Hey Folks! Looks like there's some confusion about the application of this information for movers. All traditional coaching- almost everything you were likely exposed to as a kid, is foundationally based on this traditional, information processing view of perception & movement from psychology. In that model, you sense the environment (badly), fix the bad stimulus, cognitively process your options and choose one from a 'menu' of action possibilities, that's been stored in memory based on previous practice (then essentially compare and contrast between what's happened when you've done those actions before and what's happening now and what you can do to adjust it. What I want you guys to think about as you watch this interview is first: does the fundamental idea of ecological psychology make sense, and do I agree with it? If not, no worries, continue as planned, but the more you listen to these guys, and read the literature, the more I think you'll agree with them- but I encourage you to be skeptical. Don't just take these new ideas at face value- really engage and grapple with them. If you do agree with the base premise though, then it should make sense that we would need to restructure a significant amount of our practice and teaching based on this information, and I suggest that you go all the way 'down the rabbit hole' of ecological psych (starting with their book would be a good area of introduction) & ecological dynamics. Out with the 'repitition is the mother of all skill development', the 4 stages of competence, and the overly isolative drills. Huge insights and improvements will come to those who take this route, especially those involved with more complex, open skill sports, and for teachers. My next video will go into this subject in much more depth applied to BJJ.
I subscribed to you a while back when I first discovered the Movement Culture because I really liked your perspective and practice of movement. At the time, I didn't know much about what perception & "movement" really was, it just felt intuitive and that there was truth to what you were saying in comparison with the popular understanding of fitness and exercise. Fast forward to now, I've been reading a lot of papers and books on the interesect between neuroscience and movement, and I stumbled upon embodied cognition. Crazy how all that digging took me full circle back to your channel! Currrently reading Annie Murphy Paul's "The Extended Mind," touches on a lot of what was covered in this conversation. Great stuff and super underrated, I feel like I should be paying for this!
Thank-you for this excellent chance to hear from two people we don't see / hear much from and (imho) desperately need more of :) I have been applying Ecological Dynamics / Skill Acquisition work to horse training for about a decade now (though I started my Eco Psych path based on applying Eleanor's work to teaching computer science. I had no idea it applied to movement until I stumbled on Rob Gray's podcast).
Hey Bren! Thanks for taking the time to make this video, I know many will have their difficulties with it as it’s very objectionable to how we view reality, although I think it may only scratch the surface. Have you seen the works of Bernardo Kastrup or Donald Hoffman? It feels like it’s a natural progression.
Contrary to some viewers i really liked this type of content, yes it is not a tutorial, yes it is abstract, but this is what it makes this amazing, it is somethinng essential to the point of changing how you view the world, I really don't get how people are asking how this impact how they train or how they learn new movement stuff. It is suposed to change how you approach your interaction with the world, so either the video didn't explain enough or the viewer didn't actually understood or digested the idea enough to the point of himself applying the idea. I didn't agree on a lot of things they said, mostly for me because they atrempt to propose a paradigm and a lot of philosophical problems appeared to me while they were talking so it didnt showed me enough why i should accept this paradigm of mind/body over others it just appeals to some things that doesn't resonate to me, maybe is something that the book would solve, but in the same time a lot of things were really interesting, maybe it is a good way of thinking about your body/mind in this context of interaction with the environment, but we do a lot more than that and i think it falls short on those ends. Anyway we have a lot of pratical tutorials on youtube, even tho yours are amazing, it would be nice to see more of this type of content.
Thanks for this Bren, I’m really trying hard to go down the ecological psychology path do u derby and motor learning as well. I’m curious as to your thoughts on the idea of the Bayesian brain and predictive processing, because my understanding is that they contradict a lot of the ideas of ecological psychology, but are commonly used ideas in the world of pain science. Thanks for your time and attention.
Isolate, integrate, improvise is nearly the definition of linear pedagogy. Further, almost all of his training methods extract moves out of the context of their environment- something that we call task decomposition in ecological dynamics. Ido’s methods are fundamentally IP based, there are sprinkles of understanding in some of his posts of the weaknesses of moves and techniques, that doesn’t mean he understands or has read anything about the ecological approach.
@@BrenTeachesMovementwow i wonder if eco would just accelerate all the skill acquisition and undermine his whole approach to things, it just seems like so much of what he teaches can be reverse engineered with the right environment.
A question, how does ecological psychology relate to the "Palo-Alto" school of therapy (that of Paul Watzlawick, Jay Haley, Gregory Bateson and al.)? With roots in systems science, cybernetics and ecological theory They see the human behaviour as an adaptation to a certain context(s) (with different degrees of learning, or adaptation, because it is not a mechanical process). I've always believed that human movement is a behaviour similar to all others, and that it is an adaptation to a context, but never thought of it in terms of actual psychological mechanisms. very interesting!
I *think* I understand what is being said here. But I don’t understand how to apply it to make me a better learner, or a better mover. Say if I’m bad at darts, and I keep hitting 2 inches to the left… they say here and we all agree that aiming 2 inches to the right isn’t how you get better. So how do I incorporate this practice to help me learn and train better, faster?
Anyone who knows more than me or disagrees let me know! I am far from an expert. From my (limited) understanding, in this example one of the things you could do is increase the variability of your practice. You could try throwing heavier darts, lighter darts, from closer up, and then farther away. Instead of trying to optimize the throwing of your exact dart from that exact distance you build up your ability to see and act on the affordance of throwing that dart. For BJJ or sport contexts that are already highly variable, adding in more constraints and staying away from rote drilling is the way to build upon the context of ecological psychology.
It’s funny that nowadays scientists proof what was in some spiritual traditions common knowledge. Alan watts talked about the same thing about 50 years ago. There’s no such thing as a thing 😂
Are you suggesting ecological psychologists are responsible for colonialism? lol. This is a description of fundamental perception and movement, of course there should be overlap with ‘indigenous ways of knowing’ however to say that that’s all this is, or that indigenous cultures already knew ALL of this is in my view a basic excuse to disregard this incredibly rich and interesting science.
@BrenVez I'm not suggesting that they are responsible for colonialism. But a lot of science is just "rediscovering" what people already know. We discount indigenous knowledge bc it doesn't fit the disembodied western worldview. What I am suggesting is that we acknowledge this knowledge already exists and for most of human history was normative concuiousness. The fact that this overlaps with indigenous traditions the world over should support the validity of the Theory. Ecological psychology is fundamentally anti colonial, and I use it in my practice with indigenous youth. But the reason I like it is because it sees the world as alive. In the same way that our traditional teachings tell us is true. I get why your first thought was to be defensive. Eco gets a lot of ridicule. But that's partially because it's not in line with the western colonial mindset.
Good. I agree for the most part, and if you haven’t already, you would really enjoy anthropology and/as education by Tim ingold. He starts with a very elegant critique of disregarding the knowledge of different cultures and their different means of transmission of knowledge because it doesn’t fit with our worldview. Still, I disagree with your original claim that this is just a new description of old knowledge, (though obviously indigenous cultures were much closer to the idea of direct perception). We call it REsearch for a reason. It’s incredibly important to repeatedly validate our ideas and amass evidence for and against them, no matter how old they are. And if we discover an old idea reincarnated through a new lens, how is that not a new, important, and interesting discovery? What work is it that you do and how do you use eco for it?
@BrenVez I never said it was "just" anything. That's your defensiveness coming through again. What I'm saying is that eco psych is western science starting to piece together what indigenous peoples the world over already know. That the world is alive. They just don't describe it with the same words or way science does. The scientists aren't reincarnating anything because that would imply that the that knowledge base died. These traditions have been alive and well. These traditions should be acknowledged. It's only a '"revolutionary discovery" because colonial systems dont give a fuck about embodiment. It being revolutionary is a sad state of affairs for the state of the world we live in. My aim was to challenge you and others to consider a two eyed seeing lense that values both scientific methods and indigenous (embodied) ways of knowing. I run non profit youth grappling programs for indigenous youth. Primarily in my home community. I use cla and stuff in this context. I suspect that the youtube comments aren't a great place to continue this discussion without talking past each other.
To the point. (Euclid) Postulate 5: Given a line and a point not on the line, exactly one line can be drawn through the point that is parallel to the line. Point: A point is something that has no part Parallel lines (Postulate 5) can join two points, by constructing two chiral moebius strips. Moebius strips, which each have one edge. By joining those two edges a body is created that has no edge. However, this creates an exception at a single point. That point however is not defined by Euclid's definition of a point. The point exists on two lines, both of which are/were parallel lines on a flat page. The human eye is constructed as a klein bottle, which is defined by the above body defined above. Note 1. The "information" gathered the human eye passes through the Euclidian point defined above. Note 2. The human hands (hand heart emoji) form the same "point" as the junction of two chiral moebius strips. Newtons third law is recovered by sliding an object around a moebius strip through 360 degrees.
Interesting. But at the same time meh. No real practical tips for the viewers. A handstand tutorial is more nutritious even though its not as academic and complex/abstract.
I don't think we need more tutorials either. There is already too much consuming, too little doing for the vast majority. I agree the average viewer probably won't take much from this video, though.
Appreciate the feedback for practical feedback for you guys- I'll make a big effort for that going forward. That said, this is a revolutionary paradigm shift for how we understand movement and perception that has led to a complete restructuring of teaching for many of the worlds best coaches in various sports and disciplines. We need to accurately understand what is going on to make educated and effective decisions about teaching and learning, and this interview is a great appetizer for that understanding (and their book is even better to start going further). In my next video, the ecological dynamics for bjj documentary, I'll describe the application of this knowledge in depth.
@@BrenTeachesMovement Of course for you this knowledge is amazing. However, for the average viewer interested in movement I don't think there will be much most people take away from a 1.5 hour podcast about psychology. They want to learn about movement. Imo the average viewer should find a good teacher and start doing movement! Your work is amazing Bren. Don't be too hard on yourself!
@@maxd1744 I think the point of why this video IS relevant is because the field of movement itself is a reframing of the popular understanding of how kinesiology, psychology, philosophy, medicine, neuroscience, and many other disciplines are not separate but actually one in the same. The "psychology" being talked about here isn't actually psychology but a paradigm/theory that unites these fields under the umbrella of movement. Meaning movement isn't just alternative forms of exercise that aren't bodybuilding and anything else that fits under the umbrella of what people think of when they hear fitness. Movement is learning a new language, movement is playing an instrument, movement is navigating a conversation, movement is even thinking itself. I would argue this may be the most relevant video he has put out as it relates to learning about movement. Less practical sure, but this is the groundwork/concept from which the practice of movement is derived from. And if you have a good understanding of that, you yourself, even without a teacher, can use movement beyond just exercise to reshape your life in a fulfilling & healthy way that is more holistic & encompassing than what the traditional theories can offer.
Hey Folks! Looks like there's some confusion about the application of this information for movers. All traditional coaching- almost everything you were likely exposed to as a kid, is foundationally based on this traditional, information processing view of perception & movement from psychology. In that model, you sense the environment (badly), fix the bad stimulus, cognitively process your options and choose one from a 'menu' of action possibilities, that's been stored in memory based on previous practice (then essentially compare and contrast between what's happened when you've done those actions before and what's happening now and what you can do to adjust it.
What I want you guys to think about as you watch this interview is first: does the fundamental idea of ecological psychology make sense, and do I agree with it? If not, no worries, continue as planned, but the more you listen to these guys, and read the literature, the more I think you'll agree with them- but I encourage you to be skeptical. Don't just take these new ideas at face value- really engage and grapple with them.
If you do agree with the base premise though, then it should make sense that we would need to restructure a significant amount of our practice and teaching based on this information, and I suggest that you go all the way 'down the rabbit hole' of ecological psych (starting with their book would be a good area of introduction) & ecological dynamics. Out with the 'repitition is the mother of all skill development', the 4 stages of competence, and the overly isolative drills. Huge insights and improvements will come to those who take this route, especially those involved with more complex, open skill sports, and for teachers. My next video will go into this subject in much more depth applied to BJJ.
I subscribed to you a while back when I first discovered the Movement Culture because I really liked your perspective and practice of movement. At the time, I didn't know much about what perception & "movement" really was, it just felt intuitive and that there was truth to what you were saying in comparison with the popular understanding of fitness and exercise. Fast forward to now, I've been reading a lot of papers and books on the interesect between neuroscience and movement, and I stumbled upon embodied cognition. Crazy how all that digging took me full circle back to your channel! Currrently reading Annie Murphy Paul's "The Extended Mind," touches on a lot of what was covered in this conversation. Great stuff and super underrated, I feel like I should be paying for this!
Thanks for interviewing us and for posting this.
Thank-you for this excellent chance to hear from two people we don't see / hear much from and (imho) desperately need more of :) I have been applying Ecological Dynamics / Skill Acquisition work to horse training for about a decade now (though I started my Eco Psych path based on applying Eleanor's work to teaching computer science. I had no idea it applied to movement until I stumbled on Rob Gray's podcast).
can you expound more or where do I see what Eleanor's work in teaching computer science
Hey Bren! Thanks for taking the time to make this video, I know many will have their difficulties with it as it’s very objectionable to how we view reality, although I think it may only scratch the surface.
Have you seen the works of Bernardo Kastrup or Donald Hoffman? It feels like it’s a natural progression.
Thanks Bren, interesting topic and it's good to see you online again.
Contrary to some viewers i really liked this type of content, yes it is not a tutorial, yes it is abstract, but this is what it makes this amazing, it is somethinng essential to the point of changing how you view the world, I really don't get how people are asking how this impact how they train or how they learn new movement stuff. It is suposed to change how you approach your interaction with the world, so either the video didn't explain enough or the viewer didn't actually understood or digested the idea enough to the point of himself applying the idea.
I didn't agree on a lot of things they said, mostly for me because they atrempt to propose a paradigm and a lot of philosophical problems appeared to me while they were talking so it didnt showed me enough why i should accept this paradigm of mind/body over others it just appeals to some things that doesn't resonate to me, maybe is something that the book would solve, but in the same time a lot of things were really interesting, maybe it is a good way of thinking about your body/mind in this context of interaction with the environment, but we do a lot more than that and i think it falls short on those ends.
Anyway we have a lot of pratical tutorials on youtube, even tho yours are amazing, it would be nice to see more of this type of content.
Love this!
Thanks Danny! Liked your video with them as well :)
Thanks for this Bren,
I’m really trying hard to go down the ecological psychology path do u derby and motor learning as well. I’m curious as to your thoughts on the idea of the Bayesian brain and predictive processing, because my understanding is that they contradict a lot of the ideas of ecological psychology, but are commonly used ideas in the world of pain science.
Thanks for your time and attention.
This was great, checking out the book now. I am curious to know if Ido was aware of ecological psychology or if he has an IP theory
@@horseheadnebula89 Ido Portal is 100% eco. He may not be aware, but it's clear he is based on his models.
Isolate, integrate, improvise is nearly the definition of linear pedagogy. Further, almost all of his training methods extract moves out of the context of their environment- something that we call task decomposition in ecological dynamics. Ido’s methods are fundamentally IP based, there are sprinkles of understanding in some of his posts of the weaknesses of moves and techniques, that doesn’t mean he understands or has read anything about the ecological approach.
@@BrenTeachesMovementwow i wonder if eco would just accelerate all the skill acquisition and undermine his whole approach to things, it just seems like so much of what he teaches can be reverse engineered with the right environment.
A question, how does ecological psychology relate to the "Palo-Alto" school of therapy (that of Paul Watzlawick, Jay Haley, Gregory Bateson and al.)? With roots in systems science, cybernetics and ecological theory They see the human behaviour as an adaptation to a certain context(s) (with different degrees of learning, or adaptation, because it is not a mechanical process).
I've always believed that human movement is a behaviour similar to all others, and that it is an adaptation to a context, but never thought of it in terms of actual psychological mechanisms. very interesting!
“I do not move myself, I myself move” Gareth Evans
Also, many others, Bruce Lee about punching, wu wei. Great lesson. Needs at least a lifetime of practice.
I *think* I understand what is being said here. But I don’t understand how to apply it to make me a better learner, or a better mover.
Say if I’m bad at darts, and I keep hitting 2 inches to the left… they say here and we all agree that aiming 2 inches to the right isn’t how you get better. So how do I incorporate this practice to help me learn and train better, faster?
Anyone who knows more than me or disagrees let me know! I am far from an expert.
From my (limited) understanding, in this example one of the things you could do is increase the variability of your practice. You could try throwing heavier darts, lighter darts, from closer up, and then farther away. Instead of trying to optimize the throwing of your exact dart from that exact distance you build up your ability to see and act on the affordance of throwing that dart.
For BJJ or sport contexts that are already highly variable, adding in more constraints and staying away from rote drilling is the way to build upon the context of ecological psychology.
It’s funny that nowadays scientists proof what was in some spiritual traditions common knowledge. Alan watts talked about the same thing about 50 years ago. There’s no such thing as a thing 😂
the jonny clayton haircut
What is your opinion on animal Flow?
Why dont you take this a step further, apply a two eyed seeing lens, and see how this is a western description of indigenous ways of knowing?
Are you suggesting ecological psychologists are responsible for colonialism? lol. This is a description of fundamental perception and movement, of course there should be overlap with ‘indigenous ways of knowing’ however to say that that’s all this is, or that indigenous cultures already knew ALL of this is in my view a basic excuse to disregard this incredibly rich and interesting science.
@BrenVez I'm not suggesting that they are responsible for colonialism. But a lot of science is just "rediscovering" what people already know. We discount indigenous knowledge bc it doesn't fit the disembodied western worldview. What I am suggesting is that we acknowledge this knowledge already exists and for most of human history was normative concuiousness. The fact that this overlaps with indigenous traditions the world over should support the validity of the Theory.
Ecological psychology is fundamentally anti colonial, and I use it in my practice with indigenous youth. But the reason I like it is because it sees the world as alive. In the same way that our traditional teachings tell us is true.
I get why your first thought was to be defensive. Eco gets a lot of ridicule. But that's partially because it's not in line with the western colonial mindset.
Good. I agree for the most part, and if you haven’t already, you would really enjoy anthropology and/as education by Tim ingold. He starts with a very elegant critique of disregarding the knowledge of different cultures and their different means of transmission of knowledge because it doesn’t fit with our worldview. Still, I disagree with your original claim that this is just a new description of old knowledge, (though obviously indigenous cultures were much closer to the idea of direct perception).
We call it REsearch for a reason. It’s incredibly important to repeatedly validate our ideas and amass evidence for and against them, no matter how old they are. And if we discover an old idea reincarnated through a new lens, how is that not a new, important, and interesting discovery?
What work is it that you do and how do you use eco for it?
@BrenVez I never said it was "just" anything. That's your defensiveness coming through again. What I'm saying is that eco psych is western science starting to piece together what indigenous peoples the world over already know. That the world is alive. They just don't describe it with the same words or way science does.
The scientists aren't reincarnating anything because that would imply that the that knowledge base died. These traditions have been alive and well. These traditions should be acknowledged. It's only a '"revolutionary discovery" because colonial systems dont give a fuck about embodiment. It being revolutionary is a sad state of affairs for the state of the world we live in. My aim was to challenge you and others to consider a two eyed seeing lense that values both scientific methods and indigenous (embodied) ways of knowing.
I run non profit youth grappling programs for indigenous youth. Primarily in my home community. I use cla and stuff in this context.
I suspect that the youtube comments aren't a great place to continue this discussion without talking past each other.
To the point. (Euclid)
Postulate 5: Given a line and a point not on the line, exactly one line can be drawn through the point that is parallel to the line.
Point: A point is something that has no part
Parallel lines (Postulate 5) can join two points, by constructing two chiral moebius strips.
Moebius strips, which each have one edge.
By joining those two edges a body is created that has no edge.
However, this creates an exception at a single point.
That point however is not defined by Euclid's definition of a point.
The point exists on two lines, both of which are/were parallel lines on a flat page.
The human eye is constructed as a klein bottle, which is defined by the above body defined above.
Note 1. The "information" gathered the human eye passes through the Euclidian point defined above.
Note 2. The human hands (hand heart emoji) form the same "point" as the junction of two chiral moebius strips.
Newtons third law is recovered by sliding an object around a moebius strip through 360 degrees.
Interesting. But at the same time meh. No real practical tips for the viewers. A handstand tutorial is more nutritious even though its not as academic and complex/abstract.
I don't think we need more tutorials either. There is already too much consuming, too little doing for the vast majority.
I agree the average viewer probably won't take much from this video, though.
Appreciate the feedback for practical feedback for you guys- I'll make a big effort for that going forward. That said, this is a revolutionary paradigm shift for how we understand movement and perception that has led to a complete restructuring of teaching for many of the worlds best coaches in various sports and disciplines. We need to accurately understand what is going on to make educated and effective decisions about teaching and learning, and this interview is a great appetizer for that understanding (and their book is even better to start going further). In my next video, the ecological dynamics for bjj documentary, I'll describe the application of this knowledge in depth.
@@BrenTeachesMovement Understood. I look forward to the next one, and thanks for all your uploads. I always look forward to them.
@@BrenTeachesMovement Of course for you this knowledge is amazing. However, for the average viewer interested in movement I don't think there will be much most people take away from a 1.5 hour podcast about psychology. They want to learn about movement.
Imo the average viewer should find a good teacher and start doing movement!
Your work is amazing Bren. Don't be too hard on yourself!
@@maxd1744 I think the point of why this video IS relevant is because the field of movement itself is a reframing of the popular understanding of how kinesiology, psychology, philosophy, medicine, neuroscience, and many other disciplines are not separate but actually one in the same. The "psychology" being talked about here isn't actually psychology but a paradigm/theory that unites these fields under the umbrella of movement. Meaning movement isn't just alternative forms of exercise that aren't bodybuilding and anything else that fits under the umbrella of what people think of when they hear fitness. Movement is learning a new language, movement is playing an instrument, movement is navigating a conversation, movement is even thinking itself. I would argue this may be the most relevant video he has put out as it relates to learning about movement. Less practical sure, but this is the groundwork/concept from which the practice of movement is derived from. And if you have a good understanding of that, you yourself, even without a teacher, can use movement beyond just exercise to reshape your life in a fulfilling & healthy way that is more holistic & encompassing than what the traditional theories can offer.
The external ears are moebius strips. Hence hearing is enhanced by the hands, which are moebius strips as described in another comment.
Light enters the fascia system, which is a fiber optic system directly connecting all tissues including muscle.