Why Do We have 12-Speed Drivetrains? | The Explainer
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- Опубликовано: 15 июл 2020
- It seems that anytime a drivetrain manufacteurer adds yet another cog to the cassette, the mountain bike community as a whole gives a harmonious sigh. With such a collective distaste for change amongst consumers , why do companies bring new drivetrains to market? Join Mike Levy as he explains why we have 12-speed drivetrains.
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Actually the fact that 10*42=420 or 10*50=500 is just a coincidence in this case, and it only works if the smallest cog has exactly 10 teeth. You don't calculate the range by multiplying, but by dividing. So 42/10= 4.20 which is 420%. We know this is true because if you instead had an 11-tooth cog it would be not be 11*42= 462% range, because that would mean more range than a smaller 10-tooth cog. It's actually 42/11 which would be a 381% range.
lmao
So true
I thought this while I watched. "You mean divide not multiply."
Almost commented the same thing :)
Lol i just read this after i posted the exact same thing lmao
When I was a teen, I had a 12 speed - which meant 2 gears in the front and 6 in the back!
The good old days haha
I had a 10 speed. 2 in front and 5 in back. Talk about jumps between gears.
My grandfather had an mtb with 12 speed too, the shifters were really hard too.
@@azopene I had a 2x5 mtb & removed front derailleur. That 1x5 was a ton of fun, easy to work on, simple rig.
I had 7 in back and 3 in back
Next on the explainer Mike explains why the grim donut is never coming
They actually explained why on the podcast. Basically they want to film it well and cov messed that up
I double-click through most of the gears on my 11/12 speed bikes; Next one is going to be 9-speed 11-50t to save weight and money for the same range.
Box 9 does this already, and yes it's everything you need!
Same
I do a lot at times too (double or triple click), but there are times when the gaps from say 18-21, 24-28, etc...really anything above 15% in the middle of the cassette definitely take me out of a rhythm when accelerating or keeping a steady pace. I end up shifting too much between the two gears because I can't find the right cadence. I imagine if I spent more time on steady climbs or steady descents I'd be annoyed at the 17+% gaps at either end of the cassette as well.
I think more gears 14 and electronic shifting where you can program 2-3 gear shifts at a time will resolve this. In the meantime I'd rather be annoyed at having to try and find the right gear, than be annoyed that I can't find the gear at all because it's not there.
I used to make the same, never on the "right" gear. Then I bought a 10 speed cassette 11-50t, which works really good with sram xx1 11s. The first gear is much more away from the spokes, and a single shifter makes a big diference .
Alia Nexis now that you mention it. I do find myself double clicking a lot.
Switched a 3x8 to a 1 x 12 on my hardtail, dropped some weight, couldn't be happier with the change.
What all did you change? I’m planning upgrade my 8 speed acera to a 11 speed deore xt
Kaushik Pulagara the main thing was switching to a 1 x12 instead of a 3 by
Changed bottom bracket, chain, rear derailleur, shifter, cables. Removed gripshifts, front derailleur and cables. Also replaced grips
I switched from a 1x9 on my Fuji hardtail to the Box2 1x11 and I'm really digging it. They were blowing them out on eBay this summer for $150 so I couldn't resist.
Why can't we do 3 in the front 12 in the back?
The biggest bummer about 12 speed is we can no longer use the phrase,
"But ours goes to 11."
it hurts me to know that most wont get that
Spinal Tap😃😃🤙
Then you see box “9 is fine” dont blame em coming from a freerider
Yep I just got a box 9 speed drive train and its great for me, but I'm used to single speed dj bikes and bmx so any amount of gears are a lot
I'm over here just waiting on Box to get the Box Two Prime 9 x wide groupset with multi shift back in stock. Who really wants to even shift the much!?
Box Prime 9 is seriously a game changer going back to less gears / have this on my trail and DH bikes for about a year now / same range as Sram and Shimano and less time going shift crazy , plus never have it going out of adjustments even after hitting the hanger / lives my Sram Eagle but Box makes more sense and i will always go with now after using both
@@markvorgic5481 What eagle did u use?
Jason W Does it matter which hub for Box?
Can't see why a 10-50 9 speed would be a problem tbh
If you are a XC and Enduro rider you will understand why
Agree. I’d love a 6 speed 10-50.
Why not just make it simple and have a 2 speed drive train? 10 tooth for down hill and 50 tooth for climbing...
R O S E i race enduro on 11-42 10spd m8. You don’t need half this crap if you don’t want it
Brandon Lee my friends use their 42 going uphill on a very steep uphill maybe you never see a steep uphill or a steep switchback even if you race enduro it depends on your country because in our country we have lots of steep uphill and some of them are not even rideable in bikes
His math to find the range % is incorrect. It's 42/10 = 4.2 aka 420% or 50/10 is 500%. just multiplying it seems to work, But if you had a 11t gear, it would definitely not work to multiply.
Expecting any understanding of how bikes actually work from bike journalists is always going to be a bit of a stretch.
I came to comment the same thing, lol.
It's Levy.
Yup, 5 times is 500%. 50 times is 5000%. Don’t want a 500 tooth large cog unless I’m going for that 50 degree hill or trying to outbling Mike. ruclips.net/video/c7a8XjeDRGg/видео.html this is only 38% steep
What are you talking about? The range has nothing to do with the amount of gears. It's the range between the smallest cog and the biggest cog. It could be three gears and it would not matter, the range of a 10/50 cassette would still be 500%
Once the rear cassette reaches 26 inches in diameter. Those 26 ain't dead posters won't look so bad anymore :)
We climb hills in the lowest 3 gears and then once we crest the hill we up-shift 5 gears as fast as we can. I don't see the need for 12 gears. 10-52 range with a 9-10 speed would be fine.
Well thats if you never ride flat terrain, XC has more need for those middle gears to adapt with flatter terrain for exemple
Flat terrain
@@louismarieallyndree290 Not even just flat terrain long steady inclines/declines of different grades. I also punch through 2-4 gears sometimes, but other times can't quite find the right gear in between two others. So I guess 12-speed is just right? 🤷♂️
If you dont see the need then you think everyone else rides the same as you. In which case there is no need for all these different bikes. There shoukd just be the one you ride. (Ment in a light harted fun way. Not being angry at you m8)
Because an 11pack of beer also sounds weird.
SOO YOUR SAYING MY 11 SPEED IS WEIRDD!?!?!!?!
@@kennethchua4958 yes its OCD inducing
LOL "I know a guy..."
...who knows the guy
More cogs means smaller jumps between gears and on my road bike it makes fine tuning the gearing much easier. With 2X drive trains there are several overlaps in gear ratio so what seems like double the gears really is not. For simplicity and functionality 1 X 12 is great. The only real issue with 1 X, and I hardly every hear it mentioned, is that there is huge chain line problem. You would never think of riding a 2X in the Big ring, big cog but that is essentially what you are doing with a 1X if you use the largest cog. Granted, a single ring can be placed more centrally compared to where a 2X rings would be, but it is still a big stretch on chain line. This results in much faster wear of the entire drive train system.
The increased chain line angle was the reason I dumped 12 speed. My shorter bottom bracket to rear axle was a huge headache with adjusting the shifting. Switched to Box 9 works great 90% of the time. There are some climbs where it seems like it falls in between gears but that is seldom and I don't remember if I had the same issue with my 12 speed. I do remember messing with the cable barrel as I worked through the furthest range to get it to not make noise or jump gears on heavy strain.
I think that sram and shimano should start working on internal gear boxes like the pinion gear box. That seems like the future. As always, thanks for the great free content !
4:17
If im not mistaken its 50/10 makes a quotient of 5 and then multiply it by hundred to make 500%. Levy is on all kinds of drugs
Thank you for being the token nerd and commenting this before I did 😂
Oh I just read this after my own comment saying the same thing
I'm glad I had enough sense to check if anyone else said it first. Yeah. This thing.
12 speed explained: bike has a 1x12 transmission. Thank you, thats the video.
What is this witchcraft?
I have a 12spd SLX on my Surly ICT, and it’s actually pretty great! I prefer it to the 11spd I have in my trail bike for the riding I am doing, which is often high elevation steep climbing!
Narrower chain and increased chain line variance between big and small cog = more chain wear= less chain life= more cost. Same goes for the rear cassette- more cogs = thinner material= easier to wear down= more cost. It's amazing how the marketing guys/con artists in the industry told us a few years ago that we needed more gears but "don't cross chain" as it wears out the chain faster. Now with a single chain ring and a wider cassette are we not cross chaining even more? Progress is great but it's no wonder the consumer gets cynical when there is product development for the sake of making a product change to that some consumers are hooked in to that "upgrade" i.e buy more product.
Thanks for this vid I’ve been trying to learn more about drivetrains but never found a good video on it
Just made the jump from 10 speed Saint to 12 speed XT. I agree that it’s about cadence. I’ve always liked to spin and with 10 speed I had to grind which never really suited my style. Loving 12 speed.
hate 12 i like big changes and when i rode my first 12 it really pissed me of cos i was forever clicking and could never find the right gear straight away, 12 sucks
Back in 2015 my dad had and 11 speed XTR cassette that was 10-42t but he got a OneUp extension that let him have a 50 tooth cog. Plus his bike had a single chain ring in the front.
I bought a sram12 speed setup near new second hand but sold it and bought a new 11 speed Shimano 5100 10-51 for less than the cost to buy a 12 speed cassette, I now have the range of a 12 albeit a little bit more of a step in places and the peace of mind that I can replace parts without taking on a new bank loan.
I came here to understand more and I'm still wondering what % range a regular 3x7 bike has.
When I was a kid, I had a bike with a 3 speed F&S-hub. Those F&S-hubs with backpedal-brake were so common in germany in the 80's and 90's that they were considered standard for most non-sportive bikes. A whole generation grew up with them. OK for town commuting and recreational family tours and they were so reliable, they could run for decades without any service. Then around '90 I got a sportier (but not yet racebike) 6-speed bike (Sachs-Huret, indexed Clickbox) which I still own today. That was a huge jump. The total range grew while the steps got smaller. Further on I recognized that I would like one or two gears below for hillier sections and 1 or 2 gears above for the speedy strips. Of cause that was not possible without changing the whole drivetrain. The only thing possible I did, changing the freehub sprocket package to one with a bigger big sprocket. This spring I was willing to overhaul my old bike. Because the whole drivetrain was so used up after 30 years I had to renew it all and I took the chance to change it from 1X6 to 2X6. I got myself some NOS and used parts fitting to the age of the bike (2x crankset, front derailieur and a shifter with cable. New 6x freehub and chain.Now I am happy with the range the new setup provides, but unhappy with that "gap" in shifting when you have to switch the front, because it never fits and you have to switch the other shifter opposite to find the matching gear. Knowing that this was state of the art 30years ago I will keep this bike like it is now, but if I would buy a new one today, I would go with 1X10 to 1X12 of cause, depending on the price.
Great video! Love my XO1 ! Ben running it on my commencal meta with no chain guide and have never dropped a chain in 2 years!
Pretty stoked on the Advent X 11-48 10sp. Also looked at the Box 9sp. 12sp works great out of the box but after a few rides and bashes, you're going to tune that derailleur for the rest of your life. The benefits don't outweigh the headaches IMO. Loving the low-tech setup on my new Transition.
I personally love the 12 speeds. they just work so well and these together with a narrow/wide chainring up front and a clutch in the rear have together made it so that I haven't dropped a chain for as long as I have had this bike which is almost 1.5 years now.
the clutter on the handlebars deal isn't a positive I'm behind tho, I never had a problem with my 9x3 speed setup clutter wise. I knew where stuff were and I never had a problem with it.
E13’s 9-46 works really well, I guarantee sram and shimoney are going to follow.
Levy is gonna be screwed because he won’t be able to multiply the small number by the big number to get the correct range.
Facts
3x9 is all I need with an 11-36 on the rear and 22-32-44 up front, I can go faster than guys with 1x drivetrain and also climb easier when it gets steep
I have the same drtvetrain and the same opinion.
*drivetrain
Yes, but it's not all a bed of roses: the front derailleur tends to go out of trim, relatively minimal cross-chaining also causes chain rubbing against the front mech (unlike in a 1x), and there is a fair amount of ratio repetition.
I have the same setup, and there are really only 15 ratios that are "different" by at least 10% from each other. Using all 15 means switching front-and-rear together repeatedly, which is sometimes not easy; the best I could come up with is a sequence of 14: 44/11, 13, 15, 17 ; 32/15, 17, 20, 24, 27, 30 ; 22/24, 27, 30, 34
On the other hand, this means a rather nice 626% ratio range (or - as others have pointed out - 526%; a fixie has a 0% ratio range, not 100%), which is a lot more than a 1 x 12 can or probably ever will do (62-tooth sprocket, anyone?). Funnily enough, if one takes a typical "compact" road bike, with 50/34 rings and 11-28 cassette, that's less than a 1 x 12 range (~400 - or rather, 300%), but 1x drivetrains are not at all popular for road bikes.
@dlevi67 i agree, but the trim problem is easily solved by trimming it and put a drop of super glue on the thread of the trim screws, and yes 3x9 adds complexity to making gear changes without too much cross chain but is not that hard to get used to it
@@Eddiethehatebreeder I've been using a 3 x 9 for 20 years... (and the superglue solves one problem, but not that of cable stretch!). All I'm saying is that it is not necessarily a perfect solution, and my next bike will probably be a 1x (if I can get the ratios I want...)
4:17 Hope he's joking with the calculation of range multiplying smallest and largest cog xDD
most people talking bout 12 speed and then there is me and my friend wanting rotor 1x13 drivetrain XD
Aside from being able to make 1x on some frame configurations 1x is marketing. I ride all of them and they shift slower. You've just lost the spoke spacing you could've had. And come to think of it even on a plus hardtail you'd what gain 3 mm of a q factor. What happened to cross chaining all of a sudden it's not an angle of cross chaining, I'm lookin' at it and I can feel it. Less for the same pruce marketing imho
No, it's not marketing. I've been ditching FDs since the 80s, and every time I try some new whiz bang FD, it's garbage and ends up in to dono bin. 2x and 3x give repetitive ratios that waste space and effort. Also going up 1, down 3 isn't faster than just shifting one rear cog.
I went back and tried my brothers 3x7 drive train after riding a 1x12 for a while, and man that 3x7 set up is garbage. At least half the gears are repeats and you are always in the wrong front gear.
15 speed cassettes please - oh f it - let's go 20. I want more rotational mass!
Piers B. Cassette rotational mass is insignificant. Diameter is so small compared to a 29” wheel.
@@mrsmartypants_1 if we up the no. of gears being MTBers we will probably ask for more range/have more range forced down our throats so it will get even bigger and at some point it is going to add up to bad rotational mass. besides, it's already screwing our suspension up.
Can't remember the last time I shifted just one gear to optimise cadence. 9speed was plenty. Range is the important thing.
Microshift drivetrains have fewer speeds relative to other drivetrains with the same range.
Acolyte 8-speed 12-46t: 383% gear range
Advent 9-speed 11-46t: 418% gear range
Advent X 10-speed 11-48t: 436% gear range
Ran 1x9 guerrilla style on my old 26" bike. That was just fine... Now my new 29" full suspension has 1x12 but honestly I couldn't care less.
I still have a 3x9 bike and a 1x11 (i know it's not 12) once i tried it i have seen the light. not having to shift in the front is great. fully support the 1x12 movement.
because sram couldnt make a front mech to compete w shimano
I'm 100% happy with 12 speed and I'm stoked Shimano finally entered the game! 💯
I am still riding a 1998 GT 1000 with a 3x8 Shimano drive train. Personally, I never use the biggest front cog because it's too high, so I typically run the middle cog unless if I'm out of shape and need less resistance with the smallest cog. I am looking forward to the day when I can afford a Marin Rift Zone 3 with the 1x drivetrain to make shifting easier
I was running 1x9 then 1x8 back in 2001 on my Intense Tracer. Before that used a Rohloff went back to derailleur cause of the weight. Used a Rohloff chain guide where the front derailleur went cause chain would come off the chainring. After that went to SingleSpeed on same bike but that was too much on a full suspension so got a hardtail SS. Got tired of all the gadgetry. Stopped riding seriously in 2008 when I went carless for 3years. Got a car again but never really went back to riding. A few months ago got a YT Izzo Core2 and am really liking the 1x12 full suspension again. No cross shifting to find the right gear, that was a pain especially in technical up/down, with multi rings up front. Man bike tech and geometry has come a long ways since the early 2000s. The NX is only a 11-50t and feels fine even with my out of shape middle age ass.
When I had a 3x 9 I tended to leave the back alone and shift the front gear for up, down, and flat.... 3 Speed bike. Now I'm on a 1 x 10 (11-42) with 380% range. I want more range, but don't need more gears. 9 or 10 speeds is enough for me, stronger chains, less finicky shifting, but I'd like to get to that with a 500% range.
Just took delivery of a Cube reaction carbon hard tail with a mix of new generation 1 X 12 SLX and XT bits with 32T up front driving 10-51 in the back. It's been years since I have ridden. My last bike, was an old 90s era specialized chromoly frame job with some upgraded components from the early 2000s. I think my last setup was a 3 X 8 with probably close to 600% of "range."
Gripes about the 1 X
1. I feel like I can almost "feel" the driveline efficiency drop off at the far ends of the cassette. It's not as smooth running as even cheaper groupsets back in day in low gears due to the chain "angle."
2. Even with this latest generation of 10-51 tooth cassette, I feel like I'm still missing a bit of low and and top end. Probably don't "need" it, but I can definitely "feel" that the range isn't there.
3. 12 gears on the back has much the same problem that 2 X and 3 X sets have, too many pointlessly tight gears for the intended use of the type of bike this is going on. I find myself almost always "double-tapping" the up-shifts between putting down power.
I'd like to see them keep the same "thinner" chain and tighter cogs, but drop down to 8-9 speeds with just slightly more range. Can I have a 10-54? .... 10, 12, 15, 19, 24, 30, 37, 45, 54? That would solve the range issues, the "not good alignment" issues, and the too many gears issues.
Do these new systems work on older bikes (1x11 or 1x12)
Is there any good sight to use to compare gear ratios to older bikes (ie I have 3x7 or 3x8 and I’m typically sitting in 2x3 to 2x7 range during normal use
Mr. Levy your percentage calculations are killing me. I am officially dead.
If you’re officially dead, then I guess you won’t be needing that bike of yours anymore...
Had 11 speed Shimano XT on my old bike and have 12 speed Sram GX on my new bike. Like the feel of the shifter on the Sram, like the ability to get two harder gears on my XT coming over a climb or out of a slow corner.
I am super interested in the box components prime 9 drive train. I find myself always shifting 2-3 gears at once on my 11 speed slx. Personally, never cared much about cadence, I'm at home grinding or spinning. 12 speed is good too tho.
3 chainwheels 24-34-42. 8 cogs 11-12-14-16-18-21-24-28. Anything else is a solution in search of a problem from my perspective. Chain life and sprocket lifespan are very long -- well over 1 year on average with daily riding.
My STX-RC shift pods are still working fine after 24 years on my 1998 Fisher. Hundreds of thousands of shifts by now without any service. Quite amazing longevity for plastic, brass, and stainless steel bits.
Just installed a Sora R3000 on my lightweight 2006 ZR 9000 Trek bicycle (carbon on both frame ends fork and seat stays). The 9 speed with its front derailleur gave me a great test ride, without a huge cassette on the rear wheel. Weight be damned, the 18 forward speeds might have some overlap, but I do not shift like I found necessary when I was riding a three chainring crank & downtube shifters. I do not mountain bicycles, or go off pavement yet I am about to convert to tubeless tires to eliminate the goathead flat tires we have all over the valley.
I'm okay with my 12 speed performance. Have eagle on 2 of my bikes. 11x with e13 cassette on another(thats working well for me too). My next, project I am going to try microshifh advent x though.
I like the advent x. The shifts are bang on and the clutch is super easy to adjust and then rock solid.
I have an 11/46 and feel perfectly fine with it
Still here with my dated 10spd XT drivetrain, with the OneUp 42t cog that’s swapped out the 36t (or whatever it was). 32t up front. My range is lacking a bit haha. Still works though!
Just went from 10 to 12 speeds when I upgraded my bike. I really hated 12 speeds at first, minnesota is a lot of short punchy ups with short downs. I swore i was going box wide range 9 speed, however once I actually started paying attention to cadence, I realized how important 12 speed is. Its definitely not perfect and super expensive, but its pretty awesome.
KCNC makes a 9-52 tooth and this is the next cassette i'm getting ever more range than the new SRAM stuff
I’m seriously considering an upgrade from 11 to 12 speeds on my SRAM GX bike. How bad is it to skip the chainring upgrade and run my existing chainring on a 12 speed chain?
Just tried to fit my Shimano 11s crank to my Shimano 12s transmission and was enraged when it didn’t work.
I like my Diamondback Catch with two front gears and 10 gears in the rear. I have a 20 speed... gives better high end pedaling.
My aliexpress eagle sx 12spd complete drivetrain runs like a champ. Final cost with shipping was $335 cad. 32 tooth chainring, crank arms, dub bb, chain, cassette, derailleur, and shifter. All brand new with serial numbers.
I couldn't get my 3x7 dismantled fast enough...
What a difference.
sx derailleur still work good ?
A cassette that is 10 to 50 isn't 500% range because it's 10 x 50 but just because 50 is 5 times larger than 10. Just as an 11speed cassette that is 11 to 46 isn't 11 x 46 which equals 506! The correct method for that example would be 46/11=4.18 or 418% gear range. Example 2. For a cassette that is 10 to 52 is 52/10=5.2 times that by 100 for the percentage and that's 520% (essentially moving the decimal 2 places).
Hi guys i have recently ordered from chain reaction cycles from Canada and the shipper or tracker called SkyNet is asking for a pretty high fee for shipping and gst and pst. The shipping i told on the CRC was supposed to be free, is this a scam or not? Please help.
Haha “420 percent range”
Lmao
Nice 😎
Nice
Nice
Nice
I own a SRAM SX and I LOVE IT. I do wish though that I had 1 higher gear for when I'm commuting/roading. Despite what Mike said about 10-50 mine is a 11-50.
If I had a 10-50 I bet I would be satisfied with the highest gear but as of right now I want 13 baby!
Would it be crazy to convert a 7-speed downhill bike to a 12-speed??? I know the pedal efficiency would not be great, but I have some awesome blue/black trails a mile from my house, and really want to descend them on a downhill bike vs my enduro...thoughts??? Thanks!!!
The Shimano slx 1x12 on my Giant trance 2 29er is such a smooth drvetrain.
Can you team up with donut media for a video on Levy's mini?
The 2 x 10 Drivetrain on my Fatty has 625% range. For touring add a 42t ring for some speed and get 729% - Should I go 1x? Why do 'we' have 12-speed drivetrains?
It's not that maths isn't his forte - the real problem is that there was no one screaming "STOP! This is not what I learned. Let's get the calculation right and tape that section again"
He didn’t mention the option on chain ring size that 12 speed gives.
I’ve just upgraded from XO1 11 10/42 x 28 chain ring to XO1 12 10/52 x 32. I now have a much faster 12th gear and an even easier granny gear. Win/win.
Paired with an absolute black oval it is amazing.
And less ground clearance, and more weight. Run a smaller chainring and you get more ground clearance, less weight, less money. How often do you really pedal hard on a 32t ring with a 10t cog? Probably once a month or less.
Hey. I’m looking to upgrade my build , and considering an absolute black oval ring, any advice / insight from your experience? I am replacing a freehub which means I will have to move to a 1x12, but know nearly nothing about assembling ideal components to compliment the oval ring. This bike will be a commuter, and almost entirely flat ground, so speed is ideal. Thank in advance for any thoughts you might have 🙏
Hi, I love your video. I have a quiestion, Can I used the same chain? Where I live there are very few hills and I want to get more speed. I have a (1 x 12) 11-50 38t chainring. I would like to get a 40t or 42t chainring. Would I need a longer chain? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. I have never used the 50( just not hilly enough) I was thinking maybe a 46t but that might be to big. Thanks
I've gone 12 speed on my mountain bike Trek Roscoe 7 and love it 😀
I'd prefer even 1x6 setup with 500% range. I'd gladly sacrifice half the gears to reduce cost and make parts stronger thanks to wider chain. I understand that you want more gears for competition use but for hobby use it really doesn't matter how fast you can travel on MTB so you can use less gears but you still want lots of range. That said, I guess rear derailleur would have hard time switching between 6 gears in 500% range because the size difference between gears would be so huge.
If im using a xt derailleur with xt cranks but slx cassette and chain is gonna work at it best?
Just this year I get a new mountain bike with twelve speed I love it! Sure as hell beats having a front derailer!!
I thing that unless you're an xc racer that alway must have the perfect cadence for climbing super fast, you're gonna be fine with a 9 or 10 speed 11-46 or 48 cassette. Also, 12 speed chains and cassettes that aren't garbage are stupid expensive
Not if you plan on also covering fire road and road at decent speed as well as climbing the steepest trails. 2x12 or 3x10 both give a range that allows your bike to actually be versatile rather than tied to trail centers and spinning out anywhere there's open flat trail.
2x12 XT here. Can go fast on flats AND climb everything without a problem. No ragrets.
@Maciej Jan Długosz Nope, nothing. Just pure default setup: crank, chainrings, derailleur.
I can understand the problem you showed in the video, but honestly, i've never had that and i've been riding this 2x system for a year now, even on very rough rocky terrain.
Gotta add though, that i grew up with 3x systems, without a clutch or any chain guides, so i kinda learned how to avoid chain drop.
The 1x narrow-wide chainring helps keeping the chain on, it's a bit more foolproof and more suitable for very rough riding. But the clutch works so well even for a 2x, you have to ride like crazy to ever drop a chain just by going fast.
@Maciej Jan Długosz hmm... wouldn't a 2x conversion be a too big investment? I mean... there's still a bit of room to play with, using a smaller chainring or switching to a 51t cassette.
Cross chaining is indeed terrible, i hope that shimano will come up with a solution to this, maybe a "floating" chainring. Or pushing the gearbox technology
@Maciej Jan Długosz Maybe a year or two ago i saw an article that shimano has patented a very similar system to the one you linked here. I'm not really sure if i'm a big fan of this design.
Sadly, pinion is still too expensive, and gripshift is a big no for many people.
www.bikeradar.com/news/shimano-gearbox/
Whit all do respect to Sram they never made a front derailleur that workd, so thats why they killed it in the first place! But better since then they have made a lot of nice stuff regarding driveterain! Don't wanna mention the brakes the should dropd it like its hot 😊
The cassette range has (nearly) nothing to do with the number of cogs. You can build a 10-50 cassette with fewer cogs if you want (the gap between cogs might make the shifts a bit slower for some switches, but, as we can see, the 11 speed 10-42 cassette has a 6-tooth gap between the penultimate and the last cog, which is huge).
Notice that in road bikes, 11-34 cassettes became popular with the arrival of 11-speed drivetrains. Right after that transition, you could easily find 11-34 8-speed cassettes, because now they were trendy.
The - true - good reason is: the number of cogs has a positive impact on the compromises you have to do in order to maximize your range, or (which is the correlate) a very good impact on continuity in short range cassettes.
That's why roadies who know what they're doing (and live on plains) love the 11-speed 12-25 cassettes: the scaling is just great, with only one-tooth jumps from the 12-tooth cog up until the 19-tooth cog. It's the closest to continuous gearboxes that you can achieve with the system.
Plus 500 % is not 80 % more than 420 %, technically, although you can count nominal percentages (which doesn't make sense). It's more like 20 % better.
10,11,&12 speed are all phenomenal in there own right.I personally have a need for so it’s all about the deraileur capacity to me.Any XTR system does the trick for me as far as cadience,efficiency is concerned.
When is the XC Field test coming?! Need to decide on my next bike.
I love the 12 speed. Here i need all 11-52 to get up the hills. I'm glad I bought a 1x12.
was so confused as a roadie with 11-52 for uphill :)
Haha you are not good with per cent :D 10 times 50 = 500% haha so shimano 11speed is 11 times 46 = 506% :D Range is calculated as largest cog divided by smallest cog and them multiplied by 100 to have per cent.
What are you talking about? The range has nothing to do with the amount of gears / speeds. It's the range between the smallest cog and the biggest cog. It could be three speed and it would not matter, the range of a 10/50 cassette would still be 500%
@@SigurdFlaatten again, you're wrong buddy, Gwimpin has is right like my comment was too.
@@SigurdFlaatten Does that mean a 11/50 cassette would have a range of 550%?
@@robertturnip7850 no, rounded up it would have a range of 455% (50 is 4.545 times bigger than 11)
@@SigurdFlaatten Yes I understand that. But this video was giving a totally incorrect calculation.
Love how happy you looked Mike with all 12 hanging there! Go math!
I run an 8speed 11-42 cassette using a 10 speed expander cog that weighs 360g. 30 tooth N/W front with 26' wheels. $30 derailleur $30 shifter $11 chain $15 cassette $40 expander.
My gravel bike runs a 9 speed 11-40 that weighs 460g, with triple front derailleur.
Isn't there an added benefit to using a one-by for suspension kinematics?
Yes, range and cadence are valid reasons to get more gears, but not much between 11 and 12 speed cassettes.
I've used an SLX 1x11 with some modifications to run an 11-50 cassette and I also recently used a SRAM SX Eagle 1x12 with an 11-50 cassette as well for a month. They're so close in terms of cadence I rarely felt a difference and the range is the same.
Then there's the 10 tooth cog, but then again, that was already possible in the 11 speed cassettes back in the day. The only drawback I had with the modified 1x11 was the downshifting was lazy because the derailleur wasn't meant to handle the 50T cassette as smooth as newer ones, so I had to hold the shifting lever a fraction of a second after I hear the click for the gear to shift properly, but then again, newer 11 speed derailleur with the 12 speed improvements would've got the same result without changing the whole drivetrain.
The switch to 12 speeds it's something that eventually needed to happen, but not really that much with the current implementation, rather when we were moving ranges like 9-52 so there's much more range to move and the gears would be much more spread.
Does anyone remember if the old 8 speed kit lasted better, and stayed in tune or maybe it was just the Moto oil I used on the chain back then.
Funny thing - just selling a really (really) old MTB tandem with an 8 speed XTR drivetain and that stuff just sucks compared with the modern 11 or 12 speed setups. And I've kept it maintained, so it's not worn out. It's night and day.
Just picked up a beat up old 3x7 to refurbish. Bike is filthy and neglected and the chain is rust but it shifts flawlessly. This is the advantage of a less refined system that works with looser tolerances.
I'll stick to my Prime 9 wide for general mountain biking thanks. This is for light riding XC stuff since that's where cadence actually counts more. /shrug
Noob question. Does thinner chain eventually mean more chain stretching? Does it need more tuning after a while?
Do you lose top end speed over an 8 x 2? I like to ride trail but I also use my bike to commute.
i like my 2x10 a lot, it has 22t and 36t front and 11t-44t rear. I don't switch front chainrings during a ride, small is for heavy-duty hill challenges, big is for riding. i would be curious to know that range percentage
22t front, 44t rear? It's faster and easier to walk the bike at that absurd ratio. I had a 20t granny chainwheel and a 30t cog on my bike, and it was almost pointless to pedal. The 20t front to 24t rear cog was useful on the steepest trails -- maybe a 26t would work, but I've never seen one.
It is 4 teeth in between not 6.
still running a 3x9....not sure what 10000% range it is. Most people made the claim to switch to 1x was for weight savings, and a more simple bar layout. And then they add a dropper post and lever....Not sure what gain you actually get with a 1x12 system. A Granny gear up front is much lighter than a 50+ tooth gear out back.
A little too much focus is on range, i.e. 420% or 500%. What is more important is gear ratio, 32:50 or 22:32 (chain ring teeth divided by sprocket teeth). That gives your effort to performance. The cadence issue is the best argument for more cogs when switching to a 1X system. I have wondered if making the switch would worth it since I can't afford a new full squish bike.
12 is nice for sure but as long as i can keep getting XT 11-46 cassettes, i'm going to keep rolling with my 11 speeds (and my HG hub).
I bought an 11 speed XT derailleur in haste then thought I wanted a 12 now want to sell the 11 ...not sure what I want.
i have an sram nx eagle, most of the time im in 12th speed, and when climbing hard im in 4th, i really worry about damaging something when pushing really hard cause the drivetrain feels so flimsy, already has 7000 km on it, about to do some maintenance (new chain, new derailleur guide wheels, maybe new chainring since it seems bent)
Me and my friend both want to buy either Sram NX drivetrain or SRAM NX Eagle drivetrains and im being curious, can i put the cassette on any freehub or it must some kind of a special freehub or whatever its called?
nx is just a standard freehub.
@@bananasstuff3344 what about nx eagle tho?
When will SRAM roll out the 13 cog setup? I can only imagine it is in the next year or 2. I know Rotor has a 13 speed cassette derailleur, but it hasn’t taken off.
Now we need 1x14 I would say! More SPEEEEED and POWAAAAAAAAAA
I'm really interested in 11 or 12's- it will be a huge upgrade for me, since I have a 3 by 9 drivetrain. Shifting down from 3-5 to a 2-something gear makes me mad since I have to shift both gear levers in order not to "spin out". I have to go from 3-5 to 2-7 or else I feel like I go into neutral from 3-5 to 2-5, the gear change is too big on that, so I have to shift up at the casette. It drives me mad, no pun intended.
I like bigger jumps between gears still running 9 speed 11-46 1x i tried an 11-40 cassette and found it a bit too close ratio shifing 2 or 3 gears at a time i may go up to 10 speed one day but 11 or 12 i question reliability and cost i do however use an 11 speed chain for the extra clearance as 9-12 speed chains are aparently all the same width internally only the outer plates getting thiner