I just went thru this process. Your video was right on with a few exceptions. First I had to put a deposit down (10%) after my offer was accepted. The survey was then done. The negotiations were perhaps the most interesting part of the process. At the very first I offered approximately 10% off the asking (62k) they came back at (68k). This was not surprising as they had reduced their list by 10% a week before. I accepted the 68 and started the survey. Survey found water heater was leaking, main sail needed replacement (was disclosed previously) and a few other items. I then asked for a 3k discount, thinking they would come back at splitting it. They came back offering only 500 off (price of a new water heater, uninstalled). I asked the broker to go back and ask them to split it at $1500 off. It was no dice, they said take or leave it. The interesting part is why would they risk losing a buyer. The answer was simple. I was playing a hand of Texas Holdem with my cards face up. I had invested approximately $2k in engine inspection, rigging inspection and survey. The broker knew I had arranged for a slip for the boat. When the boat was hauled out I had them put new zinks on it. So what did I do? I told the broker I was not going to buy the boat. The broker couldn’t believe it, but sent me the paperwork to refuse purchase which I signed. The next day the broker suggested I submit a new offer with the compromise discount 66.5k. I said I didn’t want to do that as I didn’t want them coming back with something else. I was also leaving for a two week trip which would make me unavailable. The broker said they would make the offer verbal before writing it up to see if they would go for it. They of course did. The thing to remember is you have no one on your side, contain your enthusiasm, keep your poker face.
SO, in the end you got the boat for 66.5,k plus you was out 2k for inspection and what not, so, you actually paid 68.5k, when you could have just paid the 68k cash and saved yourself 500 bucks? was that the moral of your story, or was it how you had game? lol.. just wondering and not really bashing you. and i must say you did have good game walking on it..
Great info... Also you need to let buyers know that part of the survey is the haul-out and the buyer is responsible for that cost as well. When I was a broker I always tried to set up the sea-trial, haul-out, and survey on the same day. If the buyer walks away from the deal, the seller has the option to leave the boat on the hard and paint the bottom or do any repairs he wants as long as the yard has room. Great videos my friend..
I would like to suggest a couple of additional important points. First, where are you going to keep the boat after you buy it. You need to at least check into this. Many busy marinas will not transfer a slip when a boat is sold. So if you are in an area where slip space is tight, make sure you have a spot lined up. You may find that you have a very limited time to get the boat out of the marina it is in and that you are paying daily slip fees until you move the boat. You will also want to factor in the cost of moving the boat to its new location. If you buy a boat say in North Carolina and you are in Maine, it will cost you thousands of dollars to move the boat to its new home. That cost will also include a big chunk of your time if you move the boat yourself. Make sure you set your insurance up before you close on the boat because the seller's coverage ends when the deal closes and you need your coverage to start as soon as possible, ideally immediately. Despite what Lady K sailing says, it can be a challenge to find insurance for a cheaper, older boat. Here in the USA there are quite a few insurers that won't even talk to you about a boat older than 30 years, except possibly for liability only coverage. It is generally easier to insure a more expensive boat.
Good points. I had intended to keep my boat in Marina del Rey, 25 minute drive from my house. The day before I set sail down the coast, the guy in charged screwed me on a promised slip. But then I realized, if instead I got a slot in Oxnard, I'd be 70 minutes from my home - driving, but the Channel Islands would now be less than 3 hours away. And it was half the cost. (Of course the guy who I bought the boat from told me all this, but I was fixated. So I really shouldn't say the 'guy screwed me.' He saves me $800/month.) I was sailing south and called the marina in Oxnard making all the arrangements before I arrived. Good move, but I was just reacting and not acting. This is typical for a lot of new boat owner decisions. Turned out great, but this is where having an experienced 'boat friend,' would really help. Which makes making a fair deal with the previous owner really important. I've been on the phone with him several times asking questions, and he's reached out to me on a couple of things he thought of. And he's got a boat to sail anytime he wants, always welcome. Insurance. I got insurance, paying a bit of a premium ($2300/year for a 45' boat $170k, and I'm a noob sailor) I still haven't gotten answers on critical questions. Because of age (boat's 20 years old, but in great shape) the engine, sails, rigging, dingy, generator, electronics (probably a few other things) are not covered. Okay, so what happens if the boat sinks and everything is lost? I still haven't gotten an answer on that. (If my $170k boat sinks will the max payout be $100k because of all the not covered items? Also my insurance only covers from the Oregon border down to a few miles south of Ensenda in Baja and 100 miles off the coast (which includes all the Channel Islands.) Insurance asked a lot of questions about lithium. This seems to be the current fear of insurance. (I don't have any, and after informing my insurance company wouldn't hesitate to get it, but I think I'd keep the DIY aspects to a minimum. I'm not afraid of lithium, I sit on 74 kWh of it in my Tesla.) I also discovered (when U-Haul refused to refill them) that my propane tanks are 8 years expired. Even though they're expensive aluminum ones in terrific condition, federal law says 12 years (5 year extension if you apply for it within those 12 years.) I am definitely going to replace them ASAP. If anything happened to my boat I'm sure no matter what happened the dates on these tanks would be used against me. So $250 for two steel tanks or $650 for two new aluminum ones. You also write about transferring a boat. At first I thought: I'm in Los Angeles, Southern California is a big market. But one day I realized that if I bought a boat farther away my first big sail would be to Southern California. Almost immediately my boat came on the market, up the coast near Monterey. Insurance required me to hire a captain for the transfer south; I got in four days of sailing. Cost me about $1750. (The last day I was on my own because 'Captain Ron' quit.) If I had to wait a couple of months for clear weather? Wouldn't have been a big deal. (I did 3 750 mile round trips and then took the train up - audio books.)
@@WillN2Go1 there are two types of boat insurance policies. The cheap policies use a depreciating value for payouts. The better policies are called agreed vale policies. In those policies there is a value agreed to by you and the insurance company called the "agreed value" that is paid out in case of a total loss. Most policies also cover dinghy, but unless you had the policy written to cover your specific dinghy and motor, the coverage may be small (say $2,500). Most yacht policies also don't give great coverage for engines. Generally if your engine blows up you are out of luck. However, if your boat partially sinks and the engine is killed due to being submerged it will normally be covered. Read the policy to find out what your policy covers. Incidentally, I view your boat as pretty new since mine is 50 years old and I sold my "old" boat last Spring (86 years old).
To me the process works slightly differently I mean first and foremost I agree with buyer the price I'm willing to pay for his boat. If the buyer accepts than I move to see the boat. Anything I find I deduct from the agreed initial price... If the buyer is not interested I don't even move to see his boat
@@KoDeMondo to me making an offer without seeing a boat is just crazy. Personally, I will spend a day, at least, looking the boat over in detail before I make an offer. That is after the first 2-3 hour cursory inspection. The offer should always be contingent on survey.
Love the "armchair sailor" comment, Tim. It's so true that there are tons of on-line critics that say you should only buy some high end, semi-custom, bullet proof, 7 figure machine. Virtually none of these "experts" own one of these boats, and in fact, most don't own a boat at all. They just site at home and watch RUclips videos to acquire their "knowledge." Their credibility in my mind is zero and I pay no attention to them. As for self-inspecting pre-offer and pre-survey, I'm always used your "walk the decks" technique to get an early idea of the boat's structural condition. I actually baby-step the entire deck over every square foot feeling for de-lamination. If there is any, that's usually an immediate deal breaker. Unfortunately for C & C, back in the day I'd discovered this too many times on their mid-70's to mid-80's models. Finally, the survey is huge and necessary. Yes, it's expensive and it may be tempting to skip it if you are not financing the boat, but it is your best negotiating leverage when finalizing your purchase price with the seller. You'll almost always get your $1200 in survey cost back due to price adjustments you are able to secure as a result of things the surveyor finds, especially because he has that magic tool, a moisture meter.
I called Tim a few weeks back to get his opinion on a sailboat. I mentioned how I easily had spent thousands boat hunting the past 16 months and could write a book on "How Not to Buy a Sailboat". Note: It's even harder when you live in Iowa and are buying a boat for the Keys. This is a great video and would have saved me thousands as a first time sailboat buyer! This is far and away my favorite RUclips Channel.
Good video overall. One thing to note is that a surveyor should never share the survey results with the seller or selling broker. It is yours and yours alone as the potential buyer. Also, most brokers are going to want a purchase agreement (and deposit) prior to survey and test sail.
Yes the survey is the property of the buyer since he paid for it. If the deal does not go through then the buyer has the option to sell the survey to the seller. Typically an accepted offer along with a 10% deposit of earnest money held in the brokerage's trust account will be a necessity before a sea-trial . After the sea-trial, the buyer has the option to walk away or proceed to haul-out and survey.
Hi here in Europe we handle things differently. We make our offer based on looking at the boats state and the condition the selller promises. If the offer is accepted we sign a contract with the note, that any bigger issues found during the survey are subject to price reductions based on repair/replacement costs. If you are clever the seller has to pay survey and haul out in case he walks away from the deal later. cheers
I'd like to add that you should testsail the boat, with or without the owner. Get an hour or two on the water to see how she behaves under sail and under engine.
Great videos Tim. I wish that I had seen them prior to my two journeys in purchasing boats. One thing that you didn’t mention though ( and which I found out my self) is that your surveyor typically doesn’t give you an evaluation on the engine. I had to purchase this service separately from a Diesel engine expert. This is important as it is an extra expense for the potential purchasers d you list the engine as one of the three key systems that could be a deal breaker Keep the great videos coming. It’s great to have someone reviewing the older lower price point boats that an average purchaser can afford vice the 1m 2023 Krakens, Benes and Rustlers 10:14
I spent the last few days watching your Lady K Sailing - not the boat videos as we have our perfect boat. I noticed in one of the videos that you were concerned about the swage fitting discolouration and that you went as far as talking to Herb and Maddie from Rigging Dr. On our last trip north from the Bahamas to Owen Sound, we had a break in one wire of the genny forestay as well as breaks to the stays'l stay. We looked into dyneema using primarily Rigging Dr., James from Zingaro and very importantly John Franta from Colligo. We decided to go with the dyneema and are building our new rig over this winter while I am off work. If you would like, feel free to get in touch and we can talk it over. Susan and Rick.
Well done, really... I was lucky enough to own three used boats that I bought by increasingly refining the buying process which I can confirm is very close to what you describe in the video. In the European area where I sail, it is also very important to evaluate the cost of storage from the moment of purchase and the cost of its transfer to the shipowner's usual port of docking. Cost can be important...
Great examples of poor maintenance in this video; thanks for finally addressing insurance issues. Cover outhauling and being on the hard soon. Thanks for this one.
Bulkhead tabbing is becoming a big inspection dealbreaker check box on more recent mass produced monohulls and cats. The adhesives used are often substandard and can degrade over time when comparing to older glass composite tabbing. Look for evidence of keel strikes at lower bulkheads causing separation. And also dig deep to look at chainplates and mounts if possible.
You're great 🙏 ...Thank you 😊 I'm thinking about buying a 35 ft sailboat and live on it in Annapolis. I have a great slip available to me for free and I thought I'd be a great way to live and enjoy life in my semi-retirement. Price is a consideration so I was looking at like 1990s Catalina 34s. But I'll be watching your channel and getting lots of advice from you. I'll look into donating to your channel once a month...Thank you for sharing all this great information 😊 Morgan
Great points especially about forgetting to take the pictures lol how many times we go back home sitting at night thinking about it and wish we had a photo to look at.
So... This is, of course, helpful. I'd like to tell you: I've just lately been looking at a boat, a rather larger, more expensive Beneteau. Being sold in the U.S. I'm told, by the broker, that that process would be to make an offer pending survey, and that the "offer" involves a 10% deposit, which the broker holds in escrow, if, and only if, the offer is accepted. Then the surveyor is hired, and in addition to the inspection, there'd be a sea trial... test the engine and transmission... raise the sails... then a short haul out, more inspection, and then returning the boat to the water. All of which would be at the buyer's expense.
a few notes on the 343 you reviewed. The example you noted on Yacht world has pictures that are not of a 343. The Companion way pictures with the Clear Dodger are not of a 343. The example for sale in St Martin for 45K looks a lot like the one I lost in hurricane Irma. We sailed it from new till 2017. The St Martin one is an example of a very well used boat after it endured a hurricane, but it has a new Mast. Ps Yanmar indicates that their engines have a life of 10,000 hours before rebuild with proper oil changes. Enjoyed your Video most informative.
As a broker I am enjoying the videos. But first when negotiating price with a broker they are going to expect a deposit to start negotiating the deal. Usually 10% of the offer. Generally a check and often a copy of the check to show that buyer is serious. I often don't deposit it until an agreed price is reached. But I will absolutely deposit the check before survey, sea trial haul out. The reason being a surveyors only recourse is to put a lien on the boat as is well as any boat yard involved. My job as a broker is to protect the owner. I often work as a buyers broker as well and the same still applies but my clients interest is still at the top of my list. I would encourage people to find a good local to semi local broker to represent their interest. Especially if pursuing a higher end non local boat. Insurance is still a bit of a bugaboo but having helped clients recently I know it can be done. Love your trinity thing. I would like to say that not long ago I commonly told people that ten percent less than ask was a gimme most of the time but market has changed. But unless you get good insight to the particular situation 20% less than ask will be treated as insulting. Keep up the good work I might not agree with everything but you are fairly on target
@@southernpaths2986 Yes I do. A regular surveyor is looking a primarily structural components. The do have pretty solid knowledge of what an engine supposed to run like but occasionally a separate engine survey is a good idea. Depends on engine size to some extent as well. Small one, two or three bangers are usually pretty simple and they perform or they don't. Bigger turbo diesel start a different path. As for rigging surveyors almost never go aloft and are limited in scope of assessment as well as just not as versed in rigging details. Insurance companies seem to be hung up on standing rigging over ten years old. I'm in fresh water area and find that kinda stupid. But a Florida boat or previously circumnavigated boat that's where I get it. Also seems like there are power and sail surveyors, while certified in both I'd check into what kind of background or just plain interest a surveyor has.
Why does the seller get a free copy of the survey. Seems to me the seller should have to share the cost if he will be able to benefit from it. Also, if a boat is declined after a survey, and the next interested party wants a survey a week or two later, can he just buy it from the previous interested party? Or do separate shoppers all have to hire their own survey? Great presentation.
When you talk about the cost of the 3 big items, standing rigging, sails and engine, I have some comments/questions 1) standing rigging- I was involved in rigging for 38' Leopard cat where local riggers/shops wanted $10K for material and install labor. Instead the rigging was ordered from S Africa builder for $5K and will be installed for less than $1K. This is compact wire and diamond rigging design, but shopping around saved at least $4K. Owner had considered self install using rigging tension device. 2) Sails- do you have any opinions on sails from far east sail lofts? Their prices seem to be lower than stateside suppliers, but what about quality and accuracy of cut? 3) engine replacement. Seems to me that "marine" versions of small diesels are quite expensive for what they are, even the "red" ones. Have you heard of anyone using a Chinese made marine diesel and their experience? A YT video from 6+ years ago cruiser got a 2 or 3 cyl one for his sailboat for like $2K, installed it himself and it worked fine (see YT "marine diesel from china" or similar wording for land based test of engine)
The very last thing anyone wants on a boat, in a marine environment or while out at sea, is a cheap knock-off. It will simply not hold up. The parts MOC grade will be of inferior quality or will be plated steel. You will save 20-30% on the engine, but will pay dearly later.
@@Dave-SailsAway Perhaps you should ask the DIY sailor youtuber A liquid Life from episode titled TD Power 3M78 ...etc from 8 yrs ago how his engine lasted. I think the savings was more in the 60-70% range but not sure. I was just asking a question if Lady K author had heard of any instances.
If you now decide to to buy a boat how do you transfer the money? What paper work show the proper owner ship of the boat? How do you know if the boat you are intrested in is not stolen? There are so many scammers out there so this would be good to know.
Really good points but not quite complete. There is a lot more negotiating going on when you buy a sailboat, it isn't like buying a car. Here are my steps; 1. Search until you find a good boat using Tim's pre-survey approach.2. Decide how much you can pay and make an offer. This is where some of the negotiating takes place. Make a down payment to show you are serious, the broker will probably demand it. 3. Get a survey. Look over the survey carefully, you may be able to knock off more money if it needs work. At this point the seller may dig in his heels, so be prepared to walk if that happens. When you are finally agreed on price, 4. Go out sailing. At this point try to get as much info from the seller that you can on things he has learned about operating his boat. Believe me when I tell you this will save many hours of experimenting. Lastly, enjoy you boat. After all that you deserve it.
"Outside indicates the inside". I walked up to my boat the first time, the owner was in the dinghy waxing the side. His first words were, "I like to polish." It'd be fair to say, 'yeah right.' But my slip is at his old marina and that's what everyone there says about him. And yep the inside, the engine, just about everything is in great condition. There's a double set of multi-Raycore filters. I doubt the second set has ever been used, and there are spares for everything. (Anyone need a window or hatch for a Hunter? I can probably send it to you. I've got a complete second set.) "Take pictures" You should take pictures, but you should have a friend with you holding a GoPro. Get HD video, maybe of the whole walk through with the current owner, but definitely of the survey. This is your operator manual, I didn't do this because my memory is so good....and I'm still poking around looking for the fore mascerator, and I've spent time looking for things that were never there. Had I a video, I could've just scrolled through and these answers would be there. I think in future I would approach the surveyor a bit differently. Nick O'Kelly says he always says, "Make me want to not buy this boat." I think I'd say, I want a list of all the things that are going to need fixing, replacing, upgrading and about when. My rigging is 20 years old in great shape, but standing rigging has a general life expectancy of about 10-12 years. I knew that, but it should be mentioned in the survey. The only recommendation on my survey is to update the EPIRB. I think when we hire people their first motivation is to fulfill our expectations. I really want to know what's going on, to understand. I had a highly rated surveyor, but I definitely didn't get ''an astounding amount of data." (I think it would be great for Tim to add to his consulting service a couple examples of great surveys and not so great (incomplete.) And maybe a checklist to send to the surveyor. Are you going to do all of these things? (I got no market report, I did get a boat value.) How did my surveyor miss that the electronic compass was 180 degrees out? Another sailor scoffed and said, "All your survey has to say is that it was there and it turns on." That would've been helpful to know.
What they say about the leading cause of boat fires being electrical problems? Isn't fiberglass the most flammable and toxic when burning? Is adding hugh voltage battery packs, controllers and cables in water the best idea?
A big advantage of having your own boat broker is that they'll be able to provide you with the comparable boats and you won't have to wait for the surveyor to tell you them. Your boat broker and the seller's boat broker split the brokerage fee, so there's no "apparent" cost to you. However, if you don't use a broker, you can tell the selling broker you want him to kick in some money because you don't have a broker. Usually broker fees are 10% of the selling price, so you can easily ask that the selling broker to eat 1 or 2% of the boat price. He can say no, but you can at least ask...
In Australia are very very expensive to compare Europe prices for production boats, if you want to buy something different in steel or aluminium here in Australia is good place and cheaper than Europe
Reading the comments and from other videos on sailing. There is a lot of misinformation about insurance. I am an insurance agent. Marine insurance is different and most of your “captive” State Farm/Allstate agents will not know or have the ability to. But a good independent agent can get you multiple quotes from reputable carriers. Depending on your vessel and what you are using it for.
Well, I'm down to a consult! I have a soup/sandwich situation: a 1977 IOR racer converted to a cruiser in 1996, or, a much newer Jeanneau/Beneteau at a much higher price. My parameters are 'reasonable' but, in the end- I want a long distance cruiser that can remain away from power for long periods. I've found a few boats- none next door, sadly- but, need to narrow down the selections!!!
Will the surveyor climb up the mast to check the mast, the spreaders, and the standing rigging? Will he survey the sails? Will he do a compression test on the engine? Will he check the corrosion of tanks? Is it better to survey the boat in the water or on the hard? I would pay for a survey only if the seller agreed beforehand that any defect or issue found will be deducted from the asking price based on the cost estimates of the surveyor or if the seller doesn't want to sell at that reduced price, then he will come up for the costs of the survey incl. the costs of hauling out & hauling back in.
You spoke of the holy Trinity of repair. Sails, standing rigging and engine. I'm very curious about Dynema. It's lighter, way more cost effective and you can do it yourself. Do you have any information pertaining to Dynema? I know it's stronger than steel, but I'm curious about it's resistance to UV rays. Not to mention when do you know that it goes or is getting close to giving up the ghost, so to speak. There is very little information pertaining to this. I assume it's because of it eats into the money to be made on the riggers and Marina's. And I know not to ask the companies that sell it, they'll tell me that it also gets rid of barnacles and it navigates on its own. Could you please find info on this subject and make a video about this?
I am working on bringing my Mirage 33 based in Montreal to the Bahamas next fall/winter. My broker's insurance companies do not provide this coverage. I am shopping around and having trouble with needing a survey of my boat that is less than two years old (my last survey is 4 years old) and there are some questions about my qualifications to take her south. I've owned keelboats for 18 years and navigated Tadoussac, Lake Champlain and Lake Ontario. It's getting complicated.
Love your videos. I tried to access your Discord link but had no luck. I contributed a one-off support payment to your work. Would be nice if you could give us your thoughts on a Kraken 50 Vs Moody54DS as ocean-crossing yachts, say Capetown South Africa to Sydney Australia :). Keep up the great work! Mike from Strathalbyn SA
Why after I paid for a survey would I be expected to turn it over to the seller at no cost? If he/she can use it in the future? I’m not sure I would be willing to do that without recouping some of my fees. Thanks Tim
The typical purchase process in the UK thru a broker sees you make an offer then sign a subject-to-survey contract and pay a deposit (10% typically). The contracts stipulate timeframes for the process and might give you say two or three weeks to completely the survey otherwise you are deemed to agree to purchase the boat without a survey or loose a chunk/all of your deposit. After eighteen days I’m still waiting for my highly regarded surveyor to visit the boat after making numerous promises. Arghh! Buying a boat is almost as stressful as selling one!
Yes, here in the USA you are not going to go to survey without an accepted offer typically accompanied by a 10% deposit that the broker holds in their escrow account. It is not much of a surprise that the typical broker's commission is also 10%. A survey can be rather pricey. Here in Maine a pre-purchase survey will typically be in the $20-30 per foot range, plus you will have the cost of a haulout. How much a haulout costs depends on location and how busy the yard where you get it done is. Typically the haulout will run you $15 to $20 per foot of the boat's length. Note that sailboat surveys seldom tell you much if anything about the condition of the engine other than what is discovered when the boat is moved to the yard for haulout. If the boat is out of the water when you are buying it, the survey likely won't tell you anything about the engine other than its physical appearance. If the engine is a concern for you then you will have to commission a separate engine survey by a reputable diesel mechanic. If the boat is out f the water when you make your offer, you should include a contingency amount in the offer that depends on the condition of the engine when the boat is launched. You will likely need to hire a mechanic to make that final evaluation.
Looking at boats in the $140-180,000 range, it seems to me that most are over priced by about $20-40,000 for their age and condition. I think next year is going to be a real wake up call to these sellers, once the recession really starts roaring.
@@maddogmaz1576 Our county very quickly raised every ones' property taxes this year because of the artificial price increase, brought about by thousands of homes being bought by investors. I wonder if they'll be as quick to lower them next year seeing as we have already dropped $40,000 and it's going to be worse in 2023? I'm not holding my breath.
I think everyone forgets what a brand new boat costs these days almost any used boat seems like a bargain in comparison. Not to say that there aren't over priced boats out there but Covid sure gave the market trust me.
I would if you are a novice. They will keep you out of a bad boat. Also, a good one will talk with you along the way and will give you great information on the boat, its condition and how things "work". The written survey then becomes your "to do" fix list
It is the same a buying a house. A percent of the sale goes to the brokers. Something like 5%. So if you don't have your own buyers broker the selling broker gets all 5%. If you have your own broker they split it. If you are a buyer not really a good reason not to use a broker as the seller kind of payes for it with the commission split.
I would really like to hear opinions about using a buyer's broker? I am assuming it makes sense especially if you want to have someone do the research and find options for you?
Thanks Jan. I was able to find the Digital Mermaid with a simple RUclips search. I can see your reply with the link in my notifications. I cannot see it on this video. I don't think RUclips likes links in the comments.
How to buy a sailboat? Start with a lot of money then add more money. (;, Having owned a boat and lived aboard for 5 years, I wouldn't have traded it for anything.
Holy trinity. I gotta disagree on this a bit. Engine yes. Other two, not so much. Why? If the sails are bad, but are serviceable, they can still be used. No safety issue. And when funds are available, buy one at a time. Standing rigging. Well, they are supposed to be changed every 10 years (as a safety measure) due to likely unseen corrosion anyway. And, what owner does this every decade? Few. So the standing rigging probably needs to be replaced anyway. To me, the most important thing is the hull and the spars. If the hull (and cabin top) is sound, the boat has good bones. For me, trinity: hull and cabin top, spars, engine. I guess the hull is hard to know condition without it being hauled out, and at that point, it is time for the survey since this will cost money.
Nobody should ever consider "repowering" a sailboat with LiFePo batteries and motors with the current offerings in the "solar power" field at this time unless they want 3 specific things to happen. 1. Your range for motor use will be limited to about an hour or less of usage at full charge. Which means you will be stuck coastal cruising. 2. Have tons of money to burn and wish to virtue signal how green you are to the world. 3. Prove that you lack common sense to run the numbers to find out how impractical this option would be thusly showing the world you are a fool. With the limitations on how many solar panels you can put on a boat, how fast an electric engine motor will drain the batteries, and the mass of the batteries needed to make electric engines propel a boat for any length of time you are just throwing money down the drain. If you install one of these foolish things you will still need to have a generator run by fuel to take your boat anywhere. Without the gen you are just asking for disaster. Dont take the advice of any of these 'RUclips" channels that advise you to do this. They will only make your wallet shrink and might get you killed.
I don't completely disagree with some of your points but we need to remember that boats managed without auxiliary power for hundreds of years. Absolutely true that batteries have less energy density than liquid fuel and those physics aren't going to change...but batteries ARE getting better (and cheaper)...to the point where they CAN replace gas/diesel in some applications. There absolutely ARE use cases where battery/electric is more than adequate for an owner and many examples of where it wouldn't be appropriate, safe, or convenient. There are some "sailors" that never put the sails up and motor even when there's wind but there are others that run the engine only when absolutely necessary. Potential EV sailors would fall into that second catagory. As an EV (car) owner/driver, I don't miss all the oil changes and maintenance and as an engineer I appreciate the efficiency (I'm not a "greenie", it's just math). Those same benefits would translate well to marine use. The biggest cost driver is going to be the size of the battery bank. For some, all they really are going to need is enough power and energy to safely navigate a marina and get out into open water (and back again). We're talking about hundreds of dollars, not thousands (like a new engine). Others may require hours of continuous operation. This is where costs would approach a new engine but for some might still be a viable option and without the maintenance hassle, noise, smell, and vibration of diesel. Solar is the cheapest but not the only way to charge. I believe some of these setups allow for battery charging through propeller rotation. There are hydro-generators on the market that can produce up to 600W. So, if you're under sail - you're charging, if you're on the hook - you're charging (solar), and if you're in a marina you're absolutely charging and topping off that battery bank (for "free" with shore power).
At what point does the seller get a copy of my survey that I paid for @16:23 the broker works for me and not the seller. The broker gets to see the survey but doesn't get a copy of it and the same applies to the seller, they get to see the survey.
@@LadyKSailing Sorry I worded that badly, What I meant is why should the seller get a copy of a survey that the potential buyer paid for. Surely that should be privy between the potential buyer and the broker.
It could be because he is not suggesting you have a buyers broker. If you dont the sellers broker also represents the buyer. That broker would get the survey I suspect and would give it to the seller in that situation maybe? I have always used my own broker vs the sellers as is costs the buyer nothing to use one. They just split the commission vs the sellers broker getting it all.
What ernstmfg2970 said. How many offers are they going to get in a reasonable amount of time. Selling a boat is a part time job until it's sold. I think the "time investment" is equal between the seller and the buyer. I like ernstmfg2970 recovery play - just what I would have done.
I just went thru this process. Your video was right on with a few exceptions. First I had to put a deposit down (10%) after my offer was accepted. The survey was then done. The negotiations were perhaps the most interesting part of the process. At the very first I offered approximately 10% off the asking (62k) they came back at (68k). This was not surprising as they had reduced their list by 10% a week before. I accepted the 68 and started the survey. Survey found water heater was leaking, main sail needed replacement (was disclosed previously) and a few other items. I then asked for a 3k discount, thinking they would come back at splitting it. They came back offering only 500 off (price of a new water heater, uninstalled). I asked the broker to go back and ask them to split it at $1500 off. It was no dice, they said take or leave it.
The interesting part is why would they risk losing a buyer. The answer was simple. I was playing a hand of Texas Holdem with my cards face up.
I had invested approximately $2k in engine inspection, rigging inspection and survey. The broker knew I had arranged for a slip for the boat. When the boat was hauled out I had them put new zinks on it.
So what did I do? I told the broker I was not going to buy the boat. The broker couldn’t believe it, but sent me the paperwork to refuse purchase which I signed.
The next day the broker suggested I submit a new offer with the compromise discount 66.5k. I said I didn’t want to do that as I didn’t want them coming back with something else. I was also leaving for a two week trip which would make me unavailable. The broker said
they would make the offer verbal before writing it up to see if they would go for it.
They of course did.
The thing to remember is you have no one on your side, contain your enthusiasm, keep your poker face.
SO, in the end you got the boat for 66.5,k plus you was out 2k for inspection and what not, so, you actually paid 68.5k, when you could have just paid the 68k cash and saved yourself 500 bucks? was that the moral of your story, or was it how you had game? lol.. just wondering and not really bashing you. and i must say you did have good game walking on it..
Great info... Also you need to let buyers know that part of the survey is the haul-out and the buyer is responsible for that cost as well. When I was a broker I always tried to set up the sea-trial, haul-out, and survey on the same day. If the buyer walks away from the deal, the seller has the option to leave the boat on the hard and paint the bottom or do any repairs he wants as long as the yard has room. Great videos my friend..
And always take a very strong flashlight when looking at a boat!
I would like to suggest a couple of additional important points. First, where are you going to keep the boat after you buy it. You need to at least check into this. Many busy marinas will not transfer a slip when a boat is sold. So if you are in an area where slip space is tight, make sure you have a spot lined up. You may find that you have a very limited time to get the boat out of the marina it is in and that you are paying daily slip fees until you move the boat. You will also want to factor in the cost of moving the boat to its new location. If you buy a boat say in North Carolina and you are in Maine, it will cost you thousands of dollars to move the boat to its new home. That cost will also include a big chunk of your time if you move the boat yourself. Make sure you set your insurance up before you close on the boat because the seller's coverage ends when the deal closes and you need your coverage to start as soon as possible, ideally immediately. Despite what Lady K sailing says, it can be a challenge to find insurance for a cheaper, older boat. Here in the USA there are quite a few insurers that won't even talk to you about a boat older than 30 years, except possibly for liability only coverage. It is generally easier to insure a more expensive boat.
Good points. I had intended to keep my boat in Marina del Rey, 25 minute drive from my house. The day before I set sail down the coast, the guy in charged screwed me on a promised slip. But then I realized, if instead I got a slot in Oxnard, I'd be 70 minutes from my home - driving, but the Channel Islands would now be less than 3 hours away. And it was half the cost. (Of course the guy who I bought the boat from told me all this, but I was fixated. So I really shouldn't say the 'guy screwed me.' He saves me $800/month.) I was sailing south and called the marina in Oxnard making all the arrangements before I arrived. Good move, but I was just reacting and not acting. This is typical for a lot of new boat owner decisions. Turned out great, but this is where having an experienced 'boat friend,' would really help. Which makes making a fair deal with the previous owner really important. I've been on the phone with him several times asking questions, and he's reached out to me on a couple of things he thought of. And he's got a boat to sail anytime he wants, always welcome.
Insurance. I got insurance, paying a bit of a premium ($2300/year for a 45' boat $170k, and I'm a noob sailor) I still haven't gotten answers on critical questions. Because of age (boat's 20 years old, but in great shape) the engine, sails, rigging, dingy, generator, electronics (probably a few other things) are not covered. Okay, so what happens if the boat sinks and everything is lost? I still haven't gotten an answer on that. (If my $170k boat sinks will the max payout be $100k because of all the not covered items? Also my insurance only covers from the Oregon border down to a few miles south of Ensenda in Baja and 100 miles off the coast (which includes all the Channel Islands.)
Insurance asked a lot of questions about lithium. This seems to be the current fear of insurance. (I don't have any, and after informing my insurance company wouldn't hesitate to get it, but I think I'd keep the DIY aspects to a minimum. I'm not afraid of lithium, I sit on 74 kWh of it in my Tesla.) I also discovered (when U-Haul refused to refill them) that my propane tanks are 8 years expired. Even though they're expensive aluminum ones in terrific condition, federal law says 12 years (5 year extension if you apply for it within those 12 years.) I am definitely going to replace them ASAP. If anything happened to my boat I'm sure no matter what happened the dates on these tanks would be used against me. So $250 for two steel tanks or $650 for two new aluminum ones.
You also write about transferring a boat. At first I thought: I'm in Los Angeles, Southern California is a big market. But one day I realized that if I bought a boat farther away my first big sail would be to Southern California. Almost immediately my boat came on the market, up the coast near Monterey. Insurance required me to hire a captain for the transfer south; I got in four days of sailing. Cost me about $1750. (The last day I was on my own because 'Captain Ron' quit.) If I had to wait a couple of months for clear weather? Wouldn't have been a big deal. (I did 3 750 mile round trips and then took the train up - audio books.)
@@WillN2Go1 there are two types of boat insurance policies. The cheap policies use a depreciating value for payouts. The better policies are called agreed vale policies. In those policies there is a value agreed to by you and the insurance company called the "agreed value" that is paid out in case of a total loss. Most policies also cover dinghy, but unless you had the policy written to cover your specific dinghy and motor, the coverage may be small (say $2,500). Most yacht policies also don't give great coverage for engines. Generally if your engine blows up you are out of luck. However, if your boat partially sinks and the engine is killed due to being submerged it will normally be covered. Read the policy to find out what your policy covers. Incidentally, I view your boat as pretty new since mine is 50 years old and I sold my "old" boat last Spring (86 years old).
@@todddunn945Thanks Todd, really useful and interesting information. Wow, 50 and 86 years. I have some homework to do.
To me the process works slightly differently I mean first and foremost I agree with buyer the price I'm willing to pay for his boat. If the buyer accepts than I move to see the boat. Anything I find I deduct from the agreed initial price... If the buyer is not interested I don't even move to see his boat
@@KoDeMondo to me making an offer without seeing a boat is just crazy. Personally, I will spend a day, at least, looking the boat over in detail before I make an offer. That is after the first 2-3 hour cursory inspection. The offer should always be contingent on survey.
Love the "armchair sailor" comment, Tim. It's so true that there are tons of on-line critics that say you should only buy some high end, semi-custom, bullet proof, 7 figure machine. Virtually none of these "experts" own one of these boats, and in fact, most don't own a boat at all. They just site at home and watch RUclips videos to acquire their "knowledge." Their credibility in my mind is zero and I pay no attention to them. As for self-inspecting pre-offer and pre-survey, I'm always used your "walk the decks" technique to get an early idea of the boat's structural condition. I actually baby-step the entire deck over every square foot feeling for de-lamination. If there is any, that's usually an immediate deal breaker. Unfortunately for C & C, back in the day I'd discovered this too many times on their mid-70's to mid-80's models. Finally, the survey is huge and necessary. Yes, it's expensive and it may be tempting to skip it if you are not financing the boat, but it is your best negotiating leverage when finalizing your purchase price with the seller. You'll almost always get your $1200 in survey cost back due to price adjustments you are able to secure as a result of things the surveyor finds, especially because he has that magic tool, a moisture meter.
+1 for an in depth video on insurance and the logistics of marinas. Love the videos, keep em coming!
I called Tim a few weeks back to get his opinion on a sailboat. I mentioned how I easily had spent thousands boat hunting the past 16 months and could write a book on "How Not to Buy a Sailboat". Note: It's even harder when you live in Iowa and are buying a boat for the Keys. This is a great video and would have saved me thousands as a first time sailboat buyer! This is far and away my favorite RUclips Channel.
Good video overall. One thing to note is that a surveyor should never share the survey results with the seller or selling broker. It is yours and yours alone as the potential buyer. Also, most brokers are going to want a purchase agreement (and deposit) prior to survey and test sail.
Yes the survey is the property of the buyer since he paid for it. If the deal does not go through then the buyer has the option to sell the survey to the seller. Typically an accepted offer along with a 10% deposit of earnest money held in the brokerage's trust account will be a necessity before a sea-trial . After the sea-trial, the buyer has the option to walk away or proceed to haul-out and survey.
Hi
here in Europe we handle things differently. We make our offer based on looking at the boats state and the condition the selller promises. If the offer is accepted we sign a contract with the note, that any bigger issues found during the survey are subject to price reductions based on repair/replacement costs. If you are clever the seller has to pay survey and haul out in case he walks away from the deal later.
cheers
This is a great idea 💡
It makes far more sense to take the advertisement seriously... & so long as the surveyor is good at his job..! 🎉🎉
I'd like to add that you should testsail the boat, with or without the owner. Get an hour or two on the water to see how she behaves under sail and under engine.
Brilliant. Not only is this helpful for me but I can have my wife watch and give her an understanding of the process.
Thanks Tim! Just made an offer on a IP 370 in WI, your knowledge has been very helpful in narrowing our search and selecting that boat!
Great to hear!
Very comprehensive 2 parter, Tim. Thanks.
Thanks for watching!
Oh wow, thank you so much for the mention!! ^_^
Subbed!!
@@southernpaths2986 Thank you! ^_^
I can't even begin to tell you how helpful I found these two videos!!!! Thank you so much for covering these details!
Great videos Tim. I wish that I had seen them prior to my two journeys in purchasing boats. One thing that you didn’t mention though ( and which I found out my self) is that your surveyor typically doesn’t give you an evaluation on the engine. I had to purchase this service separately from a Diesel engine expert. This is important as it is an extra expense for the potential purchasers d you list the engine as one of the three key systems that could be a deal breaker
Keep the great videos coming. It’s great to have someone reviewing the older lower price point boats that an average purchaser can afford vice the 1m 2023 Krakens, Benes and Rustlers
10:14
I spent the last few days watching your Lady K Sailing - not the boat videos as we have our perfect boat. I noticed in one of the videos that you were concerned about the swage fitting discolouration and that you went as far as talking to Herb and Maddie from Rigging Dr. On our last trip north from the Bahamas to Owen Sound, we had a break in one wire of the genny forestay as well as breaks to the stays'l stay. We looked into dyneema using primarily Rigging Dr., James from Zingaro and very importantly John Franta from Colligo. We decided to go with the dyneema and are building our new rig over this winter while I am off work. If you would like, feel free to get in touch and we can talk it over. Susan and Rick.
Well done, really... I was lucky enough to own three used boats that I bought by increasingly refining the buying process which I can confirm is very close to what you describe in the video. In the European area where I sail, it is also very important to evaluate the cost of storage from the moment of purchase and the cost of its transfer to the shipowner's usual port of docking. Cost can be important...
Its nice of you to give Digi a shout out! Very informative channel.
Great examples of poor maintenance in this video; thanks for finally addressing insurance issues. Cover outhauling and being on the hard soon. Thanks for this one.
Bulkhead tabbing is becoming a big inspection dealbreaker check box on more recent mass produced monohulls and cats. The adhesives used are often substandard and can degrade over time when comparing to older glass composite tabbing. Look for evidence of keel strikes at lower bulkheads causing separation. And also dig deep to look at chainplates and mounts if possible.
You're great 🙏 ...Thank you 😊
I'm thinking about buying a 35 ft sailboat and live on it in Annapolis. I have a great slip available to me for free and I thought I'd be a great way to live and enjoy life in my semi-retirement. Price is a consideration so I was looking at like 1990s Catalina 34s. But I'll be watching your channel and getting lots of advice from you. I'll look into donating to your channel once a month...Thank you for sharing all this great information 😊
Morgan
Thanks for the video. I plan to start looking seriously in next 6 months -- the things to look for and the insurance issue were helpful.
Spot on video with great information! And awesome shout out for the Digital Mermaid 😎Woot Woot!
Great points especially about forgetting to take the pictures lol how many times we go back home sitting at night thinking about it and wish we had a photo to look at.
So... This is, of course, helpful. I'd like to tell you: I've just lately been looking at a boat, a rather larger, more expensive Beneteau. Being sold in the U.S. I'm told, by the broker, that that process would be to make an offer pending survey, and that the "offer" involves a 10% deposit, which the broker holds in escrow, if, and only if, the offer is accepted. Then the surveyor is hired, and in addition to the inspection, there'd be a sea trial... test the engine and transmission... raise the sails... then a short haul out, more inspection, and then returning the boat to the water. All of which would be at the buyer's expense.
Thanks Mike for sharing, its really been of great help, as are the rest of your videos!
Great couple of episodes! Very helpful. I'm exploring the market now, so this is timely.
Thanks for your help! I bought a '85 Catalina 22. Swing keel.
Another great video. Thanks you.
a few notes on the 343 you reviewed. The example you noted on Yacht world has pictures that are not of a 343. The Companion way pictures with the Clear Dodger are not of a 343. The example for sale in St Martin for 45K looks a lot like the one I lost in hurricane Irma. We sailed it from new till 2017. The St Martin one is an example of a very well used boat after it endured a hurricane, but it has a new Mast. Ps Yanmar indicates that their engines have a life of 10,000 hours before rebuild with proper oil changes. Enjoyed your Video most informative.
Awesome!
Great stuff! Thanks Tim!
As a broker I am enjoying the videos. But first when negotiating price with a broker they are going to expect a deposit to start negotiating the deal. Usually 10% of the offer. Generally a check and often a copy of the check to show that buyer is serious. I often don't deposit it until an agreed price is reached. But I will absolutely deposit the check before survey, sea trial haul out. The reason being a surveyors only recourse is to put a lien on the boat as is well as any boat yard involved. My job as a broker is to protect the owner. I often work as a buyers broker as well and the same still applies but my clients interest is still at the top of my list. I would encourage people to find a good local to semi local broker to represent their interest. Especially if pursuing a higher end non local boat.
Insurance is still a bit of a bugaboo but having helped clients recently I know it can be done.
Love your trinity thing. I would like to say that not long ago I commonly told people that ten percent less than ask was a gimme most of the time but market has changed. But unless you get good insight to the particular situation 20% less than ask will be treated as insulting.
Keep up the good work
I might not agree with everything but you are fairly on target
As a broker, do you see value in separate, stand-alone rigging or engine surveys in addition to the general survey?
@@southernpaths2986 Yes I do. A regular surveyor is looking a primarily structural components. The do have pretty solid knowledge of what an engine supposed to run like but occasionally a separate engine survey is a good idea. Depends on engine size to some extent as well. Small one, two or three bangers are usually pretty simple and they perform or they don't. Bigger turbo diesel start a different path. As for rigging surveyors almost never go aloft and are limited in scope of assessment as well as just not as versed in rigging details. Insurance companies seem to be hung up on standing rigging over ten years old. I'm in fresh water area and find that kinda stupid. But a Florida boat or previously circumnavigated boat that's where I get it.
Also seems like there are power and sail surveyors, while certified in both I'd check into what kind of background or just plain interest a surveyor has.
Thanks for the great knowledge and incite
Thanks for the info!
Why does the seller get a free copy of the survey. Seems to me the seller should have to share the cost if he will be able to benefit from it. Also, if a boat is declined after a survey, and the next interested party wants a survey a week or two later, can he just buy it from the previous interested party? Or do separate shoppers all have to hire their own survey? Great presentation.
I suspect he misspoke. I have bought three sailboat and sold two. The seller doesn't get the survey unless you sell it to them or give it to them.
When you talk about the cost of the 3 big items, standing rigging, sails and engine, I have some comments/questions
1) standing rigging- I was involved in rigging for 38' Leopard cat where local riggers/shops wanted $10K for material and install labor. Instead the rigging was ordered from S Africa builder for $5K and will be installed for less than $1K. This is compact wire and diamond rigging design, but shopping around saved at least $4K. Owner had considered self install using rigging tension device.
2) Sails- do you have any opinions on sails from far east sail lofts? Their prices seem to be lower than stateside suppliers, but what about quality and accuracy of cut?
3) engine replacement. Seems to me that "marine" versions of small diesels are quite expensive for what they are, even the "red" ones. Have you heard of anyone using a Chinese made marine diesel and their experience? A YT video from 6+ years ago cruiser got a 2 or 3 cyl one for his sailboat for like $2K, installed it himself and it worked fine (see YT "marine diesel from china" or similar wording for land based test of engine)
The very last thing anyone wants on a boat, in a marine environment or while out at sea, is a cheap knock-off. It will simply not hold up. The parts MOC grade will be of inferior quality or will be plated steel. You will save 20-30% on the engine, but will pay dearly later.
@@Dave-SailsAway Perhaps you should ask the DIY sailor youtuber A liquid Life from episode titled TD Power 3M78 ...etc from 8 yrs ago how his engine lasted. I think the savings was more in the 60-70% range but not sure. I was just asking a question if Lady K author had heard of any instances.
Gah! A Yeti on the Settee! This video has a ton of good info! Thank you!
I would love more videos and deeper dive videos of these things
If you now decide to to buy a boat how do you transfer the money? What paper work show the proper owner ship of the boat? How do you know if the boat you are intrested in is not stolen? There are so many scammers out there so this would be good to know.
Really good points but not quite complete. There is a lot more negotiating going on when you buy a sailboat, it isn't like buying a car. Here are my steps; 1. Search until you find a good boat using Tim's pre-survey approach.2. Decide how much you can pay and make an offer. This is where some of the negotiating takes place. Make a down payment to show you are serious, the broker will probably demand it. 3. Get a survey. Look over the survey carefully, you may be able to knock off more money if it needs work. At this point the seller may dig in his heels, so be prepared to walk if that happens. When you are finally agreed on price, 4. Go out sailing. At this point try to get as much info from the seller that you can on things he has learned about operating his boat. Believe me when I tell you this will save many hours of experimenting.
Lastly, enjoy you boat. After all that you deserve it.
"Outside indicates the inside". I walked up to my boat the first time, the owner was in the dinghy waxing the side. His first words were, "I like to polish." It'd be fair to say, 'yeah right.' But my slip is at his old marina and that's what everyone there says about him. And yep the inside, the engine, just about everything is in great condition. There's a double set of multi-Raycore filters. I doubt the second set has ever been used, and there are spares for everything. (Anyone need a window or hatch for a Hunter? I can probably send it to you. I've got a complete second set.)
"Take pictures" You should take pictures, but you should have a friend with you holding a GoPro. Get HD video, maybe of the whole walk through with the current owner, but definitely of the survey. This is your operator manual, I didn't do this because my memory is so good....and I'm still poking around looking for the fore mascerator, and I've spent time looking for things that were never there. Had I a video, I could've just scrolled through and these answers would be there.
I think in future I would approach the surveyor a bit differently. Nick O'Kelly says he always says, "Make me want to not buy this boat." I think I'd say, I want a list of all the things that are going to need fixing, replacing, upgrading and about when. My rigging is 20 years old in great shape, but standing rigging has a general life expectancy of about 10-12 years. I knew that, but it should be mentioned in the survey. The only recommendation on my survey is to update the EPIRB. I think when we hire people their first motivation is to fulfill our expectations. I really want to know what's going on, to understand. I had a highly rated surveyor, but I definitely didn't get ''an astounding amount of data." (I think it would be great for Tim to add to his consulting service a couple examples of great surveys and not so great (incomplete.) And maybe a checklist to send to the surveyor. Are you going to do all of these things? (I got no market report, I did get a boat value.) How did my surveyor miss that the electronic compass was 180 degrees out? Another sailor scoffed and said, "All your survey has to say is that it was there and it turns on." That would've been helpful to know.
Awesome nailed it. I am in this exact stage of purchasing a boat. This was very helpful. Thank you.
What they say about the leading cause of boat fires being electrical problems? Isn't fiberglass the most flammable and toxic when burning? Is adding hugh voltage battery packs, controllers and cables in water the best idea?
A big advantage of having your own boat broker is that they'll be able to provide you with the comparable boats and you won't have to wait for the surveyor to tell you them. Your boat broker and the seller's boat broker split the brokerage fee, so there's no "apparent" cost to you. However, if you don't use a broker, you can tell the selling broker you want him to kick in some money because you don't have a broker. Usually broker fees are 10% of the selling price, so you can easily ask that the selling broker to eat 1 or 2% of the boat price. He can say no, but you can at least ask...
What are the pitfalls or hurdles of buying a vessel in Australia vs Europe for a person in the USA?
In Australia are very very expensive to compare Europe prices for production boats, if you want to buy something different in steel or aluminium here in Australia is good place and cheaper than Europe
great info thx!
Nice video
Reading the comments and from other videos on sailing. There is a lot of misinformation about insurance. I am an insurance agent. Marine insurance is different and most of your “captive” State Farm/Allstate agents will not know or have the ability to. But a good independent agent can get you multiple quotes from reputable carriers. Depending on your vessel and what you are using it for.
Well, I'm down to a consult! I have a soup/sandwich situation: a 1977 IOR racer converted to a cruiser in 1996, or, a much newer Jeanneau/Beneteau at a much higher price. My parameters are 'reasonable' but, in the end- I want a long distance cruiser that can remain away from power for long periods. I've found a few boats- none next door, sadly- but, need to narrow down the selections!!!
Will the surveyor climb up the mast to check the mast, the spreaders, and the standing rigging?
Will he survey the sails?
Will he do a compression test on the engine?
Will he check the corrosion of tanks?
Is it better to survey the boat in the water or on the hard?
I would pay for a survey only if the seller agreed beforehand that any defect or issue found will be deducted from the asking price based on the cost estimates of the surveyor or if the seller doesn't want to sell at that reduced price, then he will come up for the costs of the survey incl. the costs of hauling out & hauling back in.
You spoke of the holy Trinity of repair. Sails, standing rigging and engine. I'm very curious about Dynema. It's lighter, way more cost effective and you can do it yourself. Do you have any information pertaining to Dynema? I know it's stronger than steel, but I'm curious about it's resistance to UV rays. Not to mention when do you know that it goes or is getting close to giving up the ghost, so to speak. There is very little information pertaining to this. I assume it's because of it eats into the money to be made on the riggers and Marina's. And I know not to ask the companies that sell it, they'll tell me that it also gets rid of barnacles and it navigates on its own. Could you please find info on this subject and make a video about this?
I am working on bringing my Mirage 33 based in Montreal to the Bahamas next fall/winter. My broker's insurance companies do not provide this coverage.
I am shopping around and having trouble with needing a survey of my boat that is less than two years old (my last survey is 4 years old) and there are some questions about my qualifications to take her south. I've owned keelboats for 18 years and navigated Tadoussac, Lake Champlain and Lake Ontario. It's getting complicated.
Love your videos. I tried to access your Discord link but had no luck. I contributed a one-off support payment to your work. Would be nice if you could give us your thoughts on a Kraken 50 Vs Moody54DS as ocean-crossing yachts, say Capetown South Africa to Sydney Australia :). Keep up the great work! Mike from Strathalbyn SA
Why after I paid for a survey would I be expected to turn it over to the seller at no cost? If he/she can use it in the future? I’m not sure I would be willing to do that without recouping some of my fees. Thanks Tim
Do your consults cover west coast sailors?
The typical purchase process in the UK thru a broker sees you make an offer then sign a subject-to-survey contract and pay a deposit (10% typically). The contracts stipulate timeframes for the process and might give you say two or three weeks to completely the survey otherwise you are deemed to agree to purchase the boat without a survey or loose a chunk/all of your deposit. After eighteen days I’m still waiting for my highly regarded surveyor to visit the boat after making numerous promises. Arghh! Buying a boat is almost as stressful as selling one!
Yes, here in the USA you are not going to go to survey without an accepted offer typically accompanied by a 10% deposit that the broker holds in their escrow account. It is not much of a surprise that the typical broker's commission is also 10%. A survey can be rather pricey. Here in Maine a pre-purchase survey will typically be in the $20-30 per foot range, plus you will have the cost of a haulout. How much a haulout costs depends on location and how busy the yard where you get it done is. Typically the haulout will run you $15 to $20 per foot of the boat's length. Note that sailboat surveys seldom tell you much if anything about the condition of the engine other than what is discovered when the boat is moved to the yard for haulout. If the boat is out of the water when you are buying it, the survey likely won't tell you anything about the engine other than its physical appearance. If the engine is a concern for you then you will have to commission a separate engine survey by a reputable diesel mechanic. If the boat is out f the water when you make your offer, you should include a contingency amount in the offer that depends on the condition of the engine when the boat is launched. You will likely need to hire a mechanic to make that final evaluation.
Looking at boats in the $140-180,000 range, it seems to me that most are over priced by about $20-40,000 for their age and condition. I think next year is going to be a real wake up call to these sellers, once the recession really starts roaring.
You can say the same for houses
@@maddogmaz1576 Our county very quickly raised every ones' property taxes this year because of the artificial price increase, brought about by thousands of homes being bought by investors. I wonder if they'll be as quick to lower them next year seeing as we have already dropped $40,000 and it's going to be worse in 2023? I'm not holding my breath.
I think everyone forgets what a brand new boat costs these days almost any used boat seems like a bargain in comparison. Not to say that there aren't over priced boats out there but Covid sure gave the market trust me.
Do you get a survey on a boat under $30k
I would if you are a novice. They will keep you out of a bad boat. Also, a good one will talk with you along the way and will give you great information on the boat, its condition and how things "work". The written survey then becomes your "to do" fix list
Looks like your example 343 sold for $10k less than the price you already said was low. Guess the market is softening quite a bit
I thought osmosis would also be a deal breaker.
Ouch that hurt! I don't even own a armchair!! You forgot the biggest rule of all don't fall in love.
You didn't mention getting a buyer's agent - which typically is paid for by the seller. Opinions?
Why would a seller pay for the buyer's agent?
It is the same a buying a house. A percent of the sale goes to the brokers. Something like 5%. So if you don't have your own buyers broker the selling broker gets all 5%. If you have your own broker they split it. If you are a buyer not really a good reason not to use a broker as the seller kind of payes for it with the commission split.
I would really like to hear opinions about using a buyer's broker? I am assuming it makes sense especially if you want to have someone do the research and find options for you?
"Holy Trinity" is fascinating.... Wonder how many people fell in love with an impulsive purchase, only to have committed HARI-KARI 🗡⁉
So every 2 years a survey at around 1,000 give or take to get insurance.
The link to The Digital Mermaid RUclips does not work.
Try this link ruclips.net/video/1wE8yG7IOH8/видео.html
Thanks Jan. I was able to find the Digital Mermaid with a simple RUclips search. I can see your reply with the link in my notifications. I cannot see it on this video. I don't think RUclips likes links in the comments.
How to buy a sailboat? Start with a lot of money then add more money. (;, Having owned a boat and lived aboard for 5 years, I wouldn't have traded it for anything.
Your link to the Digital mermaid is broken.
She commented in this thread. Click on her profile picture and it’ll take you to her channel.
Take pictures! Lots of pictures. Maybe a walk thru video. Your camera/phone can take pictures you can reach, but can’t see. And pics of part numbers.
⛵🤘
Holy trinity. I gotta disagree on this a bit. Engine yes. Other two, not so much. Why? If the sails are bad, but are serviceable, they can still be used. No safety issue. And when funds are available, buy one at a time. Standing rigging. Well, they are supposed to be changed every 10 years (as a safety measure) due to likely unseen corrosion anyway. And, what owner does this every decade? Few. So the standing rigging probably needs to be replaced anyway. To me, the most important thing is the hull and the spars. If the hull (and cabin top) is sound, the boat has good bones. For me, trinity: hull and cabin top, spars, engine. I guess the hull is hard to know condition without it being hauled out, and at that point, it is time for the survey since this will cost money.
heineken is not beer.. its glorified urine
Love your , channel.if you know anyone in Australia who needs a hand,iam keen as.saving for my own liveaboad.thank you.michael Australia 🦘🦘🦘🦘🦘🦘🦘🌏
Take a body camera video fully charged. And talk about everything you see
Nobody should ever consider "repowering" a sailboat with LiFePo batteries and motors with the current offerings in the "solar power" field at this time unless they want 3 specific things to happen. 1. Your range for motor use will be limited to about an hour or less of usage at full charge. Which means you will be stuck coastal cruising. 2. Have tons of money to burn and wish to virtue signal how green you are to the world. 3. Prove that you lack common sense to run the numbers to find out how impractical this option would be thusly showing the world you are a fool.
With the limitations on how many solar panels you can put on a boat, how fast an electric engine motor will drain the batteries, and the mass of the batteries needed to make electric engines propel a boat for any length of time you are just throwing money down the drain. If you install one of these foolish things you will still need to have a generator run by fuel to take your boat anywhere. Without the gen you are just asking for disaster. Dont take the advice of any of these 'RUclips" channels that advise you to do this. They will only make your wallet shrink and might get you killed.
I don't completely disagree with some of your points but we need to remember that boats managed without auxiliary power for hundreds of years. Absolutely true that batteries have less energy density than liquid fuel and those physics aren't going to change...but batteries ARE getting better (and cheaper)...to the point where they CAN replace gas/diesel in some applications. There absolutely ARE use cases where battery/electric is more than adequate for an owner and many examples of where it wouldn't be appropriate, safe, or convenient. There are some "sailors" that never put the sails up and motor even when there's wind but there are others that run the engine only when absolutely necessary. Potential EV sailors would fall into that second catagory. As an EV (car) owner/driver, I don't miss all the oil changes and maintenance and as an engineer I appreciate the efficiency (I'm not a "greenie", it's just math). Those same benefits would translate well to marine use.
The biggest cost driver is going to be the size of the battery bank. For some, all they really are going to need is enough power and energy to safely navigate a marina and get out into open water (and back again). We're talking about hundreds of dollars, not thousands (like a new engine). Others may require hours of continuous operation. This is where costs would approach a new engine but for some might still be a viable option and without the maintenance hassle, noise, smell, and vibration of diesel.
Solar is the cheapest but not the only way to charge. I believe some of these setups allow for battery charging through propeller rotation. There are hydro-generators on the market that can produce up to 600W. So, if you're under sail - you're charging, if you're on the hook - you're charging (solar), and if you're in a marina you're absolutely charging and topping off that battery bank (for "free" with shore power).
At what point does the seller get a copy of my survey that I paid for @16:23 the broker works for me and not the seller. The broker gets to see the survey but doesn't get a copy of it and the same applies to the seller, they get to see the survey.
Most of the sellers I know have a copy. Wonder why you didn't get one 🤷🏼♂️
@@LadyKSailing Sorry I worded that badly, What I meant is why should the seller get a copy of a survey that the potential buyer paid for. Surely that should be privy between the potential buyer and the broker.
It could be because he is not suggesting you have a buyers broker. If you dont the sellers broker also represents the buyer. That broker would get the survey I suspect and would give it to the seller in that situation maybe? I have always used my own broker vs the sellers as is costs the buyer nothing to use one. They just split the commission vs the sellers broker getting it all.
What ernstmfg2970 said. How many offers are they going to get in a reasonable amount of time. Selling a boat is a part time job until it's sold. I think the "time investment" is equal between the seller and the buyer. I like ernstmfg2970 recovery play - just what I would have done.