I was talking about this with a friend, wondering what the writers were thinking and…I think that both with the elves’ hope that they would create something huge like the sun and moon like a great lamp in a tower plus an obsession with the “perfection” of Valinor…I think they wanted to focus on purity and not combining elements. Now was this obvious? No. But that’s the only explanation for Celebrimbor thinking he shouldn’t combine mithril with anything.
@@mrs.manrique7411 The conversating between Halbrand and Celabrimbor goes as; Halbrand: Why don't you use alloy? Celabrimbor: The amount would dilute its unique qualities. Halbrand: Why don't you use the right alloy? Celabrimbor: °o°
@Deathclaw.By.Design Me: One World Trade Center is the tallest building in America You: The tallest building is Burj Khalifa Me: I said America You: Yeah, but Burj Khalifa is the tallest building in the world, and America is in the world, too.
I stumbled on your video on complete accident but loved every episode break down you did! I'm on the side that hates what this show did to Tolkien's work, but will never talk down on anyone who enjoys watching it either. Totally agree, that anyone who can watch it should PLEASE PLEASE read the books.
It may come as a bit of a surprise to discover that I have friends who largely enjoyed the Lord of the Rings (reading the books that is) and despite several attempts found the Silmarillion as dull as dishwater and were never able to finish it. I have read the Lord of the Rings at least 15 times over the years and the Silmarillion at least a half dozen…I love Tolkien but I don’t really care if someone interprets it poorly because it does not change my relationship with the books *at all*. I might be a bit sad that those adapters have not realized a vision that jives with my own but no one is pointing a gun at my head and making me watch them. For the most part I have zero patience for Tolkien ‘Tru-fans’ who wring their hands and spend ridiculous amounts of time and energy decrying stuff like ‘The Rings of Power’. It’s not that hard to do…if you watch any of it…find that you don’t like it…Stop Watching. Problem solved. Tolkien has not been *ruined*. Nothing has changed except that some people made a thing adjacent to something you like and it displeased you. The End. The irony is that these very same people often perform staggering feats of pretzel logic to justify still liking the dumpster fire that was the ‘Hobbit’ trilogy. I endured the first film, liked about 10 percent of it and was done. I didn’t need to watch the remaining films to fuel my annoyance at what Jackson was resorting to and moved on. I hung in there for a couple (maybe three?) episodes of the Rings of Power and just found it rather dull and misguided. I stopped watching. Problem solved. The outrageous zealotry of those ‘Trufans’ tripping over themselves to eviscerate stuff like tRoP is kind of creepy and weird.
@@Steppeponytail You're completely right, "just don't watch it" is what most people are doing guaranteed. But they are allowed to make fun of it 😆. We do live in a meme culture for better or worse. I for one don't follow anything of this show, but I get spammed with ads and suggested content about all of it since I follow LotR content. The internet will internet. Just log out if its annoying.
"Feels like a badly written fanfic" Thank you! That is exactly what I thought when I rage watched the entire season, purely so I could complain about it online. For the price they paid for this show, there is zero excuse for how bad it is. They have market research, they have test screenings, they had Tolkien scholars on hand, until they fired them for constantly saying "this isn't Tolkien." This should have been the most epic of stories ever made. Instead, we got a soulless parody.
What are you talking about? What fake news sites do you people get this info from? Simon Tolkien is still the consultant for the show, and If you're talking about Tom Shippey he was fired for breaching an NDA and had nothing to do with creative differences.
I'd add a counterpoint to "there's nothing wrong with liking it." I think there is. It is objectively bad craftmanship, whether you like this kind of slop or not. People need to understand that they deserve better crafted stories, with team of creators that want to make something worthy of love and attention (not saying that everyone on the team is incompetent of course). By "letting people like what they want to like" without striving to reject the horrendous products we're given, you're indirectly protecting this kind of behaviour. They will continue to produce slops like RoP because we, as customers and fans (old and new), are too indulgent with them. It is not okay to be disrespectful over it, but it definitely need to change, and it can if people start voicing their opinions unapologetically. I know it is nice and safe to say "like what you want to like", but it is part of the problem in my opinion. Not everything is unredeemable in this show, but the vast, vast majority of it is and the people in charge need to be called out on it so that things can improve. This is tough love, but people deserve good stories.
Part of the problem is that the small but shrill group of bigots-the ones who were screaming 'woke' a year before the first episode, and _still_ think that they are clever to use the term 'Guyladriel'-hijacked any serious criticism of the show. Amazon's surrogates (e.g., cast members) were able to use this to deflect _all_ criticisms of the show with an illogical "the haters are just racist and sexist." Any thoughtful discussion of the wretched screenwriting or occasionally cheap-looking craftsmanship (oh, those Númenorean armor costumes) were, and still are, submerged in the shouting.
Perhaps, but on an individual level, it has been my experience that very rarely can you convince someone to not like something. You can give them logical arguments; you can give them passionate pathos. It makes no difference. Shaming individuals for their enjoyment of poorly crafted stories does little but hinder beneficial discussion. All one can do is be honest about one's own opinions and create an environment that allows others to be honest. Hearing your opinion likely will not change someone else's mind about the story that they like, but if your points resonate, they may look at the next incompetent story they come across with a new perspective. People *do* deserve good stories and the people in charge *do* need to be called out when they feed us bad ones, but directing ire toward the audience of bad writing is a fool's errand. I prefer to offer my perspective on the writing quality of a story and let others come to their own conclusions.
@@AlaniTheScriptMage That's why i wrote that it is not okay to be disrespectful about it. I'm not saying that we should shame anyone that like it. But going "It is objectively a bad show for X and Y, you deserve better" is far from shaming someone.I'm saying that we should tell people that it is okay to have standards and demand better stories. This is the kind of commentary that could bring people to educate themselves about the craft and/or hobby they devote time and money into.
@@EryomisI agree with what both you and @AlaniTheScriptMage wrote. A silver lining not to be ignored is the fact that Amazon now has to sit through five gruelingly unprofitable seasons of ROP which should give a lot of people, both internal and external to Amazon, a lot of time to ponder the key successes and mistakes of this show. Those of us dissatisfied by the grand creative injustice of shows such as the ROP find it far easier speaking out about what we don’t like than coming up with actionable alternatives that would lead to real quality craftsmanship in today’s environment where we are pitted against corporations wielding billions of dollars XD. My only hope is that some powerful people with abundant creativity and creative integrity are able to reverse some of this damaging flippancy soon. Cheers guys, I appreciate the refreshingly respectful discourse
I am one whose all for the wandering "stranger" being Gandalf. I think it's more significant for casual fans to know that Gandalf is essentially an Angel who has been a guide & guardian of the Elves ever since Elves came into being, than to cling to the timeline of him taking on the Gandalf form & alias in the 3rd age rather than the 2nd. I know that, in the alias guise of Gandalf, the Angelic Ainur Olorin arrives in the 3rd Age, HOWEVER, what is also "true" ( within the lore, of course ) is that Gandalf, in his actual identity of Olorin the Ainur, has been a guide, protector & defender of the Elves ( and later of Men ) since the Elves came into being: "...he loved the Elves ( but ) he came among them unseen, or in form as one of them..." It's also been established that he was one of those Ainur sent to protect the Elves in the Age of THe Stars from the overflow from the dread war between Valinor and Utumno. I think casual viewers SHOULD be helped to understand that Olorin ( Gandalf ) is an Angelic being who has been defending against the evils of Melkor/Morgoth and Melkor's/Morgoth's vassal Ainur spirits ( Sauron, Balrogs etc ) since the beginning, and putting the Istari in the 2nd age is a good way to do that.
The recurring problem with Rings of Power-and it continues into the second season-is the utter failure to understand or portray times (and distances), greater and lesser. The Elves had a deadline we first heard in the first episode: Spring. But if you have a ticking clock, you have to show the clock ticking. How long until Spring? How much time has passed when we see the forges constructed? When Halbrand and Galadriel have arrived in Eregion, how much time is left? We are constantly told that this is urgent (and yet Elrond and Durin _walked_ from Lindon to Khazad-dûm. With elves carrying a stone slab. Because they have no horses nor carts? At least Lindon gets horses in the second season). When Celebrimbor is ready to forge the Rings, he is told that it is too late, and Eregion should be 'disbanded' (some of the tone-deaf dialogue we all love so much). So yes, the Three are forged in great haste (hours? days? surely not weeks), but the deadline is artificial in the sense that the writers could have made it anything they wanted, since the whole tree-is-dying is just an invention to create the deadline. And by being vague ("Our time runs short … shorter than you know.") even the urgency of this deadline is muddled, so there is no tension or even a suspension-of-disbelief "oh my goodness will they succeed or will the elves have to leave?" worry. The writers are inept. Ticking clocks are not exactly a new and demanding device-there was a whole TV series built on it-and yet these writers completely bungled its use here.
@@purefoldnz3070 You should not reveal your hand this easily. S2 so far is OBJECTIVELY better than S1, but that is the worst thing for you isn't it, because you actually _want_ it to fail. You have gone so hard for this being the worst thing since H*tler, that your ego will not accept anything good this show have done, or might to in the future. It's like watching Brexiters or Trump voters from 2016 who refused to admit they fucked up.
Since Peter Jackson' Lotr trilogy came out I have read The Silmarillion twice. There is such a depth and wealth of epic stories there. But I understand that the creators of Rings of power wanted it to be not too far removed from what people learned from Lotr. I hope one day someone capable will bring its stories to the screen. Thank you for your level-headed approach to the Rings of power series. I had been waiting somlong to see ans would have been easy to dismiss it entirely, oug of disappointment. But I think it is worthwhile to sift through the wreckage to find the good, and to purpose how it could have been done better, to do justice to the source material. So, thank you again for your analysis and insights.
From what I understand, the studio doesn't own the rights to the silmarillion, but they do own the rights to the appendices in RotK, so they're treading a fine intellectual property line. I mean, they spent a billion dollars to make a show of a story that has its own book, but they didn't want to pay for it. So yeah. If it wasn't mentioned in the appendices, they can't use it.
I thought RoP was bad as a tv series, period. Not only bad adaptation. And then I see newspaper articles praising it as the second coming. I don't get. Why? It's not that hard to see how bad it is. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts ^^
Is that the one with the burning horse? Truly epic storytelling. In fact, S1 was such epic storytelling they had to spend 3 eps of S2 trying to fix the mistakes. And failing. Huzzah!
I haven’t watched this show at all because, honestly, i don’t need the aggravation in my life. But I’m loving watching you battling through it, trying to make it make a skerrick of sense 😂
Here at the end of this little journey, I’m so glad I tuned in and followed your commentary to the end. Thank you for letting take this little journey with you. To your point that a lot of the plot lines felt superfluous to the main plot, I think that’s because this season mostly functions to set the stage for the following seasons. Already in the first three episodes of S2 we’re seeing plot payoffs from S1. Maybe you don’t think they function as well as they could or should. But I personally think the show is getting better. Hope to see you give some commentary on the new episodes. The dwarves plot: this is going to have so many ramifications this season. I’m calling it. Yeah, they were able to make the three elven rings with the little shard of mithril, but they’ll need more for the dwarves and human rings. So that partnership is happening. Plus Celebrimbor has invented moon runes now and the gates of Durin are going to be made, and I’ll bet my bottom dollar that’s where the Eregion refugees go after Eregion is sacked. Galadriel will lead them through Moria and establish lothlorien on the other side of the mountains for the survivors of Eregion. The Numenor plot is plodding along. It’s clumsy, because again I don’t think the show runners really understand what makes the Numenoreans tick. I just hope they do a halfway decent job. The harfoot plot is clearly going to connect to the east and how these two wizard help or hinder Sauron’s influence there. I’m so sold that they’re blue wizards and that the similarities to Gandalf and Saruman are only there for fan service and/or misdirection. I don’t know if you’ve started on the new season yet, but the anatar/Celebrimbor dynamic is off to a GREAT start. Agreed on Celebrimbor, mostly. I always imagined him more youthful, muscular, masculine, etc. I like this actor’s gravitas, but they could have costumed him to make him a bit more valiant and less old and sagely. But maybe our preconceived ideas of him from fan art and from shadow of Mordor/war have colored our imaginations of him and this may actually be a bit more faithful a portrayal. Yeah, for us book fans, the sauron mystery box was solved either when we see Halbrand at the Numenorean forge, or for the dense among us, here, when he calls his contribution a “gift.” That being said, I watched this season with a friend who has only seen the Jackson movies and has never read a word of Tolkien, and by this point his was still clueless to the identity of sauron. So when the cultists call the stranger sauron, he was like 🤯 So the plot does work for the causal fan. When it’s revealed that Halbrand and not the stranger is actually sauron, he was like double 🤯🤯 I was a little irked by the change of order of the rings being made, but at least they kept to the lore that sauron had no direct involvement in the creation of the elven rings. Elrond knows Halbrand isn’t who he says he is, but doesn’t know yet who he is. Why Galadriel keeps it hidden until S2? Who knows. That wasn’t the best writing choice. I lowkey love the idea of Sauron falling for Galadriel and trying to win her to his side. I’m also glad that there was never any real chance of that happening. Galadriel May have started to feel some affection for Halbrand, but it was never enough to sway her to sauron’s side. Galadriel is supposed to be one of the most beautiful beings in middle earth. Much like the silmarils making Melkor cry, the idea of sauron crushing on Galadriel, someone he can never truly have, just kind of works for me. Seeing sauron as something more than a cartoon villain who just wants to ruin the world, someone who wants a partner by his side who is genuinely good, someone to ensure that he is actually a benevolent dictator, makes him more compelling. Of course we know there is no such thing as a benevolent dictator, and if Galadriel has accepted, it would have corrupted her more than it would have sanctified him. But his desire for her in this way - not romantically or sexually, but as an equal partner in rule (which by the way works with Galadriel’s canon character as she went to middle earth to rule her own realm the way she wanted to) makes him a more multidimensional villain that he typically is portrayed as. Thanks again for creating a space for these conversations 🙂
Thank you for your thoughtful analysis! Although I don't quite agree, I think that is a reasonable stance to have. I will be reviewing Season 2! Episode 1 will be up imminently:)
Very glad I stumbled upon your videos. I love discussing shows and movies, seeing what works, what doesn’t, and why. I look forward to seeing your thoughts on season 2.
Long time Tolkien nerd here myself. You nailed alot of my sentiments about the show myself. There are some parts that I find interesting and have pondered it myself and other parts that I just try to ignore lore breaking stuff. The Wheel of Time show is another one that I have many many problems with and if you are a fan of that universe you should try a similar feedback series with that :D
I would really love you to do a similar analysis to The Acolyte and Ashoka TV shows, just fpr an in-depth review of story structure, plot points and scripting.
After watching all of your Season 1 videos I just want to say that I am happy to have found a voice that has articulated many of the same thoughts and feelings on the pros and cons of this show that I have myself. I think you have struck a nice balance between wanting to give this show a chance to stand on its own terms, and expressing your utter dismay at the unnecessary harm done to Tolkien's own historical timeline and characterizations. Galadriel ought to be one of the greatest figures in the entire legendarium, both for her power and for her wisdom, and she has been written as her antithesis. I appreciate the nod to the storyline of Adar though, because I agree that this was such a lost opportunity to tell a story that is consistent with the canon, but still goes in unforseen directions. I am a little afraid to start watching Season 2. So far, I have resisted the temptation, but I will probably succumb.
Your summary of it being someone's fanfic and that the show kept spinning its wheels on something that we didn't need to see is spot on. Heck, the whole Southlands plot is either fully unnecessary, or could happen AFTER the other rings are forged, Sauron kickstarting Mount Doom in order to forge the One Ring. Sure, it would still a lore-break of sorts (Sauron settled in Mordor in 1000 Second Age, and forged the One around 1600 Second Age), but it would tie much better into the overall narrative. And it is not as if they care about the timeline anyway... Instead, we got the Elven Occupation Forces that have been oppressing the locals over something their ancestors did at least hundreds if not thousands of years ago. Way to establish your good guys.
Being a fanfic isn't a bad thing. The problem with RoP is that the creators don't really care about the source material. It's not a work of love, it's made for money, pure and simple. I would love a fanfiction tv series set in Middle-Earth if it was good.
I was so excited to see early days sauron as I am a big fan of manipulative villains that are always 5 steps ahead and plan for everything, but this show depicts sauron as a usless winy sometime powerless sometimes powerful person who has most of his plans handed to him. Most of the bad things that have or are happening in the show aren't even because of sauron the elves light fading is the aftermath of Morgoth Mordoros creation was adar most of his success is attributed to luck or people around him being stupid.
I think for me the main issue with the "maybe you could use an alloy?" contribution is that a) this and "have you thought about not trying so hard?" are the only contributions that we are shown and b) Halbrand is some randomer who rocks up without any existing credentials for crafting magical items. The only thing that we have seen him make is a sword that a human smith finds passable. If they did not want to go full on technobabble and have him spout some nonsense that is supposed to be profound in universe, they could at least have established him as skilled in the art of magical ring making. Maybe he could be wearing a ring that he made and have it be noticed by Celebrimbor. He could be modest about it, declaring it to be a mere trinket that is unworthy of an elven smith. But this gives him an in. This sets him up as having some qualifications. Without any of this, he's just some vagrant "king" who acts far too familiar with an elven lord that he only just met and is given far too much credit for extremely trivial contributions. I suppose the real problem here is the insistence on having the human "Halbrand" persona to begin with, instead of introducing him from the outset as Annatar.
Based on what happens later it may be a deliberate attempt to downplay his involvement. But this is incoherent for a number of reasons. Because as you say he should not even know about them and they are made totally out of order. And in doing it this way, they have also already established who Sauron is and that his alter ego should not be trusted. It requires some serious contrivances and questionable choices by characters to then reintroduce him as the Annatar persona and have him remain trusted by Celebrimbor at least.
Well... so now you're going into season 2 and in the beginning it might look as if they "listened" and tried to remedy at least some problems... And then before you know it, it all collapses and starts to look as if it was written by the writers who sat in some room, coked up to their gills and drunk, and just picked some names of random characters, places and events from the books, wrote them down on little pieces of paper, threw them into a bowl, shook it and then just dug out some to write each scene. It's like some crazy bingo game. I mean... you just wait:)
It doesn't feel like they are trying to copy Peter Jackson's vision, which I can appreciate. Though I also feel like there is a "too many cooks" problem, where individual visions (of set designers, of directors, of cinematographers, etc..) gets washed out in the noise of all of the corporate decisions.
I very much appreciate your comments about having an open and civilised discussion. About the only channel on here that I have seen so far expressing a positive opinion made it clear that they were not interested it any criticism, so they were seeking to create a positive echo chamber. Which on one level I cannot blame them for as there is so much mean spirited commentary that has little to do with the actual quality of the show, as well as external stuff relating to questionable responses by the cast and others to legitimate critique. But on the other it is frustrating because it makes it so much harder to talk about a subject that interests us, whether that be to praise or to criticise.
Its great to see a woman presenting this type of content. Even though we are all just human beings riding this crazy rock through space, its refreshing to hear your thoughts. Hearing thoughtful, rational discourse is a welcome thing because i feel like it represents the majority of opinions of sane adults.
I reread the istari section of the appendices last night, and it explicitly said that though Saruman spent much time in the east, and later settled in Isengard, Gandalf spent his whole time in the west of middle earth. Edit last night
Yeah, I'm one of those people who read the Silmarillion because of this show. I don't love the show, I think it's very average but it does make me want to get more invested in Middle Earth so I think it did its job.
I think the main underlying problem with "Rings of Power" is that J. D. Payne and Patrick McKay (massive respect to them for what they've accomplished) are inexperienced showrunners who didn't have the skill to structure Season 1 properly or to achieve the right balance between paying homage to Jackson's movies and doing their own thing. They are also not very good at writing "Tolkienian" dialogue, and they're in the position of presenting a story that Tolkien wrote only in hints and fragments, without the rich storehouse of dialogue and event that Jackson had to work with. I think it's very clear that RoP has the Rings made out of order to correspond with the order in which they're mentioned in the Ring-verse, which was also that in which they were presented in the prologue of the FotR movie: "Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, Nine for mortal Men doomed to die..." Payne and McKay realize, I think, that that sequence is more familiar to the general public than the actual chronological sequence Tolkien intended (with the Three coming last before the One). Due to its prominent position on the first page of many editions of LotR, the Ring-verse was the first piece of Tolkien's writing I read as a child, and I suspect that this is true of many other people. (I remember Magica De Spell saying, "One dime to rule them all, one dime to find them!" on an episode of "DuckTales," long before I read Tolkien's books or the Jackson films came out, and I still got the joke.) I don't mind Halbrand consulting with Celebrimbor before he forged the Three Rings, given that in Tolkien Celebrimbor works with Annatar for a long time on the Seven and the Nine before making the Three on his own. What did bother me in Season 1 was Halbrand touching Finrod's dagger (in Episodes 2 and 3) and the mithril ingot prior to their incorporation into the Three. In Tolkien's FotR, Elrond says, "The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them." Although this is technically true in RoP, I would have been happier if Sauron had never touched any of the materials that became part of the Three before their forging. It would convey Sauron's power better if the show acknowledged the possibility of anything he touches, even for a moment, becoming irrevocably tainted.
As soon as you mentioned the worst actress, Conan the Barbarian knock offs sprang directly to mind. You then made multiple more fanfic/b-movie type references, and I'm in complete agreement with those assessments. At the end of the day, RoP is simply a vehicle to sell more products via Amazon. "Hey, we have the best IP and we're spending (thinks of a random impressive number... places pinky finger to lip) $1Bn on it!". There's no way on earth the talent they have is worth a fraction of the remaining budget after the rights acquisition. The dealer from Trainspotting and Uncle Benjen are the biggest actors and the writers are only two steps up from actual fanfic. This is only to take Amazon a step closer to total global shopping monopoly, nothing about it resembles art by design. It's advertising.
There's definitely stuff on the series that I do like. But mostly it's just weird choices in my opinion and unnecessary mysteries and tension where there wasn't anything in the books. For Second Age Tolkien wrote the broad strokes, but there was still a lot of blanks to fill to depict in more detail how stuff could have happened, and without a need to change the story upside down. Why not show Numenor at the height of its power, slowly establishing colonies in Middle-Earth without the tensions there's now, to show the stakes are high as the fans know what should be happening at the end anyway? And to display the good relations between elves and Numenorians as they were for such a long time, to make the eventual fall seem so much higher? I get that they needed an emergency for the elves as a reason to build the elven rings first, but why invent some weird decay and tie mithril with that? Why not show a glimpes of Valinor where stuff doesn't grow old and die, and then tie that as one of the reasons for need to build the rings, to slow down the natural decaying of plants and trying to emulate Valinor in Middle-Earth, and remind more prominently that some elves are still banned from going back even if they want to. Add to this Annatar, slowly working with the elven smiths in Eregion gaining their trust and finally coming up to Celebrimbor might have been more interesting after he was turned down in Lindon. Or perhaps too slow burn?
I think part of this is the nature of the production, which is a huge budget show with a need to please the masses, and the basic idea that you can't kill off a bunch of your main characters every season. I disagree with that idea and think it's actually thematically necessary to do so in the case of Numenor, but that is the (I believe explicitly stated by the showrunners) reason. The messing around with the ring forging story is a lot tougher to explain, aside from the most obvious that they wanted to show the elven rings being used, they wanted to give Galadriel stuff to do, and they wanted a Sauron mystery box.
You're pretty spot on with your take on RoP. It seems you may be holding back on some of your options and I can't blame you. Most of it remains me of that part in Jurassic Park where Ellie has to dig through that pile of dino 💩 to find the problem that's making it sick but the problem was there the whole time and now you're now trying to dig for something good to find about RoP. Weeeelllll... that's my take anyways.
We are all hoping that mysterious wizard is NOT Gandalf. If they make him into a Blue Wizard, it might just end up being the only good decision the writers made.
Three Blames for the Directors of every episode, Seven for the Producers in their towers of glass, Nine for Scriptwriters happy to tell not show, And Blame for the Showrunners more bad than badass In Amazon Prime where the Money lies. One Show to ruin Tolkien, One Show to snub him, One Show to insult his work, and in the making scorn him In Amazon Prime where the Money lies.
Well done for trying to consider this as a stand alone work of fiction. I think though that this show has been sold by almost everyone involved as a Lord of the Rings story ("back to the book, back to the book") so any criticism of where it fails as a LotR story is valid. However, I also think that if this was a generic fantasy world it remains a poor show.
If you know Community - the show. Watch the Beginner Pottery episode (s1ep19) with RoP in mind. For me its somehow a better version of the first season of Rings of Power. It has at least better versions of surprisingly many similar elements. Spoilers for community: Pottery VS Smithing The villain is an imposter. 2 Backflashes to a familymember giving a speech that shapes the narrative... while the second one is fake. A great scene of finding out about the villain in the same fashion - by studying his history. A better way to word the "the sea is always right" The hero close on the border of becoming the villain - and crossing it Better drowning sequences... more dramatic I would say. and probably more...
I couldn't agree more. Of all the things that I struggled with in terms of this series (and it is already starting again with season 2 and I'm only on the second episode) the biggest one is that there are too many characters and too many points they spend considerable time on that have little if anything to do with the overall story plot. My hope was that they are seeds for season 2, and they might be, but it creates confusion in season 1, for me anyway. I can't tell which one I am more disappointed with: this series, The Wheel of Time, or the Willow series. I guess the most important thing is that all of them disappointed me a lot, which is sad.
The worst part of it “feeling like bad first draft fanfic” is that I have literally read better fanfic than this. I can list multiple ao3 authors who would have written a better story than this. You’ve hit on the thing that baffles and infuriates me most about this show: how the hell did something so utterly amateur and full of “baby’s first novel” level writing mistakes get made like this??? It makes me so sad that it has the elements of something good and none of the execution. We could have had something so much better!
@@AlaniTheScriptMage right like there’s nothing wrong with fanfic, even bad fanfic, or with making beginner mistakes. But beginner writers should not be writing the most expensive tv show of a beloved franchise ever made! Please Amazon hire some ao3 writers next time 😂
Thank you for taking the time to do this, and for your insights. I did watch the entire first season when it was released, and I very much disliked it. I am a huge fan of Tolkien, and I have read a lot of his writings, and what angered me most was The seemingly blatant disregard of his legendarium. The bad writing, wasted time, and illogical plot holes, etc. were all just icing on the cake for me. That being said, I have watched the premiere of season two, and I wanted to share something that has helped me immensely. I have chosen to enjoy this show for what it is, namely a fantasy epic that in my mind has no connection to the original body of work. It’s amazing how much I can just enjoy the ride, so to speak, with that new lens through which I can watch this series. Don’t get me wrong, I will still enjoy hearing your thoughts on the different points regarding the lore, but for me, I’m actually enjoying this show much more now. In my opinion, this season at least is moving a lot more than season one did, so just that is a huge improvement. Enjoy this new season, and especially the great conversations with your coworker!
One thing I liked is the actual locations, I feel like they nailed the cities but its what's actually happening in these places that sucks. I actually like the idea of the Dwarves singing to the mountain too, also the two trees in the introduction, but there's too much wrong to take seriously. I'll watch it all the through though out of curiosity, I do look forward to seeing the nine and hope they improve the Numenor scenes as they're the weakest part of the show so far for me.
I never read the Hobbit nor LOTR before watching RoP S1. I hated the show so much, I rage read through the books including the Silmirillion. Now I hate the show even more
I have to say I enjoyed your perspective while rewatching this season. I try to find a variety of opinions on media coverage to build a better picture of what I'm looking at. All too often, a reviewer being too far to one side or the other tends to ignore mentioning the strengths or weaknesses of the work. As for Rings of Power, I think it's a mess that needed more time with the editors before they started filming. That and it has too many storylines that it kept jumping between for folks to really get into it. Its telling that one of the better received episodes had the least amount of plots in it and the second season seems to be limiting the number of storylines they're pursuing per episode.
I understand that the change of the order of the forging of the rings is jarring, but I also think the writers knew the philosophy of Tolkien’s world that the best works of craftsmen were their first works, and they cannot be replicated as wonderfully again. The Complaint of Mim The Dwarf, the destruction of the trees not being able to be made again, etc…so I think the showrunners thought, “Well the three rings are the greatest of all the rings except the one, so they should be made first according to the rules.” I believe this was their approach to the orcs as well. They can mate with humans in LoTR under Saruman, so obviously they have worth and value of their own, and they wanted to explore that. I am not saying this to make anyone like it, just to help people understand that the writers are focusing on something else in Tolkien’s lore and creating something they think would reach its logical conclusion. Why would the elves make rings of power for other races before themselves? Insanity. 😏 😂 Where Tolkien parallels the secrecy of the three with the secrecy of the one, the RoP writers parallel other aspects of the ring making, like introducing Elrond, Galadriel and the Stranger, presumably Gandalf, at the same time as the making of the three.
And when it comes to elven magic, I think Galadriel herself made it seem very scientific - magic is just something they do because it’s scientifically part of the world. Lembas bread? Some may call it magic, but that’s just how the elements work when combined together in a certain way at a certain time with certain words spoken over it, maybe. Lol. I believe that’s why the showrunners are making Celebrimbor’s work a bit more scientific sounding as well. Not to mention the pupils of Aule all share a very mechanical element to their work. AND when the Valar and Maiar first entered the world and played in it like a giant sandbox, they were discovering the things in it and what each could do, and figuring out how to use it. The Valar and Maiar had to study middle earth before they could become eternal professors in it.
Yes everyone knows craftsman do their best work before any practice, their 1st work is always best you know. No we don't know that, because it's wrong tf lol. It's backwards and stupid as hell to all but you.
Well maybe the writers should've focused on the script instead of "focusing on something else in Tolkiens lore". Write for the story you're trying to tell, don't change what Tolkien wrote in order to achieve some internal consistency in your own headcanon. "Why would the elves make rings for other races before themselves?" Unless I'm mistaken, they made the rings for themselves, then sauron took them and handed them out to the other races. The great rings were never made by the elves under the assumption they were going to be made for other races. I mean no disrespect but this seems like an awful amount of cope to justify a poorly written show
what is this ABOUT? that is the problem the writers do not know what this is about beside references to jackson's work and tolkien's book title. if rings of power think/say this is tolkien or about lotr they do not know what is tolkien or lotr...this is sauron and his many orcs many adventures in middle-earth fanfic..lol
I was so annoyed with the "reimagining" of Galadriel and where is Celeborn? She said he went to fight Morgoth but that would have been over 1,000 years ago so where has he been hanging out this whole time?
Why would anyone still give these showrunners breaks? This show is attrocious on many levels and I'm not even a true Tolkien fan. 'I don't mind!' Why? This show is trash and trash shouldn't be tolerated or encouraged even in the least degree!
I still blame the Tolkien estate for forcing the changes because they wanted to have it all by licensing the world and the characters but not the stories.
Eh, as she pointed out in an earlier video, even with only having the rights to the hobbit and LOTR they could have made something much better than this with competent writing. Can you imagine this actual mess these writers would have made with the actual Silmarillion?
@@chuckshingledecker2216 I agree, it could have been better. It could have even been like the book if the Tolkien estate had said "make it like the book". Unfortunately the Tolkien estate refused to allow it to be made like the book. Before a single frame had been shot. 😕
Amazon should have made a show about the Blue Wizards in the East. Tolkien didn't write much about them, so there's lots of room for Amazon to create their own story. But that wouldn't have had so many opportunities for movie references.
I really don't want to say it but it feels like you're being just a little pretentious. I'm a huge Tolkien nerd as well and I absolutely love the show. Is it 100% accurate to the books? No, it's probably closer to 50% accurate if I'm being fair. Being what they had to work with to create a show that is NOT another remake of the LotR or The Hobbit and to attempt to tell the story of the second age without the complete rights to the material, which lets be honest even Tolkien didn't fully flesh out himself, I think they did a fantastic job. The imagery, the atmosphere, the whimsical feel of Tolkien, the music, and the acting are all top notch. I'm just glad we are getting SOMETHING.
Respectfully, I disagree. But I'm happy you feel that way! I am in no way doing this to yuck other people's yum. My issues with the show are predominantly writing structure based. I would not have minded the lore inconsistencies if I felt that the writing was strong. In my opinion, it's not strong at all, but if you feel differently and the story resonates with you, I think that's great.
I view it like they paid a billion dollars to play with action figures. It's just straight up not Tolkien. And it's written to like the dumbest in the room... it's like they can't trust the audience to think for themselves. Season 2 is more of the same. I was so bored with it. And the cuts.....more crazy cuts.
Supporting this show just doesn't feel right to me after all the years of joy Tolkiens work has given me... And I know he probly would of disliked the P.J movies but it cant be denied they were made with love for their craft and for the story they were adapting... This show however just feels gross.. the people making it seem to hate us for being deep into the lore and obviously don't hold any passion for the story... There was plenty of room for them to be creative with their own additions to it but why ruin what was told by Tolkien? It was a great story!! and they have totally F'd it by the end of S1...
You do a great job with these critiques. RoP is an utter, irredeemable failure. Their prime directive should have been, at the very least, do NOT write anything that directly contradicts Tolkien in a fundamental way (e.g. Elvish fading being due to lack of mithril). Such things go against the very core of his creation. They could have told the Fall of Numenor story well, if they had hired top-notch scriptwriters and actors. Who knows where all the money went, but it doesn't show up anywhere. The only good thing about the show is that some of the landscape shots are nice. Literally nothing else about the show is any good, at all. The Fall of Numenor is the kind of story that's been done before, it seems almost like a Greek tragedy, or Shakespearean, or biblical. Tell it like that. Ignore the other stuff. Watch shows like "I, Claudius" to see what wonders can be done with a good script, good actors, a sound stage, and essentially zero special effects.
@@VidZero LOL... that she cannot understand there was joke involved... even when LMAO is included... speaks volumes on the limited mindset involved when speaking her opinions.
@@AlaniTheScriptMage Alrighty, I only posted as I could feel the struggle of you trying to balance frustration and fairness. It took so long for the show to get any kind of traction with a bunch of cringe sprinkled around. A roll of the dice by Amazon that the audience would stick around long enough for it to become interesting IMO. You have pointed out many things that myself and friends had discussed. I am just catching up on your video's and enjoying them. Your editing is fun BTW. You were pretty clear at end of this vid just how you felt and you are again correct that sarcasm or texting in general can be taken differently (lost in translation). So keep up the great uploads and your PoV (plz and ty) Also, I enjoyed your S02E01 vid!! Starting to think they should have you on as an advisor! With that, take care!
I've just watched your run-through of all the episodes of the Amazon series. I've seen a number of youtube videos which went over some of the more egregious plot holes in the series as a shole, and it's nice to have someone focus on it one episode at a time. I was a big fan of the _"Lord of the Rings"_ book trilogy when growing up, and even read it once a year from 5th grade to my senior year in High School. I *bought* the Silmarillion but never got around to reading the whole thing. My older sister is much more of a Tolkien fanatic than I am, and has read the Silmarillion as well as some of the other books. So far I haven't heard or seen anything about this Amazon series that encourages me to watch it. And I hope my sister never sees it, because she's enough of a Tolkien lore fanatic that she was upset with a few of the choices that *Peter Jackson* made. And I do mean *UPSET* with the choices 🙂 - don't bring up the character of Faramir as depicted in the movie! But in watching the reactions to this show and to some other (unrelated) movies, I've come to the conclusion that the movie industry now has a lot of screen writers who didn't read many books when they were growing up. They have some idea of what a *movie* should "look like", but they don't really know how to write a *story.* Maybe some of the problem is that there are too many writers, and some of them are writing their scenes without any idea of what others are writing. It doesn't matter too much to me what the problem is. The part that annoys me is the attitude of "We've bought the rights to make a story in this IP (because that's all it is to them), and therefore all fans of this IP must like whatever story we write". It's like they think they're buying a fandom, instead of just the rights to reference the characters of an pre-existing fictional world.
Wait... so you're making an opinion based off of NOT watching the show. That is so illogical... I don't even know what to say. It's one thing to be critical and annoyed about creative choices but to state things based on NOT experiencing the movies. That's ridiculous.
@@captainKbobkeeshan - So I'm somehow *required* to watch the show, which Amazon will then point to and say "look how popular it is!". There are *many* movies and TV shows which I have decided to not watch without actually watching them. I'm not asking anyone else to avoid it, I'm saying that *I* am avoiding it. And yes, I can make that judgement-call based on watching multiple short reviews of the show (such as this series of videos), and word-of-month from my own personal friends. I don't need your permission to make up my opinion.
And while it is supposed to be art, it is most certainly being paid for as a product to sell. That is ultimately their job and objectively they failed at that. I was excited for it for any of the previews tentatively and I do wish that it had been good.
I can't separate the two. I've enjoyed Peter Jackson's work on The LOTR and the hobbit, this is dogshit by comparison and just puts mud on the franchise. Huge starwars fan also and the recent movies and series have done the same to that franchise..
Fan fiction? Tolkien's writings of the Second Age were not (excepting the incomplete Aldarion and Erendis) narratives, with lines of dialogue and more or less continuous narrative. In other words, not a novel, and not subject to adaptation in the usual sense. So, it was inevitable that this would be 'fan fiction', although that is a loaded term with connotations of amateurism that has replaced other terms like 'pastiche' in the modern day. Since we see Tolkien's world as having a history (what Tolkien called 'feigned history'), the most useful analogy must be the writing of a historical novel. In the case of the Second Age, such a novel would have a number of original characters, probably humble characters of human origin, whose lives impinge repeatedly on the great events of the Age. Galadriel, Celebrimbor, and the others would be on stage, but they would still be 'mythical' characters as they are in Lord of the Rings. Amazon could have done this, and done it really well, and it would still have been 'fan fiction'. But Amazon's 'historical novel' is just a mess at every level: as if a Revolutionary War story brought in the Pilgrims and young Abe Lincoln because the audience expects to see them in an American historical; and had them all using modern slang. The term 'fan fiction' cannot even be applied, since fan fiction usually concerns itself with staying close (if anything, too close) to Tolkien's words.
I use fan fiction in this case specifically in regard to its tone and feel. It would technically be classified as fan fiction regardless of its quality, but my point is it *feels* like something that I could read on some corner of fanfiction.net and this level of production should not feel that unprofessional. In some ways, I feel bad even making that comparison. Plenty of fanfic writers put significantly more care and quality into their work than this show has.
@@AlaniTheScriptMage I would think you should feel bad as casting fanfaction as bad. As that is a bias already established with that notion. As with many things (if not all), they can be bad or good. Fanfiction can be good. It can be really good. Or excellent. But using it for comparison tools to make something seem bad because fanfiction is bad is problematic and insulting. Unless you had said "bad" fanfiction. But then why even bother using the word fanfiction.
I have read great fanfictions that are superior to this show, but I stand by the comparison. Not as an insult, but as a fact. Fanfiction is taking an existing property and creating your own unofficial extension. The thing about fanfiction is that you aren't actually beholden to follow anything established by the original author. This leads to interesting premises that you would never see in the source material and in many ways that can be fun. Rings of power feels like a fanfiction because it is forging a path that, at least in my eye, does not even try to feel like something that would actually exist in the source material. This is what I mean by "it feels like fanfiction."
The call backs to the other movies is just a crutch when it is a weak script. Always advocate like what you like, my statement is "It's not my flavor of stupid" for my not good enjoyments.
@@AlaniTheScriptMage Have at it. I've never liked the Guilty Pleasure moniker since it implies it's wrong. If farts make you giggle, then giggle away. Just don't fart in my general direction. Enjoy your harmless joy.
IT IS A BAD FANFICTION, yes amazing scenarios and fx´s, but, BAD FAN FICTION nonetheless. After reading (for the third time) The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion and starting to read Tolkien as what really is, filosophy, you can find insulting the RoP, the "woke" culture don't understand that there are somethings that should not mess with, but when you hear something like "Tolkien was racist" I can help but throw up. Hahahaha Isildur´s sister! What a joke!
If they amputated the harfoots and numenor s1 could have had a chance. They poorly utilized their resources and time. Pacing was so slow and not enough happened. Blitzed thru stuff we shoulda seen, and lingering on stupid filler noone cares about. Priorities are just ass backwards. 100 with your sentiment on it feeling like a first draft. Its juat sloppy. Did you notice how many times people would respond but the response doesnt even answer the question?
It was terrible. It was terribly terrible. This show is not the most trash thing I ever saw, but considering the budget and the ''production value'', it's the worst by far. Everything sucks. The costume, the acting, the dialogues, the story. Everything.
Everything is wrong with this show, the portrayal of every major character is way off. The casting is terrible, the writing is appalling. The stranger is definitely Gandalf. The writers most certainly are not knowledgeable about Tolkien's work in any way. They watched the movies that's about it.
Hi there! I've now watched all your review videos and I have so many opinions. XD There are lots of things I agree with you on in terms of flaws from the perspective of storylines or characters, but I feel like my main gripes are a little different. My biggest one actually is Celebrimbor. Cannot stand him and I'm so sorry to the actor because I'm sure he's doing what he can, and I'm aware that you can go the nerdy no people skills smith master since we know next to nothing about him as a person BUT. I'm sorry, this is Fëanor's grandson? To me it feels like he has no shred of the aura of any of the Fëanorions, lease of all Fëanor himself. Where's even a hint of that charisma that motivated an entire people to leave their homes and go fight a Vala to avenge their murdered High-King, the Trees, and get back their Silmarils? There is not a moment in the show where he feels truly competent. We get told he's such a great smith etc but to me it never feels like it and that's so sad for me personally because I LOVE Celebrimbor's story, his whole context or where he's from and what he does. Anyway this sounds very negative but I actually don't mind a lot of even the things other people hate. XD I don't mind the whole Sauron Galadriel thing because we know that she's canonically super ambitious and proud and tempted by this kind of power. It makes sense for Sauron to try and enlist her because it would open a million doors for him. Do I like the full on shot where they're screaming at each other? No. XD But I don't mind the idea itself at all. I think my biggest problem with people absolutely hating on everything the show does is that Tolkien's words are taken as literal gospel even though the Silmarillion itself is a canonical retelling of events. The narrator is unreliable because it's meant to be read as from an in universe source with hindsight and bias and glossing over of details. If you actually dig into the details of certain things and how they realistically might have happened instead of relying on a glossed over version, you realise that some things shouldn't really be taken at face value. It's in parts a fairy tale even in a fantastic universe. And I think it's unfair to dismiss any and every attempt of working around that (even if I don't agree with all the choices the show made). Anyway I could go into so much more detail here but I guess this is long enough. 😅 Would be super open to discuss more though with anyone who also cannot shut up about this topic. ^^
Which bits are covered by the idea that the Silm is fallible, though? The prologue boils everything down to "Morgoth killed the trees so we went after him, and did a war" which is obviously missing (all of the) context, but you can get away with it. A lot of the issues are later events and character stuff that I don't think falls under "unreliable narrator" territory, eg Gandalf, the Balrog, Celeborn, fading/mithril, Finrod vowing to kill Sauron (this requires completely changing the Beren and Luthien story which I think goes beyond false reportage given the importance of that to Tolkien), etc. On Galadriel, I think the plot actually does disservice to her desire for power, which doesn't even come into it prior to the Sauron "proposal". There's never a sense that this character might take the offer, because her sole stated purpose has been to hunt her brother's killer, who is the person making it. Where's the dilemma? It's like if the Empire Strikes Back had Vader make the offer of ruling the galaxy with Luke, but he's still just the guy who killed his dad. The trouble with a lot of this stuff is it works backwards from (largely movie) LotR scenes and attempts to provide an "origin", and the whole Sauron and Galadriel story is them doing this for the photonegative ring offer when it doesn't need it. But yes it is fun getting deeper into all this stuff, I tend to enjoy the picking at the bones a lot more than the show itself!
You put your finger on the point but may not realize it. You keep saying “$1bn production”. Who says that? Amazon? Why do we keep repeating that line for them when what we see on the screen is obviously not even close to that.
You cannot expect better dialogue than Tolkien such as, “I am good”, without spending millions of dollars. When they were writing the scripts in crayon, obviously, Amazon had to dramatically increase the budget to allow for all the crayons that were eaten.
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The greatest smith in Middle Earth had to be told that it is possible to mix metals.
I was talking about this with a friend, wondering what the writers were thinking and…I think that both with the elves’ hope that they would create something huge like the sun and moon like a great lamp in a tower plus an obsession with the “perfection” of Valinor…I think they wanted to focus on purity and not combining elements.
Now was this obvious? No. But that’s the only explanation for Celebrimbor thinking he shouldn’t combine mithril with anything.
@Deathclaw.By.Design Aule is in Valinor, not in Middle Earth.
@@mrs.manrique7411 The conversating between Halbrand and Celabrimbor goes as;
Halbrand: Why don't you use alloy?
Celabrimbor: The amount would dilute its unique qualities.
Halbrand: Why don't you use the right alloy?
Celabrimbor: °o°
@Deathclaw.By.Design Me: One World Trade Center is the tallest building in America
You: The tallest building is Burj Khalifa
Me: I said America
You: Yeah, but Burj Khalifa is the tallest building in the world, and America is in the world, too.
@@lunafencoven That's a sick burn.
I stumbled on your video on complete accident but loved every episode break down you did! I'm on the side that hates what this show did to Tolkien's work, but will never talk down on anyone who enjoys watching it either. Totally agree, that anyone who can watch it should PLEASE PLEASE read the books.
Yes, I am very happy there are some people getting into the Silmarillion through this show. It is a wholesome bit of good that makes me smile.
It may come as a bit of a surprise to discover that I have friends who largely enjoyed the Lord of the Rings (reading the books that is) and despite several attempts found the Silmarillion as dull as dishwater and were never able to finish it. I have read the Lord of the Rings at least 15 times over the years and the Silmarillion at least a half dozen…I love Tolkien but I don’t really care if someone interprets it poorly because it does not change my relationship with the books *at all*. I might be a bit sad that those adapters have not realized a vision that jives with my own but no one is pointing a gun at my head and making me watch them.
For the most part I have zero patience for Tolkien ‘Tru-fans’ who wring their hands and spend ridiculous amounts of time and energy decrying stuff like ‘The Rings of Power’. It’s not that hard to do…if you watch any of it…find that you don’t like it…Stop Watching. Problem solved. Tolkien has not been *ruined*. Nothing has changed except that some people made a thing adjacent to something you like and it displeased you. The End.
The irony is that these very same people often perform staggering feats of pretzel logic to justify still liking the dumpster fire that was the ‘Hobbit’ trilogy. I endured the first film, liked about 10 percent of it and was done. I didn’t need to watch the remaining films to fuel my annoyance at what Jackson was resorting to and moved on.
I hung in there for a couple (maybe three?) episodes of the Rings of Power and just found it rather dull and misguided. I stopped watching. Problem solved.
The outrageous zealotry of those ‘Trufans’ tripping over themselves to eviscerate stuff like tRoP is kind of creepy and weird.
@@Steppeponytail You're completely right, "just don't watch it" is what most people are doing guaranteed. But they are allowed to make fun of it 😆. We do live in a meme culture for better or worse. I for one don't follow anything of this show, but I get spammed with ads and suggested content about all of it since I follow LotR content. The internet will internet. Just log out if its annoying.
"Feels like a badly written fanfic"
Thank you! That is exactly what I thought when I rage watched the entire season, purely so I could complain about it online.
For the price they paid for this show, there is zero excuse for how bad it is. They have market research, they have test screenings, they had Tolkien scholars on hand, until they fired them for constantly saying "this isn't Tolkien." This should have been the most epic of stories ever made. Instead, we got a soulless parody.
What are you talking about? What fake news sites do you people get this info from? Simon Tolkien is still the consultant for the show, and If you're talking about Tom Shippey he was fired for breaching an NDA and had nothing to do with creative differences.
Amazon's The Shillmarillion is if CW made a LOTR show.
I'd add a counterpoint to "there's nothing wrong with liking it."
I think there is. It is objectively bad craftmanship, whether you like this kind of slop or not. People need to understand that they deserve better crafted stories, with team of creators that want to make something worthy of love and attention (not saying that everyone on the team is incompetent of course). By "letting people like what they want to like" without striving to reject the horrendous products we're given, you're indirectly protecting this kind of behaviour. They will continue to produce slops like RoP because we, as customers and fans (old and new), are too indulgent with them.
It is not okay to be disrespectful over it, but it definitely need to change, and it can if people start voicing their opinions unapologetically. I know it is nice and safe to say "like what you want to like", but it is part of the problem in my opinion. Not everything is unredeemable in this show, but the vast, vast majority of it is and the people in charge need to be called out on it so that things can improve. This is tough love, but people deserve good stories.
Part of the problem is that the small but shrill group of bigots-the ones who were screaming 'woke' a year before the first episode, and _still_ think that they are clever to use the term 'Guyladriel'-hijacked any serious criticism of the show. Amazon's surrogates (e.g., cast members) were able to use this to deflect _all_ criticisms of the show with an illogical "the haters are just racist and sexist." Any thoughtful discussion of the wretched screenwriting or occasionally cheap-looking craftsmanship (oh, those Númenorean armor costumes) were, and still are, submerged in the shouting.
Hear, hear!
Perhaps, but on an individual level, it has been my experience that very rarely can you convince someone to not like something. You can give them logical arguments; you can give them passionate pathos. It makes no difference. Shaming individuals for their enjoyment of poorly crafted stories does little but hinder beneficial discussion. All one can do is be honest about one's own opinions and create an environment that allows others to be honest. Hearing your opinion likely will not change someone else's mind about the story that they like, but if your points resonate, they may look at the next incompetent story they come across with a new perspective.
People *do* deserve good stories and the people in charge *do* need to be called out when they feed us bad ones, but directing ire toward the audience of bad writing is a fool's errand. I prefer to offer my perspective on the writing quality of a story and let others come to their own conclusions.
@@AlaniTheScriptMage That's why i wrote that it is not okay to be disrespectful about it. I'm not saying that we should shame anyone that like it. But going "It is objectively a bad show for X and Y, you deserve better" is far from shaming someone.I'm saying that we should tell people that it is okay to have standards and demand better stories. This is the kind of commentary that could bring people to educate themselves about the craft and/or hobby they devote time and money into.
@@EryomisI agree with what both you and @AlaniTheScriptMage wrote. A silver lining not to be ignored is the fact that Amazon now has to sit through five gruelingly unprofitable seasons of ROP which should give a lot of people, both internal and external to Amazon, a lot of time to ponder the key successes and mistakes of this show. Those of us dissatisfied by the grand creative injustice of shows such as the ROP find it far easier speaking out about what we don’t like than coming up with actionable alternatives that would lead to real quality craftsmanship in today’s environment where we are pitted against corporations wielding billions of dollars XD. My only hope is that some powerful people with abundant creativity and creative integrity are able to reverse some of this damaging flippancy soon. Cheers guys, I appreciate the refreshingly respectful discourse
I am one whose all for the wandering "stranger" being Gandalf. I think it's more significant for casual fans to know that Gandalf is essentially an Angel who has been a guide & guardian of the Elves ever since Elves came into being, than to cling to the timeline of him taking on the Gandalf form & alias in the 3rd age rather than the 2nd. I know that, in the alias guise of Gandalf, the Angelic Ainur Olorin arrives in the 3rd Age, HOWEVER, what is also "true" ( within the lore, of course ) is that Gandalf, in his actual identity of Olorin the Ainur, has been a guide, protector & defender of the Elves ( and later of Men ) since the Elves came into being: "...he loved the Elves ( but ) he came among them unseen, or in form as one of them..." It's also been established that he was one of those Ainur sent to protect the Elves in the Age of THe Stars from the overflow from the dread war between Valinor and Utumno. I think casual viewers SHOULD be helped to understand that Olorin ( Gandalf ) is an Angelic being who has been defending against the evils of Melkor/Morgoth and Melkor's/Morgoth's vassal Ainur spirits ( Sauron, Balrogs etc ) since the beginning, and putting the Istari in the 2nd age is a good way to do that.
" The whole show does not feel professional" Exactly! Great video!
The recurring problem with Rings of Power-and it continues into the second season-is the utter failure to understand or portray times (and distances), greater and lesser. The Elves had a deadline we first heard in the first episode: Spring. But if you have a ticking clock, you have to show the clock ticking. How long until Spring? How much time has passed when we see the forges constructed? When Halbrand and Galadriel have arrived in Eregion, how much time is left? We are constantly told that this is urgent (and yet Elrond and Durin _walked_ from Lindon to Khazad-dûm. With elves carrying a stone slab. Because they have no horses nor carts? At least Lindon gets horses in the second season). When Celebrimbor is ready to forge the Rings, he is told that it is too late, and Eregion should be 'disbanded' (some of the tone-deaf dialogue we all love so much). So yes, the Three are forged in great haste (hours? days? surely not weeks), but the deadline is artificial in the sense that the writers could have made it anything they wanted, since the whole tree-is-dying is just an invention to create the deadline. And by being vague ("Our time runs short … shorter than you know.") even the urgency of this deadline is muddled, so there is no tension or even a suspension-of-disbelief "oh my goodness will they succeed or will the elves have to leave?" worry. The writers are inept. Ticking clocks are not exactly a new and demanding device-there was a whole TV series built on it-and yet these writers completely bungled its use here.
That is an excellent point!
Let’s go for season 2 😂
Its even worse! I didnt even know that was possible.
Howwww? Do tell
@@patriciaa65 Irish Hobbits running around Rhun with not Gandalf and not Saruman hanging out in the desert as well. Its a god damn disgrace.
They recon half the stuff they did in season one. Its just bad and I'm done with everything about this show.
@@purefoldnz3070 You should not reveal your hand this easily. S2 so far is OBJECTIVELY better than S1, but that is the worst thing for you isn't it, because you actually _want_ it to fail. You have gone so hard for this being the worst thing since H*tler, that your ego will not accept anything good this show have done, or might to in the future.
It's like watching Brexiters or Trump voters from 2016 who refused to admit they fucked up.
one of my gripes is that in this show, elves don't feels like eves, they're just humans with pointy ears, there's nothing special about them
Since Peter Jackson' Lotr trilogy came out I have read The Silmarillion twice. There is such a depth and wealth of epic stories there. But I understand that the creators of Rings of power wanted it to be not too far removed from what people learned from Lotr. I hope one day someone capable will bring its stories to the screen.
Thank you for your level-headed approach to the Rings of power series. I had been waiting somlong to see ans would have been easy to dismiss it entirely, oug of disappointment. But I think it is worthwhile to sift through the wreckage to find the good, and to purpose how it could have been done better, to do justice to the source material.
So, thank you again for your analysis and insights.
From what I understand, the studio doesn't own the rights to the silmarillion, but they do own the rights to the appendices in RotK, so they're treading a fine intellectual property line.
I mean, they spent a billion dollars to make a show of a story that has its own book, but they didn't want to pay for it. So yeah. If it wasn't mentioned in the appendices, they can't use it.
I thought RoP was bad as a tv series, period. Not only bad adaptation. And then I see newspaper articles praising it as the second coming. I don't get. Why? It's not that hard to see how bad it is.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts ^^
Won’t someone think of the Orcs!?
Is that the one with the burning horse?
Truly epic storytelling.
In fact, S1 was such epic storytelling they had to spend 3 eps of S2 trying to fix the mistakes. And failing. Huzzah!
I haven’t watched this show at all because, honestly, i don’t need the aggravation in my life. But I’m loving watching you battling through it, trying to make it make a skerrick of sense 😂
Ready to watch season 2 with you, Alani! My experience so far is that the new season makes me sleepy as much as season 1 did 😂
Here at the end of this little journey, I’m so glad I tuned in and followed your commentary to the end. Thank you for letting take this little journey with you.
To your point that a lot of the plot lines felt superfluous to the main plot, I think that’s because this season mostly functions to set the stage for the following seasons. Already in the first three episodes of S2 we’re seeing plot payoffs from S1. Maybe you don’t think they function as well as they could or should. But I personally think the show is getting better. Hope to see you give some commentary on the new episodes.
The dwarves plot: this is going to have so many ramifications this season. I’m calling it. Yeah, they were able to make the three elven rings with the little shard of mithril, but they’ll need more for the dwarves and human rings. So that partnership is happening. Plus Celebrimbor has invented moon runes now and the gates of Durin are going to be made, and I’ll bet my bottom dollar that’s where the Eregion refugees go after Eregion is sacked. Galadriel will lead them through Moria and establish lothlorien on the other side of the mountains for the survivors of Eregion. The Numenor plot is plodding along. It’s clumsy, because again I don’t think the show runners really understand what makes the Numenoreans tick. I just hope they do a halfway decent job. The harfoot plot is clearly going to connect to the east and how these two wizard help or hinder Sauron’s influence there. I’m so sold that they’re blue wizards and that the similarities to Gandalf and Saruman are only there for fan service and/or misdirection.
I don’t know if you’ve started on the new season yet, but the anatar/Celebrimbor dynamic is off to a GREAT start.
Agreed on Celebrimbor, mostly. I always imagined him more youthful, muscular, masculine, etc. I like this actor’s gravitas, but they could have costumed him to make him a bit more valiant and less old and sagely. But maybe our preconceived ideas of him from fan art and from shadow of Mordor/war have colored our imaginations of him and this may actually be a bit more faithful a portrayal.
Yeah, for us book fans, the sauron mystery box was solved either when we see Halbrand at the Numenorean forge, or for the dense among us, here, when he calls his contribution a “gift.” That being said, I watched this season with a friend who has only seen the Jackson movies and has never read a word of Tolkien, and by this point his was still clueless to the identity of sauron. So when the cultists call the stranger sauron, he was like 🤯
So the plot does work for the causal fan. When it’s revealed that Halbrand and not the stranger is actually sauron, he was like double 🤯🤯
I was a little irked by the change of order of the rings being made, but at least they kept to the lore that sauron had no direct involvement in the creation of the elven rings. Elrond knows Halbrand isn’t who he says he is, but doesn’t know yet who he is. Why Galadriel keeps it hidden until S2? Who knows. That wasn’t the best writing choice.
I lowkey love the idea of Sauron falling for Galadriel and trying to win her to his side. I’m also glad that there was never any real chance of that happening. Galadriel May have started to feel some affection for Halbrand, but it was never enough to sway her to sauron’s side. Galadriel is supposed to be one of the most beautiful beings in middle earth. Much like the silmarils making Melkor cry, the idea of sauron crushing on Galadriel, someone he can never truly have, just kind of works for me. Seeing sauron as something more than a cartoon villain who just wants to ruin the world, someone who wants a partner by his side who is genuinely good, someone to ensure that he is actually a benevolent dictator, makes him more compelling. Of course we know there is no such thing as a benevolent dictator, and if Galadriel has accepted, it would have corrupted her more than it would have sanctified him. But his desire for her in this way - not romantically or sexually, but as an equal partner in rule (which by the way works with Galadriel’s canon character as she went to middle earth to rule her own realm the way she wanted to) makes him a more multidimensional villain that he typically is portrayed as.
Thanks again for creating a space for these conversations 🙂
Thank you for your thoughtful analysis! Although I don't quite agree, I think that is a reasonable stance to have.
I will be reviewing Season 2! Episode 1 will be up imminently:)
Very glad I stumbled upon your videos. I love discussing shows and movies, seeing what works, what doesn’t, and why. I look forward to seeing your thoughts on season 2.
Long time Tolkien nerd here myself. You nailed alot of my sentiments about the show myself. There are some parts that I find interesting and have pondered it myself and other parts that I just try to ignore lore breaking stuff. The Wheel of Time show is another one that I have many many problems with and if you are a fan of that universe you should try a similar feedback series with that :D
I would really love you to do a similar analysis to The Acolyte and Ashoka TV shows, just fpr an in-depth review of story structure, plot points and scripting.
Cannot wait for you to see the Sauron flashback in season 2. It's so silly. Also the contrivances to keep Celebrimbor in the dark are *chef's kiss*
I really enjoy your videos, i love the world that Tolkien build and hate what they've done
Yeah this show feels more like I'm walking through a gallery of Tolkien lore rather than witnessing a story unfold
After watching all of your Season 1 videos I just want to say that I am happy to have found a voice that has articulated many of the same thoughts and feelings on the pros and cons of this show that I have myself. I think you have struck a nice balance between wanting to give this show a chance to stand on its own terms, and expressing your utter dismay at the unnecessary harm done to Tolkien's own historical timeline and characterizations. Galadriel ought to be one of the greatest figures in the entire legendarium, both for her power and for her wisdom, and she has been written as her antithesis. I appreciate the nod to the storyline of Adar though, because I agree that this was such a lost opportunity to tell a story that is consistent with the canon, but still goes in unforseen directions. I am a little afraid to start watching Season 2. So far, I have resisted the temptation, but I will probably succumb.
Really enjoyed this review series! Looking forward to your Season 2 videos.
The show should be in the schoolbooks of aspiring writers as the best example of all the mistakes that can be made and everything that does not work.
Please go right into season 2, episode 1. Go on, do it for us!🎉
Your summary of it being someone's fanfic and that the show kept spinning its wheels on something that we didn't need to see is spot on. Heck, the whole Southlands plot is either fully unnecessary, or could happen AFTER the other rings are forged, Sauron kickstarting Mount Doom in order to forge the One Ring. Sure, it would still a lore-break of sorts (Sauron settled in Mordor in 1000 Second Age, and forged the One around 1600 Second Age), but it would tie much better into the overall narrative. And it is not as if they care about the timeline anyway... Instead, we got the Elven Occupation Forces that have been oppressing the locals over something their ancestors did at least hundreds if not thousands of years ago. Way to establish your good guys.
Being a fanfic isn't a bad thing. The problem with RoP is that the creators don't really care about the source material. It's not a work of love, it's made for money, pure and simple. I would love a fanfiction tv series set in Middle-Earth if it was good.
I was so excited to see early days sauron as I am a big fan of manipulative villains that are always 5 steps ahead and plan for everything, but this show depicts sauron as a usless winy sometime powerless sometimes powerful person who has most of his plans handed to him. Most of the bad things that have or are happening in the show aren't even because of sauron the elves light fading is the aftermath of Morgoth Mordoros creation was adar most of his success is attributed to luck or people around him being stupid.
I think for me the main issue with the "maybe you could use an alloy?" contribution is that a) this and "have you thought about not trying so hard?" are the only contributions that we are shown and b) Halbrand is some randomer who rocks up without any existing credentials for crafting magical items. The only thing that we have seen him make is a sword that a human smith finds passable. If they did not want to go full on technobabble and have him spout some nonsense that is supposed to be profound in universe, they could at least have established him as skilled in the art of magical ring making. Maybe he could be wearing a ring that he made and have it be noticed by Celebrimbor. He could be modest about it, declaring it to be a mere trinket that is unworthy of an elven smith. But this gives him an in. This sets him up as having some qualifications. Without any of this, he's just some vagrant "king" who acts far too familiar with an elven lord that he only just met and is given far too much credit for extremely trivial contributions.
I suppose the real problem here is the insistence on having the human "Halbrand" persona to begin with, instead of introducing him from the outset as Annatar.
Based on what happens later it may be a deliberate attempt to downplay his involvement. But this is incoherent for a number of reasons. Because as you say he should not even know about them and they are made totally out of order. And in doing it this way, they have also already established who Sauron is and that his alter ego should not be trusted. It requires some serious contrivances and questionable choices by characters to then reintroduce him as the Annatar persona and have him remain trusted by Celebrimbor at least.
I forgot to add, I will definitely subscribe. You are very articulate and seem to have well thought out and respectful opinions to share. Good videos
Well... so now you're going into season 2 and in the beginning it might look as if they "listened" and tried to remedy at least some problems... And then before you know it, it all collapses and starts to look as if it was written by the writers who sat in some room, coked up to their gills and drunk, and just picked some names of random characters, places and events from the books, wrote them down on little pieces of paper, threw them into a bowl, shook it and then just dug out some to write each scene. It's like some crazy bingo game. I mean... you just wait:)
It doesn't feel like they are trying to copy Peter Jackson's vision, which I can appreciate. Though I also feel like there is a "too many cooks" problem, where individual visions (of set designers, of directors, of cinematographers, etc..) gets washed out in the noise of all of the corporate decisions.
I very much appreciate your comments about having an open and civilised discussion. About the only channel on here that I have seen so far expressing a positive opinion made it clear that they were not interested it any criticism, so they were seeking to create a positive echo chamber. Which on one level I cannot blame them for as there is so much mean spirited commentary that has little to do with the actual quality of the show, as well as external stuff relating to questionable responses by the cast and others to legitimate critique. But on the other it is frustrating because it makes it so much harder to talk about a subject that interests us, whether that be to praise or to criticise.
Its great to see a woman presenting this type of content. Even though we are all just human beings riding this crazy rock through space, its refreshing to hear your thoughts. Hearing thoughtful, rational discourse is a welcome thing because i feel like it represents the majority of opinions of sane adults.
I reread the istari section of the appendices last night, and it explicitly said that though Saruman spent much time in the east, and later settled in Isengard, Gandalf spent his whole time in the west of middle earth.
Edit last night
Also, the only mithril ring of power is the one Galadriel ends up with. Cirdans ring is of gold.
The whole season is a terrible, terrible car crash.
Yeah, I'm one of those people who read the Silmarillion because of this show. I don't love the show, I think it's very average but it does make me want to get more invested in Middle Earth so I think it did its job.
I think the main underlying problem with "Rings of Power" is that J. D. Payne and Patrick McKay (massive respect to them for what they've accomplished) are inexperienced showrunners who didn't have the skill to structure Season 1 properly or to achieve the right balance between paying homage to Jackson's movies and doing their own thing. They are also not very good at writing "Tolkienian" dialogue, and they're in the position of presenting a story that Tolkien wrote only in hints and fragments, without the rich storehouse of dialogue and event that Jackson had to work with.
I think it's very clear that RoP has the Rings made out of order to correspond with the order in which they're mentioned in the Ring-verse, which was also that in which they were presented in the prologue of the FotR movie: "Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, Nine for mortal Men doomed to die..." Payne and McKay realize, I think, that that sequence is more familiar to the general public than the actual chronological sequence Tolkien intended (with the Three coming last before the One). Due to its prominent position on the first page of many editions of LotR, the Ring-verse was the first piece of Tolkien's writing I read as a child, and I suspect that this is true of many other people. (I remember Magica De Spell saying, "One dime to rule them all, one dime to find them!" on an episode of "DuckTales," long before I read Tolkien's books or the Jackson films came out, and I still got the joke.)
I don't mind Halbrand consulting with Celebrimbor before he forged the Three Rings, given that in Tolkien Celebrimbor works with Annatar for a long time on the Seven and the Nine before making the Three on his own. What did bother me in Season 1 was Halbrand touching Finrod's dagger (in Episodes 2 and 3) and the mithril ingot prior to their incorporation into the Three. In Tolkien's FotR, Elrond says, "The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them." Although this is technically true in RoP, I would have been happier if Sauron had never touched any of the materials that became part of the Three before their forging. It would convey Sauron's power better if the show acknowledged the possibility of anything he touches, even for a moment, becoming irrevocably tainted.
As soon as you mentioned the worst actress, Conan the Barbarian knock offs sprang directly to mind. You then made multiple more fanfic/b-movie type references, and I'm in complete agreement with those assessments.
At the end of the day, RoP is simply a vehicle to sell more products via Amazon. "Hey, we have the best IP and we're spending (thinks of a random impressive number... places pinky finger to lip) $1Bn on it!". There's no way on earth the talent they have is worth a fraction of the remaining budget after the rights acquisition. The dealer from Trainspotting and Uncle Benjen are the biggest actors and the writers are only two steps up from actual fanfic. This is only to take Amazon a step closer to total global shopping monopoly, nothing about it resembles art by design. It's advertising.
There's definitely stuff on the series that I do like. But mostly it's just weird choices in my opinion and unnecessary mysteries and tension where there wasn't anything in the books. For Second Age Tolkien wrote the broad strokes, but there was still a lot of blanks to fill to depict in more detail how stuff could have happened, and without a need to change the story upside down. Why not show Numenor at the height of its power, slowly establishing colonies in Middle-Earth without the tensions there's now, to show the stakes are high as the fans know what should be happening at the end anyway? And to display the good relations between elves and Numenorians as they were for such a long time, to make the eventual fall seem so much higher? I get that they needed an emergency for the elves as a reason to build the elven rings first, but why invent some weird decay and tie mithril with that? Why not show a glimpes of Valinor where stuff doesn't grow old and die, and then tie that as one of the reasons for need to build the rings, to slow down the natural decaying of plants and trying to emulate Valinor in Middle-Earth, and remind more prominently that some elves are still banned from going back even if they want to. Add to this Annatar, slowly working with the elven smiths in Eregion gaining their trust and finally coming up to Celebrimbor might have been more interesting after he was turned down in Lindon. Or perhaps too slow burn?
I think part of this is the nature of the production, which is a huge budget show with a need to please the masses, and the basic idea that you can't kill off a bunch of your main characters every season. I disagree with that idea and think it's actually thematically necessary to do so in the case of Numenor, but that is the (I believe explicitly stated by the showrunners) reason. The messing around with the ring forging story is a lot tougher to explain, aside from the most obvious that they wanted to show the elven rings being used, they wanted to give Galadriel stuff to do, and they wanted a Sauron mystery box.
You're pretty spot on with your take on RoP. It seems you may be holding back on some of your options and I can't blame you. Most of it remains me of that part in Jurassic Park where Ellie has to dig through that pile of dino 💩 to find the problem that's making it sick but the problem was there the whole time and now you're now trying to dig for something good to find about RoP. Weeeelllll... that's my take anyways.
oh the stranger is 100% Gandalf.... they are just dragging him along for exposition sake...
We are all hoping that mysterious wizard is NOT Gandalf. If they make him into a Blue Wizard, it might just end up being the only good decision the writers made.
Three Blames for the Directors of every episode,
Seven for the Producers in their towers of glass,
Nine for Scriptwriters happy to tell not show,
And Blame for the Showrunners more bad than badass
In Amazon Prime where the Money lies.
One Show to ruin Tolkien, One Show to snub him,
One Show to insult his work, and in the making scorn him
In Amazon Prime where the Money lies.
Well done for trying to consider this as a stand alone work of fiction. I think though that this show has been sold by almost everyone involved as a Lord of the Rings story ("back to the book, back to the book") so any criticism of where it fails as a LotR story is valid. However, I also think that if this was a generic fantasy world it remains a poor show.
If you know Community - the show. Watch the Beginner Pottery episode (s1ep19) with RoP in mind.
For me its somehow a better version of the first season of Rings of Power.
It has at least better versions of surprisingly many similar elements.
Spoilers for community:
Pottery VS Smithing
The villain is an imposter.
2 Backflashes to a familymember giving a speech that shapes the narrative... while the second one is fake.
A great scene of finding out about the villain in the same fashion - by studying his history.
A better way to word the "the sea is always right"
The hero close on the border of becoming the villain - and crossing it
Better drowning sequences... more dramatic I would say.
and probably more...
Love your takes!
The actor that played Celebrimbor was too old.. he's supposed to be younger than Galadriel..
I couldn't agree more. Of all the things that I struggled with in terms of this series (and it is already starting again with season 2 and I'm only on the second episode) the biggest one is that there are too many characters and too many points they spend considerable time on that have little if anything to do with the overall story plot. My hope was that they are seeds for season 2, and they might be, but it creates confusion in season 1, for me anyway. I can't tell which one I am more disappointed with: this series, The Wheel of Time, or the Willow series. I guess the most important thing is that all of them disappointed me a lot, which is sad.
I liked your video. I thought it was very fair and respectful.
The worst part of it “feeling like bad first draft fanfic” is that I have literally read better fanfic than this. I can list multiple ao3 authors who would have written a better story than this. You’ve hit on the thing that baffles and infuriates me most about this show: how the hell did something so utterly amateur and full of “baby’s first novel” level writing mistakes get made like this??? It makes me so sad that it has the elements of something good and none of the execution. We could have had something so much better!
Precisely. I almost felt bad making the comparison because I can name many fanfics that are better than this.
@@AlaniTheScriptMage right like there’s nothing wrong with fanfic, even bad fanfic, or with making beginner mistakes. But beginner writers should not be writing the most expensive tv show of a beloved franchise ever made! Please Amazon hire some ao3 writers next time 😂
Just in time for season 2 XD
Thank you for taking the time to do this, and for your insights. I did watch the entire first season when it was released, and I very much disliked it. I am a huge fan of Tolkien, and I have read a lot of his writings, and what angered me most was The seemingly blatant disregard of his legendarium. The bad writing, wasted time, and illogical plot holes, etc. were all just icing on the cake for me.
That being said, I have watched the premiere of season two, and I wanted to share something that has helped me immensely. I have chosen to enjoy this show for what it is, namely a fantasy epic that in my mind has no connection to the original body of work. It’s amazing how much I can just enjoy the ride, so to speak, with that new lens through which I can watch this series.
Don’t get me wrong, I will still enjoy hearing your thoughts on the different points regarding the lore, but for me, I’m actually enjoying this show much more now. In my opinion, this season at least is moving a lot more than season one did, so just that is a huge improvement. Enjoy this new season, and especially the great conversations with your coworker!
One thing I liked is the actual locations, I feel like they nailed the cities but its what's actually happening in these places that sucks. I actually like the idea of the Dwarves singing to the mountain too, also the two trees in the introduction, but there's too much wrong to take seriously. I'll watch it all the through though out of curiosity, I do look forward to seeing the nine and hope they improve the Numenor scenes as they're the weakest part of the show so far for me.
I never read the Hobbit nor LOTR before watching RoP S1. I hated the show so much, I rage read through the books including the Silmirillion. Now I hate the show even more
I have to say I enjoyed your perspective while rewatching this season. I try to find a variety of opinions on media coverage to build a better picture of what I'm looking at. All too often, a reviewer being too far to one side or the other tends to ignore mentioning the strengths or weaknesses of the work. As for Rings of Power, I think it's a mess that needed more time with the editors before they started filming. That and it has too many storylines that it kept jumping between for folks to really get into it. Its telling that one of the better received episodes had the least amount of plots in it and the second season seems to be limiting the number of storylines they're pursuing per episode.
I didn't hate season 1, I had fun, and while I have only watched the first 2 episodes, season 2 looks better
I understand that the change of the order of the forging of the rings is jarring, but I also think the writers knew the philosophy of Tolkien’s world that the best works of craftsmen were their first works, and they cannot be replicated as wonderfully again. The Complaint of Mim The Dwarf, the destruction of the trees not being able to be made again, etc…so I think the showrunners thought, “Well the three rings are the greatest of all the rings except the one, so they should be made first according to the rules.” I believe this was their approach to the orcs as well. They can mate with humans in LoTR under Saruman, so obviously they have worth and value of their own, and they wanted to explore that.
I am not saying this to make anyone like it, just to help people understand that the writers are focusing on something else in Tolkien’s lore and creating something they think would reach its logical conclusion. Why would the elves make rings of power for other races before themselves? Insanity. 😏 😂
Where Tolkien parallels the secrecy of the three with the secrecy of the one, the RoP writers parallel other aspects of the ring making, like introducing Elrond, Galadriel and the Stranger, presumably Gandalf, at the same time as the making of the three.
And when it comes to elven magic, I think Galadriel herself made it seem very scientific - magic is just something they do because it’s scientifically part of the world. Lembas bread? Some may call it magic, but that’s just how the elements work when combined together in a certain way at a certain time with certain words spoken over it, maybe. Lol.
I believe that’s why the showrunners are making Celebrimbor’s work a bit more scientific sounding as well.
Not to mention the pupils of Aule all share a very mechanical element to their work. AND when the Valar and Maiar first entered the world and played in it like a giant sandbox, they were discovering the things in it and what each could do, and figuring out how to use it. The Valar and Maiar had to study middle earth before they could become eternal professors in it.
Yes everyone knows craftsman do their best work before any practice, their 1st work is always best you know. No we don't know that, because it's wrong tf lol. It's backwards and stupid as hell to all but you.
Well maybe the writers should've focused on the script instead of "focusing on something else in Tolkiens lore". Write for the story you're trying to tell, don't change what Tolkien wrote in order to achieve some internal consistency in your own headcanon.
"Why would the elves make rings for other races before themselves?"
Unless I'm mistaken, they made the rings for themselves, then sauron took them and handed them out to the other races. The great rings were never made by the elves under the assumption they were going to be made for other races.
I mean no disrespect but this seems like an awful amount of cope to justify a poorly written show
what is this ABOUT? that is the problem the writers do not know what this is about beside references to jackson's work and tolkien's book title. if rings of power think/say this is tolkien or about lotr they do not know what is tolkien or lotr...this is sauron and his many orcs many adventures in middle-earth fanfic..lol
I was so annoyed with the "reimagining" of Galadriel and where is Celeborn? She said he went to fight Morgoth but that would have been over 1,000 years ago so where has he been hanging out this whole time?
Why would anyone still give these showrunners breaks? This show is attrocious on many levels and I'm not even a true Tolkien fan. 'I don't mind!' Why? This show is trash and trash shouldn't be tolerated or encouraged even in the least degree!
How did they get it so wrong? It should be studied.
Nothing is worst than Elves at Helm's Deep or Saruman making Uruk-Hai... That kills canon as f. CK.
I still blame the Tolkien estate for forcing the changes because they wanted to have it all by licensing the world and the characters but not the stories.
Simon Tolkien bears as much responsibility for this atrocity as Jeff Bezos does
Eh, as she pointed out in an earlier video, even with only having the rights to the hobbit and LOTR they could have made something much better than this with competent writing. Can you imagine this actual mess these writers would have made with the actual Silmarillion?
@@chuckshingledecker2216 I agree, it could have been better. It could have even been like the book if the Tolkien estate had said "make it like the book". Unfortunately the Tolkien estate refused to allow it to be made like the book. Before a single frame had been shot. 😕
Amazon should have made a show about the Blue Wizards in the East. Tolkien didn't write much about them, so there's lots of room for Amazon to create their own story. But that wouldn't have had so many opportunities for movie references.
I really don't want to say it but it feels like you're being just a little pretentious. I'm a huge Tolkien nerd as well and I absolutely love the show. Is it 100% accurate to the books? No, it's probably closer to 50% accurate if I'm being fair. Being what they had to work with to create a show that is NOT another remake of the LotR or The Hobbit and to attempt to tell the story of the second age without the complete rights to the material, which lets be honest even Tolkien didn't fully flesh out himself, I think they did a fantastic job. The imagery, the atmosphere, the whimsical feel of Tolkien, the music, and the acting are all top notch. I'm just glad we are getting SOMETHING.
Respectfully, I disagree. But I'm happy you feel that way! I am in no way doing this to yuck other people's yum. My issues with the show are predominantly writing structure based. I would not have minded the lore inconsistencies if I felt that the writing was strong.
In my opinion, it's not strong at all, but if you feel differently and the story resonates with you, I think that's great.
I tried very hard to watch season 1 with an open mind. I wanted to be able to like it. I could not.
If you think they pooped all over the 3 now wait for the first couple of eps of S2...🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
The 2nd season has been better than the 1st i think. Not hard to accomplish but still.
I view it like they paid a billion dollars to play with action figures. It's just straight up not Tolkien. And it's written to like the dumbest in the room... it's like they can't trust the audience to think for themselves. Season 2 is more of the same. I was so bored with it. And the cuts.....more crazy cuts.
Supporting this show just doesn't feel right to me after all the years of joy Tolkiens work has given me...
And I know he probly would of disliked the P.J movies but it cant be denied they were made with love for their craft and for the story they were adapting...
This show however just feels gross.. the people making it seem to hate us for being deep into the lore and obviously don't hold any passion for the story...
There was plenty of room for them to be creative with their own additions to it but why ruin what was told by Tolkien?
It was a great story!!
and they have totally F'd it by the end of S1...
You do a great job with these critiques. RoP is an utter, irredeemable failure. Their prime directive should have been, at the very least, do NOT write anything that directly contradicts Tolkien in a fundamental way (e.g. Elvish fading being due to lack of mithril). Such things go against the very core of his creation. They could have told the Fall of Numenor story well, if they had hired top-notch scriptwriters and actors. Who knows where all the money went, but it doesn't show up anywhere. The only good thing about the show is that some of the landscape shots are nice. Literally nothing else about the show is any good, at all. The Fall of Numenor is the kind of story that's been done before, it seems almost like a Greek tragedy, or Shakespearean, or biblical. Tell it like that. Ignore the other stuff. Watch shows like "I, Claudius" to see what wonders can be done with a good script, good actors, a sound stage, and essentially zero special effects.
So what your sayin, is you like the show?!? Lmao ~
I am curious what I said in this video that gave you that impression.
@@AlaniTheScriptMage I think he was making a funny.
@@VidZero LOL... that she cannot understand there was joke involved... even when LMAO is included... speaks volumes on the limited mindset involved when speaking her opinions.
It occurs to me that it could be a joke, although sarcasm is hard to translate in text.
@@AlaniTheScriptMage Alrighty, I only posted as I could feel the struggle of you trying to balance frustration and fairness. It took so long for the show to get any kind of traction with a bunch of cringe sprinkled around. A roll of the dice by Amazon that the audience would stick around long enough for it to become interesting IMO. You have pointed out many things that myself and friends had discussed. I am just catching up on your video's and enjoying them. Your editing is fun BTW. You were pretty clear at end of this vid just how you felt and you are again correct that sarcasm or texting in general can be taken differently (lost in translation). So keep up the great uploads and your PoV (plz and ty) Also, I enjoyed your S02E01 vid!! Starting to think they should have you on as an advisor! With that, take care!
I've just watched your run-through of all the episodes of the Amazon series. I've seen a number of youtube videos which went over some of the more egregious plot holes in the series as a shole, and it's nice to have someone focus on it one episode at a time. I was a big fan of the _"Lord of the Rings"_ book trilogy when growing up, and even read it once a year from 5th grade to my senior year in High School. I *bought* the Silmarillion but never got around to reading the whole thing. My older sister is much more of a Tolkien fanatic than I am, and has read the Silmarillion as well as some of the other books.
So far I haven't heard or seen anything about this Amazon series that encourages me to watch it. And I hope my sister never sees it, because she's enough of a Tolkien lore fanatic that she was upset with a few of the choices that *Peter Jackson* made. And I do mean *UPSET* with the choices 🙂 - don't bring up the character of Faramir as depicted in the movie!
But in watching the reactions to this show and to some other (unrelated) movies, I've come to the conclusion that the movie industry now has a lot of screen writers who didn't read many books when they were growing up. They have some idea of what a *movie* should "look like", but they don't really know how to write a *story.* Maybe some of the problem is that there are too many writers, and some of them are writing their scenes without any idea of what others are writing. It doesn't matter too much to me what the problem is. The part that annoys me is the attitude of "We've bought the rights to make a story in this IP (because that's all it is to them), and therefore all fans of this IP must like whatever story we write". It's like they think they're buying a fandom, instead of just the rights to reference the characters of an pre-existing fictional world.
Wait... so you're making an opinion based off of NOT watching the show. That is so illogical... I don't even know what to say. It's one thing to be critical and annoyed about creative choices but to state things based on NOT experiencing the movies. That's ridiculous.
@@captainKbobkeeshan - So I'm somehow *required* to watch the show, which Amazon will then point to and say "look how popular it is!". There are *many* movies and TV shows which I have decided to not watch without actually watching them. I'm not asking anyone else to avoid it, I'm saying that *I* am avoiding it.
And yes, I can make that judgement-call based on watching multiple short reviews of the show (such as this series of videos), and word-of-month from my own personal friends. I don't need your permission to make up my opinion.
What an interesting insight. Thank you for sharing! Yeah, I strongly recommend your sister avoid it. It is very, very, very much not for purists
You are incredibly based.
I just love listening to experts & I love people trashing this show. 😆
Sorry but the blacksmithing dialogue was terrible. Elves don’t know about alloys? 😢
Yep, it's haaaaaaaaard to watch if you know OR your brain is on.
And while it is supposed to be art, it is most certainly being paid for as a product to sell. That is ultimately their job and objectively they failed at that.
I was excited for it for any of the previews tentatively and I do wish that it had been good.
I can't separate the two. I've enjoyed Peter Jackson's work on The LOTR and the hobbit, this is dogshit by comparison and just puts mud on the franchise. Huge starwars fan also and the recent movies and series have done the same to that franchise..
Fan fiction? Tolkien's writings of the Second Age were not (excepting the incomplete Aldarion and Erendis) narratives, with lines of dialogue and more or less continuous narrative. In other words, not a novel, and not subject to adaptation in the usual sense. So, it was inevitable that this would be 'fan fiction', although that is a loaded term with connotations of amateurism that has replaced other terms like 'pastiche' in the modern day. Since we see Tolkien's world as having a history (what Tolkien called 'feigned history'), the most useful analogy must be the writing of a historical novel. In the case of the Second Age, such a novel would have a number of original characters, probably humble characters of human origin, whose lives impinge repeatedly on the great events of the Age. Galadriel, Celebrimbor, and the others would be on stage, but they would still be 'mythical' characters as they are in Lord of the Rings. Amazon could have done this, and done it really well, and it would still have been 'fan fiction'. But Amazon's 'historical novel' is just a mess at every level: as if a Revolutionary War story brought in the Pilgrims and young Abe Lincoln because the audience expects to see them in an American historical; and had them all using modern slang. The term 'fan fiction' cannot even be applied, since fan fiction usually concerns itself with staying close (if anything, too close) to Tolkien's words.
I use fan fiction in this case specifically in regard to its tone and feel. It would technically be classified as fan fiction regardless of its quality, but my point is it *feels* like something that I could read on some corner of fanfiction.net and this level of production should not feel that unprofessional. In some ways, I feel bad even making that comparison. Plenty of fanfic writers put significantly more care and quality into their work than this show has.
@@AlaniTheScriptMage I would think you should feel bad as casting fanfaction as bad. As that is a bias already established with that notion. As with many things (if not all), they can be bad or good. Fanfiction can be good. It can be really good. Or excellent. But using it for comparison tools to make something seem bad because fanfiction is bad is problematic and insulting. Unless you had said "bad" fanfiction. But then why even bother using the word fanfiction.
I have read great fanfictions that are superior to this show, but I stand by the comparison. Not as an insult, but as a fact. Fanfiction is taking an existing property and creating your own unofficial extension. The thing about fanfiction is that you aren't actually beholden to follow anything established by the original author. This leads to interesting premises that you would never see in the source material and in many ways that can be fun.
Rings of power feels like a fanfiction because it is forging a path that, at least in my eye, does not even try to feel like something that would actually exist in the source material.
This is what I mean by "it feels like fanfiction."
The call backs to the other movies is just a crutch when it is a weak script. Always advocate like what you like, my statement is "It's not my flavor of stupid" for my not good enjoyments.
haha! I might need to adopt that phrase in my personal life.
@@AlaniTheScriptMage Have at it. I've never liked the Guilty Pleasure moniker since it implies it's wrong. If farts make you giggle, then giggle away. Just don't fart in my general direction. Enjoy your harmless joy.
IT IS A BAD FANFICTION, yes amazing scenarios and fx´s, but, BAD FAN FICTION nonetheless. After reading (for the third time) The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion and starting to read Tolkien as what really is, filosophy, you can find insulting the RoP, the "woke" culture don't understand that there are somethings that should not mess with, but when you hear something like "Tolkien was racist" I can help but throw up. Hahahaha Isildur´s sister! What a joke!
If they amputated the harfoots and numenor s1 could have had a chance. They poorly utilized their resources and time. Pacing was so slow and not enough happened.
Blitzed thru stuff we shoulda seen, and lingering on stupid filler noone cares about.
Priorities are just ass backwards.
100 with your sentiment on it feeling like a first draft. Its juat sloppy. Did you notice how many times people would respond but the response doesnt even answer the question?
I kept watching as I expected the finale to be cool, but it sucked so bad.
It was terrible.
It was terribly terrible.
This show is not the most trash thing I ever saw, but considering the budget and the ''production value'', it's the worst by far.
Everything sucks. The costume, the acting, the dialogues, the story. Everything.
Everything is wrong with this show, the portrayal of every major character is way off. The casting is terrible, the writing is appalling. The stranger is definitely Gandalf. The writers most certainly are not knowledgeable about Tolkien's work in any way. They watched the movies that's about it.
Hi there! I've now watched all your review videos and I have so many opinions. XD There are lots of things I agree with you on in terms of flaws from the perspective of storylines or characters, but I feel like my main gripes are a little different. My biggest one actually is Celebrimbor. Cannot stand him and I'm so sorry to the actor because I'm sure he's doing what he can, and I'm aware that you can go the nerdy no people skills smith master since we know next to nothing about him as a person BUT. I'm sorry, this is Fëanor's grandson? To me it feels like he has no shred of the aura of any of the Fëanorions, lease of all Fëanor himself. Where's even a hint of that charisma that motivated an entire people to leave their homes and go fight a Vala to avenge their murdered High-King, the Trees, and get back their Silmarils? There is not a moment in the show where he feels truly competent. We get told he's such a great smith etc but to me it never feels like it and that's so sad for me personally because I LOVE Celebrimbor's story, his whole context or where he's from and what he does.
Anyway this sounds very negative but I actually don't mind a lot of even the things other people hate. XD I don't mind the whole Sauron Galadriel thing because we know that she's canonically super ambitious and proud and tempted by this kind of power. It makes sense for Sauron to try and enlist her because it would open a million doors for him. Do I like the full on shot where they're screaming at each other? No. XD But I don't mind the idea itself at all.
I think my biggest problem with people absolutely hating on everything the show does is that Tolkien's words are taken as literal gospel even though the Silmarillion itself is a canonical retelling of events. The narrator is unreliable because it's meant to be read as from an in universe source with hindsight and bias and glossing over of details. If you actually dig into the details of certain things and how they realistically might have happened instead of relying on a glossed over version, you realise that some things shouldn't really be taken at face value. It's in parts a fairy tale even in a fantastic universe. And I think it's unfair to dismiss any and every attempt of working around that (even if I don't agree with all the choices the show made).
Anyway I could go into so much more detail here but I guess this is long enough. 😅 Would be super open to discuss more though with anyone who also cannot shut up about this topic. ^^
Which bits are covered by the idea that the Silm is fallible, though? The prologue boils everything down to "Morgoth killed the trees so we went after him, and did a war" which is obviously missing (all of the) context, but you can get away with it. A lot of the issues are later events and character stuff that I don't think falls under "unreliable narrator" territory, eg Gandalf, the Balrog, Celeborn, fading/mithril, Finrod vowing to kill Sauron (this requires completely changing the Beren and Luthien story which I think goes beyond false reportage given the importance of that to Tolkien), etc.
On Galadriel, I think the plot actually does disservice to her desire for power, which doesn't even come into it prior to the Sauron "proposal". There's never a sense that this character might take the offer, because her sole stated purpose has been to hunt her brother's killer, who is the person making it. Where's the dilemma? It's like if the Empire Strikes Back had Vader make the offer of ruling the galaxy with Luke, but he's still just the guy who killed his dad. The trouble with a lot of this stuff is it works backwards from (largely movie) LotR scenes and attempts to provide an "origin", and the whole Sauron and Galadriel story is them doing this for the photonegative ring offer when it doesn't need it.
But yes it is fun getting deeper into all this stuff, I tend to enjoy the picking at the bones a lot more than the show itself!
You put your finger on the point but may not realize it. You keep saying “$1bn production”. Who says that? Amazon? Why do we keep repeating that line for them when what we see on the screen is obviously not even close to that.
You cannot expect better dialogue than Tolkien such as, “I am good”, without spending millions of dollars.
When they were writing the scripts in crayon, obviously, Amazon had to dramatically increase the budget to allow for all the crayons that were eaten.
@@alistairbuckle3450 Hey now, the USMC had nothing to do with this show! 😁
WHY ARE THERE BLACK ELVES!!!!!!
Season 2 is a lot better than season 1
No
😂 no. No it is not.
It’s just more of the same slop.
The same way, horse manure with a waxy shine is better than one without it