The Science of Detransition (with Lucy Kartikasari &
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
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I've considered detransitioning for like... a brief moment. I'm ftm, have been on the NHS waiting list since 2018 and still haven't even had my first appointment. And god, life would be so much easier if I just... wasn't trans??
But then I thought about it more and having people (well, more so than usual) use she/her pronouns or use my birth name made me feel awful so I banished that idea. Gotta be true to myself I guess
or maybe you just feel a dislike for being a woman cause no shit life would be easier being born a man and because you wouldn't be treated as "lesser" for being a woman if you weren't one. No need to combat assholes telling you you're weak or less intelligent by design if you try and convince them you're one of them too. food for thought
Ironically I’ve actually recently had detransition thoughts myself.
It was rather strange, up until a month ago I was completely fine with who I was and was completely content in my trans identity, have been for 9 years, sudden thoughts of detransition came in a dream and I’ve been unable to get my mind off of them in particular, granted this has been a stressful year so I don’t know if that’s probably contributing to it.
This was a really, really good episode. Felt like you were speaking directly to everything I’ve been feeling without having the words for. ❤
I'm not a detransitioner, because I've not been able to transition yet - I'm a few years into an NHS waiting list, too poor to go private, and getting kind of desperate to transition. I've considered "desisting", though, just because so many people around me refused to acknowledge my gender and pronouns at all, even after coming out to them, even when it could get them in trouble at work - plus, my wife is a trans woman who was lucky enough to medically transition on the NHS, so I find it easy to slip into this role of being a "cis partner of a trans person". Medical transition is looking more and more unlikely for me, so desisting feels like the path of least resistance.
What's weird is that, as a genderqueer person, seeing these detransitioners and how they look has made me realise even more that I want to go on T and have top surgery, and don't want to desist? A lot of them want to present themselves as a "warning" as to why you shouldn't transition, but to me, they have all these physical traits that I also want; I want a flat(ter) chest, I want a deeper voice, I want stronger muscles. I see them and I get jealous that they had the ability to transition at all. I've even read the advice leaflet from the (transphobic, even though they frame themselves as "neutral") detransitioner site "Post-trans", and their advice on how to deal with dysphoria without/post medical transition, and it's like...babes I already keep a journal, meditate and exercise, none of that is making my desire to transition lessen at all. And seeing that, even if I regret my transition, my life will just go on and it's not the end of the world? That IS actually important to me, and very validating.
So it's actually the work and words of detransitioners/desisters that have strengthened my desire to transition, and have stopped me from giving in and desisting!
i have the opposite experience where it was the words and work of trans women who pushed me to detransition because if they can be a woman after t-based puberty and living as boys/men, then so can i. i even remember this one article where she had talked about how she thought of her journey as a boy who wanted to be a girl who then became a woman, as opposed to always having been a woman, and it… really resonated with my own journey
@@aquaticgrass2615 Oh yeah, my wife is a trans woman, and she very much used to be a gender-nonconforming man once upon a time. At some point or another, she just realised that living that way wasn't making her as happy as living as a woman would - and as a woman, she's a lot happier and more confident in herself.
This narrative that gender is innate, binary and unchangeable just does more to trap people than it does to actually help trans and detrans people get the care they need. I do wonder if this is why that "transmed to detrans pipeline" that Kartikasari mentioned comes from? Like transmeds are infamously not great about gender-nonconforming trans people and non-binary people, so maybe after dealing with most of their dysphoria, they only THEN realise that this binary box they've been pursuing wasn't right for them?
Never considered de transitioning. Im confused : a transition is counted as detransition when a person transitions as far as they want, but not fully to the sex not assigned as birth? Is that not a completed transition then?
As far as I would define it (and it can differ) detransition is when a person stops identifying as trans, or stops medically/socially transitioning, no matter what point they detransition to
Very informative, thanks for being yalls selves and also just covering a topic like this with so much much care, also Lucy's story was so fascinating
detrans people are just as much apart of the trans community as any trans person (as long as they still wish to/align with being apart of it). hopefully someday more of the community can be more accepting to that. as discussed at the top of the episode being detrans simply means not pursuing medical transition anymore, which is something a lot of trans people end up doing, for medical, personal, and financial reasons. painting a term with a broad stroke is exactly what cis people do to us all the time.
babe wake up sci guys just posted a new video
also, to answer the question. i am non-binary and haven't made a full transition as too make myself comfortable. but the only reason in which i would ever even think about detransitioning is if i gained too many negative views in which would make my mental health decline.
Amazing episode!
I would not call detransitioners people who just stopped taking hormones because they've reached the level of change they wanted, they're just done with their transition but they did not reverse the process. They're happy with the results. It would be calling detransitioners people who don't do all the surgeries they can get and just stop at whatever surgery suits them. It would imply we're forcing every trans person to take hormones and do all the surgeries available in order to be a real teans and not a detransitioner. People who are actually happy with their transition are nit detransitioners
I’m still thinking on this as well. Non-bianry on T here. If I stop taking testosterone because I’m happy with my body (weird thought that i could reach that place)
i would consider it complete as i won’t lose the things i gained in my transition. Like if i would go on E or get laser hair removal to go back thats would be one thing but stopping T wouldn’t detransition me/ if i would lose the changes I’ve gained I would start back on it.
Loved everything else about this episode 😅
I'm trans, I've not considered detransition and don't expect to. Very happy. I've known one trans person who did detransition and she did so because she lost access to HRT and resumed after a year.
2:37 Would this include, say, a trans man who goes off hormones to get pregnant? Would that count as detransitioning? Because based on that definition it sounds like it would...
In many studies it would, form what i've seen there hasn't been a united definition on what detrans mean. The definition given my Lucy is the most useful one i've seen, and I hope it is used in the future.
This is a huge part of the problem with detrans data. There’s no one unified definition of detransition so it’s really hard to get accurate rates of anything.
I wouldn't say it's detransitionning (as a transman who went off hormones -though for other reasons-)... because I just stopped taking medecine, and didn't change anything else in my life... still 100% identifying as a man. I would personnally define detransitionning also going with social detransitionning.
i think there’s a difference between detransitioning and being detrans, the same way that there’s a difference between transitioning and being trans
I am a transwomen, i first transitioned at 36 so i was pretty sure when i choose to transition..
I do have days where life just are bad and i hate the consequences of being openly transgender. I have never though have had the thought of wishing to detransition.. I experience things i find hard because i am transgender, but they will not go away if i detransition.. i would on the other hand get more issues, and it a lot worse mentally.. 🤔
I'm a healthcare professional as work soon to be authorized. I work at a psych ward, so i get into contacts with many different mentally ill people. i know that some people mistake some other stuff for genderdysphoria, here in Denmark we do not have a "for profit" healthcare system. So when we seek HRT and surgeries, the focus are on safety.
I do not consider detransition to include people who are stopping on hrt because they got the result that they wanted. Breast dont go away if you stop estrogen, the male voice, facial hair, bone structure are not does not too.. HRT are not without risk, so if you f.x. do not have a problem with your genitalis and wants them to work, stopping HRT are the way to go, but if you still present as the gender leading to the hrt it would in my view not be detransition.
I can understand why people could want to detransition. You can be uncertain about if you are just gay or transgender and trying it out, or having a gender expression so far from the norm that it cause confusion, but no genderdysphoria, but maybe body dysmorphia 🤔
I do love the take on detransition this video takes, way more nuanced
It's interesting to think about my correlation with detransitioners. For me, I had known I was not cis for 23 of my 28 years. I identified as a transman because the way I've been aligns with what society told me cismen are like. But I just came to realize that societal gender understanding was bullshit, and people are each their own balance of masculine and feminine energies, which present differently in each person, who labels it as they see fit. After that realization, I felt more aligned with agender and less certain I want bottom surgery. Which so far sounds like I would technically fall on the detransition spectrum, even though I still consider myself trans. In my mind, "trans" includes anyone not cis, but transgender is a further specification that does not include all transpeople. If you have a better way to explain it I'm also open to that. Love your videos and the trans community I still feel very much a part of.
I considered detransition as a possibility before starting HRT, as a part of exploring all possibilities. I'm glad I considered it, but I am much happier as I am now. Thank you for this wonderful episode.
I have not considered transitioning because it was very clear that if I had to go back I would rather die.
I think every word we associate with people who undo their transition, regardless of reason, is going to to be politicized and given a negative connotation for a long time. Look at the evolution of words we use to call people gay or trans. We change because the oppressive class uses it as an insult or to inflict harm, so we look for another word until there is enough power for us to hold on to it.
Stephen Hawking listed in the description as appearing in the video lol
great discussion! was wondering if you would ever do a video on epilepsy?
I've been listening to the episodes in order for at least a year now and now I'm finally caught up
I (socially) detrasitioned in the early 00s, then started retransition in 2018. (I just heard that technically I disisted.)
I think that detrans as a label is tricky because it's not even well defined for most folks. Myself included.
thanks for this episode, I learned a lot and it made me realized how subconciously scared of detrans people being weaponized I am, so now I'm gonna go to a corner to sit with that lol
EARLY(ish) TO A SCI GUYS EPISODE?!?!
Nice open discussion. What I would like to be educated on is how a trans man would want to stop testosterone to get pregnant, if truly having gender dysphoria as female, wouldn’t becoming pregnant be the female experience ‘on steroids’ so to speak? I can’t make it make sense.
Some people really want biological kids
I recommend looking up one Freddy McConnell, a UK-based trans activist who took the government to court over being correctly gendered on his children's birth certificates (despite being legally male, he's listed as the "mother" to his children, and, rather than seeing how stupid this is, the courts doubled-down). McConnell ran a podcast, "Pride and Joy", talking about the ways in which LGBT+ people create, expand, and raise their families - and he's talked enough about his own experience as a trans parent that, if you want more education on that topic, the information is out there.
At the moment I suppose I’ve medically detransitioned, but definitely not desisted. I’ve been off the hormones I was taking for nine months due to a severe fear of needles and issues with my clinic and insurance. I feel like being showed what my life could be like on those hormones, then being forced to learn to love myself without them has been big for me, but I wouldn’t identify as a detransitioner, and I plan to continue my transition eventually.
Omg I love just the audio of a guest. The soundwave on the scene is SO satifsying and sensorily nice to watch 🥰
More audio guest!!
I'm fine with audio-only guests, but even though I liked the visuals I had to watch in a small window instead of fullscreen, and look away from the screen every time the visualiser came up because it was distracting me from what was being talked about. And I don't even particularly have problems with flashing imagery.
I have a lot of questions about how Lucy ended up where she is. And not as a criticism to her story whatsoever, it sounds fascinating and she sounds like a lovely person, but there are a lot of things that are hard to understand, at least to me based on my knowledge of gender and such. Like, does this mean she never had gender dysphoria? Or she did and it changed? And if she didn't actually have gender dysphoria, what lead her to transition? And what _did_ she have that presented so similarly to gender dysphoria that is was misdiagnosed as such on three separate occasions? And for what reason did she have all those surgeries, if not gender dysphoria? I guess maybe because that's what "trans guys do" but I don't think most trans guys get their ovaries and uterus out, at least not unless they're also getting bottom surgery, which she didn't mention but maybe she did do and just didn't mention. I just want to know what her motivations/reasons were, not in a bad way I'm just really curious, like if it wasn't actually her gender driving her to transition what was? Because there had to be some reason right? Like I know she thought she was a guy but what made her think that if she wasn't really? Or did her gender change? Is she like gender fluid but it changes over many years? But she didn't talk like that was what happened.
Think about asking this many questions about a trans person - it’s maybe a bit rude to ask questions in this way. I’d recommend checking out her tiktok and watching a few videos :)
Luke seems different
Luke looks exactly the same
@@NoahTheHumanFlea they must've changed the frame r smthng
15:00 EXACTLYYYY
I like Corry's shirt
Nice video but I don’t know about this estimation of 10-20% of detransitioners. Like sure, I get why it would be higher than 1% but to pump it up to 1/5 with no reaserch on that is a bit weird to say at least?
(and I know Cory said that we just don’t know, but I’m only talking about what Lucy said, because at least that 1% from Noah was based on existing data)
I'm assuming it includes social detransitioners who never medically transitioned? I could be misremembering context of the conversation (medical vs social) but that 0.4-2% does only include medical detransitioners
@@al3xf132 it was about medical one, reasoning was that the people who come to get HRT prescription once and never come back are not counted
@@zalletu Ah, yeah that seems a bit overexaggerated then, I'd think somewhere from 1-5% of medical transitioners detransition then, based on what I've seen online/in life (admittedly biased) and studies I've read
Irl experiences here, a man in a grocery store called my cis boyfriend a "lady" and the only reason we could think of is because of his height. People became really rude since the upcoming elections. judging trans people over drinks and misgendering trans and cis people. I have never heard and seen so much hate for trans people as this year. its sad
I really ejoyed this episode. It made me feel more comfortable in my just being me. i have some feminine traits and some masculine, and the fact that i (wish to) resemble a female dwarve, is my own path 😊
Yes it's very simple to work out trans don't exist so sarah is 100 % woman
🎉 thank you for existing ! You did this subject in such a great way with much nuance and from different perspectives. Great guest as well. ❤ 5
trans* and detrans solidarity
Can Noah do anything about PragerU?
nahhh
@@NOAHFINNCE Ah well. A pity.
Can someone explain the maths here ? People say Trans people is 1% but you say de-trans people is also 1% ? Are you saying 1% of 1% or (.01 x .01)?
We talk about trans people as a percentage of the general population, and detrans people as a percentage of the population who transition.
uh…. no. also i think anyone who makes the decision to de transition is valid and should be supported
Ahh 1% of 1% of the population. Definintely who we should focus on
This is totally confusing... i gave up at 29 minutes
The doctor didn't explain it very well. Bringing homosexuality into the whole conversation was a total sidetrack.. By the way I'm 70 years old and I have been gay all my life , it was not a choice or a lifestyle choice it was innate.