It's strange because support has become a very popular role, but there are genuinely so few people that actually know how to SUPPORT. They either healbot or dps with very little in between.
i very much agree. a lot of the support only players I've seen have this issue. i don't mind dps supports and i prefer they do damage but also heal people if they get low. don't constantly heal if someone is only missing 10% health but you have to keep people alive. i think a lot of OW's problems are that people do not know how to play. something I think PVE could have solved but they missed their chance at that.
Yup I’m a sup main myself I find it difficult sometimes to look away from my team or they just explode but with two tanks it’s gives me a chance to squeeze out a good chunk of damage in between healing my dps that want to run away and my tanks
They are just mirroring the design of the support heroes. Overwatch "support" is broadly just healing and protection, and the most common trade-offs for a hero healing less is dueling potential, ranged pressure or self-survivability. A flexible mindset just doesn't click for some people because of the lack of "enabling" in the gameplay loop. They'll chase kills too much when in "damage mode" and will ignore damage opportunities when in "keep ppl alive" mode.
I mean in metal ranks supports get flamed for daring to speed boost as lucio while rein randomly decides to pin the wall behind the enemy team. People instantly die without constant healing so yeah a lot don't really learn to do anything but healbot.
I think another issue is that tank players that don't know how to not feed are demanding a lot of healing. And it takes a strong will as a support player to let them die and learn their lesson, and most just healbot, which is a Sisyphian task
this is true and something i noticed when classic mode was out. a lot of people didn't know how to play around their abilities and timing them. the tanks would be super passive because they didn't understand how to time jumping in as winston with bubble and using zarya bubble to survive. i think OW2 has unintentionally made players bad at the game because they rely so heavily on healing and immortalities. it was sort of an eye opening moment to realize that and why even players at my own rank didn't understand what to do lots of times.
@@arinrobinson3898 The amount of bad habits that ow2 and s9 changes people got will be much more noticeable when 6v6 gets to competitive mode, and when (or if) s9 changes will be reverted. Interesting thing is that tank playstyle got rug pulled, support were babied, and some dps were molded, tracers, genjis, junkrats never been so good, modern players of these characters are insane now, diamond genji now purely mechanically would easily belong in gm few years ago
@@dsvd4727 season 9 was bad overall for sure. making good players great and great players gods hurt the risk reward system overwatch had finely tuned. i'm convinced that season 9 was only popular because 1. stuff was dying again finally and 2. lucio and moira were meta for a bit. now it feels like the same old OW again and people are bored. they tried some bold changes but unintentionally made players worse at playing the game IMO. I think 6v6 once again helps separate the good players from the bad better. whether or not the community likes that or not is another story. I think it just plays better from a competitive shooter standpoint but idk. maybe i'm too hardcore.
@@arinrobinson3898 Yeah, s9 wasn't torn to shreds only because it made dps viable again, but then they still decided to juggle dps passive more in pursuit of nonexistent equilibirum where supports simultaneously don't feel "helpless" to flankers or oneshots and are not too egregiously overpowered, when the demands of dps and tank roles are quite simple - buttons doing damage
@@arinrobinson3898 I wouldn't say people getting worse at the game was unintentional; they keep making changes that lower the value of various skills that aren't just aim, such as people respawning in groups etc. So many bad habits are rewarded now, and I hate it.
The thing is 6v6 doesn’t have issues team 4 does. Map and hero design is not the fault of format. High sustain metas have been in each format so format isn’t the issue. Support power creep and heal reliance is what makes flaws even more pronounced.
In fairness, 5v5 and not planning ahead together are the issue (they literally were caused to brainstorm ideas to fix tanking in 5v5 in the announcement stream when Super asked how they'd deal with the pressure and raw incoming damage for the tank player and then after that, the pro playtest had massive feedback that support needed work as it was free food for dps) and in the lead up to release, they only really addressed the tank issue by making them into super tanks while supports got basically nothing but a few abilities getting minor burst heal buffs. So they scrapped for ideas after the exodus, opting for sustain creep despite literally nobody asking for it.
One of the reasons I stopped playing MANY years ago (but continue to follow the content when I'm bored) is because the team straight up can't balance, or refuses to do so because they thrive on an ecosystem of "this patch made your favorite hero meta, come play our game! It's totally better now :)" when all it usually is is power creep and forcing certain heroes to be meta with nonsense balance decisions. It really shows how little they understand the problem when Ana has been meta for like 90% of the game's life span in various formats and metas but they refuse to tone down anti, and then make all the other supports in line with her so they "feel impactful".
This test made me realise how much i love ball. Hampter is like so much fun even when the enemy team goes like sombra, sojourn and any character that counters me its so much better than 5v5. I also love how hero design shines so much more in this mode. I hope the devs actually let this gameplay stay or just replace 5v5 cause honestly its the most fun ive had on ows in a while.
It's a lot of fun when there's more chaos. Ball feels way more fun to play against too. I think overall it's just a massive improvement. Even if it's still got it's flaws.
been bingeing a lot of your videos, its really refreshing hearing someone articulate/talk about and hammer down the issues this games has (ridiculous support power creep, dps not having much agency anymore, tank being unfun, the constant babying of the support role) and not be super toxic about it. i can listen to you talk about this game for hours truly. and if no one has told you yet your voice is really soothing
Thank you! I really appreciate you watching all my videos. I know I don't have the best production quality but I just really love talking about games so I'm happy people are finding my videos interesting and unique from other creators. I really could talk about gaming for hours, it would not even be hard. And I used to stream on twitch a lot more and some people said they liked my voice for some reason and I'm glad you think so cause I know i tend to ramble on in long videos so i'm sure it helps haha.
The support part you addressed is interesting. In 5v5, at first it felt like support was free food. It really was, too...they'd been warned 6 whole months prior. This caused a massive exodus of support players in S1 and fucked queue times more than RQ had done in OW1 for like a week before they removed basically all MM rules and lied about it. And the new hero was boring/generic, clearly catered to attract DPS players. Eventually this issue led to a need for obscene sustain which was always going to cause problems. After S9, though, metas for supports have been healbot or be a DPS with no inbetween; it's felt like agency and carry potential was lost in favour of doling out sustain and attracting DPS players since the beginning. The DPS passive and HP pools caused so many problems while even making those it sought to deal with worse and at the same time broke the dps role by widening the gap between the meta and non-meta heroes. And the worst part is that they tested this exact passive in an alpha with pros and streamers before the first closed beta for OW2 and the feedback was overwhelmingly that it was terrible for the game. In the 6v6 test, the DPS passive and healthpools still fucking with breakpoints do make support feel like they need to heal more, but frankly, as someone who was always a flex player that leaned toward support? It felt so much better than the game has for years despite this. Every single decision suddenly matters; if i choose to heal the wrong target, my team is punished, if I choose to go for some damage or an aggressive play at the wrong time, my team is punished. If I make smart plays, my team benefits. This is what I loved about Overwatch. My choices matter in this mode despite it being blatantly set up to fail. The last 2 years, choices have just...not felt important since around S3 I think (can't recall exactly) but problems were blatant long before that. Atm, though. Marvel Rivals is scratching the itch as a competitive player who truly loved Overwatch (and I still do, if we're talking what it used to be) Not only that, but they're not scared to make heroes with interesting kits that are niche; most OW2 heroes have been so painfully generic with the exceptions of Ramattra and Life Weaver. At least JQ is cool despite the basic kit.
"Every single decision suddenly matters; if i choose to heal the wrong target, my team is punished, if I choose to go for some damage or an aggressive play at the wrong time, my team is punished. If I make smart plays, my team benefits. This is what I loved about Overwatch. My choices matter in this mode despite it being blatantly set up to fail." I love the way you wrote this. games and their replay ability depend on making you feel like you could have had an impact. 6v6 in all it's flaws still makes you feel like every decision you made mattered, that you had the tools to change the outcome, and if you failed you wanted to queue back up and try again. the degradation of player choice and impact has been slow so it's not super obvious as one solid culprit but it's why i think marvel Rivals capitalized so hard right now. there's so many big plays that happen in Rivals that despite it being unbalanced is still fun. I made another simple video talking about my experiences with Rivals that'll come out tomorrow but I am absolutely loving how fun Rivals has been and how simple it has been to get into. I still love Overwatch and it's world, I hope they bring it around, but i feel the competitive game bug biting me for Marvel Rivals.
I definitely think there's a significant issue with tank and support being more complex roles than damage. Tanks have a lot more things to think about than just securing kills or holding angles.
i think tank is the hardest for people to understand how to do properly. the skills are not as obvious on what to do and angles you need to hold. knowing when to push and when to peel is a skill many lack. dps the better you are the more off angling and duels you take. higher risk higher reward. support you could sit far back and heal and poke with little risk. i think a lot of what OW2 has lacked is teaching the players how to play better. helping them realize what they should be doing. there's entire online communities dedicated to helping players rank up. there could be something within OW to help players do that and that might make tanking more fun. it would also help everyone. i do still think the immortalities and dps passive hurt tank the most so I would first look at those things but i definitely think there are ways to show people how fun tanking can be. landing a knife as JQ is just so satisfying and people don't even know yet.
ngl, on my first day playing support on 6v6 I thought that I always needed to be healing but after playing like, idk 1.5h a day since then I did adapt to 6v6. Today I played qp before going to comp, and, omg, the difference is big, the game looked so slow to me, I had so much more fun on 6v6, there was always smtg happening. Btw, I played as tank too and it's so much more enjoyable than before, now I can play much more freely as tank bc Ik there is someone protecting my back.
i'm glad to hear you feel the change too! 5v5 is just so slow and so much sustain. I love the fast action of 6v6 and constant play making. there's always something to do and always someone to attack who made a mistake and in 6v6 you can punish anyone who steps too far out of place.
Yes! People for some reason say that 5v5 is more competitive and fast paced, but with 6v6 there's this ebb and flow; a truly competitive feel to it where you're always busy, no matter the role. In 5v5, there is so much downtime it's not even funny.
My only issue with 6v6 is the tank combos. Sometimes it feels like you lose right at the selection screen. Also playing tank makes me wish this game had friendly fire so I could pin a roadhog co-tank off the map, playing with him was miserable in OW1
Haha well lifeweaver does exist still! I didn't mind the tank combos but i had an easy time playing quickplay. i wonder how it would fare in a competitive ranking. i know my experience is different for a lot of players so i'd really like to see what it's like when everyone plays at their ranks and what flaws start to show.
that's just inevitable. but knowing that you now have two tanks who can potentially switch instead of just one tank gives the tank role so much more versatility in player decisions. what feels worse is a tank getting hard countered, or a game devolving into counterswap fest
I think the main issue with most of the incredibly powerful support abilities is that they're reactive instead of pro active. Imagine if suzu wasn't a denial, but a deterrent instead. Instead of immortallity and a free 110 heal cleanse, imagine if it prevented debuffs for like 2 seconds and gave a damage (and healing) reduction. Then it'd feel a lot less frustrating because then you wouldn't get punished for hitting your abilities, you'd get punished for mistiming them. That would reduce a lot of frustrations I have with supports right now.
I agree! Reactive abilities are never as much fun as predictive ones or feel as satisfying. I actually made a video on what I would do to fix kiriko. I'd be curious what you thought of them. ruclips.net/video/vpPe0J4vvvE/видео.html
I've seen some comments on reddit and online. hard to say without data but I have seen more people prefer 6v6 online as well. i know my queue times have been all over the place with 6v6 but not in a bad way. some days tank was longest, others dps, others support. hard to tell without a whole season of just 6v6.
Sat down playing ranked one night and i wanted to see just how broken support would be after i had gotten much better as a player (I originally was a 4250 support player during season 20 but switched to tank and hit 4400 a few times). I did this test somewhere around season 28 and all i did was picked mainly zen but i would swap to ana or bap and just did as much dmg as was reasonable, whilst still healing my team. A few days later i climbed from low masters to 4270 with a over 73 win rate. Sure i had been a support player prior to the "test" but at this point i hadn't really played the role all that much for 2 ish years because i was focused on being the best tank i could be as i was starting to do some scrims at this point. So i still felt washed at support but was still absolutely destroying lobbies due to how extremely strong supports were back then and they are even worse now. The only players that i would say were genuinely good at the role were pretty much all top 100 players. Anything below that would be somebody I could heavily outperform on the same role most of the times. Haven't really played a full season of ow2 since i really don't like 5v5 so i haven't gone for top 500 but gm is still by far the easiest to reach on support. I wonder how the support players which are most of the times the worst players on the team, have convinced blizzard that their role isn't broken since 2018. Sorry for the rant but im sick of blizzards babying of the support role
it's so nice playing tank and knowing you can outplay the other tanks. also 2.5 second zarya bubbles in 6v6 means you are always full charge! it's pretty fucking crazy.
@@arinrobinson3898yeah having a meaningful Tank exchange feels so much better than playing Rock Paper Scissors all game. The balance is a little wacky but overall feels so much better to play. In an ideal world they would've balanced it closer to the 6v6 Workshop code.
oh, fun question! i just have the one right now. it's Nico Robin from One Piece. one of her defining moments from enies lobby. I designed it myself and a wonderful artist in LA who does manga panels did it for me.
this title is very true, and I'm glad you clarified it's still better to not confuse people lol, it's still better imo because hiding the problem (in this case) is actually just mitigating or making it less of a problem, it's hidden because it's smaller
As a masters/gm support player whos never played ow1, 6v6>5v5 and its not even close. Every role feels more powerful and "safer" yet at the same time more risky due to the added tank (like you said, higher risk and higher reward). At first i thought support would just be a healing simulator, yet that wasnt the case since i was able to keep the default state of damage while focusing a few more seconds of healing compared to 5v5. Even heroes who usually dont do much damage such as Lifeweaver i had been able to get to around 10k damage just from the sheer pressure he can dish out against tanks's heads. Moira can play with her two tanks as a third tank, essentially being immortal if she uses her healing orb properly, Ana nade can be blocked easier yet at the same time landing one feels more rewarding, Mercy can never stop moving (though i still want the action state cancellation back) etc Support just feels better because they can do so much more while feeling super rewarding when it happens, at the cost of your entire team dying, which usually was the responsibility of Tank or dps. Supports do need to be nerfed (support passive needs to be removed, global healing can stay) though. The only frustration comes from tanks feeding as if theyre god tank from 5v5, leading to players healbotting. I still remember a Juno of mine having 12k healing on a 3rd round of control, claiming that support actually feels balanced because they have to heal now. She had 1k damage compared to my 7k dmg and 8k healing on Ana, yet we still lost because this supposed balanced healer couldnt take the pressure off of us, especially since healing tanks is 100000% easier then healing anyone else who are in dangerous positions
i think it's more so that other queues go up cause there's not enough tank players. dps and supports don't like 8 minute queues. high elo would get bad with like 20-30 minutes at times.
You pretty much said it. I quit because I almost never got the opportunity to do something other than be shot at and when I finally do one of the overtuned supports swoops in with and shuts me down with a cooldown or even worse: undoes it. I became a lucio onetrick after dropping Rein and Zarya.
What I've been spamming since S9 S11 is that "meaningful interaction" is crucial to good player experience, regardless of the role, or even the format. Buffing HP doesn't soften counters - it reduces windows of opportunity to outplay the counter. There are obviously still problems with balance and design within 6v6, but the reason it feels better is because the amount of things that can be meaningfully interacted with has increased. You can actually feel and see your impact.This is what players have been missing! Reverting S9, subsequent damage compensation, and removing the role passives would make the game much better. They should balance from that point onwards.
6v6 wasn't even the problem double shield was. and really it was the addition of sigma and Baptist immortality You can run reworked orisa sigma bastion and now only sigma has a shield and bastion has turret form on a cooldown So it falls flat on its face just revert the health pools Alternative idea: a lot of bunker doesn't work if bastion is a tank. you can't run all 3 of them at once and bunker is restricted to only one shield because he wouldn't have one Abilities: weakened tank form on his E weakened turret on his SHIFT Artillery on his Q And his heal on RIGHT CLICK All on a cooldown... making him and walking arsenal with different abilities and an interesting tank character
yeah the aoe sustain did not help with the immortality. I think a lot of people just didn't understand what is making heroes strong. i think the sustain and denial are bad things for a shooter. i think if rivals has taught us anything it's that people like offensive big play making abilities and i hope overwatch one day goes that direction again.
@arinrobinson3898 not only do people want to make plays but they want it to be challenging to do so when genji uses blade he is in your face and all of his cards are on the table there is intensity and risk involved if I play poorly I die same with tracer then you have characters like sojourn or soldier or cassidy that can do the same behind a shield and just laser everyone but there are way more Genji and tracer onetricks (me being one of the genji otps) because the character is an adrenaline rush to play and not just a meta pick Marvel rivals isn't winning because its balanced its winning because its way more fun to play and rewards that intense gameplay That's a lot of typing sry lol
Hopefully the timing thing will be perceived more objectively, in terms of the data I mean. People playing Overwatch but not 6v6 is different than people not playing Overwatch at all. I’m pretty sure they’ll be able to see that. This holds my cynicism at bay. Imma be real. I think this is the first time, in a long time, that I’ve actually been enjoying my self and then lost. So often in 5v5 it feels like I’m being held hostage by my own team. Tank is soooooo much better. There’s just more to do. It comes back to something I heard someone else say: Playing tank in 5v5 feels like out of 10 possible decisions you can make, once 1 of them is correct. Otherwise you just feel like you made a mistake.
I have frequently said it feels like i'm being held hostage in 5v5. when you don't have the team coordination it feels like you can't get anything done. then if you tank in 5v5 and you die your team loses and blames you. it's too much pressure for one role. the only job you have as a tank in 5v5 is not die and that's not fun. 6v6 has been much more enjoyable for me and i missed it but with marvel rivals i wonder if it's too little too late. had so much fun last night it's hard to go back to grinding OW comp again.
@ Oh I’d never try to convince anyone to go back to 5v5 comp after playing Rivals. 6v6 though? 6v6 is far closer to a peak that Overwatch achieved which Rival isn’t currently. Like you said, Rivals is fun but it’s not peak Overwatch. But I’m with you. If they don’t take 6v6 seriously, I think lots of people will be done.
It's a bummer to say cause I love overwatch but there's no more story, no cinematics, no love, boring balance, I'm just sad to see it's potential going to waste. It feels like all they care about is selling skins now and without the love for the game it just feels so empty.
@@arinrobinson3898 ah dude you’re getting me down but you’re not wrong. The two big, no, gigantic mistakes they made were abandoning narrative direction and the jump to 5v5. More and more of my friends are just drifting away. In large part it’s become a generic live service game. These seasonal events are mainly superficial, like you said skins. It’s a shame because I think people don’t care that they add new heroes and maps - some of the highlight content.
I thought kingmaker was a lot of fun and should have a spot in qp the way mystery heros does. no way to do a comp kingmaker though, it's too unbalanced.
"6v6 is too Chaotic and not as much fun." The whole point of 6v6 was to be chaotic and fun 5v5 is the exact opposite because I don't want Support be the deciding factor of who wins the encounter on/near point ana nade being 100% Heal reduction, that's been bad since her launch, and kiri suzu just being dumb. Tanks not having as much control to be a threat on the encounter makes it less fun dps passive also factoring in to that problem, if only they tweak the (instant win buttons) like nade only reducing healing by half to still feel it's effect, but not be a full counter, suzu being similar but not being able to cleanse, and bap lamp just being tweaked to prevent a death and heal 25% health (lamp is consumed) mainly to say shutdown potential should be more on tanks(CC,Healing Nullification,Roots etc) and enable potential like Nano as an example should be on supports while dps has their typical impact as setting up kills and bigger kill potiential.
People do enjoy tank dotdotdot when it's strong. We all remember those early OW2 seasons when tanks were powerful and their queue times were huge. Then more people started playing kiriko, the supp buffs, and suddenly supp queues went up and DPS were instaqueues. People want power and for their ability to play to be less reliant on other people. You can go ash or soldier and afk shoot at people. You can go kiriko or anna and take care of yourself. But if you're a winston? You need people to do stuff and that can be frustrating
i don't know if i am misunderstanding you but doesn't a "longer tank queue time" mean that there is more people playing tank than support and dps? in ow1 there was 10+ min for dps and almost insta queues for tanks because of the low amount of tank players and the high amount of dps players?
yes, i might have gotten my brain mixed up in the video and i tried to correct but failed a bit. but the problem is not enough tank players to balance out the support and dps players. i think that's the fault of balance, design, and lack of tank options though.
dude i played all roles and mainly played my favorite characters. doom, genji, lucio, kiri. those characters are the main characters i play and it felt amazing to play. i could just do my thing without feeling like i completely abandoned my team. sometimes i int if i miss some shot but also i get big plays when i hit them. the risk reward is there with 6v6. bring it to ranked remove 5v5
Idk what in support do these people mean, when support still has 3 second heal passive in 6v6 which means that you can't interact with them if they are behind the tanks in the backline
I don't enjoy 5v5 anymore at all I played 6v6 and had more fun. Still a lot of the frustrations of OW2 plus some of the frustrations of late OW1. I had a really bad streak yesterday, teammates that obviously didn't know how to play and every lobby just dominated by Zarya. Support is absolutely not miserable in 6v6. It's frantic, but not horrid. What I've learned is that I no longer enjoy dps at all. None of the characters are fun for me anymore. All the kits feel very samey and they didn't used to be. TBH I think the basis for tank should be the heavy in TF2. They should go for more heavy frontliners. There's so many ways to do it to create interesting kits that are full of interesting damage and space making abilities. If the current 6v6 became the game would I play more than Rivals? No. Rivals I actually enjoy all the roles. A lot of the design decisions they've made for OW2 to make it more sweaty and competitive just doesn't appeal to me. That's not what OW was designed for and many character identities are now tied to playstyles that just don't work and aren't fun in OW2 and no amount of reworking while keeping them feeling similar to how they played originally is going to work. I used to be a support Symmetra main. She plays nothing like that now. I used to enjoy Sombra, I really loved the Mirrorwatch version of her. I enjoy Lifeweaver but he's got nothing on Symmetra v2. I think Moira has one of the best implemented kits in the game, it's so smooth. Ana is still one of the best designed heroes. I havent touched tank in so long I dont know how any of them play anymore because the experience was so horrible.
it's interesting cause I hear some people say they cater too much to casuals and other people say they cater too much to pros and high elo players. it feels like they aren't really catering to either well and it's hurting them. I think there are ways to make most people happy but they seem to miss the mark a lot. I know for me I love the serious competitive side but the game doesn't feel good the higher you climb anymore. I got bored trying to rank up. Rivals on the other hand is crazy. so many wacky interactions and abilities but it feels so good when you win and feel like you outplayed people. the interactions between heroes is just so much fun. it's gonna be hard for me to put down for awhile.
@@arinrobinson3898 and IMO that's actually where OW went wrong. They doubled down too much on streamlining everything to make it consistent and removed all the fun. This is especially important because the game was originally designed with a range of characters that used different types of player skills, not just shooter skills, like Mercy, Rein, Symmetra, Mei and even original Torb. The game was not designed to be a straight up shooter and it was more fun when it wasn't. Other things I think hve made it worse is making Symm DPS instead of doubling down and making more supports that weren't healers. Would Bap be so awful if he kept immortality but didn't heal? Would Brig be so bad if she gave overhealth but no healing? If they hadn't doubled down so much they wouldn't have needed role locks. I think they have just consistently got the tank design philosophy wrong. As I said, they should be heavy frontliners. Lower their HP, give them good damage and damaging abilities on par with DPS or their defensive abilities for the sustain and space making. Why is Hazard fun? Because he's aggressive and mobile and deals damage while making space. I don't play comp so I'm definitely casual, I've played like maybe 100 comp games in the entire history of OW. But I've watched top 500 streamers and honestly the games don't look any different apart from the skill of the plays invovled. It's still people mostly insta dying, still a teammate throwing a tantrum and throwing, still someone sticking to a character that is being completely hard countered. The skill level is different, but the experience seems identically miserable. Whereas in Rivals I enjoy all the roles, most games I fill because I am still playing someone I enjoy, I'm not being forced to play someone or something I don't want to play, I can switch if it isn't working and the kits are largely fun. Sure some are a bit lacklustre and the game lacks a lot of feedback, but at least the soundscape works. When someone is behind me I can hear them. In OW2 Rein can march right up to me behind me and I won't hear a thing.
6 v 6 as a dps (from my point of view) feels like shit. In 5 v 5 if a tank dedicates all their time to marking me, I get value. (This happens almost every game when I play venture and tracer.) The enemy is punished for choosing an objectively more broken hero and being forced to trade with an inferior hero because they aren’t as skilled as me. In 6 v 6 I can play well enough as a DPS to require a Doom fist, or Hog or JQ to spend the entire match facing backwards or leaping away from their team to shoot me and it doesn’t really matter. The net sum is that I end up spending more time playing against heroes that arbitrarily have 3x my health, 2x my damage and receive 4x my healing . So in a game where I’m better than the players on the enemy team, my impact is severely limited because the game mode decides so.
When you say make tanks for more I argee 100% I find hazard is so much fun and maybe I’m a little biased as already played a lot of tank but if tank role had more fun characters like hazard we would see more people playing tank
5:19 Your fundamental understanding of how queue times work is backwards. Long queue times mean MORE people disproportionately are playing the role, not LESS. The concern was always with a disproportionate amount of dps players to the other roles, and dps queue times were high. We see this is backwards here, where tank is the most played role now, because it’s fun in 6v6
I misspoke in the video about making it seem like tank queue times are the issue when i meant to say the lack of tank players which would then effect the other role queue times.
We need more tanks to help others get into the role cause alot of people just dont like the tanks we have atm for offer. Plus tank is so fun for me in 6v6 then 5v5, I rather not get auto stun lock to death when playing ball into a team of full counters and my supports go welp nothing we could of did there.
it's a shame cause there's so many great tanks already and i think it's hindered by the fact that 5v5 they were buffed to just be punching bags. immortalities counter their ults. and they don't get the dps passive so their damage is inconsistent. then the devs wonder why no one is playing tanks... like guys please lol JQ is actually so much fun for me as a dps player but counter swapping, the blame, the sustain, immortalities, all keep me away from playing tank.
Personally, I think tanks feel less fun due to the winrate focused balancing. If you boil it down to a game theory reduction, the win condition is stand on the point. Tanks have the smallest degree of separation to this win condition because they can directly do the thing. A dps would have to kill the enemy then stand on the point, a support is even farther separated and would have to have to help their dps to kill the enemy to stand on the point. So if the ideal is have equal win rates across roles, supports have to be a bit stronger on average and tanks a bit weaker on average simply due to their game theoretical proximity to the win condition. I believe on a deep intuitive level you feel gimped playing tank on an equal winrate playing field. You are doing the thing but not being rewarded proportional to your perceived contribution. Unironically, if you balanced tanks to 55% win and supports to 45% win, the game would probably "feel" better, but good luck pitching that to the egalitarians
I've played OW since open beta and at this point, I prefer 5v5. Maybe it's the characters I'm maining these days (Doom and Tracer) but I don't enjoy either of them much in this 6v6 test. Doom has lower hp and longer cooldowns so I have to be in and out super fast, then do nothing for a long time. And with Tracer, every angle I take I run into 2+ enemies, often a tank included, and feel like I have less chance to use the character's dueling potential. Playing my secondary hitscan characters felt a bit more chill than 5v5 though. Get to sit back and shoot tanks most of the time.
that's interesting cause i'm a Tracer main and I like that in 6v6 i feel like i have more options as i can duel tanks, dps, or supports. it's constantly shifting to being aware as to who steps out of place and who makes a mistake. in 5v5 i felt like i was just shooting the tank to apply pressure and force a suzu or something. i knew i couldn't kill the tank but i also couldn't leave them alone. i just wasn't a fan of pumping damage into tanks. it's interesting though now that OW has created two formats and impossible to make everyone happy. i don't know where they'll go from here now.
Tbf, Doom will probably end up needing another rework to function in 6v6. The fact they nerfed his CD of all things shows that they think he's a problem in this context, too. I'd take him getting reverted back to his DPS form as he's somehow more obscenely unhealthy in his tank form despite losing the one shot cheeses.
the only people that i have seen who dont like 6v6 are the OW2 only tanks. they are all only gold/ below and complain that tank sucks bcz they aren’t invincible. tanks not being invincible is pretty much the entire point of 6v6 it brings tanks down to an even playing field with the other roles but tank synergy helps remove tank counter swapping. even with a nerfed doomfist it feels 10x more fun than solo tanking as doom. if you are doing good on tank you get to now deal with being counter picked.
Space control matters more in 6v6 and it's pretty obvious when one team is doing that better. Overwatch 2 is honestly a better casual game. I don’t mean to say there’s no room for a competitive scene but 5v5 has moved the game away from that. Space control has become far less important with no offtank and heroes are less lethal as a result of S9 changes and supports becoming more survivable. At one point in OW1 you could barely peek without instadying during the Hog/Sigma/Widow/Hanzo/Zen meta. I don’t think this was healthy for the game either but OW2 is the complete opposite, sometimes it feels like group up simulator-even Tracer is sticking right by her team because there’s no point in hard flanking (I especially lament the loss of assassin Tracer playstyle, it was far harder to pull off but now Tracer feels like a better Reaper, just soft angle spam. Compare how kevster plays in OW2 to OW1.
I haven't been enjoying playing support. Support feels like you're heal Bottling. You'd think with the extra person being able to cover you, you'd have a better time. But honestly it's worse in some bullying situations having the extra person just bullying me without any peels. 😩
I mean yeah 6v6 is better but the games still not fun, i can’t describe what it is but I’ve genuinely felt like it’s cause it doesn’t have the old ui cause I just can’t explain it any other way, or maybe it still has the sequel kits instead of the original ones
That's why I think supports should get more abilities that allows them to be proactive. Suzu keeps people alive but if that player is useless keeping them alive doesn't help much. It's also frustrating to play against. Offensive support abilities give better agency and player choice as well as counter play. I made a video on how I would fix kiriko going over ideas like this. Perhaps you might like some of the ideas I came up with.
@@arinrobinson3898 Didn't disappoint, super reasonable opinion as always. Just a quick thing on heal botting, I think a lot of tanks in this test are used to 5v5 hp, so they take a bit too much damage, forcing supports to have to heal more. I would assume people would get adjusted after like a month or two
@@Control_Plus_C i agree, i think it's just gonna take time for people to adjust. people need to time their abilities a lot more and be mindful of cover and that can't happen over night. i'd be curious to see how it is in a month of playing or preferably a whole season.
Completely disagree about kingmaker, the mode has potential, in it I felt what a rein zarya duo can do again before 6v6 test, it had unkillable ana problems, but in the end it worked and allowed different team comp matches Also even if you think that you don't play with similar skilled player in unranked, you are. There is hidden qp mmr, in example I can say that my qp games in the end of ow1 were much more sweaty than ranked. System hasn't changed since
I also had that same problem with support players. They said it feels miserable but man, I love playing support in 6v6..I can do so much actually.. Feels nice. But you have to know when to heal, when to damage, when to peek since now support also can die easily, etc etc.. It's very dynamic. I like it. Tank synergy still is as wonderful as I remember from ow1.
As a support main its not fun half the time im eother healbotting or useless since ppl just wanna int like they always have. Taking away the tanks hp pool so they can be shredded in literal seconds isnt fun. You cant make mistakes as a tank anymore. 5v5 and 6v6 both have their flaws and im not sure its ever gonna be good.
i think you can make mistakes as tank but they are just punished much quicker if you don't know what you're doing. it's great counterplay but the learning curve OW2 tank players will have to endure now might make it tough. i think in the long run it'll be healthier for the game but it will be painful for people who relied heavily on just being unkillable before. that being said it means your ability as a support to do damage and outplay the enemy tanks is also greater. try to see when you can weave more damage in and only heal when people are below 50% health. remember, your tank won't need healing if you kill the people shooting at them!
@@arinrobinson3898 yea which makes it really inconsistent because some characters are basically playing pre s9 and some others are not which makes it even more unfun
Man, between PoE2 (already got many hours in despite being busy) and Rivals.. it's really hard to keep me in OW2 even though 6v6 is a better experience to me personally.. I just really dislike certain Hero designs (Kiri, Illari, Bap, Weaver, Cas, Widow) that just sucks enjoyment out of the game, for me, personally.
We really need to go back to supports either doing mass damage or mass healing, zen, Lucio, and Ana are perfect. They can all well and the only centrist is Lucio which is perfect. He does enough to help and still be impactful and thats what he needs to do. Kiri and Bap are the worst designed supports ever. Talk about Brig all you want but healing by damage is awesome and they really just need to tone her down (when shes a problem, shes fine now).
5v5 just feels like crap tbh. Tanking is miserable, it's like trying to fill a leaking bucket of water. I rarely feel like there was actually anything I could do differently to win tbh. I mostly play 5v5 open queue ranked actually, because it's most similar to the game that I originally fell in love with, but the 5v5 format solo-tanking just sucks. I lose to widow players, doomfist in our backline, etc, and I just can't do everything. This game seriously just doesn't work 5v5. 6v6 has it's problems too, obv, but yeah, it's way more fun, it's overwatch. 5v5 just doesn't feel like overwatch
whenever a new round of complaints come out, i always feel like i caught a massive dub by not liking overwatch from the start. from goats meta to dev team swaps to 5v5, ive heard more complaining and dramas from this game through the years than from the ones i actually play lol fwiw i gave the game another go with 5v5 since some of my friends play and ive actually been enjoying it. mostly because tank is so buffed in that mode that i can practically close my eyes and run around one shotting ppl with hog. have tried 6v6 a few times since they brought it back and so far ive found it just as boring as i found ow1 back when it launched. i dont enjoy the other roles and tank is not fun to me in 6v6. i think i just like running around as an op character more than i actually like the game 🤷
I clicked on 2 videos at once and i dont know on which im commenting. So i kinda agree with mos def but drake could still be labeled a rapper and popstar at the same time and 6v6 does sweeten things up
babysitting mechanics should be gone or nerfed to oblivion, there's 0 reason of fixing skill issue just by pressing a button, when harassers just press W and go to you to kill you and you cant do sht because the enemies have triple pocket is super annoying and unfun + creates a toxic behavior of people demanding pockets or blaming the lose for not getting pocket
The 6v6 test was sabotaged. Released during Marvel Rivals launch and the holiday season. It kept the updated health pools, hitbox increases, kept some role passives, and didn't bother to rework or remove insane tank/support sustain abilities like Mauga's overdrive and Kiriko's cleanse. Also, why did they add pre-rework hog back? He feels awfully clunky now that we're used to the new one. Also, the fact that they even thought Kingsmaker was even worth testing shows you how much these devs don't have a sliver of common good game design. Not to mention my pc feels slower running 6v6 in this new engine compared to the og Overwatch. The old saying like @Samito says that Blizzard are master artists but not good at balancing at all.
I'm very firmly a 5v5 enjoyer, ESPECIALLY on tank. I've played 6v6 constantly since it came out, playing it for several hours then going back to 5v5 for a few games and back and forth. Each game of 6v6 just makes me appreciate and enjoy 5v5 more and more. I enjoy being the solo tank, I hate having to coordinate with another tank or the team just falls over dead. I can't be self-sufficient because I don't have the stats to do it, it makes me feel chained to my team. And support just starts to get dull as enemy dps don't come after me and stay behind their tanks the whole game. Plus chokes are a NIGHTMARE again, and in my opinion, allow for more dreadful characters (sym, torb, ball, doom, widow, etc) to be even more efficient than they are in 5v5. That being said, DPS is a lot more chill, just spam at the enemy team and something will die. And if you're not doing so well no one cares, all the pressure is gone.
"But muh supports! WAAH!'' Yawn. My dude, youre running the tired and standard professional OW2 critiquer started pack. Like, I may have even run into your channel before, but you blend in with all the other small channels running the same unique script, that I probably forgot if I did. All im saying is that big OW2 doomer yt names do this much better already, and they have a firm hold on the audience pie. Also, Samito himself is the anti-Kiri pope, so dont even try to challenge that mantle.
it's almost as if there's a common repeating critique from high elo players there might be something to those complaints... besides if you actually watched my videos you'll have seen that i never asked for nerfs on supports. i even did a video reworking kiriko to give her more ability to do damage and make plays. if you weren't so biased being ready to be upset and make a comment you would have heard what i was saying instead of assuming i was just like everyone else.
2:30 okay so, following your and all the 6v6'ers opinion: ppl who enjoy more a 5v5 format are just stupid and dont know how the game works. Yeah sure thats fair, no wonder 6v6'ers are called one of the most toxic part of the community lol. Im a tank main since 2018 and i quickly adjusted my playstyle with the 5v5 format with no problems at all, kinda felt better too tbh. Having 2 tanks is only fun if that other tank is your duo or generally a friend of yours. Now that 6v6 came back i tried both my main roles, tank and support: Tanks should just be called "dps with +100hp and fatass hitboxes" bc there's nothing really unique of that role besides that. And support... oh gosh that felt horrible, its just a stay in the backline and just healbot 24/7 otherwise ur "dps with extra hp" are gonna die and say that ure throwing the match, and with 2 tanks is almost impossible dealing enough dmg to make a play to put the fight by your side. Support is just a damn heal boring bot in 6v6. The only problem 5v5 now has, apart from the counterwatch mode, are the s9 changes... gosh they're completely ass and the game felt way better before em. Bc "hard-stomping" the enemy team or viceversa can still happen in 6v6, not just 5v5. Generally many problems 5v5 has, can be related to 6v6, specially counterwatch. Why? it might happen slightly less but can will always happen no matter what you do. Sometimes 1 hero swap wont be enough so more teammates gotta swap but other times one swap might be enough to make the life of the enemy team a living hell. You just cannot stop it. Plus a last thing, in 5v5 team comps can be way more flexible than in 6v6. A zen in a brawl comp? yeah sure than can work out. But in 6v6 its gonna be way less effective and one wrong pick can send the whole team strat to the moon and make it kinda unplayable. Ah btw im saying all of this by being a high diamond tank/support, managed to hit master few seasons ago. I aint the best player in the world ofc but i can at least say that i know how this game works.
I wouldn't say 5v5 players are stupid, more that the game encouraged bad habits. getting them used to raw stats and immortalities bailing them out of mistakes instead of learning from them. 6v6 punished mistakes way harder so people who were good at balancing their cooldowns in 6v6 as tank can find 5v5 much easier but also frustrating as you can't punish other tanks for making mistakes. it's what makes counterswapping worse and more prevalent than before. i would disagree that 6v6 is healbotting. i never felt that in all the games i played. damage is still key to winning games and knowing when to do damage and when to heal is a skill. season 9 changes were ass, that we can all get behind. 5v5 has created a lot of 1 dimensional gameplay problems that eventually get boring. I know how to win and yet i don't care anymore. shooting tanks isn't fun cause you can't outplay them. you can only do enough damage to make them walk away and it requires a whole team to deal with them. this health increase on tanks encourages counterswapping. the supports i see are almost always the same every game. i never see zenyatta anymore but i see kiriko every game. the projectile changes mean sitting back and shooting gets more value and the dps passive makes tanking worse, hurts projectile heroes, and overall is just a bad way to balance sustain. they do so much to make 5v5 work and it just keeps getting worse imo. the game is less about outplaying your opponents and more about which team can pump out damage faster and more consistently with denial abilities.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
It's strange because support has become a very popular role, but there are genuinely so few people that actually know how to SUPPORT.
They either healbot or dps with very little in between.
i very much agree. a lot of the support only players I've seen have this issue. i don't mind dps supports and i prefer they do damage but also heal people if they get low. don't constantly heal if someone is only missing 10% health but you have to keep people alive. i think a lot of OW's problems are that people do not know how to play. something I think PVE could have solved but they missed their chance at that.
Yup I’m a sup main myself I find it difficult sometimes to look away from my team or they just explode but with two tanks it’s gives me a chance to squeeze out a good chunk of damage in between healing my dps that want to run away and my tanks
They are just mirroring the design of the support heroes. Overwatch "support" is broadly just healing and protection, and the most common trade-offs for a hero healing less is dueling potential, ranged pressure or self-survivability. A flexible mindset just doesn't click for some people because of the lack of "enabling" in the gameplay loop. They'll chase kills too much when in "damage mode" and will ignore damage opportunities when in "keep ppl alive" mode.
I mean in metal ranks supports get flamed for daring to speed boost as lucio while rein randomly decides to pin the wall behind the enemy team. People instantly die without constant healing so yeah a lot don't really learn to do anything but healbot.
I think another issue is that tank players that don't know how to not feed are demanding a lot of healing. And it takes a strong will as a support player to let them die and learn their lesson, and most just healbot, which is a Sisyphian task
this is true and something i noticed when classic mode was out. a lot of people didn't know how to play around their abilities and timing them. the tanks would be super passive because they didn't understand how to time jumping in as winston with bubble and using zarya bubble to survive. i think OW2 has unintentionally made players bad at the game because they rely so heavily on healing and immortalities. it was sort of an eye opening moment to realize that and why even players at my own rank didn't understand what to do lots of times.
@@arinrobinson3898 The amount of bad habits that ow2 and s9 changes people got will be much more noticeable when 6v6 gets to competitive mode, and when (or if) s9 changes will be reverted.
Interesting thing is that tank playstyle got rug pulled, support were babied, and some dps were molded, tracers, genjis, junkrats never been so good, modern players of these characters are insane now, diamond genji now purely mechanically would easily belong in gm few years ago
@@dsvd4727 season 9 was bad overall for sure. making good players great and great players gods hurt the risk reward system overwatch had finely tuned. i'm convinced that season 9 was only popular because 1. stuff was dying again finally and 2. lucio and moira were meta for a bit. now it feels like the same old OW again and people are bored.
they tried some bold changes but unintentionally made players worse at playing the game IMO. I think 6v6 once again helps separate the good players from the bad better. whether or not the community likes that or not is another story. I think it just plays better from a competitive shooter standpoint but idk. maybe i'm too hardcore.
@@arinrobinson3898 Yeah, s9 wasn't torn to shreds only because it made dps viable again, but then they still decided to juggle dps passive more in pursuit of nonexistent equilibirum where supports simultaneously don't feel "helpless" to flankers or oneshots and are not too egregiously overpowered, when the demands of dps and tank roles are quite simple - buttons doing damage
@@arinrobinson3898 I wouldn't say people getting worse at the game was unintentional; they keep making changes that lower the value of various skills that aren't just aim, such as people respawning in groups etc.
So many bad habits are rewarded now, and I hate it.
The thing is 6v6 doesn’t have issues team 4 does. Map and hero design is not the fault of format. High sustain metas have been in each format so format isn’t the issue. Support power creep and heal reliance is what makes flaws even more pronounced.
In fairness, 5v5 and not planning ahead together are the issue (they literally were caused to brainstorm ideas to fix tanking in 5v5 in the announcement stream when Super asked how they'd deal with the pressure and raw incoming damage for the tank player and then after that, the pro playtest had massive feedback that support needed work as it was free food for dps) and in the lead up to release, they only really addressed the tank issue by making them into super tanks while supports got basically nothing but a few abilities getting minor burst heal buffs. So they scrapped for ideas after the exodus, opting for sustain creep despite literally nobody asking for it.
One of the reasons I stopped playing MANY years ago (but continue to follow the content when I'm bored) is because the team straight up can't balance, or refuses to do so because they thrive on an ecosystem of "this patch made your favorite hero meta, come play our game! It's totally better now :)" when all it usually is is power creep and forcing certain heroes to be meta with nonsense balance decisions.
It really shows how little they understand the problem when Ana has been meta for like 90% of the game's life span in various formats and metas but they refuse to tone down anti, and then make all the other supports in line with her so they "feel impactful".
This test made me realise how much i love ball. Hampter is like so much fun even when the enemy team goes like sombra, sojourn and any character that counters me its so much better than 5v5. I also love how hero design shines so much more in this mode. I hope the devs actually let this gameplay stay or just replace 5v5 cause honestly its the most fun ive had on ows in a while.
It's a lot of fun when there's more chaos. Ball feels way more fun to play against too. I think overall it's just a massive improvement. Even if it's still got it's flaws.
been bingeing a lot of your videos, its really refreshing hearing someone articulate/talk about and hammer down the issues this games has (ridiculous support power creep, dps not having much agency anymore, tank being unfun, the constant babying of the support role) and not be super toxic about it. i can listen to you talk about this game for hours truly. and if no one has told you yet your voice is really soothing
Thank you! I really appreciate you watching all my videos. I know I don't have the best production quality but I just really love talking about games so I'm happy people are finding my videos interesting and unique from other creators. I really could talk about gaming for hours, it would not even be hard. And I used to stream on twitch a lot more and some people said they liked my voice for some reason and I'm glad you think so cause I know i tend to ramble on in long videos so i'm sure it helps haha.
The support part you addressed is interesting.
In 5v5, at first it felt like support was free food. It really was, too...they'd been warned 6 whole months prior. This caused a massive exodus of support players in S1 and fucked queue times more than RQ had done in OW1 for like a week before they removed basically all MM rules and lied about it. And the new hero was boring/generic, clearly catered to attract DPS players. Eventually this issue led to a need for obscene sustain which was always going to cause problems.
After S9, though, metas for supports have been healbot or be a DPS with no inbetween; it's felt like agency and carry potential was lost in favour of doling out sustain and attracting DPS players since the beginning. The DPS passive and HP pools caused so many problems while even making those it sought to deal with worse and at the same time broke the dps role by widening the gap between the meta and non-meta heroes. And the worst part is that they tested this exact passive in an alpha with pros and streamers before the first closed beta for OW2 and the feedback was overwhelmingly that it was terrible for the game.
In the 6v6 test, the DPS passive and healthpools still fucking with breakpoints do make support feel like they need to heal more, but frankly, as someone who was always a flex player that leaned toward support? It felt so much better than the game has for years despite this. Every single decision suddenly matters; if i choose to heal the wrong target, my team is punished, if I choose to go for some damage or an aggressive play at the wrong time, my team is punished. If I make smart plays, my team benefits. This is what I loved about Overwatch. My choices matter in this mode despite it being blatantly set up to fail.
The last 2 years, choices have just...not felt important since around S3 I think (can't recall exactly) but problems were blatant long before that.
Atm, though. Marvel Rivals is scratching the itch as a competitive player who truly loved Overwatch (and I still do, if we're talking what it used to be) Not only that, but they're not scared to make heroes with interesting kits that are niche; most OW2 heroes have been so painfully generic with the exceptions of Ramattra and Life Weaver. At least JQ is cool despite the basic kit.
"Every single decision suddenly matters; if i choose to heal the wrong target, my team is punished, if I choose to go for some damage or an aggressive play at the wrong time, my team is punished. If I make smart plays, my team benefits. This is what I loved about Overwatch. My choices matter in this mode despite it being blatantly set up to fail."
I love the way you wrote this. games and their replay ability depend on making you feel like you could have had an impact. 6v6 in all it's flaws still makes you feel like every decision you made mattered, that you had the tools to change the outcome, and if you failed you wanted to queue back up and try again.
the degradation of player choice and impact has been slow so it's not super obvious as one solid culprit but it's why i think marvel Rivals capitalized so hard right now. there's so many big plays that happen in Rivals that despite it being unbalanced is still fun. I made another simple video talking about my experiences with Rivals that'll come out tomorrow but I am absolutely loving how fun Rivals has been and how simple it has been to get into. I still love Overwatch and it's world, I hope they bring it around, but i feel the competitive game bug biting me for Marvel Rivals.
I definitely think there's a significant issue with tank and support being more complex roles than damage. Tanks have a lot more things to think about than just securing kills or holding angles.
i think tank is the hardest for people to understand how to do properly. the skills are not as obvious on what to do and angles you need to hold. knowing when to push and when to peel is a skill many lack. dps the better you are the more off angling and duels you take. higher risk higher reward. support you could sit far back and heal and poke with little risk. i think a lot of what OW2 has lacked is teaching the players how to play better. helping them realize what they should be doing. there's entire online communities dedicated to helping players rank up. there could be something within OW to help players do that and that might make tanking more fun. it would also help everyone. i do still think the immortalities and dps passive hurt tank the most so I would first look at those things but i definitely think there are ways to show people how fun tanking can be. landing a knife as JQ is just so satisfying and people don't even know yet.
ngl, on my first day playing support on 6v6 I thought that I always needed to be healing but after playing like, idk 1.5h a day since then I did adapt to 6v6. Today I played qp before going to comp, and, omg, the difference is big, the game looked so slow to me, I had so much more fun on 6v6, there was always smtg happening.
Btw, I played as tank too and it's so much more enjoyable than before, now I can play much more freely as tank bc Ik there is someone protecting my back.
i'm glad to hear you feel the change too! 5v5 is just so slow and so much sustain. I love the fast action of 6v6 and constant play making. there's always something to do and always someone to attack who made a mistake and in 6v6 you can punish anyone who steps too far out of place.
Yes! People for some reason say that 5v5 is more competitive and fast paced, but with 6v6 there's this ebb and flow; a truly competitive feel to it where you're always busy, no matter the role. In 5v5, there is so much downtime it's not even funny.
My only issue with 6v6 is the tank combos. Sometimes it feels like you lose right at the selection screen. Also playing tank makes me wish this game had friendly fire so I could pin a roadhog co-tank off the map, playing with him was miserable in OW1
Haha well lifeweaver does exist still! I didn't mind the tank combos but i had an easy time playing quickplay. i wonder how it would fare in a competitive ranking. i know my experience is different for a lot of players so i'd really like to see what it's like when everyone plays at their ranks and what flaws start to show.
@@arinrobinson3898 I'm mostly drawing on my OW1 memory so hopefully it's different in the current environment!
that's just inevitable. but knowing that you now have two tanks who can potentially switch instead of just one tank gives the tank role so much more versatility in player decisions. what feels worse is a tank getting hard countered, or a game devolving into counterswap fest
Just play Sig or doom if you get a hog, Sig is probably better though to pair with hog.
I think the main issue with most of the incredibly powerful support abilities is that they're reactive instead of pro active. Imagine if suzu wasn't a denial, but a deterrent instead. Instead of immortallity and a free 110 heal cleanse, imagine if it prevented debuffs for like 2 seconds and gave a damage (and healing) reduction. Then it'd feel a lot less frustrating because then you wouldn't get punished for hitting your abilities, you'd get punished for mistiming them.
That would reduce a lot of frustrations I have with supports right now.
I agree! Reactive abilities are never as much fun as predictive ones or feel as satisfying. I actually made a video on what I would do to fix kiriko. I'd be curious what you thought of them.
ruclips.net/video/vpPe0J4vvvE/видео.html
My queue times are shorter than 5v5. I’m not aware of anybody preferring 5v5.
I've seen some comments on reddit and online. hard to say without data but I have seen more people prefer 6v6 online as well. i know my queue times have been all over the place with 6v6 but not in a bad way. some days tank was longest, others dps, others support. hard to tell without a whole season of just 6v6.
Believe it or not, some ppl have said they prefer 5v5
@@arinrobinson3898 yeah my queue times have been better in 6v6 than they’ve been in 5v5 lately. I really hope they keep it in the game.
@@hectordiaz1575 I can believe there are some that prefer it but it seems like a minority from my experience. Hopefully they’ll keep both modes.
Sat down playing ranked one night and i wanted to see just how broken support would be after i had gotten much better as a player (I originally was a 4250 support player during season 20 but switched to tank and hit 4400 a few times). I did this test somewhere around season 28 and all i did was picked mainly zen but i would swap to ana or bap and just did as much dmg as was reasonable, whilst still healing my team.
A few days later i climbed from low masters to 4270 with a over 73 win rate.
Sure i had been a support player prior to the "test" but at this point i hadn't really played the role all that much for 2 ish years because i was focused on being the best tank i could be as i was starting to do some scrims at this point.
So i still felt washed at support but was still absolutely destroying lobbies due to how extremely strong supports were back then and they are even worse now. The only players that i would say were genuinely good at the role were pretty much all top 100 players. Anything below that would be somebody I could heavily outperform on the same role most of the times.
Haven't really played a full season of ow2 since i really don't like 5v5 so i haven't gone for top 500 but gm is still by far the easiest to reach on support. I wonder how the support players which are most of the times the worst players on the team, have convinced blizzard that their role isn't broken since 2018.
Sorry for the rant but im sick of blizzards babying of the support role
I've been having some great games playing Zarya in 6v6, I don't even bother touching Tank in 5v5.
it's so nice playing tank and knowing you can outplay the other tanks. also 2.5 second zarya bubbles in 6v6 means you are always full charge! it's pretty fucking crazy.
@@arinrobinson3898yeah having a meaningful Tank exchange feels so much better than playing Rock Paper Scissors all game. The balance is a little wacky but overall feels so much better to play. In an ideal world they would've balanced it closer to the 6v6 Workshop code.
Love your videos. I have so many problems with this damn game for years and years.. Nice hearing someone else talking concisely about it.
thank you for watching and taking notice! i love talking design about games. i got more ideas in the future after i get back from the holidays!
What are your tattoos?
oh, fun question! i just have the one right now. it's Nico Robin from One Piece. one of her defining moments from enies lobby. I designed it myself and a wonderful artist in LA who does manga panels did it for me.
@@arinrobinson3898fire bro
this title is very true, and I'm glad you clarified it's still better to not confuse people lol, it's still better imo because hiding the problem (in this case) is actually just mitigating or making it less of a problem, it's hidden because it's smaller
As a masters/gm support player whos never played ow1, 6v6>5v5 and its not even close. Every role feels more powerful and "safer" yet at the same time more risky due to the added tank (like you said, higher risk and higher reward). At first i thought support would just be a healing simulator, yet that wasnt the case since i was able to keep the default state of damage while focusing a few more seconds of healing compared to 5v5.
Even heroes who usually dont do much damage such as Lifeweaver i had been able to get to around 10k damage just from the sheer pressure he can dish out against tanks's heads. Moira can play with her two tanks as a third tank, essentially being immortal if she uses her healing orb properly, Ana nade can be blocked easier yet at the same time landing one feels more rewarding, Mercy can never stop moving (though i still want the action state cancellation back) etc
Support just feels better because they can do so much more while feeling super rewarding when it happens, at the cost of your entire team dying, which usually was the responsibility of Tank or dps. Supports do need to be nerfed (support passive needs to be removed, global healing can stay) though.
The only frustration comes from tanks feeding as if theyre god tank from 5v5, leading to players healbotting. I still remember a Juno of mine having 12k healing on a 3rd round of control, claiming that support actually feels balanced because they have to heal now. She had 1k damage compared to my 7k dmg and 8k healing on Ana, yet we still lost because this supposed balanced healer couldnt take the pressure off of us, especially since healing tanks is 100000% easier then healing anyone else who are in dangerous positions
my que's for tank have exclusively a minute, I've not seen tank que be a problem but maybe Im just playing at the best times
i think it's more so that other queues go up cause there's not enough tank players. dps and supports don't like 8 minute queues. high elo would get bad with like 20-30 minutes at times.
You pretty much said it. I quit because I almost never got the opportunity to do something other than be shot at and when I finally do one of the overtuned supports swoops in with and shuts me down with a cooldown or even worse: undoes it. I became a lucio onetrick after dropping Rein and Zarya.
yup! exactly, I do believe tank is a fun role but no one wants to be the punching bag that gets all the blame.
6:38 the double take of realizing, oh, thats my name in that game. Small world. Wasnt expecting to see that when I clicked here.
wait you're the mei?!
Who’s your pfp?
@@arinrobinson3898 nah they're the genji
What I've been spamming since S9 S11 is that "meaningful interaction" is crucial to good player experience, regardless of the role, or even the format. Buffing HP doesn't soften counters - it reduces windows of opportunity to outplay the counter.
There are obviously still problems with balance and design within 6v6, but the reason it feels better is because the amount of things that can be meaningfully interacted with has increased. You can actually feel and see your impact.This is what players have been missing!
Reverting S9, subsequent damage compensation, and removing the role passives would make the game much better. They should balance from that point onwards.
I agree completely!
6v6 wasn't even the problem double shield was. and really it was the addition of sigma and Baptist immortality
You can run reworked orisa sigma bastion and now only sigma has a shield and bastion has turret form on a cooldown
So it falls flat on its face just revert the health pools
Alternative idea:
a lot of bunker doesn't work if bastion is a tank. you can't run all 3 of them at once and bunker is restricted to only one shield because he wouldn't have one
Abilities:
weakened tank form on his E
weakened turret on his SHIFT
Artillery on his Q
And his heal on RIGHT CLICK
All on a cooldown... making him and walking arsenal with different abilities and an interesting tank character
yeah the aoe sustain did not help with the immortality. I think a lot of people just didn't understand what is making heroes strong. i think the sustain and denial are bad things for a shooter. i think if rivals has taught us anything it's that people like offensive big play making abilities and i hope overwatch one day goes that direction again.
@arinrobinson3898 not only do people want to make plays but they want it to be challenging to do so when genji uses blade he is in your face and all of his cards are on the table there is intensity and risk involved if I play poorly I die same with tracer
then you have characters like sojourn or soldier or cassidy that can do the same behind a shield and just laser everyone but there are way more Genji and tracer onetricks (me being one of the genji otps) because the character is an adrenaline rush to play and not just a meta pick
Marvel rivals isn't winning because its balanced its winning because its way more fun to play and rewards that intense gameplay
That's a lot of typing sry lol
Hopefully the timing thing will be perceived more objectively, in terms of the data I mean. People playing Overwatch but not 6v6 is different than people not playing Overwatch at all. I’m pretty sure they’ll be able to see that. This holds my cynicism at bay.
Imma be real. I think this is the first time, in a long time, that I’ve actually been enjoying my self and then lost. So often in 5v5 it feels like I’m being held hostage by my own team.
Tank is soooooo much better. There’s just more to do. It comes back to something I heard someone else say: Playing tank in 5v5 feels like out of 10 possible decisions you can make, once 1 of them is correct. Otherwise you just feel like you made a mistake.
I have frequently said it feels like i'm being held hostage in 5v5. when you don't have the team coordination it feels like you can't get anything done. then if you tank in 5v5 and you die your team loses and blames you. it's too much pressure for one role. the only job you have as a tank in 5v5 is not die and that's not fun.
6v6 has been much more enjoyable for me and i missed it but with marvel rivals i wonder if it's too little too late. had so much fun last night it's hard to go back to grinding OW comp again.
@ Oh I’d never try to convince anyone to go back to 5v5 comp after playing Rivals. 6v6 though? 6v6 is far closer to a peak that Overwatch achieved which Rival isn’t currently. Like you said, Rivals is fun but it’s not peak Overwatch.
But I’m with you. If they don’t take 6v6 seriously, I think lots of people will be done.
It's a bummer to say cause I love overwatch but there's no more story, no cinematics, no love, boring balance, I'm just sad to see it's potential going to waste. It feels like all they care about is selling skins now and without the love for the game it just feels so empty.
@@arinrobinson3898 ah dude you’re getting me down but you’re not wrong. The two big, no, gigantic mistakes they made were abandoning narrative direction and the jump to 5v5.
More and more of my friends are just drifting away. In large part it’s become a generic live service game. These seasonal events are mainly superficial, like you said skins.
It’s a shame because I think people don’t care that they add new heroes and maps - some of the highlight content.
Tanks in Marvel Rivals are varied and fun
I thought kingmaker was a lot of fun and should have a spot in qp the way mystery heros does. no way to do a comp kingmaker though, it's too unbalanced.
I can see that. Arcade works great but you couldn't pay me to try and balance that for comp lol
"6v6 is too Chaotic and not as much fun."
The whole point of 6v6 was to be chaotic and fun 5v5 is the exact opposite because I don't want Support be the deciding factor of who wins the encounter on/near point ana nade being 100% Heal reduction, that's been bad since her launch, and kiri suzu just being dumb.
Tanks not having as much control to be a threat on the encounter makes it less fun dps passive also factoring in to that problem, if only they tweak the (instant win buttons) like nade only reducing healing by half to still feel it's effect, but not be a full counter, suzu being similar but not being able to cleanse, and bap lamp just being tweaked to prevent a death and heal 25% health (lamp is consumed) mainly to say shutdown potential should be more on tanks(CC,Healing Nullification,Roots etc) and enable potential like Nano as an example should be on supports while dps has their typical impact as setting up kills and bigger kill potiential.
People do enjoy tank dotdotdot when it's strong. We all remember those early OW2 seasons when tanks were powerful and their queue times were huge. Then more people started playing kiriko, the supp buffs, and suddenly supp queues went up and DPS were instaqueues. People want power and for their ability to play to be less reliant on other people. You can go ash or soldier and afk shoot at people. You can go kiriko or anna and take care of yourself. But if you're a winston? You need people to do stuff and that can be frustrating
i don't know if i am misunderstanding you but doesn't a "longer tank queue time" mean that there is more people playing tank than support and dps? in ow1 there was 10+ min for dps and almost insta queues for tanks because of the low amount of tank players and the high amount of dps players?
yes, i might have gotten my brain mixed up in the video and i tried to correct but failed a bit. but the problem is not enough tank players to balance out the support and dps players. i think that's the fault of balance, design, and lack of tank options though.
dude i played all roles and mainly played my favorite characters. doom, genji, lucio, kiri. those characters are the main characters i play and it felt amazing to play. i could just do my thing without feeling like i completely abandoned my team. sometimes i int if i miss some shot but also i get big plays when i hit them. the risk reward is there with 6v6. bring it to ranked remove 5v5
Tank queue time is high because there are a lot of players wanting to play tank. The concern was about dps having high queue times, which it doesn’t.
Idk what in support do these people mean, when support still has 3 second heal passive in 6v6 which means that you can't interact with them if they are behind the tanks in the backline
I don't enjoy 5v5 anymore at all
I played 6v6 and had more fun. Still a lot of the frustrations of OW2 plus some of the frustrations of late OW1. I had a really bad streak yesterday, teammates that obviously didn't know how to play and every lobby just dominated by Zarya.
Support is absolutely not miserable in 6v6. It's frantic, but not horrid. What I've learned is that I no longer enjoy dps at all. None of the characters are fun for me anymore. All the kits feel very samey and they didn't used to be.
TBH I think the basis for tank should be the heavy in TF2. They should go for more heavy frontliners. There's so many ways to do it to create interesting kits that are full of interesting damage and space making abilities.
If the current 6v6 became the game would I play more than Rivals? No. Rivals I actually enjoy all the roles. A lot of the design decisions they've made for OW2 to make it more sweaty and competitive just doesn't appeal to me. That's not what OW was designed for and many character identities are now tied to playstyles that just don't work and aren't fun in OW2 and no amount of reworking while keeping them feeling similar to how they played originally is going to work. I used to be a support Symmetra main. She plays nothing like that now. I used to enjoy Sombra, I really loved the Mirrorwatch version of her. I enjoy Lifeweaver but he's got nothing on Symmetra v2. I think Moira has one of the best implemented kits in the game, it's so smooth. Ana is still one of the best designed heroes. I havent touched tank in so long I dont know how any of them play anymore because the experience was so horrible.
it's interesting cause I hear some people say they cater too much to casuals and other people say they cater too much to pros and high elo players. it feels like they aren't really catering to either well and it's hurting them. I think there are ways to make most people happy but they seem to miss the mark a lot. I know for me I love the serious competitive side but the game doesn't feel good the higher you climb anymore. I got bored trying to rank up. Rivals on the other hand is crazy. so many wacky interactions and abilities but it feels so good when you win and feel like you outplayed people. the interactions between heroes is just so much fun. it's gonna be hard for me to put down for awhile.
@@arinrobinson3898 and IMO that's actually where OW went wrong. They doubled down too much on streamlining everything to make it consistent and removed all the fun. This is especially important because the game was originally designed with a range of characters that used different types of player skills, not just shooter skills, like Mercy, Rein, Symmetra, Mei and even original Torb.
The game was not designed to be a straight up shooter and it was more fun when it wasn't.
Other things I think hve made it worse is making Symm DPS instead of doubling down and making more supports that weren't healers. Would Bap be so awful if he kept immortality but didn't heal? Would Brig be so bad if she gave overhealth but no healing? If they hadn't doubled down so much they wouldn't have needed role locks.
I think they have just consistently got the tank design philosophy wrong. As I said, they should be heavy frontliners. Lower their HP, give them good damage and damaging abilities on par with DPS or their defensive abilities for the sustain and space making. Why is Hazard fun? Because he's aggressive and mobile and deals damage while making space.
I don't play comp so I'm definitely casual, I've played like maybe 100 comp games in the entire history of OW. But I've watched top 500 streamers and honestly the games don't look any different apart from the skill of the plays invovled. It's still people mostly insta dying, still a teammate throwing a tantrum and throwing, still someone sticking to a character that is being completely hard countered. The skill level is different, but the experience seems identically miserable.
Whereas in Rivals I enjoy all the roles, most games I fill because I am still playing someone I enjoy, I'm not being forced to play someone or something I don't want to play, I can switch if it isn't working and the kits are largely fun. Sure some are a bit lacklustre and the game lacks a lot of feedback, but at least the soundscape works. When someone is behind me I can hear them. In OW2 Rein can march right up to me behind me and I won't hear a thing.
Really good video wow, hope this vid pops off
Thank you!
6 v 6 as a dps (from my point of view) feels like shit. In 5 v 5 if a tank dedicates all their time to marking me, I get value. (This happens almost every game when I play venture and tracer.) The enemy is punished for choosing an objectively more broken hero and being forced to trade with an inferior hero because they aren’t as skilled as me. In 6 v 6 I can play well enough as a DPS to require a Doom fist, or Hog or JQ to spend the entire match facing backwards or leaping away from their team to shoot me and it doesn’t really matter. The net sum is that I end up spending more time playing against heroes that arbitrarily have 3x my health, 2x my damage and receive 4x my healing . So in a game where I’m better than the players on the enemy team, my impact is severely limited because the game mode decides so.
When you say make tanks for more I argee 100% I find hazard is so much fun and maybe I’m a little biased as already played a lot of tank but if tank role had more fun characters like hazard we would see more people playing tank
5:19 Your fundamental understanding of how queue times work is backwards. Long queue times mean MORE people disproportionately are playing the role, not LESS. The concern was always with a disproportionate amount of dps players to the other roles, and dps queue times were high. We see this is backwards here, where tank is the most played role now, because it’s fun in 6v6
I misspoke in the video about making it seem like tank queue times are the issue when i meant to say the lack of tank players which would then effect the other role queue times.
We need more tanks to help others get into the role cause alot of people just dont like the tanks we have atm for offer. Plus tank is so fun for me in 6v6 then 5v5, I rather not get auto stun lock to death when playing ball into a team of full counters and my supports go welp nothing we could of did there.
it's a shame cause there's so many great tanks already and i think it's hindered by the fact that 5v5 they were buffed to just be punching bags. immortalities counter their ults. and they don't get the dps passive so their damage is inconsistent. then the devs wonder why no one is playing tanks... like guys please lol JQ is actually so much fun for me as a dps player but counter swapping, the blame, the sustain, immortalities, all keep me away from playing tank.
@@arinrobinson3898 indeed I love most the tanks beside the ones who do nothing but be a wall and shoot. aka orisa and mauga and even hog.
He quoted me from a previous video.
Personally, I think tanks feel less fun due to the winrate focused balancing. If you boil it down to a game theory reduction, the win condition is stand on the point. Tanks have the smallest degree of separation to this win condition because they can directly do the thing. A dps would have to kill the enemy then stand on the point, a support is even farther separated and would have to have to help their dps to kill the enemy to stand on the point. So if the ideal is have equal win rates across roles, supports have to be a bit stronger on average and tanks a bit weaker on average simply due to their game theoretical proximity to the win condition. I believe on a deep intuitive level you feel gimped playing tank on an equal winrate playing field. You are doing the thing but not being rewarded proportional to your perceived contribution. Unironically, if you balanced tanks to 55% win and supports to 45% win, the game would probably "feel" better, but good luck pitching that to the egalitarians
I've played OW since open beta and at this point, I prefer 5v5. Maybe it's the characters I'm maining these days (Doom and Tracer) but I don't enjoy either of them much in this 6v6 test. Doom has lower hp and longer cooldowns so I have to be in and out super fast, then do nothing for a long time. And with Tracer, every angle I take I run into 2+ enemies, often a tank included, and feel like I have less chance to use the character's dueling potential. Playing my secondary hitscan characters felt a bit more chill than 5v5 though. Get to sit back and shoot tanks most of the time.
that's interesting cause i'm a Tracer main and I like that in 6v6 i feel like i have more options as i can duel tanks, dps, or supports. it's constantly shifting to being aware as to who steps out of place and who makes a mistake. in 5v5 i felt like i was just shooting the tank to apply pressure and force a suzu or something. i knew i couldn't kill the tank but i also couldn't leave them alone. i just wasn't a fan of pumping damage into tanks.
it's interesting though now that OW has created two formats and impossible to make everyone happy. i don't know where they'll go from here now.
Tbf, Doom will probably end up needing another rework to function in 6v6. The fact they nerfed his CD of all things shows that they think he's a problem in this context, too. I'd take him getting reverted back to his DPS form as he's somehow more obscenely unhealthy in his tank form despite losing the one shot cheeses.
the only people that i have seen who dont like 6v6 are the OW2 only tanks. they are all only gold/ below and complain that tank sucks bcz they aren’t invincible. tanks not being invincible is pretty much the entire point of 6v6 it brings tanks down to an even playing field with the other roles but tank synergy helps remove tank counter swapping. even with a nerfed doomfist it feels 10x more fun than solo tanking as doom. if you are doing good on tank you get to now deal with being counter picked.
Space control matters more in 6v6 and it's pretty obvious when one team is doing that better. Overwatch 2 is honestly a better casual game. I don’t mean to say there’s no room for a competitive scene but 5v5 has moved the game away from that. Space control has become far less important with no offtank and heroes are less lethal as a result of S9 changes and supports becoming more survivable. At one point in OW1 you could barely peek without instadying during the Hog/Sigma/Widow/Hanzo/Zen meta.
I don’t think this was healthy for the game either but OW2 is the complete opposite, sometimes it feels like group up simulator-even Tracer is sticking right by her team because there’s no point in hard flanking (I especially lament the loss of assassin Tracer playstyle, it was far harder to pull off but now Tracer feels like a better Reaper, just soft angle spam. Compare how kevster plays in OW2 to OW1.
6v6 QP has given me exclusively landslide games, which is not how it is for 5v5 QP. Dunno if it's a matchmaking problem or a 6v6 problem.
That hasn't been my experience but it was for king maker and some people loved that mode. We might have been cursed by matchmaking one day.
I haven't been enjoying playing support. Support feels like you're heal Bottling. You'd think with the extra person being able to cover you, you'd have a better time.
But honestly it's worse in some bullying situations having the extra person just bullying me without any peels. 😩
I mean yeah 6v6 is better but the games still not fun, i can’t describe what it is but I’ve genuinely felt like it’s cause it doesn’t have the old ui cause I just can’t explain it any other way, or maybe it still has the sequel kits instead of the original ones
supports having less agency just makes it so we depend way more on our teams being competent, and I don't think I gotta explain why that fucking sucks
That's why I think supports should get more abilities that allows them to be proactive. Suzu keeps people alive but if that player is useless keeping them alive doesn't help much. It's also frustrating to play against. Offensive support abilities give better agency and player choice as well as counter play. I made a video on how I would fix kiriko going over ideas like this. Perhaps you might like some of the ideas I came up with.
Can't wait to hear the goats opinion
I really hope I didn't let you down!
@@arinrobinson3898 Didn't disappoint, super reasonable opinion as always. Just a quick thing on heal botting, I think a lot of tanks in this test are used to 5v5 hp, so they take a bit too much damage, forcing supports to have to heal more. I would assume people would get adjusted after like a month or two
@@Control_Plus_C i agree, i think it's just gonna take time for people to adjust. people need to time their abilities a lot more and be mindful of cover and that can't happen over night. i'd be curious to see how it is in a month of playing or preferably a whole season.
@@arinrobinson3898 a whole season, and ranked would really help, especially with rewards to draw in more casual players who wouldn't normally try it
Completely disagree about kingmaker, the mode has potential, in it I felt what a rein zarya duo can do again before 6v6 test, it had unkillable ana problems, but in the end it worked and allowed different team comp matches
Also even if you think that you don't play with similar skilled player in unranked, you are. There is hidden qp mmr, in example I can say that my qp games in the end of ow1 were much more sweaty than ranked. System hasn't changed since
I also had that same problem with support players. They said it feels miserable but man, I love playing support in 6v6..I can do so much actually.. Feels nice. But you have to know when to heal, when to damage, when to peek since now support also can die easily, etc etc.. It's very dynamic. I like it.
Tank synergy still is as wonderful as I remember from ow1.
As a support main its not fun half the time im eother healbotting or useless since ppl just wanna int like they always have. Taking away the tanks hp pool so they can be shredded in literal seconds isnt fun. You cant make mistakes as a tank anymore. 5v5 and 6v6 both have their flaws and im not sure its ever gonna be good.
i think you can make mistakes as tank but they are just punished much quicker if you don't know what you're doing. it's great counterplay but the learning curve OW2 tank players will have to endure now might make it tough. i think in the long run it'll be healthier for the game but it will be painful for people who relied heavily on just being unkillable before. that being said it means your ability as a support to do damage and outplay the enemy tanks is also greater. try to see when you can weave more damage in and only heal when people are below 50% health. remember, your tank won't need healing if you kill the people shooting at them!
I just hope they release patch notes because these s9 changes are not it, and some support changes will def make this game feel great again
They keep walking them back. I feel like we should just revert it and try new ideas.
@@arinrobinson3898 yea which makes it really inconsistent because some characters are basically playing pre s9 and some others are not which makes it even more unfun
Man, between PoE2 (already got many hours in despite being busy) and Rivals.. it's really hard to keep me in OW2 even though 6v6 is a better experience to me personally.. I just really dislike certain Hero designs (Kiri, Illari, Bap, Weaver, Cas, Widow) that just sucks enjoyment out of the game, for me, personally.
We really need to go back to supports either doing mass damage or mass healing, zen, Lucio, and Ana are perfect. They can all well and the only centrist is Lucio which is perfect. He does enough to help and still be impactful and thats what he needs to do. Kiri and Bap are the worst designed supports ever. Talk about Brig all you want but healing by damage is awesome and they really just need to tone her down (when shes a problem, shes fine now).
5v5 just feels like crap tbh. Tanking is miserable, it's like trying to fill a leaking bucket of water. I rarely feel like there was actually anything I could do differently to win tbh. I mostly play 5v5 open queue ranked actually, because it's most similar to the game that I originally fell in love with, but the 5v5 format solo-tanking just sucks. I lose to widow players, doomfist in our backline, etc, and I just can't do everything. This game seriously just doesn't work 5v5.
6v6 has it's problems too, obv, but yeah, it's way more fun, it's overwatch. 5v5 just doesn't feel like overwatch
whenever a new round of complaints come out, i always feel like i caught a massive dub by not liking overwatch from the start. from goats meta to dev team swaps to 5v5, ive heard more complaining and dramas from this game through the years than from the ones i actually play lol
fwiw i gave the game another go with 5v5 since some of my friends play and ive actually been enjoying it. mostly because tank is so buffed in that mode that i can practically close my eyes and run around one shotting ppl with hog. have tried 6v6 a few times since they brought it back and so far ive found it just as boring as i found ow1 back when it launched. i dont enjoy the other roles and tank is not fun to me in 6v6. i think i just like running around as an op character more than i actually like the game 🤷
I clicked on 2 videos at once and i dont know on which im commenting. So i kinda agree with mos def but drake could still be labeled a rapper and popstar at the same time and 6v6 does sweeten things up
The funny part is even back then in 6v6 support was by far the strongest Role....
tank queue times are long because there's too many people playing tank....
babysitting mechanics should be gone or nerfed to oblivion, there's 0 reason of fixing skill issue just by pressing a button, when harassers just press W and go to you to kill you and you cant do sht because the enemies have triple pocket is super annoying and unfun + creates a toxic behavior of people demanding pockets or blaming the lose for not getting pocket
The 6v6 test was sabotaged. Released during Marvel Rivals launch and the holiday season. It kept the updated health pools, hitbox increases, kept some role passives, and didn't bother to rework or remove insane tank/support sustain abilities like Mauga's overdrive and Kiriko's cleanse. Also, why did they add pre-rework hog back? He feels awfully clunky now that we're used to the new one. Also, the fact that they even thought Kingsmaker was even worth testing shows you how much these devs don't have a sliver of common good game design. Not to mention my pc feels slower running 6v6 in this new engine compared to the og Overwatch. The old saying like @Samito says that Blizzard are master artists but not good at balancing at all.
Havent touched 5v5 since classic came out.5v5 feels so bad in comparison its not fun at all
I'm very firmly a 5v5 enjoyer, ESPECIALLY on tank. I've played 6v6 constantly since it came out, playing it for several hours then going back to 5v5 for a few games and back and forth. Each game of 6v6 just makes me appreciate and enjoy 5v5 more and more. I enjoy being the solo tank, I hate having to coordinate with another tank or the team just falls over dead. I can't be self-sufficient because I don't have the stats to do it, it makes me feel chained to my team. And support just starts to get dull as enemy dps don't come after me and stay behind their tanks the whole game. Plus chokes are a NIGHTMARE again, and in my opinion, allow for more dreadful characters (sym, torb, ball, doom, widow, etc) to be even more efficient than they are in 5v5.
That being said, DPS is a lot more chill, just spam at the enemy team and something will die. And if you're not doing so well no one cares, all the pressure is gone.
"But muh supports! WAAH!''
Yawn. My dude, youre running the tired and standard professional OW2 critiquer started pack. Like, I may have even run into your channel before, but you blend in with all the other small channels running the same unique script, that I probably forgot if I did. All im saying is that big OW2 doomer yt names do this much better already, and they have a firm hold on the audience pie. Also, Samito himself is the anti-Kiri pope, so dont even try to challenge that mantle.
it's almost as if there's a common repeating critique from high elo players there might be something to those complaints...
besides if you actually watched my videos you'll have seen that i never asked for nerfs on supports. i even did a video reworking kiriko to give her more ability to do damage and make plays. if you weren't so biased being ready to be upset and make a comment you would have heard what i was saying instead of assuming i was just like everyone else.
2:30 okay so, following your and all the 6v6'ers opinion: ppl who enjoy more a 5v5 format are just stupid and dont know how the game works. Yeah sure thats fair, no wonder 6v6'ers are called one of the most toxic part of the community lol. Im a tank main since 2018 and i quickly adjusted my playstyle with the 5v5 format with no problems at all, kinda felt better too tbh. Having 2 tanks is only fun if that other tank is your duo or generally a friend of yours. Now that 6v6 came back i tried both my main roles, tank and support: Tanks should just be called "dps with +100hp and fatass hitboxes" bc there's nothing really unique of that role besides that. And support... oh gosh that felt horrible, its just a stay in the backline and just healbot 24/7 otherwise ur "dps with extra hp" are gonna die and say that ure throwing the match, and with 2 tanks is almost impossible dealing enough dmg to make a play to put the fight by your side. Support is just a damn heal boring bot in 6v6. The only problem 5v5 now has, apart from the counterwatch mode, are the s9 changes... gosh they're completely ass and the game felt way better before em. Bc "hard-stomping" the enemy team or viceversa can still happen in 6v6, not just 5v5. Generally many problems 5v5 has, can be related to 6v6, specially counterwatch. Why? it might happen slightly less but can will always happen no matter what you do. Sometimes 1 hero swap wont be enough so more teammates gotta swap but other times one swap might be enough to make the life of the enemy team a living hell. You just cannot stop it. Plus a last thing, in 5v5 team comps can be way more flexible than in 6v6. A zen in a brawl comp? yeah sure than can work out. But in 6v6 its gonna be way less effective and one wrong pick can send the whole team strat to the moon and make it kinda unplayable. Ah btw im saying all of this by being a high diamond tank/support, managed to hit master few seasons ago. I aint the best player in the world ofc but i can at least say that i know how this game works.
I wouldn't say 5v5 players are stupid, more that the game encouraged bad habits. getting them used to raw stats and immortalities bailing them out of mistakes instead of learning from them. 6v6 punished mistakes way harder so people who were good at balancing their cooldowns in 6v6 as tank can find 5v5 much easier but also frustrating as you can't punish other tanks for making mistakes. it's what makes counterswapping worse and more prevalent than before.
i would disagree that 6v6 is healbotting. i never felt that in all the games i played. damage is still key to winning games and knowing when to do damage and when to heal is a skill.
season 9 changes were ass, that we can all get behind.
5v5 has created a lot of 1 dimensional gameplay problems that eventually get boring. I know how to win and yet i don't care anymore. shooting tanks isn't fun cause you can't outplay them. you can only do enough damage to make them walk away and it requires a whole team to deal with them. this health increase on tanks encourages counterswapping. the supports i see are almost always the same every game. i never see zenyatta anymore but i see kiriko every game. the projectile changes mean sitting back and shooting gets more value and the dps passive makes tanking worse, hurts projectile heroes, and overall is just a bad way to balance sustain. they do so much to make 5v5 work and it just keeps getting worse imo. the game is less about outplaying your opponents and more about which team can pump out damage faster and more consistently with denial abilities.