Unbeatable "Troll" Strategy?
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- In a previous video I highlighted this strategy which seems pretty unbeatable when it gets going. This time MbL attempts it vs a top 100 player who very much knew how to adapt throughout the madness. What are your thoughts? Check out the previous video for context - • The "New" Town Center ...
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Changed title to “unbeatable troll strategy” because I don’t think this will be tournament meta anytime soon 😂 (Unless your name is Jupe or Rubenstock lol!)
ah i was wondering 😅
Best way to beat this strat, play as persians
... or Lyx
Well he clearly is worse player macro and micro wise. The strategic mistakes were ofc bad tower on berries (in range of tc and unwalled fully) if he had it one tile further away and walled..
Towering mbl woodline is absolute net loss. Since he used more then one will to do that, and all it did was force mbl to spend wood for new lumber camp+very small idle time... there is plenty of free wood.
He should have palisade walled/house walled his pond. Having one secure pond would do wonders for him. And just scouts or archers depending if he has access to gold to counter parts of the map where mbl TC isn't.
sooo. here's a thought. What happens when the Persian tc rushes you and you keep making vils while sending a team of vils to the original Persian base to place your own town center either on the gold, water, or berries? The Persian would be statistically behind you due to the need to keep villagers in the tc idle to break your original tc. while you just kinda swap original resource piles. You would gain initiative with knowing what resources you want to contest.
T90: "Unbeatable strategy!"
T90 30 seconds in: "It doesn't always work."
Clickbaited.
There is a ? mark at the end, not a ! mark.
You can get easily clickbaited if you can't read though... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@oki7716 I JUST WON 10 MILLION DOLLARS ???
Its unecessary crap title question mark or not
@@sc4r214 I think everybody has a filter, namely his/her brain.
If you don't want to watch videos with titles of the same pattern you just don't.
But complaining afterwards won't solve your problem.
It's an unbeatable strategy if it succeeds.
60% of the time it works every time!
I only hear fish and chips
One does not simply lame MBL.
Seriously. It will end in you having a bad time.
12:02 the original intro for aoe2 was 2 kings playing chess and seeing the 3D battle as well
well you can argue real life strategy games have similarities to chess.
@Dominus Umbrae wow you're a fast one, aren't you. smh
T90 at 3:15: “I watch AOE2 games for the plot.”
And I watch it for that sweet XXXX action.
Blue's eagle saw the forward vills, he couldve stopped it.
nah his eagle was weak at that time. Mbl had plenty of vills to take it out
@@tjakaiti7167 Single eagle couldn't have stopped it anyway. The only way to stop it at this point is to build a tower as blue did and spam palisade walls around your TC.
he thought it would be some towers thats why he defended with just a tower
@@lordmetzgermeister He had enough time to build houses in the perfect spots, didn't he? He didn't realize that many vills was a feudal age douche.. one tower in a good spot defended by TC and this strat wouldn't work..
@@mauer1 when being forwarded by Persian villagers never assume it'll just be a tower
"Unbeatable" --> in video title
First 30 seconds: "it doesn't always work"
*Well yes, but actually no.*
It depends
10% of the time it works every time
It's unbeatable when it works.
When myrina spot the vills moving forward why he don t place random palisade walls to deny th space to build the TC ?
Must not have spotted it. I thought it was obvious at 5:25 as well, but T90 didn't see it either.
Most likely he didn't expect a TC drop this far in the game
@@rogerwilco2 There's a reason why t90Blind exists as an emote though. That was right there in the open and caster was casting too much.
@pranav Is fine maybe, but at least to me if I see Persian villagers go forward I immediately assume the Douche. While any civ can theoretically go tower rushing, Persians are not on top of Koreans, Spanish, or Incas.
@pranav Is fine It's a build order that still involves the Douche, which is what makes mbl's usage of it so great here. In multiplayer games, you can see even top 20 players even struggle against TC drops like from against Rubenstock or Jupe even when they see it coming. If mbl works more on this as a proper build order that simply involves the drop rather than centers around it, then it could be a viable strategy in tournament.
After all, no one thought that Inca villager rushing would be a legitimate tournament-level build order.
Imo blue did everything right, but his execution was off. Little instances like his the first tower, not walling all towers completely etc was what lost him the game. Goes back to what T90 is always saying about the top players, little things can swing games
This is what I came to the comment section to look for. Blue was just always making small mistakes. He would have been in the better position had he of put more initial military in each lake. Why did he assume he was the only one in the right lake?
The fact he didnt just make farms to back up his eco and go to castle age asap was also a big reason he lost. His TC was protected so there was no excuse why he couldnt have tried to get a lot more food instead of relying purely on the Ponds which will always be under pressure.
Yes. He really needed to commit more to pond control when that was his only source of food. After losing the left pond and failing to defend against MbL's trush, he had 2 on food and none on gold. Not even market abuse can save that eco.
@@llamasaylol didn't patrol too in the south lake
@@Boethion i dont think thats true either. If you let your opponents get the ponds freely, youll be behind significantly in eco. Whats Castle going to do? knights, mangonels?
Kai is as known as Ertug which is a cheater in aoe2, so i am really glad he suffered
"Unbeatable Strategy?" first 30 seconds @T90 says, "Playing against a top 50 player, highest player I've seen him try it against, well actually succede against. It doesn't work every time." Well then clearly it is not unbeatable. Now I'm not trying to critisize T90, I just found it amusing XD
Liked because of the not criticizing t90
It is all part of the strategy. First he uses the pro youtuber move (clickbait title) and then he uses his pro streamer abilities to sabotage his own video so you stop watching youtube and go to twitch
🤣 😂 🤣 😂 🤣 😂 🤣 😂 🤣 😂
topgirljp.buzz/txYoTxT7OOo
Its called an hyperbole.
You said it doesn't always work, can you cast a game where it fails?
there was a recent game with viper, 4v4 i suppose?!, where viper gets rushed and defends. he even says, at top level this tactic wont work
@@BuGGyBoBerl i have seen that, this is a completely different scenario to the one viper was in
i do know a player is unlikely to run this in a big tournament, but it will still be interesting to see where this strategy goes wrong
Once some player did TC drop to me in dark age. The only problem was that I had the Persians and not him. So in that case, it didn't quite work out for him :D
@@Crushnaut yeah would be great to see. however it wasnt thaaaat different. no pond fighting sure, a brief scout intervention of other players, but mostly it was a straight 1v1 in the beginning
@@BuGGyBoBerl the intent and execution were different. Viper and was it vivi both knew that they had a team behind them. That would have played out differently without a team. The fish completely changes the strategy for mbl. In a TC rush food can be tricky. Having safe fish eco changes the dynamic.
T90: This strategy is unbeatable
Fatslob: Hold my beer
Fatslob does not play 4 lakes
@@DanielSultana I know my dude, but if Fatslob *did* play 4 lakes...
What I'm suggesting is - Mbl couldnt send the boys in to TC drop if there was sufficient walling.
Just spit balling tbh
I like when they do naughty things to their opponents lol
i would have deleted MY towncenter and then building it on his base.
FATSLOB has the true unbeatable strategy
Y’all know If this happened to mbl on ranked he would cry about it for 30 min lol
I thought you were saying "fish'n chips" instead of'fishing ships'.
I'd like to see MBL doing this against Viper, so we can see how do deal with it properly lol
Awesome strat! :P. I love that the meta can break even after 20 years.
Maybe blue shouldn't have gone so heavy on stone and tower mbl's initial base but instead go to all the ponds initially for extra food eco and produce some scouts to kill mbl initial base.
But then again, I'm not nearly as good as these guys :P.
Good point about spending villager time on stone and wood! I think that's maybe what a real PRO player would do. Spend time and resources on something else. But then you need a comparable to MBL's micro to outmatch the player like him in order to fight over the ponds while still maintaining land control.
i think blue should have picked persians and tc rushed mbl
Since this strategy is optimal for Persians and is about Tc drop in feudal age and not dark age maybe there's sufficient time to predict that the opponent may be going for it and cover all the areas near your TC. Also blue here used his scout to lure MBL's boar and it was low so he couldn't use it much to get intel about what MBL was going for.
Honestly, I think it is the skill difference not necessary the strategy, cause MBL and multitask way more efficiently and make fishing ships and fight on water while working on land but blue can not keep up with the pace.
I agree with this, I think the TC drop didn't cause the subsequent better performance by MBL. After the dust has settled, they've both lost a TC and had to use the same resources to build a new one, and they've both lost the same villager production time while building their new TC. So they're basically even after that exchange. MBL wins the battle for the water after that because he is a better player with a faster rate of working in the game.
@@breeminator Yeah, if MBL chose other strategy, the game will end even early, to prove this actually works, you need the opponent to be top 20 at least.
Last video before I go to sleep
Hi, im kind of late to the party but wouldn’t it work to just garrison a lot of vils yourself and try to shoot the dropped tc yourself? I mean you should have a slight lead because the tc dropper had to build a tc and had more idle time walking a third of his economy over to your base. That‘s what i keep thinking… i mean if you shoot down the dropped tc your enemy will have a seriously hard time
Accept your base is lost, and focus on crippleing the persians base by building defence towers and 1 stack wood walls so the rush cant be repeated.
Perhaps even in the original base of the opponent.
1 stack wood walls could have prevented the rush in the first place, and it is hardly a surprise that it might happen when playing against persians.
You might even surprise any semi low elo player who didn't do a proper scouting before the rush ;)
because of your low elo legends I decided to play my 1st rank game. I couldn't beat the bots on hardest, but i tried to play a rank game and it was super fun and even i won :D
Yes, T90, I do remember that upload.
Edit: Cause now I have watched it... ;D
topgirljp.buzz/YKuTy6tl6Q1
I really like all your videos T90 and don't take this the wrong way, but I'm disappointed that in an awesome game like this you barely never said ''red'' but MBL instead, but the for the most of us unknown player who is doing really well gets called ''blue'' most of the time. Give the man some credit for being so high up the ladder and use his name :)
The blue player is a smurf account and changes his name weekly. This is why I didn't call him by an "identity" and rather used his color instead, to not bring attention to that fact.
@@T90Official 1) can you upload an example of when it failed?
2) who is the account a Smurf of?
@@T90Official Thanks for clearing that up :) I understand it now. I shouldn't have questioned ur proffecionality as always.
This strategy is trash. Please upload equal players trying it on equal player and don't omit the loses.
This strat is so stupid. It's one of those cheese strats that should only work once in a dozen games and be super inconsistent but apparently it is not. Probably as you said because persians are so strong.
It really ought to be nerfed. Stuff like this (and I squarely blame T90 for popularizing it) is why I'm concerned about playing online. I don't really understand why, apart from this strat, Persians need 4800 HP TCs anyway?
I would be more interested in seeing the videos were this isn't successful
How to beat this start? Easy;
1) Let your tc get destroyed while keeping vill production
2) find your new spot for a tc that is not too close to the old spot
3) wall up your new spot and prepare to defened against towers.
4) MUST PROTECT YOUR GOLD AND STONE, if it's not possible wall them off so your opponent won't mine them and go take his original gold and stone
DISCLAIMER: I don't really have any idea what I'm saying, i mostly play against the ai (so tell me if it works)
@@ivan24zg i was thinking of towering your own minerals but it would just lead to a tower war while you have the disadvantage of having worse eco than the other guy
I watched Viper being dush, and he resolved the situation, waiting, as always Viper Style. So, he waited, and waited, and waited. Finally, his TC went down, and rebuild it somewhere else and did only eco. Then he reached Castle Age and made a come back. Two things was different, that was a TG and was in Arabia, so, i don't know how that way works on Four Likes 1v1.
Well yeah, Arabia has no fish economy.
Fishing is too good.
Especially because you can add more earlier.
you can have 8 docks building fish eco in feudal while having just one tc for villager.
Also they collect faster I think.
So double the goods.
So, maybe a good strategy is to build your houses and other buildings in locations that would prevent a TC drop to be within range of your TC
Blue can just completely prevent the TC from being built after he scouts the enemy vills by just blocking some tiles near his TC. Still, even after mbl got the TC up he seemed to be a little bit ahead. He had so much wood floating around, he could have secured the other ponds or built a market to help with the villager production.
20:50 To answer your question: Blue should have gone back in time and pick Persians for this game xD
maybe if the other guy was cumans, it could have worked with rams and multiple TCs in fedual
The Viper defeated this a few days ago in a 4v4.
The game was amazing but your commentary was particularly accurate and analytical. Really, this is one of the most instructive games I've seen, at least on the grand-vision, overall-strategy side.
Stop it T90 we all know you like naughty things, don't you 😏😏
6:04 "I'm not sure if he saw the vills or what."
5:24 Blue's eagle casually strolls along with MB's vills.
Blue should have built palisade walls all around his TC. I know this, because I'm an AoE2 expert. You can hire me for teaching AoE2.
Maybe he should have build his TC in MBL's emty base ! And walling off at least 2 ponds. And lame more boars :D
Wall already in dark age, prob double, one pond too. Furthermore try to send at least 2 to stone a d save for a castle or emergency tower. Build houses and other buildings near your tc. Furthermore go feudal aggression or fc and try to pressure mainly on his vills.
Blue towers were useless
Best tower was 6:55 which he didn't wall correctly and Red took it down with villagers...
I guess, as soon as you see your opponent has Persians, start polka dotting your base with walls. Not full walling, but just enough to prevent their TC from going up.
This guy is playing MBL, his eagle spots at least 6-7 Persian vils forwarding him, and yet he doesn't place any house or palisade foundations around his tc. I too like to live dangerously from time to time, but this is some next level carefree playstyle. Not really indicative of a top 100 player. Everything else he did was pretty spot on though, but letting the douche happen in the first place was a great mistake on his behalf.
I think you need to let the TC go up and immediately full migrate back to your enemies base where their taking wood and stone. Do exactly what blue did here with the towers but instead of rebuilding a tc at where the persian player dropped theirs on you, literally grab every vill except a couple on wood/stone(so leave like 4 on wood, 2 on stone or something) grab every other vill and immediately go to the enemy base, tower important resources and vill fight whatever is there(most people leave like 6-8 at home when douching), assuming you have numbers; you should be able to lay a tc at your opponents base, have towers that previously denied his woodlines/resources protecting yours, you'll likely have 1 pond back where your old base is left at least for a while, and then since your TC and economy is at the persians player old TC spot, you can go 2 dock water pressure on his starting pond, which then leaves you 2 v 2 ponds and relatively decent economy to try to boom with. In essence; a base and pond swap. A total migration and reversal of starting locations. Yes you will likely still be down some economy, but at least your relatively safe with all the resources you need. This would at least make the game far closer.
Edit: You could possibly try to lame your own resources as-well when migrating to the persians player base, wall in your resources, tower them if your floating res at that point; anything you can do to slow down the persian boom slightly so that economy disadvantage you have when doing a full map migration can be caught up as much as possible.
It sounds crazy to lame your own starting resources, but if your against this strategy, I think you need to try to do it if you can.
Edit 2: I am Rsgoldtime by the way, Hallo :D.
I think the initial reaction was amazing from him. tower his / your old berries (didnt wall, lost tower - opponent got recources back), Dock his pond, place defensive tower.
Disrupt him with towers, im not sure i like towers on the woodline. Theres enough wood, and its -at best slowing down your opponent. But the tower at the end is going to be a net loss. If you manage to tower his golds, youre disrupting fire galleys and his advance to the next age. Also Gold is easier to deny, as he cant move.
However, i think you really need to wall your pond right away or wall another pond if that one has failed. if you have one uncontested pond it should be enough to get you to castle economically.
You might have 2 options from here. Either go into archer agressively, to disrupt even more economy, or focus on a fast castle age into siege / archer.
you dont want to overcommit on feudal
Wouldn't Cumans be a good counter? You could just start building the "second" TC as soon as you see the TC drop and be fine
Some (quick-)walling to slow down the incoming douche might have helped, as TheViper showed a few days ago. Also, blue was generally too late at the ponds because he set the wrong priorities. Pond/food control should probably have taken more priority over tower wars/resource denial as you're at a disadvantage with towers/tc's to begin with.
Thanks a lot for that much RUclips only content! I'm really digging this.
Pretty sure T90 is in love with MBL. Lorena probably jelly
Health bonuses should probably be staggered.
200% in Imperial age.
150% in Castle age.
125% in Feudal age.
You just need to let it go. Do not repair or build towers. Build normal and bare with it. Eventually you will be Castle Age first and the opponent will be crushed. I never lost to TC rush ever. I'm 1250 ELO.
Probably going with Bulgarians and Drush/M@A the TC drop. Bulgarians might not be a Persian counter but maybe a MbL counter.
@T90Official - Age of Empires 2 I saw MB doing this vs KASVA and he also won and I guess KASVA is better than Myrina. :)
Blue countered it ok-ish, the problem is he was against a top5 player he had very little chance of winning against in the first place who practiced the strategy beforehand.
As you said, the lack of food really hurt him. His pond was quite far away from his new TC and MBL's TC was closer to it, so the moment he saw MBL trying to dock it was the deciding one. Blue should've either denied all docks there, or switched to the northern pond with 2 docks/farm eco ASAP. Blue tried the minimal viable defense (1 galley, 2 vils) and paid for it by losing the pond.
Another thing was, Blue's vills building towers in MBL's first base was a wasted effort. The dock there was fine, but towers are only useful when you corner someone so they can't take that resource anywhere else. MBL at that point didn't really need stone, his food eco was all on water across the 4 ponds, his main gold was mostly secure and never towered, and half of his wood eco was at blue's base while the other half could've been easily relocated to any other woodline on the map. The resources/time invested in the offensive towers would've been better spent on eco, securing his own resources, securing ponds or making something capable of killing MBL's vills. The archers at the very end were a good idea, but they were something like 15 minutes too late. One archery range and 5 archers instead of the towers could've easily killed multiple undefended villagers (of which there were still 11 there). Blue collected over 2k stone and used up almost 1800 of it, most of which maybe delayed a few of MBL's vills for a couple seconds.
To all you non pros thinking about using this strat: Remember, it is unbeatable if, and only if, the following conditions are met:
1. TC must go up
2. Control all the ponds
3. Be able to play messy games at or above the level of MbL
4. Be a chess player of kasparovian magnitude
5. Thou must be fueled by righteous anger and lust for revenge, for the oponent shall only be defeated by this strategy as punishment for having wronged you in the past
6. Civ is Persians
7. Color red
8. Map Cross
I mean after the TC was dropped I don't think there's much blue could have done differently.
BUT knowing enemy is playing persians on a map that allows such strategy and you are mayans, just build 1 tile cheap stone walls around you base in such way that you can't get TC dropped, in this case, 3 stone walls would have been enough to keep MBL TC away.
Honestly blue had more on food for the majority of the game, while T90 jizzes about how much more MBL has on food. Blue fell behind simply because he had loads of TC idle time, while MBL had none, which IMO opinion is one of the biggest differences between a top 100 and a pro player. How they deal with pressure. The TC drop creates tons of pressure, really makes a messy game, but pros dont really have idle time, whereas less skilled players will try to react to whatever is going on and will have idle time, thus falling behind in vils. I think that this is why you dont really see pros lose to TC drops, because players like Viper, Hera, or Yo dont feel the same pressure, but remain calm and keep making vils
Alright let's get countering, since you asked.
Before anything, the Strat is pretty good in that you cant simply try to one-trick solution it, no matter what happens if a player with less skill tries to overcome this purely with a better strategy, they will still lose to being overwealmed by having too many things to do. So it's pretty good, but it doesn't seem unbeatable to me, the attacker suffers more losses than gains over the course of the attack.
First: Reality check. You don't fall behind in eco when you rebuild the town center, well, not as much as the attacker. You do fall behind, but the TC rusher has to pay the same price 5:54. The TC rusher has a bit of an advantage in that he can time his TC rebuild immediately after finishing a worker. The loss can be remedied and even improved into an advantage by 2 things, Firstly, when your TC gets low, it would be worth spending a tiny bit of resources to make sure "it dies at a good time", immediately after finishing a worker/loom, etc. It's harder for you, sure, but you can also actually gain an advantage when rebuilding your town center compared to the opponent - When you build yours, you have more villagers available. The more villagers, the less eco loss. In the above video, MBL built his TC with 10-11 workers 5:58 , But blue built his TC with 5 workers 7:54 . This means blue has a greater down time on his TC, thus loses production. You should be able to build back your TC faster, since you have more villagers available. Persians may still be ahead because of the persian vil production boost. But they'd have that anyway, regardless of TC rushing or not
The Tower to defend your new TC + new woodline spot is unfortunately essential, as you have said, you will get villager rushed without it. This is the only tower (and extra stone) you need. However, when you build it back, you should be able to have more villagers than blue did because...
Attacking with a tower is a waste of time without ground military to support it, the TC rusher will move his lumber camp away from the tower, just like MBL did, it's cheaper to build that lumber camp than it took to build the tower, so its a net gain for the opponent, not to mention the walk time to get to the opponents eco. If you have military, you could zone poorly defended areas, but you don't, so it's not worth it
The walk time is especially notable, since the TC rusher has spent soo much resources walking over his TC builders (they aren't working), that's where you gain an instant large eco advantage, in addition to the time villagers have spent firing arrows from TC
The next step is to build a scout camp or archery range. Most likely an archery range, since your opponent is relying on walls to defend his skeleton economy at home, and you can effectively reduce the amount of area the new TC protects with range. It's probably best to build this near your new TC simply because you can guarantee it goes up and costs less. Your opponent can match this with his own archers/scouts, but he should have less eco, as shown by above reasons, in addition, he had to idle 1/3 of his economy to shoot down your TC. - You do have to try to win.
As for your dock. You do want to try to block of the villager with walls, but you shouldn't give it up 'simply because the villager got in'. Once a dock has finished, you should be going fire galleys. In such a small area, you won't get enough galleys to beat fire galleys From there, it plays like most standard water, try not to get demo'd, and you should win from having bigger numbers, you can always build more docks to match the opponent, etc. fishing ships loses are massive resource losses when you can simply match the opponent's ships, resource for resource, and not lose anything.
You can try for the second pond, treating it the same as standard play for water from that point on. If the TC rusher pushes you off gold, remember that he doesnt have military, and there's no way for him to successfully push you off neutral gold, for similar reasons to why you can't push him off wood.
The rest should play out more standardly, you should have a large resource advantage, but your opponent (the TC rusher), should have a bit better map control owing to pushing you off your starting TC
ok so i stop this one i will be back when i finish the other one. ok so a stupid question from someone who dont play AOE 2 anymore or have played DE just watched T90 ...Is "viable a strategy" doing a TC drop was cumans ( i think is that) since he can drop a extra TC on feudal and still running a economy on the back on the base?
1. When against persians invest in an outpost so you see him coming.
2. When you see his vills start building houses/pallisades to prevent an 4x4 area from existing, so he can't get the foundation going.
3. Petition Microsoft to remove building armor during construction. That way you can just shoot the thing down.
What to do if you get persian douched?
Pick Cumans, build two TC's vs enemy single TC, you win, cause more attack.
Counter is simple.
MbL needs time to build a new TC, after he deleted it. Exectly the same time the opponent needs to build a new one, after it is destroyed.
There is no loss in economy here.
Opponents lose to this strategy, simply because they are worse than MbL in protecting ponds and balancing the economy.
You don't even need to go agressive, tower rush MbL or make archers. Just win 1-2 ponds, build counter towers if needen and go Castle Age.
There was a loss in eco because the Tc drop denied kai berries and gold. He did rebuild immediately but couldnt go near early eco necessities. He tried to deny MBLs eco aswell, but it wasnt as devastating as having his start location ruined.
@@nicholasarena7419 so rebuild in mbls base with those berries and gold
@@nicholasarena7419, gold will not always be in range of TC and there is an option to mine secondary gold or use market (mb mine/sell stone). And if you have enough fish, then berries are not necessary.
I haven't played AoE2 for like 7 years, but could you just set up your own TC in the enemies original base and just trade starting zones? Again haven't played in years (and when I did I was too young to really understand what I was doing beyond button mashing) so I dont know if theres something making that not possible
Maybe, Build a TC in the opponent base where the original TC was?
T90, i love you. But seriousley dawg, title says "unbeatable strategy" and 20 seconds in to the video you say "highest skill lvl to attempt this against, at least successfully, it doesnt allways work" you do realise the bounce rate u get from that from people who is looking to learn new strats searching "aoe strategy" or something similar. You are screwing your own algorithm dude. Just a tip. Change the title to something equally clickbait just more accurate, for your own sake.
Cmon T90, how can you not put in the title the fact that this was done against the infamous cheater Ertug in the comments, so much drama on aoezone happened 11 (Now I finally see why MBL made a comment he is glad he killed Ertug with TC drop)
You need to have water, otherwise you won't have a proper eco. Thats's the crucial thing. You cannot properly farm under your tc. But blue als made the mistake and reacted way too much on it with towers. He should have made archers instead of towers. He was Mayans anyway. With archers he would have been able snipe vils in mbls homebase and snipe fishingships. 6-8 Archers would have changed the game completely. The problem is, as long as you do not fully wall in your towers they are useless and even worse when they are in range of a tc. And if they are fully walled in you need to have vils in otherwise the other player will build another tower and garrison vils in. As I said millitary is key here. Archers/knights in Castle Age and TC rush is countered.
Persian TC and Dock HP bonus could be reduced to 1.5x. It's still a lot and you can still win douches more or less reliably, without being so overpowered.
This strategy is so powerful, I tried it out on the AI and I was able to beat Hard AI on my 1st try, Hardest AI on my 1st try, and then Extreme AI on my 2nd try. I've never beaten the AI on anything above Moderate before.
Edit: In the video he says that you can only do the trick with Persians, but I found it works even better with Cumans because you can get a second town center in feudal age and you can keep your home economy going while you trash their base.
Blue did see the forward and was probably trying to take the theoretical advantage and did tower mbl at his base. having wood at his new TC saved mbl, he had 20 on wood and had no problem dropping all those docks. blue had secured his own stone and gold so i think he should have let mbl have the ponds initially and tried to go faster to castle age with farm eco. Maybe adding few eagles along with the towers on MbL's base to clear that up completely. Usually the player who goes to farms first is the one getting to castle age first. Then he could've taken back the ponds with fire ships and castle drop on MbL's TC. Even if MbL reaches to castle age and is able to place multiple TCs elsewhere, blue would have the ponds and his main gold back and should try to take MbL's main base with military playing it just 1 or 2 TCs going forward.
Can somebody explain to me what in the world blues gameplan was befor the douche. Booming and fighting for the ponds?
btw he actually noticed the vills. He immediately went to stone.
Ask Viper to challenge MBL to do this against him. Let the TC go up, and ask for the recording, then we'll know the counter strategy for this.
Hey T90 love your content, but can you try not to spoil us 10seconds into the video what will happen in the video? WIll be more excitement then. Also you do this time to time with titles. I really do enjoy more watching stuff when i dont know what is going to happen.
2nd dont judge me
The counter to this is to realize your opponent is going Persians, and to spend some wood to house or palisade around the front of your TC. Probably do this when you go up to Feudal. At that point the opponent is invested in the forward, and any extra time they give you will put you ahead. Blue saw the forward coming, and didn't do anything to counter it before MBL started building it.
1 thing blue tried to do but failed was walling in his pond and dock. Considering that was a fail I would think farms to be better because they are easier to protect. The other is that I still don't see a market. Don't go for blacksmith get market first so you can use it to battle scarcity and to potentially click up to the next age, especially if you have stone. That's it. Everything else is perfect. Even better than my theory, because it was weak to towers on resources.
Well for players on the same level as MBL. Forward walls so his TC drop don't hit him, fast castle, onagers. I mean he could have drushed too upgrade then castle. I don't think these players are the same as level as MBL. I'd like to see this vs someone in the top 20.
i dont see how idling 1/3 of your villagers.. sending them forward and building a new tc and letting vills sit in the tc instead of gathering stuff puts you ahead economically. All ´the enemy has to do is focus on taking and protecting the ponds and keeping that wood eco.
Has anybody tried or seen a feudal TC drop with Cumans? On the one hand it does take longer to build and it doesn't have the extra Persian HP, but then you can still have your original TC working all the time.
Persians are OP full stop. They get so many bonuses and things that help them. It saying they should be nerfed but other weaker civs should get some buffs.
full force fight with villagers to kill enemy villagers trying to build up TC? you can keep creating vills while enemy cant, so taking loses to prevent the enemy TC to go up is just fine in my opinion. Also scout is huge to spot the TC rush or to kill vills.
According to Viper, if you are douched, just accept the TC loss and make a new one as the game goes on. Repairing it just enters a snowball you cant really stop.
I mean, it still costs you a TON of idle time to do a forward TC, does it not? I think you should use that advantage to win water. You might even be able to take 3 ponds.
I think MBL would have been in a pretty shitty position if blue defended his pond and built more on MBLs pond.
I don't think so. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you time it just right the only idle time would be while you are building the new TC. You don't need to delete your old TC until right before you build the new one.
Edit: I misread your comment. I thought you said idle TC time.
Counter Strategy? Delete your own TC, send your vils to the next pond, open some beers and have a good time. Let MBL wastes his time.
Ideas:
1. pick Persians as well; or
2. move TC if this is done to you
(I don't play AOE.)
I am not a AoE player but it seems to me the advantage is twofold. The docks obvs but the TC denies and steals eco. So instead of rebuilding your TC at your base, you rebuild at their base and steal their eco.
This is very much like the board game of Go.
A TC drop is very comparable to a 3 3 invasion in the opponents corner
Just reminding Kai is known cheater from voobly times called Ertug. in DE he is either abusing spectator mode or stream sniping in order to know where opponent has sheep boar or villagers
The way to beat this is multitasking. Blue countered alright but he couldnt keep up with MBL multitask level so he lost.
I think that, as you said, the only error of blue was wait for mbl to move in order to react.
In this cases, i think that the way to go is just make the investment of the enemy not worth it. Mbl is using a lot of his recourses in order to private blue from his ones. If red is success, blue must to recover while mbl is still gathering more. If blue had taken more care about his income than the incom of mbl, he had had the edge becouse every single investemnt from red would had been a lost.
Instead, every move from mbl was worth it and most of blue ones were not
when someone wants to tc drop you and you see it coming, why not just attacking the vills with all the vills you have? that way you will have the upper hand in the fight and deny the tc. blue saw the tc drop coming, but didn't really do much other than placing a kinda weak tower.
well the main counter of too much water control is get land control.
But when persians get this tc up, they will have land control.
so I guess gud luck mate.
I’m not a good player yet, but what if you put your TC on their side? So you guys just end up switching positions..
Meh, It's a pity he only does this to gank lower ranked players. Would like to have seen him try it in hidden cup against closer competition.
Yea, I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer...but it is too strong. There should be some kind of a balance to prevent this.