I can understand. But that scene, it started a conversation that changed attitudes GLOBALLY. The amount of good that scene ended up doing can not be overstated.
*"Having to do that to Sarah,"* The emotion when he says her name. She really is his friend. And it hurt him to do that. You're a good man James. Makes me respect you so much. And respect for being so open and talking about this.
I think that's what amplifies the "horror", for lack of a better term ATM (still haven't had morning coffee). He didn't just try and dissociate by saying "her" to put distance while telling the story. For many, it was a scene in a show, but for him it was probably about as real as it can get without being "Real", if that makes sense. I can't watch scenes like that either. Too many bad - well I was going to say memories, but my brain has decided to keep all those memories locked up in a vault for my protection - Let's just say like James, I too want to smash the TV when scenes like that play out. Kudos to him for getting something good out of it (therapy), but for having the agency to make sure he is never put in a situation to do a scene like that again. No one should have to be made to endure trauma to make entertainment , I don't care what actors or artists say.
Thank you, James Masters. This is so cathartic to hear him hate this scene as much as we all did. Its so sad this has affected him so badly, I'm sure Michelle Geller likewise must have hated doing that scene too.
It, unfortunately, was necessary to get Spike to realize he may well have had his way and could not trust himself without the soul, the " governor", the conscience AGAINST that, so to get him on his quest for his soul. And for Buffy, finding about this, to realize that he really loves her.
As an author there's infinite other ways to get there without harming the actors. I actually got triggered so badly I avoided his career. Friend send me this and I am going to revisit things because I feel safer knowing the root of the actual problems is not in the actor choosing the parts to go for in this case. Subtext here is eff Joss Whedon
@@chronicallykat4920 Same. I had lived through something very similar and much more traumatic about a year before I saw that episode of Buffy and it made me stop watching Buffy for a long time and made me avoid anything with Marsters for years. It took a really really long time to be able to be able to allow myself to get back into the fandom and I still don't love it as much as I used to before that.
@@chronicallykat4920 Fuck Whedon and the writers. Let's not forget that the concept was created by the writers and signed off by Whedon. Also as a writer, there are so many ways they could have done it that would have been more impactful to the story and not trauma damaged the actors.
My favorite scene of Spike is actually from Angel where he’s on top of a building watching Angel do his vigilante thing and Spike is narrating the scene with all the requisite voices. He was a priceless gem! Absolutely hilarious!
I watched Angel because it happened to be airing reruns and caught my eye, but that wasn't the case with Buffy at the time. That scene is the only reason I went out of my way to watch Buffy.
I always like Spike more on Angel honestly. It allowed both the goofiest and deeper thoughtful parts of his character to be explored more. On Buffy he was always defined by his relationship/obsession, whatever it was at the time, to the Slayer.
I highly doubt James Marsters will ever see this, but I just wanted to say that of all the things he’s known and remembered for, this scene is thankfully nowhere near the top of the list. He’s given us so many fantastic moments on-screen, and they will always come to mind before this one.
Agreed. I feel bad for him. He was contractually obligated to do an SA scene that was a sort of assault on him since he could not say no and had to physically act out something traumatic.
Spike is my all time favorite. James made him iconic. I literally just watched Buffy with my friend and it was their first time watching Buffy. So I figured I’d be kind and warn them of the SA scene beforehand. They loved spike as well and dreaded watching that. But after they watched that they said “that’s unfortunate that they felt they had to put that in, however I still love spike.” James made him that endearing truly a gem.
I think many of us who do remember this scene are also very aware of how he feels about it. And to hear a man say "I hated even pretending to commit SA, it was awful and I needed therapy because I recognize what a terrible thing it is to do" can be quite powerful.
@@pollyrg97 That’s also very true. James Marsters has a well-deserved respect among fans because of things like this (and just generally being a good guy). I don’t think there are many people (if any) who would confuse him with Spike in terms of his moral compass!
Like many have said, I was completely shocked to find out he wasn't British. He not only had the voice down cold, but the lingo, the references and personality were totally convincing. Mad respect to the man...
Anthony Head’s accent in relation to life is similar to what spikes was and helped James Masters with it. But a lot of brits were surprised with how good it was, not because it was spot on from day one, but because he sounded like a posh bloke trying to sound common.
@@Bow-to-the-absurd wait, you think that most of the accents of the show sounded ridiculous? You do know that they were Americans speaking with an American accent, you know, their own accent.
He had me so convinced that the first time I heard him act with an American accent ( I don't even remember what it was, ) I thought his "accent" sounded so fake.
As horrible as that scene was, I always viewed it as Spike FINALLY hitting bottom. SOMETHING had to push for redemption. As horrible as this was, it was the catalyst to bring him to another level. I don't think there was really anywhere else to go with Spike. He had no soul...
I agree. As much as I hated watching this scene (while my abusive father was in the same room).... it really did make the pain and regret Spike had with a soul hit as so much truer than if he hadn't done his worst betrayal. Those days where Spike was barely sane and in pure hell felt like James screaming. As a viewer and fan, this felt like redemption for both character and actor. I just wish he didn't have to go through this for the sake of a TV show, this kind of trauma is never worth someone else's enjoyment. I'm sorry James. You deserve so much love.
Nah. It felt like they did it for that reason - to give him a motivator - but I think he could have done it anyway. They played it that he loved her that much by this point, that with all Spike's sensitivity with Drusilla and Buffy and Dawn, it still felt massively out of character. He's deeply intellectual; I genuinely think some logic like 'if I get a soul I might be able to be a man she would love' could be enough for Spike without this. If people felt like that really wouldn't work, they still could have come up with something more character-consistent. The fact that he really (and they both, if I recall correctly) didn't want to do it and the writers/showrunners DGAF is really depressing - surely they know their characters well enough by now that they could have had ideas about a better path. He was evil BUT he loved her, so 🤷♀
I appreciate how James felt about this scene, his concern for its potential harm to Sarah, and noticing its deep impact on his mental and physical health. I hope more men feel visceral repulsion to violence of this type so we can eliminate it, on-screen and off.
I can say, at least, with certainty: He's not alone in this. Some guys, they act like they could cheerfully ignore a woman's right to agency as long as they don't get caught, and in many cases they probably would. It's dangerous to say "Oh he probably doesn't really mean that." Because that is yet to be seen. But equally, the opposite exists: A man who will clearly and sincerely state, "I don't want this if you don't want it too." Aggressive, assertive guys can be charming in a way, I suppose... but it's important to remember that some of them are that way because they do not _care_ about other people. James is clearly someone who cares, and there are more like him... you just have to find them, and give them a chance; not a ton of leeway to misbehave, just a chance to show they're worth knowing.
@@chadvader974 For me it's okay if it's needed for the plot. I get angry at those kind of scenes but that's the point of storytelling. It's suppposed to make you feel things, good and bad.
@@dawnmuse6481That’s the same thing. Just like there’s many different sub categories of demons on the show, vampires are one of them. Did you really think it wasn’t? Spike has even called himself a demon before.
@@dawnmuse6481 it's explained several times in the show that a vampire is a dead body being inhabited by a demon that basically copies the original person's personality. When someone like Angel gets their soul back, it can override the demonic influence but the demon is always in the there biding time.
@@VanDavis Have a look at The Metaphysics of Buffyverse Souls by FiveByFiveTakes. She does a fantastic job of analyzing what's actually going on -- it's not as simple as "demon inhabiting a human body" :)
I was a HUGE Spike stan when I was a teen but I always found his arc to be a mixed bag. Season 2-3 Spike was an awesome character. As was Spike on Angel. But I was not a fan of the rest of his arc and the Buffy x Spike stuff always especially bothered me. I thought it greatly hurt both characters and was frankly just kind of a ploy to reignite the hype that Buffy x Angel had. Though I think it hurt Buffy more then Spike imo. I can at least understand why Spike would have interest in Buffy(because he's a dude and she was played by SMG in her prime years so there was THAT) but Buffy even entertaining the notion of getting with Spike let alone actually doing it was mind numbing and maddening. /endrant
@@BrandonHeat243I agree on all of that concerning Spike. I get that her motivation is due to feeling numb and depressed after being (quite literally) (SPOILERS).... dragged out of Heaven but it felt kinda cheap and not true to the character. Spiciness for the sake of it.
@@mardroidmk1393 Yeah, I can understand Buffy having mental health issues in season 6 and they should have done SOMETHING with that. But getting with Spike was an affront to the goodness that the character always had. Spike wasn't Angel. Angel was a good soul whose body got taken over by a monster. Spike WAS the monster. It's easy to forget because of how charming Spike/James is in the show but he was a BAD dude and not just in the sexy way. It's hard to know how many people Spike took out in his life but given his age it had to be thousands. Hooking up with someone like that is just completely inexcusable regardless of depression or anhedonia or whatever.
@BrandonHeat243 Angel, when he was human Liam, was an a-hole. He stole from his family and abused women. Instead of working, he spent his time as a drunkard. That was why he was turned into a vampire by Darla. She liked the bad boy he was and knew he'd be worse without a pesky soul. Spike helped stop Angelus from killing the world, before he had a chip in his brain. The chip stopped him from hurting humans. When he discovered he could hurt demons and vamps with impunity, he teamed up with the Scoobies. Then, he got to know Buffy as a person. Not just as the Slayer, and feel in love. As the human Liam, he was always a lovesick poet and something of a momma's boy. Losing his soul made him tougher and meaner, but that didn't totally erase Liam. Spike had the best character arc in the show. He had more soul than Angel, even before Spike got his soul back.
I really appreciate that James was so repulsed by the idea of committing sexual violence that even pretending to do it was traumatic to accomplish, we need all men to feel this sort of revulsion and to say so out loud so other men hear. I’m so impressed with his empathy for the fact that we (the viewers, mostly women and girls) would be watching and empathizing with Buffy and experiencing that scene as the victim.
I mean those crimes are horrible but would those unable to fake that performance still be able to act out a murder scene for instance? Different yes but objectively the scene could be much worse even without a sexual aspect & no one would blink an eye.
@@orphanedhanyou “those crimes are horrible but-“ “the scene could be much worse” You can just stop right there with those unnecessary comparisons to purposefully undermine the severity of sexual violence. First of all, bad things don’t have to be objectively *the worst things* to be “bad enough.” Secondly it’s just gross to downplay the seriousness or severity of sexual violence by trying to come up with something worse. You have demonstrated why men with cameras on them need to be displaying revulsion for sexual violence, because your “it could be worse” thinking is the thinking we need to destroy.
@@orphanedhanyou Murder isn't "much worse" than sexual violence, especially not when depicted in media. When you murder someone, they are dead. Sexual assault victims have to live with what happened to them for the rest of their lives. It comes back to them in vivid flashbacks at the worst possible times. It leads to developing mental health disorders that plague your life. Anything can set them off. With other trauma it's possible to minimise the triggers, with sexual violence it's really not. Worse those kinds of depictions stick with an audience. I know a lot of people who can watch gruesome murder scenes because they don't feel real because the people watching have no baseline, but I don't know many who can watch actual depictions of rape and sexual assault because the visceral feedback is so much more intense.
We all do feel that way. There’s a minority of psychopaths out there that don’t and we don’t associate with them. These scenes are always difficult to watch
This is why sexual/sensitivty coordinators NEED to be on all sets. No one should be put into this situation at any work place and people deserve to have access to supports that allows them safety and EVERY ability to say no.
Well, given what we've found out about how Joss Whedon conducted himself on set at that time, it's not surprising that something like that was ignored.
@@saltycat662 Then... make it illegal for those 'powerful' men to silence their coordinators? Or I suppose we could give up and do nothing some more. How's that workin' for ya, in literally any situation?
@@saltycat662fortunately, the attention given to #metoo and #consent has resulted in contracts being composed to prevent actors from being obligated to depict acts of sexual abuse against their will. An intimacy coordinator can negotiate a compromise that is sensitive to the actor’s needs, while honoring artistic vision of the director and/or writer.
Obviously I'm not a professional but since there's are many different kinds of actors & ways they "get into" a role (ex: not everyone is method), getting so lost you have to go curl into a fetal position when it's fake is hard to understand.
That scene is one that stayed with me. I think it really showed that it can happen to anyone. It could be done by someone that loves you. That no matter how strong you are, it's something that can make you react in unknown ways. I thought it was a raw, powerful and important moment.
I, absolutely, agree. Well said! On top of all that, I also think that scene was a pivotal moment for the character of Spike within the show, itself. It demonstrated in a real visceral way why the relationship between him and Buffy (at that moment) was not a good/healthy thing, despite the fact that he truly loved her. Even though Spike loved Buffy, a soulless Spike was always going to be incapable of fully controlling his own wants/desires or really recognizing where the ethical/moral lines are. Just like any addict (or anyone needing severe psychological help), Spike really needed to do something that would scare himself before he could make the commitment to get better. Attacking Buffy in such a severely intimate way was something he wouldn't be able to forgive himself for and nothing less would have ever pushed that character to fight for his soul ('cause he was always in denial that him being "evil" was a problem until that exact moment).
A couple years before the episode a couple I knew broke up with mutual allegations of abuse. A lot of people in the friend circle didn't believe it because she was a very dangerous person -- ex-sniper, multiple martial arts belts, etc. -- and trying to convince people that it's different when emotions are involved was such a mess. Really opened my eyes to how much misinformation there was on the subject. If people don't believe a longtime friend, why would they listen to a stranger.
A simultaneously important and difficult scene. It's a double edged sword, in that, while it's a powerful teaching moment of sorts, and an important rock bottom moment for the character, it can also be a triggering one, that may force viewers to unexpectedly relive trauma. Because of that scene in particular, along with some other difficult moments, I have to temper recommending the show with a warning. It's a heavy show at times, and I appreciate it for that as I have found it helpful, but it's definitely too heavy for some.
@@Swenglishthis episode is *exactly* why I never recommend this series. Also bc of Joss-- such a massive wake up and disappointment after everything. I have debated even watching the series a second time bc it was so traumatic and triggering.
I honestly saw it as the danger of using someone who you know is unstable for sex. Buffy assumed Spike had no feelings, so she could use and dismiss him at will with no consequence. So while a rough scene. Buffy is realizing she has some culpability, and Spike realizes he's missing something important (his soul).
That scene was profound. I watched Buffy with my teenager. This opened the door to some crucial conversations that both drew us closer and also helped my child understand the inherent dangers involved in relationships. Thank you for that.
I watched it AS a teenager and the change in tone about consent afterwards was like a tsunami. it sucks that it was truamatic for him, becasue the empact it had on the world was wonderful.
as someone who has sexual trauma to see an actor react this way to a sexual assault scene gives me relief knowing that there are people out there that are disturbed by sexual violence and so on it also makes me wonder if James has any sexual trauma himself he's such a good man, God Bless him
As someone with the same: It wasn't just the SA that was horrendous to watch. The accompanying dialogue from that scene is DARK. Like traumatizing. Blech
I remember meeting James and Anthony Stewart Head many years ago at the Melbourne BuffyCon I asked a question about creative outlets (in the arts) and James replied no creativity can exist anywhere in any activity, think about it, even gardening isn’t one of the arts but everything it encompasses is the art of creation. That’s a lesson I’ve shared with so many people who’ve needed to hear it almost 2 decades later. Very wise man indeed
I'm sure someone has already said this but Spike didn't have a soul when this happened. A lot of the good he did was without a soul. He made the choice to be one of the good guys. The fact that this is the moment that propelled him to get his soul back seems to be overlooked. Spike was one of the best and most complex characters in the Buffyverse.
That's the thing: The show doesn't really have a good handle on what being "soulless" actually means. They laid out the fact that Spike had no soul, and asserted that he also had no conscience, and yet *while* he was soulless and without conscience, he cared for Buffy, protected Dawn, loved Joyce. Things that a soulless Angel could not have done. Then they turn around and make Spike do a thing that tons of souled humans have done -- as if that somehow proves he needs a soul to prevent him going that far? What the hell? And this is in the *same* season where Buffy already sexually assaulted Spike (when she was invisible and he'd clearly told her to stop, to leave, to stop playing with him) -- *that* gets played for a laugh. The same season where she'd pretty much trained him that "no" does not, in fact, mean "no" -- and if we're gonna stick with "he doesn't have a conscience" then we can't fault him for failing to know better, now can we? Again, plenty of humans with perfectly good souls have ignored their victims saying "no." Getting a soul doesn't solve that. And even if we take that scene as written, his setup is far less damning than most would be. (You're absolutely right that he's a complex character, and in that scene there's a lot of extenuating circumstances to factor in.) BtVS managed to do incredible things with analogies to real-world issues, but occasionally it dropped the ball HARD. Magical addiction and "I wouldn't assault her if I only had a soul" are two of the big ones.
The "Buffy scene in the bathroom" affected me strongly, gave me an understanding that even if we think we could never do a thing that on a bad enough day we can be pushed farther than we thought we could. And I have ever since really thought about my actions in frustration and anger, I think this scene may have saved me and others from things we never wanted to do or be a part of, Thanks to that writer and James for putting this horrible(non-derogatory) scene out there.
I have great respect for James for being so open about his true feelings of his experience. True human compassion for emotion of acting that was against his valued beliefs.
From Buffy to Torchwood, JM never disappoints. I'm so sorry to hear he went through this. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang---a shout back to the good old days, Captain Hart.
I remember that scene in the episode! It was a mental shift for me for both of characters. It adds realism to a show about fantasy. Sarah and James did a wonderful job with it, so it paid off! I'm sorry he had aftermath issues on this!
The emotional toll from one of the strongest episodes. It had a lasting impact! Always going to love his acting and the character he literally brought to life!!!!
I love James Marsters for his voice acting in the audiobook of the Dresden Files! He does an amazing job and you can really tell he puts his heart into it.
I’ve nothing but respect for you James! Absolute RESPECT from a big fan & British Army veteran, you got me through some of my worst years when could escape into your world. THANK YOU 🫡
I always thought that Buffy's relationship with Spike was way more interesting than her whole 'love of her life' romance with Angel. None of Buffy's relationships were what you'd call healthy, but Spike was broken from the start and was just brutally honest about it. He didn't care if he was pathetic because he literally had nowhere else to go and as long as he was in the slayer's orbit, it oddly protected him from other nasty monsters that might have a beef with him. He had the most interesting redemption arc ever, once he realised he'd have to get a soul somehow for Buffy or any of her human pals to take him seriously. And then he got to rub it in Angel's face that he wasn't the only vampire with a soul anymore. Heck, Angel and Spike's relationship in Angel's spinoff was more interesting than Buffy and Angel, and they mostly squabbled over dumb things as a way to either process or avoid the trauma they'd inflicted on each other for decades.
Hello everyone. Binge watched Buffy for the first time from start to finish over the last few months and I have to admit that the scene in question did set me back a lot in my liking of Spike and I felt it did stall his redemption journey he was on in my eyes. But I do think that it's interesting how Spike's soul being restored was his choice after such a horrific deed where as Angel's was a punishment for his misdeeds and probably would never have seeked to restore his soul willingly.
It's a fantastic show. It's nice to know there are people still experiencing it for the first time. That scene is my only issue with it. The contrast between Spike and the other vampires is fascinating. Spike appears to love even as a vampire. Then you have Angelus, who at first glance seems so different to Angel but is likely just him striped of a conscience. Angel's soul is a curse to him. I also wonder why he didn't seek to get his soul fitted permanently.
@@midnightblackroses I think, given how the writing was, it is subtle hint about how Vampirism works in general. Angel's human self(Liam) was a selfish lout, IIRC. being a vampire just removed any in inhibitions towards that restrained said selfishness. Drusilla was mentaly broken before her turning, so her Vampire Self was similarly broken but more murderous. Harmony was blonde bimbo who, while maybe vain/self-centered, never seemed to mean genuine harm to anyone resulting in her Vampire self being very inadequate at perpetuating evil... Spike was a hopeless romantic and terrible poet, so even without his "soul" he still retained a lot of affection and genuine concern for others even after his turning. IIRC he turned his mother so she wouldnt be sick and frail anymore and... well the result horrified Vampire-Spike...
@@midnightblackroses That's what bothered me about Angel not having a 'new' soul. There was a massive opportunity in Season 4 when Willow had to come back to re-ensouled him once more, and she was more powerful than she used to be when she restored his soul the first time, and Willow did it not long before Buffy grand finale when she went all glowing and all white, like a good all powerful witch. Surely she WOULD know or try to figure out on how to cleanse Angel's soul from the curse? And Angel had this prophecy to be a human, that was quickly forgotten as well. I also felt like this was missed opportunity to add Alyson to Angel cast after Buffy ended for Season 5, so apparently Alyson wasn't happy that Buffy ended cus that mean she'd be out of work for a bit, cus it was sudden (When SMG decided it was time to stop cus she was exhausted and overworked), so why did Joss not offer her to go to Angel the Series for Season 5, we would have see a friendship blossom between Willow and Fred, and Willow would be such an interesting addition to Angel cast, then they could have done a storyline where Willow can work with unlimited resources at Wolfram & Hart, to try to figure out if there's a way to remove the curse from Angel's soul. That was a missed opportunity.
I know the actors had a big problem with this scene and some viewers, but I thought it was a perfect ending for everything that entailed in the Buffy/Spike sexual relationship. It also led to my personal favorite ever scene in the following season after Spike gets his soul back and he breaks down in the church in front of Buffy. "Can we rest now?" still brings a tear to my eye even today when I watch it, but back to my train of thought. If you go back to a BtVS Angel episode where he allows a demon to possess him knowing that the Vampire Demon that already inhabited his body (which was separate from Angel) has been waiting decades for a good fight. So too would the Vampire Demon that is in Spike twist and warp the already weird relationship and indeed his feelings for Buffy into what eventually happened. I know, especially after having worked over a decade on film sets watching actors' performances, that the nature of their craft can lead to exactly what happened to Marsters, so I fully respect him and that he had a super difficult time dealing with it. I just can separate an amazing story line, an amazing performance, and at the same time respect the hardship it takes to deliver such performance. I'm so glad Marsters was able to take time out during filming and then later get therapy cause he is a gem in the world of acting!!
Buffy deserved much more awards, to this day it holds up. The acting by Sarah alone is just phenomenal and you see her come into her own while the seasons went on. She always made her cries seem real it really stood out to me and made her not feel like a badass but just a normal young woman facing struggle.
Season 6 is such an underrated gem. The acting is so fucking good, Seeing Red is an insanely dark episode but I can't help but like it, James Marsters clearly hated doing what he did but he did it so well and Adam Busch as Warren is the best and my favourite villain because he could be any of us. He's just a human.
Well this was the thing that made Spike, his character, go and get his soul so he regretted it instantly. Which can't be said about many other men. So imagine a soulless vampire being better than many real men out there. James is amazing. I really believed his instant HORROR and his regret later when he talked about it in the series. Amazing amazing actor!
I totally loved his British accent and it floored me to find out he wasn’t. I love David Boreanaz but I was a fan Spike. I loved his character on Buffy the Vampire Slayer show. I’m a big paranormal fan so I still love the show and Angel too.
That scene hurt me so much. I grew up watching buffy and I'm still a fan. It wasn't fair to spike as a character. I love spike and I'm forever grateful for James bringing him to life.
While that story element was dark, it led to Spike seeking a way to connect in a more 'human' manner - ultimately to Spike regaining his soul; To seeking redemption for actions. Sometimes a character has to hit rock bottom in order to rise higher than before, which is very entertaining to watch. I enjoyed the scene because I recognized it for what it was. Compelling fiction.
I'd agree if he hadn't already shown every possible sign of having a soul. Heck, at times he was the most compassionate and decent of them all. Pre-soul, and pre-attempted rape scene.
@@monmothma3358I think that’s why it had to happen. Yeah most of the time he’s able to pass as ensouled, but he’s not. He has to have this scene to realise he’s not ok without his soul, that he’s not capable of always being good once the leash of his chip is removed. Yeah he’s a romantic at heart, and his ideas of love carry through, some say heighten, to his vampire state. But he only tends to play nice with others because the chip punishes him if he doesn’t, and being helpful is beneficial to his survival in this neutered state. The only times he’s truly selfless fall under the grand idea of love he has. Then once he realises his chip doesn’t work on Buffy, it’s all about Spike getting what Spike wants. Great whilst Buffy agrees, terrible when she doesn’t.
This compelling fiction can exsist if only it doesn't ruin the rest dynamic. Because the story changed after that for sure and not always for the good when you watch it for the first time. It still had that negative trail, the aftershock affect. They had only one season to fix it and introduce 'a new character' after he got the soul. And there wasn't enough time including not enought time for his story with Buffy. And eventually they returned to smth very similar to what Spike was from the end of s5 till second part of s6 period. You can't say that it was completely new character. They still chose Spike not some other new guy, so what was the freaking point of going that far and still choosing him. And I also want to point out the fact that they write RA for 2 characters knowing that right after that, the very next season they will be writing their relationship adding romantic plotline. No comment here.
@@Marwolaeth01maybe if it wasn’t an unforgivable act especially when they were still love interests after. This wasn’t a rock bottom this is far beyond that. If they had someone controlling him it would have made loads more sense.
@@Ambereigh but that’s the point. There was no one “controlling” him. He had no soul, and he may have thought he knew how to be good, but he tried to do something horrific and had no idea how bad it was until afterwards when he saw the outcome. I believe ensouled Spike would never do that. Everyone keeps viewing Spike’s character from when he got the chip and fell for Buffy, they never seem to remember him in season 2 when he was a full vampire, or the fact he killed two Slayers in his murderous past. I can’t see ensouled Spike doing those things. Perhaps everyone expected him to turn into William, the wimpy poet version of himself, but Angelus didn’t turn into Liam, he became a guilt ridden Angel. Angelus with a soul.
I doubt you will ever see this. James, I know you were worried that as the viewer, it would make us feel powerless, but it helped me when I was going through a hard time. Getting to be buffy in that moment at the end of the scene when she stops him. It's like I could, and that felt healing. ❤ Thank you for everything and I am sorry that you had to go through that.
Buffy had also used Spike. I don't think the scene was just about lust. He had been emotionally invested in the relationship and she had been using him. He's trying to force love out of her and realizes he can't do that by forcing sex on her...that forcing sex is not the love he craves.
@@TheChristianPsychopath Lust involves more than the actual sex act. Lust is a dangerous craving, an uncontrollable desperation needing to be filled. As a vampire and a demon, he doesn’t have the conscience or soul necessary to prevent causing pain to the victim of his lusts. His “conscience” is learned or remembered behavior for when he was human and a want to be poet. Being human or worthy of a human’s love was also something Spike lusted for.
He couldn't say no because he was under contract. Take the contract out of it and that's the core of SA. You try and try to be heard and respected but there aren't any no-s.
If you sign a contract to portray a character, then you have ok'd everything that the character is written to do and say. Its a job. To equate SA on film with SA in real life is ridiculous.
Listening to this really made me stop and think. We watch movies and shows without considering the repercussions on the actors. James Marsters gave us so many wonderful memorable moments on Buffy, and I hope that he finds peace in knowing that we remember him for the wonderful scenes.
Joss Whedon wanting the writers to expose and display their most terrifying, embarassing moments and using it for fodder for a tv show, then coercing actors to do it against their will or they will lose their jobs and likely get blacklisted, isn't a big surprise to me. 🤮
Whedon didn’t even write this episode. Plus, that was the whole theme of the show in the first place - high school equals hell. Until he brought on more writers, most of those experiences came from his own life.
While it seems extreme to "make" actors go through this, this is actually what leads actors to be good at what they do. Anyone who's ever been to an acting coach has experienced this. They have to be willing to put themselves in the shoes of their character (no matter how distasteful the subject matter) or they cannot deliver the emotion behind the scene...viewers wouldn't buy a half-a*ed attempt.
@@ArtVandelayLovesPretzels no one needs a rape scene of any sort, to grasp that government high school is terrible. Only predators would want to see that.
@@VioletPersuasion yeah, that’s why people usually regard the scene as in bad taste. Probably the most hated scene in the entire seven seasons. Whedon was working on Angel and writing Dollhouse and Serenity by this point. He had very little to do with this episode.
That's any job though? You are hired to do x & therefore either you will or you won't. Your boss could say we need to start doing y and you get to say yes or no. Every choice has consequences.
What a nightmare. All you want is to get away, but you're a dedicated actor, so instead you make it feel real. He's said before that this scene hurt him, but I didn't know exactly how much. Tbh, as a therapist myself, hearing about his intense reactions to sexual predation scenes.. I think he's lived through something. And the Buffy scene reminded him of those things.
He's a decent man too, that is clear in the interviews I've seen at least. It's possible someone very close to him went through something. My first love was abused by her own father and any time I see something approaching sexual assault in media I get an urge to, let's just say, "make abusers physically uncomfortable". I can't imagine acting out something like that without wanting to throw up even if it's just acting. If something happened to him personally then he's got balls of steel to be able to do a scene like that.
@@buckaroobonsaitree7488 Definitely decent, and so thoughtful, I'm a huge fan of his. Good point that maybe it wasn't him personally, but someone close. I'm just pretty sure _something_ happened. In another interview he said he grew up in a dysfunctional family. Sorry about your love, I hope she managed to build a good life despite it. It can have such big consequences.
@@TheChristianPsychopath He was?! Do you have a source for that, like one of the interviews you mention? If that's true, it's even more impressive that he managed to put it behind him and get so far as as he did as an actor.
@@monmothma3358 He talked about it at DragonCon several years ago. It's something I heard in person, not sure if it's in text anywhere. If I remember correctly, it was close to the time he was at Julliard, and he has some very negative feelings about Julliard.
I was sorta there when you were going through that in the form of a regular at all your cons and Ghost of the Robot shows for 2 years during that time. I saw you suffering and you told us why at one con (I think it was shoreleave). I was so sorry then and I’m so sorry now what you had to go through in that episode, but really glad you shared the good that came out of it. Hope your life is going happy and well now.
I can't believe the irony of James Marsters being forced against his will into performing a sexual scene in which Spike is forcing Buffy, against her will, into a sexual situation.
That was one scene that I could never watch again, and the first time was when it was brand new so there was no way to be warned. I always had a feeling that James would have been opposed to it based on previous interviews, but never considered this. Huge love for the therapist that helped him get through it, and everyone else that comforted him during filming. And of course for James for sharing this, letting us know we weren't alone.
Big fan of Buffy. This scene really left a mark in me. Happy to hear his process because i love his work as Spike and yes that season (6 i think) was on an other level and triggered me. Thanks for sharing that.
What made the scene worse was that they actually made Buffy injured & weak. Hence, it didn't play out like a superpowered character "easily" defending herself. It played out like a scared & helpless person desperately fighting & pleading for the ordeal to stop. I doubt that it would've been portrayed the same way if it's Drusilla forcing herself on Angel.
He was an amazing character and a fab actor. Buffy was my life when I was a teen. What a deep response to this scene. Wow. What an amazing guy and how awful to have had to go through this.
i already knew what the scene was when i saw the thumbnail, damn, thats one of the harshest to watch in the serie, great acting, i was watching buffy 5 minutes ago, the episode of Spike vs Principle Woods about Spike past and his mother, great episode, great acting. loved it spike is so iconic
I am so sad that they forced him to do a scene like this that put him in therapy. It's lovely that Spike and Lex Luthor are talking this over in a nice way.
I want to praise James for not just his incredible acting abilities and his amazing voice work both with accents on screen but in audio books as well,but also for just being a truly wonderful and caring human being.He has always been one of my favorite actors and this just reminds me of why i love this man soo much!! Wish he was in more stuff these days,but i get to enjoy his narrations of the Dresden Files anytime so at least i have that and my Buffy DVDs to enjoy!! 😈🧛✌🏻
This clip just made me so glad I was in love with James Masters growing up Buffy saved me as a kid. I was horribly bullied, and this show gave me a lot of self confidence. Finding out the Joss made that set like hell broke my heart honestly. Knowing that the majority of the cast are really good people helps.
My dad is an amazing hypnotist who can help people take the edges off of rough memories so they don't affect you in the same way anymore. That could be a good thing for James to look into. I feel so badly for him as he was forced to traumatize himself. Sending big hugs. He seems like a lovely human. ❤
I’m really sorry that he was put in the position where he didn’t feel he had a choice. No one should be put in that position, especially for the purposes of providing entertainment. That wasn’t what he signed up for.
James your acoustic guitar playing and singing voice is gorgeous.... stay well my friend, much love and best wishes from the ex female door supervisor from the fleece in Bristol in the UK.
It came to my mind immediately, once the video started. SO many years ago, but I still remember Buffy in the bathroom crying.... Wow, what a deep forgotten memory. :/
Damn. This made me cry as much as that scene did. I knew he could not have enjoyed doing that. I hated it so much. I have so much more respect for him now that I have heard his side.
To me scenes like these, or the episode in which Buffy’s mom dies are extremely important, and mirrored my life at the time. I grew up with Buffy, and, as sad as it might seem, this series helped more at certain times than any book, because of the human experiences described. As shocking as it might be, I would not change that scene which is, to me, so important, and I imagine other people can relate.
4:56 The irony is James was having this reaction - doing something that was against his will, performing a scene with Sarah where she is fighting something against Her will.
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
And to those who don't know.
Since then, he has it IN HIS CONTRACT that he will NEVER do any of those scenes ever again.
Lesson learned.
I can understand. But that scene, it started a conversation that changed attitudes GLOBALLY. The amount of good that scene ended up doing can not be overstated.
@ - totally agree. I hope he’s seen the good it’s done … creepily timed non consent not withstanding.
@@coreytaylor3633I didn’t realize that. Is there any way to look that up?
So happy to hear he has that in his contract now! Good for him!!!
*"Having to do that to Sarah,"*
The emotion when he says her name. She really is his friend. And it hurt him to do that. You're a good man James. Makes me respect you so much. And respect for being so open and talking about this.
I think that's what amplifies the "horror", for lack of a better term ATM (still haven't had morning coffee). He didn't just try and dissociate by saying "her" to put distance while telling the story. For many, it was a scene in a show, but for him it was probably about as real as it can get without being "Real", if that makes sense.
I can't watch scenes like that either. Too many bad - well I was going to say memories, but my brain has decided to keep all those memories locked up in a vault for my protection - Let's just say like James, I too want to smash the TV when scenes like that play out.
Kudos to him for getting something good out of it (therapy), but for having the agency to make sure he is never put in a situation to do a scene like that again. No one should have to be made to endure trauma to make entertainment , I don't care what actors or artists say.
Thank you, James Masters. This is so cathartic to hear him hate this scene as much as we all did. Its so sad this has affected him so badly, I'm sure Michelle Geller likewise must have hated doing that scene too.
It, unfortunately, was necessary to get Spike to realize he may well have had his way and could not trust himself without the soul, the " governor", the conscience AGAINST that, so to get him on his quest for his soul.
And for Buffy, finding about this, to realize that he really loves her.
As an author there's infinite other ways to get there without harming the actors. I actually got triggered so badly I avoided his career. Friend send me this and I am going to revisit things because I feel safer knowing the root of the actual problems is not in the actor choosing the parts to go for in this case. Subtext here is eff Joss Whedon
@@chronicallykat4920 Same. I had lived through something very similar and much more traumatic about a year before I saw that episode of Buffy and it made me stop watching Buffy for a long time and made me avoid anything with Marsters for years. It took a really really long time to be able to be able to allow myself to get back into the fandom and I still don't love it as much as I used to before that.
@@chronicallykat4920absolutely agree with you
@@chronicallykat4920 Fuck Whedon and the writers. Let's not forget that the concept was created by the writers and signed off by Whedon. Also as a writer, there are so many ways they could have done it that would have been more impactful to the story and not trauma damaged the actors.
My favorite scene of Spike is actually from Angel where he’s on top of a building watching Angel do his vigilante thing and Spike is narrating the scene with all the requisite voices. He was a priceless gem! Absolutely hilarious!
I like the little puppet man, and the meeting with the beer in the briefcase..
I watched Angel because it happened to be airing reruns and caught my eye, but that wasn't the case with Buffy at the time. That scene is the only reason I went out of my way to watch Buffy.
I always like Spike more on Angel honestly. It allowed both the goofiest and deeper thoughtful parts of his character to be explored more. On Buffy he was always defined by his relationship/obsession, whatever it was at the time, to the Slayer.
Yes, yes! One of my favourites.
Spike has the best sassy lines, so quotable. “It’s a big rock! I can’t wait to tell all of my friends, they don’t have a rock this big!” 😂
I highly doubt James Marsters will ever see this, but I just wanted to say that of all the things he’s known and remembered for, this scene is thankfully nowhere near the top of the list. He’s given us so many fantastic moments on-screen, and they will always come to mind before this one.
Agreed. I feel bad for him. He was contractually obligated to do an SA scene that was a sort of assault on him since he could not say no and had to physically act out something traumatic.
Beautifully said. I'm glad he became more than just a one and done villain and they expanded his character. James was brilliant.
Spike is my all time favorite. James made him iconic. I literally just watched Buffy with my friend and it was their first time watching Buffy. So I figured I’d be kind and warn them of the SA scene beforehand. They loved spike as well and dreaded watching that. But after they watched that they said “that’s unfortunate that they felt they had to put that in, however I still love spike.” James made him that endearing truly a gem.
I think many of us who do remember this scene are also very aware of how he feels about it. And to hear a man say "I hated even pretending to commit SA, it was awful and I needed therapy because I recognize what a terrible thing it is to do" can be quite powerful.
@@pollyrg97 That’s also very true. James Marsters has a well-deserved respect among fans because of things like this (and just generally being a good guy). I don’t think there are many people (if any) who would confuse him with Spike in terms of his moral compass!
Like many have said, I was completely shocked to find out he wasn't British. He not only had the voice down cold, but the lingo, the references and personality were totally convincing. Mad respect to the man...
He's a really good actor, for sure. Though his accent wasn't great initially, it got better throughout the series.
Anthony Head’s accent in relation to life is similar to what spikes was and helped James Masters with it. But a lot of brits were surprised with how good it was, not because it was spot on from day one, but because he sounded like a posh bloke trying to sound common.
Nah,
He really didnt.
As for most of the other accents on this show, he sounded utterly ridiculous.
@@Bow-to-the-absurd wait, you think that most of the accents of the show sounded ridiculous? You do know that they were Americans speaking with an American accent, you know, their own accent.
He had me so convinced that the first time I heard him act with an American accent ( I don't even remember what it was, ) I thought his "accent" sounded so fake.
The unintentional parallel of him being unable to say 'no' to performing a SA scene is definitely a devastating part of the situation.
Wow, he looks amazing for 62. What a genuinely great guy he is. Wish he was in more movies and TV shows. Very underrated actor.
he's 62??
@@purefoldnz3070 Yep, he was born in 1962.
Excuse me what?????
Wait what? I thought he was in like his early to mid 20's when he started on Buffy which was 97 but in his mid 30's? That's good genes right there
You should listen to the Dresden Files audiobooks then, he's the reader!
He's a good man and he understands how this kind of scene works psychologically on female viewers. That kind of empathy works wonders!
*also on male and nb viewers. In fact everyone who has empathy and/or had traumatic experiences.
non maga male viewers hated the scene also !
@@SunshineRiot Stop with the whataboutism.
This scene was and still is hard to watch, but to borrow a line from Angel, it bothered him so much because he's a good man.
As horrible as that scene was, I always viewed it as Spike FINALLY hitting bottom. SOMETHING had to push for redemption. As horrible as this was, it was the catalyst to bring him to another level. I don't think there was really anywhere else to go with Spike. He had no soul...
I felt the same way when I saw it.
I agree. As much as I hated watching this scene (while my abusive father was in the same room).... it really did make the pain and regret Spike had with a soul hit as so much truer than if he hadn't done his worst betrayal. Those days where Spike was barely sane and in pure hell felt like James screaming. As a viewer and fan, this felt like redemption for both character and actor.
I just wish he didn't have to go through this for the sake of a TV show, this kind of trauma is never worth someone else's enjoyment. I'm sorry James. You deserve so much love.
Honestly i didnt even consider that as his worst scene. Theres worse scenes between him and buffy in this show.
Nah. It felt like they did it for that reason - to give him a motivator - but I think he could have done it anyway. They played it that he loved her that much by this point, that with all Spike's sensitivity with Drusilla and Buffy and Dawn, it still felt massively out of character. He's deeply intellectual; I genuinely think some logic like 'if I get a soul I might be able to be a man she would love' could be enough for Spike without this.
If people felt like that really wouldn't work, they still could have come up with something more character-consistent. The fact that he really (and they both, if I recall correctly) didn't want to do it and the writers/showrunners DGAF is really depressing - surely they know their characters well enough by now that they could have had ideas about a better path. He was evil BUT he loved her, so 🤷♀
I appreciate how James felt about this scene, his concern for its potential harm to Sarah, and noticing its deep impact on his mental and physical health. I hope more men feel visceral repulsion to violence of this type so we can eliminate it, on-screen and off.
I can say, at least, with certainty: He's not alone in this.
Some guys, they act like they could cheerfully ignore a woman's right to agency as long as they don't get caught, and in many cases they probably would. It's dangerous to say "Oh he probably doesn't really mean that." Because that is yet to be seen.
But equally, the opposite exists: A man who will clearly and sincerely state, "I don't want this if you don't want it too."
Aggressive, assertive guys can be charming in a way, I suppose... but it's important to remember that some of them are that way because they do not _care_ about other people. James is clearly someone who cares, and there are more like him... you just have to find them, and give them a chance; not a ton of leeway to misbehave, just a chance to show they're worth knowing.
Such a different man from Joss Whedon
Totally agree. There is no place for this type of violence on TV or film. Game of thrones was particularly abhorrent and affected me deeply.
and women need to feel visceral repulsion to thugs and false accusations
@@chadvader974 For me it's okay if it's needed for the plot. I get angry at those kind of scenes but that's the point of storytelling. It's suppposed to make you feel things, good and bad.
Impressed with James’ level of sensitivity and humanity. He seems like a really good person.
To be fair....Spike WAS a demon without a soul.
And his redemption is.....the best ever put to screen.
Thank you Marsters
@@ladyethyme Spike was a vampire, not a demon
@@dawnmuse6481That’s the same thing. Just like there’s many different sub categories of demons on the show, vampires are one of them. Did you really think it wasn’t? Spike has even called himself a demon before.
@@dawnmuse6481 it's explained several times in the show that a vampire is a dead body being inhabited by a demon that basically copies the original person's personality.
When someone like Angel gets their soul back, it can override the demonic influence but the demon is always in the there biding time.
@@dawnmuse6481 someone literally didn't watch the show.
@@VanDavis Have a look at The Metaphysics of Buffyverse Souls by FiveByFiveTakes. She does a fantastic job of analyzing what's actually going on -- it's not as simple as "demon inhabiting a human body" :)
Spike was the one the best characters in Buffy and Angel. His had the best character arc of anyone on the show.
I was a HUGE Spike stan when I was a teen but I always found his arc to be a mixed bag. Season 2-3 Spike was an awesome character. As was Spike on Angel. But I was not a fan of the rest of his arc and the Buffy x Spike stuff always especially bothered me. I thought it greatly hurt both characters and was frankly just kind of a ploy to reignite the hype that Buffy x Angel had. Though I think it hurt Buffy more then Spike imo. I can at least understand why Spike would have interest in Buffy(because he's a dude and she was played by SMG in her prime years so there was THAT) but Buffy even entertaining the notion of getting with Spike let alone actually doing it was mind numbing and maddening. /endrant
@@BrandonHeat243I agree on all of that concerning Spike. I get that her motivation is due to feeling numb and depressed after being (quite literally) (SPOILERS)....
dragged out of Heaven but it felt kinda cheap and not true to the character. Spiciness for the sake of it.
@@mardroidmk1393 Yeah, I can understand Buffy having mental health issues in season 6 and they should have done SOMETHING with that. But getting with Spike was an affront to the goodness that the character always had. Spike wasn't Angel. Angel was a good soul whose body got taken over by a monster. Spike WAS the monster. It's easy to forget because of how charming Spike/James is in the show but he was a BAD dude and not just in the sexy way. It's hard to know how many people Spike took out in his life but given his age it had to be thousands. Hooking up with someone like that is just completely inexcusable regardless of depression or anhedonia or whatever.
@BrandonHeat243 Angel, when he was human Liam, was an a-hole. He stole from his family and abused women. Instead of working, he spent his time as a drunkard. That was why he was turned into a vampire by Darla. She liked the bad boy he was and knew he'd be worse without a pesky soul.
Spike helped stop Angelus from killing the world, before he had a chip in his brain. The chip stopped him from hurting humans. When he discovered he could hurt demons and vamps with impunity, he teamed up with the Scoobies. Then, he got to know Buffy as a person. Not just as the Slayer, and feel in love. As the human Liam, he was always a lovesick poet and something of a momma's boy. Losing his soul made him tougher and meaner, but that didn't totally erase Liam.
Spike had the best character arc in the show. He had more soul than Angel, even before Spike got his soul back.
He literally saved season 4 and was the best character in Angel by a country mile
I really appreciate that James was so repulsed by the idea of committing sexual violence that even pretending to do it was traumatic to accomplish, we need all men to feel this sort of revulsion and to say so out loud so other men hear. I’m so impressed with his empathy for the fact that we (the viewers, mostly women and girls) would be watching and empathizing with Buffy and experiencing that scene as the victim.
I mean those crimes are horrible but would those unable to fake that performance still be able to act out a murder scene for instance? Different yes but objectively the scene could be much worse even without a sexual aspect & no one would blink an eye.
@@orphanedhanyou “those crimes are horrible but-“ “the scene could be much worse” You can just stop right there with those unnecessary comparisons to purposefully undermine the severity of sexual violence. First of all, bad things don’t have to be objectively *the worst things* to be “bad enough.” Secondly it’s just gross to downplay the seriousness or severity of sexual violence by trying to come up with something worse. You have demonstrated why men with cameras on them need to be displaying revulsion for sexual violence, because your “it could be worse” thinking is the thinking we need to destroy.
@@orphanedhanyou Murder isn't "much worse" than sexual violence, especially not when depicted in media. When you murder someone, they are dead. Sexual assault victims have to live with what happened to them for the rest of their lives. It comes back to them in vivid flashbacks at the worst possible times. It leads to developing mental health disorders that plague your life. Anything can set them off. With other trauma it's possible to minimise the triggers, with sexual violence it's really not. Worse those kinds of depictions stick with an audience. I know a lot of people who can watch gruesome murder scenes because they don't feel real because the people watching have no baseline, but I don't know many who can watch actual depictions of rape and sexual assault because the visceral feedback is so much more intense.
@HiSummerWasHere You can just stop right there with your just stop right theres.
We all do feel that way. There’s a minority of psychopaths out there that don’t and we don’t associate with them. These scenes are always difficult to watch
This is why sexual/sensitivty coordinators NEED to be on all sets. No one should be put into this situation at any work place and people deserve to have access to supports that allows them safety and EVERY ability to say no.
Well, given what we've found out about how Joss Whedon conducted himself on set at that time, it's not surprising that something like that was ignored.
Those coordinators aren't going to do much when powerful men creating those movies can easily silence them.
@@saltycat662 Then... make it illegal for those 'powerful' men to silence their coordinators?
Or I suppose we could give up and do nothing some more. How's that workin' for ya, in literally any situation?
@@saltycat662fortunately, the attention given to #metoo and #consent has resulted in contracts being composed to prevent actors from being obligated to depict acts of sexual abuse against their will. An intimacy coordinator can negotiate a compromise that is sensitive to the actor’s needs, while honoring artistic vision of the director and/or writer.
Obviously I'm not a professional but since there's are many different kinds of actors & ways they "get into" a role (ex: not everyone is method), getting so lost you have to go curl into a fetal position when it's fake is hard to understand.
That scene is one that stayed with me. I think it really showed that it can happen to anyone. It could be done by someone that loves you. That no matter how strong you are, it's something that can make you react in unknown ways. I thought it was a raw, powerful and important moment.
I, absolutely, agree. Well said!
On top of all that, I also think that scene was a pivotal moment for the character of Spike within the show, itself. It demonstrated in a real visceral way why the relationship between him and Buffy (at that moment) was not a good/healthy thing, despite the fact that he truly loved her. Even though Spike loved Buffy, a soulless Spike was always going to be incapable of fully controlling his own wants/desires or really recognizing where the ethical/moral lines are. Just like any addict (or anyone needing severe psychological help), Spike really needed to do something that would scare himself before he could make the commitment to get better. Attacking Buffy in such a severely intimate way was something he wouldn't be able to forgive himself for and nothing less would have ever pushed that character to fight for his soul ('cause he was always in denial that him being "evil" was a problem until that exact moment).
A couple years before the episode a couple I knew broke up with mutual allegations of abuse. A lot of people in the friend circle didn't believe it because she was a very dangerous person -- ex-sniper, multiple martial arts belts, etc. -- and trying to convince people that it's different when emotions are involved was such a mess. Really opened my eyes to how much misinformation there was on the subject. If people don't believe a longtime friend, why would they listen to a stranger.
A simultaneously important and difficult scene. It's a double edged sword, in that, while it's a powerful teaching moment of sorts, and an important rock bottom moment for the character, it can also be a triggering one, that may force viewers to unexpectedly relive trauma. Because of that scene in particular, along with some other difficult moments, I have to temper recommending the show with a warning. It's a heavy show at times, and I appreciate it for that as I have found it helpful, but it's definitely too heavy for some.
@@Swenglishthis episode is *exactly* why I never recommend this series. Also bc of Joss-- such a massive wake up and disappointment after everything. I have debated even watching the series a second time bc it was so traumatic and triggering.
I honestly saw it as the danger of using someone who you know is unstable for sex. Buffy assumed Spike had no feelings, so she could use and dismiss him at will with no consequence.
So while a rough scene. Buffy is realizing she has some culpability, and Spike realizes he's missing something important (his soul).
James is SUCH a good guy. More men should learn to feel comfortable owning their emotions like this, the world would be a better place for everyone.
This is a very real adult moment. Thanks for sharing the dialogue.
That scene was profound. I watched Buffy with my teenager. This opened the door to some crucial conversations that both drew us closer and also helped my child understand the inherent dangers involved in relationships.
Thank you for that.
I watched it AS a teenager and the change in tone about consent afterwards was like a tsunami. it sucks that it was truamatic for him, becasue the empact it had on the world was wonderful.
as someone who has sexual trauma
to see an actor react this way to a sexual assault scene gives me relief
knowing that there are people out there that are disturbed by sexual violence and so on
it also makes me wonder if James has any sexual trauma himself
he's such a good man, God Bless him
As someone with the same: It wasn't just the SA that was horrendous to watch. The accompanying dialogue from that scene is DARK. Like traumatizing. Blech
I remember meeting James and Anthony Stewart Head many years ago at the Melbourne BuffyCon I asked a question about creative outlets (in the arts) and James replied no creativity can exist anywhere in any activity, think about it, even gardening isn’t one of the arts but everything it encompasses is the art of creation. That’s a lesson I’ve shared with so many people who’ve needed to hear it almost 2 decades later. Very wise man indeed
I love that so much! And it's so true!!
My wife got to meet him last year, she was very happy, we then saw him in an acoustic music set. He was a lot of fun.
I'm sure someone has already said this but Spike didn't have a soul when this happened. A lot of the good he did was without a soul. He made the choice to be one of the good guys. The fact that this is the moment that propelled him to get his soul back seems to be overlooked. Spike was one of the best and most complex characters in the Buffyverse.
That's the thing: The show doesn't really have a good handle on what being "soulless" actually means. They laid out the fact that Spike had no soul, and asserted that he also had no conscience, and yet *while* he was soulless and without conscience, he cared for Buffy, protected Dawn, loved Joyce. Things that a soulless Angel could not have done.
Then they turn around and make Spike do a thing that tons of souled humans have done -- as if that somehow proves he needs a soul to prevent him going that far? What the hell? And this is in the *same* season where Buffy already sexually assaulted Spike (when she was invisible and he'd clearly told her to stop, to leave, to stop playing with him) -- *that* gets played for a laugh. The same season where she'd pretty much trained him that "no" does not, in fact, mean "no" -- and if we're gonna stick with "he doesn't have a conscience" then we can't fault him for failing to know better, now can we?
Again, plenty of humans with perfectly good souls have ignored their victims saying "no." Getting a soul doesn't solve that. And even if we take that scene as written, his setup is far less damning than most would be. (You're absolutely right that he's a complex character, and in that scene there's a lot of extenuating circumstances to factor in.)
BtVS managed to do incredible things with analogies to real-world issues, but occasionally it dropped the ball HARD. Magical addiction and "I wouldn't assault her if I only had a soul" are two of the big ones.
Guy kills it narrating the Dresden files
Does he do the books or something?
@@CorbCorbin he narrates the audiobooks
YES
100%
As someone who never watched Buffy and (as far as I know) first heard Marsters as Dresden, he is sooo fucking cool as that character.
He is Harry Dresden to me!
So many Buffy scenes and episodes are seared into my memory. You can't say that for many shows.
He's maybe a better Guy than I thought, and I already liked him. Powerful video.
The "Buffy scene in the bathroom" affected me strongly, gave me an understanding that even if we think we could never do a thing that on a bad enough day we can be pushed farther than we thought we could.
And I have ever since really thought about my actions in frustration and anger, I think this scene may have saved me and others from things we never wanted to do or be a part of, Thanks to that writer and James for putting this horrible(non-derogatory) scene out there.
I have great respect for James for being so open about his true feelings of his experience. True human compassion for emotion of acting that was against his valued beliefs.
From Buffy to Torchwood, JM never disappoints. I'm so sorry to hear he went through this. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang---a shout back to the good old days, Captain Hart.
I’ve loved this actor, didn’t realize the extent of what you went through… my love and blessings to you, friend.
Spike is my favourite character. He had me at 'I did it my way'. Best scene ever and I'm older than the average viewer. Thank you James. Well done.
I'm near James' age and I agree with you.
This is one of the most insanely insightful takes I’ve ever heard. This guy rocks.
I remember that scene in the episode! It was a mental shift for me for both of characters. It adds realism to a show about fantasy. Sarah and James did a wonderful job with it, so it paid off! I'm sorry he had aftermath issues on this!
The world would be a much better place if every man thought and felt the same as James. Just when I thought I couldn’t love him more ❤
The emotional toll from one of the strongest episodes. It had a lasting impact! Always going to love his acting and the character he literally brought to life!!!!
I love James Marsters for his voice acting in the audiobook of the Dresden Files! He does an amazing job and you can really tell he puts his heart into it.
I’ve nothing but respect for you James! Absolute RESPECT from a big fan & British Army veteran, you got me through some of my worst years when could escape into your world. THANK YOU 🫡
I always thought that Buffy's relationship with Spike was way more interesting than her whole 'love of her life' romance with Angel. None of Buffy's relationships were what you'd call healthy, but Spike was broken from the start and was just brutally honest about it. He didn't care if he was pathetic because he literally had nowhere else to go and as long as he was in the slayer's orbit, it oddly protected him from other nasty monsters that might have a beef with him. He had the most interesting redemption arc ever, once he realised he'd have to get a soul somehow for Buffy or any of her human pals to take him seriously. And then he got to rub it in Angel's face that he wasn't the only vampire with a soul anymore. Heck, Angel and Spike's relationship in Angel's spinoff was more interesting than Buffy and Angel, and they mostly squabbled over dumb things as a way to either process or avoid the trauma they'd inflicted on each other for decades.
"You're a wee little puppet man!!" Will never NOT be funny LOL
@@aphelion4616that line gets me every time I think of it lol Thank you for the reminder 😂
The show was able to trivialize killing with hundreds of deaths, but a single scene like this can take such a toll.
The closest scene in comparison for me is from Passion.
Hello everyone. Binge watched Buffy for the first time from start to finish over the last few months and I have to admit that the scene in question did set me back a lot in my liking of Spike and I felt it did stall his redemption journey he was on in my eyes. But I do think that it's interesting how Spike's soul being restored was his choice after such a horrific deed where as Angel's was a punishment for his misdeeds and probably would never have seeked to restore his soul willingly.
It's a fantastic show. It's nice to know there are people still experiencing it for the first time. That scene is my only issue with it.
The contrast between Spike and the other vampires is fascinating. Spike appears to love even as a vampire. Then you have Angelus, who at first glance seems so different to Angel but is likely just him striped of a conscience. Angel's soul is a curse to him. I also wonder why he didn't seek to get his soul fitted permanently.
@@midnightblackroses I think, given how the writing was, it is subtle hint about how Vampirism works in general. Angel's human self(Liam) was a selfish lout, IIRC. being a vampire just removed any in inhibitions towards that restrained said selfishness.
Drusilla was mentaly broken before her turning, so her Vampire Self was similarly broken but more murderous.
Harmony was blonde bimbo who, while maybe vain/self-centered, never seemed to mean genuine harm to anyone resulting in her Vampire self being very inadequate at perpetuating evil...
Spike was a hopeless romantic and terrible poet, so even without his "soul" he still retained a lot of affection and genuine concern for others even after his turning. IIRC he turned his mother so she wouldnt be sick and frail anymore and... well the result horrified Vampire-Spike...
@@midnightblackroses That's what bothered me about Angel not having a 'new' soul. There was a massive opportunity in Season 4 when Willow had to come back to re-ensouled him once more, and she was more powerful than she used to be when she restored his soul the first time, and Willow did it not long before Buffy grand finale when she went all glowing and all white, like a good all powerful witch. Surely she WOULD know or try to figure out on how to cleanse Angel's soul from the curse? And Angel had this prophecy to be a human, that was quickly forgotten as well. I also felt like this was missed opportunity to add Alyson to Angel cast after Buffy ended for Season 5, so apparently Alyson wasn't happy that Buffy ended cus that mean she'd be out of work for a bit, cus it was sudden (When SMG decided it was time to stop cus she was exhausted and overworked), so why did Joss not offer her to go to Angel the Series for Season 5, we would have see a friendship blossom between Willow and Fred, and Willow would be such an interesting addition to Angel cast, then they could have done a storyline where Willow can work with unlimited resources at Wolfram & Hart, to try to figure out if there's a way to remove the curse from Angel's soul. That was a missed opportunity.
It's crazy how late intimacy coordinators became a thing. I'm so glad he talks about this openly.
It is pretty ironic that he was the one being "forced" to do something against his will.
they were, the contracts in Buffy were all like that. SMG mentioned other scene she couldn't refuse either and she hated it
too.
I know the actors had a big problem with this scene and some viewers, but I thought it was a perfect ending for everything that entailed in the Buffy/Spike sexual relationship. It also led to my personal favorite ever scene in the following season after Spike gets his soul back and he breaks down in the church in front of Buffy. "Can we rest now?" still brings a tear to my eye even today when I watch it, but back to my train of thought. If you go back to a BtVS Angel episode where he allows a demon to possess him knowing that the Vampire Demon that already inhabited his body (which was separate from Angel) has been waiting decades for a good fight. So too would the Vampire Demon that is in Spike twist and warp the already weird relationship and indeed his feelings for Buffy into what eventually happened. I know, especially after having worked over a decade on film sets watching actors' performances, that the nature of their craft can lead to exactly what happened to Marsters, so I fully respect him and that he had a super difficult time dealing with it. I just can separate an amazing story line, an amazing performance, and at the same time respect the hardship it takes to deliver such performance.
I'm so glad Marsters was able to take time out during filming and then later get therapy cause he is a gem in the world of acting!!
Can we rest now...yep, I agree it's heart breaking 💔
Buffy deserved much more awards, to this day it holds up. The acting by Sarah alone is just phenomenal and you see her come into her own while the seasons went on. She always made her cries seem real it really stood out to me and made her not feel like a badass but just a normal young woman facing struggle.
Season 6 is such an underrated gem. The acting is so fucking good, Seeing Red is an insanely dark episode but I can't help but like it, James Marsters clearly hated doing what he did but he did it so well and Adam Busch as Warren is the best and my favourite villain because he could be any of us. He's just a human.
Well this was the thing that made Spike, his character, go and get his soul so he regretted it instantly.
Which can't be said about many other men.
So imagine a soulless vampire being better than many real men out there.
James is amazing. I really believed his instant HORROR and his regret later when he talked about it in the series.
Amazing amazing actor!
I totally loved his British accent and it floored me to find out he wasn’t. I love David Boreanaz but I was a fan Spike. I loved his character on Buffy the Vampire Slayer show. I’m a big paranormal fan so I still love the show and Angel too.
That scene hurt me so much. I grew up watching buffy and I'm still a fan. It wasn't fair to spike as a character. I love spike and I'm forever grateful for James bringing him to life.
It wasnt fair to the demon Spike? Perhaps it wasn't fair to William, but that's why the scene and his redemption is so important.
Thank you for caring, and for telling everyone what happened. I am glad you got help.
While that story element was dark, it led to Spike seeking a way to connect in a more 'human' manner - ultimately to Spike regaining his soul; To seeking redemption for actions. Sometimes a character has to hit rock bottom in order to rise higher than before, which is very entertaining to watch. I enjoyed the scene because I recognized it for what it was. Compelling fiction.
I'd agree if he hadn't already shown every possible sign of having a soul. Heck, at times he was the most compassionate and decent of them all. Pre-soul, and pre-attempted rape scene.
@@monmothma3358I think that’s why it had to happen. Yeah most of the time he’s able to pass as ensouled, but he’s not. He has to have this scene to realise he’s not ok without his soul, that he’s not capable of always being good once the leash of his chip is removed. Yeah he’s a romantic at heart, and his ideas of love carry through, some say heighten, to his vampire state. But he only tends to play nice with others because the chip punishes him if he doesn’t, and being helpful is beneficial to his survival in this neutered state. The only times he’s truly selfless fall under the grand idea of love he has. Then once he realises his chip doesn’t work on Buffy, it’s all about Spike getting what Spike wants. Great whilst Buffy agrees, terrible when she doesn’t.
This compelling fiction can exsist if only it doesn't ruin the rest dynamic. Because the story changed after that for sure and not always for the good when you watch it for the first time. It still had that negative trail, the aftershock affect. They had only one season to fix it and introduce 'a new character' after he got the soul. And there wasn't enough time including not enought time for his story with Buffy. And eventually they returned to smth very similar to what Spike was from the end of s5 till second part of s6 period. You can't say that it was completely new character. They still chose Spike not some other new guy, so what was the freaking point of going that far and still choosing him.
And I also want to point out the fact that they write RA for 2 characters knowing that right after that, the very next season they will be writing their relationship adding romantic plotline. No comment here.
@@Marwolaeth01maybe if it wasn’t an unforgivable act especially when they were still love interests after. This wasn’t a rock bottom this is far beyond that. If they had someone controlling him it would have made loads more sense.
@@Ambereigh but that’s the point. There was no one “controlling” him. He had no soul, and he may have thought he knew how to be good, but he tried to do something horrific and had no idea how bad it was until afterwards when he saw the outcome. I believe ensouled Spike would never do that. Everyone keeps viewing Spike’s character from when he got the chip and fell for Buffy, they never seem to remember him in season 2 when he was a full vampire, or the fact he killed two Slayers in his murderous past. I can’t see ensouled Spike doing those things. Perhaps everyone expected him to turn into William, the wimpy poet version of himself, but Angelus didn’t turn into Liam, he became a guilt ridden Angel. Angelus with a soul.
Just when I thought I couldn't love Mr Marsden more. An actor with introspection and conscience.
The fact that he was that VISIBLY TORMENTED while filming that scene and they still made him do it is insane.
I doubt you will ever see this. James, I know you were worried that as the viewer, it would make us feel powerless, but it helped me when I was going through a hard time. Getting to be buffy in that moment at the end of the scene when she stops him. It's like I could, and that felt healing. ❤ Thank you for everything and I am sorry that you had to go through that.
It's been years and James is still one of the coolest people I've ever met.
It was the one scene that reminded me that Spike, because he was a Vampire with insatiable lust, was more than capable of causing great harm.
Which he didn't do and that was without a soul - take that, sanctimonious Angel. Angel got on my nerves lol. Love Spike.
Buffy had also used Spike. I don't think the scene was just about lust. He had been emotionally invested in the relationship and she had been using him. He's trying to force love out of her and realizes he can't do that by forcing sex on her...that forcing sex is not the love he craves.
@@TheChristianPsychopath Lust involves more than the actual sex act. Lust is a dangerous craving, an uncontrollable desperation needing to be filled. As a vampire and a demon, he doesn’t have the conscience or soul necessary to prevent causing pain to the victim of his lusts. His “conscience” is learned or remembered behavior for when he was human and a want to be poet. Being human or worthy of a human’s love was also something Spike lusted for.
He couldn't say no because he was under contract. Take the contract out of it and that's the core of SA. You try and try to be heard and respected but there aren't any no-s.
Shut up
100%
If you sign a contract to portray a character, then you have ok'd everything that the character is written to do and say.
Its a job. To equate SA on film with SA in real life is ridiculous.
@@FuzzyFoot58 I disagree but that's ok, I don't know your journey, just like you don't know mine or where these opinions are based.
@@rynnlemieux5339 I was merely stating objective facts.
James is an amazing actor. He is always the standout in everything he does.
Aww what a nice guy. I haven’t watched Buffy but mad respect to this actor
This is my favorite show of all time and I loved james as an actor. Sad he never did any other big roles.
James Marsters is one of the men that seems to be an Actual Good Person
One of the billions?
@@orphanedhanyou no
Listening to this really made me stop and think. We watch movies and shows without considering the repercussions on the actors. James Marsters gave us so many wonderful memorable moments on Buffy, and I hope that he finds peace in knowing that we remember him for the wonderful scenes.
Joss Whedon wanting the writers to expose and display their most terrifying, embarassing moments and using it for fodder for a tv show, then coercing actors to do it against their will or they will lose their jobs and likely get blacklisted, isn't a big surprise to me.
🤮
Whedon didn’t even write this episode. Plus, that was the whole theme of the show in the first place - high school equals hell. Until he brought on more writers, most of those experiences came from his own life.
While it seems extreme to "make" actors go through this, this is actually what leads actors to be good at what they do. Anyone who's ever been to an acting coach has experienced this. They have to be willing to put themselves in the shoes of their character (no matter how distasteful the subject matter) or they cannot deliver the emotion behind the scene...viewers wouldn't buy a half-a*ed attempt.
@@ArtVandelayLovesPretzels no one needs a rape scene of any sort, to grasp that government high school is terrible. Only predators would want to see that.
@@VioletPersuasion yeah, that’s why people usually regard the scene as in bad taste. Probably the most hated scene in the entire seven seasons.
Whedon was working on Angel and writing Dollhouse and Serenity by this point. He had very little to do with this episode.
That's any job though? You are hired to do x & therefore either you will or you won't. Your boss could say we need to start doing y and you get to say yes or no. Every choice has consequences.
What a nightmare. All you want is to get away, but you're a dedicated actor, so instead you make it feel real.
He's said before that this scene hurt him, but I didn't know exactly how much. Tbh, as a therapist myself, hearing about his intense reactions to sexual predation scenes.. I think he's lived through something. And the Buffy scene reminded him of those things.
He's a decent man too, that is clear in the interviews I've seen at least. It's possible someone very close to him went through something. My first love was abused by her own father and any time I see something approaching sexual assault in media I get an urge to, let's just say, "make abusers physically uncomfortable". I can't imagine acting out something like that without wanting to throw up even if it's just acting. If something happened to him personally then he's got balls of steel to be able to do a scene like that.
@@buckaroobonsaitree7488 Definitely decent, and so thoughtful, I'm a huge fan of his. Good point that maybe it wasn't him personally, but someone close. I'm just pretty sure _something_ happened. In another interview he said he grew up in a dysfunctional family.
Sorry about your love, I hope she managed to build a good life despite it. It can have such big consequences.
He was a sex worker for a while, so I'm quite sure he did. He talked about it a bit in other interviews.
@@TheChristianPsychopath He was?! Do you have a source for that, like one of the interviews you mention?
If that's true, it's even more impressive that he managed to put it behind him and get so far as as he did as an actor.
@@monmothma3358 He talked about it at DragonCon several years ago. It's something I heard in person, not sure if it's in text anywhere. If I remember correctly, it was close to the time he was at Julliard, and he has some very negative feelings about Julliard.
Thank you for sharing that story. Sounds like a nightmare.
I was sorta there when you were going through that in the form of a regular at all your cons and Ghost of the Robot shows for 2 years during that time. I saw you suffering and you told us why at one con (I think it was shoreleave). I was so sorry then and I’m so sorry now what you had to go through in that episode, but really glad you shared the good that came out of it. Hope your life is going happy and well now.
Spike was a fantastic character well played by James Marsters 💯💯👍👍
I can't believe the irony of James Marsters being forced against his will into performing a sexual scene in which Spike is forcing Buffy, against her will, into a sexual situation.
S'alright, JM. We remember the porch scene from "Fool For Love" more than... *that* scene. Spike was such a great character. Thanks for that.
That was one scene that I could never watch again, and the first time was when it was brand new so there was no way to be warned. I always had a feeling that James would have been opposed to it based on previous interviews, but never considered this. Huge love for the therapist that helped him get through it, and everyone else that comforted him during filming. And of course for James for sharing this, letting us know we weren't alone.
Big fan of Buffy. This scene really left a mark in me. Happy to hear his process because i love his work as Spike and yes that season (6 i think) was on an other level and triggered me. Thanks for sharing that.
James is a truly decent human, so insightful of how fans will have felt that scene. Poor guy. That was not Spike.
What made the scene worse was that they actually made Buffy injured & weak. Hence, it didn't play out like a superpowered character "easily" defending herself. It played out like a scared & helpless person desperately fighting & pleading for the ordeal to stop. I doubt that it would've been portrayed the same way if it's Drusilla forcing herself on Angel.
The host making the connection that James was being forced against his will to do a scene where he's forcing someone against their will -- spot on.
He was an amazing character and a fab actor. Buffy was my life when I was a teen. What a deep response to this scene. Wow. What an amazing guy and how awful to have had to go through this.
Spike was my favourite Buffy character
i already knew what the scene was when i saw the thumbnail, damn, thats one of the harshest to watch in the serie, great acting, i was watching buffy 5 minutes ago, the episode of Spike vs Principle Woods
about Spike past and his mother, great episode, great acting. loved it
spike is so iconic
One of my favorite characters ever & I never felt Spike has malice,he was only confused. Bloody wonderful.🖤
Go "Ghost in the Machine" 💘
I remember this moment vividly and it was such a jarring and out of character moment for Spike.
I am so sad that they forced him to do a scene like this that put him in therapy. It's lovely that Spike and Lex Luthor are talking this over in a nice way.
Great work, mate. Thanks for this.
I want to praise James for not just his incredible acting abilities and his amazing voice work both with accents on screen but in audio books as well,but also for just being a truly wonderful and caring human being.He has always been one of my favorite actors and this just reminds me of why i love this man soo much!! Wish he was in more stuff these days,but i get to enjoy his narrations of the Dresden Files anytime so at least i have that and my Buffy DVDs to enjoy!! 😈🧛✌🏻
This clip just made me so glad I was in love with James Masters growing up Buffy saved me as a kid. I was horribly bullied, and this show gave me a lot of self confidence. Finding out the Joss made that set like hell broke my heart honestly. Knowing that the majority of the cast are really good people helps.
I loved Spike , I actually felt sorry for spike in that scene he loved Buffy.
Love this dude on the Dresden Files audiobooks!
My dad is an amazing hypnotist who can help people take the edges off of rough memories so they don't affect you in the same way anymore. That could be a good thing for James to look into. I feel so badly for him as he was forced to traumatize himself. Sending big hugs. He seems like a lovely human. ❤
I’m really sorry that he was put in the position where he didn’t feel he had a choice. No one should be put in that position, especially for the purposes of providing entertainment. That wasn’t what he signed up for.
James your acoustic guitar playing and singing voice is gorgeous.... stay well my friend, much love and best wishes from the ex female door supervisor from the fleece in Bristol in the UK.
It came to my mind immediately, once the video started. SO many years ago, but I still remember Buffy in the bathroom crying.... Wow, what a deep forgotten memory. :/
He is first and foremost, the voice of Harry Dresden for me. His values here just confirm he was the right choice for the audiobooks!❤
I absolutely love him. Wish he would be in more movies. ❤
you can tell the actor is having the horrors as he's doing the scene.
I will never forget watching that for the first time. So scary that the show went there; I loved Spike and this scene was so upsetting.
Spike was my favorite! I had Spike withdrawal when Buffy ended. I still watch all your interviews!❤
What an incredible perspective.
Damn. This made me cry as much as that scene did. I knew he could not have enjoyed doing that. I hated it so much. I have so much more respect for him now that I have heard his side.
To me scenes like these, or the episode in which Buffy’s mom dies are extremely important, and mirrored my life at the time.
I grew up with Buffy, and, as sad as it might seem, this series helped more at certain times than any book, because of the human experiences described.
As shocking as it might be, I would not change that scene which is, to me, so important, and I imagine other people can relate.
4:56 The irony is James was having this reaction - doing something that was against his will, performing a scene with Sarah where she is fighting something against Her will.
He’s a great actor