It's funny because Deadlock (a game a lot of OW players have been swapping to recently) has a character that at one point had an ability giving them immortality for a period of time, and everyone didn't like it because it made them well.. immortal. And you know what they did? They pretty much immediately changed it to become a hefty damage reduction with a small heal, something people have been requesting for bap's immortality field forever. Really shows the quality of OW balance devs and ability designers compared to other companies like Valve.
yeah i don't know how to explain to other devs that any ability that basically makes it so you can't do anything isn't fun to play around. i wonder how fast this game would transform if there weren't immortality abilities. also the moment i get a chance i'll probably switch to deadlock too haha
Same. One of my biggest annoyance is the fact that a Tracer can prevent me from getting through a doorway as Ball but then a Dva can't even be bodyblocked at all because her thrusters that are on a 3.5s cooldown allow her to go through enemies. Even Doom slam can't be bodyblocked through a doorway or tight space. Ball just gets cucked in every scenario by every other tank, and that's not to mention the lackluster kill potential or actual "front"line presence.
@@Randomness662doom can’t get bodyblocked but getting booped in ANY way will turn him completely around leaving his back turned to the enemy as well as making the ability pointless
That's just straight up wrong, suzu as a purely just cleansing not invincibility cd is it's most balanced form. An ultimate only moves the issue to a basically longer cool down that isn't as impactful as any other ultimate.
@ I’m worried a pure cleanse would be too situational. And I think suzu is genuinely better than most ults in the game. The only ults that are better are other support ults. You could even just rework it into sort of a reverse emp that restores cooldowns too which sounds op but actually has more counterplay and decision making than kitsune.
Nah bro this is a crazy take. Ive been playing ow 2 for like 800 hours and ive said this before but ive only ever had like 1 or two kiri suzu that genuinely, truely actually affected the outcome of someones death or not. 99 billion percent of the time its just a wasted ability that will go on nearly a 20 sec cooldown, leaving for incredible down time to do literslly.... anything. Chances are if they are getting suzu'd the person wasnt really gonna die anyway. Any other burst heal character could have probably done the same. Invicibility isnt the end all be all or people wpuld be complaining about bap lamp way more than i ever hear people complain about bap.
@@aidanibarra3957I’ve lost countless kills to Suzu. It gives kiri enough time to almost fully heal a low hp target, and buys time for the other support to peel if it was a dps recieving suzu. It is really good at saving people who are toast. I dunno if it is more powerful than grav, but it is more powerful than many ults. Dps ults like Deadeye, blade, dragon, tectonic, tac visor, and a few more. I think it is more versatile than Bap’s Immo, and still gets similar results
@pphaver871 saying you lost kills to suzu is just putting a patch on probably greater problems in your game. Why are we not complaining about zar bubbles? They provide the same immediate affect and it also provides a dellema. Shoot the bubble harboring the low hp target and giv zar charge, or don't and let them heal up. Most times when suzu is used it's intended on a single target, yeah sure sometimes you might come into a situation where you ended up saving a whole bunch of people, but if your whole team is in that tight of a pickle, I don't think suzu is gonna help.
I despise Juno's torpedos and I wish the community demanded them to get reworked or nerfed. People HATED Cass' old mag nade that locked on and did damage, and now Juno gets essentially the same Code for multiple targeting at the cost of having to maintain LoS to charge it up... Except, 1. It's long range, 2. She's a support, 3. It's not really a risk when Juno is a support that HIDES behind tank and the rest of her team using either literal shields or as meatshields, 4. I can't always hear it or see it when she's 50 miles away using it and there's 50 things going on at once (so she's nearly guaranteed to hit it), and 6. It's low cooldown (10 seconds), 7. It charges fast anyway. Idk how people are ok with this. Out of everything in her kit that people have been demanding and expecting nerfs for, this is my biggest gripe with her because it FEELS like total BS to go up against and takes NO SKILL. Sure, we knew she was going to be nerfed in healing, range, and her ultimate too because she released overstacked, but those Torpedoes are extremely annoying. I play in GM, and I'm SO TIRED, not only of the overprevalence of Juno already, but of that auto-lock every 10 seconds that goes around corners, sometimes phases through walls, and it does crazy damage for how braindead easy and constant the presence is felt. I'm tired of Juno. Same sentiments shared on Suzu, it should *not* have such a massive hitbox. Buff it some other way, but make it not cover an island.
I couldn't agree more. the problem is once you start to get up into the higher ranks these free value abilities become even more annoying because there isn't counter play to them. i say overwatch 2 is made for casuals now cause it's the casuals that enjoy this stuff. higher elo players are frustrated and eventually leave cause it gets lame to deal with.
@@arinrobinson3898 Yup, the hitbox changes, dumbing down abilities, buffing lower skill heroes, increasing survivability, comp changes leading to inflation on the lower end, etc. I understand there's a need to make the experience more enjoyable for casuals, but even from a casual standpoint, I personally fail to see how enough players don't go "We don't need to be babied to have fun or do good." Genuinely just making the gam more annoying over time.
Also remember that it deals 85dmg and charge instant at short range, and the weapon cant deal headshot so its balanced to hit always the body and has a lot of movility, so u can win a 1v1 with less skill than most of the characters.
@@liucanthewhitewolf1198 Yup, that's what I mean by fast charging (whenever it's actually necessary - the moment you have enemies on you). And you make a good point about the headshot. She's just so easy to play at near max efficiency in general, but unlike LW, she provides a TON of value. To me, having access to long range (instant chargeup close up), auto-lock medium burst dmg for only 10 seconds of cooldown (that can also heal) is WILD. I guarantee it'll get a cooldown increase at some point or any sort of change because players are slow to catch on now, but eventually they will realize it's BS. There's 0 reason it should charge the lock-on faster close up. Not only is it rewarding bad positioning, teamwork, and vulnerability (even encouraging you take the risk to get closer), but it punishes the enemy for... doing their job??? Most heroes don't have an equivalent counter to the sheer amount of value that ability provides either, it's wild how free it is. It also has 0 business going around corners and clipping through things.
I don't know if Lifeweaver was the best character to go after. The intentional way to use his abilities is too direct, but there are lots of unintended things you can do with his kit.
Yeah, unintended. You have to fight the game designers to make him a good character. God knows all those unintended things will get nerfed like genji's high dash.
i wouldn't design a character on his kit having niche interactions of gameplay based around other heroes. i would want his kit to be able to stand on his own and then see how players come up with ways to use it with other heroes.
It requires a coordination and the skill expression is from the Rein/cass etc, not from lifeweaver. u only press a button. compare this ab to Renata glass Q from league, thats a creative tool.
Life grip has quite literally two uses and one of them is just to pull Reins and Cass' in for tiktok clips. It's only realistic use is to save a teammate in a dangerous situation, that's it.
Funny enough, even many of the gamers didn't play Dirty Bomb. The problematic medic merc is Aura. Four out of the five medics have healing abilities, and Aura has the most annoying ability which is the healing station, which is Illari's pylon except you have to deploy it on the ground. Sawbones and Sparks have throwable med packs; and Phoenix has a healing pulse, which the longer you charge it the more health you give to teammates close to you and a longer cooldown.
if the solution to counter play is to not play i don't think it's a good answer. it can't be dodged, it can't be baited, it's not limited range. also if she comes around a corner and shoots other people in the open fighting it's incredibly unfair as it's impossible to miss. the only counter play is to back off which guarantee's free space and in overwatch the game is about controlling space. it's just free damage that can't be missed. it's not a well designed ability at all.
thank you for watching! i'll do some more OW videos and maybe some game design videos based on other games too if this is something that interests people.
Your philosophy doesn’t add up when considering your critique on Juno’s lock-on torpedoes. You say that bad abilities in this game are defined by one-dimensional uses that are either easy to use or downright uninteresting. Torpedoes are designed around applying either heals, damage or both, in a burst, depending on POSITIONING. Though yes mechanically there is not much input by the user, it’s their positioning that offers great skill expression. Also there is a sound effect that plays when you, as an enemy, are locked on by the torpedoes. Otherwise good video and I agree her ult is nuts though lol.
This is a very support main ass comment bro no disrespect. Juno literally can fly. There’s no reason to not consistently get damage and heals on most of the torpedo cooldowns you have in a game
@@arinrobinson3898This is a question with a lot of answers dependent on context. Are they running a deathball, poke or dive? The worst case against an enemy Juno is to deathball without any form of shield/cover. The best option is to dive her just as you hear the blinking sound effects. I’m not saying it’s easy to just chase down a slippery Juno, and that’s just it, that’s her whole defensive strategy. Right-click gives you the option of a quick adrenaline rush engager at the cost of poor positioning. You’ll see it in Diamond lobbies when Junos get cocky and frontline with right clicks and get sniped. For me personally, the feel of getting into the perfect position to land her right-click on as many people as possible is incredibly rewarding. The ultimate + right-click combo is absurd and needs a nerf. But again, thats more to do with how overtuned orbital ray is.
@@annchovie8748 Send me a replay code of any Juno consistently right clicking more than 3 people at a time “off of cooldown” as you say. I’m also a diamond widow player from season 2 of OW1 if that bears any significance on my bias toward support.
Yeah and you'd never sacrifice an immortality just to reposition which is part of the problem. His kit just doesn't make any sense in terms of how you're supposed to play it and it's weaknesses.
@arinrobinson3898 do you have an easy solution? In my mind I have always felt like at the core of the issue they keep life grip at a high cooldown because if it was lower cooldown it would be more annoying for teammates
@@megamecha100 high cooldown is needed because of it's high value and easy use but people like using abilities in overwatch so high cooldown is kind of the opposite of a good design IMO. i would rework it to be more like threshes lamp in league where it provides a shield and a player needs to interact with it. this would remove the frustration of being pulled when you don't want to. i might also experiment with being able to destroy it as an enemy or perhaps lifeweaver could press e again to activate a secondary effect like damage explosion or something so he has counterplay to people diving him as well. this would make for more interesting choice rather than just holding it waiting to negate someone else's proactive play. anything that would provide more choice to lifeweaver, more control for him to counter play situations, but also give back more control to the players being pulled as well as more control to enemies trying to counter play.
If the problem with life grip is the invulnerability, then just change it to a shield like Zarya's bubbles, and with a slightly longer startup. Still protects the target from burst damage like a Dva bomb, but it would also be breakable object and give the option to rapidly focus fire on the gripped enemy, and stop them from getting pulled with good enough reactions.
I think juno's torpedos are okay. Because to pull the maximum out of them you gotta put yourself in an open space. You have to be an easy target to get all. And there is counter play to it, like sigma's barrier or dva's matrix. Also you can use them offensibly or ti heal. Her ultimate it's also countrable too, with just a nade or queens's ult
abilities don't need to get maximum value though. if you're up against a juno and fighting someone and she just auto aims free damage on you what is the counterplay other than just not being there? it can't be dodged, she can't miss, it's just free damage with no risk. you can't have free abilities with no risk because it creates player frustration. i'd much rather they design her a new ability that offers more creativity in terms of allowing her to outplay people but also allow people to outplay her. in every game it's crucial that when a player dies or loses they ask themselves "what could i have done to avoid that" and it be obvious. if it's not then it's not well designed.
@@arinrobinson3898 it can be dodge, just go behind anything, the hitbox is big and the proyectiles are slow. Like personally, if I see a juno looking the torpedos, as a tank I know I can block them with anything, specially with dva and sigma. If I'm a dps, I know she is an easy target, specially with widow and sombra. If I'm any other character, I just go behind a car or something and they miss. Or use brig shield. Sorry if I'm defendind the torpedos so much, but I looove fighting that hability so much.
4:09 this isn't really true as a lifeweaver main. There's all sorts of creative stuff you can do with Lifegrip (but actually Petal Platform & Tree of Life are better for this) that even gives offensive value. But, they're pretty niche: - bringing forward staggered teammate so they enter the fight faster - sky noon! bringing an ulting cass, soldier, sojourn, etc to your location (usually on your petal platform) and with cassidy specifically you can fly. You can also do this with Earthshatter to great effect. - Flank into the enemy backline and grip an ulting teammate/your tank to their squishies. This sounds like throwing but on certain maps against certain comps it actually works pretty well, because Lifeweaver actually has pretty good mobility for flanking with Platform + Dash. And while usually he'd be in danger being in the enemy backline, as soon as his Reinhardt joins him he'll probably be able to escape in the chaos. I would love to see a nerf to Lifegrip's saving ability in exchange for a reduction in cooldown. 4:31 "I don't think 12 second abilities should counter ultimates" lolwut? Every ult should be a guaranteed kill no matter what skill your enemies have? You want Zarya bubble, all barriers, DM, and hard CC all removed from Overwatch? All of those can easily counter many ultimates. If you're talking specifically Petal Platform into ultimates like Graviton Surge and Terra Surge, then maybe. But it's only really those two interactions that are unbalanced. Grav actually is totally useable against a Lifeweaver so long as you either track his petal cooldown or do a grav that Petal can't save teammates from. You can't activate Petal manually, only by standing on it, so if you chuck your grav on a wall or physically hit an enemy with it they'll be lifted up and won't activate he petal. The only ult that Petal Platform can cancel easily and consistently with little counterplay is Terra Surge. 4:51 His heal isn't super complex because of the auto-aim mechanic, but there's a lot more to it than say Mercy beam. For instance, you can now hold the charge on his heal which allows you to quickly swap to heal from your thorns (which means you're able to use your thorns much more consistently), and there is an actual aiming component to his healing in a few matchups. If you flick your cursor as you release a heal orb, see how it goes in that direction? These orbs will go through terrain, which lets you dance in and out of cover and still heal your team (which would be *impossible* if it was hitscan), and they can even go around certain barriers. If you try to heal your teammate through a sigma shield, the shield blocks it. But it's possible to flick your heal *around* the shield. This also can work for Reinhardt shield, Mauga's Cage Fight, and Rammatra's shield. It doesn't work for Winston bubble. I reccommend you watch some ReformedRavi and you'll understand more what Lifeweaver's kit can actually be used for. 6:05 hello? it's a support ult. Would you say the same thing about Kitsune Rush, Orbital Ray, and Transcendence? 6:15 Yep, you've definitely never spent time playing Lifeweaver. You should probably avoid talking about the depth of mechanics you don't fully understand. There is a ton of skill expression in the hero, although I won't deny he is a bit of a healbot and kind of sucks, but that just doesn't mean he doesn't have skill expression. 12:35 It just sounds like you don't like defensive utility for the most part. But if supports can't defend their team, what are they supposed to do? should the support role be entirely focused on debuffing the enemy team and buffing their team's offensive utility? I don't think there's anything unfun about supports having the ability to deny the elims of the enemy dps/tank, so long as it's at a healthy level (which it currently is IMO) and the abilities are designed such that they require skill to use effectively. 13:39 I agree that Torpedoes are boring because of the auto-aim. What would be an interesting idea IMO is to make it so that the ability turns your primary fire into the torpedoes for a brief time, and they lock onto enemies but you can rapid fire, so while you still have some auto-aim you have to shoot each player on your screen individually within the given time frame. Make it so that torpedoes can't shoot unless locked on, and won't lock on to a player you've already shot. Maybe buff the ability as compensation, but at that point you've got a much more interesting ability. 15:25 would you say this about Transcendence or Sound Barrier?
Yeah a lot of his Lifeweaver takes sounds like someone that’s only spent a few games on Lifeweaver. The 12 second ability comment bothered me the most. Ana’s sleep dart has been ruining ults since she was released.
Defensive support abilities are usually reactive and are usually just denial abilities made to delete value. Supports should have proactive abilities not ones where you have to react to something then deny it. That's annoying. Lamp, Grip and Suzu are all reactive abilities. They don't belong in this game
Waterrr6332 gets it. there's no skill in holding a defensive ability and looking at the ground to deny an ultimate and forcing resources isn't fun to play against. hitting a sleep dart to deny ults was always a skill shot but also could be blocked, baited, dodged, or at the very least much harder to hit. using petal on a grav is nowhere near the same level of frustration.
I know its rich coming from a lifeweaver main but he does have skill expression, not tons but some, if timed right you can black flux with tree aswell platform can be used to save teammates who are slept/stunned, grip while limited can be used for play setting up, his healing while auto aimed like most supports can arc over barriers if done right, you need to play a character a decent amount before passing this much judgment on them
@@Themanwithscoobysnacks I've been playing this game for 8 years at this point I've played every hero. I know all of those things and I don't include very niche arguments. Pull can only pull and there's no creative ways he can use it only niche ways other may benefit. But 99% it's going to be used to pull someone out which is frustrating. Blocking sig ult with tree is fine but it's still not a very interesting ult. And his auto aim heals going over barriers is still niche and extremely limited. He's just not a very interesting hero. I'm not saying you can't find silly combinations with his kit I'm saying it doesn't matter if you rarely get to use them.
@arinrobinson3898 the heal flick and tree techs aren't niche? When playing into shields these are important things i have to be conscious of, pull in the least charitable sense pulls people to you but you aren't considering what other uses the ability has if I was to be uncharitable with speed ring it just speeds people up, but that's not taking into consideration why I'm speeding them, I feel as if yhe only abilities you like are ones you deem are OK but don't take into consideration the other uses of abilities you don't like, you said ana/juno can heal or do damage all support bar mercy can do that? Not really an ana/juno exclusive, it is apparent that you just like those characters and not the others and that's fine but the criticism against them is shallow and doesn't take any thought i feel, you say LW is just a healbot which any support can be that if you only heal except brig maybe, nothing against you ofcourse
@@Themanwithscoobysnacks heal flick around a shield is niche because how often do you get to do that and how specific is it? a lucio boop for instance is a tool. you can boop away, you can boop people into your team, you can boop people off edges, you can boop for burst damage. lucio can do this on every enemy. heal flick requires an enemy with a specific shield and if they don't have one you don't have that tool anymore. so it's niche. when an ability is so easy to do it's extremely limited in what it can do which limits skill expression. just because you are incapable of seeing other possibilities past what he already exists as does not make my critiques of him shallow.
@arinrobinson3898 i can use the Flick when ram or sigma or rein are being played sometimes it works with matrix and orisa spear spin, lucio boop wasn't mentioned by me you haven't tackled anything i previously mentioned apart from saying I'm incapable of seeing past what a character can do when you literally said what an ability did and nothing else that is shallow and a bit hypocritical, landing a sleep dart isn't hard nor skilful using it at the right time on the right target is, you cant say nuh uh to any skillful thing I bring up and then ignore it it's like having a discussion with a brick wall, again I'm not trying to attack you as a person
@@Themanwithscoobysnacks "i can use the Flick when ram or sigma or rein are being played sometimes it works with matrix and orisa spear spin." so it does nothing for ball, hog, JQ, Zarya, doomfist, or winston and it only works sometimes with dva. your "tech" works on less than half the tank roster. it also is a meaningless "tech" that doesn't do anything if you're faced with a dps or support in front of you. congratulations, you just described niche.
I really wish that lifeweaver was actually a healthy hero because i love everything about the character and his play style focusing on utility, but it seems like he’d need a severe rework just so he can be buffed without completely destroying the meta :( Do you have any suggestions to rework his kit?
I replied to someone else on ideas so i'll copy it for the most part life grip has a high cooldown because of it's high value and easy use but people like using abilities in overwatch so high cooldown is kind of the opposite of a good design IMO. i would rework it to be more like threshes lamp in league where it provides a shield and a player needs to interact with it. this would remove the frustration of being pulled when you don't want to. i might also experiment with being able to destroy it as an enemy or perhaps lifeweaver could press e again to activate a secondary effect like damage explosion or something so he has counterplay to people diving him as well. this would make for more interesting choice rather than just holding it waiting to negate someone else's proactive play. anything that would provide more choice to lifeweaver, more control for him to counter play situations, but also give back more control to the players being pulled as well as more control to enemies trying to counter play.
I think suzu is not much different from life grip and lamp which is a problem. simply press E and have limited to no risk at missing and providing immortality that provides a game changing moment. any ability that provides so much value should not be easy to hit and the ground cannot be missed. i'd rather see a focus on her papers and changing her kit around to where her papers are more than just auto aim heals and suzu is replaced by an ability that can cleanse but also a paper that could be used offensively. like toss and try to stick someone with a debuff. this would give her a way to outplay flankers with reasonable margin for error, keep her ability to cleanse, and make it a lot of other abilities matter more. i don't think a cleanse is bad perse but i do think a mass aoe, cleanse all, heal all, immortality all that can't be missed is. if ana or JQ hit a Nade or ult hitting 3 and you could only cleanse 1 then you have player choice but also you give back counter play to JQ. as much as it might hurt kiriko to have an ability like that giving that same ability a way to be offensive would offer more interesting choice in her kit and counterplay to her.
@ so like, what if suzu was a projectile that when hitting a teammate it cleanses and makes them immortal like it is now, maybe it could still bounce off walls? It could be like ana but for teammates
I actually disagree with the notion that Ana is healthy or honest. People don't like Widow because she gets an inordinate amount of leverage for the low risk of hiding by range, People don't like Sombra because she takes away your ability to play the game. Ana does both, and instead of proactively: she uses everything reactively, she doesn't outplay anyone, she hides and then presses E. Baptiste's lamp, as controversial as it is feels weirdly more agreeable to me than being slept or anti'd everytime I make a move, at least it's on a character with a bigger hitbox. When everything is reactive, it makes the game feel slow and boring.
This is just wrong on basically every point. Widow is low risk high reward but the difference between her and ana is that if you get ontop of ana she has to hit the skill shot of sleep to win whereas wid can hit the skill shot to win but also has a free escape tool in grapple. The difference between sombra and ana is that ana's sleep is telegraphed well meanwhile sombra can take you completely off guard bc she can be anywhere and ana has to hit the sleep meanwhile hack aims for you. The difference between sleep and nade compared to lamp is that you can actually outplay sleep and nade meanwhile with lamp you HAVE to break it in order for the bap to be killable again you have 1 option to beat lamp meanwhile you have a ton of options to beat sleep and nade especially on the tank role.
@@mc_3232 To add to your point... I play a lot of Ana and she is a good mix of proactive and reactive. Sleep/Nade are reactive if you get dived on, however the sleep/nade are best used proactively in a team fight where multiple people can be anti'd and you can heal some of your team in the process too. As you say, sleeps aren't that easy to hit either. I have a problem with Sombra stopping people playing the game cos she has an easy out and great mobility, Ana has nothing. She has to use her kit to kill or be killed, others can run away. I think Ana is a great hero, fairly difficult to play overall, but you can get really good value from her the better you are but you need to hit your shots and cooldowns manually without any help to be effective at her. A good Ana is the ultimate 'fuck around and find out' hero... she needs to be a bit OP in some respects cos without it she'd be the worst character in the game. As for Widow... yeah, just getting one shot from across the map doesn't feel good - I have a little less of an issue with Widow vs Sombra cos you actually have to hit the shot BUT still it really feels bad when the enemy team has an uncontested widow.
It's funny because Deadlock (a game a lot of OW players have been swapping to recently) has a character that at one point had an ability giving them immortality for a period of time, and everyone didn't like it because it made them well.. immortal. And you know what they did? They pretty much immediately changed it to become a hefty damage reduction with a small heal, something people have been requesting for bap's immortality field forever.
Really shows the quality of OW balance devs and ability designers compared to other companies like Valve.
yeah i don't know how to explain to other devs that any ability that basically makes it so you can't do anything isn't fun to play around. i wonder how fast this game would transform if there weren't immortality abilities.
also the moment i get a chance i'll probably switch to deadlock too haha
As a ball main I feel like most of the other tanks can get way more value with half the amount of effort now especially the other dive tanks
Same. One of my biggest annoyance is the fact that a Tracer can prevent me from getting through a doorway as Ball but then a Dva can't even be bodyblocked at all because her thrusters that are on a 3.5s cooldown allow her to go through enemies. Even Doom slam can't be bodyblocked through a doorway or tight space. Ball just gets cucked in every scenario by every other tank, and that's not to mention the lackluster kill potential or actual "front"line presence.
@@Randomness662doom can’t get bodyblocked but getting booped in ANY way will turn him completely around leaving his back turned to the enemy as well as making the ability pointless
@@commandercorgi ah fuck i got booped lemme hit Q and get out completely for free
There are too many immoralities and cleanses in the game. Mercy's res has also always been a problem.
Suzu has a place in the game as an ultimate. It actually has the same risk-reward ratio as a grav or a shatter if it was an ult.
That's just straight up wrong, suzu as a purely just cleansing not invincibility cd is it's most balanced form. An ultimate only moves the issue to a basically longer cool down that isn't as impactful as any other ultimate.
@ I’m worried a pure cleanse would be too situational. And I think suzu is genuinely better than most ults in the game. The only ults that are better are other support ults. You could even just rework it into sort of a reverse emp that restores cooldowns too which sounds op but actually has more counterplay and decision making than kitsune.
Nah bro this is a crazy take. Ive been playing ow 2 for like 800 hours and ive said this before but ive only ever had like 1 or two kiri suzu that genuinely, truely actually affected the outcome of someones death or not. 99 billion percent of the time its just a wasted ability that will go on nearly a 20 sec cooldown, leaving for incredible down time to do literslly.... anything. Chances are if they are getting suzu'd the person wasnt really gonna die anyway. Any other burst heal character could have probably done the same. Invicibility isnt the end all be all or people wpuld be complaining about bap lamp way more than i ever hear people complain about bap.
@@aidanibarra3957I’ve lost countless kills to Suzu. It gives kiri enough time to almost fully heal a low hp target, and buys time for the other support to peel if it was a dps recieving suzu. It is really good at saving people who are toast.
I dunno if it is more powerful than grav, but it is more powerful than many ults. Dps ults like Deadeye, blade, dragon, tectonic, tac visor, and a few more. I think it is more versatile than Bap’s Immo, and still gets similar results
@pphaver871 saying you lost kills to suzu is just putting a patch on probably greater problems in your game. Why are we not complaining about zar bubbles? They provide the same immediate affect and it also provides a dellema. Shoot the bubble harboring the low hp target and giv zar charge, or don't and let them heal up. Most times when suzu is used it's intended on a single target, yeah sure sometimes you might come into a situation where you ended up saving a whole bunch of people, but if your whole team is in that tight of a pickle, I don't think suzu is gonna help.
I despise Juno's torpedos and I wish the community demanded them to get reworked or nerfed. People HATED Cass' old mag nade that locked on and did damage, and now Juno gets essentially the same Code for multiple targeting at the cost of having to maintain LoS to charge it up... Except, 1. It's long range, 2. She's a support, 3. It's not really a risk when Juno is a support that HIDES behind tank and the rest of her team using either literal shields or as meatshields, 4. I can't always hear it or see it when she's 50 miles away using it and there's 50 things going on at once (so she's nearly guaranteed to hit it), and 6. It's low cooldown (10 seconds), 7. It charges fast anyway. Idk how people are ok with this.
Out of everything in her kit that people have been demanding and expecting nerfs for, this is my biggest gripe with her because it FEELS like total BS to go up against and takes NO SKILL. Sure, we knew she was going to be nerfed in healing, range, and her ultimate too because she released overstacked, but those Torpedoes are extremely annoying. I play in GM, and I'm SO TIRED, not only of the overprevalence of Juno already, but of that auto-lock every 10 seconds that goes around corners, sometimes phases through walls, and it does crazy damage for how braindead easy and constant the presence is felt. I'm tired of Juno. Same sentiments shared on Suzu, it should *not* have such a massive hitbox. Buff it some other way, but make it not cover an island.
I couldn't agree more. the problem is once you start to get up into the higher ranks these free value abilities become even more annoying because there isn't counter play to them. i say overwatch 2 is made for casuals now cause it's the casuals that enjoy this stuff. higher elo players are frustrated and eventually leave cause it gets lame to deal with.
@@arinrobinson3898 Yup, the hitbox changes, dumbing down abilities, buffing lower skill heroes, increasing survivability, comp changes leading to inflation on the lower end, etc. I understand there's a need to make the experience more enjoyable for casuals, but even from a casual standpoint, I personally fail to see how enough players don't go "We don't need to be babied to have fun or do good." Genuinely just making the gam more annoying over time.
Also remember that it deals 85dmg and charge instant at short range, and the weapon cant deal headshot so its balanced to hit always the body and has a lot of movility, so u can win a 1v1 with less skill than most of the characters.
@@liucanthewhitewolf1198 Yup, that's what I mean by fast charging (whenever it's actually necessary - the moment you have enemies on you). And you make a good point about the headshot. She's just so easy to play at near max efficiency in general, but unlike LW, she provides a TON of value. To me, having access to long range (instant chargeup close up), auto-lock medium burst dmg for only 10 seconds of cooldown (that can also heal) is WILD. I guarantee it'll get a cooldown increase at some point or any sort of change because players are slow to catch on now, but eventually they will realize it's BS. There's 0 reason it should charge the lock-on faster close up. Not only is it rewarding bad positioning, teamwork, and vulnerability (even encouraging you take the risk to get closer), but it punishes the enemy for... doing their job??? Most heroes don't have an equivalent counter to the sheer amount of value that ability provides either, it's wild how free it is.
It also has 0 business going around corners and clipping through things.
@RemedieX they took Mccree high noon charge and put in a 10 sec cooldown, he also charges faster when is close.
great video especially compared to channel size. subbed
Thank you so much! glad you liked it!
"You are a conscious Illari pylon" - best line in the whole video 😂🤣
I don't know if Lifeweaver was the best character to go after.
The intentional way to use his abilities is too direct, but there are lots of unintended things you can do with his kit.
Yeah, unintended. You have to fight the game designers to make him a good character. God knows all those unintended things will get nerfed like genji's high dash.
i wouldn't design a character on his kit having niche interactions of gameplay based around other heroes. i would want his kit to be able to stand on his own and then see how players come up with ways to use it with other heroes.
"Life grip is not a creative tool"
Meanwhile a Reinhart gets Life-grip-sling shotted into the enemy team fora big shatter.
It requires a coordination and the skill expression is from the Rein/cass etc, not from lifeweaver. u only press a button. compare this ab to Renata glass Q from league, thats a creative tool.
Life grip has quite literally two uses and one of them is just to pull Reins and Cass' in for tiktok clips. It's only realistic use is to save a teammate in a dangerous situation, that's it.
Game feel is exactly why I despise Sombra
Funny enough, even many of the gamers didn't play Dirty Bomb. The problematic medic merc is Aura. Four out of the five medics have healing abilities, and Aura has the most annoying ability which is the healing station, which is Illari's pylon except you have to deploy it on the ground.
Sawbones and Sparks have throwable med packs; and Phoenix has a healing pulse, which the longer you charge it the more health you give to teammates close to you and a longer cooldown.
Tbf, Juno's torps have a loud ass audio queue. All you have to do as an enemy is listen, and break LOS.
if the solution to counter play is to not play i don't think it's a good answer. it can't be dodged, it can't be baited, it's not limited range. also if she comes around a corner and shoots other people in the open fighting it's incredibly unfair as it's impossible to miss. the only counter play is to back off which guarantee's free space and in overwatch the game is about controlling space. it's just free damage that can't be missed. it's not a well designed ability at all.
Video is pure gold, thank you.
thank you for watching! i'll do some more OW videos and maybe some game design videos based on other games too if this is something that interests people.
Your philosophy doesn’t add up when considering your critique on Juno’s lock-on torpedoes.
You say that bad abilities in this game are defined by one-dimensional uses that are either easy to use or downright uninteresting. Torpedoes are designed around applying either heals, damage or both, in a burst, depending on POSITIONING. Though yes mechanically there is not much input by the user, it’s their positioning that offers great skill expression. Also there is a sound effect that plays when you, as an enemy, are locked on by the torpedoes.
Otherwise good video and I agree her ult is nuts though lol.
thank you for watching!
lets look at the torpedos another way and i'll do that by asking a question what is the counterplay to them as an enemy?
This is a very support main ass comment bro no disrespect. Juno literally can fly. There’s no reason to not consistently get damage and heals on most of the torpedo cooldowns you have in a game
@@arinrobinson3898This is a question with a lot of answers dependent on context. Are they running a deathball, poke or dive? The worst case against an enemy Juno is to deathball without any form of shield/cover. The best option is to dive her just as you hear the blinking sound effects. I’m not saying it’s easy to just chase down a slippery Juno, and that’s just it, that’s her whole defensive strategy.
Right-click gives you the option of a quick adrenaline rush engager at the cost of poor positioning. You’ll see it in Diamond lobbies when Junos get cocky and frontline with right clicks and get sniped.
For me personally, the feel of getting into the perfect position to land her right-click on as many people as possible is incredibly rewarding. The ultimate + right-click combo is absurd and needs a nerf. But again, thats more to do with how overtuned orbital ray is.
@@annchovie8748 Send me a replay code of any Juno consistently right clicking more than 3 people at a time “off of cooldown” as you say.
I’m also a diamond widow player from season 2 of OW1 if that bears any significance on my bias toward support.
@@arinrobinson3898walls 💀
In theory life grip could have creativity in being utilized for repositioning lower mobility teammates but petal platform already does that lol
Yeah and you'd never sacrifice an immortality just to reposition which is part of the problem. His kit just doesn't make any sense in terms of how you're supposed to play it and it's weaknesses.
@arinrobinson3898 do you have an easy solution? In my mind I have always felt like at the core of the issue they keep life grip at a high cooldown because if it was lower cooldown it would be more annoying for teammates
@@megamecha100 high cooldown is needed because of it's high value and easy use but people like using abilities in overwatch so high cooldown is kind of the opposite of a good design IMO. i would rework it to be more like threshes lamp in league where it provides a shield and a player needs to interact with it. this would remove the frustration of being pulled when you don't want to. i might also experiment with being able to destroy it as an enemy or perhaps lifeweaver could press e again to activate a secondary effect like damage explosion or something so he has counterplay to people diving him as well. this would make for more interesting choice rather than just holding it waiting to negate someone else's proactive play. anything that would provide more choice to lifeweaver, more control for him to counter play situations, but also give back more control to the players being pulled as well as more control to enemies trying to counter play.
If the problem with life grip is the invulnerability, then just change it to a shield like Zarya's bubbles, and with a slightly longer startup. Still protects the target from burst damage like a Dva bomb, but it would also be breakable object and give the option to rapidly focus fire on the gripped enemy, and stop them from getting pulled with good enough reactions.
I think juno's torpedos are okay. Because to pull the maximum out of them you gotta put yourself in an open space. You have to be an easy target to get all. And there is counter play to it, like sigma's barrier or dva's matrix. Also you can use them offensibly or ti heal.
Her ultimate it's also countrable too, with just a nade or queens's ult
Nah, Juno's ult is what makes her meta. Everything else is fine
abilities don't need to get maximum value though. if you're up against a juno and fighting someone and she just auto aims free damage on you what is the counterplay other than just not being there? it can't be dodged, she can't miss, it's just free damage with no risk. you can't have free abilities with no risk because it creates player frustration. i'd much rather they design her a new ability that offers more creativity in terms of allowing her to outplay people but also allow people to outplay her. in every game it's crucial that when a player dies or loses they ask themselves "what could i have done to avoid that" and it be obvious. if it's not then it's not well designed.
Junos ult dethroned Kiriko's ult as far as i know, either have the counter or give up space
@@arinrobinson3898 it can be dodge, just go behind anything, the hitbox is big and the proyectiles are slow.
Like personally, if I see a juno looking the torpedos, as a tank I know I can block them with anything, specially with dva and sigma. If I'm a dps, I know she is an easy target, specially with widow and sombra. If I'm any other character, I just go behind a car or something and they miss. Or use brig shield.
Sorry if I'm defendind the torpedos so much, but I looove fighting that hability so much.
4:09 this isn't really true as a lifeweaver main. There's all sorts of creative stuff you can do with Lifegrip (but actually Petal Platform & Tree of Life are better for this) that even gives offensive value. But, they're pretty niche:
- bringing forward staggered teammate so they enter the fight faster
- sky noon! bringing an ulting cass, soldier, sojourn, etc to your location (usually on your petal platform) and with cassidy specifically you can fly. You can also do this with Earthshatter to great effect.
- Flank into the enemy backline and grip an ulting teammate/your tank to their squishies. This sounds like throwing but on certain maps against certain comps it actually works pretty well, because Lifeweaver actually has pretty good mobility for flanking with Platform + Dash. And while usually he'd be in danger being in the enemy backline, as soon as his Reinhardt joins him he'll probably be able to escape in the chaos.
I would love to see a nerf to Lifegrip's saving ability in exchange for a reduction in cooldown.
4:31 "I don't think 12 second abilities should counter ultimates"
lolwut? Every ult should be a guaranteed kill no matter what skill your enemies have? You want Zarya bubble, all barriers, DM, and hard CC all removed from Overwatch? All of those can easily counter many ultimates. If you're talking specifically Petal Platform into ultimates like Graviton Surge and Terra Surge, then maybe. But it's only really those two interactions that are unbalanced. Grav actually is totally useable against a Lifeweaver so long as you either track his petal cooldown or do a grav that Petal can't save teammates from. You can't activate Petal manually, only by standing on it, so if you chuck your grav on a wall or physically hit an enemy with it they'll be lifted up and won't activate he petal. The only ult that Petal Platform can cancel easily and consistently with little counterplay is Terra Surge.
4:51 His heal isn't super complex because of the auto-aim mechanic, but there's a lot more to it than say Mercy beam. For instance, you can now hold the charge on his heal which allows you to quickly swap to heal from your thorns (which means you're able to use your thorns much more consistently), and there is an actual aiming component to his healing in a few matchups. If you flick your cursor as you release a heal orb, see how it goes in that direction? These orbs will go through terrain, which lets you dance in and out of cover and still heal your team (which would be *impossible* if it was hitscan), and they can even go around certain barriers. If you try to heal your teammate through a sigma shield, the shield blocks it. But it's possible to flick your heal *around* the shield. This also can work for Reinhardt shield, Mauga's Cage Fight, and Rammatra's shield. It doesn't work for Winston bubble.
I reccommend you watch some ReformedRavi and you'll understand more what Lifeweaver's kit can actually be used for.
6:05 hello? it's a support ult. Would you say the same thing about Kitsune Rush, Orbital Ray, and Transcendence?
6:15 Yep, you've definitely never spent time playing Lifeweaver. You should probably avoid talking about the depth of mechanics you don't fully understand. There is a ton of skill expression in the hero, although I won't deny he is a bit of a healbot and kind of sucks, but that just doesn't mean he doesn't have skill expression.
12:35 It just sounds like you don't like defensive utility for the most part. But if supports can't defend their team, what are they supposed to do? should the support role be entirely focused on debuffing the enemy team and buffing their team's offensive utility? I don't think there's anything unfun about supports having the ability to deny the elims of the enemy dps/tank, so long as it's at a healthy level (which it currently is IMO) and the abilities are designed such that they require skill to use effectively.
13:39 I agree that Torpedoes are boring because of the auto-aim. What would be an interesting idea IMO is to make it so that the ability turns your primary fire into the torpedoes for a brief time, and they lock onto enemies but you can rapid fire, so while you still have some auto-aim you have to shoot each player on your screen individually within the given time frame. Make it so that torpedoes can't shoot unless locked on, and won't lock on to a player you've already shot. Maybe buff the ability as compensation, but at that point you've got a much more interesting ability.
15:25 would you say this about Transcendence or Sound Barrier?
Yeah a lot of his Lifeweaver takes sounds like someone that’s only spent a few games on Lifeweaver.
The 12 second ability comment bothered me the most. Ana’s sleep dart has been ruining ults since she was released.
@@GarnetDust24Sleep is a skill shot
Defensive support abilities are usually reactive and are usually just denial abilities made to delete value. Supports should have proactive abilities not ones where you have to react to something then deny it. That's annoying. Lamp, Grip and Suzu are all reactive abilities. They don't belong in this game
@@waterrr6332 petal platform is a skill shot as well. Not nearly as difficult to aim as sleep dart but it’s not a point and click ability.
Waterrr6332 gets it. there's no skill in holding a defensive ability and looking at the ground to deny an ultimate and forcing resources isn't fun to play against. hitting a sleep dart to deny ults was always a skill shot but also could be blocked, baited, dodged, or at the very least much harder to hit. using petal on a grav is nowhere near the same level of frustration.
I know its rich coming from a lifeweaver main but he does have skill expression, not tons but some, if timed right you can black flux with tree aswell platform can be used to save teammates who are slept/stunned, grip while limited can be used for play setting up, his healing while auto aimed like most supports can arc over barriers if done right, you need to play a character a decent amount before passing this much judgment on them
@@Themanwithscoobysnacks I've been playing this game for 8 years at this point I've played every hero. I know all of those things and I don't include very niche arguments. Pull can only pull and there's no creative ways he can use it only niche ways other may benefit. But 99% it's going to be used to pull someone out which is frustrating. Blocking sig ult with tree is fine but it's still not a very interesting ult. And his auto aim heals going over barriers is still niche and extremely limited. He's just not a very interesting hero. I'm not saying you can't find silly combinations with his kit I'm saying it doesn't matter if you rarely get to use them.
@arinrobinson3898 the heal flick and tree techs aren't niche? When playing into shields these are important things i have to be conscious of, pull in the least charitable sense pulls people to you but you aren't considering what other uses the ability has if I was to be uncharitable with speed ring it just speeds people up, but that's not taking into consideration why I'm speeding them, I feel as if yhe only abilities you like are ones you deem are OK but don't take into consideration the other uses of abilities you don't like, you said ana/juno can heal or do damage all support bar mercy can do that? Not really an ana/juno exclusive, it is apparent that you just like those characters and not the others and that's fine but the criticism against them is shallow and doesn't take any thought i feel, you say LW is just a healbot which any support can be that if you only heal except brig maybe, nothing against you ofcourse
@@Themanwithscoobysnacks heal flick around a shield is niche because how often do you get to do that and how specific is it? a lucio boop for instance is a tool. you can boop away, you can boop people into your team, you can boop people off edges, you can boop for burst damage. lucio can do this on every enemy. heal flick requires an enemy with a specific shield and if they don't have one you don't have that tool anymore. so it's niche. when an ability is so easy to do it's extremely limited in what it can do which limits skill expression. just because you are incapable of seeing other possibilities past what he already exists as does not make my critiques of him shallow.
@arinrobinson3898 i can use the Flick when ram or sigma or rein are being played sometimes it works with matrix and orisa spear spin, lucio boop wasn't mentioned by me you haven't tackled anything i previously mentioned apart from saying I'm incapable of seeing past what a character can do when you literally said what an ability did and nothing else that is shallow and a bit hypocritical, landing a sleep dart isn't hard nor skilful using it at the right time on the right target is, you cant say nuh uh to any skillful thing I bring up and then ignore it it's like having a discussion with a brick wall, again I'm not trying to attack you as a person
@@Themanwithscoobysnacks "i can use the Flick when ram or sigma or rein are being played sometimes it works with matrix and orisa spear spin." so it does nothing for ball, hog, JQ, Zarya, doomfist, or winston and it only works sometimes with dva. your "tech" works on less than half the tank roster. it also is a meaningless "tech" that doesn't do anything if you're faced with a dps or support in front of you. congratulations, you just described niche.
most attractive ow player
I've received a lot of comments lately but this one is my favorite thank you!
I really wish that lifeweaver was actually a healthy hero because i love everything about the character and his play style focusing on utility, but it seems like he’d need a severe rework just so he can be buffed without completely destroying the meta :( Do you have any suggestions to rework his kit?
I replied to someone else on ideas so i'll copy it for the most part
life grip has a high cooldown because of it's high value and easy use but people like using abilities in overwatch so high cooldown is kind of the opposite of a good design IMO. i would rework it to be more like threshes lamp in league where it provides a shield and a player needs to interact with it. this would remove the frustration of being pulled when you don't want to. i might also experiment with being able to destroy it as an enemy or perhaps lifeweaver could press e again to activate a secondary effect like damage explosion or something so he has counterplay to people diving him as well. this would make for more interesting choice rather than just holding it waiting to negate someone else's proactive play. anything that would provide more choice to lifeweaver, more control for him to counter play situations, but also give back more control to the players being pulled as well as more control to enemies trying to counter play.
What if suzu could bounce off walls? It would be a tad buff but make it have a little more skill expression
I think suzu is not much different from life grip and lamp which is a problem. simply press E and have limited to no risk at missing and providing immortality that provides a game changing moment. any ability that provides so much value should not be easy to hit and the ground cannot be missed. i'd rather see a focus on her papers and changing her kit around to where her papers are more than just auto aim heals and suzu is replaced by an ability that can cleanse but also a paper that could be used offensively. like toss and try to stick someone with a debuff. this would give her a way to outplay flankers with reasonable margin for error, keep her ability to cleanse, and make it a lot of other abilities matter more. i don't think a cleanse is bad perse but i do think a mass aoe, cleanse all, heal all, immortality all that can't be missed is. if ana or JQ hit a Nade or ult hitting 3 and you could only cleanse 1 then you have player choice but also you give back counter play to JQ. as much as it might hurt kiriko to have an ability like that giving that same ability a way to be offensive would offer more interesting choice in her kit and counterplay to her.
@ so like, what if suzu was a projectile that when hitting a teammate it cleanses and makes them immortal like it is now, maybe it could still bounce off walls? It could be like ana but for teammates
I actually disagree with the notion that Ana is healthy or honest. People don't like Widow because she gets an inordinate amount of leverage for the low risk of hiding by range, People don't like Sombra because she takes away your ability to play the game. Ana does both, and instead of proactively: she uses everything reactively, she doesn't outplay anyone, she hides and then presses E. Baptiste's lamp, as controversial as it is feels weirdly more agreeable to me than being slept or anti'd everytime I make a move, at least it's on a character with a bigger hitbox. When everything is reactive, it makes the game feel slow and boring.
This is just wrong on basically every point. Widow is low risk high reward but the difference between her and ana is that if you get ontop of ana she has to hit the skill shot of sleep to win whereas wid can hit the skill shot to win but also has a free escape tool in grapple. The difference between sombra and ana is that ana's sleep is telegraphed well meanwhile sombra can take you completely off guard bc she can be anywhere and ana has to hit the sleep meanwhile hack aims for you. The difference between sleep and nade compared to lamp is that you can actually outplay sleep and nade meanwhile with lamp you HAVE to break it in order for the bap to be killable again you have 1 option to beat lamp meanwhile you have a ton of options to beat sleep and nade especially on the tank role.
@@mc_3232 To add to your point... I play a lot of Ana and she is a good mix of proactive and reactive. Sleep/Nade are reactive if you get dived on, however the sleep/nade are best used proactively in a team fight where multiple people can be anti'd and you can heal some of your team in the process too. As you say, sleeps aren't that easy to hit either.
I have a problem with Sombra stopping people playing the game cos she has an easy out and great mobility, Ana has nothing. She has to use her kit to kill or be killed, others can run away. I think Ana is a great hero, fairly difficult to play overall, but you can get really good value from her the better you are but you need to hit your shots and cooldowns manually without any help to be effective at her.
A good Ana is the ultimate 'fuck around and find out' hero... she needs to be a bit OP in some respects cos without it she'd be the worst character in the game.
As for Widow... yeah, just getting one shot from across the map doesn't feel good - I have a little less of an issue with Widow vs Sombra cos you actually have to hit the shot BUT still it really feels bad when the enemy team has an uncontested widow.
Pls getter a better mic