Book Discussion: Early Indians by Tony Joseph, Hartosh Bal, Dr Shashi Tharoor
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- Who are we Indians? Where did we come from?
Many of us believe our ancestors have lived in South Asia since 'time immemorial'. But, as it turns out, 'time immemorial' may not have been all that long ago.
To tell us the story of our ancestry, journalist Tony Joseph goes 65,000 years into the past - when a band of modern humans, or Homo sapiens, first made their way from Africa into the Indian subcontinent. Citing recent DNA evidence, he traces the subsequent large migrations of modern humans into India - of agriculturalists from Iran between 7000 and 3000 BCE and pastoralists from the Central Asian Steppe between 2000 and 1000 BCE, among others.
As Joseph unravels our history using the results of genetic and other research, he takes head-on some of the most controversial and uncomfortable questions of Indian history: Who were the Harappans?
Did the 'Aryans' really migrate to India?
Are North Indians genetically different from South Indians?
And are the various castes genetically distinct groups?
Dr Shashi Tharoor was in conversation with the author.
Read the book: bit.ly/2ApYvnQ
amzn.to/2EHwQ5G
Read the book, and it's so impressive to be written so professionally by an Indian with zero political bias. Was such a fresh read after Harari series. Waiting for his future works !
Sorry but its lame aryan invasion theory is proven wrong you can go for the deep resarch of you can see youtube videos discarding this fake theory
@@devshivhare6103 could you share link from any respectable source?
@@masochistboy653 sangam talks youtube channel.
@@devshivhare6103 RUclips videos or books? I know where my loyalties lie
@@yash-lu7qp vaise hooks toh BHAGWAD GEETA or VEDAS bhi hai toh vo pdo or faltu logo ko chodd do jo khud bs paisa or fame ke peeche marte wo tumhe kya sikhayenge bhai or waise hhi bs normal humans ki baat bhi kre toh words of some unbiased reseacher or books of some idiots you should reallly know where your loyalties lie
Indian civilization is so old and continuous that generations after generations are living in the same place for thousand years that if we dig any prominent place we will find new archeology which dates back thousand years.
If we are indeed living in a continuous civilization how come we have never been able to decipher the IVC script?
@@jaypatel3100 good question kid. maybe its not a script maybe its a trade symbol or barcode of some kind. even Egyptian scripts was not cracked for many years.
@@utubetruthteller
But Egyptian civilization is not a continuous culture. Christianity and Islam ruptured the continuity.
On the other hand, if those are seals and symbols didn't the IVC have a single fragment of surviving text?
And does calling someone "kid" asking logical questions make you feel all superior?
@@jaypatel3100 they didn't use palm leaves even if they used it they would have been long gone as tropical weather would destroy them in 20 years let alone 5000 years.
@@utubetruthteller
You are not reading my comments
I have gone through the book for 2nd time it has changed my Outlook and being a scientific minded I crave the hope to translate the book into Assamese, but I don't know the web address, to take permission from the respected author. Will anybody kindly help ?
Knekua kitab khon
My own study on socio political dynamics of Indian history published as India Rediscovered: A New Vision of History and Call of the Age has been substantially supported by this wonderful book of Tony Joseph। I m greatly thankful to him for that matter. Genesis of varna and castes has its own phases of history. This i have tried to explain in my book which may make Tony's book even more useful.
Endogamy & pernicious application of the caste system pervades the minds of the first authors of even the great epics Ramayana & Mahabharata preceding the Manusmriti. Even the Bhagavad Gita seems tainted marginally by the one verse, advising bhaktas to dutifully stay within limitations assigned according to their varnas!
FYI: This is the fact based scholarly work: Indian Civilisation: The Untold Story - Revisited | Raj Vedam | Aryan Invasion/Migration Theory ::ruclips.net/video/1bsyi4zYHP0/видео.html
I would encourage everyone who comes here to listen to the podcast, plz go through the research papers published in Nature and the cell. The findings and conclusions are based on solid genetic research and it’s fantastic…I took time to read the research papers ( gets quite technical). Reading the book now. The author has collated all the findings and gifts us a very delicious book… a happy reading 😊. Plz don’t listen to the crap of Abhijit Chabra and his likes. This is real Science ❤❤
Peggy Mohan's book 'Wanderers, Kings, Merchants: The Story of India through its :Languages' and R. Balakrishnan"s book 'Journey of a Civilisation: From the Indus to the Vaigai' and Tony Joseph's book being discussed here, should be read together to get a complete, coherent picture of our prehistory. These three books have changed our perception of pre-history. I do think that the conversation here is very superficial and and not at all academic. There are some questions like how the caste system came into being were not dealt with properly in this trialogue.
Thanks for the recommendations😊
I am amused, not to mention bemused, by Tharoor's constant refrain of let's be proud of this or that element from our past. Nothing against Tharoor, he's probably addressing some imaginary audience of Indians who feel this way, but it's a very needy way of thinking and betrays one's insecurity. Is it because we have so little to be proud of in the present and the future that we are desperately seeking sources of self-esteem in the distant past? Tony's approach is more emotionally neutral, as it should be since the pre-history as he lays it out is not all that impressive in today's terms. All we can say is the occupiers of the piece of real estate we now call India survived in some form and so here we are. Is that something to be proud of? Too low of a bar in my opinion since it is just the necessary condition for us being here. Of all the Bronze Age civilizations, Mesopotamia gets bragging rights for being the earliest, while Ancient Egypt is the most iconic in terms of its modern day cultural impact.
The Harappans are interesting academically, but it's hard for the common man to get fired up about good drainage. This leads us to the strange situation we are in today - a widespread tendency to identify with post-Harappan Vedic culture and the fantastic worlds of the itihasas and puranas but an inability to reconcile all that with a Central Asia steppe precursor. We have found the aliens and they are us.
Though this comment is a year old but it’s tempting 😂. These findings are not common man’s or woman’s studies. There are hard core path breaking genetics research laying the foundation. Plus Harappan civilisation is of a huge interest not only in academics. Harappan is the civilisation with so advanced urban planning not to mention the hard to decode the language. Let common people be happy with their common beliefs and let science do its work and find the actual evidence based truths.
Just heard this priceless piece of humour on the commonality of Gujaratis and Germans associated with Aryan migration...That wa a masterpiece from Shashi !!!!! what a fascinating interview..riveting like a thriller..The joke was so good from Shashi that i had to immediately pause at 48...
The adivasi tribes like the Bihor, Baiga and Khonds who have genetic and linguistic links to the Australian aborigines and are still around in India.
yes i agreed
Yes....my Civilisation is great....every other historians now a days is trying to be associated with our great ancient past for identification...their envy is our pride..
We are not migrants...
Yes my civilization is great. I came to understand many truths about my ancestors. Evry must read this book.
FYI: This is the fact based scholarly work: Indian Civilisation: The Untold Story - Revisited | Raj Vedam | Aryan Invasion/Migration Theory ::ruclips.net/video/1bsyi4zYHP0/видео.html
Even before I hear and enjoy this beautiful discussion, the photographer in me is irritated. This video is the best example of how lighting should not be done. And also how a discussion should not be shot.
Baghpat Chariots, Weapons and the Horse in the Harappan Civilization - Dr. BK Manjul
ruclips.net/video/fZvKpjjTpgg/видео.html
Findings from the latest genetic study conducted by ASI in collaboration withe Reich Lab at Harvard using the ancient DNA from Rakhigarhi
slides at 29:00 mark
ruclips.net/video/Dio3Ep0nlv4/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/n4WFk0iEK5k/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/f0Lg1b_8N54/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/-wIu3dUsmtY/видео.html
Here are the tribes that spread the Indo European languages from South Asia to West Asia, Central Asia and to Europe
Avestan) Afghanistan: Proto-Iranian: Sairima (Śimyu), Dahi (Dāsa).
NE Afghanistan: Proto-Iranian: Nuristani/Piśācin (Viṣāṇin).
Pakhtoonistan (NW Pakistan), South Afghanistan: Iranian: Pakhtoon/Pashtu (Paktha).
Baluchistan (SW Pakistan), SE Iran: Iranian: Bolan/Baluchi (Bhalāna).
NE Iran: Iranian: Parthian/Parthava (Pṛthu/Pārthava).
SW Iran: Iranian: Parsua/Persian (Parśu/Parśava).
NW Iran: Iranian: Madai/Mede (Madra).
Uzbekistan: Iranian: Khiva/Khwarezmian (Śiva).
W. Turkmenistan: Iranian: Dahae (Dāsa).
Ukraine, S, Russia: Iranian: Alan (Alina), Sarmatian (Śimyu).
Turkey: Thraco-Phrygian/Armenian: Phryge/Phrygian (Bhṛgu).
Romania, Bulgaria: Thraco-Phrygian/Armenian: Dacian (Dāsa).
Greece: Greek: Hellene (Alina).
Albania: Albanian: Sirmio (Śimyu).
Click on for the full 4 part article by Shrikant G. Talageri
talageri.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-recorded-history-of-indo-european.html
Five waves of Indo-European expansion: a preliminary model (2018)
Igor A Tonoyan-Belyayev
I. Tonoyan-Belyayev
www.academia.edu/36998766/Five_waves_of_Indo-European_expansion_a_preliminary_model_2018_
Mayuresh Kelkar
This is just crap .. how do he prove that Aryan came to India from Outside. on what basis. Why not Aryan went out to different part of world like Buddhist traveled across the world?
@@profrajeshmaurya5078 Genetics.
@@redman1249 how ? . European has R1A1 from Indians.
@@profrajeshmaurya5078 the fuck, lmao please study about R1A1 gene yourself don't make your opinion of what you ahead. Don't be in a ignorant before comment on it make sure you have researched it yourself
Nowhere he mentioned the Pali Prakrit language as its older than sanskrit, but he mentioned as pre sanskrit language
Older than sanskrit 😂😂😂 where did you read it whatsapp university
The caste system which seems to have been introduced isn't a race/ethnic based system of social discrimination like western colonialism or the western concept of slavery, but seems to be a job based immigration restriction policy like the US, Australian, and Western European immigration policy today thst has outlived its usefulness. It is not race based, it is based on the jobs you are allowed to take up. I wonder if the reason for the introduction of caste system took place at a time when there was very large uncontrolled immigration into India from outside, and caste was introduced to to prevent social instability from uncontrolled immigration.
Some groups are trying to uproot tree of life and plant artificial tree.
The tree of life survived in most severe weathers, tsunamis, typhoons, etc
Some termites are trying to kill it but they can’t.
Tony Joseph should enlighten us about srinivas tallagari claims that speakers of indo European migrated from South Asia
Read the book, path breaking book with overwhelming evidences. Perhaps the best one I had read in 2019 after Sapiens.
@youcometome9 Zero proof but big words. As expected from an illiterate.
@youcometome9 Never debunked. We should have a debate with these two persons on each side.
Sir, You have talked about the Harappa Civilization and migration of the Indo European Language speakers.. You mentioned nothing about the Indians of the South.India. Were they not civilized then whereby you said nothing about them.?
So 'archaic Indians' just vanished!! What if the Iranian people co-existed in India, as they were present in Mehergarh? What was the origin of Iranian people, if the origin of modern man is from OOA people? Is it not possible that Iranian and Indian people were the same, as there was no India and no Iran that time, but there was striking similarity between Zend Avesta and Vedas, as The languages of the Avesta and the Vedas shared some vocabulary that is not shared with the other Indo-European languages. May be OOA people migrated from Africa and mingled with them? They produced mixed children. In Mahabharata Bhima married Hidimba, and Arjuna married Ulupi. However, This type of discussions remind me of the police detectives in Sherlock Holmes stories, like Inspector G. Lestrade, or Mr. Lestrade. First they determined who would be the murderer or the thief, so that they could get their promotion or newspaper fame. Then they started collecting evidence to catch the most wrong person. Was earth really such a big place those days that a long journey could be termed migration? How were the pyramids built, can you explain? And who determines it that they, the so called OOA people were not present both places already, In Africa and in India at the same time, and no migration was needed, or they were present in many places? Genetics. But there is no genetics if there is no fossil. Genetics is still evolving. Twin brothers or sisters are not genetically exactly the same. Are they? And this is not the end of the search. The earliest fossil will lose its place if new discoveries take place. Moreover, you just kill the enormous time-gaps like 5000 years or 7000 years as if those are just several weeks or months.
Even if we agree on out of Africa theory,
We have ponder on 4th migration,
If it is a invasion, they could have brought veda with them.
If it was a migration, why not the veda already there in the ancient india before 4th migration.
It is childish to say the 3 migration did not offer anything to ancient india ,( like Veda) in their 10000 years of occupation. There is a possibility 4th migration taken the ideas/ work from the earlier 3 migration.
And also, mahabharat and Ramayana should be fiction or otherwise it happened outside ancient india. ( if you say the 4th migration bring veda.
This is just crap .. how do he prove that Aryan came to India from Outside. on what basis. Why not Aryan went out to different part of world like Buddhist traveled across the world?
@@profrajeshmaurya5078 DNA study.
@@அரசன்நாடார் how ?
All Vedic culture books refer to Rivers and landscape of Bharat. Entire Vedic culture was developed by people of Bharat.
Lies
it started well, everything started from Africa and India, but europien are the real people . that shows where these people are trying to take the general public. There was a way from africa to India through land which went below water in south. Aryans may not remembering that.
Oh no... This is the fact based scholarly work: Indian Civilisation: The Untold Story - Revisited | Raj Vedam | Aryan Invasion/Migration Theory ::ruclips.net/video/1bsyi4zYHP0/видео.html
Seems like the horrific castes systems are the thing that has contributed to people suffering the most within their homeland. Even the people considered as outside of the castes leave India and find exceptional success, wealth, and academic achievement. Yet the body language of the gentleman on the right still echoes the sentiment of excusing the behaviors of the people who instituted practices that categorized people based on phenotypes and physical attributes rather than individual prowess. When it seems that the major role race had on how cultures contributed towards the shaping of modern India that of earlier waves of prehistoric cultures being darker and as the successive waves of population arrived they each became lighter skinned and each brought with them more progressive cultures and technologies. Which also is appropriate given that thousands of years are passing between these successive waves of population influxes. This thinking only leads to division and weakness.
Now what happened to the Aryan invasion theory or migration theory propounded by the so called greats Leftosecular historians? This appears to be another effort of such people to obfuscate actual reality that on genetic level, Indians are the same & there is no such Aryan dravidan devide.
Yes there is no such Aryan Dravidian divide, similarly there is no Indian British divide either.
It has been made clear that Dravidian ideology is not based on DNA or Language, but the Dravidian ideology(Opposes Varna System) is just an counter to the Aryan Ideology(which proposes Varna system).
Dravidian Pioneers have made it clear the term Dravidian is not racial connotation but just ideological. Ambedkar acknowledges that the strife between Buddhism and Brahmanism is a crucial fact in Indian history. Also we can find that the history of south is clearly a fight between Buddhism and Brahminism. And Dravidian Ideology identifies Buddhism not as a religion but as a revolt 2000 years back. Dravidian ideology acknowledges these facts to.
Please read about Dravidian ideology before commenting on it.
@@@ajithkumar4643, Never heard of any dravidan or Aryan ideology. Do you have any reference book? The much hyped birth bases barna system is not part of any of the vedic tradition & basically a byproduct of later endogamic habits & dealt in later literatures, which had it's advantages & disadvantages. But then south India is & was never free from barna & also jati system. As far as Buddhism is concerned, it is based on Hindu Sankhya philosophy of sage Kapila & was never in any way a revolt against barna/ jati system as during the time of Buddha the later birth based barna/ jati system was not well defined.
@@ssekhar8660 Dravidian ideology is based on rationalism, and science. It's against division of society with respect to any factor. There are a number of books that you get just by googling Dravidian ideology books. If you are really interested in Dravidian ideology you can visit periyarbooks.in for books on various topics. My recommendation is Why women got enslaved?
The vedas mention about the four varnas, it can be seen under purusha suktha Rig Veda Chapter 10. The Bhagavat Gita goes to explain the varnas.
All stories about Buddha that we come to know have been mystified ones and are false.
First we need to know that Buddhism has many sects, the one called Teravadha, closely resembles the original teachings and it was written in pali canon(Buddha wanted his teachings to be in people's language and not in sanskrit). But latter around 9-10 century AD you can see the raising of Mahayana Buddhism, which largely adopted the vedic teachings and diluted the original teachings of Buddha and Buddhism, also it was written in sanskrit unlike earlier.
There are so many Tamil literatures that talk about war with Aryan kings. We have so many tamil Buddhist and Jain literatures that are against vedic preaching.
But as i said the Dravidian ideology is not based on just history. It is based on rationalism, self respect, equality, freedom and fraternity. One example of Dravidian ideology- In Tamil Nadu the marriage couples need not have the permission of their parents, or follow any rituals to marry.
Ya the book is nothing but shit.. anti hindu venom
@@ajithkumar4643 don't read too much shit.. there is nothing known as dravidian or aryran, its all just cooked up story
People had to walk everywhere.
excellent discussion.
Baghpat Chariots, Weapons and the Horse in the Harappan Civilization - Dr. BK Manjul
ruclips.net/video/fZvKpjjTpgg/видео.html
Findings from the latest genetic study conducted by ASI in collaboration withe Reich Lab at Harvard using the ancient DNA from Rakhigarhi
slides at 29:00 mark
ruclips.net/video/Dio3Ep0nlv4/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/n4WFk0iEK5k/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/f0Lg1b_8N54/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/-wIu3dUsmtY/видео.html
Here are the tribes that spread the Indo European languages from South Asia to West Asia, Central Asia and to Europe
Avestan) Afghanistan: Proto-Iranian: Sairima (Śimyu), Dahi (Dāsa).
NE Afghanistan: Proto-Iranian: Nuristani/Piśācin (Viṣāṇin).
Pakhtoonistan (NW Pakistan), South Afghanistan: Iranian: Pakhtoon/Pashtu (Paktha).
Baluchistan (SW Pakistan), SE Iran: Iranian: Bolan/Baluchi (Bhalāna).
NE Iran: Iranian: Parthian/Parthava (Pṛthu/Pārthava).
SW Iran: Iranian: Parsua/Persian (Parśu/Parśava).
NW Iran: Iranian: Madai/Mede (Madra).
Uzbekistan: Iranian: Khiva/Khwarezmian (Śiva).
W. Turkmenistan: Iranian: Dahae (Dāsa).
Ukraine, S, Russia: Iranian: Alan (Alina), Sarmatian (Śimyu).
Turkey: Thraco-Phrygian/Armenian: Phryge/Phrygian (Bhṛgu).
Romania, Bulgaria: Thraco-Phrygian/Armenian: Dacian (Dāsa).
Greece: Greek: Hellene (Alina).
Albania: Albanian: Sirmio (Śimyu).
Click on for the full 4 part article by Shrikant G. Talageri
talageri.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-recorded-history-of-indo-european.html
Five waves of Indo-European expansion: a preliminary model (2018)
Igor A Tonoyan-Belyayev
I. Tonoyan-Belyayev
www.academia.edu/36998766/Five_waves_of_Indo-European_expansion_a_preliminary_model_2018_
Mayuresh Kelkar
I have this book
Good book
Sir, There was a school of thought that said the Afrikaans came to south Indian shores by the Sea ..Is it possible that they migrated to the North and became part of the Indus Civilisation ?
That is more likely.
Sea travel did not exist at that time
Lol what? No
Yes it is true that Africans came nearly 60000-70000years ago to India. But there are sites in India citing that humans lived here before 70000BCE too. Also, there are evidences of human species in the Indian Subcontinent before 150000years BP.
Nah that's false. The Harappans are ancient pastoralists from the Iranian plains and migrated to India at around 5000 BC. The Indo-Aryans migrated here at around 1500 BC.
This book is the result of borrowed ideas from west, absurd to call it a research based book.addition on another historian in the list of christocommunist and islamist historians like romila thapar ,irfan habib
Again very superficial analysis. No concrete evidence neither from archeological or linguistic side. All speculations.
Manusmriti needs to be understood as the codification of societal norms of that era and not as a prescriptive text. It may have been a rule book for a comparatively small population as well. But it definitely had the effect of a prescriptive text in the coming millennia on a much bigger population. We can see this even in the social practices in Kerala just a century ago.
1) Valmiki a Dalit become a Maharishi and respected by all 2) Ravan a Brahman considered a Demon and his family burns very village and every where.
Ravana was a dark-skinned dravidian. So, he was called an asuran and got assassinated. In order to justify that he was a scholar and a great warrior, he was said to be born to a Brahmin father.
Valmiki was told to be the son of sage Prachtesa. He was later adopted by Shudra parents. Valmiki reinforced brahminical ideology in spite of being a "dalit".
This is called maintaing optics. Just like BJP selecting a dalit president during it's term while also cleaning temples right after his visit to " purify" it.
P.S: I know you are just a troll account but please stop tainting Ambedkar's name in the process.
kpk ravana was a Brahman and he was in north . Current day Noida
@@profrajeshmaurya5078 Ravana being from Noida is Subramaniam Swamy's school of mythology. Glad, Mahabharata is NOT history but is mythology, a story, a creation, an epic and a very good one which teaches us how to live and lead a virtuous and real life.
Why would a Brahman man (top of the Caste hierarchy) leave his birthplace (presuming its Noida) and go all the way to Sri Lanka? Apply some logic Maurya saab.
@@sharmapratyush007 Mahabharata is not a myth see the reaserches that has been conducted relating to sarwati river and the archaelogical evidences the astronomical evidences and to tell you that astrology is not some part of science which can be taken as appox it is pinpoint(not the furture gusses of so called ghingi jotishi) but the real science is very accurate don't fall for the leftist theroies taking it as a myth..this the irony here we are considered myth when we have the most accurate and detailed discription in our SCRIPTURES...and that too not just 1500 2000 years old like other religions here I am talikng abiut something beyond 17000 bce atlst..the archaeological oceanology climatology evidences of DWARKAS destruction and sinkimg into thw water...the astronomical achaelogical evidences of MAHABHARTA about the river sarswati you can see real reseachers working thier lifes off to seek the trusth and what we are seeing is some froup of famous people disgracing our own culture and history its sad but currently its the truth we have been deprived of our history and our pride at the moment
Talks like this convince me even more to only talk to black people when discussing ancient history, after all it they whom we're talking about.
What if mixing of so called early Indians and Aryans happened after a bunch of Aryas were sent out. Same with the other people that were supposed to have moved in.
I think both arguments for and against a 'migration into India' theory have to be taken with a pinch of salt. The field of Genetics continues to evolve, and is nowhere close to perfect. I just read about identical twins who got slightly different genetic results, as conclusions are still largely based on statistical analysis of samples of the genetic data. I'm glad though, that as the science gets better (along with processing power and analytics), we'll have a better understanding of human evolution. In the meantime, we can have ringside seats at the various arguments flying around...
This is similar to flat earth arguments. There is enough evidence from archeological, genetics, literature like the Rigveda and linguistics to show an Indo European migration in to this country
what a funny world, me, a nationalist and Tharoor a left-wing secularist agreeing on the Migration history of India
That's because science is not left wing or right wing.🙃 Only factually proven. Politics should not affect scientific tempor and proof.
if only it were so..
@China Russia many cases of that as well as the suppression of it for contemporary ideologies like hindutva
@China Russia It's not about white ancestry. It's about migrations of humans at different points if time. That's all. It's about anthropology, not race. There is no superior white Aryan race. All of us are 100 percent Homo Sapien with some having Neanderthal genetics as well.
@China Russia It's not a white ancestor. It's only about understanding human migration, just like the out of Africa migrations.
srikaant talageri >>
Tony Joseph of course don't believe in Saraswati river that dried up 4000 years ago mentioned in the rig veda.
@Malini salim babu There was no Iran five thousand years ago there was only aryavarta and rig veda which included the area of Iran Afghanistan punjab gangetic plains only in recent years these became different countries. Iranian avesta is derived text from rig veda.
@Malini salim babu if east India means Bengali and Oriya they are part of vedic tradition only as for South they have agamas very evolved and vedic traditions doesn't have any problem with that unlike Abrahamic traditions which are exclusive and does not tolerate others but vedic traditions say truth is one but wise speak it differently so there was no intolerance but co existence and intermingling between vedic and South Indian agamas traditions and many other things.
@Malini salim babu
There is a thought that the Sanskrit has evolved out of Tamil and it was Shiva who created it. Shiva is also considered the Creator of Tamil.
The Vedas clearly have evolved after Sanskrit.
It is also quite likely that after death of Sati, Shiva migrated to Himalayas, took Parvati, Ganga & Chandra upon himself and lived as a yogi in the Himalayas.
That shows a migration from South India to North India.
That can also explain the DNA migration from South to North.
During the Dwapara Yuga, Krishna told his children & people to change their style, languages and customs and spread themselves all over the globe, supposedly inorder to get away from the curse of Gandhari. It was of that curse that yadava brothers fought for silly disputes and killed each other. (Something very similar to Cain & Abel in Semitic stories)
That is why the Semitic religions start with God as the father. Krishna has spoken in the Bhagawad Gita that he is the Father. (Pitaa aham asya jagataam...) After his swaragaarohanam, he came to be known as the 'Father in Heaven'.
If we can take clues from ancient stories as well, there will be lot of understanding that world is one and there isn't any cause for conflict.
The ancient Indian philosophy is so evolved that despite differences that one might see in vaishnavaites and shaivites systems, the philosophies tolerated each other primarily because it was based on Vedic universality
Yes.Now vasant shinde and Harvard professor scientific study proves that we are original indians
@@rasputin774 if you think you are smarter than those scientist go and make your logical vedio.or accept the new development. Dont tell your mythology mythology here.this aaryan and dravidian myth is naked now.how south indian political party's will live now.
27:23 Could that be because they were ruled by the Anunnaki who didn't live on 'Earth'? 😮
Must read book by all indians
Why, is not enough got converted 😂
What Shashi tharoor would like to say now about CATTLE CLASS 😀
1) Valmiki a dalit become Mahrishi 2) Ravan a Brahman become Demon . Tony educate yourself.
You recite what the clown Subramanian samy says, those are the lies told by Brahmins for 2000 years
@@devuuu7940 which part is wrong?
Krishana which is supreme God was dark skinned. You must be ashamed of dividing society with skin color when we talk about society.
@@devuuu7940 you must a rice bag convert ?
@@profrajeshmaurya5078 and you must rice bag chutiya
Varna is not exactly skin color but the personality or interest .
Who were early indian? What there language?
Tamil
@@ram0210 not Tamil but may be pre proto-dravidian..
@@cbadaik5694
There is no something call proto Dravidians..
this Name was Invented by Caldwell with Ulterior motives..
If Tamil was a a dead language then they may be use the word Tamil ...
But still That language is Existing and They don't want that pride goes to Tamils and named After Dravidian...
@@ram0210 Tamil developed later during 300 BCE. Prior to that There was language which was parent language of all Dravidian languages which was spoken during 2000BCE in peninsular India.
@@cbadaik5694 any evidence?
Read a book a day for a year ?😕
- its a breakthrough book of preconceived hypothesis and guess work -
- great book of fake science and of confirmation bias -
- basically a whole lot of bull -
There is no genetic basis of aryan dravidian caste divide. The so called aryan r1a1 is found in the highest concentration in Toda tribes in Nilligri hills who are purely Dravidian in language in culture and next highest in Manipuri people who are sino-tibetian, both having more than that in punjabis. I wonder why tony forgot to talk about these things XD... perhaps some political agenda ?
@@okthen.2235 where did you get this information.He said what his source was.if u can't show ur source then it should be assumed that u are lying because of political ideology
53:00
Myth
This is just crap .. how do he prove that Aryan came to India from Outside. on what basis. Why not Aryan went out to different part of world like Buddhist traveled across the world?
Vedic people were in Mattani ( Syria) apprx 4000 yrs back there is Archeological proof of it.
At 52 the TRUTH is at last OUTED..!!!
The spread of Indo European languages was due to the peoples who spoke original languages and inhabited the Euroasian Steppe where horses originated. The peoples there were the first to tame and ride horses. That enabled them to move widely and speedily across EuroAsian plain to Iran and India and across Europe.
The process was repeated later in history by the Scythians, the Huns, the Turkic and the Mongols like Chengiz Khan who built the largest empire from Hungry in Central Europe to Pacific Ocean.
There is no mention of any word Aryan in any of the languages of Indian subcontinent.
The horses mentioned in Vedas are horses with 34 ribs (which is indigenous to Indian Subcontinent) while the Steppe and Central Asian horses have 36 ribs.
This book is scientifically flawed... it's crap
Fascinating!
Baghpat Chariots, Weapons and the Horse in the Harappan Civilization - Dr. BK Manjul
ruclips.net/video/fZvKpjjTpgg/видео.html
Findings from the latest genetic study conducted by ASI in collaboration withe Reich Lab at Harvard using the ancient DNA from Rakhigarhi
slides at 29:00 mark
ruclips.net/video/Dio3Ep0nlv4/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/n4WFk0iEK5k/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/f0Lg1b_8N54/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/-wIu3dUsmtY/видео.html
Here are the tribes that spread the Indo European languages from South Asia to West Asia, Central Asia and to Europe
Avestan) Afghanistan: Proto-Iranian: Sairima (Śimyu), Dahi (Dāsa).
NE Afghanistan: Proto-Iranian: Nuristani/Piśācin (Viṣāṇin).
Pakhtoonistan (NW Pakistan), South Afghanistan: Iranian: Pakhtoon/Pashtu (Paktha).
Baluchistan (SW Pakistan), SE Iran: Iranian: Bolan/Baluchi (Bhalāna).
NE Iran: Iranian: Parthian/Parthava (Pṛthu/Pārthava).
SW Iran: Iranian: Parsua/Persian (Parśu/Parśava).
NW Iran: Iranian: Madai/Mede (Madra).
Uzbekistan: Iranian: Khiva/Khwarezmian (Śiva).
W. Turkmenistan: Iranian: Dahae (Dāsa).
Ukraine, S, Russia: Iranian: Alan (Alina), Sarmatian (Śimyu).
Turkey: Thraco-Phrygian/Armenian: Phryge/Phrygian (Bhṛgu).
Romania, Bulgaria: Thraco-Phrygian/Armenian: Dacian (Dāsa).
Greece: Greek: Hellene (Alina).
Albania: Albanian: Sirmio (Śimyu).
Click on for the full 4 part article by Shrikant G. Talageri
talageri.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-recorded-history-of-indo-european.html
Five waves of Indo-European expansion: a preliminary model (2018)
Igor A Tonoyan-Belyayev
I. Tonoyan-Belyayev
www.academia.edu/36998766/Five_waves_of_Indo-European_expansion_a_preliminary_model_2018_
Mayuresh Kelkar
Mr., Joseph, why are there so many statues. paintings, stone etching of black people/gods all over Asia, Thank You
Is BJP trying to introduce new caste system due to political reason same as the first introduction in 1 century CE?
Their sinister father organisation believes in the Manusmriti order of castes. It's no surprise dude.
5:30
Don’t worry Modi will take us all to those semi barbaric reign
The moderator in the centre seems arrogant with legs almost coming over the table.
A liberal & democratic moderaters are not heard in today's time simply because of this reason.
I'm more confused
There is no genetic basis of aryan dravidian caste divide. The so called aryan r1a1 is found in the highest concentration in Toda tribes in Nilligri hills who are purely Dravidian in language in culture and next highest in Manipuri people who are sino-tibetian, both having more than that in punjabis. I wonder why tony forgot to talk about these things XD perhaps some political agenda ?
Conclusion....ram Ramayan ,,jaisa kuch nahi hua tha🤣🤣🤣
A very interesting discussion, I did not realise that varna, meant colour.
What's that hate-monger and sanghi sweetheart Tarek Fateh doing there? His vitriolic comments caused a major embarrassment for India recently.
LIBERALS ARE HATE MONGERS BY DEFAULT ......
14:00!
A cake with too much icing..
I agree with the 4 waves of migration but just the early African migrations (indigenous Harappan / Indus Valley civilization/adhivasis ) came from Eastern Africa (Ethiopian area) and an be traced to the biblical document to show that after a world wide flood (Noah’s time flood): post flood there was only one family - Noah and his 3 sons , Shem; Japheth and Hem: their descendants dispersed world wide . Hem and his descendants Cush settled in the eastern most part of Mediterranean area - Thus forming the early Indus Valley civilization (the eastern wind of the Horn of Africa ) but this was dated approximately 3600-3300 BCE, not 65,000 years ago. The earth is no more than 6500 years old itself not 65;000 years ago. Once they settled and started farming along the Indus River and its tributaries: they formed one of the early civilizations when there existed the early Mesopotamian civilizations- Sumer, ancient Egypt etc.
Where the fuck did religion come into this? Are you insane, and whats this abrahamic biblical bullshit in science
Bruh are you high?😂. Earth is 6500 years old😂. Educate yourself please and stop connecting your religious dogma with science. You can practice your faith without having to connect it to science.
Sounds like the person who believes God created earth in 6 days
One more religiously brain washed home sapient..
17:55 what the are you even talking about? Caste endogamy existed way before 1st century CE. To give a concrete example, the Mahabarata itself was written in 600 BCE (700 years older than your claim) which was a strong proponant of caste dharma. How can there even be a caste system without endogamy? 🤦♂️
Mahabharata is NOT history but is mythology, a story, a creation, an epic and a very good one which teaches us how to live and lead a virtuous and real life.
Yeah but Mahabharata has been re-written over and over again. There are two aspects to the epic - the narrative and the dicdatic. The dicdatic section entered the epic much after the narrative.
Tony is missing the point that Aryan migration was gender biased .. it was men on chariots .. so it was more of a army invasion like Mughals ... and they took women from India .. so mother dna is similar for all Indians ..
Well the verdict is out. The charot found in Sinauli, Uttar Pradesh, is the dated from back in the *Bronze Age* (meaning back in the Indus Valley time). Then the DNA of a 2 couples near the chariot site is shown to have no trace of Central Asian haplogroup. Thus it is clear that the Aryan Invasion Theory is simply bullshit and *that's that!*
@@SergeantFunDay First in his book he says there have been four migrations into India.
1. Out of Africa
2. West african/Iranian Agriculturalists
3. Steppe pastoralist/aryan migration
4. Inflow of other migrants/austroasiatic language speakers
ruclips.net/video/ORylLlh0lpo/видео.html
A very simple question, Why can't it be a gift to the king form Mesopotamia? Because Mesopotamia extensively used chariots?
Also according to the World genome project we know that India has R1a Haplogroup(steppe gene/aryan gene/central asian haplogroup) and resulting mutations even today, so even based on your statement, why can't the skeletons belong to west African migrants who where there here before the steppe migrants(who have Central Asian Haplogroup)?
Why can't the skeleton(king) have received the chariot as a gift from Mesopotamia?
The book instead of debunking the Aryan invasion theory actually throws limelight on Aryan invation theory, except it terms Aryan invasion as aryan migration.
@MrKaskelen Looks like a spoked wheel to me. "Not a real chariot" - well....the evidence is in the pudding. But ofcourse you'll casually deny it is a real one. That's too bad - because it's there.
ruclips.net/video/zlvl4h3OsFk/видео.html
@MrKaskelen Not only that it has spoked wheels - it also has copper metals in there. Now that's fascinating, especially for a bronze age chariot of the time!
@@ajithkumar4643 These are lofty explanations. You know that the evidence stacked against the theory is more than the evidence to support the theories. You're best not to back peddle with such theories like that, knowing that people will pursue such lies like that. The theory should have obtainable set of evidence. *The burden of proof is on you* not the other way around.
Sinduistan/Pakistan
Gaga Jamna/whatever u want to say gaga jamnistan/darvidian_trividianistan or nadu
A lie
One lie to cover that lie
One more lie to support that lie.
Thousands of lies to cover those lies.
Then it becomes book of lies.
Truth accept facts and reaiity.
This book has so many loopholes in it. It is fascinating how people can go to such an extent to build the empire on lies and half truths.
Pls mention flows
can you pls mention the loopholes and half truths....pls
Please debunk with facts
*O so where Arya came from today, the origin of his religion has been destroyed, how did this happen?* 👎
Arya came from the proto Indo Europeans and our pantheon of Gods is very similar to the ones in Greek and Germanic mythology. One could even say they are the same.
यूरोप में भी हमारे भगवान् की पूजा की जाती है इसका अर्थ है कि हम वहीं से आए हैं ये बिल्कुल ग़लत बात है😂
फिर तो अल्ला को या इस्लाम को भारत में भी मानने वाले हैं इसका मतलब क्या ये हुआ कि इस्लाम का उदय भारत में ही हुआ है?
बोलो
@@user-bw6zw4jo4o That's only one similar aspect. Jake padho bhai. Yaha faltu ki cheez mat thuko.
तुम जा कर पढ़ो प्राचीन भारत
अभी तक निष्कर्ष नहीं दिया गया है कि आखिर आर्य कहां के रहने वाले थे
और अब तो 1500 bc में आर्य के हमले की बात भी गलत साबित हो चुकी है
You guys should have invited that RSS Gentleman rajiv malhotra.
suheil pinto he just has rhetoric and made up facts. Peer review is his enemy.
Ram is not an rss man. Please read about him before making such remarks.
Comments about Reich lab work retrieved from the Eurogenes blog. There approach has fatal methodological problems. They assume that the entire Indian Subcontinent was populated by the Andamanese Onge population just 3500 BCE an assumption that is demonstrably false.
"Regarding Reich/Harvard and his genetic successes, I don't think that in Europe he/they are a reference. He has to defend an ideological agenda and that is why his conclusions are often wrong (in the case of BB culture they are scandalously wrong and biased)
As always, the supporters of the steppe theory applaud that agenda when it suits them and run away like rabbits when they talk about Iranian ancestry.But the fault is yours for the sickly obsession for bringing everything from the steppes. You have to overcome the trauma of the failure of the Yamnaya culture, 2019 has shown that it was just a fable which has generated useless discussions for 5 years
@Davidski-Remember that my friends talked about M269 in northern Russia? it seems to be true and that Volosovo has a lot to say. However they talked about L51 and it seems that this haplogroup does not appear- I'm curious to check its origin
@Ric said-At least we do not sit with Haplogroup R1b in Western Europe during the Paleolithic kind of scenario anymore...
R1b has been in Western Europe since the epigravettian and the Villabruna cluster is indispensable to understand the genetics of modern Europeans-
The BBculture saved your collective L21 butts when the Iranian/Indoeuropeans was terrorizing mainland Europe"
"The funniest thing is to say that they probably spoke IE, taking into account that until a few months ago, everyone was convinced about the origin of IE and R1bL51 / P312 in the Yamnaya culture, it is not surprising that some stubborn people still insist on demonstrating that steppe origin-
Now they do not even agree on the origin, the age and the composition of CHG, it will be a pleasure to see how they continue to make a fool of themselves"
Rob
"Harvard are being dishonest, fudging sasmples and withholding others.
On top of that, we have to watch Reich prance around preaching about a continent he has no clue about, promoting his shitty book
So I really dont care for them."
This book was part of the political build up for the General Elections. But sadly Tony's sponsors lost their money !!!
The irony of a western-named kallu telling Indians what they are in the face of overwhelming evidence otherwise. Right.
Vasant shinde scientific study proves this as lie.
Step is a hypothetical location there is no proof for it, so don't claim as facts. This hypothetical location is not based on any facts but a middle point location between the indo european language speaking area done assumed by euro centric historians/linguistics /archeologist.
It is like u take draveedian language speaking area from Baloochisthan to Tamilnadu and say draveedians originated in Maharashtra and spread to both sides, there is nothing science in it or intelligence in it but only idiotic assumption with white supremacy of euro centrist who dose not want to acknowledge that they got their language from India or Persia, But a barren land 'step' without any claimants.
If you have money you can buy any number of historians /writers /archeologist / scientists just by throwing some dog biscuits.
Tony joseph is just one among the dogs barking for biscuits from eurocentric white supreamist.
Looks like Politician and missionary funded book.
Joseph spewing propaganda that even the authors of the paper has rejected
Dide, just FO!
Well the verdict is out. The charot found in Sinauli, Uttar Pradesh, is the dated from back in the *Bronze Age* (meaning back in the Indus Valley time). Then the DNA of a 2 couples near the chariot site is shown to have *no trace of Central Asian haplogroup.* Thus it is clear that the Aryan Invasion Theory is simply bullshit and * that's that!
*
From what is present in the public domain,the animal which was pulling the chariot is not certain.As for the DNA testing,can you guide me to reference
Thats not an Indo Iranian chariot but a Mesopotamian one. The closest people speaking basal Sanskrit are Kalasha on the Pak /Afghan border and many of them look Eastern European or Balkanite. They did not invade but they definitely diffuse via admixed Central Asian populations who stream through.
Laughing stock 😂
This is topic for Indians to discuss , where are these Non Indians interested in it.
What are you trying to say kid?
Science and scholarship is international
Listen to the ancient Indians - no.menrion of a migration from anywhere. These people wrote the Vedas. Again, no mention of what must have been a multi-generational and mammoth trek. Not a word.
Aryan or Dravidian or whatever, we all came from Africa, the original 'mata'. Let's agree on that.
All races and peoples want to claim superiority over others.
Not All but 'Some'
@Rudra why?
@Rudra Out of Africa is doubtful? Share a link please to multiple research papers corroborating this statement of yours. Not just one as that is not enough. Feelings must not impact the search for our origin, else the Europeans would have tried to forcefully proven Europe as the homeland of Humans and not Africa. Yet Africa is the place from where multiple waves of Homind migration occurred, the last being the Homo Sapiens Sapiens.
@Rudra And this has shown your feelings rather than logic. Hence no need to pay heed to you. Commend yourself, as you are just slightly better than Abrahamic creationists who think Humans came from Eden.🤦♂️
@@JJL57 Nah all except some feeling oriented people who have go attach their feelings to science.
What surprised me was when I realized when I read from right to left, the T-AM-IL sounds as IL-AM-T or ELAMITE in English. The middle easterners read/write from right to left anyway. That alone is a solid proof to start with that there clearly was a connection between modern day Tamil and the ancient Elamites. Also there is a continuity even now, the Tamils in Sri Lanka are called Elam Tamils, at the tip of TamilNadu.
Now comment section sanghis say western propaganda,british paid author, christian, italy,,....Etc ,all humans come from india.
It is very interesting that this guy mentions intermixing numerous time . Also many things can only be thought as conjecture
Excellent discussion. Shashi was also not wrong person in this panel.
It is a common sense that no community could survive in d present world
Without mixing of blood.
There were hundreds of situations of mixing blood.
Probably in earlier stage varana system was adopted by an Indo European tribes .Then mixing began during attack & invasions on one another tribe.Ladies must be d first victim during battle & war.
It was a experiment to stop rape on women folk but tragically failed.
As new occupations arose due to d development of science,technology, to safeguard their professional technical art ,those men didn't want to share with other community.
Caste came into being by varna system among tribes then transformed into same occupational groups .
Who were the homosepients found in South India when the first wave of human movement moved from Africa to South India?
30 Subramaniyam Bhakts watched this
You're soo fucking dumb.....
This is just crap .. how do he prove that Aryan came to India from Outside. on what basis. Why not Aryan went out to different part of world like Buddhist traveled across the world?
@@profrajeshmaurya5078 buddha was born only in 500 BC kiddo.
Human migrations were a bit more complex than the parivari heads claim.
@@theawkwardcurrypot9556 yes i know when Budha was borne. What is prove that ARYAN came from outside and civilized us?
@@profrajeshmaurya5078 "civilized"??
Who said that?
Tharoor is very disappointing here. He's not an expert and his loose use of terminology is problematic.
Just finished the book...excellent!!
Read Shrikant Talageri's book that is against Tony Joseph's book called "Genetics and The Aryan Debate, Early Indians, Tony Joseph's Latest Assault"
@@glennjacksonofficial3001 is that guy a Hindu nationalist? No thanks
@@TheCujo75 I don't know, but he does clearly state that genetics don't carry culture or language.
And don't say people who reject AIT are nationalists, I know it would be stupid to say the OIT is true without evidence or tampering with evidence. But he provided hard evidence for OIT, watch this fully.
Just watch this podcast : ruclips.net/video/my1nTET0-Gc/видео.html
Also there are many flaws on Tony Joseph's book, and it shouldn't have anything to do with Hindu Nationalism : indiafacts.org/journalist-attempts-to-revive-aryan-invasion-myth-using-discredited-genetic-research-book-review/
@@TheCujo75 it doesn't matter whether he is a Hindu nationalist or not. The only thing which matters are the facts which he presented in his book. He himself denied that he is a Hindu nationalist.
@@glennjacksonofficial3001 here we talk science, not political propagandalies of immature personalities with restricted intellectual capacity, my brother.
Men walked not women with their children.
romani gypsy india
33:00
Proud to be a malayali.
Genetics shows that keralties are closely related to Punjabis...XD
@@okthen.2235 That show how closely NORTH and SOUTH people are linked
Proud to be a malayali or an "Arabised" malayali?
@@indianertugrul2584 How on earth could you be an arabized Malayali? Ethnically that's impossible. The descendants of Mapillas became 1/4th , 1/8th, 1/64th and so on with respect to their Middle Eastern origins, and even by marrying within their community. It's get diluted very quickly. And this again is only applying to Northern Kerala Muslim communities. There is hardly any Middle Eastern left in people's genes. As far as 'arabized' culturally, that is a very recent phenomenon, one that is extremely tacky and shallow.
You mean -- Proud to be an Islamist.
Is there any matter regarding dravidians race in this book
Yes. *Dravidians" are harrapans and original indians mixing then small amounts of indo-european (Aryan) trickling in from the north
As per my knowledge dravidians are native people of this land before aryan immigration
@Hare Krishna yes I agree with you but I am saying evolution of civilizations happened initially by dravidians in this sub continent,, later aryans invaded this land and dravidians were pushed towards South India
@Hare Krishna cc
@@nageshalpakula9050 there are no natives of anywhere.
Dravidians just mean south Indian, south indians are a mix of initial tribal Indian with harrapans for the most part, with some north Indian genes coming in from genetic drift.
North indians and south indians share the tribal Indian gene makeup along with harrapan. North India just has higher steppe/central Asian inflow.
There's no evidence of a "Dravidian race" being pushed south by incoming "aryans". Evidence just suggests Dravidian culture was absorbed by Aryans in North and the language shifted to Sanskrit based.
Ap log sirf batware ki rajniti karte ho bhimbetka ke painting mein ghore ki paintaing jara use vhi dekheye aur sinauli jo Arya samaj se Mel khati hai
3 delhi ki purane quila ka carbon dating 3000 saal purana hai
How can you combine the thesis of Tilak that aryans had their origin in the Arctic circle before the last Ice age. Our Purana may support that thesis. The Aryans came to India when Ice age covered all Siberia with glaciers at about 26000 BC. However great flood had destroyed most of them and they had to start again. Ramayana was written in about 9000 BC and Mahabharata was written in about 5000 BC. Thus Indus Valley civilization was post Mahabharata and Indians started going out from India at about 6000 years ago first to the Middle East then to Anatolia and to Russia. R1a1 DNA has gone with them to Russia. From Russia they went to Bulgaria and Greece. These civilizations are related as a result. Try to reconcile your book to this if you can. If you cannot you are just repeating old theory in a new bottle.
In Europe, Middle East, China etc. there were pre-existing archaic species that interbred to a small extent with incoming modern humans. In India at 70,000 to 60,000 years ago there was the Mount Toba eruption (Google it) which wiped out the entire human population in the Indian subcontinent, which then had to be repopulated from the Middle East. Therefore combination with archaic populations in India does not survive if it took place, and any interbreeding with archaic populations in Indians took place in the Middle East before those populations moved into India.