In my experience and observations with INFJs, what makes it hard to argue with them is that they often tend to take the argument into the mental framework of the other person: “You think that way because of your need to think that way. Your belief is fulfilling some set of needs.” In contrast to presenting more concrete observable facts. They will keep deflecting in that manner, so each person is approaching from a different angle where they cannot meet each other.
Some RUclips debates I see are convoluted with psychological and malevolent strategies that have very little to with the topic and everything to do with destroying the opponent's credibility and reputation. As an INFJ, there is no way I'm giving up those bullets. Context of data and the opponents motivations shape their points of view and their weapons. It's fair game.
Nice observation. You hardly ever catch me arguing about actual facts and if I do find myself doing that I tend to feel a bit silly afterwards. Also, understanding why people disagree, to me, seems like the obvious first step to finding common ground in an argument.
I find in debates I either know the other person is wrong, but I might be unable to explain why in the moment, or know it would take too long to explain
I'm in my sixties, an INFJ with a background in psychology. I'm interested in reality. I distinguish between what someone wants to believe versus what someone actually knows. I've noticed I don't have a lot of opinions, although I do have impressions. If an issue or question gains my interest, I do the research, the deep dive, so I can actually know what's real, rather than have an opinion. I very much have that intuitive sense when I encounter something that is somehow not grounded in reality, and, again, I will do the research to know what's real. Unless I'm engaged in a creative endeavor, I'm not usually very much interested in idle opinions. I can't speak for any other INFJ, but anyone who questions my conclusions is probably less informed than I am.
I can relate to that, though it took me quite a bit of time in my early mid 20's to get to that point, to see what has a value, and what is just waste of time in discussions. From what I've seen, not many strive for knowing what's real, for being in sync with their goals or even wanting to reach a common ground. In most cases, others just want to have their opinion, in mundane way. If there is an actual conflict to resolve, then the main thing to know is, what is the problem, can it be solved, and does everyone approach the discussion in good will? If people don't know what really is even the problem, if the solution is not something doable anytime soon, or at all, or if someone already decided they want what they want, or are a menace, then, it is just drama, not discussion. After years of various social situations, I got an intuitive sense now where to invest any of my time, or if it's just an emotional drain.
I can relate with the spiritual secure part at the end. Once I realized my insecurities and worked on them, now I know my boundaries, and what is what. Recently I interacted with pushy, and overly flattering person, that I realized their goal pretty early on. I was considering just being blunt and honest about it, but maybe slightly rude, or just, being polite, but keeping my boundaries up, all the time. In the end, my research project there was, what makes this person tick? Why are they like this towards me? Can I learn something from this? I realized, that this person has far less fear interacting with others, approaching them, which was still something I was keen to improve. So, I just tried to understand that, and how to gain knowledge, maybe even a friend, if they won't get mad and frustrated, heh.
Ren, once again you seem to have explained the personal growth from solipsistic to spiritual that i feel i have achieved as my life advances, and which i'd never considered before today, this time in regards my own past issues with the challenge of debate.
Hello Ren. I find it really funny when you mentioned that the other party might not even notice that the INFJ is actually agreeing with them in the argument but the other person doesnt realize it. (That has happened to me multiple times 😂). But yeah I think its safe to assume that if you want to argue with us, then be prepared for it cause its either gonna destroy you or enlighten you. 😂 This reminds me of the times where I would have arguments with my parents (No screaming matches mind you) and they would admit defeat of my logic of the situation. (This intrigues and enfuriates my ENTP older brother to no end cause he can never win with them 😂.) Here are some questions: 1) For a type that wants deep and meaningful relationships, why do we ghost people so easily? On the flipside, why do people get upset when we do that? (I am guilty of doing this with people). 2) Why do other people get weary of thinking of the future or can't seem to focus on it when it comes so easily to INFJs and INTJs? 3)Do you think INFJs are less addicted to technology? That it's easier for them to do “internet detoxes” (or so they are called). Have a good day 💜🫡.
In my experience (dated an INFJ for many years) the issue when it came to arguing was the anchoring of her intuition. Her justification for a particular position was her intuition meaning something that just popped into her head that she was emotionally attached to. Whereas I (as an INTP) generate concepts, connect those concepts, form a logical sequence that explains the situation, and then provide examples and counter examples to illustrate my point. Interestingly this mostly only occurred when we disagreed about something. When discussing a neutral topic (every topic is neutral for me) she was more reasonable. When not able to convince me of her being right because of her intuition there began personal attacks, door slams, and so on. She had many admirable qualities though.
as an INFJ i debate with people a LOT over tv shows. ENTP's wouldn't find me too much of a challenge to argue against. i'd say i'm not so much hard to argue against so much as I'm hard to convince because in the artistic realm specifically, my intuition has already decided that something is so, before my logic has caught up to it.
In my experience and observations with INFJs, what makes it hard to argue with them is that they often tend to take the argument into the mental framework of the other person: “You think that way because of your need to think that way. Your belief is fulfilling some set of needs.” In contrast to presenting more concrete observable facts. They will keep deflecting in that manner, so each person is approaching from a different angle where they cannot meet each other.
This is fair. But the reason you think this is because of your deep seated wounds as a result of your childhood.
😁
@ 😂
Some RUclips debates I see are convoluted with psychological and malevolent strategies that have very little to with the topic and everything to do with destroying the opponent's credibility and reputation. As an INFJ, there is no way I'm giving up those bullets. Context of data and the opponents motivations shape their points of view and their weapons. It's fair game.
We’re just pointing out another’s projection and the drama it creates. We don’t bother with the projection drama bs.
Nice observation. You hardly ever catch me arguing about actual facts and if I do find myself doing that I tend to feel a bit silly afterwards. Also, understanding why people disagree, to me, seems like the obvious first step to finding common ground in an argument.
I find in debates I either know the other person is wrong, but I might be unable to explain why in the moment, or know it would take too long to explain
I experience the same.
I feel that. Common source of frustration and self doubt for me.
The research project for me often becomes how long does it take for them to realize I have checked out because they have alienated me.
I'm in my sixties, an INFJ with a background in psychology. I'm interested in reality. I distinguish between what someone wants to believe versus what someone actually knows. I've noticed I don't have a lot of opinions, although I do have impressions. If an issue or question gains my interest, I do the research, the deep dive, so I can actually know what's real, rather than have an opinion. I very much have that intuitive sense when I encounter something that is somehow not grounded in reality, and, again, I will do the research to know what's real. Unless I'm engaged in a creative endeavor, I'm not usually very much interested in idle opinions. I can't speak for any other INFJ, but anyone who questions my conclusions is probably less informed than I am.
I can relate to that, though it took me quite a bit of time in my early mid 20's to get to that point, to see what has a value, and what is just waste of time in discussions.
From what I've seen, not many strive for knowing what's real, for being in sync with their goals or even wanting to reach a common ground. In most cases, others just want to have their opinion, in mundane way. If there is an actual conflict to resolve, then the main thing to know is, what is the problem, can it be solved, and does everyone approach the discussion in good will? If people don't know what really is even the problem, if the solution is not something doable anytime soon, or at all, or if someone already decided they want what they want, or are a menace, then, it is just drama, not discussion. After years of various social situations, I got an intuitive sense now where to invest any of my time, or if it's just an emotional drain.
Definitely the spiritual type. More insecure when I was younger. In my experience, you hit the nail on the head.
I can relate with the spiritual secure part at the end. Once I realized my insecurities and worked on them, now I know my boundaries, and what is what. Recently I interacted with pushy, and overly flattering person, that I realized their goal pretty early on. I was considering just being blunt and honest about it, but maybe slightly rude, or just, being polite, but keeping my boundaries up, all the time.
In the end, my research project there was, what makes this person tick? Why are they like this towards me? Can I learn something from this? I realized, that this person has far less fear interacting with others, approaching them, which was still something I was keen to improve. So, I just tried to understand that, and how to gain knowledge, maybe even a friend, if they won't get mad and frustrated, heh.
Ren, once again you seem to have explained the personal growth from solipsistic to spiritual that i feel i have achieved as my life advances, and which i'd never considered before today, this time in regards my own past issues with the challenge of debate.
Hello Ren.
I find it really funny when you mentioned that the other party might not even notice that the INFJ is actually agreeing with them in the argument but the other person doesnt realize it. (That has happened to me multiple times 😂). But yeah I think its safe to assume that if you want to argue with us, then be prepared for it cause its either gonna destroy you or enlighten you. 😂
This reminds me of the times where I would have arguments with my parents (No screaming matches mind you) and they would admit defeat of my logic of the situation. (This intrigues and enfuriates my ENTP older brother to no end cause he can never win with them 😂.)
Here are some questions:
1) For a type that wants deep and meaningful relationships, why do we ghost people so easily? On the flipside, why do people get upset when we do that? (I am guilty of doing this with people).
2) Why do other people get weary of thinking of the future or can't seem to focus on it when it comes so easily to INFJs and INTJs?
3)Do you think INFJs are less addicted to technology? That it's easier for them to do “internet detoxes” (or so they are called).
Have a good day 💜🫡.
I feel so called out 🙈🙈 but why desist in using defence mechanisms that seem to do the job so well?
In my experience (dated an INFJ for many years) the issue when it came to arguing was the anchoring of her intuition. Her justification for a particular position was her intuition meaning something that just popped into her head that she was emotionally attached to. Whereas I (as an INTP) generate concepts, connect those concepts, form a logical sequence that explains the situation, and then provide examples and counter examples to illustrate my point. Interestingly this mostly only occurred when we disagreed about something. When discussing a neutral topic (every topic is neutral for me) she was more reasonable. When not able to convince me of her being right because of her intuition there began personal attacks, door slams, and so on. She had many admirable qualities though.
as an INFJ i debate with people a LOT over tv shows. ENTP's wouldn't find me too much of a challenge to argue against. i'd say i'm not so much hard to argue against so much as I'm hard to convince because in the artistic realm specifically, my intuition has already decided that something is so, before my logic has caught up to it.
Genius
We tend to be able to see every angle
What do the acronyms mean??? Jesss..how annoying!
Introverted Intuitive Feeler Judger