What I’ve noticed, many vaporfly lovers weren’t big fans of the vaporfly 3 but they really enjoy the new alphafly, but it’s the reverse for alphafly lovers
Agree, mostly. Ive always been a Vaporfly fan and LOVED the VF3...but also love the AF3 (which I never have before). But at the elite level, I agree with your point.
Ya, the scaling doesn't seem to work well for the Alphafly or the Air Zoom units. I saw a size 13 US pair of Victory 1 track spikes at a Nike outlet store while in the US and it was shocking how different the shoe was from a size 9...
I've been thinking and hoping that at some point Nike will utilize thier Air Zoom strobel or forefoot Air Zoom turbo unit with ZoomX foam for one of their supershoes (i.e. Vaporfly). They can even remove insoles to reduce weight and leave the Zoom Strobel/Zoom Turbo unit exposed right underneath the foot. I genuinely think it'll be fun to run in.
One of the criticism of the Pegasus has always been the feel of the air unit in the shoe for some runners. So this idea could be problematic. However in the AF3 and V2 the Air Zoom units sit directly under the plate, which really smooths out the feel of the air unit and distributed the loads much more evenly. With Nike's more flexible CF plates you still get some feel in them as well. I don't see air coming the the VF platform. I feel like that will remain the foam only platform for sometime. Who knows though. It will be interesting to see.
It’s an interesting idea, but a bigger air zoom unit, on a road shoe, might lead to durability concerns, at least for paying customers (less so for sponsored athletes): you step on glass shards and the shoe become unusable…the bigger the air unit, the more chances you’ll break it.
It cam be solved though, at least mitigated. The AF3 has some interesting engineering in the forefoot to protect the air units, plus the air units themselves have some structure. The Victory 2 doesn't need to worry about such things AND has a spike plate to protect the air unit (something a road shoe can never have)...but I'm confident Nike's engineering can solve the problem.
The midsole will also have to be firmer than ZoomX as it is now in order to be resilient enough at a reduced stack. For example the Streakfly could "bottom out" for me pretty easily when pushing intervals. Whenever a shoe has that bottoms-out feeling, it means a limit has been exceeded and the foam cannot compress as quickly as it had been and therefore there is less energy return as a percentage of the input force is going to be less than if it had not bottomed out. I think that if the shoe is bottoming out then there is a loss of efficiency. The takumi sen 10 lightstrike pro foam is firmer and has a different resiliency curve than zoomX and does not bottom out in that way, but it is also clearly heavier. I hope that designers will be testing the net efficacy of these changes to yield an actual improvement in performance rather than a Cadillac tailfins situation.
I think they get this and are addressing it. The ZoomX in the Peg Plus feels different. Now that I have spent quite a bit of time in it, mostly fast running, I've found it doesn't have that "bottoming out" feeling the Streakfly could have. There isn't really any more foam in the Peg Plus either. ZoomX has definitely changed.
Once again, your knowledge of product design shined in this video. I can't really comment on your predictions because they seemed spot on, as usual. For example, you and I had a brief conversation about the release of the Adios Pro 4. You predicted that Adidas was leveraging the Evo tech towards the masses. You were spot on, and you covered that completely early in this video. Well done, sir. 👏
Once again a wonderful video, with the best of perspectives! Thanks again for amazing content! 🙏 I really appreciate how you go the whole round, brand differentiators, marketing strategies, running tech from both a performance and a durability standpoint. It really shows how complex it is “to hit the nail in the head” for running shoes. But even more so, it inspires and makes a new runner like me massively curious for what the future of Nike running shoes will bring! Swooosh! ☑️👟🏁🙌
It definitely is a complex equation to get right here. Subtle changes, for any brand, make a massive difference in performance and feel. Runners are all very individual as well and our feet really can feel these changes (and that change is drastically different for every runner) so it's a tough spot and engineering problem to solve for...which makes this all so fascinating. Thank you for the kind words on the content! 🤙🏻
I'm only working from what product line managers are saying in the media and reading between the lines based on my product design background and having been in teams that built these types of strategies in the past. Some of ti is clear as day if you listen to them, especially Adidas as of late.
@@SagasuRunning that's what we love about your channel. You dig really much deeper into the insane details of the shoes and explain it really well. No need for action running shots mostly done by famous youtubers. At first it was interesting to watch shoe running videos but then it gets old.
I appreciate that. I would include more running footage but I hate running carry stuff… so, I shoot very little and only when I really need it. We all have our own style, which is interesting I’ve definitely focused on stripping mine WAY down so the message is the focus. Not me or editing. I find story telling much more engaging that way and am glad I’m not alone.
Adidas stomped on your Nike content by starting the PR blitz for Adios Pro 4, Adios 8, and Evo SL shoes. Adios 8 is a low stack and very light shoe like you predicted but I’m not sure it is really a racing shoe. It seems more likely a super foam workout shoe that doesn’t have an intense stiffening agent - a de-tuned Takumi Sen. The Evo SL described on Running Warehouse seems like a Boston reboot which is essentially a higher stack version of the Adios 8 - Lightstrike Pro with a shank. Also not a race shoe but similar-ish to an Endorphin Speed amount of midsole. Adios 8 does have a shank according to Adidas rep on BTIR. He also said that Lightstrike Pro evo is chemically the same as Lightstrike Pro (so TPEE) but with a different manufacturing process without compression molding - the carving from a block of foam process. The top layer of Adios Pro 4 is Lightstrike Pro evo and the bottom layer is Lightstrike Pro which combination he said is more durable. Most of the outsole on these new shoes is cast polyurethane with a Continental rubber toe-off patch. The claim is the polyurethane has almost as good grip characteristics but is significantly lighter than Continental rubber. Adios Pro 4 is a once lighter - just under 200g - so it is now Vaporfly weight.
Ya, hahaha...and all their chosen influencers...🤣 I will have my Adios pro 4/Evo SL/Adios 9 video out int he next day or two. Alot ot cover and ALOT to say now that we have official details. Your take on the Adidas range is aligning to mine, mostly... Also, i caught that line about "chemically the same" and have many thoughts. Stay tuned.
@@SagasuRunningyes it's quite interesting when you notice who is "choosen influencer" of particular brand and take it as is when consuming their content ....
The victory 1 felt as unstable as the alpha fly 2 in a weird comparison. The victory 2 is aggressive and stable. Which i can say about the alpha fly which is great. But you’re right, reducing materials and size are always the way to go after finding something that works. They’re gona step it up since adidas is truly pushing hard right now.
I've now had the Victory 1 on my foot and it was not great, night and dat difference in stability to the Victory 2. I now see that the path forward with the dual chambered air unit can work on the road. I'm so curious what Nike does moving forward to reduce weight....
good stuff as always, but adidas has the evo SL, adios 9 and pro 4 releasing soon. Looks like the ultimate combo. Where does that leave the takumi and boston?
Really? I loved the 39/40 but didn't find them great for fast running. I find the 41 much better, though the Peg Plus is even better. Now the Peg 37...that was a killer workout shoe and very fast Peg.
I think you are right regarding the look and the use of Air, but I don't think Air will bring the breakthrough performance enhancement we are looking for. Nike saying “Marquee technology" over and over is the result of a marketing meeting where they said what worked in the past? Let’s go back and repeat the mantra and it will become truth. When Air launched, we in the industry all rushed to put plastic into shoes to compete-torsion, gel, Hexalite, all crap, but it was a competitive talking point. The problem with Air is it isn't scalable or tuneable. Foam is tuneable, hence all the industry advancements today. They tried to tune Air in the 90's and it failed. Increasing the size of the unit always detracted from the performance, of the Air Max, and the Air 180 (I ran in the 180 shoe when it launched- brick!). No one has mentioned energy return in regards to air, at least in a superior way than foam. So yes, I think they will force the design language towards Air, but I don't see an experiential component that exceeds foam coming from it. The Pegasus premium is targeted right at me, and I think it looks like a dud (unlike my love of the Peg Plus, which is pure foam). Thanks for the video
The jury is out on whether the tensile fiber air units can give Nike the performance they are looking for. After running in the AF3 and Victory 2 I am certianly convinced there is something there (along with Nike's other engineering). Nike also seems convinced... The tensile fiber air unit is very different tech than the old Air max units of the 80s...again...something is there. Your trip down memory lane though of 80s running tech was spot in though...I don't miss any of it. The Peg Premium doesn't read as a shoe that will set a new standard in running performance to me. In fact I don't think it will be very good (I could be wrong)....but the Peg Plus is a breakthrough (how simple it is too). This is the benefit of Nike's new tier system. it finally allows them room to keep standard the same, push performance with plus and grab headlines with premium. Win/win as I see it.
@@SagasuRunning yup agree, and yes you are also right- the Peg Plus is just a nice training shoe like the Skylon was, it's not going to change the world.
@Rich-zb7vc I don’t know. I think the Peg Plus (and shoes like it) are changing toe world a bit. The new Adidas Evo SL shoes they in some ways too. I’ll have a video covering that out in the next day or two.
Just wanted to inform you Adidas just dropped a new super trainer, shown at Running Warehouse channel. Hope you’ll do a review of those plus the new Pro 4 and Adios 9🫡
I wonder why Puma sticks to their foams. Puma isnt known for very lively/funny rides. Most people say they feel rather dull which I have asked. So isnt Brooks, but Puma has an actually huge competition interest, while Brooks seem not being interested at all. Thats an absolute amazing video especially as you talked about deadspots... since I have AF3/VF3 I really notice how many "deadspots" are in other shoes. Which starts to annoy me... a lot. I'm still all about durability. I think this "lasting for 1-3marathons" is pure insanity. That all their Environment and carbonfoot print talk is only blabla should everyone know and I do not care. But 300-500bucks for 1-3marathons at top performence is evil.
Puma is definitely pushing their foam program right now. Their move to A-TPU for Nitro Elite is significant in their manufacture and feel of their shoes. That "dense and dead" feel their Puma has had seems to be going away... Agree on Brooks. They don't seem interested in competing at the top end as far as tech. They know their consumer well and build product for their faithful, which makes alot of sense. I admit I have a soft spot for Brooks. I just wish they weren't going all in on "max" at the moment. The AF3 has shown solid durability over the past year... but we shall see how it works over the long term.
@@SagasuRunning Glycerin Maaaaaaax runs good, a stable and less aggressive prime x2. Hyperion Maaaaaaax 2 is a shoe you would actually like. And ghost Maaaaaaax 2 is... Dull and boring. Now they need it a adrenalin Maaaaaaax to make the most useless lineup complety ~ Brooks makes Solid shoes and especially the Glycerin is the shoe I have to order the most at work, but I cant see them anymore, Ghosts/adrenalin everywhere, ghosts and adrenalin here and there I started to hate these dull boring things of a shoe. Eh... Emotions are bad 🥲
Hahaha. I’m thinking about moving to Seattle and the neighborhood I’m considering is the one the Brooks HQ is in. It’s also right on a main running route so I see ALOT of Brooks runners out and wave to the HQ each time I pass (in my non Brooks shoes). I enjoy the brand and what they offer…. It’s just not for me. Emotions are hard! 😂
They kind of already do...thats the Pegasus (the air unit int he peg is the same tensile fiber tech as the AF). But in a super shoe the plate is a key part.
Yeah Nike are up against it now brands have caught up, adios pro 4 and ASICS metaspeed series, air is the only difference/ ace they have left at the moment.. question is how far can they take it? I like the forts alphafly sending shockwaves as it did becaue everyone said then air was old tech and too heavy and boom nike made it work.. who knows
Agree that Adidas and Asics have caught up. What is so interesting though is ZoomX is still the gold standard for a performance foam. Adidas seems to be moving MORE towards the ZoomX feel (softer and more compliant rides) while Asics seems to be moving towards a Lightstrike Pro feel (firmer with spring like resiliency) while Nike is doubling down on the Air/ZoomX combo. What this means is alot of choice in the marketplace for what works best for individual runners. But it is so interesting how things are evolving.
I did sort of know, but didn’t really care. I figured something not AP4 in your feed might be welcome after all the videos that filled it on the same thing…
I think there’s too much emphasis on weight considering humans sensing such subtle differences is subjective at best. Efforts would be better served looking at stack high and other structural changes that would make the shoe more than a single use.
But that is the point and design focus of the Evo 1, it is to maximise performance so durability beyond one race doesn’t matter. It is like a F1 car, it is not meant for the average person to commute. And the tech is now being used for Pro 4 and the new Evo SL which are much more consumer focus and they will focus on things like wearability and durability.
I disagree. Firstly stack heights over 40mm beyond being illegal are unstable and it’s not clear that can even work reasonably. Swing weight is a significant performance issue. 100g of shoe is approximately 1% energy cost - or at least that’s the claim I have read. Weight used to be the primary factor that was being manipulated in shoe design. The Nike Vaporfly innovation was to find a better foam that could overcome the disadvantage of using more and making the shoe heavier because the resiliency characteristics were so good. In larger sizes the weights can become absurd and swing wildly depending on design choices. I have shoes that are 100g different in weight and it definitely does make a difference.
Weight is drastically the main factor in a high performance running shoe. It always has been. The high stack shoes have shown another direction to consider but now that most brands has parity it's time to shave weight and they are all going to do that.
6 straight Nike videos (or branding commercials), 2 weeks of 'all Nike, all the time', and not a mention of the CEO stepping down a few days ago? Is this the new direction of your channel you spoke to us about? I'm not being critical, I am being observational. Saying "Adidas is losing a ton of money" at a time when Nike stock is down more than 50% since Nov. 2021 and Nike CEO John Donahoe officially stepped down days ago - is 'rich' to say the least, no? When you say "Nike being such an innovative company" is hard to swallow when the CEO himself has said otherwise with respect to running. John Donahoe has repeatedly conceded Nike de-invested in running shoe innovation (opening the door for Hoka & On) in favor of focusing on Lifestyle & Basketball. Respectfully, the facts according to Nike don't exactly line up with this characterization you're spinning....
So...this has always been a pro Nike channel and it will always. Nike is the brand I primarily run in and cover very closely. Not really a change in editorial direction at all...just happened that I had a bunch of Nike content piled-up in my queue and it made sense to publish all 6 video together as they all built on one another. As for the CEO...what is there to comment on (Its not the type of thing I would make a video about directly on the channel)? However, in my "Change" video a few weeks back I talked quite a bit (in the comments) about John Donahoe and how his tenure with Nike will likely be seen in similar light as the John Sculley era was at Apple. Lots of parallels between them as well, their backgrounds in unrelated areas to the core business of the company they were brought in to lead with the expectation is increased sales/revenue done in ways that are the antithesis of the company's culture. Overall bad for both companies and it took a few years to recover, but the recovered company was stronger for going down the wrong path (and ruling it out). What is interesting as is Elliott Hill replacing as CEO and Phil Knight's increased involvement again... Nike has a big challenge ahead of them but this new leadership are NIke OGs and know the brand well. Nike will be fine... And my comment on "Adidas losing money" was not on the corporate level...it was on the Evo 1 specifically. I've talked alot about the actual price of the Evo 1 on this channel and how Adidas doesn't want to sell them, multiple videos on this. My point was a $500 USD+ race shoe, that has very limited durability, is not going to fly in the consumer market place. Adidas pushed PEBA foam to the edge and you can only push the material so far until it breaks. The Evo 1 is that edge currently. That was my larger point.
There is a loot of Nike followers around - me included, so what is the issue with covering "fav brand". Also as much as I'm nike lover - I do not run in almost any nike shoes - saddly their shoes are nothing but innovative, maybe apart of racing which do not work for me, its mostly good looking casual - no matter if retro or new - it saddens me a lot but nike will turn its ship around, it will take long time ... before it does - my fav running shoes no nike - last nike I've got was peg 40.... not seeing anything that I'd like to try, and very likely I won't see anything soon ....
But the EVO 1 is just selling a Prototype just like Lamborghini is doing like with the Centenario and the Sian led to the Revelto, the're cutting the R&D costs by making a few production numbers of the protos and selling them as premium
Yup...and Adidas has been VERY clear on this. That being said, the Evo 1 showed a clear path forward for Adidas AND super shoes... which now means Adidas needs to find a way to productize it...whicht hey have seemed to (to a degree) with the AP4... full thoughts on that soon.
Frankenshoes are fun, I also intentionally keep the comps looking very rough so that they don't get misconstrued with "concept" shoes that try to look overly polished. This one was a fun thought experiment that sets a line in the sand for me...we will see where the industry heads in the next 3 years!
I’m going to disagree here. What’s interesting is that both brands are swapping their design and engineering perspective (I’ll talk about this in this months shoe talk video). They also now will have completely complimentary product lines for once (assume Adidas does update the Boston and Takumi Sen series, that an unknown). I will give Addias credit on pricing. I personally almost never look at prices nor is it ever impactful on my shoe purchasing choices, but I realize it is for many. Adidas is giving a lot of value for money right now, no doubt. Does that make them “better”… subjective at best.
This resonates with something I've been thinking for a quite some time. More foam adds weight (bad) but also provides cushioning and energy return (good). It seems that at some point the good outweighed the bad and the era of max-stack shoes was born. But I feel that the trade-off of good and bad highly depends on distance and pace. For a 5K I'll wear a Streakfly because I prefer to be close to the ground for speed, and don't really benefit too much from cushioning. But for a marathon I'll take the extra weight and go with the Alphafly 3 because the cushioning will help me stay fresh for longer. It's a very personal trade-off and I can see why it's hard for companies to get it right. There's no one-size-fits-all. But if Nike managed to provide the same benefits of a supershoe without taking the penalty of extra weight, then that would be amazing. The airpods on the Alpha feel incredible, and air (absence of material) is lighter than any material, so in theory more air is good. So excited to see what they come up with!
Well said. Agree fully. It definitely has been the balance every brand has been playing with the past few years. Some seem to go all in on max stack everything but others will get down to weight as a key factor due to their elites. Nike and Adidas will be battling it out.
Sagasu! awesome video. What do you think of adidas upcoming release? Adizero EVO SL (Super Trainer). I think it’s a shoe that isnt really needed. Since there is Boston & AP3 to do the job. Where will you put this shoe in your rotation?
I like that future Alphafly concept. Dunno how it would run, especially with those large Air units, but I like the look of it. I think the upper is mostly from the Alphafly 3, with a bit at the front from the VF3? The orange rubber outsole also seems to be from one of the VF3 models. Part of the midsole and the Air units are straight from the Victory 2, though the bulk of it is from another shoe, or maybe two? We'll have to wait and see what Nike does.
You got the pieces right on the upper, well done. Having now spent some time in the Victory 2 I think this type of Air Zoom unit could work on the road. it would be a very different feel than the current AF3, but it would be powerful and VERY responsive. I am very curious where Nike goes with all of this.
@@SagasuRunning On a side note, Nike just won over Adidas the contract to outfit our national football team for the next 4 years. Doubt that'll trickle down to running though.😄
Have you seen what Jakob Ingebrigtsen wore during the Copenhagen Half? It looked like an A3, with the visible air pods on the side, but no big circles on the midfoot area. The midfoot part even looked more like Adidas.
I’ve seen it. There has been a rumored “Alphafly Elite (Dev 15)” model out there. The last time we saw it was on Kipchoge’s feet at Tokyo earlier this year. Interesting something new was on JI’s feet. The outsole is definitely different but the midfoot differ too as the plate isn’t as exposed.
@@SagasuRunning I didn’t know posting YT links aren’t allowed. I kept on posting the two links which clearly showed the pair. But they kept disappearing. Anyway as you’ve mentioned, these are specially made for Nike sponsored athletes only. Thanks.
What I’ve noticed, many vaporfly lovers weren’t big fans of the vaporfly 3 but they really enjoy the new alphafly, but it’s the reverse for alphafly lovers
I like the VF3 a lot more than any AF but I have large feet and feel the AF scales badly for us.
I did not like the VF3. Moved to the Metaspeed Sky Edge as it felt very similar to the VF2
@@mrgq2000 which comes to my next gripe - ASICS don’t do my size in them.
Agree, mostly. Ive always been a Vaporfly fan and LOVED the VF3...but also love the AF3 (which I never have before). But at the elite level, I agree with your point.
Ya, the scaling doesn't seem to work well for the Alphafly or the Air Zoom units. I saw a size 13 US pair of Victory 1 track spikes at a Nike outlet store while in the US and it was shocking how different the shoe was from a size 9...
I've been thinking and hoping that at some point Nike will utilize thier Air Zoom strobel or forefoot Air Zoom turbo unit with ZoomX foam for one of their supershoes (i.e. Vaporfly). They can even remove insoles to reduce weight and leave the Zoom Strobel/Zoom Turbo unit exposed right underneath the foot. I genuinely think it'll be fun to run in.
One of the criticism of the Pegasus has always been the feel of the air unit in the shoe for some runners. So this idea could be problematic. However in the AF3 and V2 the Air Zoom units sit directly under the plate, which really smooths out the feel of the air unit and distributed the loads much more evenly. With Nike's more flexible CF plates you still get some feel in them as well.
I don't see air coming the the VF platform. I feel like that will remain the foam only platform for sometime. Who knows though. It will be interesting to see.
It’s an interesting idea, but a bigger air zoom unit, on a road shoe, might lead to durability concerns, at least for paying customers (less so for sponsored athletes): you step on glass shards and the shoe become unusable…the bigger the air unit, the more chances you’ll break it.
It cam be solved though, at least mitigated. The AF3 has some interesting engineering in the forefoot to protect the air units, plus the air units themselves have some structure. The Victory 2 doesn't need to worry about such things AND has a spike plate to protect the air unit (something a road shoe can never have)...but I'm confident Nike's engineering can solve the problem.
“Alphafly Frankenstein” How cool is that!!!
FrankenFly? 🤣
The midsole will also have to be firmer than ZoomX as it is now in order to be resilient enough at a reduced stack. For example the Streakfly could "bottom out" for me pretty easily when pushing intervals. Whenever a shoe has that bottoms-out feeling, it means a limit has been exceeded and the foam cannot compress as quickly as it had been and therefore there is less energy return as a percentage of the input force is going to be less than if it had not bottomed out. I think that if the shoe is bottoming out then there is a loss of efficiency. The takumi sen 10 lightstrike pro foam is firmer and has a different resiliency curve than zoomX and does not bottom out in that way, but it is also clearly heavier.
I hope that designers will be testing the net efficacy of these changes to yield an actual improvement in performance rather than a Cadillac tailfins situation.
I think they get this and are addressing it. The ZoomX in the Peg Plus feels different. Now that I have spent quite a bit of time in it, mostly fast running, I've found it doesn't have that "bottoming out" feeling the Streakfly could have. There isn't really any more foam in the Peg Plus either. ZoomX has definitely changed.
Once again, your knowledge of product design shined in this video. I can't really comment on your predictions because they seemed spot on, as usual. For example, you and I had a brief conversation about the release of the Adios Pro 4. You predicted that Adidas was leveraging the Evo tech towards the masses. You were spot on, and you covered that completely early in this video. Well done, sir. 👏
So much to cover here with Adidas...a long video is inbound....stay tuned. I'll cover how I make my predictions a but too, they aren't guesses at all.
@@SagasuRunning Staying tuned.
Once again a wonderful video, with the best of perspectives! Thanks again for amazing content! 🙏 I really appreciate how you go the whole round, brand differentiators, marketing strategies, running tech from both a performance and a durability standpoint. It really shows how complex it is “to hit the nail in the head” for running shoes. But even more so, it inspires and makes a new runner like me massively curious for what the future of Nike running shoes will bring!
Swooosh! ☑️👟🏁🙌
It definitely is a complex equation to get right here. Subtle changes, for any brand, make a massive difference in performance and feel. Runners are all very individual as well and our feet really can feel these changes (and that change is drastically different for every runner) so it's a tough spot and engineering problem to solve for...which makes this all so fascinating.
Thank you for the kind words on the content! 🤙🏻
I love how you could predict the future of supershoes.
I'm only working from what product line managers are saying in the media and reading between the lines based on my product design background and having been in teams that built these types of strategies in the past. Some of ti is clear as day if you listen to them, especially Adidas as of late.
@@SagasuRunning that's what we love about your channel. You dig really much deeper into the insane details of the shoes and explain it really well. No need for action running shots mostly done by famous youtubers. At first it was interesting to watch shoe running videos but then it gets old.
I appreciate that. I would include more running footage but I hate running carry stuff… so, I shoot very little and only when I really need it. We all have our own style, which is interesting I’ve definitely focused on stripping mine WAY down so the message is the focus. Not me or editing. I find story telling much more engaging that way and am glad I’m not alone.
Adidas stomped on your Nike content by starting the PR blitz for Adios Pro 4, Adios 8, and Evo SL shoes.
Adios 8 is a low stack and very light shoe like you predicted but I’m not sure it is really a racing shoe. It seems more likely a super foam workout shoe that doesn’t have an intense stiffening agent - a de-tuned Takumi Sen.
The Evo SL described on Running Warehouse seems like a Boston reboot which is essentially a higher stack version of the Adios 8 - Lightstrike Pro with a shank. Also not a race shoe but similar-ish to an Endorphin Speed amount of midsole.
Adios 8 does have a shank according to Adidas rep on BTIR. He also said that Lightstrike Pro evo is chemically the same as Lightstrike Pro (so TPEE) but with a different manufacturing process without compression molding - the carving from a block of foam process. The top layer of Adios Pro 4 is Lightstrike Pro evo and the bottom layer is Lightstrike Pro which combination he said is more durable. Most of the outsole on these new shoes is cast polyurethane with a Continental rubber toe-off patch. The claim is the polyurethane has almost as good grip characteristics but is significantly lighter than Continental rubber.
Adios Pro 4 is a once lighter - just under 200g - so it is now Vaporfly weight.
Ya, hahaha...and all their chosen influencers...🤣
I will have my Adios pro 4/Evo SL/Adios 9 video out int he next day or two. Alot ot cover and ALOT to say now that we have official details.
Your take on the Adidas range is aligning to mine, mostly...
Also, i caught that line about "chemically the same" and have many thoughts.
Stay tuned.
@@SagasuRunningyes it's quite interesting when you notice who is "choosen influencer" of particular brand and take it as is when consuming their content ....
The victory 1 felt as unstable as the alpha fly 2 in a weird comparison. The victory 2 is aggressive and stable. Which i can say about the alpha fly which is great. But you’re right, reducing materials and size are always the way to go after finding something that works. They’re gona step it up since adidas is truly pushing hard right now.
I've now had the Victory 1 on my foot and it was not great, night and dat difference in stability to the Victory 2. I now see that the path forward with the dual chambered air unit can work on the road. I'm so curious what Nike does moving forward to reduce weight....
good stuff as always, but adidas has the evo SL, adios 9 and pro 4 releasing soon. Looks like the ultimate combo. Where does that leave the takumi and boston?
I'll have my video out cover all of this in the next day or two...MANY MANY thoughts. Stay tuned.
Them leaning into air zoom is TERRIBLE news to me. Stupid outdated tech. The shoes without air zoom feel so much smoother and modern
I don't know. The AF3 and Victory 2 show that that is not true. Runners all respond to different feels...but Nike is definitely onto something here.
Peg 39 has been my fav interval training shoe
Really? I loved the 39/40 but didn't find them great for fast running. I find the 41 much better, though the Peg Plus is even better. Now the Peg 37...that was a killer workout shoe and very fast Peg.
Nike Frankenfly, genius! Love your design and hope Nike is inspired by it
Yes! Nike FrakenFly 🤣
thanks for shareing your opinions great.
Thank you for watching. 🤙🏻
I think you are right regarding the look and the use of Air, but I don't think Air will bring the breakthrough performance enhancement we are looking for. Nike saying “Marquee technology" over and over is the result of a marketing meeting where they said what worked in the past? Let’s go back and repeat the mantra and it will become truth. When Air launched, we in the industry all rushed to put plastic into shoes to compete-torsion, gel, Hexalite, all crap, but it was a competitive talking point. The problem with Air is it isn't scalable or tuneable. Foam is tuneable, hence all the industry advancements today. They tried to tune Air in the 90's and it failed. Increasing the size of the unit always detracted from the performance, of the Air Max, and the Air 180 (I ran in the 180 shoe when it launched- brick!). No one has mentioned energy return in regards to air, at least in a superior way than foam. So yes, I think they will force the design language towards Air, but I don't see an experiential component that exceeds foam coming from it. The Pegasus premium is targeted right at me, and I think it looks like a dud (unlike my love of the Peg Plus, which is pure foam). Thanks for the video
The jury is out on whether the tensile fiber air units can give Nike the performance they are looking for. After running in the AF3 and Victory 2 I am certianly convinced there is something there (along with Nike's other engineering). Nike also seems convinced...
The tensile fiber air unit is very different tech than the old Air max units of the 80s...again...something is there. Your trip down memory lane though of 80s running tech was spot in though...I don't miss any of it.
The Peg Premium doesn't read as a shoe that will set a new standard in running performance to me. In fact I don't think it will be very good (I could be wrong)....but the Peg Plus is a breakthrough (how simple it is too). This is the benefit of Nike's new tier system. it finally allows them room to keep standard the same, push performance with plus and grab headlines with premium. Win/win as I see it.
@@SagasuRunning yup agree, and yes you are also right- the Peg Plus is just a nice training shoe like the Skylon was, it's not going to change the world.
@Rich-zb7vc I don’t know. I think the Peg Plus (and shoes like it) are changing toe world a bit. The new Adidas Evo SL shoes they in some ways too. I’ll have a video covering that out in the next day or two.
Just wanted to inform you Adidas just dropped a new super trainer, shown at Running Warehouse channel. Hope you’ll do a review of those plus the new Pro 4 and Adios 9🫡
I'll have my video covering all the new Adidas product out in the next day or two. I have alot to say.
I wonder why Puma sticks to their foams.
Puma isnt known for very lively/funny rides. Most people say they feel rather dull which I have asked.
So isnt Brooks, but Puma has an actually huge competition interest, while Brooks seem not being interested at all.
Thats an absolute amazing video especially as you talked about deadspots... since I have AF3/VF3 I really notice how many "deadspots" are in other shoes. Which starts to annoy me... a lot.
I'm still all about durability. I think this "lasting for 1-3marathons" is pure insanity. That all their Environment and carbonfoot print talk is only blabla should everyone know and I do not care. But 300-500bucks for 1-3marathons at top performence is evil.
Puma is definitely pushing their foam program right now. Their move to A-TPU for Nitro Elite is significant in their manufacture and feel of their shoes. That "dense and dead" feel their Puma has had seems to be going away...
Agree on Brooks. They don't seem interested in competing at the top end as far as tech. They know their consumer well and build product for their faithful, which makes alot of sense. I admit I have a soft spot for Brooks. I just wish they weren't going all in on "max" at the moment.
The AF3 has shown solid durability over the past year... but we shall see how it works over the long term.
@@SagasuRunning Glycerin Maaaaaaax runs good, a stable and less aggressive prime x2.
Hyperion Maaaaaaax 2 is a shoe you would actually like.
And ghost Maaaaaaax 2 is... Dull and boring.
Now they need it a adrenalin Maaaaaaax to make the most useless lineup complety ~
Brooks makes Solid shoes and especially the Glycerin is the shoe I have to order the most at work, but I cant see them anymore, Ghosts/adrenalin everywhere, ghosts and adrenalin here and there I started to hate these dull boring things of a shoe.
Eh... Emotions are bad 🥲
Hahaha. I’m thinking about moving to Seattle and the neighborhood I’m considering is the one the Brooks HQ is in. It’s also right on a main running route so I see ALOT of Brooks runners out and wave to the HQ each time I pass (in my non Brooks shoes).
I enjoy the brand and what they offer…. It’s just not for me. Emotions are hard! 😂
@@SagasuRunning but but but Taiwan is beautiful and they need you! I guess
lol… hardly…. Though it is beautiful here with amazing food. Better food than the US…
i wish they made that shoe without a carbon plate
They kind of already do...thats the Pegasus (the air unit int he peg is the same tensile fiber tech as the AF). But in a super shoe the plate is a key part.
Yeah Nike are up against it now brands have caught up, adios pro 4 and ASICS metaspeed series, air is the only difference/ ace they have left at the moment.. question is how far can they take it? I like the forts alphafly sending shockwaves as it did becaue everyone said then air was old tech and too heavy and boom nike made it work.. who knows
Agree that Adidas and Asics have caught up. What is so interesting though is ZoomX is still the gold standard for a performance foam. Adidas seems to be moving MORE towards the ZoomX feel (softer and more compliant rides) while Asics seems to be moving towards a Lightstrike Pro feel (firmer with spring like resiliency) while Nike is doubling down on the Air/ZoomX combo.
What this means is alot of choice in the marketplace for what works best for individual runners.
But it is so interesting how things are evolving.
Who cares, the Adios Pro 4 will be released soon. ;-)
I care... both Nike and Addias are doing very interesting things here.
@@SagasuRunning I was simply making a joke that the timing of the release of this video wasn't so good. Not your fault, you couldn't have known.
I did sort of know, but didn’t really care. I figured something not AP4 in your feed might be welcome after all the videos that filled it on the same thing…
I think there’s too much emphasis on weight considering humans sensing such subtle differences is subjective at best. Efforts would be better served looking at stack high and other structural changes that would make the shoe more than a single use.
But that is the point and design focus of the Evo 1, it is to maximise performance so durability beyond one race doesn’t matter. It is like a F1 car, it is not meant for the average person to commute. And the tech is now being used for Pro 4 and the new Evo SL which are much more consumer focus and they will focus on things like wearability and durability.
I disagree. Firstly stack heights over 40mm beyond being illegal are unstable and it’s not clear that can even work reasonably. Swing weight is a significant performance issue. 100g of shoe is approximately 1% energy cost - or at least that’s the claim I have read. Weight used to be the primary factor that was being manipulated in shoe design. The Nike Vaporfly innovation was to find a better foam that could overcome the disadvantage of using more and making the shoe heavier because the resiliency characteristics were so good.
In larger sizes the weights can become absurd and swing wildly depending on design choices. I have shoes that are 100g different in weight and it definitely does make a difference.
Weight is drastically the main factor in a high performance running shoe. It always has been. The high stack shoes have shown another direction to consider but now that most brands has parity it's time to shave weight and they are all going to do that.
💯
6 straight Nike videos (or branding commercials), 2 weeks of 'all Nike, all the time', and not a mention of the CEO stepping down a few days ago? Is this the new direction of your channel you spoke to us about? I'm not being critical, I am being observational. Saying "Adidas is losing a ton of money" at a time when Nike stock is down more than 50% since Nov. 2021 and Nike CEO John Donahoe officially stepped down days ago - is 'rich' to say the least, no? When you say "Nike being such an innovative company" is hard to swallow when the CEO himself has said otherwise with respect to running. John Donahoe has repeatedly conceded Nike de-invested in running shoe innovation (opening the door for Hoka & On) in favor of focusing on Lifestyle & Basketball. Respectfully, the facts according to Nike don't exactly line up with this characterization you're spinning....
So...this has always been a pro Nike channel and it will always. Nike is the brand I primarily run in and cover very closely. Not really a change in editorial direction at all...just happened that I had a bunch of Nike content piled-up in my queue and it made sense to publish all 6 video together as they all built on one another.
As for the CEO...what is there to comment on (Its not the type of thing I would make a video about directly on the channel)? However, in my "Change" video a few weeks back I talked quite a bit (in the comments) about John Donahoe and how his tenure with Nike will likely be seen in similar light as the John Sculley era was at Apple. Lots of parallels between them as well, their backgrounds in unrelated areas to the core business of the company they were brought in to lead with the expectation is increased sales/revenue done in ways that are the antithesis of the company's culture. Overall bad for both companies and it took a few years to recover, but the recovered company was stronger for going down the wrong path (and ruling it out).
What is interesting as is Elliott Hill replacing as CEO and Phil Knight's increased involvement again... Nike has a big challenge ahead of them but this new leadership are NIke OGs and know the brand well. Nike will be fine...
And my comment on "Adidas losing money" was not on the corporate level...it was on the Evo 1 specifically. I've talked alot about the actual price of the Evo 1 on this channel and how Adidas doesn't want to sell them, multiple videos on this. My point was a $500 USD+ race shoe, that has very limited durability, is not going to fly in the consumer market place. Adidas pushed PEBA foam to the edge and you can only push the material so far until it breaks. The Evo 1 is that edge currently. That was my larger point.
There is a loot of Nike followers around - me included, so what is the issue with covering "fav brand". Also as much as I'm nike lover - I do not run in almost any nike shoes - saddly their shoes are nothing but innovative, maybe apart of racing which do not work for me, its mostly good looking casual - no matter if retro or new - it saddens me a lot but nike will turn its ship around, it will take long time ... before it does - my fav running shoes no nike - last nike I've got was peg 40.... not seeing anything that I'd like to try, and very likely I won't see anything soon ....
I will buy the prototype you made ❤❤❤
Ha...I'd love to run in it.
Extremely enjoyable and very informative. Thank you.
Thank you for watching. 🤙🏻
But the EVO 1 is just selling a Prototype just like Lamborghini is doing like with the Centenario and the Sian led to the Revelto, the're cutting the R&D costs by making a few production numbers of the protos and selling them as premium
Yup...and Adidas has been VERY clear on this. That being said, the Evo 1 showed a clear path forward for Adidas AND super shoes... which now means Adidas needs to find a way to productize it...whicht hey have seemed to (to a degree) with the AP4... full thoughts on that soon.
Love the Frankenstein Alphafly. There’s so many great observations here. 👏🏻
Frankenshoes are fun, I also intentionally keep the comps looking very rough so that they don't get misconstrued with "concept" shoes that try to look overly polished. This one was a fun thought experiment that sets a line in the sand for me...we will see where the industry heads in the next 3 years!
Given Adidas's recent reveal of the new Adizero shoes it blows Nike out of the water completely on pricing alone
I’m going to disagree here. What’s interesting is that both brands are swapping their design and engineering perspective (I’ll talk about this in this months shoe talk video). They also now will have completely complimentary product lines for once (assume Adidas does update the Boston and Takumi Sen series, that an unknown).
I will give Addias credit on pricing. I personally almost never look at prices nor is it ever impactful on my shoe purchasing choices, but I realize it is for many. Adidas is giving a lot of value for money right now, no doubt. Does that make them “better”… subjective at best.
This resonates with something I've been thinking for a quite some time. More foam adds weight (bad) but also provides cushioning and energy return (good). It seems that at some point the good outweighed the bad and the era of max-stack shoes was born.
But I feel that the trade-off of good and bad highly depends on distance and pace. For a 5K I'll wear a Streakfly because I prefer to be close to the ground for speed, and don't really benefit too much from cushioning. But for a marathon I'll take the extra weight and go with the Alphafly 3 because the cushioning will help me stay fresh for longer. It's a very personal trade-off and I can see why it's hard for companies to get it right. There's no one-size-fits-all.
But if Nike managed to provide the same benefits of a supershoe without taking the penalty of extra weight, then that would be amazing.
The airpods on the Alpha feel incredible, and air (absence of material) is lighter than any material, so in theory more air is good. So excited to see what they come up with!
Well said. Agree fully. It definitely has been the balance every brand has been playing with the past few years. Some seem to go all in on max stack everything but others will get down to weight as a key factor due to their elites. Nike and Adidas will be battling it out.
I think your "Frankenstein" ist not looking bad! The idea behind your prtototype might be the running shoe future. interesting times are coming.
Yes, very interesting times ahead. So exciting!
Sagasu! awesome video.
What do you think of adidas upcoming release? Adizero EVO SL (Super Trainer). I think it’s a shoe that isnt really needed. Since there is Boston & AP3 to do the job. Where will you put this shoe in your rotation?
Thank you.
I'm currently working on my Adios pro 4/EvoSL/Adios 9 video...it will be up in the next day or two...many MANY thoughts. Stay tuned.
@@SagasuRunning Awesome vid out will be watching!
I like that future Alphafly concept. Dunno how it would run, especially with those large Air units, but I like the look of it. I think the upper is mostly from the Alphafly 3, with a bit at the front from the VF3? The orange rubber outsole also seems to be from one of the VF3 models. Part of the midsole and the Air units are straight from the Victory 2, though the bulk of it is from another shoe, or maybe two? We'll have to wait and see what Nike does.
You got the pieces right on the upper, well done.
Having now spent some time in the Victory 2 I think this type of Air Zoom unit could work on the road. it would be a very different feel than the current AF3, but it would be powerful and VERY responsive.
I am very curious where Nike goes with all of this.
@@SagasuRunning On a side note, Nike just won over Adidas the contract to outfit our national football team for the next 4 years. Doubt that'll trickle down to running though.😄
@OdanUrr87 Nike football has been aggressive with federation contracts…. Some massive surprises too.
Have you seen what Jakob Ingebrigtsen wore during the Copenhagen Half?
It looked like an A3, with the visible air pods on the side, but no big circles on the midfoot area. The midfoot part even looked more like Adidas.
ruclips.net/video/JUYbajSqAqw/видео.htmlsi=e9zlHnZ68tCOIJns
@8.54
ruclips.net/video/QPMiA3cLJXA/видео.htmlsi=nGpY1Rt9gSYlH1Ao
ruclips.net/video/QPMiA3cLJXA/видео.htmlsi=nGpY1Rt9gSYlH1Ao
I’ve seen it. There has been a rumored “Alphafly Elite (Dev 15)” model out there. The last time we saw it was on Kipchoge’s feet at Tokyo earlier this year. Interesting something new was on JI’s feet.
The outsole is definitely different but the midfoot differ too as the plate isn’t as exposed.
@@SagasuRunning
I didn’t know posting YT links aren’t allowed.
I kept on posting the two links which clearly showed the pair.
But they kept disappearing.
Anyway as you’ve mentioned, these are specially made for Nike sponsored athletes only.
Thanks.