Archery in Melee | The "Sudden" Attack Scenario
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2024
- A rebuttal to the argument that a bow can be used to block an attack in order to buy time for the archer to draw their sidearm.
Summary:
Drawing a weapon is not a time-consuming task. You would waste more time trying to use a bow to attack or defend than simply going to your secondary weapon.
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I read on a wikipedia entry that Welsh Archers had a special compartment in their Arm Bracer.
The Arm Bracer held a goodly portion of guncotton. They would throw it during a "Sudden" Attack, thus making smoke
people forget that samurai were archers 1st
On the same note, many people overlook the fact that a sword was a sidearm - a tertiary weapon, in fact - for the samurai, after the bow and spear.
NUSensei That's true. However, even with that in mind, we shouldn't understate the presence and importance of these sidearms. Sidearms can and have made a difference in battles. Plus, these sidearms tend to be the only battlefield weapons practical to carry outside of war (a spear is too cumbersome to walk around with in tighter corridors like towns, for instance), thus making them personal weapons. So while warriors such as knights and samurai may not have had their swords as their primary weapons, they were still extremely important.
Actually, bows are often side arms too, for horsemen in China at least because they use pikes on horseback most of the time.
By far, the weirdest conversion between melee and ranged that I've seen in fiction are the "ancient" arrows in Skyward Sword. The arrowheads are laser switchblades. You can't use them as melee weapons in the game, but that's what they are, just attached to the end of a stick. Even with the blade itself being made of light, it still looks like they'd make for some very heavy arrows, and yet they're still used with just as much ease as all the other arrow types with the same bows.
Thanks, very useful for me in a design issue I was thinking about cheers.
if you think about dueling theres a thing in dueling where you hold your sword point forward to stop an attack, but only for a little while, you should shft the bow grip down and hold it out while grabbing your sword. It would probably be a sword and not a dagger
Was having a crap day, this made laugh and made my day! Thank you!
Nu Sensei, I am trying to make sense of what is arrow spine and how it matters to the arrows you choose to shoot from your bow. What does it mean to have, say 700 spine to 400 when you are shooting from a 45# bow?
Aimran Yasin yea I don't understand it either
re: Aimran Yasin. Hi, Spine is the amount an arrow can bend with a given applied force to its full length (or the amount an arrow ``RESISTS`` bending with a given applied force to its full length). For convenience AND FOR COMPARISON, Easton uses a fancy special weighed way to apply force, and at a fancy special distance configuration. What they then arrive at is a number. THIS NUMBER is DECEMAL Inches!!! For example, the 700 number = 0.700 inches deflection [under Easton's special fancy test conditions]. Another example is the 400 number, and this equals 0.400 inches of deflection. For a 45# TRADITIONAL recurve bow, you might typically require a .700spine arrow is you wanted it exactly 28" long. It you needed a arrow exactly 31" long for your 45# bow, you may need that .400spine arrow you mentioned.
That is to say, --- .700 will flex rather well @28" [for 45$], but .400 will RESIST flexing quite well @28", but add another 3inches [to 31"], and its BEHAVIOUR will be rather flexible at its own 31, just like the .700 did at its own 28.
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Other readers may be able to phrase / articulate better.
Thank you.
why you want to destroy your bow, when you can use your sidearm
I'm sorry but it's not about having a side-arm or not. Battle is not a brawl, there are TONS of other factors involving that. You mentioned formations, that is a good start. But problem is the "attack", not the sudden part. If you are in a archer detachment and enemy is marching against you, first of all that means something is going very badly around you. Second, while it depends the era and the geography that this battle happens: Usual rule, around the time you manage to form up your chances get real slim. It's not arms win the battle it's the formation and armor.
What would be the best side arm for an archer? Short sword? Wakizashi? Hand and a half sword? Dual large fighting dagger/knives (Legolas style)?
A side topic, what would be the most common armor type for archers?
A sword would've been a common option, though depending on the culture and time, a spear would've also been a common weapon. As for armour, it's impossible to say what is the "most common" given the extent that archery was used around the world. That can vary from lamellar armour to padded textile armour to none.
You would throw the bow as a distraction and draw your secondary in one motion.
these "Melee" discussions have become their own SERIAL.
Will we get a 50-YEARS anniversary edition or a 75-YEARS anniversary edition when the time comes ;-)
On a completely off-topic, how logical is it for an archer(in a group) being approached by men at arms(some nearer than his fellows) to not draw his sidearm but choose to shoot point blank to get in max penetration or hit in the gaps?
Also, how high would an archer's aim be in this case? Enough to hit a few centimetres of gap in the armour?
1:46
near self-disembowelment
Tl;dr: hitting people with your bow is dumb, don't do dumb things.
10:35 sorta reminds me of 'drakes' adventure'. where one of his melee is tossing the gun towards the enemy, and the enemy reaches to catches the gun heading to his chest, and drake punches the hostile in the face.
Sorry but most armies at the time would have had a group of pikes to gaurd the archer lines . Even if it was attacked by a fast light Calvary unit .
Well, about sudden attacks, there is still an argument: the terror of a bowman troop in a battlefield is a pack of horsemen. They can cover distances really fast and attack in charge with long spears. A distance of 10ft, 30ft, to a mounted knight is nothing.
Of course, try to hit a horseman with a bow in melee is still stupid. But in emergency case, you can try at least parry the spear (and you will probably fail, anyway).
The noise and size of a horse makes the sudden attack a bit less likely. And Bows are so clumsy in your hand you better jump away than try to parry a spear with the bow.
You dropped the almighty Samick Sage, you monster!!!!
Also, everybody knows that medieval archers already had olympic and compound bows!!
I unsubscribed.
wow the troll though
Up to 200# of draw weight on a recurvebow were no problems for a medieval archer.
And when they finally had carbon arrows around 1509, things changed.
There are legends of an archer fighting for King Zin-Che of England who did a full 360 degree spin before shooting. We now know this legendary technique as the '360 no-scope".
NUSensei really needs to get his shit together when it comes to history.
But did he call his mom to bring the camera?!?
I dropped it so that it wouldn't be damaged in combat!
You shouldn't drop such a nice longbow, you might warp the riser.
nice someone with solar panels :P now for content: this question mostly applies to fictional archers, the way i see it and as a writer, i know that you wouldn't give an archer-character another weapon, even though it's perfectly realistic, because it just feels kinda weird... so you need another way to give them a realistic (and unavoidable) meelee fight (i personally solved this problem with a transforming bow a la Hawkeye, plus i also think those who want to make a broken tool work no matter what are anoying to). as a sidenote: from what i can tell your target audience seems to be hobby-archers, but you also attract writers who are concerned with realism like me and i wanted to know what you'd think of making a writers playlist (with vids like this for fight choreo, or some for weapon design)?
While it's not something I had in mind, I'm covering a few "Movie Trope" kind of discussions that would also be of interest. I'm open to ideas though.
Probably the most famous, or at least one of the most famous of fictional archers would be Legolas, and he had melee weapons, even though he is in a high fantasy setting, Tolkien still opted for the more realistic approach to arm the main archer character of the group with backup melee weapons.
Why would it be weird to write the character realistically? :)
Question?: weren't the King's trained Archers just rich conscripted lords and poor conscripted farmers ???
Isn't that why archery training on Sunday afternoons became The Law???!!
Isn't that was Golf was banned from being played for many decades because it was supplanting archery practice???!!
I didn't think the King's Archers were trained fulltime solders year `round?!! I thought they went back to their lives between wars
My samick sage 40 # bow has a samick sage logo on the ricer. why???
what if your opponent was using a spear in close combat. They would kill u in instant before drawing your sword because of the length of the spear.
Sibtain Azeem then you run. You run so far away that he questions if you were even there at all.
Same implausible scenario. Under what circumstances will an archer be unable to draw a weapon upon seeing an approaching foot soldier?
NUSensei - What if the spear is 100 metres long?
Re: Flavia:: lol
oh dear Siberius Wolf:: You literally made me Laugh Out Loud. Thant you for for generous and riotous comical comment. You made my day :-)
is the bow in the thumbnail a pse nighthawk
Samick Sage.
Ok..... What is your sidearm?
.... looks to me like a Hot Poker / Fire Poker ...??!
But it's not as cool to just drop your bow. It's much cooler to just fight with your bow.
I have a question about archery after watching the Avatar movie.
The Na'vi use a reverse grip around the bowstring, something I have never seen used outside that movie.
Is there anyone who use that grip in real life?
If there is, what is the advantages and drawbacks (pun intended) using that grip?
I'm almost certain that was just to make them seem more alien. Given slightly different joint and muscle structure it's plausible it makes sense for them at a glance, but I can't think of any advantage over a more conventional grip for human body mechanics and the fact that there's been no widespread use through history across huge ranges of time and culture suggests that the reason is because it's worse.
That said, while I have a decent knowledge of history including some hands on application of martial arts, someone more versed in archery would be better to give you specifics of what the drawbacks are (beyond just that I feel it incredibly awkward and like I might not be able to draw as much weight).
The only specifics I can tell you is that if the bow string is gripped from the other dirrection (as it is using a thumb ring in real life and in the wierd Navi grip) the arrow should be put on the other side of the bow (which it doesn't seem to be in the film), so they're getting that part wrong reguardless of the alien physiology.
DynamicWorlds I agree, I can think of some draw backs with that grip, but no advantages.
The main disadvantage as I see it is that the hand get in the way, either that grip will cause either that one has to draw the string back a lesser distance or it will get out of the sight line, so basically giving the disadvantage of a longbow, but without the advantage.
Just so you know Nuseni I got into bow shooting because of you☺
Seeems to make logical sense to me!
You wouldn't expect to really hold your ground with a sidearm against a fully equipped melee warrior with a spear or shield+axe or a two-handed sword, would you?
Of course in some cultures "archers" could be just all-around professional warriors with best available armour and weaponry and probably with a battle horse, but that's another story =)
You wouldn't expect a spearman to cross 200 yards under arrow fire, smash through lines of men-at-arms and then freely slaughter archers who are standing there waving their arms either.
Nope, I thought we were discussing "sudden attack" situation here ;)
I've seen your video about "swordsmen charge", thanks! =)
This video is about why archers would not be using their bows as melee weapons, not whether they can actually take on an armored fighter.
probably they are talking about a game...not a real scenario.
don't deal in what if because you can say what if to anything
ur surrounded 30 guns, shit x_x
just draw ur sidearm. all g, u got dis!
In melee battles you couldn't target two opponents approaching you simultaneously. Nonsense video lol. Two melee combatants with shields would walk you down.
How bout you were attacked from behind
That's just called assassination.
4:25 - my reaction when I realise it's a samick sage. drop it... drop it NOW.
all of what you are saying makes perfect, logical sense.
an attacker without a ranged weapon is either going to flee or attempt to close the distance. It would be silly for an archer to not have a backup weapon.
I always got annoyed with RPG's for this reason.
Dude... This archer class is so unbalanced.
Nerf pls!
When I heard sudden attack, I thought of an Assassin's Creed air assassinate XD
Chivalry: Medieval Warfare --> archer with sword :P
lol
Really man, again with the melee? Wtf?