Price is what killed the original Tri-ang TT with 00 gauge being almost the same price to sell and develop, have hornby learned nothing from Tri-ang days.
A couple of pence more plastic for the 00 gauge but still the same time spent on tooling production so difficult to save a great amount of money for the smaller gauge. Not to mention the limited amount of models they will sell from the mould production run. It all costs money, and the price is structured to reflect this otherwise you are making things to sell at a loss.
I think Sam is right. These are way too expensive for what you get. Small wonder Hornby are struggling financially. At this rate it won't be long before they finally go out of business.
@@tonypacke6954every one talks about tooling and how expensive it is but hornby have airfix tooled wagons still in the range!!! Yet they are no cheaper than others, the only reason why they whack up the price is that some dumb people will pay for it, those hale fuel livery wagons have been around in oo since airfix (i have some) its easy to scan an item and half the sacle or whatever tt120 is, stop lying to yourself and admit they are way to overpriced, 1 locomotive and a decent rake of wagons shouldn’t cost £500
I’m with you. As an N scale modeler, I’m constantly shocked by what we get charged for utterly simple items. A boxcar without opening doors made from 40 year old tooling goes for $30.00 Any explanation they could give would be utter bull. But they always come up with one. It’s embarrassing to be a small scale guy these days. 😊👍👍
These prices are Mad, i ordered a set of TWO N scale BR coaches from Rails of Sheffield for £26, so the same price basically for a SINGLE freight wagon, even up a scale, is crazy,
Agreed. And, honestly, if I would consider TT scale someday, I will buy German models instead. Not cheaper but you get the quality. See what you can get from Tillig for the same price (around 25/26 €).
As a new adoptor of this guage, i don't think the prices are too bad considering everything is newly tooled and the detail on everything I've purchased so far has been outstanding. I would be concerned if there were major issues at this price point - eg the earlier tankers - i won't pay a higher price point for product where a basic fault exists.
You wont be saying this in 20 years time when they are using the same tooling but changing over 4 times the price, don’t believe me, 20 years ago a wagon was about £5 and the same tooled wagon is now £20-30 Yet people’s wages haven’t multiplied by that much
Maybe Hornby will reissue in GW / Western region livery in future? TBH at this scale I'm not really worried as long as it looks like a vent wagon whatever the pedigree
HI Sam. Thanks for keeping looking at TT120. ON this occasion however I think that I have seldom disagreed more with the value for money rating. Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t think it’s great, probably no more than 2 1/2. But it’s also absolutely not a rip off, which is what a one-star has always been reserved for. Sadly the comparison too with the EFE wagon was an odd choice. Surely the more relevant comparison would be Hornby’s OO vent van, priced at 26.99, and equally basic? What happens here is that this gives air to the conspiracy theorists who think Sam has it in for Hornby, instead of noticing that aside from the outlier on price, this is a straight 8/10 model.
Oh without question there are cheaper vans than these from Hornby in TT. I’m not making the case these are cheap. Dapol do great stuff. But their vans are renowned for being almost unbelievably cheap. They are not representative. Hornby’s TT is pricy but not insane rip-off levels. Thats what a one-star rating is for. Sam believes Hornby’s should make them cheaper to establish the scale. That belief has resulted in this rating. It is less objective than his usual ratings. Maybe, just maybe, they know they now have established the scale and have no need for loss-leader pricing anymore?
@@gregmacdonald927 Yes but according to the Hornby Forum anything made in the UK should be double the price. Dapol make their wagons in Wales with UK energy prices and business rates. Sam's point was it is a reasonable wagon let down by a very expensive price. He is very positive about TT and would like to see it work, with prices like this, there is no chance.
Feels like nobody understands economy of scale. Price is also dependant on expected volume of sales/amount manufactured. Not just size and amount of details. You cannot expect products for a new and niche gauge to rival the price of other, more established scales. Models need to be evaluated from the detail/cost of other similar models in their gauges/market area. Otherwise, we might as well complain they are more expensive than a Hot Wheel toy car
Off topic I've just bought a Hornby 7 plank wagon "SHIREBROOK" nr Mansfield in 00 I worked coal trains into Shirebrook colliery in the 70s couldn't resist it although I only run a modern TMD!
Just because it is smaller does not mean that the cost will be lower. The design, tooling, manufacture, decoration process will cost the same. For example a 1/144 scale model kit will cost roughly the same as a 1/72 scale kit of the same subject. Maybe to get people into the hobby companies need to make models that are not super detailed but reasonable representations of the subject. Why does the underside need to be detailed, why does the tiny printing need to be legible at such a scale and so on.
I can't help but to compare this to new releases in the N Gauge space. £25 will get you some beautiful kit, £10-15 for a wagon, and that usually includes load and/or weathering. Graham Farish is in a similar position to Hornby in terms of pricing, but their stuff at N just seems to be higher quality at Hornby price points.
I think I can show some empathy here for Hornby as the tt scale is not as popular as at least G scale, my preferred scale, I don’t think it’ll be discontinued, but it would be nice to see more effort in TT scale.
It does seem to be pretty popular to be fair - much more so than G scale in the UK I'd wager - hopefully they do keep supporting it! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Hi Sam! Considering these modern prices, would you consider making a video about older locomotives/rolling stock that you absolutely recommend? They could range from tri-ang to modern hornby and your recommendations would be really useful!
It will never be like the 90's with IHC and Model power where you could buy a $5.00 Ho wagon. Even "name brand" wagons were only $15.00 for the basic range. A certain event in 2001 drove prices on everthing, all around the world since.
My husband say he has too much invested in OO scale and won't be making any change of scale , the worst problem is the hobby is pricing itself out of business
Bad news incoming: Hornby will be hiking up their prices in September, a 10 to 15 % increase is incoming according to TMC. Seems Hornby has already lined up their prices with their TT scale... For comparison, you have a Graham Farish LNER 12t fruit van in N for GBP 18,50 at Rails of Sheffield.
Whilst I agree with your assessment that based on raw materials, there shouldn’t be such a minimal price difference, but I don’t think you’re considering economies of scale here. The market for TT is way smaller than OO/HO, so it’ll be the amount made, combined with production costs that will determine the price to consumer. However, I agree with you that Hornby should keep the discount in place until TT is more established.
Yeah that's absolutely true, agreed 100%... but it's a catch 22 situation... with prices like this, TT may never grow to become as popular as OO. I think Hornby should possibly look to profit a little less from each TT sale in the name of growing the scale and getting it adopted. If they're not in the position to do this due to their financial situation etc, I question whether TT was the right choice for them. Hopefully it still goes places though, as the models themselves are fantastic! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains I agree. It was a huge gamble for Hornby… and you have to go big or go broke with something like this… as you’ve alluded before, and I fear they’re sadly heading for the latter. I really like the TT stuff, it all seems pretty decent and the scale suits my limited space… but Hornby haven’t done enough to win to me over with choice and price. I would imagine it’s the same for a lot of potential customers. Fingers crossed they weather this storm.
Awesome video Sam's trains I have some exciting news for you Bachmann is going to be making a ho scale Sidney and also the mainland diesels from Thomas and friends
You could reach out to Pete Waterman and look do some kind of joint video. You love the trains and kit, he is more a modeller. It would be interesting. Just for fun.
6:22 to correct just a little bit the metal molds is stainless steel injection cost between $3,000 - $6,000 for simple molds but can go over $100,000 each depending whats being for and the size of the machine the details in the pieces and how many parts one mold is making which smaller parts allows to make more models not counting the costs of plastic, diecast are metal I don't know how much that be in British money but hopefully this gives a bit of manufacturing info
Years ago I was talking to a fellow who came out with motor mount modification parts for H.O. locomotives and I was taken back by the cost of molds and materials to make the piece. Hornby probably also prices to spread the cost of models that are sales duds. Also, dealers have to feel it is a product worth carrying profit wise.
Maybe Hornby might give you sales numbers on some of these models. It doesn't follow every piece sells in large numbers and a lower price also does not guarantee a greater number of units sold will happen.
I do find it strange that Hornby actively discouraged other manufacturers from making motive power and rolling stock for TT. At some point, unless that policy changes I predict TT’s take-up to stagnate.
Hi Sam I don’t know what’s going on with Hornby but they also stopped the loco’s in the Hornby’s collector club and at £30.00 for a badge, card,magazine and a lanyard , I can’t see the value in that.
The level of detail and the prices are comparable with Farish N gauge stock and the underframe is decent, though of the wrong design for the mineral wagon. But the bodies are copies of Airfix and Mainline products in 00 scale from about 45 years ago and neither is completely authentic. The van is not an LNER vehicle at all but a GWR design and the mineral has had to be stretched to fit its underframe (correctly sized mineral wagons on the correct underframes have been available for years in N and 00 from the likes of Bachmann, Farish and Oxford). Really, these are Railroad class models compared with some of the other TT wagons which have been designed to a very high standard.
I will never agree with you that TT120 should be much cheaper than 00. Companies know their costs of development and production. It is clear that TT is now established and growing.
It uses considerably less plastic and metal. Wether that's offset by them being more fidly is unknown. There's also less packaging . I think value should be 2. They're well detailed , better than the peco ones. But they're much cheaper.
@@madhatter61dude you have no idea of the real world. Most of the cost involved with producing models is in tooling and manufacturing costs. Just because something is a bit smaller than another thing does not mean that the costs to produce is shrink as a result.
Well with a certain someone having a huge share in hornby, who shall not be named, and their propensity to jack prices up while noticeably dropping the quality of any products i wouldn't expect any price drops or quality increase any time soon
Sam, nice videos, and womderful decirated models, but sometimes I have a feeling that your priorities does not really follow the physical requirements for a good model and good performance. I do not know who really needs sprung buffers, but every modeller would like to know for eg. the weigth of the vehicle. ( there are even some standards in NMRA) - unfortunately many manufacturers ignore this fact, and the wagons are to light especially for that type of couplers. The kinematic mechanism is a must for that kind of couplers.
When Hornby announced TT120 I was initially interested enough to check it out, liking the idea of the track gauge matching the model size. The Train sets with the 15% discounts seemed not unreasonable. However, rolling stock prices look expensive, they discouraged other manufacturers from joining in, meaning you were hostage to Hornby. If they wound up discontinuing the range you would be left with a limited niche scale with no development. Then there was the whole cutting-out model shop's stance. For these reasons I decided NO. I have not regretted that decision! & your review has not changed my mind. Granted I am a tight git!
Your videos encouraged me to do a repair on a train that I bought from eBay that was supposed to work. Thanks next one is replaceing a motor. Where can I get parts ?
I think they are worth the money if you are in the TT hobby, but for a new person in the model hobby is the TT in general definitely a no go. Then you can better go to H0 or N
Hey, Sam are you ever going to do another LNER O2/3 Tango Unboxing & Review last one you did was 5 years ago? I just wanna see if the Tango can redeem itself this time.
Complaint again Sam,that's no way to support these products, it's not as if you have a use by date on rolling stock, yes not perfect, nothing is in this world, it performs ok for 20.00 pounds, try that in Australian dollars mate, so you not doing to bad,you get paid per like,so be a bit more respectful, keep up the good work ok lad,tally ho chap ,need a pint of bitter 👍 😉
Pricing, well they will sell less so want a higher price etc - this is however a "that is sounds like your problem" situation. for the end user I suspect the appeal of TT is being able to run larger trains in a smaller space, without going down to N scale so say what in OO would be six wagons maybe becomes nine in TT, the price for the whole train should be about the same really
Sam, do you know why the HM7000 decoders without sound are still not in stock? Surely there can't be any technical difficulties. I believe Hornby is trying to force people to buy the more expensive sound decoders.
They say it is because they can't get the ICs. I suspect they can't get them for the right price. The guy that is organising this also does HM7000 and given the issues with HM7000, I just think he is "snowed under" with work.
I think Hornby are coming to terms with a fundamental problem with TT, they can't deliver them to market at a price that the market can accept. I really can't see it having a future, will not be surprised to see them sell the tooling to another manufacturer to raise some cash.
Hornby said they reintroduced TT as a cheaper alternative to 00 to make it more affordable for newcomers. Then they make models at this price. Ridiculous. If hornby wanted to do something useful they should have entered the 009 market, a scale that is actually growing and popular, and one that has a huge custom model market showing that there is so much demand for the scale that people are willing to make their own models. But obviously Hornby wouldn’t do that as other manufacturers like Bachmann are in 009 and Hornby cant stand competition.
There is a substantial demand for small models with good presence, hence the trend towards small engines in OO like the recent Hawthorn Leslie by Dapol, or the simultaneous attack by Bachmann on On30 and OO9. Hornby have the TT scale to answer to this trend, but it seems they don't have picked the right marketing strategy with it... Pity, their models are overall good in TT scale.
It would have made sense for them to go into 0 or N, or just start selling American stuff under their name. Both would make far more economical sense, considering how much bigger each respective market is when compared to TT120.
I know it’s been around for a while but you can buy an airfix Cromwell tank in 1/76th scale for £12.99 so what’s that plus the metal wheels and that’s the price these rolling stock items should be. There’s also multiple kits out there for the same price as these wagons and there is almost 6x the plastic in them. Rip off indeed.
Well it appears from the 1st September they will be 10% more. Looking at the Box van a close comparison would be with the Dapol "chocolate" vans, I think I paid about £14 weathered. What is about TT, soon as you state the obvious you get a ton of abusive messages and justifications why it is so expensive. Hornby are in reality the only supplier of TT120, yes a few bits are made by other suppliers, but why wouldn't Hornby "milk it" for all they can. They are slowly losing the OO battle to better suppliers, so this is all they have left.
did the math, and 25.99 would be a good price for these - if it were in USD. But it's not. It translates to $33.16 in USD, which is almost $10 USD more than it should be. The problem is there's no competition so Hornby feels complacent in knowing they can charge whatever they bloody want, regardless of the quality issues. They know that if you want TT-scale stuff, you HAVE to come to Hornby. You CAN'T go anywhere else. And that's disastrous for the hobby. Competition is absolutely ESSENTIAL. I'll be surprised if TT-scale survives another year at this rate. They HAVE to lower their prices if they want it to survive. Also that Pico van wanted this video to be all about IT! Because it wasn't getting attention, it decided to throw a fit and malfunction! I've actually heard of a REAL-LIFE locomotive throwing a tantrum like that before. The Strasburg Railroad here in the US runs steam-powered excursion trains. One of their locomotives, years ago, was apparently very tempermental. If the crews didn't pay enough attention to her over the winter, she would literally throw a fit. She'd be rolling along, smooth as could be, and then some random part would just inexplicably fall off! Just proves that steam locomotives have so much personality that a diesel never will.
Sam I'm assuming you haven't seen the prices we yanks pay for n scale rolling stock. Talk about frightful. Microtrains,athearn,rapido, and the list goes on. Our three level autoracks go anywhere from 40 to 70 usd
I hope hornby aren't doing what they did with Era 1 get people invested with good products and then raise the prices after some time to gouge out some money
Price is what killed tri ang TT scale and Hornby have not learned from tri ang. TT should be at least 20% cheaper but they’re not which is why I wouldn’t bother investing in TT scale
The coulongs are still ridiculously huge. ..and hornby hsve just made the rapido and sccurascske. Wagkns good vskue Hornby are a ship with no captain and no rudder
The price of Hornby's TT wares are really hurting the adoption rate of the scale, they really need to reassess what they are doing with the scale. If they don't it will be another costly mistake on their end.
The couplings on Hornby are generally very good. Peco aren't good and are poor quality. I'd recommend changing them. They're nice wagons but over priced, probably even more so after Sept 1st 24.
So how about an apples to apples price comparison. You seem to refuse to compare to other TT120 manufacturers. The cheapest wagon from Piko is about £30!
I still think TT120 is a white elephant. I run a used model shop. I surveyed my customers last week about the scales they model. Of over 200 responses at time of writing. I have more customers that model, On30, G scale, 16mm, US N Scale, Z scale and even NG7. All more popular than are modelling TT120 currently. I don’t want it to fail, it’s a great scale. But it’s really not getting established currently.
Sam, you obviously hate Hornby's TT range (probably everything Hornby does too !) so why do you have to review it ? Just stick to your OO ! Oh and by the way...sorry to inform you but the TT 120 scale is doing very well and will just get more and more popular as time goes by :)
Not at all - almost all of my TT reviews are positive with great scores… why do you think that? And what are you basing your claims of TT’s success on? Please share your source. Reading Hornby’s recent annual report suggested a significant decline in TT revenue over the second year, so I’d be interested in whether your claims are based on data or just a feeling you have.
What does 3D printing have to do with it? There's no way you can use 3D printing to produce a piece of TT (or even OO) rolling stock with a decent amount of detail.
@@kc5402 have you seen Sam’s series on designing a oo problem class, you can 3d print a lot more details than you think, especially if you have a resin printer and take the time to CAD a good looking model
@@kc5402 his resin printers shouldn't have a problem matching the moulding on the Hornby wagons. I've seen some extremely impressive results. Sam might even be able to get the model to have sprung buffers.
Well, you keep on persisting on price and size, but - as has been commented so often - they're not correlated at all whatsoever, in terms of O, OO, H0, N and TT. A smaller price for a smaller size is something you've made up really. In fact, smaller in the model trains world usually means a higher price. You agreeing or not, it's a given. H just brought TT out to serve potential customers with smaller space, nothing more. Are these worth 25 GBP (~30 Euro)? Absolutely not; quite overpriced. 20 GBP (~23 Euro) is perhaps more like it. However, these wagons don't match brands like Fleischmann (Roco N scale these days), Tillig, Piko, Kato and Arnold in the slightest in terms of fidelity / quality. H really must do better with these. Cheerio.
If one plots the price on the vertical axis, and size (scale) on the horizontal axis, there’s probably a local minima around HO/OO scale. It’s not so small that details are fragile and difficult to machine, cast, or injection mold, but not so big it requires much more material to make (as it’s an increase in volume, or distance cubed). To use a practical example, drill bits go down to #80 which is a very tiny drill bit, and quite fragile - you really need a drill press and a suitable chuck to use these small drill bits (from #61 to #80), but you can get them fairly easily, and are handy for drilling holes for wire grab irons in HO or OO scale. Go down to TT or N scale though, and even a #80 may be too big if you want scale-accurate wire sizes for those grab irons, and the corresponding holes. Go down to Z scale, and you’re pretty much stuck with molded-on grab irons. Not only will you have difficulty making a hole small enough, you’ll have problems finding wire that’s stiff enough. Going up in scale eases the tooling/machining problem, but requires more raw materials to make (like 3D printer filament, or resin, or plastic pellets for injection molding.) It’d be interesting to plot the price for a model of a given (common) prototype - such as an EMD SD 40-2, or a British A4 - in N (1:160), TT (1:120), HO (1:87), OO (1:76), S (1:64 I think…), O (1:48), and G (about 1:20) and see what the price really is. That being said, size isn’t the only factor; scale desirability factors in too.
I think comparing Hornby TT prices to EFE OO prices is a bit unfair on Hornby. EFE is more of a reasonably/budgetish priced brand in OO (or at least that's the impression I get), while Hornby in either scale is more of a premium brand (Railroad range excluded). A fairer comparison in terms of price between the scales would have been to use Bachmann or Rapido for OO, as they're more premium brands and Rapidos vans are north of £30 RRP. Just my take there.
Not really - that "budget" model from EFE rail had far more details and features than these did! I picked the EFE model because it's a good example of what can be achieved for this approximate price point. I agree that Rapido's vans aren't worth £30, which is why I didn't use them to illustrate this point! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
These wagons look nice but they are quite expensive which makes them quite a rip-off like you said Sam. We already know that Hornby is not doing well financially but this is not the proper way to save their company by stupidly jacking up the price. If Hornby continues to jack up their prices, they really will go bankrupt and go out of business soon
Let's put this in perspective. If you bought just four of these vent vans you would have spent £100; and Hornby will have all the research and drawings for this already, just needing to produce simplified tooling. I run a 1950s Austin Healey and I can buy an engine water pump for less than _one_ of these wagons and that's a similarly limited market.
At least they dont do it the usual modern business way with giving away god stuff and services, getting a monopol and then getting more and more expensive or inconvenient, like e.g. Amazon, Google/RUclips and Netflix. You know what you go into if you decide to go TT, so applause for that, even tho the prices seem very high to me. At least not "5$ per wagon but 2 years later it is 25 when you have no choice but continue your hobby".
A rather unrealistic mixture of Eras, I'm afraid. The new wagons will look fine behind the upcoming J50 locomotive, but it seems almost impossible to build an authentic TT120 layout, given the current range. At least the old Triang TT3 models were all in the then-current BR liveries! The prices are, as you say, way too high...and I wouldn't bet on the TT120 range lasting more than a year or two more.
Kinda shocking that Hornby are pricing themselves out of the market with these given they are trying to get a new scale started. These look nice enough but they definitely aren’t worth the price. Why did Hornby get rid of the club discount by the way? Don’t you have to pay to be in the club?? I don’t agree that people would go for OO over TT because of the silly pricing though, as the main advantage to TT is that it can fit in a smaller space. Personally I see N Gauge as more of a threat to TT.
Yeah - I think the prices are getting a bit prohibitive now, but I suppose they can't afford to reduce their margins on this stuff given their financial situation... hopefully this doesn't hamper adoption too much! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains I suppose this is true. Really though pricing yourself out of the market isn’t going to help you with a financial situation, especially if you’re trying to get a new scale started…
@@cbrooks122000 I figured that much. If there’s a competing product that is cheaper and equally good (sometimes better!) then nobody is going to buy the overpriced one just because a company is struggling financially…
Price is what killed the original Tri-ang TT with 00 gauge being almost the same price to sell and develop, have hornby learned nothing from Tri-ang days.
A couple of pence more plastic for the 00 gauge but still the same time spent on tooling production so difficult to save a great amount of money for the smaller gauge. Not to mention the limited amount of models they will sell from the mould production run. It all costs money, and the price is structured to reflect this otherwise you are making things to sell at a loss.
I think Sam is right. These are way too expensive for what you get. Small wonder Hornby are struggling financially. At this rate it won't be long before they finally go out of business.
@@pettra1 with no competition hornby can charge high prices.but they will price them selves out of business .
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results.
@@tonypacke6954every one talks about tooling and how expensive it is but hornby have airfix tooled wagons still in the range!!! Yet they are no cheaper than others, the only reason why they whack up the price is that some dumb people will pay for it, those hale fuel livery wagons have been around in oo since airfix (i have some) its easy to scan an item and half the sacle or whatever tt120 is, stop lying to yourself and admit they are way to overpriced, 1 locomotive and a decent rake of wagons shouldn’t cost £500
The irony is you can pick up a similar sized Hot Wheels diecast, fully painted and decorated toy car for £1.50.
They make those by the hundreds of thousands. The more you make the cheap they become it’s basic economics
I’m with you. As an N scale modeler, I’m constantly shocked by what we get charged for utterly simple items. A boxcar without opening doors made from 40 year old tooling goes for $30.00
Any explanation they could give would be utter bull. But they always come up with one.
It’s embarrassing to be a small scale guy these days.
😊👍👍
These prices are Mad, i ordered a set of TWO N scale BR coaches from Rails of Sheffield for £26, so the same price basically for a SINGLE freight wagon, even up a scale, is crazy,
Agreed. And, honestly, if I would consider TT scale someday, I will buy German models instead. Not cheaper but you get the quality. See what you can get from Tillig for the same price (around 25/26 €).
7 plank wagons all Sold out at the Hornby website and I really really want some, doesn’t appear to be an issue with people buying them!
Same with the NE vent van...
It does not matter what scale it is. The cost these days is way over the top.
As a new adoptor of this guage, i don't think the prices are too bad considering everything is newly tooled and the detail on everything I've purchased so far has been outstanding.
I would be concerned if there were major issues at this price point - eg the earlier tankers - i won't pay a higher price point for product where a basic fault exists.
You wont be saying this in 20 years time when they are using the same tooling but changing over 4 times the price, don’t believe me, 20 years ago a wagon was about £5 and the same tooled wagon is now £20-30
Yet people’s wages haven’t multiplied by that much
My wage has 😮
@@DaveC1964 good for you buddy, but the average wage hasn’t
@@kanehood3478 but we're talking about now, of course inflation is going to play it's part, especially over that period of time
@@kanehood3478mong
I mean, over all they look nuce, but the detail and features just don't justify this insane price, great video as always sam!😊
Is no one gonna ask how this "LNER" van is actually just a GWR ventilated van painted to look like LNER van
I was just thinking that same thought...
@@1471SirFrederickBanbury thats crazy
Maybe Hornby will reissue in GW / Western region livery in future?
TBH at this scale I'm not really worried as long as it looks like a vent wagon whatever the pedigree
As an experiment, the engine and coaches from the old kids show "Chigley" would be a cool 3d print model.."Bessie" was her name.
Thanks Jim,
HI Sam. Thanks for keeping looking at TT120. ON this occasion however I think that I have seldom disagreed more with the value for money rating. Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t think it’s great, probably no more than 2 1/2. But it’s also absolutely not a rip off, which is what a one-star has always been reserved for. Sadly the comparison too with the EFE wagon was an odd choice. Surely the more relevant comparison would be Hornby’s OO vent van, priced at 26.99, and equally basic? What happens here is that this gives air to the conspiracy theorists who think Sam has it in for Hornby, instead of noticing that aside from the outlier on price, this is a straight 8/10 model.
Just got a mail from Rails to preorder Dapol vans £11.60 and made in the UK.
Oh without question there are cheaper vans than these from Hornby in TT. I’m not making the case these are cheap. Dapol do great stuff. But their vans are renowned for being almost unbelievably cheap. They are not representative. Hornby’s TT is pricy but not insane rip-off levels. Thats what a one-star rating is for. Sam believes Hornby’s should make them cheaper to establish the scale. That belief has resulted in this rating. It is less objective than his usual ratings. Maybe, just maybe, they know they now have established the scale and have no need for loss-leader pricing anymore?
@@gregmacdonald927 Yes but according to the Hornby Forum anything made in the UK should be double the price. Dapol make their wagons in Wales with UK energy prices and business rates. Sam's point was it is a reasonable wagon let down by a very expensive price. He is very positive about TT and would like to see it work, with prices like this, there is no chance.
Feels like nobody understands economy of scale. Price is also dependant on expected volume of sales/amount manufactured. Not just size and amount of details. You cannot expect products for a new and niche gauge to rival the price of other, more established scales.
Models need to be evaluated from the detail/cost of other similar models in their gauges/market area. Otherwise, we might as well complain they are more expensive than a Hot Wheel toy car
There are two Hale Fuels open cars being pulled by the locomotive. They're both numbered 241.
Off topic I've just bought a Hornby 7 plank wagon "SHIREBROOK" nr Mansfield in 00 I worked coal trains into Shirebrook colliery in the 70s couldn't resist it although I only run a modern TMD!
Just because it is smaller does not mean that the cost will be lower. The design, tooling, manufacture, decoration process will cost the same. For example a 1/144 scale model kit will cost roughly the same as a 1/72 scale kit of the same subject.
Maybe to get people into the hobby companies need to make models that are not super detailed but reasonable representations of the subject. Why does the underside need to be detailed, why does the tiny printing need to be legible at such a scale and so on.
@@glencwilson in that case im going to ask hornby to tool me a 1/1 scale of mallard, shouldn’t cost more in materials just tooling………………
N GUAGE van is £20. Cost is all in the tooling and the volume produced, with similar complexity to TT120
I can't help but to compare this to new releases in the N Gauge space. £25 will get you some beautiful kit,
£10-15 for a wagon, and that usually includes load and/or weathering. Graham Farish is in a similar position to Hornby in terms of pricing, but their stuff at N just seems to be higher quality at Hornby price points.
I think I can show some empathy here for Hornby as the tt scale is not as popular as at least G scale, my preferred scale, I don’t think it’ll be discontinued, but it would be nice to see more effort in TT scale.
It does seem to be pretty popular to be fair - much more so than G scale in the UK I'd wager - hopefully they do keep supporting it!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
1st September hornby will be putting up prices by 10-20%.
So these will be more expensive.
Has that been confirmed officially? I've heard the rumour but not seen any specifics!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Yeah someone posted on RMWeb an email received from TMC about it
What they said thanks guys.@SamsTrains
Rmweb .tmc were trying to get people to order early.
Please could you review a Piko starter set. I've got the ice3 starter set and I think it's brilliant. Would love to know what an expert thinks
Great video! Im facinated by the details, very nice. it was a very nice running session too! Have a nice day Sam!😃
Hi Sam! Considering these modern prices, would you consider making a video about older locomotives/rolling stock that you absolutely recommend? They could range from tri-ang to modern hornby and your recommendations would be really useful!
In 00 Hornby have been selling a GWR Mink van as a LNER van for years now. Now they are doing the same in TT! Shame as it a nice GW van.
It will never be like the 90's with IHC and Model power where you could buy a $5.00 Ho wagon. Even "name brand" wagons were only $15.00 for the basic range. A certain event in 2001 drove prices on everthing, all around the world since.
My husband say he has too much invested in OO scale and won't be making any change of scale , the worst problem is the hobby is pricing itself out of business
Bad news incoming: Hornby will be hiking up their prices in September, a 10 to 15 % increase is incoming according to TMC.
Seems Hornby has already lined up their prices with their TT scale...
For comparison, you have a Graham Farish LNER 12t fruit van in N for GBP 18,50 at Rails of Sheffield.
Whilst I agree with your assessment that based on raw materials, there shouldn’t be such a minimal price difference, but I don’t think you’re considering economies of scale here. The market for TT is way smaller than OO/HO, so it’ll be the amount made, combined with production costs that will determine the price to consumer.
However, I agree with you that Hornby should keep the discount in place until TT is more established.
Yeah that's absolutely true, agreed 100%... but it's a catch 22 situation... with prices like this, TT may never grow to become as popular as OO. I think Hornby should possibly look to profit a little less from each TT sale in the name of growing the scale and getting it adopted. If they're not in the position to do this due to their financial situation etc, I question whether TT was the right choice for them. Hopefully it still goes places though, as the models themselves are fantastic!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains I agree. It was a huge gamble for Hornby… and you have to go big or go broke with something like this… as you’ve alluded before, and I fear they’re sadly heading for the latter.
I really like the TT stuff, it all seems pretty decent and the scale suits my limited space… but Hornby haven’t done enough to win to me over with choice and price. I would imagine it’s the same for a lot of potential customers.
Fingers crossed they weather this storm.
P.s. love the channel. You do awesome work for the community and for people who just like relaxing content. Like me.
Awesome video Sam's trains I have some exciting news for you Bachmann is going to be making a ho scale Sidney and also the mainland diesels from Thomas and friends
I thought the color had failed on my monitor.
hahaha!
@@SamsTrains00:00:24 - Correction: Single!
Can you make a jnr d51 locomotive video please i love to see it 😀😄😁
Hornby - what are their locos smokin ? Thanks Sam
Great to see the gauge get some more coverage, do think your TT and N gauge layout needs some overhaul, no Gordon’s hill test, no nasty 2nd rad S bend
I would consider myself diddled if I had paid £10 for a Hornby TT wagon!
You could reach out to Pete Waterman and look do some kind of joint video. You love the trains and kit, he is more a modeller. It would be interesting. Just for fun.
6:22 to correct just a little bit the metal molds is stainless steel injection cost between $3,000 - $6,000 for simple molds but can go over $100,000 each depending whats being for and the size of the machine the details in the pieces and how many parts one mold is making which smaller parts allows to make more models not counting the costs of plastic, diecast are metal I don't know how much that be in British money but hopefully this gives a bit of manufacturing info
Years ago I was talking to a fellow who came out with motor mount modification parts for H.O. locomotives and I was taken back by the cost of molds and materials to make the piece.
Hornby probably also prices to spread the cost of models that are sales duds.
Also, dealers have to feel it is a product worth carrying profit wise.
@@AQuietNight yeah it's expensive cause it's not as simple as bowls and spoons
Maybe Hornby might give you sales numbers on some of these models. It doesn't follow every piece sells in large numbers and a lower price also does not guarantee a greater number of units sold will happen.
Oh interesting, can't say I've heard of Morrisons!
I do find it strange that Hornby actively discouraged other manufacturers from making motive power and rolling stock for TT. At some point, unless that policy changes I predict TT’s take-up to stagnate.
Had you noticed that the wagon next to the shunter seems the same as the 7 plank wagon you are reviewing?
Looks identical to me?
@@OwenBudd1 and to me!
Great review, sam. Why is hornby becoming so expensive while not meeting that price value?
Simple answer, they are trying to claw as much money to pay off that huge debt. It seems some people will pay whatever it costs.
Hi Sam I don’t know what’s going on with Hornby but they also stopped the loco’s in the Hornby’s collector club and at £30.00 for a badge, card,magazine and a lanyard , I can’t see the value in that.
Hmm.. looks like the paid TT club is gone totally!
You can still sign up for the free digital magazine but yeah, it's over.
The level of detail and the prices are comparable with Farish N gauge stock and the underframe is decent, though of the wrong design for the mineral wagon. But the bodies are copies of Airfix and Mainline products in 00 scale from about 45 years ago and neither is completely authentic. The van is not an LNER vehicle at all but a GWR design and the mineral has had to be stretched to fit its underframe (correctly sized mineral wagons on the correct underframes have been available for years in N and 00 from the likes of Bachmann, Farish and Oxford). Really, these are Railroad class models compared with some of the other TT wagons which have been designed to a very high standard.
Alright ratings Sam and good review video of these 2 trucks are okay 17:25
Nice simple Wagons 😊🚂🚂🚂
I think expensive is an UNDERSTATEMENT!
That's almost $A50!
I will never agree with you that TT120 should be much cheaper than 00. Companies know their costs of development and production. It is clear that TT is now established and growing.
It uses considerably less plastic and metal. Wether that's offset by them being more fidly is unknown. There's also less packaging .
I think value should be 2. They're well detailed , better than the peco ones. But they're much cheaper.
@@madhatter61dude you have no idea of the real world. Most of the cost involved with producing models is in tooling and manufacturing costs. Just because something is a bit smaller than another thing does not mean that the costs to produce is shrink as a result.
That LNER van looks very like a GWR van! Is it an authentic model or a one moulding fits all respray?
Well with a certain someone having a huge share in hornby, who shall not be named, and their propensity to jack prices up while noticeably dropping the quality of any products i wouldn't expect any price drops or quality increase any time soon
Decent review here Sam, nice to see some more rolling stock in TT scale.
Thanks David - yeah this was fun to look at!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Sam, didn't you say you and Chloe were in Tesco last Remembrance Day? So you didn't go there to get food? That is quite puzzling.
Yes we were - Chloe does shop at Tesco, I'm more of a Morrisons man haha!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Money to burn ?😮😉
Sam, nice videos, and womderful decirated models, but sometimes I have a feeling that your priorities does not really follow the physical requirements for a good model and good performance. I do not know who really needs sprung buffers, but every modeller would like to know for eg. the weigth of the vehicle. ( there are even some standards in NMRA) - unfortunately many manufacturers ignore this fact, and the wagons are to light especially for that type of couplers. The kinematic mechanism is a must for that kind of couplers.
When Hornby announced TT120 I was initially interested enough to check it out, liking the idea of the track gauge matching the model size. The Train sets with the 15% discounts seemed not unreasonable. However, rolling stock prices look expensive, they discouraged other manufacturers from joining in, meaning you were hostage to Hornby. If they wound up discontinuing the range you would be left with a limited niche scale with no development. Then there was the whole cutting-out model shop's stance. For these reasons I decided NO. I have not regretted that decision! & your review has not changed my mind. Granted I am a tight git!
TT is such a nice looking scale.
It does look lovely doesn't it? :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
the wheels are really obnoxiously wide though, breaks the realism with a sledge hammer.
Your videos encouraged me to do a repair on a train that I bought from eBay that was supposed to work. Thanks next one is replaceing a motor. Where can I get parts ?
I use Peter's Spares for replacement parts, but I'm sure there are other retailers too.
I think they are worth the money if you are in the TT hobby, but for a new person in the model hobby is the TT in general definitely a no go. Then you can better go to H0 or N
Anyone know where the standard couplings are so different between scales? (Maybe there's a short video in it, Sam?)
Hey, Sam are you ever going to do another LNER O2/3 Tango Unboxing & Review last one you did was 5 years ago? I just wanna see if the Tango can redeem itself this time.
really nice video must say
Complaint again Sam,that's no way to support these products, it's not as if you have a use by date on rolling stock, yes not perfect, nothing is in this world, it performs ok for 20.00 pounds, try that in Australian dollars mate, so you not doing to bad,you get paid per like,so be a bit more respectful, keep up the good work ok lad,tally ho chap ,need a pint of bitter 👍 😉
"Rubbish Peco one". Hahaha yes you should review some Peco N or OO9 rolling stock, I can assure you they are not better. :)
Pricing, well they will sell less so want a higher price etc - this is however a "that is sounds like your problem" situation. for the end user I suspect the appeal of TT is being able to run larger trains in a smaller space, without going down to N scale
so say what in OO would be six wagons maybe becomes nine in TT, the price for the whole train should be about the same really
LNER van? That looks like a GWR van to me, which are quite distinctive. So not only a bit overpriced, but also imaginary in that livery...
Have you tried Fallout London? Only asking as I saw somewhere you liked the fallout games
haha Chloe and I both love it! We haven't yet, but really want to try it :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Sam, do you know why the HM7000 decoders without sound are still not in stock? Surely there can't be any technical difficulties. I believe Hornby is trying to force people to buy the more expensive sound decoders.
No they are not.
They say it is because they can't get the ICs. I suspect they can't get them for the right price. The guy that is organising this also does HM7000 and given the issues with HM7000, I just think he is "snowed under" with work.
0:24 It’s not simple it’s single!
I think Hornby are coming to terms with a fundamental problem with TT, they can't deliver them to market at a price that the market can accept. I really can't see it having a future, will not be surprised to see them sell the tooling to another manufacturer to raise some cash.
Hornby said they reintroduced TT as a cheaper alternative to 00 to make it more affordable for newcomers. Then they make models at this price. Ridiculous.
If hornby wanted to do something useful they should have entered the 009 market, a scale that is actually growing and popular, and one that has a huge custom model market showing that there is so much demand for the scale that people are willing to make their own models. But obviously Hornby wouldn’t do that as other manufacturers like Bachmann are in 009 and Hornby cant stand competition.
There is a substantial demand for small models with good presence, hence the trend towards small engines in OO like the recent Hawthorn Leslie by Dapol, or the simultaneous attack by Bachmann on On30 and OO9.
Hornby have the TT scale to answer to this trend, but it seems they don't have picked the right marketing strategy with it... Pity, their models are overall good in TT scale.
It would have made sense for them to go into 0 or N, or just start selling American stuff under their name. Both would make far more economical sense, considering how much bigger each respective market is when compared to TT120.
I know it’s been around for a while but you can buy an airfix Cromwell tank in 1/76th scale for £12.99 so what’s that plus the metal wheels and that’s the price these rolling stock items should be. There’s also multiple kits out there for the same price as these wagons and there is almost 6x the plastic in them.
Rip off indeed.
Well it appears from the 1st September they will be 10% more. Looking at the Box van a close comparison would be with the Dapol "chocolate" vans, I think I paid about £14 weathered. What is about TT, soon as you state the obvious you get a ton of abusive messages and justifications why it is so expensive. Hornby are in reality the only supplier of TT120, yes a few bits are made by other suppliers, but why wouldn't Hornby "milk it" for all they can. They are slowly losing the OO battle to better suppliers, so this is all they have left.
did the math, and 25.99 would be a good price for these - if it were in USD. But it's not. It translates to $33.16 in USD, which is almost $10 USD more than it should be. The problem is there's no competition so Hornby feels complacent in knowing they can charge whatever they bloody want, regardless of the quality issues. They know that if you want TT-scale stuff, you HAVE to come to Hornby. You CAN'T go anywhere else. And that's disastrous for the hobby. Competition is absolutely ESSENTIAL. I'll be surprised if TT-scale survives another year at this rate. They HAVE to lower their prices if they want it to survive.
Also that Pico van wanted this video to be all about IT! Because it wasn't getting attention, it decided to throw a fit and malfunction!
I've actually heard of a REAL-LIFE locomotive throwing a tantrum like that before. The Strasburg Railroad here in the US runs steam-powered excursion trains. One of their locomotives, years ago, was apparently very tempermental. If the crews didn't pay enough attention to her over the winter, she would literally throw a fit. She'd be rolling along, smooth as could be, and then some random part would just inexplicably fall off! Just proves that steam locomotives have so much personality that a diesel never will.
Comparing apples with apples, the Peco 7 plank wagons are £19.90. Not much difference
Sam I'm assuming you haven't seen the prices we yanks pay for n scale rolling stock. Talk about frightful. Microtrains,athearn,rapido, and the list goes on. Our three level autoracks go anywhere from 40 to 70 usd
I hope hornby aren't doing what they did with Era 1 get people invested with good products and then raise the prices after some time to gouge out some money
Price is what killed tri ang TT scale and Hornby have not learned from tri ang. TT should be at least 20% cheaper but they’re not which is why I wouldn’t bother investing in TT scale
The coulongs are still ridiculously huge. ..and hornby hsve just made the rapido and sccurascske. Wagkns good vskue
Hornby are a ship with no captain and no rudder
Why do you not read back your typing to check for silly spelling mistakes?
The price of Hornby's TT wares are really hurting the adoption rate of the scale, they really need to reassess what they are doing with the scale. If they don't it will be another costly mistake on their end.
The couplings on Hornby are generally very good. Peco aren't good and are poor quality. I'd recommend changing them.
They're nice wagons but over priced, probably even more so after Sept 1st 24.
9:13 The sides of the 7-plank are bowed inwards, surely not a good look
They are very interesting piece of rolling stock Sam, but I don't think I'll be getting any.
Cheers Jasper & Willow
Thank you! That's fair enough - thanks for looking anyway!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
So how about an apples to apples price comparison. You seem to refuse to compare to other TT120 manufacturers. The cheapest wagon from Piko is about £30!
Awesome video today Sam I agree with you about the price
I still think TT120 is a white elephant.
I run a used model shop. I surveyed my customers last week about the scales they model. Of over 200 responses at time of writing.
I have more customers that model, On30, G scale, 16mm, US N Scale, Z scale and even NG7. All more popular than are modelling TT120 currently.
I don’t want it to fail, it’s a great scale. But it’s really not getting established currently.
Thank god it is you and not your AI counterpart!
hahaha thank you!!
It's a bit stupid to compare the bloater van which is of a different scale to these 2 wagons, I won't lie
Sam, you obviously hate Hornby's TT range (probably everything Hornby does too !) so why do you have to review it ? Just stick to your OO ! Oh and by the way...sorry to inform you but the TT 120 scale is doing very well and will just get more and more popular as time goes by :)
Not at all - almost all of my TT reviews are positive with great scores… why do you think that? And what are you basing your claims of TT’s success on? Please share your source. Reading Hornby’s recent annual report suggested a significant decline in TT revenue over the second year, so I’d be interested in whether your claims are based on data or just a feeling you have.
I think this puts into question, what would Sam do if he was to 3d print tt equipment?
What does 3D printing have to do with it? There's no way you can use 3D printing to produce a piece of TT (or even OO) rolling stock with a decent amount of detail.
@@kc5402 have you seen Sam’s series on designing a oo problem class, you can 3d print a lot more details than you think, especially if you have a resin printer and take the time to CAD a good looking model
@@kc5402honestly with resin printers you can. Difficult part is getting a paint finish up to commercial standards
@@kc5402 his resin printers shouldn't have a problem matching the moulding on the Hornby wagons. I've seen some extremely impressive results. Sam might even be able to get the model to have sprung buffers.
@@1471SirFrederickBanbury lol, just wait, now that you’ve said that he’ll try and print them for his next project
Nice review sam
1:02 £25 for that Sam!!!
haha I know!!
Cool
Well, you keep on persisting on price and size, but - as has been commented so often - they're not correlated at all whatsoever, in terms of O, OO, H0, N and TT. A smaller price for a smaller size is something you've made up really. In fact, smaller in the model trains world usually means a higher price. You agreeing or not, it's a given. H just brought TT out to serve potential customers with smaller space, nothing more. Are these worth 25 GBP (~30 Euro)? Absolutely not; quite overpriced. 20 GBP (~23 Euro) is perhaps more like it. However, these wagons don't match brands like Fleischmann (Roco N scale these days), Tillig, Piko, Kato and Arnold in the slightest in terms of fidelity / quality. H really must do better with these. Cheerio.
If one plots the price on the vertical axis, and size (scale) on the horizontal axis, there’s probably a local minima around HO/OO scale. It’s not so small that details are fragile and difficult to machine, cast, or injection mold, but not so big it requires much more material to make (as it’s an increase in volume, or distance cubed). To use a practical example, drill bits go down to #80 which is a very tiny drill bit, and quite fragile - you really need a drill press and a suitable chuck to use these small drill bits (from #61 to #80), but you can get them fairly easily, and are handy for drilling holes for wire grab irons in HO or OO scale. Go down to TT or N scale though, and even a #80 may be too big if you want scale-accurate wire sizes for those grab irons, and the corresponding holes. Go down to Z scale, and you’re pretty much stuck with molded-on grab irons. Not only will you have difficulty making a hole small enough, you’ll have problems finding wire that’s stiff enough. Going up in scale eases the tooling/machining problem, but requires more raw materials to make (like 3D printer filament, or resin, or plastic pellets for injection molding.)
It’d be interesting to plot the price for a model of a given (common) prototype - such as an EMD SD 40-2, or a British A4 - in N (1:160), TT (1:120), HO (1:87), OO (1:76), S (1:64 I think…), O (1:48), and G (about 1:20) and see what the price really is. That being said, size isn’t the only factor; scale desirability factors in too.
sam may i request a review of some n scale thomas models they are still here you pick what you like first🙂
Troublesome Trucks and Vans!
I think comparing Hornby TT prices to EFE OO prices is a bit unfair on Hornby.
EFE is more of a reasonably/budgetish priced brand in OO (or at least that's the impression I get), while Hornby in either scale is more of a premium brand (Railroad range excluded).
A fairer comparison in terms of price between the scales would have been to use Bachmann or Rapido for OO, as they're more premium brands and Rapidos vans are north of £30 RRP.
Just my take there.
Not really - that "budget" model from EFE rail had far more details and features than these did! I picked the EFE model because it's a good example of what can be achieved for this approximate price point. I agree that Rapido's vans aren't worth £30, which is why I didn't use them to illustrate this point!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
These wagons look nice but they are quite expensive which makes them quite a rip-off like you said Sam. We already know that Hornby is not doing well financially but this is not the proper way to save their company by stupidly jacking up the price. If Hornby continues to jack up their prices, they really will go bankrupt and go out of business soon
Let's put this in perspective. If you bought just four of these vent vans you would have spent £100; and Hornby will have all the research and drawings for this already, just needing to produce simplified tooling. I run a 1950s Austin Healey and I can buy an engine water pump for less than _one_ of these wagons and that's a similarly limited market.
Hornby seem intent on pricing themselves out of existance
At least they dont do it the usual modern business way with giving away god stuff and services, getting a monopol and then getting more and more expensive or inconvenient, like e.g. Amazon, Google/RUclips and Netflix. You know what you go into if you decide to go TT, so applause for that, even tho the prices seem very high to me. At least not "5$ per wagon but 2 years later it is 25 when you have no choice but continue your hobby".
A rather unrealistic mixture of Eras, I'm afraid. The new wagons will look fine behind the upcoming J50 locomotive, but it seems almost impossible to build an authentic TT120 layout, given the current range. At least the old Triang TT3 models were all in the then-current BR liveries! The prices are, as you say, way too high...and I wouldn't bet on the TT120 range lasting more than a year or two more.
You could print these, why buy Sam??????
Kinda shocking that Hornby are pricing themselves out of the market with these given they are trying to get a new scale started. These look nice enough but they definitely aren’t worth the price. Why did Hornby get rid of the club discount by the way? Don’t you have to pay to be in the club?? I don’t agree that people would go for OO over TT because of the silly pricing though, as the main advantage to TT is that it can fit in a smaller space. Personally I see N Gauge as more of a threat to TT.
Yeah - I think the prices are getting a bit prohibitive now, but I suppose they can't afford to reduce their margins on this stuff given their financial situation... hopefully this doesn't hamper adoption too much!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains I suppose this is true. Really though pricing yourself out of the market isn’t going to help you with a financial situation, especially if you’re trying to get a new scale started…
@@modelrailfan37 Plenty of companies have gone down that route, it normally ends in tears.
@@cbrooks122000 I figured that much. If there’s a competing product that is cheaper and equally good (sometimes better!) then nobody is going to buy the overpriced one just because a company is struggling financially…