor. This VDP generates the image on the TV screen. The TV is hooked up to the controller over composite video and the keyboard over RS232. Everything you see here is a functionality of the controller itself. It can be said that the Miconic V was probably the most advanced lift controller at the time it was introduced.
It indeed is a very special controller. Note that this is not a separate computer: It is only a TV screen connected to the controller. The Keyboard also connects to the controller via RS232. The image you see on the screen is generated by a dedicated video chip on the main PCB of the controller itself. It was the first controller ever built by Schindler, where all settings could be changed like that. Older controllers needed reprogramming of the EPROM by erasing it with UV light and then writing all the bits again. This controller was one of the first ever built with a graphical user interface. The monitor also works as a supervisory display and shows all lift cars of the group. Through the bus system it is also possible to log in to any lift of the group and change parameters, even with the keyboard and monitor always connected to the group master. A really advanced system.
@@TheLiftDragonreally amazing technology ahead of its time, I think. Is this a 90s design? I remember what the USSR did in those days. right before the collapse of the union. in 91, they released the very first electronic elevator control system (ulzh10. which translates as elevator control for residential buildings 10-storey support.) the system was quite buggy. consisted of two cabinets that were mounted on the wall in one cabinet electronics-3 control boards on hard logic. (one was responsible for the number of floors, the second for the security, power, direction of movement and speed circuits. The third for the call and order buttons. And the second cabinet with contactors, a transformer and a relay. Now this can be seen less and less. And in 98, a plant in Belarus produced the first microprocessor, which was also not very smart (it was based on some old Intel core) so I always wonder how different elevators are in Europe, the USA and post-Soviet countries
@@grey_seven The Miconic V was designed around the late 80s / early 90s. You may remember the Aconic from one of my other videos - The Mic V was the successor to the Aconic. Both controllers intended for high-rise and high-demand applications like large office buildings. The Miconic V you see here has the Dynatron MV drive, thyristor controlled 3 phase AC for geared machines up to 2.5m/s. But there was another drive option: The Transitronic for gearless DC motors up to 8m/s! Sadly there are only a hand full of these systems left on the whole planet, they are super rare. That ulzh10 controller system sounds really interesting. I generally find it sad that almost nothing about the older soviet lift controllers is known here in the west. It is interesting to me how these engineering problems were solved differently in other regions of the world. Do you know of any older high-rise systems from the USSR time?
@@TheLiftDragon so you are telling me that there is technically a GPU on a m series lift logic? And UV writing to eprom chips? What the hell do they just open the chip up and write sonething on it Via UV light?
@@asetatlikalem Memory things first: There are EPROM chips and EEPROM chips. Eprom stands for erasable programmable read-only memory. There is a glass window on the chip that is usually covered with a piece of plastic. Remove the plastic and then shine UV through the window, this erases the chip so it can be reprogrammed. EEPROM stands for electrically erasable programmable read-only memory. EEPROM is basically what we know today. And the Mic V was the first Schindler controller to use EEPROM, the first one that could have its parameters be changed. In order to reprogram a Mic B, you would have to fully erase the Eprom through UV and then write it again with an Eprom programmer. But with the Mic V this procedure was no longer necessary, that's why it is so much more advanced. If you want to know more there is a Wikipedia article on it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPROM Quick side note: M-Series is just the name of the buttons and older lifts (early 90s) with M-Series buttons can have either Mic B or Mic V controllers. The "newer" ones (late 90s) can also come with Mic SX, Mic TX(-GC) or even generic controllers from Germany. So there is no single "M-series logic". Now to the GPU: Yes, there actually is a GPU inside the Mic V controller, though it is not called that. At 2:22 there is a detailed image of the controller. The leftmost print, the UVPN, is the voltage supply. The next print directly to the right with no name tag is the interesting one: It is the PAK print (Prozessrechner für Aufzüge und Kommunikation -> CPU for Lifts and Communications) and it is the brain of the controller. The two cables going in from the front are the RS232 keyboard input and the composite video output for the monitor. The print itself contains a TMS99105 CPU which powers the whole lift and a TMS9129 Video display controller (VDC). This chip basically is a graphics card from the very old days and it generates the composite video signal you can see on the monitor.
I saw a motor room for some of these before, the keyboard was original (but different from this) but the CRT had been replaced with a cheap LCD from a local brand. Still pretty cool to watch the display. Sadly all lifts there have since been modernised.
Their numbers are also shrinking here sadly, yet I'm glad we still have some left. They once were the gold standard for big and tall buildings with groups of many lifts - now mostly replaced by more modern Schindler controllers like CO-MX.
Chapeau, vor der Anlage. Aber vor allem vor deinen wie immer super professionellen Videos, Dokumentation in der Videobeschreibung. Gerade das Thema Beschleunigung wird heutzutage mMn viel zu wenig thematisiert, da das gerade in High-Rise Anwendungen viel Einfluss auf die Effizienz hat. Bist du noch auf einem anderen Kanal erreichbar? Dann könnte ich uU auch Kontakt zu weiteren spannenden Anlagen herstellen.
Vielen Dank für den Kommentar! Ich stecke viel Zeit und Aufwand in die Videos und bemühe mich immer, alle wichtigen Eckdaten der Anlagen auch in der Beschreibung zu veröffentlichen. Die Beschleunigung wird bei umso schnelelren Anlagen natürlich immer wie wichtiger. Ab 2m/s aufwärts sind da meiner Ansicht nach 0.8m/s² das Minimum, sonst kommt man ja nirgendwo hin. Die Negativbeispiele dazu, wo das eben nicht so ist, gibt es leider auch. Auf der About-Seite meines Kanals ist meine Email-Adresse für aufzugsbezogene Angelegenheiten hinterlegt, da darfst du mich gerne anschreiben. Ich bin immer wieder daran interessiert, neue interessante Anlagen kennen zu lernen. :)
@@asetatlikalem You mean efficient as in energy efficient or as in time-efficient / levelling? The levelling question depends (mainly) on the circuitry that controls the power electronic part and not on the power electronics themselves. As of energy efficiency, modern day VVVF is the best. It's just a boring technology compared to for example what we have here. Also the Dyn MV combines the Dyn S style thyristor control with the old Dyn 2 eddy current brake, which is a really interesting solution in my opinion. Dynatron 2 also levels perfectly, I have some videos on it and on the Aconic / Monotron 3 combo as well, which is the same thing but from Schlieren instead of Schindler.
@@TheLiftDragon efficent as intelligent levellling i think this takes bit longer to compiletly stop but i think this Does predoors more early than other ones. And this seems somewhat speedy so
As I already said, that is all subject to the control circuitry of the drive and how it is set up and has absolutely noting to do with what technology actually drives the motor. Same with the point when advanced door opening happens, that is subject to the controller and it doesn't even have anything to do with what type of drive is used.
That is correct, this lift has cable weight compensation. This was mostly standard for many Schindlers from the 90s and earlier. However, it has become pretty rare nowadays. The fact that the often used belts are lighter than conventional cables also plays a role in this.
Yes, it was the era when Schindler still made very solid epic lifts. The only lift model still made like that today is the Schindler 7000 but they're super rare and can only be found in high-rise buildings.
The build quality of this lift is truly unmatched by modern day mid-rise lifts. I have to say though that the 5500/5000s installed here in Europe are among the best and most solid MRLs that exist, in comparison wth Otis, Kone and TKE. However, small generic companies may install even better lifts. No, we generally don't have Chinese lift components in Europe. The motors for the 5500s for example are manufactured in Spain.
Love the motor sound.
Me too, these old drives just make a truly epic sound.
Awesome piece of engineering.
It indeed is, thank you!
Schön zu sehen, dass Leute, die Zugang zu den Anlagen haben, sie dokumentieren, bevor es zu spät ist. Diese "so bauen, dass es lange hält" Mentalität findet man ja heute leider nicht mehr so richtig.
Besten Dank. Es freut mich, dass meine Dokumentationen gefallen, denn da steckt viel Aufwand dahinter.
In den 90ern wurden meiner Ansicht nach die letzten, wirklich soliden Anlagen im Low- und Mid-Rise-Bereich gebaut. Heute ist da alles viel billiger konstruiert, das ist schade. Solch massive Konstruktion wie hier gibts heutzutage nur noch bei High-Rise Anlagen.
Sehe ich auch so. Zudem sind sie heutzutage auch meistens etwas langsam und nicht besonders effizient beim Anfahren von Geschossen, was wahrscheinlich auch an der leichteren Konstruktion liegt, die weniger Kräfte aufnehmen kann.
@@robertderechte Das kommt immer drauf an, wo man schaut und was man hat. Dass die meisten Anlagen langsam sind, liegt nicht an den Herstellern, sondern an den Kunden. Der schnellere Lift kostet halt mehr und wenn die geizige Verwaltung das nicht zahlen will, dann ist der Lift halt langsam.
Die Direkteinfahrt, also das Einfahren in die Etage ohne Schleichweg, war bei Schindler schon immer ein grosses und wichtiges Thema und auch heute können das alle Schindler-eigenen Steuerungen und Antriebe. Es gab um die Jahrtausendwende wenige Ausnahmen, wie beispielsweise der Schindler Smart. Aber grundsätzlich ist das technisch machbar und auch offene Produkte von Drittanbietern unterstützen heute fast alle diese Funktion. Problem: Viele Techniker wissen nicht, wie man das richtig einstellt.
Punkto Beschleunigung: Die Anlage hier fährt mit 0.7m/s², was eigentlich für die Geschwindigkeit von 1.6m/s normal ist. Für schnellere Anlagen in Geschäftshäusern, so wie diese hier, stellt man heute eigentlich als Standardwert 0.8m/s² ein. Das kann ein Schindler 5500 auch ohne Probleme fahren. Bei einem 3300 wird das schon schwieriger, ist aber noch immer möglich. Da aber die meisten 3300 eh nur 1m/s fahren, macht diese Beschleunigung da auch keinen Sinn.
Abschliessend ist das heutige Problem eine Kombination aus langsamen Anlagen und schlecht eingestellten Anlagen. Schindler verbaut ja seit Mitte 90er auch viele generische Steuerungsprodukte und die sind meistens einfach nicht richtig eingestellt. Die eigenen Steuerungen von Schindler hingegen sind so entworfen, dass sie gar keinen Schleichweg kennen und immer direkt einfahren. Mechanisch lassen sich die Fahrkurven also grundsätzlich auch mit heutigen Konstruktionen realisieren.
Awesome find again, and it is also satisfying to see such a clean shaft😁
I hope this one will be also kept, since modernisation means a downgrade because none of the modern day controllers are able to beat Schindler's masterpiece from the old days😢
Indeed, this lift is basically in mint condition and everything feels so clean and new.
It is perfect in the way it is now and any change to it could be considered a downgrade from the status quo. I hope too that it will not be touched in the near future.
I still cant get how to good that Dynatron MV sounds like when going down. Its amazing what Schindler has made here, really impressive lift.
Indeed, I love it too as it just sounds so epic. The Mic V in general is one of the best controllers ever built in my opinon and the Dyn MV fits it perfectly.
My compliments again for your work. The moment the doors are closed, in that same second your can hear the startup humming of the motor and the cabin is in motion (timestamp 7:06).
You're welcome! The control flow of the Mic V is extremely efficient indeed, which makes these old systems almost unbeatable by their modern equivalents.
Very nice lift and very clean. Nice sound of the motor.
Thank you!
It indeed is in good condition and the Dynatron MV drive just sounds epic.They're very rare though.
Such a Legendary Lift. Schindler Design S is one of Schindler's Amazing Lift Models.
It indeed is. I like the S-series buttons too. This lift here is not a lift of the design S program though, as design S was Schindlers cheap standard lift program in the 80s and 90s and came with a Mic B controller. This lift here is more or less custom made for the application, with the lift car and doors usually found in lifts with M line buttons. However the customer here chose to have the S series fixtures, which is a very uncommon choice resulting in this unique lift.
Even though Schindler designS was an economical model it's still far better than Schindler 3300/3000 in terms of durability and quality.
@@idl3k_elev That is very true of course, 30 years ago all the lifts were built much better than they are nowadays.
EPIC video! Miconic V is one of my personal favourite lift logics from Schindler in Switzerland because of it's excellent smooth intelligent levelling and efficiency. The running sounds on the Dynatron MV drive is amazing on this Big lift!
We have a few installations of Schindler Mic Vs here in Malaysia and they were mostly from the 1990s like this but smaller capacities. Most of them runs at speeds of 2 - 2.5m/s and used the same awesome Dynatron MV drives. The interior fixtures of the cabs were standard for the era touch-sensitive varient of the M-Line we get in Asia, unlike this S-Series fixtures shown in the video in which our case is extinct since 2017 sadly.
Very recently, I visited a hotel that had 1995 Schindler Mic Vs in 2 sets of 4 lifts, they were efficient and fast for 2.5m/s. Later in the same day, I checked out a motor room of 1997 2.5m/s Miconic TX (!) lifts with Variodyn drives which were very interesting. If you want to check that out, you can let me know. :)
I too love the Mic V - it's just such a great controller that set a new standard when it was released and it's operating concept with the screen and keyboard is just so convenient! The Dyn MV here truly sounds epic and I really like it. I go in and out in this building from time to time and it's just great to ride this lift every once in a while!
Nice to hear that you still have Mic Vs over there too! 2.5m/s was the max speed of the Dyn MV, so you also got the fastest option for that, really nice. Capacitive M-buttons are really epic and they're among my favourite fixtures. I don't know why they chose S-series here, but it makes a really interesting combination as Mic V and S-series fixtures is a really unconventional combo.
Your findings sound really interesting, you can send them to me if you want. TX is also pretty interesting and not too common. Especially in Switzerland where we don't have many true high-rise buildings that go above 100 meters, it is hard to find these controllers and especially the big gearless machines that come with high-speed lifts. £There are some TX-GC installs in Zürich and in another city there is a group of 4 Mic TX with 3m/s from the late 90s. But these are mods on old Schlieren lifts that once were Aconics with DC gearless engines.
Hallo lieber Lift Dragon endlich wieder ein Video. Die Kabel vom Motor durch das Loch führen, Indem die Seile laufen..... Bedenklich. Aber damals erlaubt denke ich. Lieben Gruß
Warum bedenklich? Sie sind doch alle durch Kabelbinder und den Kabelkanal an der Schachtdecke in der Position fest. Wenn das bedenklich ist, was ist dann der Abstand zwischen Kabinen- und Schachttür bei voller Fahrt?
@@robertderechte es ist heutzutage nicht üblich, dass bewegliche Teile, so nahe an einer elektronischen Leitung sind, das sind Vorschriften. Geht nicht darum das sie fixiert sind.
Es könnte auch am Seil ein Fremdkörper sein, der die Kabel beschädigt, so wird hier argumentiert in den Vorschriften. Ob und was realistisch ist, ist da zweitrangig - geht um das 1000%ige und um Risiko zu minimieren.
Also schlicht unzulässig, natürlich weil der Aufzug Altbestand ist, muß das nicht geändert werden. Das selbe ist zum Beispiel bei CNC Maschinen. Die Arbeitsraum Türe war früher ohne Sicherheitsschalter und die Maschine hat so Zulassung.
Ein modernisieren ist da nicht nötig, da Zulassung besteht. Auch wenn heute, eine Maschine das nicht mehr bekommen würde ohne Sicherheitseinrichtung. Ich würde das ohnehin nicht machen weil der gesunde Menschenstand sagt ich lege keine Kabel wo unmittelbar sich etwas bewegt. Dann muß man von Motor weg, eine extra Kabelführung machen.
Sowas würde ich nicht annehmen heutzutage. Da wäre ich hinter schwedischen Gardinen.
Freut mich, dass es gefällt! Ich hatte im letzten Monat sehr viel um die Ohren, weswegen ich keine Zeit hatte, grosse Videos zu bearbeiten. Deshalb gab es in der Zeit nur die Shorts, denn die sind vergleichsweise schnell gemacht.
Bei der Kabelführung habe ich jetzt weniger Bedenken. Es hat jetzt über 25 Jahre funktioniert, daher wird das schon so passen. Unkonventionell ist die Lösung entlang der Schachtdecke allemal.
Gruss aus der Schweiz
Wow! fascinating work. You always impress me with those kind of lifts and the information you share. Keep up
Thank you very much, I'm glad you like my content!
@@TheLiftDragon Always like it
@@TheLiftDragon I showed this video to someone who work in this industry but he think 31.5 kw machine is a very big machine and they could reduce the machine power (kilowatt) if it's 2:1 roping. my question is, how to choose the appropriate machine? does the height of the building affect the choice?
@@Moiraqi817 31.5kW is indeed the rated power of the machine on the type plate of the motor. Quick math, theoretical: The power needed to lift a given mass with a given speed is m*g*v. The balancing of the lift is 50%, therefore we get 1250kg*9.81m/s²*1.6m/s=19620W or 19.6kW. So the power we need at least to operate this lift would be approx 20 kW BUT this does not count in any losses. We could now factor in an efficiency of 80% for the gearbox and an efficiency of 90% for everything else, meaning friction of the tracks and all the ropes in 2:1. This would give us a needed input power of 19.62/0.8/0.9 = 27.25 kW. The actual 31.5 kW are not far from that and surely are a realistic value. Plus we need to keep in mind that this calculation only focuses on the constant movement, it does not factor in acceleration of the lift. While accelerating the power consumption will be higher of course.
My conclusion: No, the power of this lift cannot be reduced. 2:1 or 1:1 does not affect the needed power output from the machine other than that 2:1 has a bit more losses than 1:1 (because it needs more sheaves) but I assume that is not a big difference. The only really relevant difference is that with 2:1 you need twice the RPM and only half the torque on the traction sheave as with 1:1. You also see that in the formula above the roping factor does not appear because it's not relevant.
The height of the building generally does not affect the needed power. However, it can in very tall buildings: The mass of the ropes and compensation ropes will increase, therefore to get the lift going ( acceleration phase mentioned above),more power is needed because the mass of the cables can grow up to several tonnes! But for the constant movement of the lift the height does not matter as long as there is rope weight compensation underneath the car and counterweight.
The only method of actually reducing the rated power needed for a lift while maintaining the same capacity and speed is by using a gearless machine. The P=m* g*v formula is plain simple phsyics, it cannot be defeated and power can never be below this value. So the only way to get down with motor power is to reduce the losses, in this case it would be in the gearbox. Gearless lifts always use motors with smaller power ratings than geared machines for the same application because they don't have to compensate for the losses of the gearbox.
@@TheLiftDragon Thank you so much, It's really a very useful answer to me because in my country they pick the machine depends on the building height (we don't have tall buildings) and roping, they reduce the power when they use 2:1 and all that not based on science but experience from practicing so when I ask why? most of them answer "because we do it that way" 🙂
Now this is truly an awesome Swiss masterpiece! This thing is so much better compared to what Schindler makes today in terms of quality and durability. Almost every Schindler elevators made before the 2000s were built to last.
I've always loved the Schindler S-Series fixtures other than M-Series. The buttons clickiness are very satisfying and the scrolling effect on the indicators is very attractive (I'd prefer this one than the boring faded effect). It's a shame that S-Series is now extinct in Indonesia; the last installation that I know was in a hotel in Sumatra which had a pair of very rare Schindler designS elevator but they were modernized into a cheap Chinese elevators. There used to be some more designS installations in my hometown from 1990 but they were horribly modernized in 2005 and recently replaced into cheap Schindler 3300 MRLs. All that's left now are a few Schindler M-Series installations which are now nearly extinct :(
That is true indeed, this lift here is a prime example of a good and properly built car, how it is supposed to be. Everything is durable, high quality and also maintainable.
I also find S-series very satisfying, they're nice buttons. The always remind me of my childhood as the lifts in my grandparent's tower block had them. They've been replaced a few years ago.
It's really sad to hear that all these nice installs are being modernised or replaced where you live. Especially cheap Chinese mods, I'm glad we don't have these here. But still Schindler loves to sell mods to building companies. Just recently I wanted to film extra footage on some Schindler 300s in Basel I filmed a year ago and when I went to check on them they had gotten a new controller and new Schaefer fixtures.
Yeah it's indeed sad to see S-Series in my home country is now extinct. At least one of the landing call button panels from the installations in my homeland is now sitting on my work desk at home as I've managed to obtain it a few years before the lifts were replaced and the building no longer needed it as it was already considered as a "junk". At least now I can press a Schindler S-Series button almost everyday :)
Hi dear, i’’m in rome right now and i have a list of errors of our miconic v.
If you can see and help us I would be so glad.
Congratulations for your super work for video and working vintage elevator.
Ciao
Hi, I'm glad you like my videos!
I'm sorry for the late reply, I've been absent from RUclips for the last months because I had other matters to attend to.
I can try to help if you still need it but I can't guarantee success of course. I can make a guess if you tell me what the errors are.
Are they coumputer controlled? Or plc controlled with display out, or that is a separate computer to make the interface more convenient?
Neither of these. The Miconic V is a dedicated lift controller engineered by Schindler in the late 1980s. I consider it one of the very best controllers ever built, even to this day. The controller itself consists of multiple slot-in PCBs in the top part of the control cabinet. They all implement different functionalities, such as reading inputs, writing outputs (relays, contactors, lanterns...), communication with the drive, powers supply. etc...
The second print from the left, the so.called PAK print, is the brain of the controller. It contains the processor that controls all the functionality as well as a dedicated video display processor. This VDP generates the image on the TV screen. The TV is hooked up to the controller over composite video and the keyboard over RS232. Everything you see here is a functionality of the controller itself. It can be said that the Miconic V was probably the most advanced lift controller at the time it was introduced.
a computer in the engine room is of course very interesting.
It indeed is a very special controller.
Note that this is not a separate computer: It is only a TV screen connected to the controller. The Keyboard also connects to the controller via RS232. The image you see on the screen is generated by a dedicated video chip on the main PCB of the controller itself. It was the first controller ever built by Schindler, where all settings could be changed like that. Older controllers needed reprogramming of the EPROM by erasing it with UV light and then writing all the bits again.
This controller was one of the first ever built with a graphical user interface. The monitor also works as a supervisory display and shows all lift cars of the group. Through the bus system it is also possible to log in to any lift of the group and change parameters, even with the keyboard and monitor always connected to the group master. A really advanced system.
@@TheLiftDragonreally amazing technology ahead of its time, I think. Is this a 90s design? I remember what the USSR did in those days. right before the collapse of the union. in 91, they released the very first electronic elevator control system (ulzh10. which translates as elevator control for residential buildings 10-storey support.) the system was quite buggy. consisted of two cabinets that were mounted on the wall in one cabinet electronics-3 control boards on hard logic. (one was responsible for the number of floors, the second for the security, power, direction of movement and speed circuits. The third for the call and order buttons. And the second cabinet with contactors, a transformer and a relay. Now this can be seen less and less. And in 98, a plant in Belarus produced the first microprocessor, which was also not very smart (it was based on some old Intel core) so I always wonder how different elevators are in Europe, the USA and post-Soviet countries
@@grey_seven The Miconic V was designed around the late 80s / early 90s. You may remember the Aconic from one of my other videos - The Mic V was the successor to the Aconic. Both controllers intended for high-rise and high-demand applications like large office buildings.
The Miconic V you see here has the Dynatron MV drive, thyristor controlled 3 phase AC for geared machines up to 2.5m/s. But there was another drive option: The Transitronic for gearless DC motors up to 8m/s! Sadly there are only a hand full of these systems left on the whole planet, they are super rare.
That ulzh10 controller system sounds really interesting. I generally find it sad that almost nothing about the older soviet lift controllers is known here in the west. It is interesting to me how these engineering problems were solved differently in other regions of the world. Do you know of any older high-rise systems from the USSR time?
@@TheLiftDragon so you are telling me that there is technically a GPU on a m series lift logic? And UV writing to eprom chips? What the hell do they just open the chip up and write sonething on it Via UV light?
@@asetatlikalem Memory things first: There are EPROM chips and EEPROM chips. Eprom stands for erasable programmable read-only memory. There is a glass window on the chip that is usually covered with a piece of plastic. Remove the plastic and then shine UV through the window, this erases the chip so it can be reprogrammed. EEPROM stands for electrically erasable programmable read-only memory. EEPROM is basically what we know today. And the Mic V was the first Schindler controller to use EEPROM, the first one that could have its parameters be changed. In order to reprogram a Mic B, you would have to fully erase the Eprom through UV and then write it again with an Eprom programmer. But with the Mic V this procedure was no longer necessary, that's why it is so much more advanced. If you want to know more there is a Wikipedia article on it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPROM
Quick side note: M-Series is just the name of the buttons and older lifts (early 90s) with M-Series buttons can have either Mic B or Mic V controllers. The "newer" ones (late 90s) can also come with Mic SX, Mic TX(-GC) or even generic controllers from Germany. So there is no single "M-series logic".
Now to the GPU: Yes, there actually is a GPU inside the Mic V controller, though it is not called that. At 2:22 there is a detailed image of the controller. The leftmost print, the UVPN, is the voltage supply. The next print directly to the right with no name tag is the interesting one: It is the PAK print (Prozessrechner für Aufzüge und Kommunikation -> CPU for Lifts and Communications) and it is the brain of the controller. The two cables going in from the front are the RS232 keyboard input and the composite video output for the monitor. The print itself contains a TMS99105 CPU which powers the whole lift and a TMS9129 Video display controller (VDC). This chip basically is a graphics card from the very old days and it generates the composite video signal you can see on the monitor.
I saw a motor room for some of these before, the keyboard was original (but different from this) but the CRT had been replaced with a cheap LCD from a local brand. Still pretty cool to watch the display.
Sadly all lifts there have since been modernised.
Their numbers are also shrinking here sadly, yet I'm glad we still have some left. They once were the gold standard for big and tall buildings with groups of many lifts - now mostly replaced by more modern Schindler controllers like CO-MX.
gut gemachtes Video! gefällt mir!
Dankesehr!
Chapeau, vor der Anlage. Aber vor allem vor deinen wie immer super professionellen Videos, Dokumentation in der Videobeschreibung.
Gerade das Thema Beschleunigung wird heutzutage mMn viel zu wenig thematisiert, da das gerade in High-Rise Anwendungen viel Einfluss auf die Effizienz hat.
Bist du noch auf einem anderen Kanal erreichbar? Dann könnte ich uU auch Kontakt zu weiteren spannenden Anlagen herstellen.
Vielen Dank für den Kommentar! Ich stecke viel Zeit und Aufwand in die Videos und bemühe mich immer, alle wichtigen Eckdaten der Anlagen auch in der Beschreibung zu veröffentlichen.
Die Beschleunigung wird bei umso schnelelren Anlagen natürlich immer wie wichtiger. Ab 2m/s aufwärts sind da meiner Ansicht nach 0.8m/s² das Minimum, sonst kommt man ja nirgendwo hin. Die Negativbeispiele dazu, wo das eben nicht so ist, gibt es leider auch.
Auf der About-Seite meines Kanals ist meine Email-Adresse für aufzugsbezogene Angelegenheiten hinterlegt, da darfst du mich gerne anschreiben. Ich bin immer wieder daran interessiert, neue interessante Anlagen kennen zu lernen. :)
Epic DC plusing
Indeed, love the sound too.
@@TheLiftDragon hey, here is the thing i think DC pulsing ones are less efficent than ac vf ones and ac pusling ones
@@asetatlikalem You mean efficient as in energy efficient or as in time-efficient / levelling? The levelling question depends (mainly) on the circuitry that controls the power electronic part and not on the power electronics themselves. As of energy efficiency, modern day VVVF is the best. It's just a boring technology compared to for example what we have here.
Also the Dyn MV combines the Dyn S style thyristor control with the old Dyn 2 eddy current brake, which is a really interesting solution in my opinion. Dynatron 2 also levels perfectly, I have some videos on it and on the Aconic / Monotron 3 combo as well, which is the same thing but from Schlieren instead of Schindler.
@@TheLiftDragon efficent as intelligent levellling i think this takes bit longer to compiletly stop but i think this Does predoors more early than other ones. And this seems somewhat speedy so
As I already said, that is all subject to the control circuitry of the drive and how it is set up and has absolutely noting to do with what technology actually drives the motor.
Same with the point when advanced door opening happens, that is subject to the controller and it doesn't even have anything to do with what type of drive is used.
I think I see weight-compensating cables connected from the bottom of the car to the bottom of the counterweight. Not all installations have these.
That is correct, this lift has cable weight compensation. This was mostly standard for many Schindlers from the 90s and earlier. However, it has become pretty rare nowadays. The fact that the often used belts are lighter than conventional cables also plays a role in this.
I can only imagine how much noise that motor must make when running down on inspection.
It is pretty loud indeed but not more than what you can hear in the video during slowdown. Still love the amazing thyristor sound though.
So high elevator quality
Yes, it was the era when Schindler still made very solid epic lifts. The only lift model still made like that today is the Schindler 7000 but they're super rare and can only be found in high-rise buildings.
mit mein gaming tastatur kannst du den aufzug verbinden besser mit beleuchtung
Nein, das funktioniert nicht. Diese Steuerung ist älter als der USB-Standard.
@@TheLiftDragon oh Schade!
Much better than Schindler 5500/5000 that is Made in China, not sure if they use China made lifts for Europe
The build quality of this lift is truly unmatched by modern day mid-rise lifts. I have to say though that the 5500/5000s installed here in Europe are among the best and most solid MRLs that exist, in comparison wth Otis, Kone and TKE. However, small generic companies may install even better lifts.
No, we generally don't have Chinese lift components in Europe. The motors for the 5500s for example are manufactured in Spain.
Never heard or seen Chinese lifts even in poor countries like mine.Turkish yes but Chinese no.