Is Gay Marriage a Threat to Traditional Marriage? - John Corvino
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- Опубликовано: 17 сен 2012
- Marriage-equality opponents often argue that same-sex marriage proposes a threat to traditional marriage. John Corvino exposes how this unsubstantiated claim is highly implausible.
Dr. John Corvino, also known as the "Gay Moralist," is a writer, speaker, and philosophy professor at Wayne State University in Detroit. He is the co-author, with Maggie Gallagher, of the book Debating Same-Sex Marriage (Oxford Univ. Press, 2012).
Find the book here: amzn.to/ZuIrsl.
Video by Chase Whiteside. Read more at JohnCorvino.com.
So well said and as always, John's message is articulate, clear and makes sense, unlike the opposition whose message is jumbled and makes no sense. Thank you John!
Matthew 24:36 - "However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows."
Quit claiming that you know that the "day of the Lord is near." You're going against the Bible when you do so.
If God didn't want me to be gay, He'd have changed me when I repeatedly asked him to for the first 23 years of my life. As it is, I'm now happy to be gay. Happy with my boyfriend and happy with life in general.
How on earth could it be a threat to traditional marriage ? Absolutely absurd !
I know, right?! The thought behind might be like; "My expensive BMW is worth less because my neighbor has one too".
first comment :D This series is going viral, mark my words....mark my words....
This youtube video is really remarkable.
Not only because it has an awesome message... but also because of the absence of jumpcuts. Very cool single take, John.
I see no reason to create more laws to block a small percentage of people from loving each other.
And yes, we will definitely benefit from it, for the reasons both emotional and material stated by Corvino.
"mythology?" That doesn't make sense. Please explain.
The reason most gays want to get married is the exact reason as you stated up there, by the way. In addition to the things mentioned in the vids by John Corvino.
You look like a character in Family Guy. I love what you doing, though.
I had a conversation with a pentecostal family who are my friends and we discussed homosexuality and why it is a "sin". I asked them why it is a sin and how it can be evidenced as such. The father who is the authority of the household couldn't give a single reason. He flicked through the bible and found no explanation as to why homosexuality is a sin. He scratched his head in anger and the only thing they could say was I need to be baptized to understand why HM is a sin, haha
He probably only checked the New Testament. It´s true that jesus never said a word about homosexuality. Christians like to pick and choose from the Old Testament. Ten Commandments, Fine! Homosexuality as an abomination, fine! They don´t want to talk about slavery, incest, genocide or killing disobedient children. Sodom and Gomhorra are examples for why it is a sin but you can ask any christian and most of them won´t know what the actual sins were. Oh, and btw; The bible is the claim so it cannot also be the evidence for the truthfullness of the claim that homosexuality is a sin. Ask your friend who wrote the books of the bible, if he doesn´t say "we don´t know" he is either lying or ignorant.
Funny as F 😂😂
You, sir, just earned yourself a subscriber.
Well said John!
lol "Even my parents are straight," Mr. Corvino says in a conspiratorial whisper. Love this!
This is amazing.
Excellent!
Here here!
I was going to say just the same actually and am glad you beat me to it.
I know many people disagree w/ me and for reasons I completely understand. I just know that there are many ppl who think it's just not right, and I worry it will lead to seriously bad groups stepping forward in later years making all the same arguments as you do for this cause.
But we will see what happens in the future, cause whether we like it or not the human condition always changes and will affect us all along w/ it.
ruclips.net/video/Zk2XKwRW5u0/видео.html
The scripture that most people point to comes from Leviticus which outlines a series of rules and laws that God fearing followers MUST abide by, no exceptions. It even stipulates that if a child is sassing his or her parents or doing anything to shame or trouble them that they are within their rights to publicly kill the child. The fact that we openly reject that rule, along with the rules about clothing and shellfish, calls the whole book of Leviticus into question.
Perhaps logically speaking, it'd be unreasonable to claim that gay marriage threatens traditional marriages. But I believe such a claim stems from a place of fear and anxiety, and may be best addressed from a psychological standpoint. Nevertheless, I do believe that your argument stand true. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us, sir. :)
I never intended for the discussion. If you felt it necessary to challenge my propositions, however pointless, then I did not start the conversation. Keep on telling me what's logical, I love it.
I didn't say it's a purely emotional thing. I said it's now a MORE emotional thing whereas before it used to be more of a business transaction.
And these dimensions now also exist between men and men and women and women. So you'll just have to deal with it, unfortunately.
Well, actually, you don't have to deal with it at all really, since it doesn't actually affect you personally.
Not the current definition of marriage, but that definition has changed as the "institution" has changed many times in the past in many parts of the world. Marriage has been: "One man one woman", "One man multiple women", "One man multiple women and concubines", "One man one woman arranged politically", One man and the woman that is his rape victim", "One man and a woman that is his prisoner of war"... many of those are even contained in the bible.
Love the facial expressions.
yes...that's the one that applies to "whoever believes in him" ... but we're not all required to believe, only those who make the "lifestyle choice" to follow those doctrines.
I agree whole heartedly yes.
Amen!
John you are the best
How does it affect you?
Yeah, I figured that. I usually try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but she just now said Satan burdens me with lies.
I don't even know the guy!
A lot changed since church and state divorced. I think church didn't evolve fast enough for state. State realised that some realities needed to be addressed, like slavery, non-heterosexual lovelives, the right for women to hold certain jobs. There are within christianity different approaches to these topics, celibacy, female priests and cardinals, the church can evolve, …
In the US state and church were never married. ;-)
And? Those are separate subjects.
As the rest of the world has slowly started to realise, legalisation is a sign of progress rather than decline.
Being gay is not a "mess up." I was made this way. And ever since I realized that, my life has improved immeasurably. I'm done with you and the hate that you're spewing. And don't try to tell me that what you're doing isn't hateful, because it definitely is.
I don't have room for your hate and negativity in my life. Have a good life, and try to stop being so closed-minded and arrogant.
Of course it would, is and has been. With my partner as of now, we have a relationship that is all three of these things, and marriage would only serve to reinforce these. This rings true in most relationships between consenting adults.
Marriage used to be a more economic and legal thing, where a woman became a husband's property. Now, it's changed to become a more emotional thing. That can only be a beneficial development.
it's not my version...it's history. try reading it sometime.
For a philosopher, I would have expect better use of fundamental logic. This man obviously has his own standpoint and it come through loud and clear.
BRILLIANT!
Some heterosexual Christians just don't want to be associated with sharing marriage, if you will, with homosexuals. To think about homosexuals getting married just like they get married kind of causes them to realize that they have something in common with people that they would rather not have anything in common with. Even though they already have things in common with homosexuals outside of the subject of marriage. Plus, if they think gay marriage is wrong, they view marriage as being tainted by allowing gay marriage.
For a relationship to be considered legal, both members would have to consent to it. Minors legally do not have the ability to consent to an adult, only to other minors. These laws are in place to protect children, and that will never change. That's where the difference is. Pedophilia involves a high risk of the child getting hurt, where as homosexuality holds as much risk of either partner getting hurt from the other as any heterosexual relationship.
no, I like choice when individuals choose for themselves and not for others.
No, you didn't suggest that we go back, you suggested that marriage is being changed for the first time and I've proven that that isn't true.
And what seems like a bad idea often is a very good one.
Many other countries have already legalised it, including my home country of Norway. Norway is so christian that there's a cross in the flag, yet we still legalised it. And you know what happened? Very, very little, except that the marriage rate went up.
Marriage is defined as a legally, religiously, or socially sanctioned union of persons who commit to one another, forming a familial and economic bond. If a gay couple is part of a familial and economic union, depend on each other, support each other, and serve each other, why should it not be legally sanctioned?
Ok I'll change the word. I am not a native English speaker and I still need to acquire vocabualry.
We know from science that homosexuality is not a sin as you might call it. You can consult a valid entity such as APA to read articles about sexual orientation.
Actually anybody can evidence homosexuality is not a sin, choice or perversion by just observing and sharing with same sex couples, etc, but to make it universally valid we need the formality valid researches provide.
That's the truth as you see it. It certainly isn't the way I see it. Don't like it? A million times TOUGH!
There may be one threat. In Denmark, where it's been legal to marry (registered partnership) since 1989 the divorce rate among gay people are much lower then among straight people. Since 2012 it has also been possible to get married in the church. And this may be the problem, what if gay people are better Christians? If the divorce rate are lower, then I guess that they would be.
Same in the Netherlands
I feel like Rachel won. The point is our society hasn't evolved enough to fully review what is happening in our time. People believe slavery was socially acceptable however now we have the knowledge to look back on our past and evaluate. Same with the civil rights movement. My point is that this will go down in history, people will choose sides but i know that when I am asked where i was when the civil rights of gays was tried. I was on the right side, supporting every step of the way.
It... it was more of a rhetorical question than a literal one. I know there are differences in their religions, what I ask is what are the differences between us all as people, really? We all believe what we believe. I'm trying to understand her position on the idea that there is a "The Truth" - but hey, I mean, is a Hindu any less validated than a Christian in their faith? That was my question.
There obviously is a difference. Legal consent laws wouldn't allow the relationship between adult and minor, whereas there was no legal factor that stopped homosexual relationships, other than de facto objection. In order to legalize pedophilia, they would have to change multiple laws in every state in the U.S., which would be way to difficult to do. There would be too much opposition anyways, as almost every parent/potential parent would object to it.
If two people are in a committed relationship, then you should be able to get married if you want to .. end of story
You still can't find a single way in which it affects you in the real world rather than in your personal perception. When you can be fired from your job, denied a pension, forced to pay more taxes than other people, denied insurance, denied health care and mortgage specifically because of who you love, then you can complain and I will be first in line to defend you. Until then, you just aren't involved.
Now I would also at this point like to stop because I've been bothered w/ others trying to make the same tired arguments.
Let me say though I don't like anything about our government publicly accepting homosexuality as much as any other (specifically illegal forms of) non-hetero sexuality, I feel that people afflicted w/ homosexuality should be permitted a STRICTLY legal nationally accepted partnership that holds the same legal benefits and lack-there of as regular marriage.
I prefer if people were able to be happy in the country they choose to live in.
Guyncali2, well said.
I remember by husbands spouse ‘s cousin would not let his young son come to our marriage because he is catholic and does not want his son to see two men marry . This is the same catholic man who cheated on his wife divorced his wife and moved in with the new Girlfriend unmarried. Living in sin hmmm He now treats her like shit and makes her cry all the time. Religion is always used against gays but they ignore their own sins. I am not asking you to accept all gay people if you don’t believe it just DO Not talk about it or against it if you believe it’s a sin don’t judge let God judge not YOU.
What is it about philosophy that prevents someone from having his own standpoint? Isn't the whole point of philosophy to develop your own point of view?
@SouthSideLady Wright.
Please, for those of us who need to understand you statement, how are adultery, fornication or theft related with homosexuality?
Could you provide evidence that proves homosexuality as wrong or a threat to human life?
"We do not approve of homosexuality." That statement of yours addresses the crux of the issue here. Because it is something of which you don't approve, you believe no one should engage in or practice it. Case in point, Prohibition. Just because some decided they didn't care for alcohol and the consumption of it for whatever reason, they outlawed it and the problems they sought to avoid or thought they were addressing either became worse, or bred new types of problems such as organized crime.
Well, the age of consent is pretty much based upon the legal age of adulthood, which is 18. Until that age, all individuals are treated as minors. That much will never change. However, there was never any de jure restrictions on homosexual relationships, only on same sex marriage. Child protection laws are in place to, well, protect children. Most children lack the maturity to be in a relationship with someone much older than them, and that's why those laws are in place.
But the thing is that these "seriously bad groups" cannot use the same arguments for their case: Pedophiles and their underage partners cannot claim they are two consenting adults. Studies do not show that human-animal couples are as good at bringing up children as other couples.
This point was addressed earlier in the second video of this series. "Each of these things needs to be evaluated on its own merits."
"Studies do not show that human-animal couples are as good at bringing up children as other couples" Studies in the Netherlands have shown that children growing up in a same-sex marriage are better off than the others.
What's the difference between a Catholic and a Protestant? Even in "your" truth, and those that believe what you believe, there are offshoots. We're all different. No human is the same and no one glove fits all, even among Christianity! So how can you expect non-Christians to fit to a single truth, too?
There are tenants of major religions that are shared. Mostly, be good and kind to your neighbours. Be respectful, and accepting, and be brothers and sisters. Your homophobia goes against that.
You haven't offered 1 single fact. Not one. You don't have to support any other marriage than your own. No one is asking you to! I challenged you to come up with ways in which you are affected by gay marriage and your response is to bail. You've proven that some people are so mesmerized by what they think "should" be happening that they can't pay any attention to what IS ACTUALLY happening. You ignorance suits me just fine actually. It's been a great help to our cause. Keep up the good work!
Once again, nothing is based on what you "cannot see". It's perfectly legal in my state. You don't know that because you don't want to know.
Another thing is that Your sexual orientation and paedophilia are different things. Sexual orientation is a determining factor of which sex you belong to and are attracted to, whereas paedophilia is completely irrespective of sexual orientation and gender, it is a development of feelings towards minors. This is a massive difference, which is why I doubt you have actually looked this subject up.
There are things in the Bible that can be implies to say stuffs like that. However, there are also parts that say that tattoos and shell fish are sins. So, one can either take EVERYTHING as truth (which would be insane, for times change as should our mindsets) OR treat it "as more of guidelines than actual rules". Common sense lets one realize that even though it's in the bible, it had to be written by man. And man is fallible and deeply influenced by time period.
That doesn't even make any sense. What basis do you have?
Its a beautiful lifestyle! Seattle has shown me how beautiful homosexuality really is! Its so normal to have it around that I don't really think much of it. Twelve U.S. states allow same-sex marriage, along with the District of Columbia: Connecticut, Delaware, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Hampshire, New York, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington. So many states you can't visit! Because I am not anti-gay, I have a lot more ability to love anyone I want! Being normal sucks
Don´t use the word lifestyle. A lifestyle is a choice. People do not choose to be gay, they just are.
@@peteraschaffenburg1 Yes and replying to a 9 year old comment on my old channel makes you better than me, good job. I was 19 then so I was not as educated on sexuality or the terminology with sexual orientation. You make such an assumption that somehow after 9 years I haven't learned better which I find pretty insulting. That you took time out of your Thanksgiving to write an unnecessary comment. If I had written this yesterday then sure it would be appropriate but I am actually a gay man so saying what you said isn't necessary! Also, telling me not to use a word 9 years ago is impossible since time travel has not yet been achieved. Go fuck a giraffe in a volcano!
@@milesfann33 that last sentence ??😂😂😂
You haven’t learned much the past 9 years, have you?
You were dumb 9 years ago like your comment shows. Not much has changed.
Brain cells grow but not that fast.
Actualily the bible is quite ambigious regarding homosexuality. Leviticus and the word "toevah", Paul and the word he coined "arsenokoites" no one still has been able to decipher, etc.
How about Jonathan and David? That was a beautiful same sex love story^^
Marriage is much older than the bible or any religion. Marriage came to exist mainly for survival purposes. It was practised by almost every ancient culture you can imagine around the world. The way it was celebrated obviously varied according to culture, etc.
Religion took this pagan practice just like it did with many others and added a spiritual flavour to it.
YES! EXACTLY! I think Christians are supposed to shut up about that. they should be dedicated to living their own lives in accordance with Christian teaching; recognizing their own sin in their own heart, repenting for their own faults; and represent Christ's goodness by example, not force...NOT outlandishly or self-righteously sitting in judgment of others, acting superior or prideful.
And?
Guy looks like John Turturro
"The Congress was just tell the courts that marriage is not up for their interpretation." I ironic that you think that the courts should have no right to interpret marriage but you think YOU DO? lol. Your original statement was that marriage has always been between a man and a woman and mine position, that I've clearly proven, is that until DOMA, no such definition existed. Your response was to say that one wasn't needed. You've prove me right. Spiritual matters are irrelevant to law.
When did you choose to be heterosexual?
Why not just live and let live, rather than bicker and throw back and forth arguments and insults?
So even though you just said: "Other people have their opinions and I have mine. What they comment they believe is truth for them, and I comment truth what I believe."
You're gonna take that back? And say "truth is truth"? There is no one truth for everyone. What's the difference between a Jew and a Christian and a Muslim and a Hindu and an atheist? The only real truth is that we should all treat each other nicely and with respect, which your comments do the opposite of.
Republicans weren't just trying to make it not legal, they were trying to make a law that barred it from ever becoming legal, since constitutions are very, very hard to edit. Very different thing.
You're right insofar as you claim that true equality won't change everyone's mind, but the younger generations which are less and less touched by tradition and the prejudices of old will shape and determine the future. Social progress is leaving your personal attitudes in the dust as it marches onward; you are becoming a minority. Many gay people feel just fine about themselves, many do not and it doesn't take much to understand why they might not with the all of the bullying, hate, and bigotry.
There is such thing as philosophical logic and the philosophy of logic. Philosophical statements, propositions, arguments and responses tend to follow a logical code and if that is not clear, we debate the shit out of it. This mans case for gay marriage is a narrow minded joke.
You can't have it both ways. To say you are against gay marriage is to say that you are in favor of these evil acts against them.
Yeh, it redefines it into exactly the same institution, just with more people doing it. How i that hurtfull in any way to non-gay marriages?
Why would anyone chose to be persecuted? What sense does that make? Did you choose to be straight? Can you chose to be gay tomorrow?
How about we just start loving each other! Where is the love in this world? I love everyone! Why do we need to make things more complicated than they need to be? Just let people do what they want without everyones opinión. People should be allowed to get married to which ever gender they want! It doesn't affect anyone else! Being anti-gay also limits you in the places you can go in the world. Don't go to any of the great US cities, Gay scenes are huge there. NYC has the most gays in the USA!
It's totally a threat in the sense that 1. making gay marriage and relationships fully acceptable in public society means more people are likely to try it, which in itself is a problem. 2. More people again in the future may become or try to be gay for the hell of it, which again is a problem. 3. While traditional marriage most likely wont vanish, it could become a minority or less than the majority- which AGAIN is a frighteningly bad thing for all and any civilization in the long run/big pic
What is wrong with you? You´re not serious are you? Sexuality or who you are attracted to isn´t an ice cream flavor. Today I might try strawberry. Your arguments are ridiculous and you can´t tell WHY that would be bad for society. Can you? For the record... There is NOTHING wrong with being gay. A person is born gay, it´s NOT a choice.
It sure is Jake. Honestly, I'm sure you have better things to do than write to me. I'm really not interested any more. However I will leave you with a single source : "An Induction to Philosophical Logic", by Grayling. You might learn worlds more from that book, than from me on here. Have a good day.
no everybody on this Earth does not know it as just one man & one woman, since there have been cultures, religions and societies throughout time that have defined marriage differently than that. try learning a bit about the realities of human history before posting erroneous comments.
Oh and by the way, I did not choose to be gay. Did you yourself choose to be heterosexual? Did you decide you were going to feel an attraction towards people of the opposite sex? No, and it isn't any different for homosexual people. If you're unable because of the blinders of religion to grasp this simple fact then I guess it really is tough.
You do understand that by saying they're awful sinners, that's awfully psychologically damaging. I respect your opinion in all its forms, but it is a hurtful opinion that is derogative and belittling and thus a... like, I don't mind that you have them, but maybe not sling them around, and then get defensive when people get hurt.
Not to censor anyone, of course, but if you're going to put up a fight after being told to stop, there's not a lot of places it can go.
Remember, shouting makes it true.
oh if only that comment incorporated any sense of logic, it might have been pretty good. nice try, though. thanks for playing our game. I'm sure there are some lovely parting gifts. good day.
Science is not a religion and not something people are constantly thinking about. So equating science with religion is a wrong perception.
So I never made a choice because science is not religion, but you have made a choice on the other hand.
Oh, I hope you reply to my other comment addressed to you.
Ok I won't apologise.
Huh. Eight months ago. Little late to the punchline. I can't even see the other person's comments anymore, considering that they were down-voted into oblivion.
And why do you think that is? Maybe because society is constantly trying to force the "family tradition" down their throats? So what's really harmful, being a homosexual or discrimination? And I'm only talking about the suicide rates and substance abuse, because I think anyone has to right to be as promiscuous as they chose to be and that's nobody's business (as long as they don't bring any risks to their partners, of course).
"If you cant explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" -Albert Einstein. He had and still has credibility, you however do not. You spouting of this seemingly ambiguous knowledge without explaining your meaning, leaves at a loss. You have a nice day.
Masha Gessen author who campaigns for homosexual 'rights "t’s a no-brainer that (homosexual activists) should have the right to marry, but I also think equally that it’s a no-brainer that the institution of marriage should not exist. …(F)ighting for gay marriage generally involves lying about what we are going to do with marriage when we get there - because we lie that the institution of marriage is not going to change, and that is a lie.
So, South Side Lady Wright, are you owned by your husband? Are you his property with which he can do as he wishes? Of course you are! You adhere to the original, natural, and traditional way!
You said that , "I cannot see how you would be fired for who you have sex with". I've proven you wrong on that topic. The opinions of the majority have no value on the lives of a minority. Your opinion will have no bearing on any else's life. You think insurances rate are higher for gays due to some kind of "lifestyle"? Prove it. Fact is that I know more about it what I'm fighting for that you know what you're fighting against. I've got first hand knowledge, you don't and never will.
I think you two have actually managed to have an argument... without making a single point. That's impressive in itself.
cool story bro
Firstly, I don't even know Satan. So I dunno what you're smokin' THERE.
And secondly, I would like you to look up the word "subjective" - in particular what it means regarding the concept of a singular truth - and get back to me when you understand that what's true for you isn't true for everyone, even among other Christians that believe the same as you! :o
I personally believe that it's not worth debating anyone's beliefs unless it harms others. I wouldn't be talking to you otherwise.
sec1 of the 14th Amendment: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.