-If you’re here from part one, thanks for stopping by for part two. I plan on making part three (Conviction & Blacklist) sometime in the coming months. If you’d like weekly updates on my next videos and other stuff we’re doing, consider following us on Patreon! www.patreon.com/thegamingdiscourse A few corrections/notes: --I call a few levels by their locations instead of by their name. Chaos Theory’s ‘New York’ is actually called Penthouse, but I got it mixed up with Essentials, where the level is called Manhattan Garment District, New York City and I decided to abbreviate it and call it New York. So the name is technically incorrect but partially correct? Should I even be worrying about this? --Also, I mention that Tom Clancy Games were once filled with technology that made you think of early fighter jets and night vision. The word I used to describe them was ‘inconvenient’, but I think I could’ve used a better word there, as it may not have been a great descriptor for early jet fighters. -Am I cherry-picking certain things to make my version of Sam correct? That’s an interesting thought, but I don’t think so. While you can change Sam’s actions, I think there is a version of Sam that’s coherent and consistent across the games (at least the games I’ve discussed so far). That version of Sam (violent but not malicious) is the one that I think is the most interesting while discussing the games. -On canon: The wiki says Version 2 and Essentials are not considered canon. I wasn’t sure if I needed to address this or not in the script and decided against it. Essentials still makes creative choices that are interesting, and as far as I understand, Version 1 being canon is only due to Conviction showing clips from that Version 1. This is actually a topic that I think is pretty complicated because of the commercial nature of games and how books/shows/games all end up smashing together trying to be a part of a story. I’ve always felt, with games, that games come first. This gets complicated by franchises that are split apart by different platforms and genres. So, again, it’s a complex topic, but what I’ll say for now is I believe Essentials and DAV2 have a right to exist and be analyzed alongside V1. -You could read that being able to knock out dudes at JBA HQ is due to no one wanting to admit it, thus no one knows. If Montreal worked that into the script it might be interesting, but that’s something we can only assume. Even then, what if a guard finds another guard passed out? Why don’t they do more during alarm states? I’d assume Montreal didn’t want to deal with those questions and sided with just making fun stealth missions; which I enjoyed but, yeah, I wonder if that problem could be solved in a more creative way. (You could make this same criticism of all Splinter Cells but that conversation is much bigger and leads to other games. Maybe a discussion for another time?) -In certain contexts, it might make more sense for Sam to kill Lambert. You may argue that Sam doesn't know if Emile will detonate the bombs the moment the JBA learns Sam is a spy, or maybe that Sam is in a position where if he doesn’t kill Lambert, he’ll be killed instantly. To read Sam NOT killing Lambert as an unnecessary risk is interesting, but it’s something the narrative doesn’t really consider and the moment is more about the choice Sam is forced into rather than the finer tactical details of the choice itself. Maybe the biggest problem of all is that Double Agent just isn’t well-written. -When I say it’s hard to tell if certain plot points were intended to be resolved or if they were just dropped, one example is Lambert’s line saying prison is a hell of a place to save a man’s life. This line (kind of) makes sense when considering Conviction and Sarah’s fake death, but it’s hard to tell if that was always the intention from the moment that line of Lambert’s was written. My guess is that the line was used for dramatic effect and was later a bit of dialogue that retroactively made more sense because of how Conviction was written.
I have been waiting for this, I love Double Agent's score by Behaviour aka Michael McCann, so much. I'm way more interested in a remake of this because it is so ambitious and confused.
Chaos Theory was awesome. I managed to no kill, no alarm it. Other than the necessary ones. I’ve had a soft spot even though the ones after weren’t… As simply good and satisfying.
Great followup to the first vid. I've been subscribed for a while now, no idea why I'm only seeing it now. RUclips algorithm might've screwed you. Really enjoy your stuff, man
Idk why they randomly replaced williams with reed and gave him a silly reason for betraying sam and lambert after hyping him up in essentials (i remember a bio for williams saying he got the assistant director position at third echelon due to friends in high places, so the envy thing is obviously a retcon), I'll just headcanon them as the same guy because 1. They both seem to tell their agents to be more brutal, and they both have friends in high places, and 2. it'd connect double agent and conviction more, and it'd make the end of conviction more cathartic because sam would have history with the antagonist and have way more reason to hate him lmao Also It seems to me that williams' friends in high places were probably going to be meggido, but i guess convictions devs wanted a "cooler" looking antagonist lmao
I've played every game except essentials, but from what i can tell on both videos everything he says is straight facts. and well interoperated. I mean to the point i questioned some of my in game choices; which for a +1000 hours sc guy is tough to do. tbh.
I liked how in double agent montreal you could just not defuse the bombs sent out in the second jba mission. It would have been really difficult to write into the story though, and I'm betting Montreal was pressed for time. It would have been an awesome character arc to let those nukes detonate. "I've been fighting resistance to America for decades, it hasn't worked, now is the time for change. I'm going to leak all the classified things I've learned at the NSA as a way to spite them and show the world what they've done. Im gonna radicalize Erica as a way to atone for the fact that I had to keep my daughter at a distance, and she died hardly knowing me." But theres not even a dialogue option with Williams if you deliberately give the order to ship them out in JBA part two. They didn't flesh anything out whatsoever, which just makes the whole story of the game pretty pointless in its own way. I hated the game when it came out, but I've learned to like it over the years.
I actually really liked the Enrica angle in Shanghai's version because of how abrupt it is. Sam basically uses her as cover for his exfiltration after snooping around in the JBA HQ and on his way back to his quarters he goes through her room. Right as you're about to be in the clear Enrica opens the door and sees Sam in her room with no actual reason for his being there. So he basically seduces her to conceal his actions. It's not the most fleshed out coruting or romantic in any way. It's just a means to an end, hence why I liked it. Sam's grieving his daughter, is angry at the world, and is undertaking a terribly stressful mission. With all of that combined it makes sense for him to casually just manipulate people. The scene itself is a bit abtrupt and Enrica is a bit too willing to let him in her personal space but I can write it off as her being attracted to him from previous interactions.
blacklist should had been its own thing imagine like an voron based game from russian POVs breaking into american bases and stuff like that would be highly interesting like have an story about Kestrel since he is in voron
Who is Sam Fisher ? A game character, voiced by a real life actor, end of story. Don't try to make it sound epic, it is not, it's just a series of good stealth games.
![ARGENTINA vs. PERÚ [1-0] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 12](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/xtI25ENDDSY/mqdefault.jpg)
-If you’re here from part one, thanks for stopping by for part two. I plan on making part three (Conviction & Blacklist) sometime in the coming months. If you’d like weekly updates on my next videos and other stuff we’re doing, consider following us on Patreon!
www.patreon.com/thegamingdiscourse
A few corrections/notes:
--I call a few levels by their locations instead of by their name. Chaos Theory’s ‘New York’ is actually called Penthouse, but I got it mixed up with Essentials, where the level is called Manhattan Garment District, New York City and I decided to abbreviate it and call it New York. So the name is technically incorrect but partially correct? Should I even be worrying about this?
--Also, I mention that Tom Clancy Games were once filled with technology that made you think of early fighter jets and night vision. The word I used to describe them was ‘inconvenient’, but I think I could’ve used a better word there, as it may not have been a great descriptor for early jet fighters.
-Am I cherry-picking certain things to make my version of Sam correct? That’s an interesting thought, but I don’t think so. While you can change Sam’s actions, I think there is a version of Sam that’s coherent and consistent across the games (at least the games I’ve discussed so far). That version of Sam (violent but not malicious) is the one that I think is the most interesting while discussing the games.
-On canon: The wiki says Version 2 and Essentials are not considered canon. I wasn’t sure if I needed to address this or not in the script and decided against it. Essentials still makes creative choices that are interesting, and as far as I understand, Version 1 being canon is only due to Conviction showing clips from that Version 1. This is actually a topic that I think is pretty complicated because of the commercial nature of games and how books/shows/games all end up smashing together trying to be a part of a story. I’ve always felt, with games, that games come first. This gets complicated by franchises that are split apart by different platforms and genres. So, again, it’s a complex topic, but what I’ll say for now is I believe Essentials and DAV2 have a right to exist and be analyzed alongside V1.
-You could read that being able to knock out dudes at JBA HQ is due to no one wanting to admit it, thus no one knows. If Montreal worked that into the script it might be interesting, but that’s something we can only assume. Even then, what if a guard finds another guard passed out? Why don’t they do more during alarm states? I’d assume Montreal didn’t want to deal with those questions and sided with just making fun stealth missions; which I enjoyed but, yeah, I wonder if that problem could be solved in a more creative way. (You could make this same criticism of all Splinter Cells but that conversation is much bigger and leads to other games. Maybe a discussion for another time?)
-In certain contexts, it might make more sense for Sam to kill Lambert. You may argue that Sam doesn't know if Emile will detonate the bombs the moment the JBA learns Sam is a spy, or maybe that Sam is in a position where if he doesn’t kill Lambert, he’ll be killed instantly. To read Sam NOT killing Lambert as an unnecessary risk is interesting, but it’s something the narrative doesn’t really consider and the moment is more about the choice Sam is forced into rather than the finer tactical details of the choice itself. Maybe the biggest problem of all is that Double Agent just isn’t well-written.
-When I say it’s hard to tell if certain plot points were intended to be resolved or if they were just dropped, one example is Lambert’s line saying prison is a hell of a place to save a man’s life. This line (kind of) makes sense when considering Conviction and Sarah’s fake death, but it’s hard to tell if that was always the intention from the moment that line of Lambert’s was written. My guess is that the line was used for dramatic effect and was later a bit of dialogue that retroactively made more sense because of how Conviction was written.
Fun fact, you can kill Jamie Washington in Montreal Double Agent by using the EMP on his pacemaker.
This channel deserves much more attention that its got yet
I have been waiting for this, I love Double Agent's score by Behaviour aka Michael McCann, so much. I'm way more interested in a remake of this because it is so ambitious and confused.
"Who is Sam Fisher? Can you answer that for me?"
"I ask the questions."
"But of course, that is who, what you are, nothing but questions."
Chaos Theory was awesome. I managed to no kill, no alarm it. Other than the necessary ones. I’ve had a soft spot even though the ones after weren’t… As simply good and satisfying.
How about a Retrospective of Blacklist?
Can't wait for part 3, conviction and blacklist, along with ghost recon wildlands and breakpoint.
Great followup to the first vid. I've been subscribed for a while now, no idea why I'm only seeing it now. RUclips algorithm might've screwed you. Really enjoy your stuff, man
Finally. Can't wait to watch it, been waiting for years
Excellent video, come on with part 3, cannot wait to see your thoughts about Blacklist :)
Idk why they randomly replaced williams with reed and gave him a silly reason for betraying sam and lambert after hyping him up in essentials (i remember a bio for williams saying he got the assistant director position at third echelon due to friends in high places, so the envy thing is obviously a retcon), I'll just headcanon them as the same guy because 1. They both seem to tell their agents to be more brutal, and they both have friends in high places, and 2. it'd connect double agent and conviction more, and it'd make the end of conviction more cathartic because sam would have history with the antagonist and have way more reason to hate him lmao
Also It seems to me that williams' friends in high places were probably going to be meggido, but i guess convictions devs wanted a "cooler" looking antagonist lmao
LETS GOOO
thanks so much for continuing this series!
Great video, enjoyed watching it a lot. Really well put! Thanks.
I've played every game except essentials, but from what i can tell on both videos everything he says is straight facts. and well interoperated. I mean to the point i questioned some of my in game choices; which for a +1000 hours sc guy is tough to do. tbh.
Beautifully done
I liked how in double agent montreal you could just not defuse the bombs sent out in the second jba mission. It would have been really difficult to write into the story though, and I'm betting Montreal was pressed for time.
It would have been an awesome character arc to let those nukes detonate. "I've been fighting resistance to America for decades, it hasn't worked, now is the time for change. I'm going to leak all the classified things I've learned at the NSA as a way to spite them and show the world what they've done. Im gonna radicalize Erica as a way to atone for the fact that I had to keep my daughter at a distance, and she died hardly knowing me." But theres not even a dialogue option with Williams if you deliberately give the order to ship them out in JBA part two. They didn't flesh anything out whatsoever, which just makes the whole story of the game pretty pointless in its own way. I hated the game when it came out, but I've learned to like it over the years.
I actually really liked the Enrica angle in Shanghai's version because of how abrupt it is. Sam basically uses her as cover for his exfiltration after snooping around in the JBA HQ and on his way back to his quarters he goes through her room. Right as you're about to be in the clear Enrica opens the door and sees Sam in her room with no actual reason for his being there. So he basically seduces her to conceal his actions. It's not the most fleshed out coruting or romantic in any way. It's just a means to an end, hence why I liked it. Sam's grieving his daughter, is angry at the world, and is undertaking a terribly stressful mission. With all of that combined it makes sense for him to casually just manipulate people. The scene itself is a bit abtrupt and Enrica is a bit too willing to let him in her personal space but I can write it off as her being attracted to him from previous interactions.
blacklist should had been its own thing imagine like an voron based game from russian POVs breaking into american bases and stuff like that would be highly interesting like have an story about Kestrel since he is in voron
Is part 3 still happening?
Big problem with this retrospective.
Doug was a coworker. Now victor... Victor was a friend. A brother even 🥹
HE'A BAAAAAACK!!!!
Mudi enga
Who is Sam Fisher ? A game character, voiced by a real life actor, end of story. Don't try to make it sound epic, it is not, it's just a series of good stealth games.