The war wouldn't be over because of the problems with the senior leadership of the NCR & these problems would allow the legion to take the dam then the legion would waste resources like the NCR trying to keep it, it would be a back & forth for decades.
The NCR wins due to the production capabilities of industrial societies more guns, more people. If they adopted full WW1 tactics and used IDF, and possibly even trench warfare, they should have no reason to lose other than their lack of knowledge and experience in conventional warfare and tactics.
While I think the legion would probably win the initial battle without courier intervention, I think long run the NCR would win as legion moves deeper into California and supply lines become less of a struggle for the NCR. Eventually Caesar dies from old age or tumor and Legion loses its figure head, NCR would just elect someone new if Kimball dies. I also think an eventual NCR victory would work just like Caesar said with Hegelian dialectics. They would be forced to adapt as Caesar pushes in until overcoming him and becoming a stronger nation in the progress.
I think it’s fair to question the ability of the Legion to start invading the NCR in California. I do think Lanius and Vulpes are more capable leaders than people say. They just need to weave the new leader into their religion.
This would assume that the Legion would invade California right after the capture of Vegas. Except Caesar wants to make it his new capital, it takes time and consolidation, plus it would change all the supply lines since centered on the capital and therefore closer to the front (even if it means weakening the borders to the East). The founding of the new Rome will also strengthen the Legion with the founding of a state. So even if Caesar dies a structure could define the future of the Legion. But we must also assume that after the capture of Vegas Caesar does not take any measures to heal himself, while he knows the position of a functional auto-doc, in an easily accessible shelter for trained legionnaires or experienced frumentarii or that he does not take advantage of the presence of Disciple in Freeside to find a doctor capable of treating him (like Arcade Ganon who is in Freeside and who can heal Caesar if we sell him to the Legion, so nothing prevents him from being made a slave if his life is at stake) So the possibility of the Legion falling after a victory is not as high as one might think. That said, this is all just speculation. (English is my secondary language I hope to be understandable)
Given when the game was made, The NCR's war in the Mojave was definitely written from the cynical point of view of the US's various wars in the Middle-East in mind... a faraway campaign which matters little to the folks at home, and serves mostly to serve the aims of expansionism and wealthy Californians who want to carve up or exploit the Mojave (like Heck Gunderson) - But a Legion invasion of NCR would pose an existential threat to the Republic, and we'd likely see a _much_ different NCR army than the understaffed and underfunded force from the New Vegas game
@@Mikey-xz4vn Depends on the internal situation in the NCR really I think. Given what we know, I don’t think as many people as you would imagine would take up arms, they would probably try to flee, especially the Brahmin barons and government officials. The Legion would knock on the gates of California and the whole house would fall apart, although the Legion may go with it.
@@monkeymoment6478 Escape to where? Their backs are literally to the ocean, and even if they could, landowners/brahmin barons cant take their most valuable asset (the land itself) with them. Even the most cynical read of US politics has the wealthy drumming up support for war for themselves anyway, be it the aforementioned forays into the Middle East, the widening of the military-industrial complex during the cold war, the Planter class fomenting the secessionist movement prior to the civil war (or if you want to be _extra_ cynical, wealthy northerner factory owners wanting a military solution to secession so as not to lose out on a source of cheap cotton) - Or do you honestly think people are willing to reject what we know to be some of the highest standards of living in the entire Wasteland, hell, the whole world and fold in front of an army of slavers just.. _because_ ?
Great video and very well said! I believe it is the frumentarii that made the difference. Legion soldiers are loyal to a fault and can’t be infiltrated or influenced, while NCR has frumentarii in its main New Vegas base (Mccarran)
The one thing I've always wondered is why exactly did the NCR go into a known desert seeking what exactly, A Famous gambling den? I am shocked they never went north to Oregon and perhaps Washington because I think there's far more stuff up there that's worth fighting for rather than a bunch of sand and a semi functioning city from before the war that's also in the middle of that desert.
I think the Value in New Vegas comes from the Hoover Dam, along with Helios one and the Strip. Hoover Dam and Helios offer energy, the Strip offers finances. It seems like an immensely valuable location for those reasons not to mention it was barely touched by the Great War because of Houses defenses. The Legion is approaching and might destroy the valuable infrastructure which adds to the haste the NCR has to maintain control of the Region.
Yes it’s probably very valuable to them, it’s just not being clearly expressed by the leadership to the public. Hanlon mentions how they drained most of their lakes and water sources so lake Las Vegas and lake mead are also valuable aspects of the Region.
@@nvRanger I still kind of think that house was kind of stupid for protecting Vegas particularly a place that he couldn't really afford to lose his robots because I think if anything, he should've picked the Great Lakes region to protect. it has good farm land a massive industrial base with cities like Chicago and Detroit that already have sprawling industrial factories some of which probably produce his robots, and most importantly gives house easy access to the Mississippi river basin and the Great Lakes That will allow him to move material and people faster and give him greater power projection than anyone else in the wasteland. His strength would be greater than the NCR and the eastern brotherhood combined and likely even stronger than the enclave if they're still around.
I heard some good arguments for the Legion winning but every playthrough I do I can't help but see House winning. He's a 200 year old genius hooked up to a super computer with mathmatical models on everything from the chance of a Brotherhood attack on the Strip to the survivability of the Legion after assassinating Caesar. And some people think he can't figure out how to pay someone to pickpocket a chip from Benny.
House is the one most dependent on the Courier. Otherwise Benny sneaks off with the chip and likley just gets captured like Caesar as always. We can argue left and right on the NCR but despite his bravado, house is one step away from checkmate before the courier comes to him. The issue isn’t that he can find someone else. It’s that he doesn’t have time. Benny has dug an entire secret tunnel out of the strip to specifically escape without house knowing. House is immortal, he’s trying to wait Benny out; the man clearly can’t defeat house without leaving the casino- house thinks he’s got Benny in a stalemate so he’s being patient. But it’s isn’t a stalemate and only Benny knows it.
While the legion are certain to win without the courier intervention, everybody loses in the end. Caesar without help dies due to his brain tumour. Lanius takes over and fucks up the legion. The legionaries not knowing the ways of a governer all goes to fighting and everyone losesz
The lack of clarity post war is true, the Legion could certainly run into issues. Think Vulpes should take over for Caesar tbh, leave Lanius where he is.
@@nvRanger I'm not too certain. The varied origin stories of Lanius being some sort of monster go almost directly against the end-game showdown where you can convince him to fuck off a myriad of ways. For someone who seemingly has no consideration for anything other than bloodshed, he directly laments the logistical situation that hampered his conquest of Denver, and is willing to outright forfeit the 2nd Battle of Hoover Dam just to be given more time to prepare. He may favour the attempt regardless of the consequence, as evident in his chasing of the Enclave Remnants, but I don't necessarily think he's a fool that will destroy the Legion. Let's not forget that Caesar picked Lanius for a reason, and I doubt it's because Lanius is just a loyal dog who can't function after his death. The only true fault that seems evident is that Lanius chases after orders, but isn't necessarily great at choosing them by himself. The Legion may end up directionless for a while, but it's dissolution will not necessarily result of his own action, more so than his inaction. It would imply far more legates than just Lanius, as I really don't see Vulpes or Lucius deciding to split the Legion under Lanius' command. Vulpes to that end is smart enough to know that Caesar bears the proper Wisdom to be a statesman that Lanius cannot provide. But for a psychopath that enjoys burning down villages to make a display, Vulpes' own cruelty and control over a technical separate branch of the Legion's forces makes him a bigger liability than Lanius.
@@nvRanger I think a canon ending to New Vegas is that the legion wins and Caesar dies. Lanius is only one Legate of several, but clearly the most influential as he's pretty much a living god like Caesar was. There would just be civil war between Lanius and Vulpes. I can see a lot of the younger legionnaires and officers following Lanius and mistrusting Vulpes as the manipulative spy he is, and a lot of the older legionnaires and officers following Vulpes for not just being a soldier, but someone who can actually govern.
@@nvRanger Personally think Lucius while having less feats than Vulpes, has the level headedness one would need to run the show. He sees the value that both Lanius and Vulpes bring to the table with their methods, keeping the managerial flexibility at the head of the Legion as they had with Caesar. He seems like the kind of guy to wisely delegate responsibility to the most qualified and not by some other metric.
It's not certain Caesar would die anyway with or without courier intervention. The Legion closest to Caesar know about Vault 34, have radiation gear and are willing to use them when needed, like cursor Lucullus after you've radiated cottonwood cove. They'd likely send frumentarii with advanced radiation suits(Caesar's favor loot) and rad-x, and easily deal with the ghouls.
"What the devs are trying to tell us, is that the NCR is losing" Oh THAT was obvious from my 1st playthrough. It's why I always go House, not for the Mojave but for NCR. My 'hope' is that NCR will have to adapt to such major loss and focus more on its own borders. And as much as I hate the prudish, religious, holier than thou attitude of the Legion, I don't want those in their peaceful territory to lose what they have. House can keep both nations out, and talk to them if they drop their dumb-ass pride. How they adapt is up to them. YesMan could keep them out if you don't blow up the security on arny at the fort. Buuuuuut I don't trust him anymore then I trust The Institute or Think Tank.
I've always found it a weird misconception that the Legion don't use guns when they clearly do A legionary has to prove they can get by without one and has he climbs up the ranks he is granted the privilege to use them, that's literally legion doctrine, veterans from behind peppering the enemy while recruits charge head first and prove themselves worthy to join ranks at the rear It's very telling that legionary recruits can overrun armed NCR soldiers, regardless if it's in a head to head battle or an ambush or raid in the night That's the consequence/ trade off of a militarized war cultured society fighting a old world democracy, Legionaries are trained from birth to fight and enjoy fighting, and to fear nothing while the farm boy the NCR conscripted and gave a week of basic training is sent off to the front lines to battle ruthless and experienced Legionaries who employ fear and terror tactics and is terrified he'll be butchered in his sleep or nailed to a cross if he's taken alive
@@anamericangrizzlybear8315 Yeah i always imaged the whole tactic of the legion was suppressing their enemies with firearms while a horde of machete wielding soldiers close the distance and finish them off. People have this idea of the Legion as the Zulu’s at the battle of Rorke’s Drift, just a bunch of fanatics with spears and swords staring down the barrel of a gun.
Also the mod DUST, which is probably the most accurate potrayal of what happens to the Mojave in 20 years shows the legion completely falling apart, back into many dispersed tribes and the NCR solely ruling whats left of the wastes. 3 out of 4 endings show NCR win in the final battle
you mean the legion loses in 3 out of 4? Because the NCR loses in 3 out of 4. also a mod has no idea what could happen in lore it could be warlords it could be nations or it could be Lanius holds it together who knows
I think that best faction to rule mojave is mr house, if couries helps him of course, he is strong and competent but at the same time he is not radical and gives freedom of speech and self expression to his citiziens, he got big army of strong securitytrons that can do most of the task needed to build a strong country, he got actuall and possible plan for his nation but at the same time he is open topeaceful relations with NCR, he is basically immortal so he can rule forever, Also he and Legion are my favorite factions :)
Shoddycast has a great video that I largely agree with.. Basically he states that the NCR will(would have depending on the show) win the war even if they loose the second battle… I wont give a brief rundown as to why because its a good video and everyone should watch it. But he convinced me that NCR would have absolutely won the war against the legion.
Ive always said this, the ncr where, yes currently corrupt, struggling, and having monumental power issues, can bounce back. End of the day I think the game puts the player between a powerful, no apparent shortcomings faction and a faction with very apparent shortcomings and struggles for the player to help guide
Joshua graham says it best. NOBODY can lead the legion but caesar. When Caesar dies, the legion dies with him: he IS the state, the government, with no organized structure set up to replace him with anyone who could actually manage the enourmous sprawling union of tribes. In this way, Caesars legion is an amazing analogy for fascism. While they initially seem like an unbeatably strong faction, their entirely war focused culture and economy is unsustainable in peacetime. They need constant conquest to uphold their house of cards empire. I find it interesting that a lot of new vegas players unironically believe that they're the best choice for the mojave; they are written VERY explicitly as an analog for a government system that has failed to meet the needs of the people every single time it has been implemented. Great video as usual! (I'm also not disagreeing that they'd win the 2nd battle :))
My question is why Caesar doesn’t have kids? There’s a reason lineage based monarchy was the rage for centuries lol. Caesar’s inevitable death will lead to Vulpes and Lucius inevitably splitting up, right? I’m assuming Lanius would be ok with just being a Legate. But, idk
Joshua Graham is just salty because of what happened to him and what do you mean no organised structure to replace him? The Legion is a pure meritocracy once Caesar dies the next highest ranking individual(Lanius) takes his place and imo Lanius seems capable enough to lead the Legion
@@schnauzerclauser5399 interestingly some of the more stable periods in roman history are marked by rulers who did not have children but instead adopted an heir and cultivated them specifically for that role. in more straightforwardly dynastic periods, you sometimes get rulers like nero who dont turn out so well lol
War never changes Ncr is bring the old world along with his problems as well the intervention from the courier is and feels like a fluke over and over to save the ncr support the ncr is the massage of the fallout narrative from the original to 2 war war never changes The old world has fail why would it succeed this time on Unlike in the other 3 routes but I would say house also feel like a what else can I do(Idk independence) at a late stage
Shoddycast made an old ancient video about the whole "NCR vs. Legion" thing. And I gotta say, his video is well made with rational, logic, math, science, and historical facts than Oxhorn. Since Shoddycast explains that the Legion would win the 2nd battle of hoover Dam but once the Legion tries to move further into NCR territory that where the Legion will lose in the long run. Since the Legion Hierarchy is unstable. Even if Vulpes takes charge, his gonna turn the Legion into cultist rather than what Ceasar wanted. Lanius is worse since his desire is to go to war, which is why he obeys the Legion as long his allowed to fight. It doesn't help that even if Ceasar manages to remove his tumor, old age is gonna get him. Meaning time is the downfall of the legion. Also, most "citizens" of the Legion aren't really Legion citizens. Since there 2 types of people in the Legion. 1. The tribals who are born and raised in the military and worship Ceasar as a God. 2. Random farmers/prospectors who made a deal with the Legion where they pay tribute (basically taxes) in exchange for safety. The tribute (tax) is basically a certain percentage of your supplies. They might even take 90%. So they basically have no loyalty and can betray the Legion if they see the Legion suddenly getting weak and not able to protect them. That's why Vulpes' speech in Nipton is ironic since his own "people" (aka the civilians) are going to turn their backs on the Legion if they become weak which might happen after Ceasar death. Since the only people who are loyal to Ceasar are the Zealot tribal military.
I like to joke that Yes-Man wins but it's possible House wins. Speaking of the Legion it'd be cool to see their fight "Out East" as they say. It sounds they fought the Midwest BOS. I'd like to know more about that.
That's only because the writers are so uncreative they don't understand that Fallout 1 and 2 were about the rebuilding of civilization after the apocalypse
The factions fighting over New Vegas are in stalemate in the Mojave (all of NCR is another matter but they would never commit all of NCR for NV) So the Courier will tip the scale for any of them (incl independent)
@fredrik3880 no it wouldn't. If you don't do any sidequests, camp golf, camp forlorn hope and bitter springs all fall to the legion. Camp mccarran falls to the fiends. The omertas attack the strip which distracts the ncr. This leads to Hoover dam being cut off from reinforcements. That's gg for the ncr in the mojave with no courier intervention
@@mappingshaman5280 the game is no way unclear about the fact that there is a stalemate that has lasted for years. Without the courier this stalemate continues, all the factions need the courier (even a female courier is so needed that the legion will accept it and honor her). The legion will never win without the courier nor will house or ncr.
@fredrik3880 do the yes man ending, don't do anything just do the battle and when the battle begins turn on the ncr emergency radio. They are very clear that camp forlorn hope has fallen. The ending slide also shows without training the misfits camp golf falls and without killing fiend leadership, camp mccarran falls. This isn't speculation based off history in the game, this is objective fact. The Hoover dam objectively gets encircled without the courier doing anything. Militarily that is an absolute disaster.
@fredrik3880 taken from the wiki page for "ncr emergency radio (broadcast)." Yes Forlorn Hope has fallen. Some troops managed to fall back, but the fortification is lost." - If neither Restoring Hope or We Are Legion was completed. Taken from the fiends wikipedia page. "The Fiends overran Camp McCarran during the Second Battle of Hoover Dam. In the anarchic months that followed, the Fiends asserted dominance over Outer Vegas." Motor-Runner remains alive, complete the endgame quest No Gods, No Masters for an Independent New Vegas.
I think the NCR is in worse straits than we even realize. The troops are quite bluntly under equipped. Its not just a supply line short coming - plenty of fire arms and materials make it through on private caravans - gun runner stockpiles are fat, wandering merchants are better stocked than they are armed most of the time. I think they have a supply chain issue at the manufacturing level - they can't equip their army fast enough because they simply do not have the numbers of weapons required to do so coming off assembly lines. More darkly, i suspect they've turned to slave labor in northern California (The Den) to patch this fault. I suspect keeping the rangers (the NCR rangers were initially a militant abolitionist group in FO2) in and around Baja "chasing ghosts" is top brass and politicians keeping those slave operations smooth and under the rug. A deal with the devil they hope will get them dammed rather than damned.
(sorry about spelling errors im getting used to a new keyboard)without player character intervention, the legion is likely to win, but with Caesars health issues and Lanius being a better warrior than politican, i see the NCR sweeping back in for a counter assault once rangers report to the ncr senate and army that "those fuckers are killing each other over there and are too busy to notice us"
Definitely possible, but is Caesar much of a politician? He’s a megalomaniacal dictator w a religion built around him. He simply needs to add lanius to his Religion. The troops already respect and fear the Legate.
@@CirnoFan04 The NCR administration can (dubiously) handle a wide diaspora of cultures and technology levels inside it's borders, the biggest thing Caesar put up with was the nameless tribes of cannibals and degenerates he whipped into a slave nation. There is no contest when it comes to long term survival.
@@kilojuliet2693Correction in the part of "dubiously" the NCR cannot control them. They can't (or they won't) control the organized crime gangs in New Reno, they can't control the slave trade in Vault City, they can't control the Brahmin barons, the NCR can't control anything. Their government is a failed state that half the world in the game tells you is going to collapse. While on the other hand the legion thanks to its authoritarian policies could easily control these cities.
@@ShimmyFrthey won the first battle, legion is so battered they need two years to try again and in 3/4 endings lose. So many fallout youtube channels beat this dead horse to farm views by cherry picking legion victories when the conclusion is pretty clear
imo, probably mr house won the whole of a mojave, thats why ncr fell after one nuked city due to distrust towards government after failed mojave campaign in which people were sent in mass to die just to lose it at the end.
I feel the NCR having artillery (as shown by that captured gun at the fort, and the AA gun on hoover dam) is a lot bigger of a deal than is shown in the game. The legion has nothing to counter even a small battery, so the NCR could shell legion positions at will until the legion are wiped out or forced to leave. The gun runners make guns, explosives, and lots of ammo, supplying the NCR...so they could make shells, too.
Did you even play the final mission? All NCR artillery in the dam explodes before the battle begins, the republic has no other artillery available. And it is the legion that has a howitzer in the fort.
Good video but just one point Losing =/= Overextended. The inner NCR territories are fine. They have one vehicle for every 200 people. A surplus of food for their troops. Their issues are in the frontier due to poor administration and lack of resources to expand not any real existential crisis. It's beauracracy. The NCR could just as easily elect a senator such as Chief O'Hanlon and turn their situation around. But it would arguably be more interesting if they were conquered by the Legion.
@@ShimmyFr When you talk to the NCR cooks in Freeside they explain they have a lot of corn and beans but no meat. They can also feed their squatters in Freeside and can be convinced to dispense food to non citizens. I'm genuinely curious where in the game does it say the NCR experiences a Famine in New Vegas?
@@ShimmyFr Interesting I'll look into that. What about the droughts are there any references on that? I know Hanlon mentions the aquafers being drained but he doesn't say there's any mass drought in NCR.
@@ShimmyFr "The NCR has a Food Shortage? Not yet but our government understands the value of proactive thought. Our studies project an imbalance between consumption and production. Or for a layman such as yourself, not enough food too many mouths to feed. Mass starvation in a decade or so." So It's a problem of population surpassing production. And one they are proactively finding solutions for. Thanks for the source, it's not every day someone actually backs up their counterargument.
NCR is overstretched and the leaders are too ignorant of how vital the Dam actually is. While the Legion has entirely dedicated itself to the Dam at the cost of it's other territories. Imo the NCR would collapse after taking the Dam as they would expand even further and stretch their forces to the breaking point. While the Legion would just burn out even with the Dams resources should they win. The Fallout show simps for China so it's just bad amazon fanfic and shouldnt count
i can now justify taking NV for the NCR even more after the TV show. the NCR no longer needs to lose Vegas to get their egos in check, because they lost one of their hugest cities hahaha
Canon ending is basically NCR winning the final battle in 3 out of 4 endings. Legion got stomped already once there and takes a whole two years to try again. House chooses to have the courier fight along side with the NCR in the final battle as well as yes man. Clearly both have weight the odds in the NCRs favor of winning in the first place.
I just could never see the Legion winning over the NCR to any serious degree. All of the victories we see the Legion achieve are recent to the games timeline and coincide with the decisions made to move troops to the dam. Even so, the victories that the Legion has made were all on outposts and almost never on actual NCR footholds where there weren’t many troops to begin with. This is coupled with the fact that not only are the Legion vastly outgunned, they have vastly lower numbers than the NCR. Both in game and lore evidence tend to make it seem as though while the entire military strength of the Legion was at the Mojave, only a single deployment of the NCR was operating in the same area. Basically, the entirety of the Legion’s military strength is smaller than one deployment of the NCR’s. There’s simply no real feasible way the Legion could make any serious victory over the NCR. Furthermore, even if the Legion did make a serious victory against the NCR there isn’t anyway the forces they lost achieving it wouldn’t be massive. Any victory the Legion would have against the NCR that would put a dent, would only be a temporary one.
@@ShimmyFr It’s physically impossible that the Legion would have many troops. We don’t have exact numbers on the legions troops given by lore or the game but we do know that the population of the US pre-nuclear war in Fallout isn’t to too different from the real life US. This is important because in real life, the land that the Legion controls would be waayyyyy more barren than the land the NCR controls. This would make whatever tribes or population in the wasteland of that region extremely small, likely making the Legion’s population small and its military even smaller. This goes further when you consider that at the first battle of Hoover Dam the military strength of Legion was almost entirely wiped out. We don’t know the exact amount of tribes that the Legion had during the first battle but if their military strength was almost entirely wiped out and they only acquired an addition 14 tribes then there’s no way they have any considerable numbers. We don’t know how many people were in the tribes that the Legion conquered but we have little to no reason to assume they were that big to begin with. Meanwhile the NCR loses 1,000 troops a year and is still operational a number that has put the estimated number of one deployment of troops in the Mojave at 32-35,000. I’d be surprised if the Legion even has 15,000 troops as their total military strength. And this coincides with your first point because while the Legion has won many battles against the NCR if the Legion, it’s losses that the NCR can ultimately afford, hence why they moved troops from outposts to the Dam, even if it’s at the expense of morale for troops.
@@enigma3383 the NCR conscripted a lot of men and women from NCR territory, most of which don't have much military training, compare this to the legions training and you can see why the NCR is struggling in the Mojave.
@@r32guy85 A lot of conscripts the NCR has are from rural areas within their territory and often come into training with prior shooting experience. They train for two weeks and although it makes them less disciplined and have less morale then legion troops the fact that the average NCR trooper is trained and armed with a rifle means the average NCR troop who trained for 2 weeks could probably take out more legion troops who had trained for months to years. What this means is that in any engagement which the Legion fights the NCR and takes losses they won’t be able to replace those troops fast enough, or replace them with troops with equal experience. The Legion’s preference for melee combat is one of its biggest weaknesses and to say otherwise is ludicrous. Comparatively speaking they are way more under-equipped than the average low supply stricken NCR trooper. On paper the Legions troops may seem better for simply just having more training but in actuality the fact that most Legion soldiers use swords and use hockey pads as armor just means that an NCR trooper with a rifle and two weeks training is more capable of taking out more legion troops that legion will take more time to replace than the legion is capable of taking out the NCR trooper that the NCR can replace.
@@r32guy85 They’re struggling in the Mojave because the NCR only actually cares about the Dam, the outposts are there to extend NCR influence to a degree but ultimately they don’t care, it’s why the NCR hasn’t gone on the offensive and it’s why the NCR has been taking troops from outposts to strengthen the Dam. Ultimately where as the Legion has to win many battles against the NCR before they make a dent the NCR only really has to win one and that’s defending the Hoover Dam.
@@ShimmyFr they’re military strength is likely much smaller because they’re total population is much much smaller and have much less to recruit from especially since they exclude women. Meanwhile the NCR is known to have several divisions in their standing military. if they’re following US military doctrine, which would make sense because that’s what they’re trying to restore, then each division is likely numbered at anywhere from 10-15,000 troops and they have many divisions. The NCR has a population likely of over 1,000,000 because their population in Fallout 2 was 700,000 and New Vegas takes place 40 years later. A military size of 100,000 would be 7-10 divisions and only make up 10% or less of their total population which makes sense due to their use of conscription and encouragement of military strength for protection and expansion not to mention they’re confirmed to have the largest military in the wasteland. There’s just more reasons to believe the NCR’s military is vastly larger than the Legion’s.
TBF; The "EVIL FACTION" always wins in every Fallout game wothout PC intervention... The Master, The Enclave, The Enclave again, The Legion, The Institute all have the best chance of victory without Player actions...
that's a fair point. I think New Vegas is a bit more nuanced at the end point than the other fallouts where one faction just wanted to kill all the people pretty much.
The House Always Wins. Take the player out of the game, what result do you have for the Second Battle of Hoover Dam? The NCR is weak, corrupt and everyone has the same feeling they’re just waiting for an inevitable defeat. The Legion would win the battle but lose the war, since Caesar dies either shortly after or before the battle, and would fall on Lanius, who cannot command the same respect and reverence as Caesar. Yesman would remain in Benny’s room, but I doubt Benny would ever actually be able to infiltrate the Lucky 38 to kill Mr. House (and I may be wrong, but I think it’s stated or implied somewhere that he’s digging in the wrong direction and would end up at the Ultra-Luxe). In the end, the NCR would be pushed out, the Legion would eventually fragment, and Yesman would be a non-factor. Mr. House is the only one with any sort of plan and structure in place to thrive. His plans would definitely be delayed without the Platinum Chip being delivered to him, as his securitrons would never be upgraded and the ones at Fortification Hill would never become operational, but he’s the only one I could see still having a strong presence in the Mojave.
@@ShimmyFr Maybe, if Caesar lives long enough to have his Legion storm the Lucky 38 (which would remain unopened without the Courier present, though the Legion would try and probably succeed in blasting the doors open). It’d be a race against the clock, though, since Caesar is straight up in a coma before the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, so even if he wakes up on his own, he won’t have much time to finish off House.
@@ShimmyFr If Lanius is in charge of the Legion, it will fragment almost immediately and will have bigger issues to deal with than House. He’s not charismatic like Caesar and doesn’t have the made up nonsense of being the Son of Mars to legitimize him. With Caesar gone, much of the Legion territory that doesn’t have heavy Legion presence will break away and declare independence, so to speak. Every new ruler in history has had to consolidate his or her power at home before doing anything else. Lanius would be no different.
@@ShimmyFr I never said Lanius wouldn’t take Vegas without Caesar, I said he’d have to get through the tougher and unopened Lucky 38 to get to House, which is a tougher task. Everyone is aware of Lanius being next in line, but not everyone is on board with it. Vulpes fears Lanius taking power because the Legate considers the Frumenarii’s work to be underhanded and cowardly. That, in itself, will cause friction and division within the Legion immediately. Not to mention it outright weakens the Legion to not use espionage against its enemies. My point is not that as soon as Lanius takes over, it’s immediately over for the Legion and it splits up right then and there. My point is that Lanius is far removed from Caesar, the Legion will fragment under his ruthless leadership sooner or later, and Mr. House is better set up for the short and long-term following the battle at Hoover Dam. The only chance the Legion has to take out House is its ability to stay together long enough to accomplish that task. I’m not gonna try to ascertain how long that would actually take, since it’s not too difficult for the Courier to storm the Lucky 38 and kill Mr. House, so I can’t imagine several Legionaries having much more trouble getting the job done, but it would take far more effort to take the Lucky 38 than Vegas itself. And again, Lanius has to consolidate his power following Caesar’s death. This is, as stated previously, something almost every ruler in history has had to do. The only real question here is what happens first? Does the Legion take the Lucky 38 and kill Mr. House, or does it fragment and come apart at the seams? I can’t answer that question definitively, since how long taking the Lucky 38 would take is fairly unknown. I imagine it’s easier than getting to the vault underneath The Fort, but hard to say how much easier. Meanwhile, Mr. House has complete control of the Lucky 38, so it’s not out of the realm of possibility that he could disable the elevator, leaving the Legion stuck at the casino floor if the manage to get in.
@@ihavenomouthandimusttype9729 we dont know if ceasar pushed into california, he may have had troubles with new vegas strip or maybe he was suffering even more from brain tumor after mojave campaign.
@@ihavenomouthandimusttype9729 because the games are canon meaning there was a courier and judging by there not even being a real legion option for honest hearts they were stopped by the courier
Also the mod DUST, which is probably the most accurate potrayal of what happens to the Mojave in 20 years shows the legion completely falling apart, back into many dispersed tribes and the NCR solely ruling whats left of the wastes. 3 out of 4 endings show NCR win in the final battle
Who wins the war?
Vault Tek. Ah dur.
Gotta be Yes man
The war wouldn't be over because of the problems with the senior leadership of the NCR & these problems would allow the legion to take the dam then the legion would waste resources like the NCR trying to keep it, it would be a back & forth for decades.
Mr house, he always wins
The NCR wins due to the production capabilities of industrial societies more guns, more people. If they adopted full WW1 tactics and used IDF, and possibly even trench warfare, they should have no reason to lose other than their lack of knowledge and experience in conventional warfare and tactics.
While I think the legion would probably win the initial battle without courier intervention, I think long run the NCR would win as legion moves deeper into California and supply lines become less of a struggle for the NCR. Eventually Caesar dies from old age or tumor and Legion loses its figure head, NCR would just elect someone new if Kimball dies. I also think an eventual NCR victory would work just like Caesar said with Hegelian dialectics. They would be forced to adapt as Caesar pushes in until overcoming him and becoming a stronger nation in the progress.
I think it’s fair to question the ability of the Legion to start invading the NCR in California.
I do think Lanius and Vulpes are more capable leaders than people say. They just need to weave the new leader into their religion.
This would assume that the Legion would invade California right after the capture of Vegas. Except Caesar wants to make it his new capital, it takes time and consolidation, plus it would change all the supply lines since centered on the capital and therefore closer to the front (even if it means weakening the borders to the East).
The founding of the new Rome will also strengthen the Legion with the founding of a state. So even if Caesar dies a structure could define the future of the Legion.
But we must also assume that after the capture of Vegas Caesar does not take any measures to heal himself, while he knows the position of a functional auto-doc, in an easily accessible shelter for trained legionnaires or experienced frumentarii or that he does not take advantage of the presence of Disciple in Freeside to find a doctor capable of treating him (like Arcade Ganon who is in Freeside and who can heal Caesar if we sell him to the Legion, so nothing prevents him from being made a slave if his life is at stake)
So the possibility of the Legion falling after a victory is not as high as one might think. That said, this is all just speculation.
(English is my secondary language I hope to be understandable)
Given when the game was made, The NCR's war in the Mojave was definitely written from the cynical point of view of the US's various wars in the Middle-East in mind... a faraway campaign which matters little to the folks at home, and serves mostly to serve the aims of expansionism and wealthy Californians who want to carve up or exploit the Mojave (like Heck Gunderson) - But a Legion invasion of NCR would pose an existential threat to the Republic, and we'd likely see a _much_ different NCR army than the understaffed and underfunded force from the New Vegas game
@@Mikey-xz4vn
Depends on the internal situation in the NCR really I think. Given what we know, I don’t think as many people as you would imagine would take up arms, they would probably try to flee, especially the Brahmin barons and government officials. The Legion would knock on the gates of California and the whole house would fall apart, although the Legion may go with it.
@@monkeymoment6478 Escape to where? Their backs are literally to the ocean, and even if they could, landowners/brahmin barons cant take their most valuable asset (the land itself) with them. Even the most cynical read of US politics has the wealthy drumming up support for war for themselves anyway, be it the aforementioned forays into the Middle East, the widening of the military-industrial complex during the cold war, the Planter class fomenting the secessionist movement prior to the civil war (or if you want to be _extra_ cynical, wealthy northerner factory owners wanting a military solution to secession so as not to lose out on a source of cheap cotton) - Or do you honestly think people are willing to reject what we know to be some of the highest standards of living in the entire Wasteland, hell, the whole world and fold in front of an army of slavers just.. _because_ ?
Great video and very well said! I believe it is the frumentarii that made the difference. Legion soldiers are loyal to a fault and can’t be infiltrated or influenced, while NCR has frumentarii in its main New Vegas base (Mccarran)
Thanks for the kind words, and yea I agree. Ulysses and Vulpes alone is responsible for a lot of major moments for the Legion.
The oblivion sound track nice touch also great video ❤
Thanks. Harvest Dawn is one of the best.
The one thing I've always wondered is why exactly did the NCR go into a known desert seeking what exactly, A Famous gambling den? I am shocked they never went north to Oregon and perhaps Washington because I think there's far more stuff up there that's worth fighting for rather than a bunch of sand and a semi functioning city from before the war that's also in the middle of that desert.
I think the Value in New Vegas comes from the Hoover Dam, along with Helios one and the Strip. Hoover Dam and Helios offer energy, the Strip offers finances.
It seems like an immensely valuable location for those reasons not to mention it was barely touched by the Great War because of Houses defenses.
The Legion is approaching and might destroy the valuable infrastructure which adds to the haste the NCR has to maintain control of the Region.
Yes it’s probably very valuable to them, it’s just not being clearly expressed by the leadership to the public.
Hanlon mentions how they drained most of their lakes and water sources so lake Las Vegas and lake mead are also valuable aspects of the Region.
@@nvRanger I still kind of think that house was kind of stupid for protecting Vegas particularly a place that he couldn't really afford to lose his robots because I think if anything, he should've picked the Great Lakes region to protect. it has good farm land a massive industrial base with cities like Chicago and Detroit that already have sprawling industrial factories some of which probably produce his robots, and most importantly gives house easy access to the Mississippi river basin and the Great Lakes That will allow him to move material and people faster and give him greater power projection than anyone else in the wasteland. His strength would be greater than the NCR and the eastern brotherhood combined and likely even stronger than the enclave if they're still around.
I heard some good arguments for the Legion winning but every playthrough I do I can't help but see House winning. He's a 200 year old genius hooked up to a super computer with mathmatical models on everything from the chance of a Brotherhood attack on the Strip to the survivability of the Legion after assassinating Caesar. And some people think he can't figure out how to pay someone to pickpocket a chip from Benny.
House is my most likely candidate for achieving his goals, however his meticulous and delicate plans (did and can) seem to go wrong often.
House is the one most dependent on the Courier. Otherwise Benny sneaks off with the chip and likley just gets captured like Caesar as always.
We can argue left and right on the NCR but despite his bravado, house is one step away from checkmate before the courier comes to him.
The issue isn’t that he can find someone else. It’s that he doesn’t have time. Benny has dug an entire secret tunnel out of the strip to specifically escape without house knowing.
House is immortal, he’s trying to wait Benny out; the man clearly can’t defeat house without leaving the casino- house thinks he’s got Benny in a stalemate so he’s being patient. But it’s isn’t a stalemate and only Benny knows it.
House literally can’t do anything without the courier
@@jdools4744 Ok. Why?
@@jdools4744 Ok. Why?
My boy is getting close to 10k, come on people!!
Great video, love your writing and always learning new shit about NV after almost a decade
Appreciate that, and yea I’m constantly amazed at the depth of this series.
While the legion are certain to win without the courier intervention, everybody loses in the end. Caesar without help dies due to his brain tumour. Lanius takes over and fucks up the legion. The legionaries not knowing the ways of a governer all goes to fighting and everyone losesz
The lack of clarity post war is true, the Legion could certainly run into issues. Think Vulpes should take over for Caesar tbh, leave Lanius where he is.
@@nvRanger I'm not too certain. The varied origin stories of Lanius being some sort of monster go almost directly against the end-game showdown where you can convince him to fuck off a myriad of ways. For someone who seemingly has no consideration for anything other than bloodshed, he directly laments the logistical situation that hampered his conquest of Denver, and is willing to outright forfeit the 2nd Battle of Hoover Dam just to be given more time to prepare. He may favour the attempt regardless of the consequence, as evident in his chasing of the Enclave Remnants, but I don't necessarily think he's a fool that will destroy the Legion. Let's not forget that Caesar picked Lanius for a reason, and I doubt it's because Lanius is just a loyal dog who can't function after his death. The only true fault that seems evident is that Lanius chases after orders, but isn't necessarily great at choosing them by himself. The Legion may end up directionless for a while, but it's dissolution will not necessarily result of his own action, more so than his inaction. It would imply far more legates than just Lanius, as I really don't see Vulpes or Lucius deciding to split the Legion under Lanius' command.
Vulpes to that end is smart enough to know that Caesar bears the proper Wisdom to be a statesman that Lanius cannot provide. But for a psychopath that enjoys burning down villages to make a display, Vulpes' own cruelty and control over a technical separate branch of the Legion's forces makes him a bigger liability than Lanius.
@@nvRanger I think a canon ending to New Vegas is that the legion wins and Caesar dies. Lanius is only one Legate of several, but clearly the most influential as he's pretty much a living god like Caesar was. There would just be civil war between Lanius and Vulpes. I can see a lot of the younger legionnaires and officers following Lanius and mistrusting Vulpes as the manipulative spy he is, and a lot of the older legionnaires and officers following Vulpes for not just being a soldier, but someone who can actually govern.
@@nvRanger Personally think Lucius while having less feats than Vulpes, has the level headedness one would need to run the show. He sees the value that both Lanius and Vulpes bring to the table with their methods, keeping the managerial flexibility at the head of the Legion as they had with Caesar. He seems like the kind of guy to wisely delegate responsibility to the most qualified and not by some other metric.
It's not certain Caesar would die anyway with or without courier intervention. The Legion closest to Caesar know about Vault 34, have radiation gear and are willing to use them when needed, like cursor Lucullus after you've radiated cottonwood cove. They'd likely send frumentarii with advanced radiation suits(Caesar's favor loot) and rad-x, and easily deal with the ghouls.
The House always Wins
Shouldnt you be saying the Enclave always wins?
Need more of these analysis
Thanks, I’ll keep at em
But not on already overtreated subjects like this one.
@Gutvald If you weren’t interested in the topic, why click the video
"What the devs are trying to tell us, is that the NCR is losing"
Oh THAT was obvious from my 1st playthrough. It's why I always go House, not for the Mojave but for NCR. My 'hope' is that NCR will have to adapt to such major loss and focus more on its own borders.
And as much as I hate the prudish, religious, holier than thou attitude of the Legion, I don't want those in their peaceful territory to lose what they have.
House can keep both nations out, and talk to them if they drop their dumb-ass pride. How they adapt is up to them. YesMan could keep them out if you don't blow up the security on arny at the fort. Buuuuuut I don't trust him anymore then I trust The Institute or Think Tank.
Fair points, actually.
Like waking up to a video on Christmas morning
"bUt ThE nCR HavE gUnS!"
And reddit brain cancer
I've always found it a weird misconception that the Legion don't use guns when they clearly do
A legionary has to prove they can get by without one and has he climbs up the ranks he is granted the privilege to use them, that's literally legion doctrine, veterans from behind peppering the enemy while recruits charge head first and prove themselves worthy to join ranks at the rear
It's very telling that legionary recruits can overrun armed NCR soldiers, regardless if it's in a head to head battle or an ambush or raid in the night
That's the consequence/ trade off of a militarized war cultured society fighting a old world democracy, Legionaries are trained from birth to fight and enjoy fighting, and to fear nothing while the farm boy the NCR conscripted and gave a week of basic training is sent off to the front lines to battle ruthless and experienced Legionaries who employ fear and terror tactics and is terrified he'll be butchered in his sleep or nailed to a cross if he's taken alive
@@anamericangrizzlybear8315
Yeah i always imaged the whole tactic of the legion was suppressing their enemies with firearms while a horde of machete wielding soldiers close the distance and finish them off. People have this idea of the Legion as the Zulu’s at the battle of Rorke’s Drift, just a bunch of fanatics with spears and swords staring down the barrel of a gun.
Also the mod DUST, which is probably the most accurate potrayal of what happens to the Mojave in 20 years shows the legion completely falling apart, back into many dispersed tribes and the NCR solely ruling whats left of the wastes. 3 out of 4 endings show NCR win in the final battle
you mean the legion loses in 3 out of 4? Because the NCR loses in 3 out of 4. also a mod has no idea what could happen in lore it could be warlords it could be nations or it could be Lanius holds it together who knows
@@honestgather 3 out of 4 paths have the courier fighting with the NCR against the legion in the final battle.
@@first001Literally you just said it yourself, the courier helps the NCR, don't get so high. And in 2 of those 3 the republic is betrayed
@@first001 in two of those the NCR loses because they are betrayed
I think that best faction to rule mojave is mr house, if couries helps him of course, he is strong and competent but at the same time he is not radical and gives freedom of speech and self expression to his citiziens, he got big army of strong securitytrons that can do most of the task needed to build a strong country, he got actuall and possible plan for his nation but at the same time he is open topeaceful relations with NCR, he is basically immortal so he can rule forever, Also he and Legion are my favorite factions :)
What’s the map website you use?
Shoddycast has a great video that I largely agree with..
Basically he states that the NCR will(would have depending on the show) win the war even if they loose the second battle…
I wont give a brief rundown as to why because its a good video and everyone should watch it. But he convinced me that NCR would have absolutely won the war against the legion.
Studying actual history: 🤢🤮
Studying Fallout history: 😮😊👍
Fallout pulls from a lot of actual history, so maybe you'll learn a bit of both in the process.
Ive always said this, the ncr where, yes currently corrupt, struggling, and having monumental power issues, can bounce back. End of the day I think the game puts the player between a powerful, no apparent shortcomings faction and a faction with very apparent shortcomings and struggles for the player to help guide
It's been corrupt since Fallout 2 which was thirty years prior to this.
maybe stale mate mr house forming a nation acting as a buffer zone between ncr are and legion , ncr goes north for more territory legion 360
The true canonical follow-up called the Fallout TV Series:
huh?
@@nvRanger End of Season 1 teased New Vegas
Yea I saw. I just don’t know what you mean in your original comment.
Joshua graham says it best. NOBODY can lead the legion but caesar. When Caesar dies, the legion dies with him: he IS the state, the government, with no organized structure set up to replace him with anyone who could actually manage the enourmous sprawling union of tribes.
In this way, Caesars legion is an amazing analogy for fascism. While they initially seem like an unbeatably strong faction, their entirely war focused culture and economy is unsustainable in peacetime. They need constant conquest to uphold their house of cards empire.
I find it interesting that a lot of new vegas players unironically believe that they're the best choice for the mojave; they are written VERY explicitly as an analog for a government system that has failed to meet the needs of the people every single time it has been implemented.
Great video as usual! (I'm also not disagreeing that they'd win the 2nd battle :))
My question is why Caesar doesn’t have kids? There’s a reason lineage based monarchy was the rage for centuries lol. Caesar’s inevitable death will lead to Vulpes and Lucius inevitably splitting up, right? I’m assuming Lanius would be ok with just being a Legate. But, idk
Joshua Graham is just salty because of what happened to him and what do you mean no organised structure to replace him? The Legion is a pure meritocracy once Caesar dies the next highest ranking individual(Lanius) takes his place and imo Lanius seems capable enough to lead the Legion
Boone says the legion had a line of succession set up
@@schnauzerclauser5399 interestingly some of the more stable periods in roman history are marked by rulers who did not have children but instead adopted an heir and cultivated them specifically for that role. in more straightforwardly dynastic periods, you sometimes get rulers like nero who dont turn out so well lol
Cope
War never changes Ncr is bring the old world along with his problems as well the intervention from the courier is and feels like a fluke over and over to save the ncr support the ncr is the massage of the fallout narrative from the original to 2 war war never changes
The old world has fail why would it succeed this time on
Unlike in the other 3 routes but I would say house also feel like a what else can I do(Idk independence) at a late stage
Shoddycast made an old ancient video about the whole "NCR vs. Legion" thing. And I gotta say, his video is well made with rational, logic, math, science, and historical facts than Oxhorn.
Since Shoddycast explains that the Legion would win the 2nd battle of hoover Dam but once the Legion tries to move further into NCR territory that where the Legion will lose in the long run.
Since the Legion Hierarchy is unstable. Even if Vulpes takes charge, his gonna turn the Legion into cultist rather than what Ceasar wanted. Lanius is worse since his desire is to go to war, which is why he obeys the Legion as long his allowed to fight.
It doesn't help that even if Ceasar manages to remove his tumor, old age is gonna get him. Meaning time is the downfall of the legion.
Also, most "citizens" of the Legion aren't really Legion citizens. Since there 2 types of people in the Legion.
1. The tribals who are born and raised in the military and worship Ceasar as a God.
2. Random farmers/prospectors who made a deal with the Legion where they pay tribute (basically taxes) in exchange for safety.
The tribute (tax) is basically a certain percentage of your supplies. They might even take 90%. So they basically have no loyalty and can betray the Legion if they see the Legion suddenly getting weak and not able to protect them.
That's why Vulpes' speech in Nipton is ironic since his own "people" (aka the civilians) are going to turn their backs on the Legion if they become weak which might happen after Ceasar death. Since the only people who are loyal to Ceasar are the Zealot tribal military.
I like to joke that Yes-Man wins but it's possible House wins.
Speaking of the Legion it'd be cool to see their fight "Out East" as they say. It sounds they fought the Midwest BOS. I'd like to know more about that.
Yea we see parts of the armor for centurions consists of power armor parts. Must be something there
another goodie. happy that in the fallout show they really emphasized how shattered they've become over the course of the games
thanks, and yea they're barely recognizeable by the time of the show...
That's only because the writers are so uncreative they don't understand that Fallout 1 and 2 were about the rebuilding of civilization after the apocalypse
What mods did you use in this video ?
New Vegas Reloaded, Desert Natural Weathers, and Nova Arizona are some big ones featured.
The factions fighting over New Vegas are in stalemate in the Mojave (all of NCR is another matter but they would never commit all of NCR for NV)
So the Courier will tip the scale for any of them (incl independent)
@@ShimmyFr 4 years of stalemate would be followed by more years of stalemate without the courier
@fredrik3880 no it wouldn't. If you don't do any sidequests, camp golf, camp forlorn hope and bitter springs all fall to the legion. Camp mccarran falls to the fiends. The omertas attack the strip which distracts the ncr. This leads to Hoover dam being cut off from reinforcements. That's gg for the ncr in the mojave with no courier intervention
@@mappingshaman5280 the game is no way unclear about the fact that there is a stalemate that has lasted for years. Without the courier this stalemate continues, all the factions need the courier (even a female courier is so needed that the legion will accept it and honor her). The legion will never win without the courier nor will house or ncr.
@fredrik3880 do the yes man ending, don't do anything just do the battle and when the battle begins turn on the ncr emergency radio. They are very clear that camp forlorn hope has fallen. The ending slide also shows without training the misfits camp golf falls and without killing fiend leadership, camp mccarran falls. This isn't speculation based off history in the game, this is objective fact. The Hoover dam objectively gets encircled without the courier doing anything. Militarily that is an absolute disaster.
@fredrik3880 taken from the wiki page for "ncr emergency radio (broadcast)."
Yes Forlorn Hope has fallen. Some troops managed to fall back, but the fortification is lost." - If neither Restoring Hope or We Are Legion was completed.
Taken from the fiends wikipedia page.
"The Fiends overran Camp McCarran during the Second Battle of Hoover Dam. In the anarchic months that followed, the Fiends asserted dominance over Outer Vegas."
Motor-Runner remains alive, complete the endgame quest No Gods, No Masters for an Independent New Vegas.
I think the NCR is in worse straits than we even realize. The troops are quite bluntly under equipped. Its not just a supply line short coming - plenty of fire arms and materials make it through on private caravans - gun runner stockpiles are fat, wandering merchants are better stocked than they are armed most of the time.
I think they have a supply chain issue at the manufacturing level - they can't equip their army fast enough because they simply do not have the numbers of weapons required to do so coming off assembly lines. More darkly, i suspect they've turned to slave labor in northern California (The Den) to patch this fault. I suspect keeping the rangers (the NCR rangers were initially a militant abolitionist group in FO2) in and around Baja "chasing ghosts" is top brass and politicians keeping those slave operations smooth and under the rug. A deal with the devil they hope will get them dammed rather than damned.
The courier for sure won it
No one stops the mail man
The Legion dies with Ceasar
I don’t think it’s so clear cut
(sorry about spelling errors im getting used to a new keyboard)without player character intervention, the legion is likely to win, but with Caesars health issues and Lanius being a better warrior than politican, i see the NCR sweeping back in for a counter assault once rangers report to the ncr senate and army that "those fuckers are killing each other over there and are too busy to notice us"
Definitely possible, but is Caesar much of a politician?
He’s a megalomaniacal dictator w a religion built around him. He simply needs to add lanius to his Religion. The troops already respect and fear the Legate.
@@nvRanger but in that we haven’t seen him do so yet only leaves one wondering
Yea it’s one of the questions the game gives us to ponder
without courier intervention - legion
I’m thinkin so
The answer is always NCR. It's like asking who would win between the entire US military and some football team.
Tell that to your Nelson friends, Or the ones in Forlon Hope, or the ones in Searchlight... Or wait... THEY ARE FUCKING DEAD 😭
@@CirnoFan04 The NCR administration can (dubiously) handle a wide diaspora of cultures and technology levels inside it's borders, the biggest thing Caesar put up with was the nameless tribes of cannibals and degenerates he whipped into a slave nation. There is no contest when it comes to long term survival.
@@kilojuliet2693Correction in the part of "dubiously" the NCR cannot control them. They can't (or they won't) control the organized crime gangs in New Reno, they can't control the slave trade in Vault City, they can't control the Brahmin barons, the NCR can't control anything. Their government is a failed state that half the world in the game tells you is going to collapse.
While on the other hand the legion thanks to its authoritarian policies could easily control these cities.
the ncr tries to copy the US military but it fails so badly it just looks like a WW1 era outfit.
@@ShimmyFrthey won the first battle, legion is so battered they need two years to try again and in 3/4 endings lose. So many fallout youtube channels beat this dead horse to farm views by cherry picking legion victories when the conclusion is pretty clear
Ave
RETRIBUTION
imo, probably mr house won the whole of a mojave, thats why ncr fell after one nuked city due to distrust towards government after failed mojave campaign in which people were sent in mass to die just to lose it at the end.
The enclave ending for new Vegas is the true ending 😂
which ending is that?
I feel the NCR having artillery (as shown by that captured gun at the fort, and the AA gun on hoover dam) is a lot bigger of a deal than is shown in the game. The legion has nothing to counter even a small battery, so the NCR could shell legion positions at will until the legion are wiped out or forced to leave. The gun runners make guns, explosives, and lots of ammo, supplying the NCR...so they could make shells, too.
Did you even play the final mission? All NCR artillery in the dam explodes before the battle begins, the republic has no other artillery available. And it is the legion that has a howitzer in the fort.
Legion needs a ton of plot armor to make this a never ending debate, so they nerfed the NCR so hard
Good video but just one point Losing =/= Overextended. The inner NCR territories are fine. They have one vehicle for every 200 people. A surplus of food for their troops. Their issues are in the frontier due to poor administration and lack of resources to expand not any real existential crisis. It's beauracracy. The NCR could just as easily elect a senator such as Chief O'Hanlon and turn their situation around. But it would arguably be more interesting if they were conquered by the Legion.
Yea I definitely don’t think the Legion is going to take down the NCR in California anytime soon based on what we know.
Well… pre tv show at least.
@@ShimmyFr When you talk to the NCR cooks in Freeside they explain they have a lot of corn and beans but no meat. They can also feed their squatters in Freeside and can be convinced to dispense food to non citizens. I'm genuinely curious where in the game does it say the NCR experiences a Famine in New Vegas?
@@ShimmyFr Interesting I'll look into that. What about the droughts are there any references on that? I know Hanlon mentions the aquafers being drained but he doesn't say there's any mass drought in NCR.
@@ShimmyFr "The NCR has a Food Shortage? Not yet but our government understands the value of proactive thought. Our studies project an imbalance between consumption and production. Or for a layman such as yourself, not enough food too many mouths to feed. Mass starvation in a decade or so."
So It's a problem of population surpassing production. And one they are proactively finding solutions for. Thanks for the source, it's not every day someone actually backs up their counterargument.
Cant wait to see how the fallout show will butcher new vegas
I’m cautiously awaiting 😬
legion is cooked 😔
@@joelembiidburner1047cooked and locked
Watch Benny be in charge
The bar is so low when it comes to Bethesda that I thought the show was surprisingly good. It could have been so much worse.
NCR is overstretched and the leaders are too ignorant of how vital the Dam actually is. While the Legion has entirely dedicated itself to the Dam at the cost of it's other territories. Imo the NCR would collapse after taking the Dam as they would expand even further and stretch their forces to the breaking point. While the Legion would just burn out even with the Dams resources should they win. The Fallout show simps for China so it's just bad amazon fanfic and shouldnt count
Mods will always have mods
i can now justify taking NV for the NCR even more after the TV show. the NCR no longer needs to lose Vegas to get their egos in check, because they lost one of their hugest cities hahaha
Canon ending is basically NCR winning the final battle in 3 out of 4 endings. Legion got stomped already once there and takes a whole two years to try again. House chooses to have the courier fight along side with the NCR in the final battle as well as yes man. Clearly both have weight the odds in the NCRs favor of winning in the first place.
NCR would lose the Mojave but stop the Legion as it drove deeper into NCR territory
Yea I don’t think the Legion can take California from the NCR at the point of New Vegas
Don’t worry I’m extremely pro legion
lol
The house always wins
I just could never see the Legion winning over the NCR to any serious degree. All of the victories we see the Legion achieve are recent to the games timeline and coincide with the decisions made to move troops to the dam. Even so, the victories that the Legion has made were all on outposts and almost never on actual NCR footholds where there weren’t many troops to begin with. This is coupled with the fact that not only are the Legion vastly outgunned, they have vastly lower numbers than the NCR. Both in game and lore evidence tend to make it seem as though while the entire military strength of the Legion was at the Mojave, only a single deployment of the NCR was operating in the same area. Basically, the entirety of the Legion’s military strength is smaller than one deployment of the NCR’s. There’s simply no real feasible way the Legion could make any serious victory over the NCR. Furthermore, even if the Legion did make a serious victory against the NCR there isn’t anyway the forces they lost achieving it wouldn’t be massive. Any victory the Legion would have against the NCR that would put a dent, would only be a temporary one.
@@ShimmyFr It’s physically impossible that the Legion would have many troops. We don’t have exact numbers on the legions troops given by lore or the game but we do know that the population of the US pre-nuclear war in Fallout isn’t to too different from the real life US. This is important because in real life, the land that the Legion controls would be waayyyyy more barren than the land the NCR controls. This would make whatever tribes or population in the wasteland of that region extremely small, likely making the Legion’s population small and its military even smaller. This goes further when you consider that at the first battle of Hoover Dam the military strength of Legion was almost entirely wiped out. We don’t know the exact amount of tribes that the Legion had during the first battle but if their military strength was almost entirely wiped out and they only acquired an addition 14 tribes then there’s no way they have any considerable numbers. We don’t know how many people were in the tribes that the Legion conquered but we have little to no reason to assume they were that big to begin with. Meanwhile the NCR loses 1,000 troops a year and is still operational a number that has put the estimated number of one deployment of troops in the Mojave at 32-35,000. I’d be surprised if the Legion even has 15,000 troops as their total military strength. And this coincides with your first point because while the Legion has won many battles against the NCR if the Legion, it’s losses that the NCR can ultimately afford, hence why they moved troops from outposts to the Dam, even if it’s at the expense of morale for troops.
@@enigma3383 the NCR conscripted a lot of men and women from NCR territory, most of which don't have much military training, compare this to the legions training and you can see why the NCR is struggling in the Mojave.
@@r32guy85 A lot of conscripts the NCR has are from rural areas within their territory and often come into training with prior shooting experience. They train for two weeks and although it makes them less disciplined and have less morale then legion troops the fact that the average NCR trooper is trained and armed with a rifle means the average NCR troop who trained for 2 weeks could probably take out more legion troops who had trained for months to years. What this means is that in any engagement which the Legion fights the NCR and takes losses they won’t be able to replace those troops fast enough, or replace them with troops with equal experience. The Legion’s preference for melee combat is one of its biggest weaknesses and to say otherwise is ludicrous. Comparatively speaking they are way more under-equipped than the average low supply stricken NCR trooper. On paper the Legions troops may seem better for simply just having more training but in actuality the fact that most Legion soldiers use swords and use hockey pads as armor just means that an NCR trooper with a rifle and two weeks training is more capable of taking out more legion troops that legion will take more time to replace than the legion is capable of taking out the NCR trooper that the NCR can replace.
@@r32guy85 They’re struggling in the Mojave because the NCR only actually cares about the Dam, the outposts are there to extend NCR influence to a degree but ultimately they don’t care, it’s why the NCR hasn’t gone on the offensive and it’s why the NCR has been taking troops from outposts to strengthen the Dam. Ultimately where as the Legion has to win many battles against the NCR before they make a dent the NCR only really has to win one and that’s defending the Hoover Dam.
@@ShimmyFr they’re military strength is likely much smaller because they’re total population is much much smaller and have much less to recruit from especially since they exclude women. Meanwhile the NCR is known to have several divisions in their standing military. if they’re following US military doctrine, which would make sense because that’s what they’re trying to restore, then each division is likely numbered at anywhere from 10-15,000 troops and they have many divisions. The NCR has a population likely of over 1,000,000 because their population in Fallout 2 was 700,000 and New Vegas takes place 40 years later. A military size of 100,000 would be 7-10 divisions and only make up 10% or less of their total population which makes sense due to their use of conscription and encouragement of military strength for protection and expansion not to mention they’re confirmed to have the largest military in the wasteland. There’s just more reasons to believe the NCR’s military is vastly larger than the Legion’s.
TBF; The "EVIL FACTION" always wins in every Fallout game wothout PC intervention... The Master, The Enclave, The Enclave again, The Legion, The Institute all have the best chance of victory without Player actions...
that's a fair point. I think New Vegas is a bit more nuanced at the end point than the other fallouts where one faction just wanted to kill all the people pretty much.
The House Always Wins. Take the player out of the game, what result do you have for the Second Battle of Hoover Dam? The NCR is weak, corrupt and everyone has the same feeling they’re just waiting for an inevitable defeat. The Legion would win the battle but lose the war, since Caesar dies either shortly after or before the battle, and would fall on Lanius, who cannot command the same respect and reverence as Caesar. Yesman would remain in Benny’s room, but I doubt Benny would ever actually be able to infiltrate the Lucky 38 to kill Mr. House (and I may be wrong, but I think it’s stated or implied somewhere that he’s digging in the wrong direction and would end up at the Ultra-Luxe). In the end, the NCR would be pushed out, the Legion would eventually fragment, and Yesman would be a non-factor. Mr. House is the only one with any sort of plan and structure in place to thrive. His plans would definitely be delayed without the Platinum Chip being delivered to him, as his securitrons would never be upgraded and the ones at Fortification Hill would never become operational, but he’s the only one I could see still having a strong presence in the Mojave.
@@ShimmyFr Maybe, if Caesar lives long enough to have his Legion storm the Lucky 38 (which would remain unopened without the Courier present, though the Legion would try and probably succeed in blasting the doors open). It’d be a race against the clock, though, since Caesar is straight up in a coma before the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, so even if he wakes up on his own, he won’t have much time to finish off House.
@@ShimmyFr If Lanius is in charge of the Legion, it will fragment almost immediately and will have bigger issues to deal with than House. He’s not charismatic like Caesar and doesn’t have the made up nonsense of being the Son of Mars to legitimize him. With Caesar gone, much of the Legion territory that doesn’t have heavy Legion presence will break away and declare independence, so to speak. Every new ruler in history has had to consolidate his or her power at home before doing anything else. Lanius would be no different.
@@ShimmyFr I never said Lanius wouldn’t take Vegas without Caesar, I said he’d have to get through the tougher and unopened Lucky 38 to get to House, which is a tougher task. Everyone is aware of Lanius being next in line, but not everyone is on board with it. Vulpes fears Lanius taking power because the Legate considers the Frumenarii’s work to be underhanded and cowardly. That, in itself, will cause friction and division within the Legion immediately. Not to mention it outright weakens the Legion to not use espionage against its enemies. My point is not that as soon as Lanius takes over, it’s immediately over for the Legion and it splits up right then and there. My point is that Lanius is far removed from Caesar, the Legion will fragment under his ruthless leadership sooner or later, and Mr. House is better set up for the short and long-term following the battle at Hoover Dam. The only chance the Legion has to take out House is its ability to stay together long enough to accomplish that task. I’m not gonna try to ascertain how long that would actually take, since it’s not too difficult for the Courier to storm the Lucky 38 and kill Mr. House, so I can’t imagine several Legionaries having much more trouble getting the job done, but it would take far more effort to take the Lucky 38 than Vegas itself. And again, Lanius has to consolidate his power following Caesar’s death. This is, as stated previously, something almost every ruler in history has had to do. The only real question here is what happens first? Does the Legion take the Lucky 38 and kill Mr. House, or does it fragment and come apart at the seams? I can’t answer that question definitively, since how long taking the Lucky 38 would take is fairly unknown. I imagine it’s easier than getting to the vault underneath The Fort, but hard to say how much easier. Meanwhile, Mr. House has complete control of the Lucky 38, so it’s not out of the realm of possibility that he could disable the elevator, leaving the Legion stuck at the casino floor if the manage to get in.
Spoiler alert! It’s me. I win
Beating a dead horse this topic has been covered so much by so many different youtubers at this point.
True but this guy understands the game and lore better than any other lore channel
You're just mad because you don't like the conclusion he drew at the end of the video.
The NCR was screwed long before the series decided someone nuked them. Without the courier choosing any other side, the legion would always win.
Um. K. Why isn't the Legion in California then?
@@ihavenomouthandimusttype9729 we dont know if ceasar pushed into california, he may have had troubles with new vegas strip or maybe he was suffering even more from brain tumor after mojave campaign.
@@ihavenomouthandimusttype9729 They died in success
@@ihavenomouthandimusttype9729 because the games are canon meaning there was a courier and judging by there not even being a real legion option for honest hearts they were stopped by the courier
Also the mod DUST, which is probably the most accurate potrayal of what happens to the Mojave in 20 years shows the legion completely falling apart, back into many dispersed tribes and the NCR solely ruling whats left of the wastes. 3 out of 4 endings show NCR win in the final battle
Mods have no bearing on canon whatsoever
Ah yes let’s take mods into consideration for timeline continuity…surely that’s a direct contradiction in what OP here is yapping about.