OMG... That too me back to the late 70's/early 80's. When I was an apprentice aircraft fitter at The College of Air Training, at Hamble. We only went out on the airfield for a ground engine run. I was sat in the rear of a PA.28. Just as we started the engine, I accidentally set off the fire extinguisher, under the pilots seat, with my foot, with very similar results to your video. It was the fastest evacuation of an aircraft you would ever see!! We initially thought it was an engine problem. It took me a while to live that down. 🙄
Co2 is five times less efficient than BCF and is likely to knock you out before it puts the fire out. I taught firefighting procedures to more than 55,000 cabin crew and pilots to multiple airlines. Very different procedure on a large airliner. I now teach helicopter pilots and private pilots. My advice as we tend to fly at much lower altitude, is land as soon as possible, evacuate and if without endangering yourself and you feel confident, use the extinguisher to try and extinguish the fire. Oh, and I am an ex-colleague of Marvin.
That's not taking into account on how much more heavy Halon is compared to CO2. Halon will penetrate down the gaps in the aircraft. I was happy to see the back of Halon in data centres but in aircraft not so much
Co2 isn't an option for light and ultralight. This will be the reason the caa is silent on the matter. We're in a phase where we are banning stuff without viable alternatives which GA historically has been resistant too.
This is a good video. I have often thought of the hazards of using a fire extinguisher in a GA aircraft - thank you for covering this important subject
Classic CAA. Always eager to regulate & prosecute, clam up at difficult questions. Given the difficulty of even using a half mil chart in a typical spam can, the chances of accessing & operating any sort of extinguisher while maintaining control of the aircraft are pretty remote. I'd opt for the immediate forced landing.
I was a part time fire fighter for 21 years, so I found this very interesting, It brought back fond memories of my training which was usually at a local refinery here in Pembrokeshire.
Wow. Great demonstration, I’m regretful that I’ve had a powder extinguisher in the cabin for years and have never seen a demonstration of its use. What’s illustrative to me is how you could only tolerate being in the cockpit with the powder smoke for a few seconds. Imagine trying to land. 7:37
On ships we're not allowed to use Dry Power in enclosed compartments unless we are dressed in a full firefighting suit with full ff breathing apparatus, and on air, for this very reason. (An EEBD is NOT suitable -thats an emergency escape device only). We're not even allow in compartments that have had CO2 discharged in them AT ALL until the fire is confirmed as out and the compartment has been fully ventilated and the air tested. Having done a lot of shipboard firefighting training, the dangers of Dry Powder and CO2 extinguishers are drummed into us pretty much from day 1.
I had a 5kg dry powder extinguisher discharge itself in a truck cabin at night while I was travelling on a motorway. It was not a pleasant experience. I had no idea what was going on. I thought the truck was on fire. I ended up in hospital with breathing difficulties and eye irritation.
8:05 glad you mention this. Dry powder fire extinguishers can total an automobile from corrosion. So even an accidental discharge could be a major problem.
Good to see this topic covered. I was on the Fire Crew at Fairoaks back in the mid 1980's to the early 1990's and trained with all the then current mediums for fire fighting. It is fascinating to note here, that even back then, we were 'on notice' from the CAA that HALON was 'about to be banned' and was on a short term limited extension as nothing else quite like it had been developed for use in aircraft. It contains a serious amount of CFC and therefore, even back then, known to be harmful to the environment and in close proximity to people, not at all good for you! However, it was...is, very effective! I am amazed that it is still, 'about to be banned'!! That tells me that despite huge advances in so many areas of aviation, motor sport and other specialist areas where technology and time has been invested to find new ways of doing things.....this issue has been left on a shelf rather too long! The use of dry powder was always discussed and trained for, as the last resort if in any form of confined space and we always knew that should you let one off in a cockpit or cabin area, in flight, it would likely be game over. We hated them unless we were fully in the open and could safely retreat from the powder. Also, we were always cautioned on using it on aircraft fires on the ground as the exceptional damage caused to anything the powder got into, would likely end up writing off the aircraft, unless that was the likely scenario anyway and there was no alternative available. It's worth noting the same holds true for your car!! C02, whilst robbing you of precious oxygen if used in quantity in a confined space, (triangle of fire!?) was possibly a better option to carry. Although there is a small risk of ice burns if the extinguisher is mishandled during deployment. Obviously Fire Crews on the ground will deploy foam as well, for a large number of applications involving an aircraft incident, but that is not a practical option for 'in flight' fires either! Extraordinary the CAA failed to even respond to your requests..... again, it's as though this issue has just been shelved for years in the hope it might not come up at all.....? It will be very interesting to see what the industry turns to as a replacement for HALON, if it is indeed actually withdrawn from next year....🤔 As a post script: it is also worth considering what will be recommended for use when your lithium ion battery pack in your iPad or phone, or laptop, goes 'pop' mid flight! There is an ever increasing reliance on lithium ion batteries in every electronic device and even some aircraft systems and propulsion units. Who is working on that one with the CAA!? Those things are seriously nasty when they decide to let go and the thought of it happening in the cockpit or cabin of a light aircraft or helicopter is the stuff of nightmares.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. I also vaguely remember fire training lessons from the 90s that essentially said, "This is what a HALON extinguisher looks like. If you see one, report it, because it probably shouldn't be there". I'm dismayed to learn that they are still approved for GA. Great question re lithium ion batteries too. The CAA really does need to get a grip of these issues and provide some contemporary advice.
@@Fig330 Thanks for the reply! Yes, it does seem from John's experience in trying to get the CAA on board while making this film, that he has opened a can of worms! They clearly had nothing ready to offer and were caught napping. Fighting a fire in a cockpit while aloft will always be a massive drama and best avoided!! 🤣, but if it comes down to it, I personally might go the C02 route and pray! On the ground is different if you can vacate the aircraft. Again, to minimise damage, C02 might be the better option for knockdown power without unnecessary extra damage being done to the systems if the fire is small and limited in size. Other than that, you should be insured and it's time to run away and wait for a grown up in a big friendly red truck to arrive. Lithium ion batteries are already a huge challenge for fire and rescue services. The nature of the way they just will not die easily once they have let go, is staggering. I have seen experimental giant blankets used for car fires where they try to smother the entire fire by covering the car and deploying foam underneath the blanket. It's quite a big thing to manage, so maybe not much use on an aircraft! I don't know what works best in these cases but have seen footage of car fires that just don't go out unless completely smothered with AFFF. That might be all there is. Hopefully, Johns excellent film will draw a response from the CAA on best advice for 2024 going forward.....🤞🏻🤔🫤
Excellent video. Thanks for highlighting this. How many of us give this much thought? Possibly not many. I know that all i did was check the fire extinguisher for mounting , security, and in date. This was never brought up in my flying training years ago. This has certainly opened my eyes to what if?? Very disappointing that the CAA did not offer up any advice or anyone for comment! Thank you
Very helpful video but there is one thing I can add to this. During my multi engine flight training in the US, my instructor hit the dry chemical fire ext. mounted to the front of the copilots seat with his heal. The pin had been missing for some time and it went off for about 2 seconds. The nozzle was pointed up and it filled the front of the cockpit quickly. The windshield, charged with static electric charge, attracted the powder and it stuck there. Now we could not see out because of the powder covering the windshield. No problem; just use the instruments. That was not possible because the vacuum powered gyros had caused a static electric charge on the glass of the faces and they too wore covered with the powder. I used the side windows until the instructor cleaned the windshield which was no easy task.
I knew someone stationed at RAF Syerston, and he told me that they had no choice but to scrap most of the G109’s as there was no paper trail on the parts that got swapped from one aircraft to another. They couldn’t guarantee the age of the parts that got swapped or if they were time expired. A real pity as the 109’s were a good step up for the Air Cadets to a powered aircraft.
Thanks for this Jon. I am sure someone has said it but often I find fire extinguishers are either hard to get to or/and in cradles that are easily knocked open. The result, a loose fire extinguisher that could get under the pedals or jam other control systems. I did have the use of the extinguisher mentioned back in my training but it was for breaking the glass on the VSI (with the important proviso that you remove the needle too to stop reverse readings!) if you had a static air blockage/issue. I hope the extinguisher will always remain unused in its secure cradle and I wish others the same too!
A lot of food for thought there Jon, thanks for bringing this out. I didn't know the CAA was banning Halon next year. It's what our club aircraft carries...
Shame you didn’t touch on the option of Water Mist fire extinguishers. Suitable for all fire types except metal and yes it can be used on fuel and electrical fires below 1000V. The deionised water and fine particle size makes it safe. As the cabin water mist trials showed after the Manchester disaster another benefit of water mist is the knocking back of temperature and smoke. It’s also way cheaper and more environmentally friendly than the alternatives. The engineers will be happy if you use one, as it leaves no residue. During COVID several airlines installed water mist extinguishers in the cabin when acting as freighters carrying boxes of PPE in the cabin. Maybe worth raising with CAA when you meet them.
All three of the aircraft I flew had the fire extinguisher behind the rear seats. I don’t think I could have reached them in flight so I assumed they were for small post crash fires.
All very interesting and a great reminder that none of these types of extinguisher (Halon / BCF / CO2 / Dry Powder) should be used in enclosed spaces such as a light aircraft cockpit. They may well kill the fire, but they will also kill you. Not a great result. No mention of AFFF (Aqueous Fire Fighting Foam) or similars though? There are a number of these types of extinguisher available, and they can be used on any type of fire. They make a (watery foamy) mess, but nothing toxic or hard to clean up. Trying to fight a fire in a small and confined aircraft cockpit presents more issues though, especially if you are solo. You have to actually fly the aeroplane at the same time as well. Perhaps less thought should be given to using the fire extinguishers available, and more thought on getting on the ground asap? Side slipping to loose altitude quickly (and keep any flames to one side), is one strategy, and there will be many others to get you on the ground and away from the fire. The thing is, think about it before hand. Rehearse what you would do. Think about different eventualities and possible outcomes. Chances are it will never happen, but being mentally prepared means you have a better chance of surviving.
Very thought provoking video, Jon. I can see the aviation community will benefit from your passion for flight mixed with your journalistic experience. I'm looking forward to hearing the response from the CAA and trust you will continue to push them for one. Also, as a veteran of Shawbury Tower, it's always good to see Sleap represented. Great advice from Marvin. Another example of mixing expertise for the greater good.
An excellent video providing great information to the GA community, I was an instructor at Redhill back in the mid 80’s, we where tasked with providing our own fire cover using the airport fire truck while Bristows had their own fire vehicle. We all had a two day course every 18 months if memory serves via one of the instructors at Gatwick. Our training highlighted all the points you raised during this presentation. Well done and best of luck with the CAA, I already know what they will say as their lawyers won’t allow them to make a definitive statement on this but something like, “All aircraft fires are different and each aircraft would add to the variables involved so no one procedure would cover all eventualities, our advice would be to land as soon as possible and use the fire extinguisher as needed.” That’s my guess?
Dry powder, although cheap will make a right mess. Afterwards any damp will mix with powder and corrode plugs in electrical circuits. Also someone told me gives you the trots. Halon is better but costly. If plastic burning the CO2 force blows the soot all over the place. Have used all at some point. Any smoke in cockpit hit master switch off.
Dunno about diarrhea. I used to service and repair these things. Handle them enough and you will get used to the powder and be able to breath with one going off in a room while not wearing a mask. Bit like not having to cough when having a cigarette. The silica in the powder will however eat at your lungs and leave you hospitalised with pneumothorax
Thanks, Jon, for this very informative & valuable lesson on one of those critical areas that, ironically, are taken for granted but not properly understood.
Great report. I've known about this issue for years now, but it needs more traction to get pilots briefed. It would have to be pretty dire situation for me to use any extinguisher in the air. I was taught to remove heat (turn electrics off), and/or fuel(Fuel shut off) and get on the ground ASAP. Which, will depend on the type of fire. Marvins advice is good. I would also urge pilots, especially renters, to be familiar with the extinguishers. I noticed you fumbled removing the pin from that Dry Powder extingisher and needed to be prompted (I suspect the first time you have seen that type). BTW CO2 also creates a white-out
Great video Jon, highlighting an important, latent hazard to all GA pilots. It was disappointing that the CAA neglected to engage with you on this topic, let’s hope AOPA make some headway with them during their forthcoming meeting. Keep up the good work! 👏
It’s amazing what I don’t know and knowing some of what I don’t know makes me wonder about what else I don’t know. Thanks for helping me be a little bit wiser.
Good video. I've often not relished the idea of deploying a powder-based extinguisher in a cockpit. Even with short bursts, I'd probably end up with compromised vision which would make flying and landing a lot more difficult.
I’ve always considered the most important use of the extinguisher was , following a forced landing, in a crash. Even if the door had been cracked on the way down it might be inoperable after everything stopped! The bottom of the cylinder could be used to get through the acrylic, and/or smash the door open. It’s pretty tough. Then used , if fuel from the wings has ignited , as advertised ,to enable the pilot to make a successful escape.
Thanks David. I personally didn't know when I'd use it. Most electrical fires will be extinguished by cutting the power. I think there are some gaps in knowledge and understanding.
I've run through the checklist/drill multiple times, and had a vague sense that actually using an extinguisher in the cockpit of a 172 would be... suboptimal, but it's very helpful to see one used. I'll have to check the type in the aircraft I'm training in, but it's good to have some sense of what to expect if an extreme situation warranted the use of an extinguisher rather than being surprised on top of the cabin fire while in the air. Great idea to check into this and a very helpful demonstration! Thanks!
Great video and valuable information. I remember doing a CAA fire and rescue course at Sandown Airport in the early 90’s which included using all the fire extinguishers and AFFF. Great fun but fantastic experience which I carry with me while flying in NZ 👍
In fact Halon does not take away oxygen, but just displaces air from a confined space, and this of course may lead to asphyxiation. Nevertheless halon is perhaps the most effective extinguishing agent and the safest to use in aircraft.
I never thought of this …….. so if there is a fire in the cockpit master switch off vents closed, throw my water bottle at it and hope for the best 😂😂😂😂
That wreck is a Grob 109 Motor Glider :-). Great video on this neglected subject. Brilliant piece of advice for in-cockpit fire, get it on the ground and hand it back to the insurance company. I keep one of these in the cockpit: StaySafe 5in1 Fire Extinguisher, It's got good reviews and is supposed to be non-toxic etc. I'd only let it off in the cockpit as a last resort.
I had my old TR7 car caught fire in cabin, if that happened in a aircraft you would be dead in 10 seconds. I would hit the maser switch off straight away. Did it once in 152, landing light switch was smoking and welded on.. I think you have to assume any extinguisher for external use.
As always, legislation mending something which isn’t broken. Probably a good idea to stock up on BCFs before 2026. I’ve been told this week by my maintenance company that, as of the 1st Jan 25, carbon monoxide detectors are becoming mandatory and part of the aircraft annual.
I have aquired a couple of BCF/Halon extinguishers over the past couple of years with the intention of fitting one in the aircraft I'm currently building. Why on earth there is a blanket ban for use in GA aircraft supposedly from the end of 2025 makes no sense. A better solution would be either to state that once the extinguisher has become lifex or been discharged it cannot be refilled or reconditioned and returned to service. That would promote a gradual replacement of all the BCF/Halon extinguishers fitted in GA aircraft with modern equivalents and those lifex would be have the contents recycled for remaining military or other authorised use. Yes, BCF/Halon isnt good for the planet, but at the end of the day the potential saving of a life by discharging a single extinguisher shouldnt be considered a crime. As ex-RAF groundcrew, I'm familiar with all the benefits and hazards of using most types of extinguishers and believe all civvy aircrew should have a basic training on the correct identification and use of fire extinguishers.
What about "Clean Agent" fire extinguishers? These are generally sold as the replacement for Halon promising to be non-corrosive to electricals and hopefully our lungs. They look in videos to produce little to no dust cloud, would be interesting if the CAA could clarify if these are the intended replacement to Halon for GA...
The Wreck is an ex Air Cadets Grob 109b Vigilant. I noticed near the start of the video there was a green BCF extinguisher, I thought that these had been banned quite a few years ago (The production of BCF and similar chlorofluorocarbons has been banned in most countries since January 1, 1994 as part of the Montreal Protocol on ozone depleting substances)
Thanks for another great video on an interesting topic since the demise of Halon. I have a dry powder, but would never consider discharging it in flight because I was aware of the result that you demonstrated so well! If you have identified a fire (flames) in the cockpit, complete a precautionary landing ASAP, and then use the dry powder. Better still what about the new clean agent extinguishers?, such as FireShield 1kg (£84) unit which you could consider using in flight with adequate ventilation. Keep up the good work!!
It will be interesting to see what alternatives become reccommended. Halo Carbon clean agent extinguishers are recommended for hand fire extinguishers in large aircraft. I haven't seen any available in the uk
Hold up. A pilot is unsure when to make the decision to use a fire extinguisher, and the chief DOESNT think that person would need more training? If you have a confirmed fire, you use your extinguishing agent. Confirmed means you have any two of the following: fire light, abnormal ENG indications, smoke/fumes or abnormal electrical indications. And if you SEE a fire that’s confirmed. Use your extinguishing agent! Clear as that. Now you’re landing as soon as possible, unless you’re on a helicopter and your gearbox is on fire then your landing/ditching immediately
In terms of the type of fires that different extinguishers are "good" for, gas extinguishers are good for relatively enclosed spaces (obviously bearing in mind the fact not particularly with you in them) like engine cowlings as said or the cockpit/cabin on the ground or indirect fires (for example behind panels etc), and powder/liquid extinguishers are good for smothering a fire in the open, there is no magic extinguisher that will be good for all and as also said, it's about risk/benefit just like other parts of being a pilot in an emergency.
Jon, the fire extinguisher in the Saratoga I fly is a joke in that its placement makes it almost impossible to retrieve in the event of a fire. More specifically it lies between the feet of front passenger seat and that for the second passenger row. Actually, the only person who could reach it would be, an individual sitting in the second or third row-the Saratoga second and the third row are in a club configuration….. maybe being hard to reach is a good thing based on your video video 😀😀😀
Check FAA AC 20-42D for recommended halon replacement extinguishers. halon or halotron are the only extinguishers you should use in the cockpit of a ga aircraft. my mech put in a powder extinguisher when the halon expired but i keep the halon as a first responder
@@TheFlyingReporter i am in canada; they are available here through aircraft spruce. There is a halotron extinguisher listed on aircraft spruce europe as well but the listing isn’t very detailed and it’s much more expensive than the halon models.
We've demonstrated here that Halon is the only viable option. CO2 extinguishers are not an option for light and ultralight. I had smoke in the cockpit due to a loose fuse and letting off the extinguisher in flight never crossed my mind, just landing asap was. I think his advice is correct. Fire is the most urgent of emergencies where you need to be on the ground, so advice on how to do an emergency decent would be helpful I don't think its in any PoH. But 8,000ft to ground is still going to be at least 3 minutes.
We had a dry powder fire extinguisher at work (work is fuel related). Someone set it off in a vehicle and totally ruined the interior. Could never get it fully clean again. We moved the vehicle to another site shortly after!
It is appalling that CAA "did not respond" to one of the most important topics ignored in general aviation and training. That alone should be publicized until they do respond, it makes no sense why they would not engage in any discussions about it.
Thought provoking: I honestly don't know what sort of extinguisher I have in my aeroplane... but from what I've seen and heard here, I don't think any of them are appropriate for use in flight. My take is that the purpose of the extinguisher is to put a fire out on the ground.
We had a green halon in the shed, which I'd set off a couple of squirts across the garden as a kid... One day l found it had come apart from the neck due to rust inside (where it would be pierced) and sprayed some moisture up the wall. I think it was made around 1975 and I'd took a snap with my cameraphone so it might've gone 🍾 in 2008. We have an expired FireAngel Superfoam in the kitchen. I wonder if that or more flimsy aerosol types which spray a clear mist, could be handy for a first attempt on a burning switch.
There doesn't seem to be perfect extinguisher for this application. That's why CAA satcon the fence as they wouldn't want to be implicated giving the incorrect advice ⚠️
Datacentres seem to have mostly switched from halon to FM200 systems from what I've seen, I wonder if you can get portbale versions and how well that'd work...
Using dry powder is bad on the ground around airplanes as well. The powder is highly corrosive dry and even worse when wet as when trying to wash it off. Generally an airframe that sees this powder is no longer airworthy.
As a fire engineer and recreational pilot, I am not sure I completely agree with the conclusions here. Dry powder has some issues but would still be my choice of extinguisher (I do agree with short bursts as required though). You have to remember that the extinguisher is a last resort when things are already going badly. If I had a fire 5,000ft in the air, it's going to take a while to get to the ground and I would rather carry out my forced landing irritated with partial visibility rather than while I was on fire. keep in mind smoke is pretty bad for visibility also. Dry power also has benefits in that it coats surfaces with the powder that acts a bit like a retardant, slowing down or stopping fire growth. So if there was smoke coming out of the dash, I would put a couple of bursts under the dash (no point spraying the front the dials if you have access in behind!). This might then be enough to slow the fire growth to a point I can get on the ground before it becomes life threatening or gets to a fuel line etc. Interesting conversation to have though!
My big takeaway from your video. Don't use a long blast. That was farctoo ridiculous. You know you are in a confined space so a short blast, re assess the situation and repeat as necessary. I was in the RAF for 12 years and every year we had fire and first aid training, as well as other things.
Halon SHOULD NOT be banned for aviation. It's a much better fire suppressant than CO2. It doesn't carry the risk of causing frostbite to the extent that CO2 does, where you freeze your hand to the horn as people instinctively grab the horn*. You need less of it as it actually stops the chemical reaction causing the fire rather than cooling and displacing oxygen and it isn't as toxic as CO2, which causes an immediate suffocation reaction and quick loss of consciousness in a confined space. *The horn on a CO2 extinguisher should be clearly labelled "do not hold" and preferably have a grip attached to the horn (essentially a plastic molding that is part of the horn, but distanced from the gas expansion zone) that someone will instinctively grip instead. Or a grip on the bottle so you know where both hands go. The horn could also have an insulating foam installed up the middle between two layers of plastic.
The way it's been explained to me is: - Halon (depending on type!) is for confined spaces that you yourself are in and will have to stay in. Generally a lot of halons are not great to breathe but they displace pretty fast and don't hang around as much as CO2 for instance - CO2 is for confined spaces that you are not in or that you can evacuate immediately after discharge. They work by displacing oxygen and CO2 tends to hang around so you can't stay in a space where one has been discharged - Foam is great for most general purpose fire fighting but only works for stuff in direct "line of sight" as it doesn't really mist around corners like the others will - Powder is crap. Don't use it if you can help it. It's widespread because powder extinguishers are cheap. The powder is a salt that corrodes anything even remotely in the vicinity, breathing it will give you the trots and give you lung damage and it's not even that good at extinguishing all types of fires. The powder goes everywhere and stays floating in air for a long time. They should not be used in a confined space that you yourself are also in. In general, if things are bad enough that you need to discharge a fire extinguisher in flight in the cockpit, something's gone horribly, horribly wrong already.
Visibility is an issue, but I'm sure that fire and smoke will be far more harmful to the skin, the lungs and avionics than powder. When you got a fire in the aircraft it's not about saving the aircraft anymore, it's about saving your life.
ICAO guidelines specify Halon for aircraft cabins, anything else is either not suitable or a danger to the crew. Dry powder is corrosive and very dangerous in a confined space of a small aircraft cockpit. Currently it is very hard to get Halon (BCF) due to it affects the ozone, it is only allowed for aviation.
NCO.IDE.A.160 says that aeroplanes, except ELA1 aeroplanes, shall be equipped with at least one hand fire extinguisher. Is your PA28 not an ELA 1 aeroplane?
At Republic Airport, on Long Island in the US, there was a fire in a Piper Archer. There was an instructor on board, and two passengers. He first reported it as a possible electrical fire, and turned around immediately toward the airport. It turned out to be an engine fire. I think all were fatally injured. I have never heard of an engine fire in this type of plane, and I have flown the Archer, the Warrior, and the Cruiser, many times. I have never come across a NTSB account of what happened
I had Warrior catch fire after landing. The carb. was faulty and flooded. There was an AD, but that aircrafts carb. had yet to be modded. I fired the dry powder extinguisher into cowl intakes. The extinguisher was empty in about 6 seconds.
No surprise CAA didn’t engage. I doubt our FAA would have either. They care only about being restrictive and punitive, not about being proactive and helpful.
Pleasure to work with you Jon, hopefully anyone flying with a dry powder extinguisher will be removing it after seeing this
Thanks Marvin. Really good issue to highlight I think.
OMG... That too me back to the late 70's/early 80's. When I was an apprentice aircraft fitter at The College of Air Training, at Hamble. We only went out on the airfield for a ground engine run. I was sat in the rear of a PA.28. Just as we started the engine, I accidentally set off the fire extinguisher, under the pilots seat, with my foot, with very similar results to your video. It was the fastest evacuation of an aircraft you would ever see!! We initially thought it was an engine problem. It took me a while to live that down. 🙄
It's happened a few times to my knowledge, another reason not to have one in the cockpit.
I had it happen in an Arrow as well.
Just before engine start when I slid the pilots seat forward, the extinguisher went off
Co2 is five times less efficient than BCF and is likely to knock you out before it puts the fire out.
I taught firefighting procedures to more than 55,000 cabin crew and pilots to multiple airlines. Very different procedure on a large airliner. I now teach helicopter pilots and private pilots. My advice as we tend to fly at much lower altitude, is land as soon as possible, evacuate and if without endangering yourself and you feel confident, use the extinguisher to try and extinguish the fire. Oh, and I am an ex-colleague of Marvin.
That's not taking into account on how much more heavy Halon is compared to CO2. Halon will penetrate down the gaps in the aircraft.
I was happy to see the back of Halon in data centres but in aircraft not so much
Co2 isn't an option for light and ultralight. This will be the reason the caa is silent on the matter. We're in a phase where we are banning stuff without viable alternatives which GA historically has been resistant too.
This is a good video. I have often thought of the hazards of using a fire extinguisher in a GA aircraft - thank you for covering this important subject
Classic CAA. Always eager to regulate & prosecute, clam up at difficult questions. Given the difficulty of even using a half mil chart in a typical spam can, the chances of accessing & operating any sort of extinguisher while maintaining control of the aircraft are pretty remote. I'd opt for the immediate forced landing.
I was a part time fire fighter for 21 years, so I found this very interesting, It brought back fond memories of my training which was usually at a local refinery here in Pembrokeshire.
Dry powder is REALLY good for breaking up fights... Really good.
Wow. Great demonstration, I’m regretful that I’ve had a powder extinguisher in the cabin for years and have never seen a demonstration of its use. What’s illustrative to me is how you could only tolerate being in the cockpit with the powder smoke for a few seconds. Imagine trying to land. 7:37
On ships we're not allowed to use Dry Power in enclosed compartments unless we are dressed in a full firefighting suit with full ff breathing apparatus, and on air, for this very reason. (An EEBD is NOT suitable -thats an emergency escape device only).
We're not even allow in compartments that have had CO2 discharged in them AT ALL until the fire is confirmed as out and the compartment has been fully ventilated and the air tested.
Having done a lot of shipboard firefighting training, the dangers of Dry Powder and CO2 extinguishers are drummed into us pretty much from day 1.
I had a 5kg dry powder extinguisher discharge itself in a truck cabin at night while I was travelling on a motorway. It was not a pleasant experience. I had no idea what was going on. I thought the truck was on fire.
I ended up in hospital with breathing difficulties and eye irritation.
It's happened a few times in aeroplanes too. A good reason not to have one on board.
8:05 glad you mention this. Dry powder fire extinguishers can total an automobile from corrosion. So even an accidental discharge could be a major problem.
Good to see this topic covered.
I was on the Fire Crew at Fairoaks back in the mid 1980's to the early 1990's and trained with all the then current mediums for fire fighting. It is fascinating to note here, that even back then, we were 'on notice' from the CAA that HALON was 'about to be banned' and was on a short term limited extension as nothing else quite like it had been developed for use in aircraft. It contains a serious amount of CFC and therefore, even back then, known to be harmful to the environment and in close proximity to people, not at all good for you! However, it was...is, very effective! I am amazed that it is still, 'about to be banned'!! That tells me that despite huge advances in so many areas of aviation, motor sport and other specialist areas where technology and time has been invested to find new ways of doing things.....this issue has been left on a shelf rather too long!
The use of dry powder was always discussed and trained for, as the last resort if in any form of confined space and we always knew that should you let one off in a cockpit or cabin area, in flight, it would likely be game over. We hated them unless we were fully in the open and could safely retreat from the powder. Also, we were always cautioned on using it on aircraft fires on the ground as the exceptional damage caused to anything the powder got into, would likely end up writing off the aircraft, unless that was the likely scenario anyway and there was no alternative available. It's worth noting the same holds true for your car!!
C02, whilst robbing you of precious oxygen if used in quantity in a confined space, (triangle of fire!?) was possibly a better option to carry. Although there is a small risk of ice burns if the extinguisher is mishandled during deployment.
Obviously Fire Crews on the ground will deploy foam as well, for a large number of applications involving an aircraft incident, but that is not a practical option for 'in flight' fires either!
Extraordinary the CAA failed to even respond to your requests..... again, it's as though this issue has just been shelved for years in the hope it might not come up at all.....?
It will be very interesting to see what the industry turns to as a replacement for HALON, if it is indeed actually withdrawn from next year....🤔
As a post script: it is also worth considering what will be recommended for use when your lithium ion battery pack in your iPad or phone, or laptop, goes 'pop' mid flight! There is an ever increasing reliance on lithium ion batteries in every electronic device and even some aircraft systems and propulsion units. Who is working on that one with the CAA!? Those things are seriously nasty when they decide to let go and the thought of it happening in the cockpit or cabin of a light aircraft or helicopter is the stuff of nightmares.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. I also vaguely remember fire training lessons from the 90s that essentially said, "This is what a HALON extinguisher looks like. If you see one, report it, because it probably shouldn't be there". I'm dismayed to learn that they are still approved for GA.
Great question re lithium ion batteries too. The CAA really does need to get a grip of these issues and provide some contemporary advice.
@@Fig330
Thanks for the reply!
Yes, it does seem from John's experience in trying to get the CAA on board while making this film, that he has opened a can of worms! They clearly had nothing ready to offer and were caught napping.
Fighting a fire in a cockpit while aloft will always be a massive drama and best avoided!! 🤣, but if it comes down to it, I personally might go the C02 route and pray!
On the ground is different if you can vacate the aircraft. Again, to minimise damage, C02 might be the better option for knockdown power without unnecessary extra damage being done to the systems if the fire is small and limited in size. Other than that, you should be insured and it's time to run away and wait for a grown up in a big friendly red truck to arrive.
Lithium ion batteries are already a huge challenge for fire and rescue services. The nature of the way they just will not die easily once they have let go, is staggering. I have seen experimental giant blankets used for car fires where they try to smother the entire fire by covering the car and deploying foam underneath the blanket. It's quite a big thing to manage, so maybe not much use on an aircraft!
I don't know what works best in these cases but have seen footage of car fires that just don't go out unless completely smothered with AFFF. That might be all there is.
Hopefully, Johns excellent film will draw a response from the CAA on best advice for 2024 going forward.....🤞🏻🤔🫤
@@lawrencemartin1113 Have a look at the AvSax re. lithium fires. Plenty of airliners using these now given the obvious risks!
Excellent video.
Thanks for highlighting this. How many of us give this much thought? Possibly not many. I know that all i did was check the fire extinguisher for mounting , security, and in date.
This was never brought up in my flying training years ago.
This has certainly opened my eyes to what if??
Very disappointing that the CAA did not offer up any advice or anyone for comment!
Thank you
Very helpful video but there is one thing I can add to this. During my multi engine flight training in the US, my instructor hit the dry chemical fire ext. mounted to the front of the copilots seat with his heal. The pin had been missing for some time and it went off for about 2 seconds. The nozzle was pointed up and it filled the front of the cockpit quickly. The windshield, charged with static electric charge, attracted the powder and it stuck there. Now we could not see out because of the powder covering the windshield. No problem; just use the instruments. That was not possible because the vacuum powered gyros had caused a static electric charge on the glass of the faces and they too wore covered with the powder. I used the side windows until the instructor cleaned the windshield which was no easy task.
That’s one of the ex RAF Grob 109b Vigilant. The UK government decided to end the service and scrap the fleet.
Just thought the same, brought back some memories
I knew someone stationed at RAF Syerston, and he told me that they had no choice but to scrap most of the G109’s as there was no paper trail on the parts that got swapped from one aircraft to another. They couldn’t guarantee the age of the parts that got swapped or if they were time expired. A real pity as the 109’s were a good step up for the Air Cadets to a powered aircraft.
Came here to say it looks like a 109B too. There's a small chance that poor thing is the aircraft I did my first solo in.
Thanks for this Jon. I am sure someone has said it but often I find fire extinguishers are either hard to get to or/and in cradles that are easily knocked open. The result, a loose fire extinguisher that could get under the pedals or jam other control systems. I did have the use of the extinguisher mentioned back in my training but it was for breaking the glass on the VSI (with the important proviso that you remove the needle too to stop reverse readings!) if you had a static air blockage/issue. I hope the extinguisher will always remain unused in its secure cradle and I wish others the same too!
Thanks Anthony. It think I was told the same now you come to mention it.
What an excellent video John! Every pilot should watch this.
A lot of food for thought there Jon, thanks for bringing this out. I didn't know the CAA was banning Halon next year. It's what our club aircraft carries...
The ban comes from when we were in the EU. 31 December 2025 is the deadline.
Shame you didn’t touch on the option of Water Mist fire extinguishers. Suitable for all fire types except metal and yes it can be used on fuel and electrical fires below 1000V. The deionised water and fine particle size makes it safe. As the cabin water mist trials showed after the Manchester disaster another benefit of water mist is the knocking back of temperature and smoke. It’s also way cheaper and more environmentally friendly than the alternatives. The engineers will be happy if you use one, as it leaves no residue. During COVID several airlines installed water mist extinguishers in the cabin when acting as freighters carrying boxes of PPE in the cabin. Maybe worth raising with CAA when you meet them.
All three of the aircraft I flew had the fire extinguisher behind the rear seats. I don’t think I could have reached them in flight so I assumed they were for small post crash fires.
A good assumption - but without any training/guidance on that, we're all assuming of course.
Thank you for that eye opener demonstration
Pleasure.
Thanks for covering this subject.
Pleasure - thanks for watching.
All very interesting and a great reminder that none of these types of extinguisher (Halon / BCF / CO2 / Dry Powder) should be used in enclosed spaces such as a light aircraft cockpit. They may well kill the fire, but they will also kill you. Not a great result.
No mention of AFFF (Aqueous Fire Fighting Foam) or similars though? There are a number of these types of extinguisher available, and they can be used on any type of fire. They make a (watery foamy) mess, but nothing toxic or hard to clean up.
Trying to fight a fire in a small and confined aircraft cockpit presents more issues though, especially if you are solo. You have to actually fly the aeroplane at the same time as well.
Perhaps less thought should be given to using the fire extinguishers available, and more thought on getting on the ground asap? Side slipping to loose altitude quickly (and keep any flames to one side), is one strategy, and there will be many others to get you on the ground and away from the fire.
The thing is, think about it before hand. Rehearse what you would do. Think about different eventualities and possible outcomes.
Chances are it will never happen, but being mentally prepared means you have a better chance of surviving.
Thanks Andy.
Very thought provoking video, Jon. I can see the aviation community will benefit from your passion for flight mixed with your journalistic experience.
I'm looking forward to hearing the response from the CAA and trust you will continue to push them for one.
Also, as a veteran of Shawbury Tower, it's always good to see Sleap represented. Great advice from Marvin. Another example of mixing expertise for the greater good.
Thanks - i hope the episode proves useful for everyone.
Very interesting viewing, but how sad to see one of the old Air Cadet Vigilant motor gliders ending up being used like this.
Thanks Phil.
An excellent video providing great information to the GA community, I was an instructor at Redhill back in the mid 80’s, we where tasked with providing our own fire cover using the airport fire truck while Bristows had their own fire vehicle. We all had a two day course every 18 months if memory serves via one of the instructors at Gatwick. Our training highlighted all the points you raised during this presentation. Well done and best of luck with the CAA, I already know what they will say as their lawyers won’t allow them to make a definitive statement on this but something like, “All aircraft fires are different and each aircraft would add to the variables involved so no one procedure would cover all eventualities, our advice would be to land as soon as possible and use the fire extinguisher as needed.” That’s my guess?
Thanks John.
Dry powder, although cheap will make a right mess. Afterwards any damp will mix with powder and corrode plugs in electrical circuits. Also someone told me gives you the trots. Halon is better but costly. If plastic burning the CO2 force blows the soot all over the place. Have used all at some point.
Any smoke in cockpit hit master switch off.
Dunno about diarrhea. I used to service and repair these things. Handle them enough and you will get used to the powder and be able to breath with one going off in a room while not wearing a mask. Bit like not having to cough when having a cigarette. The silica in the powder will however eat at your lungs and leave you hospitalised with pneumothorax
Thanks, Jon, for this very informative & valuable lesson on one of those critical areas that, ironically, are taken for granted but not properly understood.
Thanks John. I agree - many wouldn't have thought about this.
Great report. I've known about this issue for years now, but it needs more traction to get pilots briefed. It would have to be pretty dire situation for me to use any extinguisher in the air. I was taught to remove heat (turn electrics off), and/or fuel(Fuel shut off) and get on the ground ASAP. Which, will depend on the type of fire. Marvins advice is good. I would also urge pilots, especially renters, to be familiar with the extinguishers. I noticed you fumbled removing the pin from that Dry Powder extingisher and needed to be prompted (I suspect the first time you have seen that type).
BTW CO2 also creates a white-out
Great video Jon, highlighting an important, latent hazard to all GA pilots. It was disappointing that the CAA neglected to engage with you on this topic, let’s hope AOPA make some headway with them during their forthcoming meeting. Keep up the good work! 👏
Thanks for watching.
Extremely useful video. Thanks 👍
It’s amazing what I don’t know and knowing some of what I don’t know makes me wonder about what else I don’t know. Thanks for helping me be a little bit wiser.
Haha. thanks for watching.
Good video. I've often not relished the idea of deploying a powder-based extinguisher in a cockpit. Even with short bursts, I'd probably end up with compromised vision which would make flying and landing a lot more difficult.
I never really knew before this experience. Hopefully the video has been useful in that respect.
I’ve always considered the most important use of the extinguisher was , following a forced landing, in a crash. Even if the door had been cracked on the way down it might be inoperable after everything stopped!
The bottom of the cylinder could be used to get through the acrylic, and/or smash the door open. It’s pretty tough. Then used , if fuel from the wings has ignited , as advertised ,to enable the pilot to make a successful escape.
Thanks David. I personally didn't know when I'd use it. Most electrical fires will be extinguished by cutting the power. I think there are some gaps in knowledge and understanding.
I've run through the checklist/drill multiple times, and had a vague sense that actually using an extinguisher in the cockpit of a 172 would be... suboptimal, but it's very helpful to see one used. I'll have to check the type in the aircraft I'm training in, but it's good to have some sense of what to expect if an extreme situation warranted the use of an extinguisher rather than being surprised on top of the cabin fire while in the air. Great idea to check into this and a very helpful demonstration! Thanks!
Thanks Tom. I doubt many light aircraft pilots have thought it through as you have. So hopefully the video provides some useful insight.
Great video and valuable information. I remember doing a CAA fire and rescue course at Sandown Airport in the early 90’s which included using all the fire extinguishers and AFFF. Great fun but fantastic experience which I carry with me while flying in NZ 👍
Thanks for watching!
thanks jon and marvin for bringing this to our attention.
Our pleasure.
In fact Halon does not take away oxygen, but just displaces air from a confined space, and this of course may lead to asphyxiation. Nevertheless halon is perhaps the most effective extinguishing agent and the safest to use in aircraft.
Trying to keep the explanations simple - it stops stuff burning 😉
I never thought of this …….. so if there is a fire in the cockpit master switch off vents closed, throw my water bottle at it and hope for the best 😂😂😂😂
PPRuNe have an interesting thread from 2012 on "You have an electrical fire in the cockpit..."
The Halon extinguishers smell better.....Had one go off in a C172 and could open both windows thankfully! Powder looks really bad...wow
Good video, I have always had a foam existisher in my track cars.
Interesting - food for thought. It would have been interesting to see a comparison of all three fired in the cockpit.
It’s illegal to discharge halon except in an emergency. And co2 carries a risk in a confined space!
That wreck is a Grob 109 Motor Glider :-). Great video on this neglected subject. Brilliant piece of advice for in-cockpit fire, get it on the ground and hand it back to the insurance company. I keep one of these in the cockpit: StaySafe 5in1 Fire Extinguisher, It's got good reviews and is supposed to be non-toxic etc. I'd only let it off in the cockpit as a last resort.
Thanks Mike.
Dry powder extinguishers also DESTROY the aluminium , it is caustic and eats the alloy. Race cars are destroyed by the chemical action.
I have been wondering about this for a while now. Great vid!! Greetings from East Anglia
Thanks for watching.
I had my old TR7 car caught fire in cabin, if that happened in a aircraft you would be dead in 10 seconds.
I would hit the maser switch off straight away. Did it once in 152, landing light switch was smoking and welded on..
I think you have to assume any extinguisher for external use.
Very informative. I will be replacing my dry powder extinguisher very soon.
Thanks for watching.
good ,informative video--thank you for covering this.
Great topic John and greetings from N Ireland
Thanks Rodney.
I lost it at the swimming goggles 🤣
😂
As always, legislation mending something which isn’t broken. Probably a good idea to stock up on BCFs before 2026. I’ve been told this week by my maintenance company that, as of the 1st Jan 25, carbon monoxide detectors are becoming mandatory and part of the aircraft annual.
I have aquired a couple of BCF/Halon extinguishers over the past couple of years with the intention of fitting one in the aircraft I'm currently building. Why on earth there is a blanket ban for use in GA aircraft supposedly from the end of 2025 makes no sense. A better solution would be either to state that once the extinguisher has become lifex or been discharged it cannot be refilled or reconditioned and returned to service. That would promote a gradual replacement of all the BCF/Halon extinguishers fitted in GA aircraft with modern equivalents and those lifex would be have the contents recycled for remaining military or other authorised use.
Yes, BCF/Halon isnt good for the planet, but at the end of the day the potential saving of a life by discharging a single extinguisher shouldnt be considered a crime. As ex-RAF groundcrew, I'm familiar with all the benefits and hazards of using most types of extinguishers and believe all civvy aircrew should have a basic training on the correct identification and use of fire extinguishers.
What about "Clean Agent" fire extinguishers? These are generally sold as the replacement for Halon promising to be non-corrosive to electricals and hopefully our lungs. They look in videos to produce little to no dust cloud, would be interesting if the CAA could clarify if these are the intended replacement to Halon for GA...
Halo Carbon clean agents are the reccommended alternative, but I don't know if they're available in the UK?
@@TheFlyingReporter smallest is 2kg, but they have them at fireprotectiononline
I'm a french pilot, your french is totally understandable 👌 congratulations on having the courage to do that 👏👏
The Wreck is an ex Air Cadets Grob 109b Vigilant. I noticed near the start of the video there was a green BCF extinguisher, I thought that these had been banned quite a few years ago (The production of BCF and similar chlorofluorocarbons has been banned in most countries since January 1, 1994 as part of the Montreal Protocol on ozone depleting substances)
www.gov.uk/guidance/critical-uses-of-halons
Thanks for another great video on an interesting topic since the demise of Halon. I have a dry powder, but would never consider discharging it in flight because I was aware of the result that you demonstrated so well! If you have identified a fire (flames) in the cockpit, complete a precautionary landing ASAP, and then use the dry powder. Better still what about the new clean agent extinguishers?, such as FireShield 1kg (£84) unit which you could consider using in flight with adequate ventilation.
Keep up the good work!!
It will be interesting to see what alternatives become reccommended. Halo Carbon clean agent extinguishers are recommended for hand fire extinguishers in large aircraft. I haven't seen any available in the uk
Such an important topic and a real shame that the CAA didn't engage with you Jon! A real missed opportunity on their part!
Thanks Lily
Very good video, lots to think about, thanks for spreading the awareness.
Pleasure as always. Never a chore!
Hold up. A pilot is unsure when to make the decision to use a fire extinguisher, and the chief DOESNT think that person would need more training?
If you have a confirmed fire, you use your extinguishing agent. Confirmed means you have any two of the following: fire light, abnormal ENG indications, smoke/fumes or abnormal electrical indications. And if you SEE a fire that’s confirmed. Use your extinguishing agent! Clear as that. Now you’re landing as soon as possible, unless you’re on a helicopter and your gearbox is on fire then your landing/ditching immediately
Very interesting! Thanks a lot!!
Thank you.
I wonder if the European EASA or American FAA have any guidance, in the absence of CAA guidance
Absolute disgrace that the CAA did not engage.
I was a little surprised they sent me nothing after 4 months.
Brilliant video. Thank you.
Thanks Ben.
In terms of the type of fires that different extinguishers are "good" for, gas extinguishers are good for relatively enclosed spaces (obviously bearing in mind the fact not particularly with you in them) like engine cowlings as said or the cockpit/cabin on the ground or indirect fires (for example behind panels etc), and powder/liquid extinguishers are good for smothering a fire in the open, there is no magic extinguisher that will be good for all and as also said, it's about risk/benefit just like other parts of being a pilot in an emergency.
Thanks - hopefully people are better informed after this video.
2:07 looks like a Grob 109B to me 😂 Fly safely indeed
Jon, the fire extinguisher in the Saratoga I fly is a joke in that its placement makes it almost impossible to retrieve in the event of a fire. More specifically it lies between the feet of front passenger seat and that for the second passenger row. Actually, the only person who could reach it would be, an individual sitting in the second or third row-the Saratoga second and the third row are in a club configuration….. maybe being hard to reach is a good thing based on your video video 😀😀😀
Thanks Douglas.
Haha love they did it on an old RAF Vigilant who’s fleet was discharged for safety reasons 😂 Did my first solo in one.
Pity the CAA couldn't get back to you on this. Hopefully there will be something coming from them.
Check FAA AC 20-42D for recommended halon replacement extinguishers. halon or halotron are the only extinguishers you should use in the cockpit of a ga aircraft. my mech put in a powder extinguisher when the halon expired but i keep the halon as a first responder
I've read that - I don't see anyone supplying it in the uk. could be wrong.
@@TheFlyingReporter i am in canada; they are available here through aircraft spruce. There is a halotron extinguisher listed on aircraft spruce europe as well but the listing isn’t very detailed and it’s much more expensive than the halon models.
We've demonstrated here that Halon is the only viable option. CO2 extinguishers are not an option for light and ultralight. I had smoke in the cockpit due to a loose fuse and letting off the extinguisher in flight never crossed my mind, just landing asap was. I think his advice is correct. Fire is the most urgent of emergencies where you need to be on the ground, so advice on how to do an emergency decent would be helpful I don't think its in any PoH. But 8,000ft to ground is still going to be at least 3 minutes.
Search youtube for the finer points. Emergency descent.
Yeh - that's probably a good follow up video.
We had a dry powder fire extinguisher at work (work is fuel related). Someone set it off in a vehicle and totally ruined the interior. Could never get it fully clean again. We moved the vehicle to another site shortly after!
They've been accidentaly discharged in aeroplanes too.
Hopefully halotron or inergen become more readily available outside the USA for aviation.
Yeh - I don't see them for sale here in the UK.
It's a Grob 109B air cadet motor glider
It is appalling that CAA "did not respond" to one of the most important topics ignored in general aviation and training. That alone should be publicized until they do respond, it makes no sense why they would not engage in any discussions about it.
Thought provoking: I honestly don't know what sort of extinguisher I have in my aeroplane... but from what I've seen and heard here, I don't think any of them are appropriate for use in flight. My take is that the purpose of the extinguisher is to put a fire out on the ground.
Yeh - I agree. I hadn't really thought about it until this experience though.
Anything capable of putting out a fire in a confined space is capable of snuffing out life 😬
@@TheFlyingReporternor had I - your video really helps with that!
That's a Grob 109B Vigilant T1, so sad to see such a great airframe reduced to that.
Holy Crow! During intro I sort of worked it out, but really had no idea. Guess that's why in commercial flight the 1st thing is MASK....
Thanks James.
We had a green halon in the shed, which I'd set off a couple of squirts across the garden as a kid...
One day l found it had come apart from the neck due to rust inside (where it would be pierced) and sprayed some moisture up the wall.
I think it was made around 1975 and I'd took a snap with my cameraphone so it might've gone 🍾 in 2008.
We have an expired FireAngel Superfoam in the kitchen. I wonder if that or more flimsy aerosol types which spray a clear mist, could be handy for a first attempt on a burning switch.
The alternative to Halon, at least in Australia, is Halotron.
I dont' think we have a distributor in the UK.
There doesn't seem to be perfect extinguisher for this application.
That's why CAA satcon the fence as they wouldn't want to be implicated giving the incorrect advice ⚠️
Datacentres seem to have mostly switched from halon to FM200 systems from what I've seen, I wonder if you can get portbale versions and how well that'd work...
halocarbon clean agent is the recommended alternative I think, certainly for larger aeroplanes, but are they avaialble in the UK/EU?
The demonstration aircraft fuselage is of an ex RAF Air Cadets Vigilant Grob 109B motor glider.
Using dry powder is bad on the ground around airplanes as well. The powder is highly corrosive dry and even worse when wet as when trying to wash it off. Generally an airframe that sees this powder is no longer airworthy.
Very true.
As a fire engineer and recreational pilot, I am not sure I completely agree with the conclusions here. Dry powder has some issues but would still be my choice of extinguisher (I do agree with short bursts as required though). You have to remember that the extinguisher is a last resort when things are already going badly. If I had a fire 5,000ft in the air, it's going to take a while to get to the ground and I would rather carry out my forced landing irritated with partial visibility rather than while I was on fire. keep in mind smoke is pretty bad for visibility also. Dry power also has benefits in that it coats surfaces with the powder that acts a bit like a retardant, slowing down or stopping fire growth. So if there was smoke coming out of the dash, I would put a couple of bursts under the dash (no point spraying the front the dials if you have access in behind!). This might then be enough to slow the fire growth to a point I can get on the ground before it becomes life threatening or gets to a fuel line etc. Interesting conversation to have though!
My big takeaway from your video. Don't use a long blast. That was farctoo ridiculous. You know you are in a confined space so a short blast, re assess the situation and repeat as necessary. I was in the RAF for 12 years and every year we had fire and first aid training, as well as other things.
And most private pilots will have had no fire training and won’t know what to do with an extinguisher
Halon SHOULD NOT be banned for aviation.
It's a much better fire suppressant than CO2.
It doesn't carry the risk of causing frostbite to the extent that CO2 does, where you freeze your hand to the horn as people instinctively grab the horn*.
You need less of it as it actually stops the chemical reaction causing the fire rather than cooling and displacing oxygen and it isn't as toxic as CO2, which causes an immediate suffocation reaction and quick loss of consciousness in a confined space.
*The horn on a CO2 extinguisher should be clearly labelled "do not hold" and preferably have a grip attached to the horn (essentially a plastic molding that is part of the horn, but distanced from the gas expansion zone) that someone will instinctively grip instead. Or a grip on the bottle so you know where both hands go. The horn could also have an insulating foam installed up the middle between two layers of plastic.
The way it's been explained to me is:
- Halon (depending on type!) is for confined spaces that you yourself are in and will have to stay in. Generally a lot of halons are not great to breathe but they displace pretty fast and don't hang around as much as CO2 for instance
- CO2 is for confined spaces that you are not in or that you can evacuate immediately after discharge. They work by displacing oxygen and CO2 tends to hang around so you can't stay in a space where one has been discharged
- Foam is great for most general purpose fire fighting but only works for stuff in direct "line of sight" as it doesn't really mist around corners like the others will
- Powder is crap. Don't use it if you can help it. It's widespread because powder extinguishers are cheap. The powder is a salt that corrodes anything even remotely in the vicinity, breathing it will give you the trots and give you lung damage and it's not even that good at extinguishing all types of fires. The powder goes everywhere and stays floating in air for a long time. They should not be used in a confined space that you yourself are also in.
In general, if things are bad enough that you need to discharge a fire extinguisher in flight in the cockpit, something's gone horribly, horribly wrong already.
Do you think aircraft should carry fire blankets thing blanket can get damp in un warm conditions
Burning question: what about foam extinguishers?
Why would you use your fire extinguisher? It’s for fire, not smoke.
But, I would hazard a guess that most light aircraft pilots have no knowledge/experience with which to know this. Hence, the vid
What about water mist or foam?
Oh....the fuselage and cockpit appears to be from a rather sad looking Grob 109 motor glider? ......not a Katana I think...😊
It’s an ex Air Cadet glider. Technically a Grob 109b or the Vigilant T Mk1 as the RAF called it.
@@pilotgavin
I might even have flown it in a previous life!! 😁
Poor grob g109b . I did my first solo this plane
Visibility is an issue, but I'm sure that fire and smoke will be far more harmful to the skin, the lungs and avionics than powder. When you got a fire in the aircraft it's not about saving the aircraft anymore, it's about saving your life.
Thanks.
ICAO guidelines specify Halon for aircraft cabins, anything else is either not suitable or a danger to the crew. Dry powder is corrosive and very dangerous in a confined space of a small aircraft cockpit. Currently it is very hard to get Halon (BCF) due to it affects the ozone, it is only allowed for aviation.
An in the EU/UK, it's banned for aviation hand fire extinguishers from 31 December 2025.
NCO.IDE.A.160 says that aeroplanes, except ELA1 aeroplanes, shall be equipped with at least one hand fire extinguisher. Is your PA28 not an ELA 1 aeroplane?
No. Maximum take off weight 2900 lbs. 1315 Kgs.
At Republic Airport, on Long Island in the US, there was a fire in a Piper Archer. There was an instructor on board, and two passengers. He first reported it as a possible electrical fire, and turned around immediately toward the airport. It turned out to be an engine fire. I think all were fatally injured. I have never heard of an engine fire in this type of plane, and I have flown the Archer, the Warrior, and the Cruiser, many times. I have never come across a NTSB account of what happened
I had Warrior catch fire after landing. The carb. was faulty and flooded. There was an AD, but that aircrafts carb. had yet to be modded. I fired the dry powder extinguisher into cowl intakes. The extinguisher was empty in about 6 seconds.
No surprise CAA didn’t engage. I doubt our FAA would have either. They care only about being restrictive and punitive, not about being proactive and helpful.
What chemical is the dry powder using?