You really dodged a bullet of $20k. The dealership would have send your car to PHAD, pay the PHAD price and charged you the dealership price, and still come ahead. Enjoy your repaired AMG!
Hi Ivan. I was a Volvo Master tech over here in the UK. Pico scope diagnosis was part of my training. Impossible to diagnose a networked vehicle without it. Now working for an independent workshop, and much like yourself, repairing misdiagnosed vehicle from the dealer networks. Not entirely the dealer technicians faults as the mentality in dealer network is all about quick profits and bonuses. Thanks for the brilliant content and sharing information because it helps us all learn👍
And this is why so many mechanics ,including myself will not work for a dealer or most shops. The dealers get the mechanics that want to change parts and only go by the dealer diag tree, which is not always the fault of the mechanic because they are following there orders. I know in my area, There is not one shop or dealership I will work for out of pride of my work. I will not be forced to mess over customers just because the bosses want more money. Great job Ivan.
Hi Ivan, after being in the dealer system for some time can see exactly where you're coming from. The dealer system requires quick turn over purely for higher profits. The training they receive is strictly for their own branded scan tools using their own guided diagnostics for vehicles under warranty. There is a strict step by step process that techs must follow in order to determine faults (if this is not followed, ""denied"" warranty claims can be astronomical). As vehicles age the training is obviously directed to the next models usually annually and with staff turn over the skill of the older techs is usually no longer there. Ten year old car at dealers no one wants to work on them. PS we have and use PICO 7 in the train of all automotive apprentices in my work place. Great videos demonstrating knowledge is the key to a good outcome. Keep up the great work.
I am wondering what these branded scan tools can do. In many OEM service info documents, you can find waveforms. I know that BMW's OEM ISTA+ sometimes asks for a measurement box. I wonder for example if this measurement box includes basic scope functionality, and how much this differs brand to brand.
The simple fact seems to be that from a dealer perspective, there is little profit in any complicated diagnostics. Mechanics get paid to replace parts, not to figure out what is wrong.
Another great video Ivan. My theory on the not shifting to park issue is this. There was a code for a faulty gyro. When I hear gyro, I think gyroscope, which is a motion detection device. Perhaps that gyro is used to verify that the car is not moving. If the computer thinks the car is, or may be moving, it will not allow the driver to select park to prevent damage to the transmission. If the communication with the gyro is intermittent, then so will be the ability to select park. If the engine is off and the key is removed, then the computer knows that the car is stopped and it can then safely select park.
Contrary to this theory is that every modern merc will shift into park when opening a door when driving under ~10km/h or so. They don't care about the parking pawl in the transmission :D
Thumbs up this comment if you're thankful you found PHAD. This is by far one of my top 3 favourite automotive Channels. This man is absolutely brilliant. Hands down.
In 1962, my dad attended DeVry institute in Chicago. He built an Oscilloscope from a kit, complete with vacuum tubes. It looked like a portable television. I never dreamed we would use those to diagnose issues with cars. If I were him, I would have you complete the rest of repairs.
All new car dealerships have the sign out front that explains their goals "Sales and Service" service is last. Just ask any dealership staff if they could provide all the required maintenance on every vehicle that they sell for the vehicles warranty period. The level of service and dedication that you provide to your customers doesn't compare to any flat rate line tech at any dealership. I started wrenching at 14 and I am 67 now. Hoping to go till I am 70 and then retire. Continued success on your career and all your endeavors.
I worked in dealer service as a tech , no one used a scope . I think I was the only one who did at that time. And as far as training , I had all the GM service training and teachers running those classes never used scopes or recommended them. I remember a teacher yelled at me during a class when I was attempting to backprobe a connector for testing. The last shop I worked for had a Pico but it was just for vibration analysis , they didn't have any probes or Amp clamps or test leads. I had an old snap on vantage scope that I used for many years finally upgraded to the Pico. I don't currently work for the dealer anymore but when I left a few years ago GM was starting to recommend scope usage . Thanks Ivan , look forward to all your videos. And enjoy watching your technique as you challenge yourself with these oddball problems you encounter
As an electrical engineer I rarely use a standard Volt meter as it is! Sure it takes a little bit more time to set it up, but a waveform is better than looking at numbers.
I am a Ford and Lincoln certified technician and our factory training does include electrical, electronic, communications and oscilloscope training. I can't fathom how any company wouldn't in this age. I am personally highly disappointed that a dealership could misdiagnose this. It was complicated but it was 100% not an open circuit.
I loved this series, because you're taking it on to a whole new level. GM training generally focuses on voltage drop testing and utilizing the factory tool which has the ability to monitor the networks and isolate the communication issues. The scope is primarily encouraged for In cylinder analysis, relative compression testing, and NVH. Outside of that it's never heavily focused on. They provide a 4 Channel Pico, but often laptops and MDI's are scarce and in limited supply - so owning your own tools is the only way to remain efficient. The dealer focuses heavily on the diagnostic process outlined in SI...their training is heavily focused on theory of operations for their technology and brand. Universal testing techniques and electrical diagnostic's are separate areas of study depending on what you are doing on the floor. Overall, if the technician refuses to learn and grow the training is useless for them.
Not sure if it is more impressive than a maserati. I would say you SHOULD be impressed by the fact you took it from a brick to a moving vehicle. That deserves kudos.
Ivan you're a professional and a wise man on reaching out to the Mercedes Dealership. You never know, you might need dealer only information on a future repair.
I have a feeling that for the tech at the dealership (Rod), this will be the beginning of a cordial professional relationship with PHAD. He was quite communicative earlier.
I went to DeVry for electronics training back in the late 80's and scope training was super important and used in the labs daily. I recall surprise lab 'quizzes' where the instructors would wildly mess up the scope settings and you had a certain amount of time to scope some circuit. They were the classic and beautiful tektronix scopes. This training was much appreciated later when getting a job in the semiconductor industry where you were expected to be able to scope all kinds of things. As the years went on, more and more of the young folks coming in had no clue how to use a scope. Pretty sad. You are certainly old school in breaking out the scope so often and it works in your favor to really see what's going on. Great video per usual!
From my own experience with repair shops, the biggest issue is causing more problems. Often there is a tendency to just fire the parts cannon which is rarely a good idea. My grand daughter's Chevy Sonic presented such a problem. Long story short, there were several issues. The original problem was a bad intake manifold but a previous shop's attempt changed both O2 sensors because that was the trouble code. When he did, he could only get one factory sensor and one aftermarket. The aftermarket one was defective. Now the car had two issues. Somewhere along the line, the connector on the MAP sensor got cracked. Now there were three problems. The shop installed a new intake manifold which took care of the sudden loss of power issue but the check engine light came back quickly. That was when he found the issue with the aftermarket O2 sensor and put in a factory sensor. When I went to pick up the car I looked under the hood (listening for any vacuum leaks) and notice the cracked MAP sensor connector. After a new pigtail was installed the engine ran fine but then another check engine light. It turns out that at some point during all of this, the battery went dead and somehow the programming in a module was corrupted. A tech managed to reprogram it after two attempts. Now the car has been running fine for many weeks. The take-away is that the only thing wrong initially was the leaky intake manifold and there is even a notice to techs about it on the net as well as several videos about it. The plastic intake manifold is a poor design and this stalling issue is a common problem. You must use a factory manifold when replacing it. What should have been a one day repair turned into a two month saga.
The intake manifold failure on Ecotec engines is very difficult to diagnose albeit not so common. Ecotec engines absolutely need OEM O2 sensors (and probably all other sensors as the engines are very sensitive).
This is such a typical outcome for many cars. That's why a decent diagnostic guy starts out with this type of car, but if he's good, eventually customers learn to bring their cars to him FIRST and save both themselves and the diag guy headaches. The temptation is strong to go to the guys who offer "free" diagnostics, or diagnostics fees that will be taken out of the price of repair, but the HUGE mental barrier to overcome with customers is that the diagnostic IS the cake and the repair is the FROSTING. In many cases it is FAR more difficult, time consuming, and complex to do the diagnostic than the repair (and ergo far FEWER techs capable to doing the diag right whereas you can swing a dead cat and hit a mechanic capable of doing the repair) so BITING THE BULLET, paying and paying well for the diag is almost ALWAYS the cheapest way to go. Unfortunately all we can really do as diag pros is to stick to our guns, produce content illustrating our processes and case studies, then hope to red-pill these customers in onesies and twosies. Hopefully these other shops will get it that they either need to hire/cultivate their OWN diag pros, subcontract to guys like Ivan (and myself), or work out a referral program (to send the customer to us, get a small commission, then when we refer the customer to them for repairs). I believe there is a common ground between the customer, diag specialists, and "normal" (i.e. repair) shops once more hearts and minds are changed.
Ex dealer tech here! Worked in Volvo, Audi and Mercedes workshops. The training I did was very much brand and model specific and was done when new models/engines etc. came out. I newer did any general electrical classes but maybe it is available. For junior techs what you didn’t learn in school you learn in your apprenticeship time where knowledge and training is supposed to passed down from the more experienced techs. In most workshops this works and everybody benefits from it but I have seen some bad examples where junior techs change brake pads and the seniors keep all the diagnostic jobs for themselves, and provide no learning opportunities. I all depends on workshop management I suppose. Great job with the E63! I would never dared program that Ecu without online connection to Mercedes STAR but I worked out alright 👍
That AMG has a unique exhaust note when you "gave it the beans." I'll make you a deal, Ivan; I will own my '96 Mercury as long as you own yours. Yes, Scotty Kilmer is right! Great video!
Hi Ivan, I work on industrial equipment and have just returned from a 3 day training course on a new range of access machines. The training was very in depth electrically including looking at the can network, checking the can voltage was as far as we went... I totally agree that we need to use an oscilloscope along side a multi-meter now as a diagnostic tool to make sure we have as much information to help with the diagnosis of faults on modern equipment.
Ford actually teaches oscilloscope use in their factory training. All dealerships were required to have a 4channel scope. Also, the technical assistance (hotline) sometimes asks for scope patterns. However, you are correct in saying the system is stacked against you on diagnostic. Techs normally loose time on complicated diagnostic, not to mention the flat rate system encourages shortcuts and guessing. I ashamed to admit, some of my fellow techs in the industry resort to "hack" repairs. Some shops browbeat the techs, and just worry about getting the car out and start on the next one with as much billable hours as possible. I wish there was a way to fix the way business is done, but sadly I don't see it happening.
That's half of the problem...the other half is the dealership wont give the tech the authority to invest the time he/she needs to figure out the difficult jobs. That's where Ivan(and other youtubers) has the advantage. They work for themselves and can spend as much time as they want/need to figure things out where a dealership wont. I'll guarantee Ivan didn't get paid the actual amount of time he has invested in some of these jobs...I'm thinking maybe 50%. On a positive note at least he has YT back in my day we didn't have anything except DOS..🤣🤣
AMG = All Money Gone! Other then that, it is a nice little rocket... but like most luxury brands they're really not worth owning once the warranty is up.
Excellent series, and its kinda crazy that I just bought that launchpad v and just inherited a 2015 E400... Hopefully don't need the launch too often, but have it if needed... Thanks, Ivan...
Ahhh the Oscilloscope. I started lugging a Tektronix Oscope in the mid 1970's into the 90's. Non automotive related service. Thanks for the memories...
You're brilliant Ivan. As a fellow electrical engineer, I would love to see a video of your journey from an engineering degree to auto mechanic. I myself should have become a mechanic cause I hate working for others. That said, there's no need to explain your emails to the dealership. You weren't harsh enough as far as I'm concerned. You and I both know the dealership was being deceptive and lied to the customer intentionally as they started throwing parts at the car. I hate dealerships so much that I've been repairing my own cars for over 30 years. I have a 28 year old 300ZX that still runs like new. Saw my parents get ripped off by EVERY mechanic when I was a child, and ever since, I've never trusted them. Thanks for your videos.
I worked for a fleet dealership for Chrysler for 9 years and yes thief OEM training does include basic electrical and oscilloscope training the verse oscilloscope I was ever introduced to was the Chrysler DRB3 WHICH TURNED INTO A TWO CHANNEL OSCILLOSCOPE. And this was 1997 I still have my student reference guide book and a couple of other books that were giving to us we had very good training on the DRB3 oscilloscope and it came with all kinds of attachments including a low amp and high amp probe so the answer is definitively yes the manufacturer does offer training on oscilloscopes
I used to work at the MB/USA manufacturer in Alabama, for about 6 months as a diagnostic tech. Even the techs that had been there for 15 to 20 years couldn't keep up with and diagnose some of these systems and CanBus problems. Most electrical issues were bent pins and screws through wires during assembly. When I ran into a fault code many of the other techs stated to me, when I figure it out let them know. Never saw an oscilloscope used. It was always a digital volt meter and jumpers.
I was just 1st to comment on Mario's video about your success on this challenging Mercedes and how his video guided you to code its ecm and stuff.great work and a good experience 👍🏿. Cheers and happy thanks giving enjoy your holidays.
So the dealer didn't charge for the starter or the hours of misdiagnosis (nor the storage) but they were given a functional car and bricked the computer so the argument could be made they should have replaced that $1,500 part. Also, it was fantastic you were able to get the car running again - nice job! I do have to tell you, leaving the rest of the programming undone (with the exception of the lane assist - no cal tool for it) would have driven me crazy! I couldn't handle the trunk, radio and shift selector not working after dumping all that money into the car. Keep up the great work and videos. I have to say I would have given up on this one a long time ago!
Ivan, I was with you every step of the way. I was just as frustrated as you appeared to be, at times. You had good reason to be. Your tenacity is legendary - you DO NOT give up, - Amazing. "A hundred years ago," :-) my work in the USAF Aircraft Avionics Maintenance, required a lot of "Bench work," which required a lot of O'scope work. Working on the plane's weather RADAR "Receiver/transmitter," for example, you had to deal with a lot of pulse widths, as well as ensuring the pulses are set to the proper amplitudes. Have to SEE those pulses in order to "set them correctly," Scopes are a necessity. The CAN networks are exactly the same. Loved it. Thanks. I also love your graphing of voltage values.
At the very least, these days, a graphical multimeter is a must. Just so one can see the waveform, not just the averaged voltage value a regular multimeter shows.
A tremendous series as well as a long ride on the 'struggle bus' which you were able to overcome. Your expertise, knowledge and perseverance continue to impress. Well done my friend...well done.
Very nice and polite letter to the dealer. I know they are encouraged to upsell, but $20,000!? I think I'll go for a ride in my old Kia, and listen to Janis sing about it! 😊
I’m a HD Truck mechanic/tec (small shop) I wish we can get something like the thinkpad I struggle with all the different brands an systems, Allison, Fuller, Bendix, Webco, DEF, chassis models etc ! 😩 the list goes on !! Awesome job on your part 👍👍
Hi Ivan as a porsche dealer tech I can say the oscilloscope training has only been offered in the last 4 years and with the oe equipment which is not that user-friendly compared to what you use
i think its hard to say which video i like the most i have watched so many of your videos and learn from each and everyone i have never been to any schools for automotive i grew up working in a autosalvage yard and my dad taught me and i built on his knowledge your channel has benefited me more than words can explain. i also watch south main auto have learned what little i know about scopes from great people like you i learn something from each and every video thanks so much for sharing what you know you will never know how many people are helped from these type videos thanks again.
A man of exceptional patience and diagnostic skill!! My hat's off to ya - cheers from Australia!! Mercs are great cars, (better in the late 70s when I worked on them, they were then the BEST MADE cars on earth), but they've all gone down the "million features" rabbit hole these days. BOTH of my cars and my truck are quite ordinary and over or close to 20 years old. It will stay that way
I work in a shop where the owner is connected to multiple dealerships. We are constantly being brought cars from those dealerships where they can’t diagnose the problem and we have to fix it. Those dealerships include ford and GM and I know for a fact that they have a pico scope kit that has never been out of the box. I keep telling them that there is so much more they could learn to diagnose and so many things they could diagnose far more quickly if they’d actually learn to use it. I had one car from one of those dealerships I diagnosed some leaking valves for. I told him two cylinders were losing compression and it was a valve sealing issue. He asked me what the compression readings were and I had to explain to him what a relative compression test was and how I was able to pinpoint which valves were leaking. It just blows me away that some places are given the tools to make their job easier and still don’t use them or have a clue about them. So many people are under the impression that you have to be an electrical engineer to use a scope when it’s nothing more than an extremely fast graphing meter.
Awesome series Ivan!! My confidence in dealer service has deteriorated over the years. My experience says, they select boxes on the '20 point safety check' form based on meeting sales quotas or simply based on 'everyone must need a cabin air filter' (or it's just random). Earn my trust w/ the little things and I'll trust you w/ the big ones.
The dealership doesn't have time with 20 cars in the bay. I knew a guy who needed a conductor plate I told him this is a part that needs to be programmed and it's anti theft part you can't buy it over the counter. The guy took it in and they replaced a few modules but not the plate. The guy never had the issue fixed and was out 4 grand on cost of labor and modules
at the very beginning of the first video I was thinking someone spilled a drink on the center console shifter...definitely a case study in overcomplexifying stuff that was alredy fine/solved decades ago...always a lesson and a half... thanks for sharing!
Great video series. I’m a Diesel mechanic and have enjoyed developing my auto electrical skills over my career. Have learned can and reading diagrams but have never had the chance to to us a scope Heavy earthmoving equipment is going high tech as well
I work in a Volkswagen dealership. The factory requires a basic inline grease monkey service-tech to undergo detailed training from the dealer in specific areas such as basic electrical circuit tests, CAN-network troubleshooting, Maintenance-work ETC-... Still somehow even some of the senior techs seem to lost it nowadays. There's only couple of really "full in" techs per shop which is is sad because you would assume top tier work from a dealer with their prices right? My guess is it's the flat rate givin' it to you & some people are not willing to see the effort and bigger picture under pressure. By any means i don't intend to defend people who cut corners on customers expense. We laugh at the parts-cannon gunners here too :D All the best to you from Finland. Really learned a lot from your videos. Keep up the good work!
You were NOT harsh with the dealer, omg! They tried to get the owner to spend $20K! I thought you were direct, honest, and even restrained given how you found the issue and they didn't.
My thoughts exactly. I'm curious how they diagnosised the open circuit, and came to the 20k conclusion. It seems like they would have at least loaded a ecm in the parts cannon first
I disagree. Ivan does not need to grandstand in front of lesser techs, any more than Lebron James needs to grandstand in front of NBA benchwarmers. The difference between them is obvious. It is also not Ivan's job to see to it that a dealership's service department is up to speed on diagnostic best practices. Is there not a service manager? And, there's no point in getting emotional about fixing a car, since Ivan is getting paid to do this, and is otherwise disinterested.
@@brandonsnider7907 if the dealer had said we are not sure, that is one thing. To wrongfully suggest a $20k repair, is to cast all notions of professional discourse aside. It would be like a foundation company quoting 180k to fix a 200k house, then find out it only needs 20k in work from another professional. The original contractor needs some compelling info to back up his claims or he needs his ass ate out, (not in the sexual way). In your defense, Ivan could have really been the bigger man and said, "using the oscilloscope I was able to confirm... here is a link to my video... I would be willing to train your techs... for $20k.
@@_RiseAgainst I'm quite unaware that Ivan is now in the business of training dealer techs. The dealership is already well aware that they failed, since one of their own brand was dragged off the lot on a towtruck. That's humiliation enough.
I agree with your sentiment in the replies to the dealer. It's not like you are talking down to them as a bully or anything; You are standing in defense of the customer, who could have blindly walked into a $20k wiring harness job, and still had a dead car on the other side. So I'm honestly glad to see someone put them in their place and give them a wake up call for their necessity to get their sh^t together-- and in the end, if they watch the videos, it will help them greatly on the next customer- especially if they also watch Mario's videos on this (which I also did -- I looked up his two recent videos on this similar issue). Another great series- keep them coming. Cheers.
I am not a mechanic, although I "know enough to be dangerous." In my experience as a customer, I'm guessing that the $20k quote was not actually for the replacement of the wiring harness... It was a "cover-our-a**" quote by the dealership because they really didn't know for sure what the problem was, so they probably knew there was a high likelihood of a customer comeback. Either that, or because of the level of uncertainty of the true problem, they gave a ridiculous quote essentially telling the customer they really didn't want to work on it (without actually saying "we don't want to work on your car.") Because of similar experiences that I've had at dealership shops, I refuse to take my cars there for repairs... Honest independent shops are the way to go. My opinion is that the #1 priority for most, if not all, dealership shops is profit, not doing what's "right" for the customer. I'm very thankful for PHAD and other channels (like Eric O. at South Main Auto) to help me gain valuable knowledge in helping me determine when I'm getting "screwed" or not, and what a "proper" diagnosis process should look like.
I was a Chrysler tech for over 15 years. Went through every factory training class they offered and I needed to learn an oscilloscope on my own and still to this day don’t find many people who even know what one is or how to use it. Factory training never even informed me how or what an oscilloscope was. To be honest I learned what one was from scanner danner and never looked back
As a GM tech the Pico scope is an essential tool training is available on its use. I mainly used it for vibration diag. But it is there for the use for module diag also.
Great ending, Ivan (my inner child just hoped you went to a track to test it - never got my hands on anything with more than 190HP, but real life is not like that). Too bad you didn't get to look at the other faults (they all sound very interesting), but that's not what customer asked of you. In the end, sincere congratulations for the results achieved and your daring to take a couple of high risk decisions - really impressive!
Great repair. I purchased a brand-new 99 MB E-Class, and while I loved the car, it will be my last. So many issues which were all covered by warranty but left me without a vehicle far too many times.
That car is a super fast wallet eater! 😆 I wish him luck with it. 👍 As far as dealerships competency it's my experience that it can vary from shop to shop. A while back a friend worked for a Nissan dealership repair shop. He was very skilled at diag (left to work as a design tech at a popular aftermarket chip company),but his shop was THE SHOP that got the stuff other shops couldn't solve. I don't know if Mercedes has such "cracker jack" shops because the way their vehicles are engineered screams planned obsolescence or drive on nice weekends only!
The dealership I work at we are provided a 4 channel scope that plugs into our factory scan tool to answer your question. The theory is that they do provide some basic training on it but as you well know some techs understand it and most do not. The factory scope takes a few minutes to set up and I don't even recall the last time I pulled it out as I have a tablet 2 channel that is on in 3 seconds for basic cam/crank stuff or voltage drops on circuits and a 4 channel in my Snap on Scanner. Cool thing about the factory scope, when we need it, is that it has outputs and can emulate a sensor etc.. and it scales automatically if you just select the item you are trying to scope such as a coil or injector and so on.
Vehicle complexity and Dealer service departments are scary!! Dealer service is most all regards are not up to the needs of today's modern, very complex vehicles. Not by a long shot. I'm pretty sure the idea was to give a huge bill, hoping the customer would give up and trade the vehicle in for a few thousand dollars (not running) to buy a new Mercedes. Sad but true. The dealer would then send that AMG to auction and get about $10-20K for it even not running. It's absolutely sickening. Thank God for you Ivan and helping people truthfully and honestly! You are a good man! PS... I took your advise and bought that portable air inflator you tested on your wife's car. Thanks again!
Hi Ivan. Hope you had a happy Thanksgiving. I'm retired 2 years after being a dealership tech for 40+ years. Both g.m. and Chrysler, Plymouth, jeep dealers. Anyway , no dealership I worked in even had a scope. I never did see any training for a scope offered by any manufacturer. Some of the tool manufacturers may have had some training if you bought their tool. I didn't even know what a scope was until about 5 years before I retired but at that point didn't care.
Ivan just watched the AMG ME/BE video from start to finish.i can assure you with extensive training from BMW a scope was not part of the diagnostic tools offered, unless things have changed from 2019 to now.Vehicke diagnostics we're involved with programing , vehicle electrical schematics were part of the diagnostic tool except up to the 2000 then after it was slowly I trounced into the diagnostic tools. But scope training or use up to 2019 no, some technicians would purchase scopes from snap on to mostly diagnose can line functions .My go to tool was the Fluke 88 for electrical diagnostics
when i retired early i was working for an equipment dealer. many of the machines had multiple networks and all had at least one. theory of operation and basic meter tests were all that was taught. the dealership was threatened to loose the contract unless they bought a laptop and python interface. i had my own scope from doing tv repair on the side. but i'd be damned if they were going to get any benefit of that. luckily there was very few problems. biggest problem was we'd go to school and aside from an occasional warranty job it would be 4-5 years before we seen problems. by then you'd forgot most of it. we never had the chance to "play" with what we learned to reinforce it because we'd be slammed when we got back from school.
I couldn't believe MB mounted that computer in the fender like that. Not only is that a bad spot for corrosion, but a fender bender could punch it there too. Why not have it live where literally every other manufacturer puts that stuff ? Ridiculous.
Thank you, excellent series. You were very brave to tackle such a complicated vehicle, especially as the dealership had essentially given up, and had a potential expensive faulty diagnosis. You have taught me never to buy an expensive AMG merc, and I also would steer clear of out of warranty Beemers and Audis. I have an EV, one of the first of this model in the UK,it had a fault, and took the dealers 8 visits to fix, and even then, it was me that finally fixed it but they did tell me what to do. Dealers do not always know how to diagnose.
I agree, customer satisfaction should be the priority for any dealer. If the customer is not happy, it will not come back and it will give bad feedback to other, which mean, other customer will not go to that dealer and the dealer will lose customers. I appreciate the way you approach any problem when you try to diagnose the issue with a car and I do learn a lot by watching your videos.
I watched this series after dealing with ~1 month of dealing with an electrical issue on my Crown Victoria (culprit appears to have been a faulty PCM in my case too) and realize that despite the frustration I had with getting it diagnosed and repaired, at least it will never be as expensive as the bill for fixing a European car.
Really appreciate you taking the time to video this series. I could hardly wait for you to release each part. Your methodical troubleshooting skills are tremendous. I could feel your hesitance in programming the ECM but knew you trusted your instincts, as you should. Happy belated Thanksgiving!
I am truly impressed with your diagnostic ability! Even though I do not repair cars the videos are highly entertaining and impressive. While watching I find myself anxious for you to find the fault! Excellent!
Best time spent on RUclipsr very educational and informative I work on marine engine and knowledge here is more than what I was trained for! Thank you 🙏🏻
I'd really like to see the oscope after the ECM was replaced. Is that ringing and bias shift normal, or was it a sign of a bad module? Inquiring minds want to know. Especially given that ringing had peaks were higher than the actual data. It might be normal, but the ringing has to be low enough at the "mid data bit" point to not confuse 1s and 0s. (Typically computers use the leading edge to know when a packet starts and then samples the voltage at the mid-point of each data bit to determine it's value. That allows for a lot of sloppiness on the transition to get ignored. But it does mean that all the modules agree upon the baud rate (sampling rate), but that's usually not a problem.)
For in depth analysis of communication ringing a PICO scope with a 1:1 probe at 20MHz bandwidth (BW) is probably not up to the task. For one or two high fidelity measurements I use my fully isolated two channel 200MHz BW Fluke 199C ScopeMeter (battery operated) with the 10:1 probes, mainly used in the shop and not on the road. For road testing the PICO 4425A makes more sense from an instrumentation, data acquisition standpoint, but is limited to only 20MHz BW, which is not usually a problem when applied to automotive diagnostics. In making high fidelity measurements ground lead inductance is a major concern. When making high fidelity measurements understanding proper oscilloscope probing is as important as understanding the capabilities and operation of your scope. The 199C ScopeMeter also makes a decent 2 channel bench oscilloscope with the added benefit of fully isolated channels when troubleshooting electronic modules.
One if your best videos. My stomach was turning while you were doing that programming. You took a big risk but it paid off. Your a braver man than I but taking the risk is part of the learning process I guess. Keep the vids coming.
Will Ivan read this? This is my biggest question, what happened to the ringing? Did it smooth out??? I’ll bet 95% of techs at dealerships know nothing about waveforms on these busses, why it sat there for 3 months.
@@jadesluv Yeah was just really curious because of what can cause ringing. I also noticed a small ramp at the start of the waveform in that video which seemed out of place. Both can be due to capacitance or inductance in a circuit which made me think of possibly a another smaller issue with grounding on the bus or a can module messing with it.
I sure wish you were making a trip to the gulf coast. My 2016 Sierra is doing some funky stuff and I just KNOW the dealer will load the parts cannon. They might use a blunderbuss. Radio touch screen works sometimes and had a mind of its own. The radio push buttons sometimes don't work. The folding mirrors do not fold. Defogger on the back glass doesn't work. The door dinger will ding super loud 1 or two times then go normal and then get loud. The trans temp sensor has irratic readings. Implausible trans codes. The engine temp gauge stopped working but started again after codes cleared. The service stabilitrack message showed briefly. The transmission shifts extremely hard until the temp is at operating temperature. Codes B101D:31 ECU hardware internal checksum error B127E:00 front video display output signal B1325:03 control module power circuit low voltage U0402:00 invalid data received from transmission control module B1065:04 Audio output 5 circuit open P0711:00 Transmission fluid temperature sensor performance When the low voltage code happened is when the temp gauge stopped working but the battery was fully charged. Checked with a topdon checker.
Back in the day we had a fellow we'd go to when we got into trouble working on a car. He really took care of us. He'd worked an a dealership for a few years but moved onto his own shop where he specialized and built engines for Midget race cars. Dealers in the area knew him and when they would get into trouble with a vehicle they would send it to him. With the right cultivation of those relationships I suspect Ivan you'll be seeing some or more of the same. This stuff is not going to get any easier and it'll probably take some working together to bring about a better level of customer satisfaction. Just my two cents. Thanks for Sharing!
Great conclusion! Glad that client is happy with it!! Drive in the sunset!! Hehe! I thought launch 5 had that asac capable? I could have seen that feature in your video when you were strolling the menu. I think a video or 2 ago. Not sure. Awesome video! Great job Ivan!!
Fantastic diagnostic Ivan & outcome of making the customer very happy to have his car back & running. Hopefully the dealership's listen to your suggestions 👌👍
Not afraid to take my daughter to soccer anymore. It starts every time and stops only when I push the button!! Thanks again, Ivan.
Great looking ride! Hopefully you can have some fun with it! Happy Holidays
Hah what more can you ask for? Thanks for letting me fix your AMG Uneek 🙂
That's a unique name
You really dodged a bullet of $20k. The dealership would have send your car to PHAD, pay the PHAD price and charged you the dealership price, and still come ahead.
Enjoy your repaired AMG!
If the cops pull you over, just tell them you're performing a volumetric efficiency test.
He's just using the throttle as a scale, to see how heavy his foot is. lol
REV UP YOUR ENGINES lol
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics
Damn, I read that and nearly un-subscribed.
The second reference to Kilmer in this video!
They would need to catch you before you can give an excuse
Hi Ivan.
I was a Volvo Master tech over here in the UK. Pico scope diagnosis was part of my training. Impossible to diagnose a networked vehicle without it. Now working for an independent workshop, and much like yourself, repairing misdiagnosed vehicle from the dealer networks. Not entirely the dealer technicians faults as the mentality in dealer network is all about quick profits and bonuses.
Thanks for the brilliant content and sharing information because it helps us all learn👍
I think its a big thank you all around to 'Super Mario Diagnostics' who's' gone down this rabbit hole for others to follow & learn. 👍
And this is why so many mechanics ,including myself will not work for a dealer or most shops. The dealers get the mechanics that want to change parts and only go by the dealer diag tree, which is not always the fault of the mechanic because they are following there orders. I know in my area, There is not one shop or dealership I will work for out of pride of my work. I will not be forced to mess over customers just because the bosses want more money. Great job Ivan.
Hi Ivan, after being in the dealer system for some time can see exactly where you're coming from. The dealer system requires quick turn over purely for higher profits. The training they receive is strictly for their own branded scan tools using their own guided diagnostics for vehicles under warranty. There is a strict step by step process that techs must follow in order to determine faults (if this is not followed, ""denied"" warranty claims can be astronomical). As vehicles age the training is obviously directed to the next models usually annually and with staff turn over the skill of the older techs is usually no longer there. Ten year old car at dealers no one wants to work on them. PS we have and use PICO 7 in the train of all automotive apprentices in my work place. Great videos demonstrating knowledge is the key to a good outcome. Keep up the great work.
customer satisfaction by parts cannon!😁
I am wondering what these branded scan tools can do. In many OEM service info documents, you can find waveforms. I know that BMW's OEM ISTA+ sometimes asks for a measurement box. I wonder for example if this measurement box includes basic scope functionality, and how much this differs brand to brand.
This is a great geedback!!
The
The simple fact seems to be that from a dealer perspective, there is little profit in any complicated diagnostics. Mechanics get paid to replace parts, not to figure out what is wrong.
Another great video Ivan. My theory on the not shifting to park issue is this. There was a code for a faulty gyro. When I hear gyro, I think gyroscope, which is a motion detection device. Perhaps that gyro is used to verify that the car is not moving. If the computer thinks the car is, or may be moving, it will not allow the driver to select park to prevent damage to the transmission. If the communication with the gyro is intermittent, then so will be the ability to select park. If the engine is off and the key is removed, then the computer knows that the car is stopped and it can then safely select park.
And / or, when navigation is on the gps does work and it knows its moving. I think you are right that both are connected through the gps or gyroscope
Contrary to this theory is that every modern merc will shift into park when opening a door when driving under ~10km/h or so. They don't care about the parking pawl in the transmission :D
When I hear gyro, I think about Greek food. I guess that's why I don't drive a Mercedes.
@@kv2280 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@kv2280 hehehe, 😂
Thumbs up this comment if you're thankful you found PHAD.
This is by far one of my top 3 favourite automotive Channels. This man is absolutely brilliant. Hands down.
Yep!
Please what are the others two automotive channels
@@kiln2100 Sarah-n-tuned and South Main Auto are my 2. 🙂 Also Scotty Kilmer
I have a 2004 e55 amg yes they give problems but every time I get on the throttle it gives me joy
In 1962, my dad attended DeVry institute in Chicago. He built an Oscilloscope from a kit, complete with vacuum tubes. It looked like a portable television. I never dreamed we would use those to diagnose issues with cars. If I were him, I would have you complete the rest of repairs.
All new car dealerships have the sign out front that explains their goals "Sales and Service" service is last. Just ask any dealership staff if they could provide all the required maintenance on every vehicle that they sell for the vehicles warranty period. The level of service and dedication that you provide to your customers doesn't compare to any flat rate line tech at any dealership. I started wrenching at 14 and I am 67 now. Hoping to go till I am 70 and then retire. Continued success on your career and all your endeavors.
I worked in dealer service as a tech , no one used a scope . I think I was the only one who did at that time. And as far as training , I had all the GM service training and teachers running those classes never used scopes or recommended them. I remember a teacher yelled at me during a class when I was attempting to backprobe a connector for testing. The last shop I worked for had a Pico but it was just for vibration analysis , they didn't have any probes or Amp clamps or test leads. I had an old snap on vantage scope that I used for many years finally upgraded to the Pico. I don't currently work for the dealer anymore but when I left a few years ago GM was starting to recommend scope usage . Thanks Ivan , look forward to all your videos. And enjoy watching your technique as you challenge yourself with these oddball problems you encounter
Thank you for the Insider info Bruce! No wonder why the dealer service depts are so behind the times in diagnostics... They just read TSBs haha
If technicians are ignorant the parts cannon has a larger magazine.
As an electrical engineer I rarely use a standard Volt meter as it is! Sure it takes a little bit more time to set it up, but a waveform is better than looking at numbers.
That’s what I heard…you dealer techs only use it for NVH !!
I am a Ford and Lincoln certified technician and our factory training does include electrical, electronic, communications and oscilloscope training. I can't fathom how any company wouldn't in this age. I am personally highly disappointed that a dealership could misdiagnose this. It was complicated but it was 100% not an open circuit.
Forgot to say we even have a factory oscilloscope provided. Also, I hope you had a wonderful thanksgiving and great job Ivan!!
I loved this series, because you're taking it on to a whole new level. GM training generally focuses on voltage drop testing and utilizing the factory tool which has the ability to monitor the networks and isolate the communication issues. The scope is primarily encouraged for In cylinder analysis, relative compression testing, and NVH. Outside of that it's never heavily focused on. They provide a 4 Channel Pico, but often laptops and MDI's are scarce and in limited supply - so owning your own tools is the only way to remain efficient. The dealer focuses heavily on the diagnostic process outlined in SI...their training is heavily focused on theory of operations for their technology and brand. Universal testing techniques and electrical diagnostic's are separate areas of study depending on what you are doing on the floor. Overall, if the technician refuses to learn and grow the training is useless for them.
I eatch the Afs Ivan
Perhaps this hrlps a hit. 🙂
Not sure if it is more impressive than a maserati. I would say you SHOULD be impressed by the fact you took it from a brick to a moving vehicle. That deserves kudos.
Ivan, Bravo on your letter to the dealer. All dealers should require their techs watch at least a case study a week for training purposes.
Ivan you're a professional and a wise man on reaching out to the Mercedes Dealership. You never know, you might need dealer only information on a future repair.
I have a feeling that for the tech at the dealership (Rod), this will be the beginning of a cordial professional relationship with PHAD. He was quite communicative earlier.
Ivan, you do not need to apologize for anything you have said, period!
I went to DeVry for electronics training back in the late 80's and scope training was super important and used in the labs daily. I recall surprise lab 'quizzes' where the instructors would wildly mess up the scope settings and you had a certain amount of time to scope some circuit. They were the classic and beautiful tektronix scopes. This training was much appreciated later when getting a job in the semiconductor industry where you were expected to be able to scope all kinds of things. As the years went on, more and more of the young folks coming in had no clue how to use a scope. Pretty sad. You are certainly old school in breaking out the scope so often and it works in your favor to really see what's going on. Great video per usual!
From my own experience with repair shops, the biggest issue is causing more problems. Often there is a tendency to just fire the parts cannon which is rarely a good idea. My grand daughter's Chevy Sonic presented such a problem. Long story short, there were several issues. The original problem was a bad intake manifold but a previous shop's attempt changed both O2 sensors because that was the trouble code. When he did, he could only get one factory sensor and one aftermarket. The aftermarket one was defective. Now the car had two issues. Somewhere along the line, the connector on the MAP sensor got cracked. Now there were three problems. The shop installed a new intake manifold which took care of the sudden loss of power issue but the check engine light came back quickly. That was when he found the issue with the aftermarket O2 sensor and put in a factory sensor. When I went to pick up the car I looked under the hood (listening for any vacuum leaks) and notice the cracked MAP sensor connector. After a new pigtail was installed the engine ran fine but then another check engine light. It turns out that at some point during all of this, the battery went dead and somehow the programming in a module was corrupted. A tech managed to reprogram it after two attempts. Now the car has been running fine for many weeks. The take-away is that the only thing wrong initially was the leaky intake manifold and there is even a notice to techs about it on the net as well as several videos about it. The plastic intake manifold is a poor design and this stalling issue is a common problem. You must use a factory manifold when replacing it. What should have been a one day repair turned into a two month saga.
I understand completely as I too have a Sonic ltz, they are money pits.
The intake manifold failure on Ecotec engines is very difficult to diagnose albeit not so common. Ecotec engines absolutely need OEM O2 sensors (and probably all other sensors as the engines are very sensitive).
This is such a typical outcome for many cars. That's why a decent diagnostic guy starts out with this type of car, but if he's good, eventually customers learn to bring their cars to him FIRST and save both themselves and the diag guy headaches.
The temptation is strong to go to the guys who offer "free" diagnostics, or diagnostics fees that will be taken out of the price of repair, but the HUGE mental barrier to overcome with customers is that the diagnostic IS the cake and the repair is the FROSTING. In many cases it is FAR more difficult, time consuming, and complex to do the diagnostic than the repair (and ergo far FEWER techs capable to doing the diag right whereas you can swing a dead cat and hit a mechanic capable of doing the repair) so BITING THE BULLET, paying and paying well for the diag is almost ALWAYS the cheapest way to go.
Unfortunately all we can really do as diag pros is to stick to our guns, produce content illustrating our processes and case studies, then hope to red-pill these customers in onesies and twosies.
Hopefully these other shops will get it that they either need to hire/cultivate their OWN diag pros, subcontract to guys like Ivan (and myself), or work out a referral program (to send the customer to us, get a small commission, then when we refer the customer to them for repairs).
I believe there is a common ground between the customer, diag specialists, and "normal" (i.e. repair) shops once more hearts and minds are changed.
Ex dealer tech here! Worked in Volvo, Audi and Mercedes workshops. The training I did was very much brand and model specific and was done when new models/engines etc. came out. I newer did any general electrical classes but maybe it is available.
For junior techs what you didn’t learn in school you learn in your apprenticeship time where knowledge and training is supposed to passed down from the more experienced techs.
In most workshops this works and everybody benefits from it but I have seen some bad examples where junior techs change brake pads and the seniors keep all the diagnostic jobs for themselves, and provide no learning opportunities.
I all depends on workshop management I suppose.
Great job with the E63! I would never dared program that Ecu without online connection to Mercedes STAR but I worked out alright 👍
That AMG has a unique exhaust note when you "gave it the beans." I'll make you a deal, Ivan; I will own my '96 Mercury as long as you own yours. Yes, Scotty Kilmer is right! Great video!
Hi Ivan, I work on industrial equipment and have just returned from a 3 day training course on a new range of access machines. The training was very in depth electrically including looking at the can network, checking the can voltage was as far as we went...
I totally agree that we need to use an oscilloscope along side a multi-meter now as a diagnostic tool to make sure we have as much information to help with the diagnosis of faults on modern equipment.
If a scope wasn't used to check CAN signals, then calling that "in depth" might be a stretch 😅
Ford actually teaches oscilloscope use in their factory training. All dealerships were required to have a 4channel scope. Also, the technical assistance (hotline) sometimes asks for scope patterns. However, you are correct in saying the system is stacked against you on diagnostic. Techs normally loose time on complicated diagnostic, not to mention the flat rate system encourages shortcuts and guessing. I ashamed to admit, some of my fellow techs in the industry resort to "hack" repairs. Some shops browbeat the techs, and just worry about getting the car out and start on the next one with as much billable hours as possible. I wish there was a way to fix the way business is done, but sadly I don't see it happening.
"The flat rate system encourages shortcuts and guessing". 👌
That's half of the problem...the other half is the dealership wont give the tech the authority to invest the time he/she needs to figure out the difficult jobs. That's where Ivan(and other youtubers) has the advantage. They work for themselves and can spend as much time as they want/need to figure things out where a dealership wont. I'll guarantee Ivan didn't get paid the actual amount of time he has invested in some of these jobs...I'm thinking maybe 50%. On a positive note at least he has YT back in my day we didn't have anything except DOS..🤣🤣
AMG = All Money Gone!
Other then that, it is a nice little rocket... but like most luxury brands they're really not worth owning once the warranty is up.
@pinecone8966 Lol! I always wondered was amg stood for! Now I know!
Excellent series, and its kinda crazy that I just bought that launchpad v and just inherited a 2015 E400... Hopefully don't need the launch too often, but have it if needed... Thanks, Ivan...
Ahhh the Oscilloscope. I started lugging a Tektronix Oscope in the mid 1970's into the 90's. Non automotive related service. Thanks for the memories...
Series with the most number of sighs. Quite frustrating diag however you worked your way through the maze to emerge at the correct exit. Well done you
You're brilliant Ivan. As a fellow electrical engineer, I would love to see a video of your journey from an engineering degree to auto mechanic. I myself should have become a mechanic cause I hate working for others. That said, there's no need to explain your emails to the dealership. You weren't harsh enough as far as I'm concerned. You and I both know the dealership was being deceptive and lied to the customer intentionally as they started throwing parts at the car. I hate dealerships so much that I've been repairing my own cars for over 30 years. I have a 28 year old 300ZX that still runs like new. Saw my parents get ripped off by EVERY mechanic when I was a child, and ever since, I've never trusted them. Thanks for your videos.
I worked for a fleet dealership for Chrysler for 9 years and yes thief OEM training does include basic electrical and oscilloscope training the verse oscilloscope I was ever introduced to was the Chrysler DRB3 WHICH TURNED INTO A TWO CHANNEL OSCILLOSCOPE. And this was 1997 I still have my student reference guide book and a couple of other books that were giving to us we had very good training on the DRB3 oscilloscope and it came with all kinds of attachments including a low amp and high amp probe so the answer is definitively yes the manufacturer does offer training on oscilloscopes
You are awesome Ivan I think you handled yourself well dealing with the dealership, you are a Master at your craft, Bravo to you Sir! 😏👍🏾
Beautiful car! Trouble is, over many years of life, I have learned that beauty comes with a price...
I used to work at the MB/USA manufacturer in Alabama, for about 6 months as a diagnostic tech. Even the techs that had been there for 15 to 20 years couldn't keep up with and diagnose some of these systems and CanBus problems. Most electrical issues were bent pins and screws through wires during assembly. When I ran into a fault code many of the other techs stated to me, when I figure it out let them know. Never saw an oscilloscope used. It was always a digital volt meter and jumpers.
I was just 1st to comment on Mario's video about your success on this challenging Mercedes and how his video guided you to code its ecm and stuff.great work and a good experience 👍🏿. Cheers and happy thanks giving enjoy your holidays.
So the dealer didn't charge for the starter or the hours of misdiagnosis (nor the storage) but they were given a functional car and bricked the computer so the argument could be made they should have replaced that $1,500 part. Also, it was fantastic you were able to get the car running again - nice job! I do have to tell you, leaving the rest of the programming undone (with the exception of the lane assist - no cal tool for it) would have driven me crazy! I couldn't handle the trunk, radio and shift selector not working after dumping all that money into the car. Keep up the great work and videos. I have to say I would have given up on this one a long time ago!
Ivan, I was with you every step of the way. I was just as frustrated as you appeared to be, at times. You had good reason to be. Your tenacity is legendary - you DO NOT give up, - Amazing.
"A hundred years ago," :-) my work in the USAF Aircraft Avionics Maintenance, required a lot of "Bench work," which required a lot of O'scope work. Working on the plane's weather RADAR "Receiver/transmitter," for example, you had to deal with a lot of pulse widths, as well as ensuring the pulses are set to the proper amplitudes.
Have to SEE those pulses in order to "set them correctly," Scopes are a necessity. The CAN networks are exactly the same. Loved it. Thanks. I also love your graphing of voltage values.
At the very least, these days, a graphical multimeter is a must. Just so one can see the waveform, not just the averaged voltage value a regular multimeter shows.
A tremendous series as well as a long ride on the 'struggle bus' which you were able to overcome.
Your expertise, knowledge and perseverance continue to impress. Well done my friend...well done.
Very nice and polite letter to the dealer. I know they are encouraged to upsell, but $20,000!? I think I'll go for a ride in my old Kia, and listen to Janis sing about it! 😊
That price was too make it go away
@@MrJoey1570 Or to make the customer consider buying a new AMG
Yeah. You can n buy a decent car for 20 g
I’m a HD Truck mechanic/tec (small shop) I wish we can get something like the thinkpad
I struggle with all the different brands an systems, Allison, Fuller, Bendix, Webco, DEF, chassis models etc ! 😩 the list goes on !!
Awesome job on your part 👍👍
Hi Ivan as a porsche dealer tech I can say the oscilloscope training has only been offered in the last 4 years and with the oe equipment which is not that user-friendly compared to what you use
Great video and work, Ivan. Sometimes too many bells and whistles are a PITA.
Did you recalibrate the air fresheners 😂
You are a king drip feeder my friend. Been waiting all day for this to drop. Happy Thanksgiving. Awesome job.
i think its hard to say which video i like the most i have watched so many of your videos and learn from each and everyone i have never been to any schools for automotive i grew up working in a autosalvage yard and my dad taught me and i built on his knowledge your channel has benefited me more than words can explain. i also watch south main auto have learned what little i know about scopes from great people like you i learn something from each and every video thanks so much for sharing what you know you will never know how many people are helped from these type videos thanks again.
That's awesome! Always happy to share the experience with those who are willing to learn :)
That smile on the test drive was awesome lol
A man of exceptional patience and diagnostic skill!! My hat's off to ya - cheers from Australia!! Mercs are great cars,
(better in the late 70s when I worked on them, they were then the BEST MADE cars on earth), but they've all gone down
the "million features" rabbit hole these days.
BOTH of my cars and my truck are quite ordinary and over or close to 20 years old. It will stay that way
I work in a shop where the owner is connected to multiple dealerships. We are constantly being brought cars from those dealerships where they can’t diagnose the problem and we have to fix it. Those dealerships include ford and GM and I know for a fact that they have a pico scope kit that has never been out of the box. I keep telling them that there is so much more they could learn to diagnose and so many things they could diagnose far more quickly if they’d actually learn to use it. I had one car from one of those dealerships I diagnosed some leaking valves for. I told him two cylinders were losing compression and it was a valve sealing issue. He asked me what the compression readings were and I had to explain to him what a relative compression test was and how I was able to pinpoint which valves were leaking. It just blows me away that some places are given the tools to make their job easier and still don’t use them or have a clue about them. So many people are under the impression that you have to be an electrical engineer to use a scope when it’s nothing more than an extremely fast graphing meter.
AMG = All Money Gone!
Awesome series Ivan!! My confidence in dealer service has deteriorated over the years. My experience says, they select boxes on the '20 point safety check' form based on meeting sales quotas or simply based on 'everyone must need a cabin air filter' (or it's just random). Earn my trust w/ the little things and I'll trust you w/ the big ones.
The dealership doesn't have time with 20 cars in the bay. I knew a guy who needed a conductor plate I told him this is a part that needs to be programmed and it's anti theft part you can't buy it over the counter. The guy took it in and they replaced a few modules but not the plate. The guy never had the issue fixed and was out 4 grand on cost of labor and modules
at the very beginning of the first video I was thinking someone spilled a drink on the center console shifter...definitely a case study in overcomplexifying stuff that was alredy fine/solved decades ago...always a lesson and a half... thanks for sharing!
Mercedes, Audi, BMW..... Great cars under warranty, an absolute financial nightmare when not.
Yep ! That’s for sure!
Only to be leased, never purchased
@@erik_dk842 that’s right
@@robertwhite9898 Scotty Kilmer quote
@@erik_dk842 that’s a 💯% right ! Yes 👍
Wow kept us in suspence all the way.Congratulations you never called it Eurotrash once,we are very proud of you!!! Great job Ivan
More like the Thanksgiving WEEKEND special 😆
Hey that's what leftovers are for 😄
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics great, now I'm hungry! Thanks! LOL
Great video series. I’m a Diesel mechanic and have enjoyed developing my auto electrical skills over my career. Have learned can and reading diagrams but have never had the chance to to us a scope Heavy earthmoving equipment is going high tech as well
I work in a Volkswagen dealership. The factory requires a basic inline grease monkey service-tech to undergo detailed training from the dealer in specific areas such as basic electrical circuit tests, CAN-network troubleshooting, Maintenance-work ETC-... Still somehow even some of the senior techs seem to lost it nowadays. There's only couple of really "full in" techs per shop which is is sad because you would assume top tier work from a dealer with their prices right? My guess is it's the flat rate givin' it to you & some people are not willing to see the effort and bigger picture under pressure. By any means i don't intend to defend people who cut corners on customers expense. We laugh at the parts-cannon gunners here too :D
All the best to you from Finland. Really learned a lot from your videos.
Keep up the good work!
your good , I mean really good !
You were NOT harsh with the dealer, omg! They tried to get the owner to spend $20K! I thought you were direct, honest, and even restrained given how you found the issue and they didn't.
My thoughts exactly. I'm curious how they diagnosised the open circuit, and came to the 20k conclusion. It seems like they would have at least loaded a ecm in the parts cannon first
I disagree. Ivan does not need to grandstand in front of lesser techs, any more than Lebron James needs to grandstand in front of NBA benchwarmers. The difference between them is obvious. It is also not Ivan's job to see to it that a dealership's service department is up to speed on diagnostic best practices. Is there not a service manager? And, there's no point in getting emotional about fixing a car, since Ivan is getting paid to do this, and is otherwise disinterested.
@@brandonsnider7907 if the dealer had said we are not sure, that is one thing. To wrongfully suggest a $20k repair, is to cast all notions of professional discourse aside. It would be like a foundation company quoting 180k to fix a 200k house, then find out it only needs 20k in work from another professional. The original contractor needs some compelling info to back up his claims or he needs his ass ate out, (not in the sexual way). In your defense, Ivan could have really been the bigger man and said, "using the oscilloscope I was able to confirm... here is a link to my video... I would be willing to train your techs... for $20k.
I dont know, it could have been taken as harsh. This one was better.
@@_RiseAgainst I'm quite unaware that Ivan is now in the business of training dealer techs. The dealership is already well aware that they failed, since one of their own brand was dragged off the lot on a towtruck. That's humiliation enough.
I agree with your sentiment in the replies to the dealer. It's not like you are talking down to them as a bully or anything; You are standing in defense of the customer, who could have blindly walked into a $20k wiring harness job, and still had a dead car on the other side. So I'm honestly glad to see someone put them in their place and give them a wake up call for their necessity to get their sh^t together-- and in the end, if they watch the videos, it will help them greatly on the next customer- especially if they also watch Mario's videos on this (which I also did -- I looked up his two recent videos on this similar issue). Another great series- keep them coming. Cheers.
I am not a mechanic, although I "know enough to be dangerous." In my experience as a customer, I'm guessing that the $20k quote was not actually for the replacement of the wiring harness... It was a "cover-our-a**" quote by the dealership because they really didn't know for sure what the problem was, so they probably knew there was a high likelihood of a customer comeback. Either that, or because of the level of uncertainty of the true problem, they gave a ridiculous quote essentially telling the customer they really didn't want to work on it (without actually saying "we don't want to work on your car.") Because of similar experiences that I've had at dealership shops, I refuse to take my cars there for repairs... Honest independent shops are the way to go. My opinion is that the #1 priority for most, if not all, dealership shops is profit, not doing what's "right" for the customer. I'm very thankful for PHAD and other channels (like Eric O. at South Main Auto) to help me gain valuable knowledge in helping me determine when I'm getting "screwed" or not, and what a "proper" diagnosis process should look like.
@@badgerdave22 That's no excuse-- the customer could have just as easily agreed to it/ agreed to something they didn't need at all. It's unacceptable.
Marvelous work. First class info. Thank you very much
I was a Chrysler tech for over 15 years. Went through every factory training class they offered and I needed to learn an oscilloscope on my own and still to this day don’t find many people who even know what one is or how to use it. Factory training never even informed me how or what an oscilloscope was. To be honest I learned what one was from scanner danner and never looked back
good to see you try to fix thing that the customer didn't ask to
As a GM tech the Pico scope is an essential tool training is available on its use. I mainly used it for vibration diag. But it is there for the use for module diag also.
What a novel concept actually closing the deck lid with your hand. lol
This car will rip you a new one... Keep-um coming Ivan.
Great ending, Ivan (my inner child just hoped you went to a track to test it - never got my hands on anything with more than 190HP, but real life is not like that). Too bad you didn't get to look at the other faults (they all sound very interesting), but that's not what customer asked of you.
In the end, sincere congratulations for the results achieved and your daring to take a couple of high risk decisions - really impressive!
Great repair. I purchased a brand-new 99 MB E-Class, and while I loved the car, it will be my last. So many issues which were all covered by warranty but left me without a vehicle far too many times.
That car is a super fast wallet eater! 😆 I wish him luck with it. 👍 As far as dealerships competency it's my experience that it can vary from shop to shop. A while back a friend worked for a Nissan dealership repair shop. He was very skilled at diag (left to work as a design tech at a popular aftermarket chip company),but his shop was THE SHOP that got the stuff other shops couldn't solve. I don't know if Mercedes has such "cracker jack" shops because the way their vehicles are engineered screams planned obsolescence or drive on nice weekends only!
The dealership I work at we are provided a 4 channel scope that plugs into our factory scan tool to answer your question. The theory is that they do provide some basic training on it but as you well know some techs understand it and most do not. The factory scope takes a few minutes to set up and I don't even recall the last time I pulled it out as I have a tablet 2 channel that is on in 3 seconds for basic cam/crank stuff or voltage drops on circuits and a 4 channel in my Snap on Scanner. Cool thing about the factory scope, when we need it, is that it has outputs and can emulate a sensor etc.. and it scales automatically if you just select the item you are trying to scope such as a coil or injector and so on.
What brand car do you work on? Cool that they have a factory scope!
Ohh for the simplicity of my old 300D
Glad you wrote a follow up email to dealer. It was nicely crafted. I also think you were too harsh on them at first
Now if only the HOOKERS in SAN FRANSISCO had that attitude,the police would not have so many calls!!!haha thanks for finishing up this car,Ivan
Vehicle complexity and Dealer service departments are scary!! Dealer service is most all regards are not up to the needs of today's modern, very complex vehicles. Not by a long shot. I'm pretty sure the idea was to give a huge bill, hoping the customer would give up and trade the vehicle in for a few thousand dollars (not running) to buy a new Mercedes. Sad but true. The dealer would then send that AMG to auction and get about $10-20K for it even not running. It's absolutely sickening. Thank God for you Ivan and helping people truthfully and honestly! You are a good man! PS... I took your advise and bought that portable air inflator you tested on your wife's car. Thanks again!
Hi Ivan. Hope you had a happy Thanksgiving. I'm retired 2 years after being a dealership tech for 40+ years. Both g.m. and Chrysler, Plymouth, jeep dealers. Anyway , no dealership I worked in even had a scope. I never did see any training for a scope offered by any manufacturer. Some of the tool manufacturers may have had some training if you bought their tool. I didn't even know what a scope was until about 5 years before I retired but at that point didn't care.
Ivan just watched the AMG ME/BE video from start to finish.i can assure you with extensive training from BMW a scope was not part of the diagnostic tools offered, unless things have changed from 2019 to now.Vehicke diagnostics we're involved with programing , vehicle electrical schematics were part of the diagnostic tool except up to the 2000 then after it was slowly I trounced into the diagnostic tools. But scope training or use up to 2019 no, some technicians would purchase scopes from snap on to mostly diagnose can line functions .My go to tool was the Fluke 88 for electrical diagnostics
Nice repair video, very nice eMail and happy customer, i am sure you will see him again.
when i retired early i was working for an equipment dealer. many of the machines had multiple networks and all had at least one. theory of operation and basic meter tests were all that was taught. the dealership was threatened to loose the contract unless they bought a laptop and python interface. i had my own scope from doing tv repair on the side. but i'd be damned if they were going to get any benefit of that. luckily there was very few problems. biggest problem was we'd go to school and aside from an occasional warranty job it would be 4-5 years before we seen problems. by then you'd forgot most of it. we never had the chance to "play" with what we learned to reinforce it because we'd be slammed when we got back from school.
I can see why you wanted that amg off the property,I was waiting for the computer to go up in smoke great job
I couldn't believe MB mounted that computer in the fender like that. Not only is that a bad spot for corrosion, but a fender bender could punch it there too. Why not have it live where literally every other manufacturer puts that stuff ? Ridiculous.
Thank you, excellent series. You were very brave to tackle such a complicated vehicle, especially as the dealership had essentially given up, and had a potential expensive faulty diagnosis. You have taught me never to buy an expensive AMG merc, and I also would steer clear of out of warranty Beemers and Audis.
I have an EV, one of the first of this model in the UK,it had a fault, and took the dealers 8 visits to fix, and even then, it was me that finally fixed it but they did tell me what to do. Dealers do not always know how to diagnose.
I agree, customer satisfaction should be the priority for any dealer. If the customer is not happy, it will not come back and it will give bad feedback to other, which mean, other customer will not go to that dealer and the dealer will lose customers. I appreciate the way you approach any problem when you try to diagnose the issue with a car and I do learn a lot by watching your videos.
Very good moment when i look at your videos, i learn a lot ! Thank you and keep it up👍
Michel from France near Bordeaux
I watched this series after dealing with ~1 month of dealing with an electrical issue on my Crown Victoria (culprit appears to have been a faulty PCM in my case too) and realize that despite the frustration I had with getting it diagnosed and repaired, at least it will never be as expensive as the bill for fixing a European car.
Love your honesty and hard work you put in Ivan, grand job on this beaut!!
Really appreciate you taking the time to video this series. I could hardly wait for you to release each part. Your methodical troubleshooting skills are tremendous. I could feel your hesitance in programming the ECM but knew you trusted your instincts, as you should. Happy belated Thanksgiving!
I am truly impressed with your diagnostic ability! Even though I do not repair cars the videos are highly entertaining and impressive. While watching I find myself anxious for you to find the fault! Excellent!
Best time spent on RUclipsr very educational and informative I work on marine engine and knowledge here is more than what I was trained for! Thank you 🙏🏻
That means a lot to me, thank you for the kind words! 🙂
Nice cars but not one I would ever want to own. Excellent diagnostics though. Thanks for sharing your skills with us. Cheers
I'd really like to see the oscope after the ECM was replaced. Is that ringing and bias shift normal, or was it a sign of a bad module? Inquiring minds want to know. Especially given that ringing had peaks were higher than the actual data. It might be normal, but the ringing has to be low enough at the "mid data bit" point to not confuse 1s and 0s. (Typically computers use the leading edge to know when a packet starts and then samples the voltage at the mid-point of each data bit to determine it's value. That allows for a lot of sloppiness on the transition to get ignored. But it does mean that all the modules agree upon the baud rate (sampling rate), but that's usually not a problem.)
For in depth analysis of communication ringing a PICO scope with a 1:1 probe at 20MHz bandwidth (BW) is probably not up to the task. For one or two high fidelity measurements I use my fully isolated two channel 200MHz BW Fluke 199C ScopeMeter (battery operated) with the 10:1 probes, mainly used in the shop and not on the road. For road testing the PICO 4425A makes more sense from an instrumentation, data acquisition standpoint, but is limited to only 20MHz BW, which is not usually a problem when applied to automotive diagnostics. In making high fidelity measurements ground lead inductance is a major concern.
When making high fidelity measurements understanding proper oscilloscope probing is as important as understanding the capabilities and operation of your scope.
The 199C ScopeMeter also makes a decent 2 channel bench oscilloscope with the added benefit of fully isolated channels when troubleshooting electronic modules.
Hmmmm that was wonderful,if it was me gonna trash it. Excellent Im proud of yu Sir. Some love from Africa ❤❤❤❤
One if your best videos. My stomach was turning while you were doing that programming. You took a big risk but it paid off. Your a braver man than I but taking the risk is part of the learning process I guess. Keep the vids coming.
Good Job!! I enjoyed all 5 parts!
good job Ivan , you persevered and got the job done give yourself a big pat on ya back man, great videos
Did you check if the ringing went away after ECU was replaced ? Just curious. Congrats on reviving it.
Will Ivan read this? This is my biggest question, what happened to the ringing? Did it smooth out??? I’ll bet 95% of techs at dealerships know nothing about waveforms on these busses, why it sat there for 3 months.
@@jadesluv Yeah was just really curious because of what can cause ringing.
I also noticed a small ramp at the start of the waveform in that video which seemed out of place. Both can be due to capacitance or inductance in a circuit which made me think of possibly a another smaller issue with grounding on the bus or a can module messing with it.
Loved the series!
Two thumbs up Ivan!
Well done Ivan, as usual🎉our perseverance is admirable as is your love of learning.😊
I sure wish you were making a trip to the gulf coast. My 2016 Sierra is doing some funky stuff and I just KNOW the dealer will load the parts cannon. They might use a blunderbuss. Radio touch screen works sometimes and had a mind of its own. The radio push buttons sometimes don't work. The folding mirrors do not fold. Defogger on the back glass doesn't work. The door dinger will ding super loud 1 or two times then go normal and then get loud. The trans temp sensor has irratic readings. Implausible trans codes. The engine temp gauge stopped working but started again after codes cleared. The service stabilitrack message showed briefly. The transmission shifts extremely hard until the temp is at operating temperature.
Codes
B101D:31 ECU hardware internal checksum error
B127E:00 front video display output signal
B1325:03 control module power circuit low voltage
U0402:00 invalid data received from transmission control module
B1065:04 Audio output 5 circuit open
P0711:00 Transmission fluid temperature sensor performance
When the low voltage code happened is when the temp gauge stopped working but the battery was fully charged. Checked with a topdon checker.
Check the voltage drop across the negative battery terminal 👍
Back in the day we had a fellow we'd go to when we got into trouble working on a car. He really took care of us. He'd worked an a dealership for a few years but moved onto his own shop where he specialized and built engines for Midget race cars. Dealers in the area knew him and when they would get into trouble with a vehicle they would send it to him. With the right cultivation of those relationships I suspect Ivan you'll be seeing some or more of the same. This stuff is not going to get any easier and it'll probably take some working together to bring about a better level of customer satisfaction. Just my two cents. Thanks for Sharing!
Great conclusion! Glad that client is happy with it!! Drive in the sunset!! Hehe! I thought launch 5 had that asac capable? I could have seen that feature in your video when you were strolling the menu. I think a video or 2 ago. Not sure. Awesome video! Great job Ivan!!
Fantastic diagnostic Ivan & outcome of making the customer very happy to have his car back & running. Hopefully the dealership's listen to your suggestions 👌👍