Nice, honest work Jon. I’m with you on the ‘if there’s any doubt…’ bit, that often just isn’t suitable to the reality. Sensibly pushing your own envelope is beneficial, especially when you find things you don’t like, but in any case it’s about having a plan already in place for how you’d react to something like this and developing it if/when something changes. That's the wisdom you used here!
Good decision made. Gotta love the line from that safety sense ‘many VFR into IMC accidents could have been avoided by not commencing the flight.’ I think they could change that many to ALL.
Good call. 'Gently' testing our limits is how we SAFELY gain experience. FWIW ... In my career as an airline pilot, we usually spent at least some small part of our departure briefings to cover 'In case of an immediate Return...' It might just be a quick mention of the runway that was in use for arrivals, or any special conditions we'd face (i.e. overweight landing? available runways and lengths, kinds of approaches and / or any particular frequencies we might suddenly need. This helps reduce that 'sudden increase in workload' you experienced. Anyway - all in all I think you handled this well and it is a good example of how we grow as pilots.
Thanks. Yes, considering a return in the departure brief is a really good suggestion. It would normally be part of my pre-flight planning, but probably worth committing it to memory before take off.
Did almost the exact same thing last month departing Deauville for the UK, due to being delayed by a runway closure. The weather deteriorated as forecast, but should have remained VFR. So we took off to check the visibility, we entered cloud at soon after coasting out and decided to return to Deauville. Both of us in the aircraft have IR(R) that we exercise the privileges of regularly, but as you mentioned it’s invalid in France. The only consequence on this occasion was an extra night in Honfleur, which wasn’t to awful.
Out of interest did you look at the 414/414 low level forecast which would have given you a brief including base of clouds , type and tops. METAR and TAF are only valid for the control zone around the airfield reporting and there isa lot of ground between them in a lot of cases especially at weekend when some are closed. Well done for turning back safely and getting back down on the ground but there is another subject here covering Weather Briefings and understanding the wider weather information that’s available, including the F214/F215 in the UK and the F414/F415 in Northern Europe that are worthwhile consulting for that long trip other than just METAR and TAF mentioned.
Sometimes , you have to take a look if it’s not crazy bad . The problem is mentally refiguring for an unexpected return….the first thing that goes with a bit of saturation is the hearing ! Anyway, you are still alive so it was the right call
Great video. The CAA Safety Sense Leaflet is similar in its advice to the phrase you don’t like isn’t it : they say many accidents VFR into IMC could have been avoided if the flights didn’t take off. In fact quite obviously 100% of them!!! As you say, flying safe is about mitigating risk; but you can’t avoid it all together. Lovely video.
Another potential issue with the I'll have a look plan, is the weather might close in behind you, making turning back no better an option than going forward.
Yep - that's always a big one to consider. The weather trend was an improvement behind me, and so it would have only got better on this day, hence why the plan worked.
Jon had similar a local flight from Gloucester to Halfpenny Green. It was said to be 1800 ft cloud base. I took off and by the time I got to 1400 ft it I was touching the bottom of the clouds. I immediately done a 180 and returned to base for a coffee. Sometimes I feel I restrict myself to much but that just reinforced my personal minimum
Good to see the turnback decision made promptly. I disagree about the old adage 'if in doubt there is no doubt'. Plenty of flights when I have no doubt the weather will be suitable and off I go. BUT .... sometimes I've got as far as the walkround and begun to doubt that the actual weather is suitable. So there is that moment of indecision - should I go or not. If I feel that element of doubt I scrub. As my erstwhile Instructor used to say, "There's always another day." We do this for enjoyment so let's enjoy it, not tempt fate, Fate is the Hunter.
it was a good decision to turn back. Sometimes in flight with the motivation of the passengers to arrive at destination on time, the pilote take a bad decision to resume the navigation. It 's very professionnel to schedule the flight in a better conditions! we have to do and it' the responsibility of the captain!
We're all human and even though I haven't flown for ten years, I remember doing the same thing. In particular I remember, as a student on a cross country, returning to my home airfield when the weather was more questionable than reported en-route even though I could see that it was clear ahead; I was worried that I would go to my destination and then not be able to get back that day. They said I made a good decision and I did return safely and maintained VMC, but in reality I think I should have continued to my destination and handled it in some other way if it became too cloudy to get back that day.
Brilliant video yet again would be really interesting if you could do a video of all the apps you use for Weather and flight planning. The weather is a really big concern of mine and I’m always 50/50 whether to go or not
Part of gaining experience is that we will have a look, safely, as you did. We who have instrument ratings, experience, and currency may make the mistake of not separating a VFR mission from an IFR mission. What makes IFR safer than VFR is all the legal and planned airspeed, altitude, and procedural track. The transition from a VFR mission to IFR can be quite dangerous. Turning back was a wise decision. One point I might make is when we are planning VFR without an IFR laid in backup, we see better and generally are safer lower than just under the ceiling. Visibility is what makes VFR safe. The extra altitude that puts us in worse visibility is not safe. Good job.
"If there is any doubt, there is no doubt" is a great adage for people that are naturally inclined to overconfidence and are only going to feel doubt if there is a real problem. If you are naturally cautious, you are going to doubt everything and need to learn to analyse your doubts and determine whether they are actually a problem. The CAA guidance seems particularly unhelpful. Of course it is safer not to fly. It is always safer not to fly. Every single in-flight incident (not just "many") would have been avoided by not leaving the ground. What is the point of saying that?
I tend to agree with this .. IF one's ONLY motivation is to have zero accidents then the best way to achieve that is to have no flights. d'oh ... Risk Management is the One Big Skill that all pilots need to develop and hone. As my boss used to say: "It's why I pay you guys the big bucks." ha ha.
Jon, good decision as I could see you were only at about 1,300 ft. One point though about the Le Touquet lunch closing hours. It is no problem, I have flown in there several times in that period. Just jot down the French words for all the parts of a circuit. In fact, I have found that although many of the French pilots like to speak their language, many do respond in English.
You said you had planned to go and have a look at the weather. Did you rehearse in your mind before you took off your plan B if you encountered the poor weather? One thing the CAA never seems to reflect is that just behind you is an area of good weather that you have only seconds before have just left. Yes, turn round judiciously as they preach but then retreat to the good weather and enter an orbit to let the adrenaline die down and plan the next step. The 5 Ps.
Thanks Gordon. The turn back was prepared for - ie, which direction I would turn (due to airspace/other airfields). There's not a lot of airspace (verticlaly/horizontally) to manoeuvre in around there, due to Paris TMA and other airfields,
jon im flying at one of your local aerodromes as a student. I think we could benefit from videos specific to emergencies in the circuit which is what i am currently on. There aren't many videos out there specific to the uk and specific steps to pass each emergency. thanks
Yes. I don't have the time or the money at the moment to study for it. The UK IR is a pretty difficult, time consuming rating to obtain, as opposed to getting one in the US.
@@TheFlyingReporter For the cost of a UK IMC / IR(R) one could fly to the States and do a "full" IR. I did it the other way round and got a US CPL IR then converted it to an IMC in the UK before taking the IR exam. Loads cheaper plus a lot more flying experience and hence confidence.
I think, as you hinted, there's a big difference compared to the typical VFR into IMC incidents. Your problem is a legal issue rather than a competency issue. You are trained to fly into IMC, but you aren't allowed to in France. Therefore if you did get engulfed, you'd climb to your MSA and then get vectors to an aerodrome above your minimums and land. However this prospect is not great either given the paperwork and legal issues after landing. Therefore the decision making process to fly is probably similar although the consequence likely to be license related rather than an incident. Jon - get studying and get the CBIR!
Thanks Christopher. I appreciate that there is a difference there. I think the decision making is the same, because I can't plan to make use of the skill I have. My plan B was to return to point of departure - the weather trend favoured this. In a VFR into IMC situation, if a 180 didn't work, then I'd declare a Pan and climb to MSA...unfortunately that would be the Paris class A, and restricted airspace which would cause a whole lot of problems and consequences of course. Having the skill and not being able to use it legally is frustrating, but unplanned IMC/IFR is risky in itself isn't it. I will at some point get the CBIR, but money, time and the needs of my family don't allow it at the moment.
@@TheFlyingReporter Ah, I agree, I'd naively assumed there was no airspace around, class A would make this a big infringement. Keep up the good work and content!
Jon I think you acted sensibly...sure you could have not gone, but you went with a contingency plan and you didn't hesitate to execute it. On the subject of getting flustered after the turn back - what do you think of building a hold (orbit) into the plan? In this case, something like if I have to turn back within ten minutes of the departure, I will hold at (point Echo?) while I set up and brief the approach. Buy yourself some time to compose? Just a thought.
Yeh. Good idea. Not a lot of space around there. Echo would be a bad place to hold as it’s the entry/exit point for the airfield. But in principle and somewhere with more space, yes.
Of course, if I had the time, money and my family didn't need me so much at the moment. It's something for when Bertie is a little older and my finances allow.
So would going in the opposite direction for a bit to by some time to clear the head and mentally set up for the landing not posable? I mean if the cloud is only on your planed root, if the cloud was all around well yes probity should have stayed on the ground. Just trying to learn more from this, not being critical.
Thought provoking video as usual, thanks. Not understanding part of the RT, there’s a word that sounds like “concrete”. I’d be obliged if you could put me out of my misery by elucidating what this word is.
Nice, honest work Jon. I’m with you on the ‘if there’s any doubt…’ bit, that often just isn’t suitable to the reality. Sensibly pushing your own envelope is beneficial, especially when you find things you don’t like, but in any case it’s about having a plan already in place for how you’d react to something like this and developing it if/when something changes. That's the wisdom you used here!
Good decision made. Gotta love the line from that safety sense ‘many VFR into IMC accidents could have been avoided by not commencing the flight.’ I think they could change that many to ALL.
Good call. 'Gently' testing our limits is how we SAFELY gain experience. FWIW ... In my career as an airline pilot, we usually spent at least some small part of our departure briefings to cover 'In case of an immediate Return...' It might just be a quick mention of the runway that was in use for arrivals, or any special conditions we'd face (i.e. overweight landing? available runways and lengths, kinds of approaches and / or any particular frequencies we might suddenly need. This helps reduce that 'sudden increase in workload' you experienced. Anyway - all in all I think you handled this well and it is a good example of how we grow as pilots.
Thanks. Yes, considering a return in the departure brief is a really good suggestion. It would normally be part of my pre-flight planning, but probably worth committing it to memory before take off.
Did almost the exact same thing last month departing Deauville for the UK, due to being delayed by a runway closure. The weather deteriorated as forecast, but should have remained VFR. So we took off to check the visibility, we entered cloud at soon after coasting out and decided to return to Deauville.
Both of us in the aircraft have IR(R) that we exercise the privileges of regularly, but as you mentioned it’s invalid in France.
The only consequence on this occasion was an extra night in Honfleur, which wasn’t to awful.
Out of interest did you look at the 414/414 low level forecast which would have given you a brief including base of clouds , type and tops. METAR and TAF are only valid for the control zone around the airfield reporting and there isa lot of ground between them in a lot of cases especially at weekend when some are closed. Well done for turning back safely and getting back down on the ground but there is another subject here covering Weather Briefings and understanding the wider weather information that’s available, including the F214/F215 in the UK and the F414/F415 in Northern Europe that are worthwhile consulting for that long trip other than just METAR and TAF mentioned.
Thanks Jon for an excellent de-brief! I always find your videos interesting and there is a lot of food for thought in this one in respect of TEM!
An excellent debrief, Jon, thank you for sharing. Your honesty is much appreciated 👍👏👏👏
Well done on your decision making 👌.
Sometimes , you have to take a look if it’s not crazy bad . The problem is mentally refiguring for an unexpected return….the first thing that goes with a bit of saturation is the hearing ! Anyway, you are still alive so it was the right call
Excellent decision Jon.
Good call! thank you for sharing.
Great video. The CAA Safety Sense Leaflet is similar in its advice to the phrase you don’t like isn’t it : they say many accidents VFR into IMC could have been avoided if the flights didn’t take off. In fact quite obviously 100% of them!!! As you say, flying safe is about mitigating risk; but you can’t avoid it all together.
Lovely video.
Honest and really useful video … will serve as a reminder to many
Another potential issue with the I'll have a look plan, is the weather might close in behind you, making turning back no better an option than going forward.
Yep - that's always a big one to consider. The weather trend was an improvement behind me, and so it would have only got better on this day, hence why the plan worked.
Jon had similar a local flight from Gloucester to Halfpenny Green. It was said to be 1800 ft cloud base. I took off and by the time I got to 1400 ft it I was touching the bottom of the clouds. I immediately done a 180 and returned to base for a coffee. Sometimes I feel I restrict myself to much but that just reinforced my personal minimum
Good to see the turnback decision made promptly. I disagree about the old adage 'if in doubt there is no doubt'. Plenty of flights when I have no doubt the weather will be suitable and off I go. BUT .... sometimes I've got as far as the walkround and begun to doubt that the actual weather is suitable. So there is that moment of indecision - should I go or not. If I feel that element of doubt I scrub. As my erstwhile Instructor used to say, "There's always another day." We do this for enjoyment so let's enjoy it, not tempt fate, Fate is the Hunter.
it was a good decision to turn back. Sometimes in flight with the motivation of the passengers to arrive at destination on time, the pilote take a bad decision to resume the navigation. It 's very professionnel to schedule the flight in a better conditions! we have to do and it' the responsibility of the captain!
We're all human and even though I haven't flown for ten years, I remember doing the same thing. In particular I remember, as a student on a cross country, returning to my home airfield when the weather was more questionable than reported en-route even though I could see that it was clear ahead; I was worried that I would go to my destination and then not be able to get back that day. They said I made a good decision and I did return safely and maintained VMC, but in reality I think I should have continued to my destination and handled it in some other way if it became too cloudy to get back that day.
Great choice Jon.
I always check airport webcams in flight or call someone on the ground to help when making a decision.
Brilliant video yet again would be really interesting if you could do a video of all the apps you use for Weather and flight planning. The weather is a really big concern of mine and I’m always 50/50 whether to go or not
If only there was a ready made video partly on that subject ruclips.net/video/vAK92bPbW7Y/видео.html.
Part of gaining experience is that we will have a look, safely, as you did. We who have instrument ratings, experience, and currency may make the mistake of not separating a VFR mission from an IFR mission. What makes IFR safer than VFR is all the legal and planned airspeed, altitude, and procedural track. The transition from a VFR mission to IFR can be quite dangerous. Turning back was a wise decision. One point I might make is when we are planning VFR without an IFR laid in backup, we see better and generally are safer lower than just under the ceiling. Visibility is what makes VFR safe. The extra altitude that puts us in worse visibility is not safe. Good job.
Thanks Jimmy
Would you do your full instrument rating Jon?
Jon answered that in a previous video. Time and financial constraints conspire against.
"If there is any doubt, there is no doubt" is a great adage for people that are naturally inclined to overconfidence and are only going to feel doubt if there is a real problem. If you are naturally cautious, you are going to doubt everything and need to learn to analyse your doubts and determine whether they are actually a problem.
The CAA guidance seems particularly unhelpful. Of course it is safer not to fly. It is always safer not to fly. Every single in-flight incident (not just "many") would have been avoided by not leaving the ground. What is the point of saying that?
I tend to agree with this .. IF one's ONLY motivation is to have zero accidents then the best way to achieve that is to have no flights. d'oh ... Risk Management is the One Big Skill that all pilots need to develop and hone. As my boss used to say: "It's why I pay you guys the big bucks." ha ha.
Jon, good decision as I could see you were only at about 1,300 ft. One point though about the Le Touquet lunch closing hours. It is no problem, I have flown in there several times in that period. Just jot down the French words for all the parts of a circuit. In fact, I have found that although many of the French pilots like to speak their language, many do respond in English.
Video coming on this subject
A quote from Jimmy at Jimmys World. "If you have time to spare, go by air" :) . Hinting at the weather delays of GA flight.
I keep saying that myself at the moment. Lots of time being wasted by the weather.
You said you had planned to go and have a look at the weather. Did you rehearse in your mind before you took off your plan B if you encountered the poor weather? One thing the CAA never seems to reflect is that just behind you is an area of good weather that you have only seconds before have just left. Yes, turn round judiciously as they preach but then retreat to the good weather and enter an orbit to let the adrenaline die down and plan the next step. The 5 Ps.
Thanks Gordon. The turn back was prepared for - ie, which direction I would turn (due to airspace/other airfields). There's not a lot of airspace (verticlaly/horizontally) to manoeuvre in around there, due to Paris TMA and other airfields,
jon im flying at one of your local aerodromes as a student. I think we could benefit from videos specific to emergencies in the circuit which is what i am currently on. There aren't many videos out there specific to the uk and specific steps to pass each emergency. thanks
Every flight is a learning flight.
Are you going to publish the EFATO discussion you had with Amanda Harrison?
Yes. I’m typically filming 3-6 months ahead of publication.
@@TheFlyingReporterokay, thanks. Amanda took me up in the Tiger Moth at Duxford. Her solo to Darwin adventure was amazing!
Can you get a full IFR rating that is acceptable everywhere?
Yes. I don't have the time or the money at the moment to study for it. The UK IR is a pretty difficult, time consuming rating to obtain, as opposed to getting one in the US.
@@TheFlyingReporter For the cost of a UK IMC / IR(R) one could fly to the States and do a "full" IR. I did it the other way round and got a US CPL IR then converted it to an IMC in the UK before taking the IR exam. Loads cheaper plus a lot more flying experience and hence confidence.
I think, as you hinted, there's a big difference compared to the typical VFR into IMC incidents. Your problem is a legal issue rather than a competency issue. You are trained to fly into IMC, but you aren't allowed to in France. Therefore if you did get engulfed, you'd climb to your MSA and then get vectors to an aerodrome above your minimums and land. However this prospect is not great either given the paperwork and legal issues after landing. Therefore the decision making process to fly is probably similar although the consequence likely to be license related rather than an incident. Jon - get studying and get the CBIR!
Thanks Christopher. I appreciate that there is a difference there. I think the decision making is the same, because I can't plan to make use of the skill I have. My plan B was to return to point of departure - the weather trend favoured this. In a VFR into IMC situation, if a 180 didn't work, then I'd declare a Pan and climb to MSA...unfortunately that would be the Paris class A, and restricted airspace which would cause a whole lot of problems and consequences of course. Having the skill and not being able to use it legally is frustrating, but unplanned IMC/IFR is risky in itself isn't it. I will at some point get the CBIR, but money, time and the needs of my family don't allow it at the moment.
@@TheFlyingReporter Ah, I agree, I'd naively assumed there was no airspace around, class A would make this a big infringement. Keep up the good work and content!
Jon I think you acted sensibly...sure you could have not gone, but you went with a contingency plan and you didn't hesitate to execute it. On the subject of getting flustered after the turn back - what do you think of building a hold (orbit) into the plan? In this case, something like if I have to turn back within ten minutes of the departure, I will hold at (point Echo?) while I set up and brief the approach. Buy yourself some time to compose? Just a thought.
Yeh. Good idea. Not a lot of space around there. Echo would be a bad place to hold as it’s the entry/exit point for the airfield. But in principle and somewhere with more space, yes.
surely all VFR into IMC accidents would be avoided if the flight never commences?
🤣
Is it worth getting a full icao recognised instrument rating since you flown a few times into France now?
Of course, if I had the time, money and my family didn't need me so much at the moment. It's something for when Bertie is a little older and my finances allow.
@@TheFlyingReporter Makes absolute sense.
That’s why the meteorologists call it the “weather.” They’re not sure “whether” it’ll change 😀😀
So would going in the opposite direction for a bit to by some time to clear the head and mentally set up for the landing not posable? I mean if the cloud is only on your planed root, if the cloud was all around well yes probity should have stayed on the ground. Just trying to learn more from this, not being critical.
It’s pretty tight around there airspace wise. Also, with the weather so poor was keen to get on the ground. Weather to the south and east not great.
Back for an early cuppa, result.
Hindsight is always 20/20 Telling someone they should never have taken off because they encountered weather on their route, is just ignorance.
Thought provoking video as usual, thanks. Not understanding part of the RT, there’s a word that sounds like “concrete”. I’d be obliged if you could put me out of my misery by elucidating what this word is.
It was concrete (runway) they may have grass as well.
@@gordanmilne7034 Thanks for that.
All accidents could be avoided by not commencing the flight.
🤣
I have 14,000 hours. The decisions are the hardest things.
Why can't you just let the autopilot fly the plane? If cruise missiles can navigate themselves why can't planes?
That’s why the meteorologists call it the “weather.” They’re not sure “whether” it’ll change 😀😀