Soliciting INFJs' advice and and then resenting it is reflective of their own conflicting attitudes and views. Most people seem to be almost magnetically pulled toward what we have to offer and than repelled once they realize there's more than they are willing to see. I have also learned to STOP helping, to the point of consciously choosing not to speak or only minimally address the problems shared by my friends. It gives me peace of mind, and preserves friendships. But it was a very difficult learning curve.
Very well said imo! I think they're usually not actually seeking advice. We seem kind supportive and attentive, so what they are seeking is to be petted, succorred, fed, agreed with, helped to play the eternal victim, always made 'right' and stroked! When we actually give constructive observations or advice (which we ourselves might find valuable and see as a gift and effort from the giver!), they get angry 😂 Most people only want to be petted and allowed to remain comfortable in their comfort zone (otherwise known in HVAC as the dead zone!), and allowed to play the victim... while some mommy or daddy like INFJ smiles softly at them like the fairy godmother and says 'oh yes poor pookie, it's not your fault 🤣
@@alicergicwonderland Oh yeah, it took me ages. And to be more specific many relationships with narcs, which have brutally opened my eyes as well as the most amazing three-decades-long personality research of Sandra Brown, MA on what she termed super traited personality.
Most INFJ's are therapists (like me). I find it a good practice to ask this question when it looks like a friend or family member is going to ask me something deep or personal: do you want me to just listen, or do you want my advice (something a therapist cannot provide ethically)! Great discussion.
It’s because we deliver the truth, even if it doesn’t sit well with the other person, because we seek objective truth not subjective platitudes nor wishful thinking.
“We seek objective truth”. What does that actually entail? I was under the impression that Ni sees truth more or less as “A frame of reference”, rather than some kind of objective truth. To me Ni seems very much about fluidity, rather than stable, solid, or reductionistic kinds of thinking. Something along the lines of deep complexity, leading to more complexity.
well Se data is our principle source of information and that is objective, same with Ti. We can also use Si data as in what’s in books. But we aim to find the truth which is naturally objective. Of course we may fall short if our data is wrong or incomplete, but our goal is always the truth.
@6:30 "The INFJ" is going to be asked to give the support but according to criteria that are derived from fantasy." Thank you, Renaud! Wonderful clarity! Apart from my own hard work, it was Cluster-B who cured me of a desire to participate in the fantasy others have of us.
We are exactly not everyone's therapist and I am now sure to inform my clients how I'm not everyone's therapist. And I've learned that some people appreciate our therapeutic relationship and some don't. When working with narcissists this is when I receive the most push back. With family and friends I've learned to enjoy my peace and quiet more than helping others. And these others tend to be people who keep coming back for more but then turn on me when they don't like what I say. So... the best form of love you can give someone is space to find their own advice through trial and error in life. I no longer have that itch to validate my existence through helping others who don't want my help. Others in life, as I have seen, can step in and facilitate that for them. It's great!! The pet peeve I have is when people specifically seek out my personal opinion or understanding of something and it is very different and often offending to the person who doesn't share that perspective. Then they get mad or angry. This causes me to withdraw and turn on myself. I'm getting better at letting it go as I get older. I don't need to twist and contort myself to make others feel comfortable. If anything, catalysts cause change so I accept this as part of engaging with others.
I don't pander to or pet their egos or false ego identity, I wouldn't even know how to do that and wouldn't be able to bring myself to wrap my head around how to do it! Plus if I did know how it would make me throw up to try. I've realized I'm left out a lot around people because they don't share my INTRINSIC (vs their extrinsic, yuck) values - which I never expected in which caught me by surprise in life thousands of times. And because they seem to bond with each other based on instantly and continually pandering to and propping up each other's egos and false, idealistic identities. Versus simply living in reality. I'm extremely kind, cheerful, supportive, enjoying things and enduring hardship, pleasant and honest. I'm not mean to anyone unless they're pushing me around multiple times, and then I'll fight back. But since I'm just blank and pleasant or very friendly, present, and honest with reality quietly, nobody's drawn to me. I'm not radiating fluff and ego petting energy 😂
Telling people what they don't want to hear, that about sums it up! Although, i can remember a time when my tidings were well received and i even experienced a notable degree of recognition for my insight. So much so that during a period of self exploration a friend convinced me to seek out a career in the field of social work. An excellent idea, and though i found it shocking at times i thrived in the work. But sadly as my philosophies made their inevitable counter cultural turn the less my perspectives were considered. No matter; the seeds being planted, almost always flourish with time, and it has become my experience that many of whom shun my opinions outright often come round to my way of thinking at later date. And yet the stigma of my initial advice deemed so egregious, still remains.
The truth can be harsh. If gentle guidance doesn't help one to see it, more direct words may be necessary. Then, the recipient can choose to become more aware and change, or to ignore it and keep living their wrongness. But at least the INFJ knows that they've delivered the message, and can move on.
I can be very blunt with people close to me… then when I realize I am being blunt, I have to soften it with the intentions behind my bluntness. I think I can hurt people when I’m speaking too much from immature Ti.
I feel like what you mention can apply to a lot of close relationships… People want feedback, but also have defenses and sensitivities that don’t necessarily lend themselves to really listening. As you mentioned, people have all kinds of fantasies which tend to try to serve as protective ground. A lot of close relationships we want both support and nurturing, feeling accepted, yet we also have a drive for continuous growth, which requires honest feedback and personal reflection. In general, I wonder how people become more skilled at discerning when people are really ready to hear certain things, and when they are not? When can something be told that will indeed spur on more growth versus shrinking back and away? What are some of the better ways of framing the feedback, so that better outcomes occur?
Doesn't it depend on situation? The question is lacking in specific examples. Maybe the advice is inadequate to people's situation or something like that.
Seems cl strife needs to be your co producer/researcher.. We hear her name ad nauseum. Nearly every video you produce she gets her name on your video. I call it as I see it. Which pisses people off. Which is why in my later years prefer the company of my dogs in nature.Aristotle said for those who go into solitude to achieve enlightenment, they are either a wild beast or a god. I rather prefer the former.
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
I've experienced this many times. People don't want the truth, they want to hear what they want to hear.
Soliciting INFJs' advice and and then resenting it is reflective of their own conflicting attitudes and views. Most people seem to be almost magnetically pulled toward what we have to offer and than repelled once they realize there's more than they are willing to see.
I have also learned to STOP helping, to the point of consciously choosing not to speak or only minimally address the problems shared by my friends. It gives me peace of mind, and preserves friendships. But it was a very difficult learning curve.
Very well said imo!
I think they're usually not actually seeking advice. We seem kind supportive and attentive, so what they are seeking is to be petted, succorred, fed, agreed with, helped to play the eternal victim, always made 'right' and stroked! When we actually give constructive observations or advice (which we ourselves might find valuable and see as a gift and effort from the giver!), they get angry 😂
Most people only want to be petted and allowed to remain comfortable in their comfort zone (otherwise known in HVAC as the dead zone!), and allowed to play the victim... while some mommy or daddy like INFJ smiles softly at them like the fairy godmother and says 'oh yes poor pookie, it's not your fault 🤣
I think I am still trying to come to terms with this
@@alicergicwonderland Oh yeah, it took me ages. And to be more specific many relationships with narcs, which have brutally opened my eyes as well as the most amazing three-decades-long personality research of Sandra Brown, MA on what she termed super traited personality.
Most INFJ's are therapists (like me). I find it a good practice to ask this question when it looks like a friend or family member is going to ask me something deep or personal: do you want me to just listen, or do you want my advice (something a therapist cannot provide ethically)! Great discussion.
It’s because we deliver the truth, even if it doesn’t sit well with the other person, because we seek objective truth not subjective platitudes nor wishful thinking.
the Truth and the people's denial around it - agree.
I learned a hard lesson due to it😅. Got bullied for it . Cause I made an insensitive remark to an senior in colg
“We seek objective truth”. What does that actually entail? I was under the impression that Ni sees truth more or less as “A frame of reference”, rather than some kind of objective truth. To me Ni seems very much about fluidity, rather than stable, solid, or reductionistic kinds of thinking. Something along the lines of deep complexity, leading to more complexity.
well Se data is our principle source of information and that is objective, same with Ti. We can also use Si data as in what’s in books. But we aim to find the truth which is naturally objective. Of course we may fall short if our data is wrong or incomplete, but our goal is always the truth.
Yes Ni often sees what Se doesn’t show/see
I Never Fear Judgement
@6:30 "The INFJ" is going to be asked to give the support but according to criteria that are derived from fantasy." Thank you, Renaud! Wonderful clarity!
Apart from my own hard work, it was Cluster-B who cured me of a desire to participate in the fantasy others have of us.
Everyone’s disguised 🎩therapist wow so painfully accurate
We are exactly not everyone's therapist and I am now sure to inform my clients how I'm not everyone's therapist. And I've learned that some people appreciate our therapeutic relationship and some don't. When working with narcissists this is when I receive the most push back.
With family and friends I've learned to enjoy my peace and quiet more than helping others. And these others tend to be people who keep coming back for more but then turn on me when they don't like what I say. So... the best form of love you can give someone is space to find their own advice through trial and error in life. I no longer have that itch to validate my existence through helping others who don't want my help. Others in life, as I have seen, can step in and facilitate that for them. It's great!!
The pet peeve I have is when people specifically seek out my personal opinion or understanding of something and it is very different and often offending to the person who doesn't share that perspective. Then they get mad or angry. This causes me to withdraw and turn on myself. I'm getting better at letting it go as I get older. I don't need to twist and contort myself to make others feel comfortable. If anything, catalysts cause change so I accept this as part of engaging with others.
“god sent me to piss the world off”
I don't pander to or pet their egos or false ego identity, I wouldn't even know how to do that and wouldn't be able to bring myself to wrap my head around how to do it! Plus if I did know how it would make me throw up to try.
I've realized I'm left out a lot around people because they don't share my INTRINSIC (vs their extrinsic, yuck) values - which I never expected in which caught me by surprise in life thousands of times.
And because they seem to bond with each other based on instantly and continually pandering to and propping up each other's egos and false, idealistic identities. Versus simply living in reality.
I'm extremely kind, cheerful, supportive, enjoying things and enduring hardship, pleasant and honest. I'm not mean to anyone unless they're pushing me around multiple times, and then I'll fight back. But since I'm just blank and pleasant or very friendly, present, and honest with reality quietly, nobody's drawn to me. I'm not radiating fluff and ego petting energy 😂
Telling people what they don't want to hear, that about sums it up!
Although, i can remember a time when my tidings were well received and i even experienced a notable degree of recognition for my insight. So much so that during a period of self exploration a friend convinced me to seek out a career in the field of social work. An excellent idea, and though i found it shocking at times i thrived in the work. But sadly as my philosophies made their inevitable counter cultural turn the less my perspectives were considered.
No matter; the seeds being planted, almost always flourish with time, and it has become my experience that many of whom shun my opinions outright often come round to my way of thinking at later date. And yet the stigma of my initial advice deemed so egregious, still remains.
The truth can be harsh. If gentle guidance doesn't help one to see it, more direct words may be necessary. Then, the recipient can choose to become more aware and change, or to ignore it and keep living their wrongness. But at least the INFJ knows that they've delivered the message, and can move on.
I can be very blunt with people close to me… then when I realize I am being blunt, I have to soften it with the intentions behind my bluntness. I think I can hurt people when I’m speaking too much from immature Ti.
Frustration is the root of anger. The inability to communicate the needs of the inner child.
Agreed
I don't mean to be mean, video starts at 2:30.
I say it because RUclips the platform wastes viewers' time and rarely provides entertainment or value
This has been a defining dynamic for me. Thanks for describing it.
I feel like what you mention can apply to a lot of close relationships… People want feedback, but also have defenses and sensitivities that don’t necessarily lend themselves to really listening. As you mentioned, people have all kinds of fantasies which tend to try to serve as protective ground. A lot of close relationships we want both support and nurturing, feeling accepted, yet we also have a drive for continuous growth, which requires honest feedback and personal reflection.
In general, I wonder how people become more skilled at discerning when people are really ready to hear certain things, and when they are not? When can something be told that will indeed spur on more growth versus shrinking back and away? What are some of the better ways of framing the feedback, so that better outcomes occur?
You look exactly like Lily Collins husband 👀
geez you went lying lol
@@elliottsmith7530 ? just my opinion
@@Bamgeutcutiepie my bad I mant weren't* lying lol. Ren is his doppelganger for sure lol
@ oh. Hehe right?! Totally !💯
I see the similarity haha, you're perceptive
Doesn't it depend on situation? The question is lacking in specific examples. Maybe the advice is inadequate to people's situation or something like that.
💚
Seems cl strife needs to be your co producer/researcher.. We hear her name ad nauseum. Nearly every video you produce she gets her name on your video. I call it as I see it. Which pisses people off. Which is why in my later years prefer the company of my dogs in nature.Aristotle said for those who go into solitude to achieve enlightenment, they are either a wild beast or a god. I rather prefer the former.