If you're wondering where I've been for almost 3 weeks, THIS is where I've been! I sincerely hope you enjoy the fruits of my longgg labor. Not planning on making a super long video again for a long time, so I promise I wont be gone for 3 weeks again anytime soon :) Speaking of this video, I really enjoyed making it. Definitely didn't get too dark, but I hope you at least learned something new and interesting. Now with this out of the way, I'll be back soon in a couple days with 2 videos, the first being the Q&A (remember when I said I was gonna do that? lol) and What Your P3 Waifu Says at long last, so look forward to that and stay tuned and stay well as always.
@@HeavenlyM now that I think about it. Wouldn’t that be impossible for the persona 5 deadline endings? Because all the deadline bad endings are Joker not remembering right when talking to sae. All the endings lead back up to November after Sae’s palace.
@@SSJUnderDog there’s the universe where Joker didn’t remember correctly, and there’s the universe where Joker actually failed to meet the deadline and he ended up getting arrested that way, there are probably a ton of other universes that also deviate from what we see in the game, there could be a universe where Joker didn’t join the phantom thieves until Sae’s palace, one where Akechi was never evil, heck the adult confidant AU could be canon, if there’s a shin megami tensei multiverse, anything that can happen, has happened
Also in yongen there's a p4 reference there is a white scooter and a green bike next to a trash can. If you don't know and never played p4 the scooter is yu's and In the green bike is when yosuke got stuck in a trash can.
@@LelouchOnTwi well if you think Before p4 they said that Yu lived in tokyo so maybe him and yosuke were hanging out and went to his home town but I'm not sure because I'm just theorizing. But I'm also thinking that Akira's home town might have been in Inaba but I don't know.
I read a fanfic once that entertained the idea of the velvet room attendants being former wild card users that failed and died on their journey. When a person asked the author for the inspiration. In the comments the author wrote it was heavily implied in a persona novel he once read. I searched but I could never find anything about its existence. so I shrugged it off until now. In the games When you die you go to the velvet room and get that dialogue from Igor then the game ends so it kind of makes sense.
That actually sounds so dark but really interesting actually, and you’re right, it is where you get game over 🤔🤔 If that’s actually mentioned in a novel that’d be insane
Oh yeah, I read a fanfic with the same concept! It’s really interesting to me, but is also very dark. Especially when you realize the twins/Lavenza were probably really young when they failed their journey
There's a really interesting one I heard in a podcast, Jose is supposed to become the next Igor. Igor's Japanese VA passed away awhile ago so they might've created a new character to take his place in the Velvet Room. His little button nose could grow Pinocchio style and that would fit his wish motif. His cracked egg head could be symbolizing that he just hatched and is getting ready to become the next Igor.
there is a dialouge that jose say that many are watching in their adventure i think that will be philemon obviously and other gods that doesnt have to do and watch for amusement and makoto yuki well he is stuck in the sea of soul and doesnt have anything to do other than guarding nyx from erebus and maybe its just a theory but the reason why makoto have remember the events of pq is he was like a half shadow or more like a host for 10 years and it actually change his psyke like manifesting multiple persona at once well if he can carry the burden in his psyke that is and the reason he unlock universe arcana rather than za warudo is he have more of nyx psyke than normal a person does and dont forget tjay nyx is the sole reason this universe exist in timeline branch persona universe well demon summoner if you add more (i dont know about smt main timeline though well we can consider true nyx alternate is the cosmic egg that any being want to control to make a new worlds to rule now that i think about it maybe the prince of the fall is the who will decide the next conception to link the idea in the branch timelines to the main timelines)
For the ‘Ann in Yusuke’s Room’ one, it could easily be that Ann would happily let her friend paint her (as long as it’s not nude of course lol) after spending so much time together over the year, and likely hung out with him so he could. After all, your confidants have to have some lives outside of when you need to use them for that Arcana Boost lmao
ann is also a model... her literal career is having people make several images of her, i'm sure it's not weird since yusuke is an artist. she's just a muse lol
to add onto that ann is some degree of mixed too and like if you think about really famous japanese girls (kiko mizuhara, anna tsuchiya, erika sawajiri, rola, elaiza ikeda, nicole fujita, devon aoki, kaela kimura, crystal kay, namie amuro, thelma aoyama) they're also a degree of mixed. the "mixed girl supermodel" trope is really a thing in japanese culture. yusuke is probably like totally mystified by being around someone with characteristics a japanese writer might attribute to just celebrities rather than actual people which could explain why everyone in game is mystified with ann.
Yeah I was just about to comment this is not weird at all, most artists are encouraged to draw from life models and Ann would be perfect for that as she is a model. Plus the room just shows sketches and a few paintings, most artists work on sketches and multiple concepts when creating a painting.
I've seen a theory that Koromaru's Cerebus persona actually IS his second persona, that he's already "ascended" in a sense because he's had his arc of accepting his owners death.
this is supported by Cerberus already nulling elements, when the rest starts off only resisting their respective element and gets upgraded to null when they recieve their second awakening
Cerberus’s stats also line up with character’s second awakenings right from the get go, and Koromaru’s the only character to represent the upright reading of their arcana throughout the whole game, as opposed to characters developing from reverse to upright or just staying in the reversed reading.
I really don't think that's likely, Igor has been there since Persona 1, getting rid of him would be the final "Fuck you" ATLUS could possibly give to older fans
@@derekmartin5340 The English voice, but not his Japanese, there is the issue, because in Japan recasting voice actors is a big no no, in P5 they use old lines insted of that.
@@ButIamAStick That's strange. Didnt they recasted Chihaya Mifune? In P5 she was voiced by now passed Miyu Matsuki. But in P5A, P5R she was re-voiced by Haruka Terui.
I wanna add a few things: FeMC Kasumi: that rumor was popularized by the "Jane" entry in the Smash Bros. files which mentioned a ponytail asset. Since Joker had the codename "Jack" in the files, people thought she would be an alt. costume. Concept Art Rise: to me she looks more like Ai than Saki.
that gets me wondering: whatever happened to that ponytail asset? imo I have two predictions: The it was used for Ann's pigtails, Kasumi was a scrapped background character, or it was a beta version of terry's poinytail
Im currently studying Japanese. You have my word that I will translate that Elizabeth novel once im actually proficient, no matter how good or shitty it is.
That FemC timeline is Doomed theory has one gaping hole in the form of Persona Q. That game specifically has Elizabeth summon Theodore, who according to her had been there the whole time and he would be there in case she screwed up due to her otherwise being alone. This means there must be a similar case in FemC's timeline, but Elizabeth is the one waiting around instead. In FemC's version of Arena, Margaret would probably make this version of Elizabeth do what Theo would do and vice versa, assuming of course some version of The Answer happens.
Im happy you mentioned this because when I was writing the script for this video I actually came to a similar sort of conclusion, but I ended up deleting it just cause it kinda got too convoluted and long lmao. One thing I was gonna mention as a discrepancy is that Q2 Theo sort of references being the shopkeeper in Q, and I’d like to believe they’re the same, and the same as the Arena Ultimax Theo, and that there’s just one of each of the attendants across timelines (with Theo being the canon option for FEMC), but I think it’s a definite possibility that Q2 Theo is a completely different Theo from the other timeline, the Theo where Elizabeth is the lazy one doing nothing, and that only Q and Arena Ultimax Theo are from our timeline, where he’s the lazy one. Idk if I’m making sense but yeah, it’s fun to think about 😂
@@HeavenlyM That wouldn't make sense - Theo recognizes FemC as his guest in Q2. The Velvet Attendants probably aren't even bound by the timelines - something about being between mind and matter, dream and reality, blah blah. The way I see it, Theo probably does kill Erebus every year like his sister, but the differences in their guest also have differences in their actions - Makoto is reserved, Elizabeth is outgoing, vice versa for Minako and Theodore. Theo probably accepted her sacrifice unlike his sister, and stays behind looking for a solution in his own way instead of leaving like she does, or they work together and Elizabeth does it twice while Theo stays back, and they look to solve it for both of the guests. But none of this is going to get an explanation because not really canon, so ;(
@h h Yeah I definitely prefer that explanation, I'd very much like for it to be just one Theo and one of all the attendants. Though in your theory I would disagree with Theo being able to kill Erebus, at least not without leaving like Elizabeth did, as directly interfering in the mortal world in a big way (like by killing gods) is like the ultimate sin the attendants can commit, they always talk about how they can't get that directly involved in the games. I feel like Elizabeth does it only because she left the Velvet Room, she no longer feels obligated to those rules and now directly interferes, whereas I don't think Theo would be allowed to do that unless he too left, since its their duty to just help humanity solve it themselves. But I do think that how you mention their different approaches is very true though, and that leads me to a new possibility! Assuming that there's only one of the attendants and they exist across the timelines, one extra final possibility I thought of randomly, could be flawed, is that maybe SEES just kills Erebus every year in FEMC's timeline. Maybe instead of taking it in his own hands like Elizabeth and leaving, he lets them know Erebus will come back and, sticking to the rules, said it's there problem and left it to them to take care of every year, helping once a year maybe to transport them there to fight it and back, and as such never had to leave the Velvet Room and just chills. Maybe I’m heavily brainfarting but I feel like its the most simple yet very plausible explanation, and since he himself never left like Elizabeth, that would explain why he’s confused by her actions in Arena Ultimax. I think it's what I'm leaning towards now but I could be completely wrong, I’m the exact opposite of a lore expert with these games lol But yeah I agree we'll never probably get some in depth explanation, but it is interesting to think about
Exactly what I was thinking since in the Japanese version of the Arena games, Elizabeth refers to the P3 protagonist not as 'he', but as 'they', and this also proves that the 'FeMC timeline' theory he brought up in this video is dumb and not in anyway true since I always thought that even in her timeline, Yu and Joker are still male. But the one thing we never saw is The Answer in FeMC's timeline, since The Answer was cut from Persona 3 Portable. But I'm hoping we'll finally get to see it in the inevitable HD remake of Persona 3.
I think its important to remember that a lot of the gods and deities we encounter in the persona games are only fulfilling the desires of the majority of mankind. in p4 they explicitly say this in the main story and in the dancing game: they are simply acting on mankind's wishes, while the investigation team has proved to them that not all humans want the future the god is trying to fulfill, if the majority of mankind were to wish for that again, they would come right back. So the deities arent twisted, they are just fulfilling the twisted desires and wishes that have sadly become the majority
@Declan McKenna isn't the reason that SMT 1 never happens in the persona timeline that one of the kuzonoha's killed Thor (Masquerading as the US official that nuked the world) and prevented the end from happening? Because SMT 1 guy not getting a comp wouldn't have stopped most of what happened.
Pancake treasure. I’m glad they left it at just a big possibility. Akechi having a palace has a lot of effects on his character development if the thieves would have infiltrated it.
Also, morgana said persona users couldn't have palaces as they accepted their inner shadow. They could have played it off as him losing trust in himself or something, but it would conflict with quite a bit
@@addsomepoyoprotein6738 Yeah it’s kinda a tough subject. Most people say Futaba made her palace collapse when she awakened but that could just be a change of heart. Definitely up for debate on whether having a persona makes a difference but I can see why it would
I just assume Jose was training to be a next velvet room attendant since every other attendant leaves the velvet room to an extent to learn of the real world and him being in mementos benefits him more since it's mementos. Igor just doesn't want to be alone in the velvet room and wants to chat with his attendants.
You know I'd agree if not for Marie in Persona 4 straight up saying that when the protag isn't in the room, Igor, Margret and her sit in complete silence. Igor does not move, does not blink, he probably doesn't even breathe. But most importantly he doesn't talk to her. That's why Marie is so eager to see the world, the person she's bunking with just creepily stares into space every spare second Yu isn't there
Around the time Royal released, there was also the theory/AU that Jose was supposed to Akechi's VR assistant, had he become the trrickster before Fake Igor took over Idk about how much that fits the canon, but I think it's a cool AU.
The Yusuke one me feel attacked lol As an artist, I think that's normal. Sometimes we just find a person that's very beautiful/handsome and try to draw them in different ways.
@@jmonkey106 I feel like it's less weird to have a character you know (being Ann) rather than arts of stranger girls you the player have never seen in-game
@@azureorpheus4293 The missing scarf from the textile shop that was a noose in Mayumi's dungeon. They make a huge deal about it being a clue but it goes nowhere.
@@jackflynn412 Game boy also a false lead, although handle better. It's a common practice in detective stories to have leads that goes nowhere. Investigation team were wrong about it. Doesn't deny the possibility of changing main culprit mid-production, though...
Well, i always thought that the man in the fog was Namatame. Like... He don't know anything about TV world. The only thing he knew is if the person appear on the TV at the Midnight Channel, they will die and be hanged. So i guess that Namatame waited the fog, then went on the street to check if he's "saving" went well.
I like the Jokers parents are Vincent and one of the Catherine's from Catherine theory. Spoiler for Catherine Full Body: in demon Catherine true ending there's a picture of the couple and 4 kids. One of them a boy with black hair. Also wearing something similar to the P5 tracksuits. Some say that boy is Joker
Ah man that Takaya being from the Velvet Room one makes sense too cuz he's the only non-robot in the game who can summon without an Evoker, which is a common schtick with Velvet Room attendants (not using the Summon gimmick the players use)
From what I know, it's mentioned in the game that it's possible to summon Personas without Evokers, it's just very hard. Not mocking the theory, tho. Gun Jesus IS a bit suspicious.
Anyone can summon a Persona without an Evoker with enough training. All of the P1/P2 cast can do it, and Akihiko reveals he can do it too in Ultimax, and implies so can Mitsuru.
There are a couple things to keep in mind: 1. According to some Q&A that Atlus did, the sea of souls and subsequently Personas were born from living beings to protect themselves from Death, Nyx, when her body crashed into the earth 2. It's stated multiple times that Evokers were designed to force a fight-or-flight reaction on those with potential by reminding them that death is always near and unavoidable using plumes of dusk 3. The dark hour isn't some special alternative plane like the tv world or Mementos When you connect the dots it's clear that Personas *can* be summoned by whoever has potential even in the real world, but to do so you have to accept death and it's inevitability to trigger one's soul defense mechanism: a Persona. Takaya, being the antithesis of P3's messages, believes that death is everywhere and you cannot escape it, being that the reason Strega lives in the moment, and he himself doesn't care if he dies
Major props for getting the Phantom Thief Hifumi trivia right. Way too many believe and repeat that Hifumi the character was going to be a Phantom Thief, so I'm glad someone did proper research.
@@HeavenlyM nah, p3 is definitely the game with things more loose than other games P4 resolves everything within the game or spin offs, P5 is most likely to start a saga around cognitions and guys like Maruki So many P5 theories could be bad due to lack of info, like what’s going on with Jose,
Some extras: - 9:54 Yukiko was also rumored to have once been the culprit. - If I recall correctly, dataminers found Sho labeled as the P5 MC in Ultimax's data. People genuinely thought he return as the protagonist of Persona 5. It might have just been a ruse though. - I don't know if this is super surprising, but the P1 and P2 cast are still out there. The Kirijo group branched out from the Nanjo group, and Katsuya is interviewed on a TV in Persona 5. They're still there and the P1 and EP cast still have their Personas. By extension, since IIRC a lot more people than just the main characters have Personas in those games, there's probably just random Persona users running around in the background of P3-5. - SMT if... is Persona canon and Devil Summoners exist in Persona.
Persona seems like SMT, but if the fates of ruin or dark fogs rolling in were prevented before they could happen and thus, saving the world and preventing the events of SMT from happening
The "Man in the Fog" could have been Sho Minazuki. It's explained that he watched the Investigation Team solve the murders, perhaps he was aware that people died when they were thrown into the TVs and became disappointed when they weren't turning up....... Maybe it was instead Mitsuo?
Someone had made a list of shows that were popular with the mainstream that would eventually end up as victims of the midnight channel and what finally pushed the Investigation Team in the right direction. I don't believe it was ever mentioned who made that list, but its interesting why someone would keep making that list if nothing ever truly happened after Saki's death.
Actually, there's unused clips in Persona 4's files being voiced versions of the man in the fog scenes, which do confirm that the man in the fog is Adachi.
That Makoto remembers Persona Q story is crazy interesting. To know that not only was he fighting to save the world, but for other Persona users who would come afterwards. I could honestly tie in the P3D Elizabeth into the theory as well, just to add suspense for Makoto
21:09 This part in particular really shows how important this battle was to Makoto. It explains why he would go so far as to sacrifice himself and become the seal that holds Nyx back. *”This future can form from you alone, but only if your willing to make it your own.”*
Going back to the pantheon theory, I can just imagine Izanami going to where ever the hell gods go to meet up and shit goes like this: Izanami: FUCKING HATE THOSE LITTLE SHITS Yaldabaoth: I can't believe you lost to a couple of teens Izanami: I WOULD LOVE TO SEE YOU TRY Yaldabaoth: Ight bet *Like 5-6 years later* Yaldabaoth: I FUCKING HATE THOSE LITTLE SHITS Izanami: I cAnT beLiEvE yOu lOSt tO a cOuPle oF TeEnS
@@theghostofjeffgoldblumdail9613 what if they're distantly connected, mementos most likely splits off from just one city so it would make sense if there was a way to get to mementos from tartarus
@@nerosoul2506 that's not possible, the Dark Hour is gone and it took Tartarus with it, 7 years prior to P5, they're the product of different deities and if they were somehow connected, Mementos and probably the entire Metaverse would've disappeared a long time ago, and Shibuya and Port Island are really far away from each other and and you can't just teleport to Mementos from anywhere since the thieves have to actually be in the subway when they activate the nav for it to work
I like the theory that all the "Gods" you fight in the later games are actually fragments of Nyarlathotep and the Velvet Room Attendents are fragments of Philemon. It kind of links them all together.
After playing Persona 2 it really makes sense because every modern Persona game feels like a piece of Persona 2 themes. Persona 3 - unconscious desire to end the world, moving on after death Persona 4 - accepting yourself, shadows, serial killer Persona 5 - unconscious desire to have someone who will achieve everything for you, Yaldabaoth, rival-friend Akechi Honestly, after Persona 2 that had massive range of themes, themes of P3-5 feels... Somewhat shallow. Ok, I still love themes of P3 and P5R, but they are not as good as p2
My head canon is that "the man in the fog" is actually sho minazuki from persona 4 arena ultimax In that game it says that sho was in inaba when the murder case was going on and he enjoy watching how the murder case plays out
@@edgelessspace7180 He could've enjoyed watching the case play out because he felt frustrated that nobody ever died, and continued watching in hopes that someone eventually would. Kind of a stretch, but then again a lot of these theories are just big brain exercises.
Haru being a traitor isn't THAT far-fetched to be honest... She even says she has some doubts about the Phantom Thieves after her dad died... But Akechi does basically admit to murdering him in Shido's palace, which definitely cleared any doubts she might've kept around. But before that, who knows what she did or didn't do...
The *Makoto remembers Q* theory makes my heart swell, knowing his sacrifice in the end with Nyx. Not only was he fighting to save the world, but for the battles to come. Link that with the *P3D Elizabeth isn’t P3 Elizabeth* makes their story even more sad. The silent secret between them, and his sacrifice in the final battle, motivated her to bring him back. God damn Persona 3 has *LAYERS.*
About the last one, I think the case just is that there are multiple Velvet Rooms, one for each timeline, which do not share the attendants. Maybe they share the same Igor, who knows, but I'd say the Theodore in P3P and Theodore in P4AU are not the same person. I don't remember there being a time where it has been claimed that each timeline has the same Velvet Room, just that Igor is aware of the existance of the other timelines.
Fandom went from "nobody" to nightmare thanks to Smash. There aren't enough series veterans in general, let alone ones that are also influencers, so there's nothing keeping casual toxicity and misinformation in check.
even if we have a pretty chill side, the smt/persona community will continue to have some toxicity. Lot of people blame smash even though it was pretty popular when p5 first released.
@@MoguMogu818 Smash wasn't the only cause, that much I'll give you, but it was the largest one by far. Heck, if the Twitter portbeggars are anything to go by, Royal became the viral sensation that it was when it came out because of Smash. (Mind you, I'm not against Royal on Switch, just wish people weren't so obnoxious about it. They have tons of Megaten games at their disposal that they haven't even touched)
@@SonnyFRST yea that #breakfreepersona trend was annoying as shit and really just pissed off everyone. It got Atlus jp to shut down its survey because of it. I'm not against it either but damn do some of them act dumb when it comes to ports. It only grew a bit more or less toxic with p4g coming to pc, and not royal to switch.
@@MoguMogu818 its not like persona has been a playstation exclusive for its entire 20 year history or anything, with the exception of Q and the P4G port... lol. It's like asking for Ratchet and Clank on switch
Since I'm a huge persona 2 fan, I wanted to mention a few obscure things that were left out of the list The anime- Okay this should be more near the top since I think a lot of people know about this, but there was a cancelled persona 2 anime trailer at one point that can easily be accessed by just looking it up. It's really ashamed that nothing was done with it The P2 mangas/novels- Yes the P2 manga is pretty well known, but there is another one with a completely new protagonist with new people entirely, kinda like Trinity soul. The novels are centered around Ana, if I'm not mistaken, and give her own perspective on things through... I think it was the eternal punishment timeline? Tatsuya's scenario- this should be more well known but apparently it's not. It's a Japanese exclusive side story involving Tatsuya's side of eternal punishment. This is in the PSP version, so it can't be played in English, however it is translated online and it's an interesting read P2 world book- basically it's a guide book that's all in Japanese that has recently been translated. It gives a lot more information about the main characters that wasn't said about them in the games. Oddly enough, Tatsuya has a different birthday in the world book than the birthday he has in eternal punishment that everyone got familiar with
One specific Persona 5 mechanic that basicly no one ever experience because of how precise you have to be with your confidant answers, is the fact that Joker can be rejected when they confess to a love interest! After having played both versions for over 1000 hours each, i experienced during a "do as little as possible" run that if you don't choose at least one of a few specific triggers during a confidant, you can try to romance the character like normal, but they will instead just reject you, or at least not take you seriously, locking you out of their romance entirely! Chihaya for instance have a few instances at rank 6 and 8 where she kinda prods Joker for any sort of interest in her, and if you answer as wrongly as possible, which you would never do in a serious playthrough as it hurts your ability to rank her up, but if you decide to do it but then suddenly shows an interest in her during her cutoff scene at rank 9, she will think you were sent by her parents to keep an eye on her, and Joker will comment to himself "I've been rejected"... It's such a weird thing that they put in scenes for players who would need to activly sabotage themselves in this way to see them, but still try for the romance!
@@Downval Kinda depends on what your goal was with the playthrough i guess. If you wanted to maximize everything, while also romancing Takemi, but somehow still managed to get everything wrong enough to be rejected, i would say it's impressivly terrible choices you must have made, while thinking they were correct! But if you just tried to be sassy Joker like many people i know, who simply HAVE to go with the weirdest and funniest dialogue choices every time, i CAN see this happen organicly in rare cases... It's kinda the same story as getting everyone killed in Mass Effect 2 without trying to, where having a few or even most of your crew die is very possible, but actually managing to kill everyone "by accident" is so rare and hard to do, that it's difficult to believe someone could get that outcome without some serious planning, or at least a fundamental lack of understanding of how the game works...
You could have added a "Nyx created the Collective Uncounciouss" in there. On the Persona 3 Club Book, there is a Q&A section where characters such as Ikutsuki and Aigis break the fourth wall to explain some things about the Persona 3 plot and the Persona universe as a whole. According to them, Nyx was a being known as Starkiller, a incredibly huge and immensely powerful creature that wandered the universe consuming planets. Upon reaching Earth millions of years ago, she crashlanded and her body would result in the moon while her psyche remained on Earth. This magical psyche was harmful to the organic life on the planet so the Collective Uncounciouss was created in order to protect the life that existed. This would also result in humans evolving into sapience to better repress Nyx's pysche. Shadows are the remains of Nyx's pysche, constantly wanting to be reunited with her, however they have also an essencial part of humankind (and thus when someone's shadow is killed, they just collapse). All the worlds and all the gods of the Persona universe come from Collective Uncounciouss, which in turn comes from Nyx. She is the source of all magic in the Persona universe.
Except that doesn't match up with the lore? Because Persona comes from an alternate timeline that Raido Kuzunoha made by traveling back in time to stop the end of the end of the world that happened towards the end of the first Shin Megami Tensei. Hell, people were only given the power of Persona by Philemon (the master of the collective unconscious), because the demon Nyarlathotep (not a being related to the collective unconscious) proposed an experiment to see if humanity would become enlightened, or destroy itself completely. This means that gods, demons, and magic are all unrelated to the collective unconscious.
@@elk3407 It could be that, yes. Persona lore is often times convoluted and contradictory. Regardless of what you think though, "Nyx created the Collective Uncounciouss and gods and demons come from it" is what is explicitly stated on the Persona 3 Club Book.
@@FeCyrineu Albeit Elizabeth herself seems to retcon part of this mentioning that the Collective Unconcious has been around way longer even before Nyx's arrival to Earth to expedite humanity's evolution according to Elizabeth's story in Persona 4 Arena. I suppose the CI became "active" just to suppress the deathly waves? It's an odd concept.
You probably know this one: Rise was originally not planned to be an Idol , she was going to be a female delicuent. I guess that Rise was going to share the Kanji Arc
Given that her original design also resembles Ai to an extent (I always felt she and Saki looked a little similar) I wonder if this could imply that Ai was based on this earlier plan for Rise.
@@HeavenlyM Sorry for a bit of a necro, but to further explain. Rise was originally Ai Ebihara's character. When Atlus decided they needed more characters they added Kanji and Naoto as the hooligan and boy detective trope. They then thought adding an idol trope character would be funny and the new Rise was created.
This video gave me a theory for what happens in the FeMC version of the Answer, what if in the FeMC timeline Shinji gets the wild card abilities instead since he was the main thing that changed in that timeline
I think it’s actually possible people lose their Persona’s with age. Which could be why everyone Igor has sought out has been around the same age. Plus, at the end of P4, Igor talks about how it will be the last time they will see each other, and the last time he will be allowed in the velvet room. Because of the dancing and arena ultimax games, we know that they don’t lose their personas then and there, but, maybe when they’re in their 30’s or 40’s the ability goes away. The persona games also make it a point to show that personas are malleable. They can grow and evolve as the user grows. So if one was to regress, surely the persona could regress as well, and if the user gets really down, vanish entirely. But that is not to say it is gone forever, if they face themselves once again, they could regain their persona, and maybe it would even be different this time, because the struggles the user was dealing with could be different.
@Declan McKenna oh thats awesome, i haven't played 1 and 2 yet so I didn't know that, thanks for the info! I agree that personas don't have to vanish with age, but was more saying that it makes sense as to why they would. That aging is more correlation than causation for losing a persona, and that personas can in fact be lost. and in the same vain, they can be kept with age as well
@@maccamachine”…we need a persona game with actual adults or at least a few older characters” *Persona 2 Eternal Punishment has entered the chat*
You’re theory of a Persona pantheon is actually somewhat confirmed in the psp version of Eternal Punishment. In there is a new area you can go to where basically all Personas live and come from. While in there you can actually find Izanami and Nyx.
You Know I Think Elizabeth is trying to save both Makoto And Kotone From the seal of Nyx, because both Kotone and Elizabeth both in the P3P cd drama the female version
The "FeMC Timeline Doomed" theory killed me emotionally; God, I almost cried. The thought of FeMC's world being destroyed because of Erebus and the fall scares me to no end, so hopefully her timeline is actually fine...
I’m so, SO glad you talked about “Elizabeth and Mementos.” I thought I was the only one who believes that saving Minato/Makoto’s soul from the seal is actually possible. A personal theory of mine is that a cognitive version of his soul (or 1/2 of his actual soul) is used as part of the seal, and the rest of his soul is in Heaven (I’m a Christian, so this is just me thinking in a religious aspect). Not to mention that Makoto’s final persona is “Messiah” is translated to the word “Christ” and his Persona is the “Holy Spirit” of the Trinity, God in three forms: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It’s real that God conquers death, and since Messiah is your final persona you acquire (or I should at least hope you did so throughout your gameplay) Makoto’s spirit has already been saved, and a cognition of his soul lives on within his physical body through the rest of the game once you obtain Messiah.
God exists in this series, but after life is a bit different, it's a bit hard to pin down exactly what kind of afterlife exists in the series but we know Charon still ferries the dead to the afterlife and most protagonists that have died go to some sort of paradise (though this might be because they are a reincarnation of Adam). Hell also exists, as the player character of the first devil summoner can attest to, though what decides where you go is still a mystery to me.)
Though YHVH in MegaTen is a complete power hungry dictator, so I would hope P3 protag didn't become another disposable pawn for his plans, or else I would have to kill him in my Neutral and Chaos playthroughs. Law route is always one of the worst, btw.
Late comment on my part, but we factually know, based off all available evidence, that Makoto can't truly be 'saved'. The entire point is to prevent Erebus from reaching Nyx via the Sea of Souls, and Erebus, like all of the gods in the series, can't actually be permanently killed bar killing all of humanity or something similar. The only way to stop him would be either doing that, or somehow preventing all of humanity from wishing sub consciously for death. Which is impossible, obviously, because you would have to end human suffering and cause a utopia or some shit. Which...well, I suppose I should re-word; Its impossible unless you do some Maruki-style shit, which has its own slight (read; gigantic) problems.
23:16 while playing p3d recently, I thought that theory was pretty apparent. Not only does the game of course take place post-P5 (implying that’s been awhile after P4AU for everyone, not just the phantom thieves), despite the velvet room not being linked to time as we now. But the idea that there’s P4AU songs, outfits, etc. Probably this is due to Elizabeth knowing Labrys and Sho to then bring them to the velvet club to dance, despite SEES not meeting them yet (or Makoto who just didn’t get to even do that). Or maybe I’m thinking too much into DLCs haha
The biggest things debunking Trinity Soul’s canonical status is Akihiko still being a persona user in Persona Arena, and Adachi and Zenkichi both being fairly old while still having Personas
I just read that first chapter of shadow cry that you mentioned, and now i absolutely want more. Atlus should just officially translate these novels for the west, that's some easy money right there
I was though the person on the fog was supposed to be Namatame, but now that I think about it, it doesn't make sense since Namatame's goal was for the victims to get saved by the Investigation Team. It really is a big plothole, huh?
Wait till you find out there's an unused voice clip of the person saying "Again..." buried in the files of P4 It's supposedly Adachi, which confuses me even more 😭
Maybe since this is persona we’re talking about it’s the subconscious desire of the people of inaba wanting to see more dead bodies in order to create interest in their small town.
Now THIS is quality content, when you know you'll need something to drink and relax cuz you're in for a ride of a video. Thanks for doing this bro, I know it takes a crazy amount of time you could've been doing something else. Great vid.
This was super informative and interesting-I hadn’t heard of most of these before, so it was a lot of fun getting to hear the different theories. I also really appreciated the closed captions.
What if Lisa Silverman and Ann Takamaki are related? Like Lisa is Ann’s mom or something? Lisa is half American and Ann is a quarter American and they both got blue eyes and light blonde/blonde-ish hair.
They be an awesome mom daughter but the timeline conflicts since Ann was born 1999 and P2 too place 1999/2000. Same with my own Jun is Yusuke father theory
@@l.7433 the Yosukes eye glitch is a weird eye that appeared on Yosukes persona stat screen in the original version of p4. The original theory was that it appeared when you maxed out his social link on his birthday. There’s a video in the series pop fiction on RUclips that investigated and talked to a contact who worked on the game saying that the eye was not an intentional secret. They labeled the eye as a glitch since it didn’t return in persona 4 golden
If I recall correctly, there was plans to add both Dojima and Nanako as playable characters in arena but got scrapped as the devs were unsure of what to do with them.
I’ve got one: in Joker’s cell in the Velvet Room, there’s a toilet. If Joker poops himself in the dream- does that mean that he poops himself irl? Interesting.
i just found your channel the other day and i loved all of your videos and glad i got back from school to see this. much love HeavenlyM i think your content is genuinely amazing
Adding to the last theory: I think the reason why Theodore doesn't leave the Velvet Room like Elizabeth does is because of their different social link 10's. In Elizabeth's 10th social link, it's implied that she and MC spent an intimate moment together in his bedroom. But in Theodore's 10th social link, he backs off and says that a human and a Velvet Room attendant shouldn't be that close to each other, and everytime you try to talk to him after that he pleads you not to do so. Theodore is supposed to be an exact copy of Elizabeth, just as a guy. So either he's not a perfect copy of her, or the fact that he's a guy, and a gentleman, made him way more cautious of doing anything to a girl, as opposed to a girl(Elizabeth) doing anything with a guy(MC). So basically, Theodore and FeMC not getting laid doomed their timeline.
IS there more paintings of Ann in Yusuke's room or is that it shown in the vid? cause from an artist's view. it looks like yusuke has concept sketches of his finalized ann painting that he has in his room. meaning all this time he has been trying to perfect his vision of ann's beauty. also for the ann painting that looks decent and has scratched out with an x is pretty ironic because it's actually not that bad and i'm guessing the pun here is that yusuke's an eccentric artist so he wouldn't settle for less. idk thats how i saw it.
15:32 i had actually been thinking about this myself and im certain its a seperate entity that izanami also shook hands with. when you confront izanagi she always refers to the people she shook hands with as three or names them directly, but at one point she says "a handful of strangers" instead, which is probably just a coincidence but it's fun to think
The only issue with Jose being from the Velvet Room is that all Velvet Room characters (except Philemon) are named after Frankenstein, either the original novel or a film adaptation. The only connection I can make between "Jose" and Frankenstein is that Cuba artist Jose Mors wrote a Frankenstein Rock Opera, which I suppose could work, but it's certainly a departure from the usual sources (films and the novel) when there are still unused male names left.
Or alternatively, to keep with the Frankenstein theme, we could get Victor from the Devil Summoner series to replace Igor as a fun nod to an older MegaTen series.
There's a small theory that Yukiko was supposed to be the killer. Some of the early dialogue revolving around the Amagi Inn and her mother sounded suspicious, and Yukiko does occasionally show bits of sadism, though far less than Haru or Mitsuru. Moreover, the concept art for Yukiko painted her as a more cold and distant figure, slightly different from the more aloof Yukiko whom you meet at the beginning.
Regarding the Pantheon theory, it's at least somewhat canon when looking at the Law vs. Chaos theming throughout the greater whole of MegaTen, specifically mainline SMT. It's literally two different forces of Demons (which are confirmed to be the same as Shadows thanks to P5) working together to achieve a certain goal, usually involving a recreation of the world to fit the image of their leader. (YHVH for Law, Lucifer for Chaos.)
I had just beat Royal for the first time like a month ago so my knowledge of persona is pretty weak lmao hearing all of these theories is kinda crazy ngl
This iceberg video is miles better compared to others, in depth theories and explanations for each title and not face value information nobody cares about. Good job my man this one was really enjoyable
It would be very interesting to see Elizabeth get the P5 gang to help her. Although, if Atlus did that, they'd need to obviously get the P4 and P3 gangs, too. Although, I don't think that would happen
hm, was expecting yosukes un-used social link voice lines to show up but this was still a really good video. ive been into persona for some time now but never looked into theories so i kind of understand that side of the fandom now.
10:54 Ok this is my mini theory with little evidence but I think Shadow Teddie is connected to "The man in the fog" since Shadow Teddie has two Dialologues where he mentions the fog (one in Persona 4 & one in Persona 4 Arena Ultimax) -"The truth is unattainable ... It will always be shrouded in fog." -"All that needs to exist is the end that you desire. Just shroud everything in fog again..."
The mysterious unused model found in Persona 5 is named Test-Size. Lots of people believe that Test-Size was the original protagonist to Persona 5 or Ren’s female counterpart as Minako is to Makoto. Her model poses exactly like like Ren’s original render from P5, (legs apart stance, left arm to the side and holding the leg of glasses). She also appears in two pieces of art and her model can be found in the game’s files. You can even spawn her in if you’d like. I would like to believe that Test-Size was another Phantom, I took it upon myself to flesh her out for shits and giggles. I think she’s neat and would have been a wonderful addition.
I'd like to think that the man in the fog is sho minazuki, considering he loved death and gets pissed easily. Also, sho has followed the investigation team from the very beginning, but with little encounters as possible. This is why we never see, nor would he follow them in attempting to save people, which is why he'd wait for a foggy day to happen, since he can't go in the tv himself.
for the pantheon theory i think i can give you an explanation. Persona probably follow the same chaos/law/neutral allayment from megaten, as deity like izanami and nyx seems to follow the same beliefs they have in other megaten games.
I love how this game draws heavy inspo from Edgar Allen Poe, and Carl jung. Jung is pretty obvious but with Poe the song for p5 aka the lounging song when ur in the cafe references a poem by him and the velvet room is also a reference too. Edgar wrote about the stages of death and the velvet room being the last place. Thought it was a cool little thing to mention too
Man! That was so interesting! Spoilers from the video: Specially the Elizabeth not being P3 Elizabeth on P3D! I also believe that Jose is a creation of Elizabeth, iirc he does mention something about his master when you get all the achievements that does hint that is Elizabeth.
27:46 I've seen it in a number of rather casual exchanges that a lot of people have the headcanon that Elizabeth is made of sterner stuff than Theodore, and that she is still the one who goes out on a journey for FeMC, but instead of it being due to her own feelings, it's too meme her brother's broken heart. Once or twice I've seen the further detail that Theodore's memories are locked and he's given less complicated tasks as well because all his growth as an Attendant is tied in with his memories of FeMC, so he's just not good enough to do more difficult tasks without those memories, and he'd be unable to work at all with those memories.
If you're wondering where I've been for almost 3 weeks, THIS is where I've been! I sincerely hope you enjoy the fruits of my longgg labor. Not planning on making a super long video again for a long time, so I promise I wont be gone for 3 weeks again anytime soon :)
Speaking of this video, I really enjoyed making it. Definitely didn't get too dark, but I hope you at least learned something new and interesting.
Now with this out of the way, I'll be back soon in a couple days with 2 videos, the first being the Q&A (remember when I said I was gonna do that? lol) and What Your P3 Waifu Says at long last, so look forward to that and stay tuned and stay well as always.
So if all endings are cannon wouldn’t that mean there are multiple deities? For instance multiple Marie’s, Izanami’s, and Yaldaboath’s.
@@SSJUnderDog I think so, since in the theory they're all parallel universes where everything is the same
@@HeavenlyM now that I think about it. Wouldn’t that be impossible for the persona 5 deadline endings? Because all the deadline bad endings are Joker not remembering right when talking to sae. All the endings lead back up to November after Sae’s palace.
@@SSJUnderDog there’s the universe where Joker didn’t remember correctly, and there’s the universe where Joker actually failed to meet the deadline and he ended up getting arrested that way, there are probably a ton of other universes that also deviate from what we see in the game, there could be a universe where Joker didn’t join the phantom thieves until Sae’s palace, one where Akechi was never evil, heck the adult confidant AU could be canon, if there’s a shin megami tensei multiverse, anything that can happen, has happened
Why is detective naoto there, but not detective nanako
I have one: The scene where Joker sees Akechi on the train is a reference to when Yu sees Adachi in the Accomplice Ending
I actually didn't know that, that's pretty neat!
Also in yongen there's a p4 reference there is a white scooter and a green bike next to a trash can. If you don't know and never played p4 the scooter is yu's and In the green bike is when yosuke got stuck in a trash can.
@@luna28080 so Yu lives in Yongen?
@@LelouchOnTwi well if you think Before p4 they said that Yu lived in tokyo so maybe him and yosuke were hanging out and went to his home town but I'm not sure because I'm just theorizing. But I'm also thinking that Akira's home town might have been in Inaba but I don't know.
@@luna28080 glad to know that I wasn’t the only one who thought joker came from inaba
I read a fanfic once that entertained the idea of the velvet room attendants being former wild card users that failed and died on their journey. When a person asked the author for the inspiration. In the comments the author wrote it was heavily implied in a persona novel he once read. I searched but I could never find anything about its existence. so I shrugged it off until now. In the games When you die you go to the velvet room and get that dialogue from Igor then the game ends so it kind of makes sense.
That actually sounds so dark but really interesting actually, and you’re right, it is where you get game over 🤔🤔 If that’s actually mentioned in a novel that’d be insane
That's one hell of a fine print a to miss on the contract, I guess the only person exempt for that is makoto, huh?
Ayo what's the name of the fanfic tho
@@malice138 I really want to read it too. Commenting so I can see if anyone finds it.
Oh yeah, I read a fanfic with the same concept!
It’s really interesting to me, but is also very dark. Especially when you realize the twins/Lavenza were probably really young when they failed their journey
Imagine Nanako drugging Kanji and throwing him into the TV.
Then the song "Heaven" should be renamed as hell
I did and it only got funnier the more I thought about it
Nanako kills you ASMR
Reminds me of Fargo
Pretty obscure theory I saw browsing around one day: Yusuke's father is the Demon Painter from P2 and is the reason he can make skill cards
The Demon Painter is based on Kazuma Kaneko so that would make Yusuke the son of the artist that designed most of the iconic megaten demons
@@KrankuSama makes sense
So Demon Painter and Saiyuri got it on, eh?
I am taking this Head canon for myself
There's a really interesting one I heard in a podcast, Jose is supposed to become the next Igor. Igor's Japanese VA passed away awhile ago so they might've created a new character to take his place in the Velvet Room. His little button nose could grow Pinocchio style and that would fit his wish motif. His cracked egg head could be symbolizing that he just hatched and is getting ready to become the next Igor.
@@markus8994 They didn't. The JP real Igor in P5 just uses recycled voice lines from previous games. That's why he barely says anything
HELL YEAH EGG BOI GAINS NOSE
I think his appearance is unique, as he implies that like Aeigis, he used to be a "doll" before given life.
@@superbeaner4428 well igor was a doll made and given life and purpose by philly
there is a dialouge that jose say that many are watching in their adventure i think that will be philemon obviously and other gods that doesnt have to do and watch for amusement and makoto yuki well he is stuck in the sea of soul and doesnt have anything to do other than guarding nyx from erebus and maybe its just a theory but the reason why makoto have remember the events of pq is he was like a half shadow or more like a host for 10 years and it actually change his psyke like manifesting multiple persona at once well if he can carry the burden in his psyke that is and the reason he unlock universe arcana rather than za warudo is he have more of nyx psyke than normal a person does and dont forget tjay nyx is the sole reason this universe exist in timeline branch persona universe well demon summoner if you add more (i dont know about smt main timeline though well we can consider true nyx alternate is the cosmic egg that any being want to control to make a new worlds to rule now that i think about it maybe the prince of the fall is the who will decide the next conception to link the idea in the branch timelines to the main timelines)
I still think akechi’s mask is a handmedown from Igor in his golden days
I never realized the similarity till you mentioned it just now but omg, you’re right
What golden days?
@@Guysavage Sort of building on an idea that Igor used to be a metaverse traveler before he guided the protagonists
Hmm possible
Tgaming173 except he wasnt...
For the ‘Ann in Yusuke’s Room’ one, it could easily be that Ann would happily let her friend paint her (as long as it’s not nude of course lol) after spending so much time together over the year, and likely hung out with him so he could. After all, your confidants have to have some lives outside of when you need to use them for that Arcana Boost lmao
Personally I took at as him making one painting and having a few sketch ideas and practices for the final... It's not nude so it seems perfectly fine
ann is also a model... her literal career is having people make several images of her, i'm sure it's not weird since yusuke is an artist. she's just a muse lol
to add onto that ann is some degree of mixed too and like
if you think about really famous japanese girls (kiko mizuhara, anna tsuchiya, erika sawajiri, rola, elaiza ikeda, nicole fujita, devon aoki, kaela kimura, crystal kay, namie amuro, thelma aoyama) they're also a degree of mixed. the "mixed girl supermodel" trope is really a thing in japanese culture. yusuke is probably like totally mystified by being around someone with characteristics a japanese writer might attribute to just celebrities rather than actual people which could explain why everyone in game is mystified with ann.
@@tei4724 that's what I thought too
Yeah I was just about to comment this is not weird at all, most artists are encouraged to draw from life models and Ann would be perfect for that as she is a model. Plus the room just shows sketches and a few paintings, most artists work on sketches and multiple concepts when creating a painting.
I've seen a theory that Koromaru's Cerebus persona actually IS his second persona, that he's already "ascended" in a sense because he's had his arc of accepting his owners death.
Never seen that one before but I actually like that a lot, makes a ton of sense
this is supported by Cerberus already nulling elements, when the rest starts off only resisting their respective element and gets upgraded to null when they recieve their second awakening
Cerberus’s stats also line up with character’s second awakenings right from the get go, and Koromaru’s the only character to represent the upright reading of their arcana throughout the whole game, as opposed to characters developing from reverse to upright or just staying in the reversed reading.
Late to the party, but this is confirmed in p3 reload
I can totally see Jose take over Igor's role in Persona 6
I really don't think that's likely, Igor has been there since Persona 1, getting rid of him would be the final "Fuck you" ATLUS could possibly give to older fans
@@virtualemerald3401 but his Japanese VA is dead, I don't think fans will happy if atlus just recast him
@@albumkosong they've already recasted him like 3 times.
@@derekmartin5340 The English voice, but not his Japanese, there is the issue, because in Japan recasting voice actors is a big no no, in P5 they use old lines insted of that.
@@ButIamAStick
That's strange. Didnt they recasted Chihaya Mifune? In P5 she was voiced by now passed Miyu Matsuki.
But in P5A, P5R she was re-voiced by Haruka Terui.
I wanna add a few things:
FeMC Kasumi: that rumor was popularized by the "Jane" entry in the Smash Bros. files which mentioned a ponytail asset. Since Joker had the codename "Jack" in the files, people thought she would be an alt. costume.
Concept Art Rise: to me she looks more like Ai than Saki.
Definitely should’ve mentioned the Jane thing! I’m mad at myself cause I remember that too, I love Smash and follow leaks like a hound 😂
that gets me wondering: whatever happened to that ponytail asset? imo I have two predictions: The it was used for Ann's pigtails, Kasumi was a scrapped background character, or it was a beta version of terry's poinytail
@@dave6324 I hear the Jill valentine was meant to be in smash bros but got scrapped
@@raheemaslam7363 wtf really? I would’ve love that 😭
@@spiritedangel333 Yeah, Jill is more relevant to videogame history than the kakarot-look-alike and disney's princess boy.
Im currently studying Japanese. You have my word that I will translate that Elizabeth novel once im actually proficient, no matter how good or shitty it is.
we shall be waiting chosen one
@@khaibreakbread4650 I got you dude.
🐐
*Waits*
Good job, bro!
You have my condolences.
That FemC timeline is Doomed theory has one gaping hole in the form of Persona Q. That game specifically has Elizabeth summon Theodore, who according to her had been there the whole time and he would be there in case she screwed up due to her otherwise being alone. This means there must be a similar case in FemC's timeline, but Elizabeth is the one waiting around instead. In FemC's version of Arena, Margaret would probably make this version of Elizabeth do what Theo would do and vice versa, assuming of course some version of The Answer happens.
Im happy you mentioned this because when I was writing the script for this video I actually came to a similar sort of conclusion, but I ended up deleting it just cause it kinda got too convoluted and long lmao. One thing I was gonna mention as a discrepancy is that Q2 Theo sort of references being the shopkeeper in Q, and I’d like to believe they’re the same, and the same as the Arena Ultimax Theo, and that there’s just one of each of the attendants across timelines (with Theo being the canon option for FEMC), but I think it’s a definite possibility that Q2 Theo is a completely different Theo from the other timeline, the Theo where Elizabeth is the lazy one doing nothing, and that only Q and Arena Ultimax Theo are from our timeline, where he’s the lazy one. Idk if I’m making sense but yeah, it’s fun to think about 😂
@@HeavenlyM That wouldn't make sense - Theo recognizes FemC as his guest in Q2. The Velvet Attendants probably aren't even bound by the timelines - something about being between mind and matter, dream and reality, blah blah. The way I see it, Theo probably does kill Erebus every year like his sister, but the differences in their guest also have differences in their actions - Makoto is reserved, Elizabeth is outgoing, vice versa for Minako and Theodore. Theo probably accepted her sacrifice unlike his sister, and stays behind looking for a solution in his own way instead of leaving like she does, or they work together and Elizabeth does it twice while Theo stays back, and they look to solve it for both of the guests.
But none of this is going to get an explanation because not really canon, so ;(
@h h Yeah I definitely prefer that explanation, I'd very much like for it to be just one Theo and one of all the attendants. Though in your theory I would disagree with Theo being able to kill Erebus, at least not without leaving like Elizabeth did, as directly interfering in the mortal world in a big way (like by killing gods) is like the ultimate sin the attendants can commit, they always talk about how they can't get that directly involved in the games. I feel like Elizabeth does it only because she left the Velvet Room, she no longer feels obligated to those rules and now directly interferes, whereas I don't think Theo would be allowed to do that unless he too left, since its their duty to just help humanity solve it themselves. But I do think that how you mention their different approaches is very true though, and that leads me to a new possibility!
Assuming that there's only one of the attendants and they exist across the timelines, one extra final possibility I thought of randomly, could be flawed, is that maybe SEES just kills Erebus every year in FEMC's timeline. Maybe instead of taking it in his own hands like Elizabeth and leaving, he lets them know Erebus will come back and, sticking to the rules, said it's there problem and left it to them to take care of every year, helping once a year maybe to transport them there to fight it and back, and as such never had to leave the Velvet Room and just chills. Maybe I’m heavily brainfarting but I feel like its the most simple yet very plausible explanation, and since he himself never left like Elizabeth, that would explain why he’s confused by her actions in Arena Ultimax. I think it's what I'm leaning towards now but I could be completely wrong, I’m the exact opposite of a lore expert with these games lol
But yeah I agree we'll never probably get some in depth explanation, but it is interesting to think about
@@funnyaccountname5763 the q and arena games were confirmed to be canon
Exactly what I was thinking since in the Japanese version of the Arena games, Elizabeth refers to the P3 protagonist not as 'he', but as 'they', and this also proves that the 'FeMC timeline' theory he brought up in this video is dumb and not in anyway true since I always thought that even in her timeline, Yu and Joker are still male. But the one thing we never saw is The Answer in FeMC's timeline, since The Answer was cut from Persona 3 Portable. But I'm hoping we'll finally get to see it in the inevitable HD remake of Persona 3.
I think its important to remember that a lot of the gods and deities we encounter in the persona games are only fulfilling the desires of the majority of mankind. in p4 they explicitly say this in the main story and in the dancing game: they are simply acting on mankind's wishes, while the investigation team has proved to them that not all humans want the future the god is trying to fulfill, if the majority of mankind were to wish for that again, they would come right back.
So the deities arent twisted, they are just fulfilling the twisted desires and wishes that have sadly become the majority
@Declan McKenna isn't the reason that SMT 1 never happens in the persona timeline that one of the kuzonoha's killed Thor (Masquerading as the US official that nuked the world) and prevented the end from happening? Because SMT 1 guy not getting a comp wouldn't have stopped most of what happened.
@Declan McKenna yet another reason for me to want to stab the Axiom to death with a kitchen knife.
It's the same with every persona game (i don't know about 1 and 2)
Wtf is this lore? I am confused af
@@Sola_nin SMT Lore is fucked, especially if you try to throw all the games into a timeline zelda style
"Leave it to Persona 3 to make even a dancing game sad somehow." LOL
Nah dude I won’t even lie... the ‘P3D Elizabeth Not P3 Elizabeth’ had me crying for a good 10 minutes there. I just wanna give her a hug now😭😭💔
Same. She’s so awesome
Poor gal :( she’s been through too much
Man if akechi had a palace it should have been a diner such a wasted opportunity
Pancake treasure. I’m glad they left it at just a big possibility. Akechi having a palace has a lot of effects on his character development if the thieves would have infiltrated it.
Also, morgana said persona users couldn't have palaces as they accepted their inner shadow. They could have played it off as him losing trust in himself or something, but it would conflict with quite a bit
@@addsomepoyoprotein6738 Third semester palace ruler
@@tgaming173 He was also god and could change reality itself, a regular persona user isn't
@@addsomepoyoprotein6738 Yeah it’s kinda a tough subject. Most people say Futaba made her palace collapse when she awakened but that could just be a change of heart. Definitely up for debate on whether having a persona makes a difference but I can see why it would
I just assume Jose was training to be a next velvet room attendant since every other attendant leaves the velvet room to an extent to learn of the real world and him being in mementos benefits him more since it's mementos. Igor just doesn't want to be alone in the velvet room and wants to chat with his attendants.
You know I'd agree if not for Marie in Persona 4 straight up saying that when the protag isn't in the room, Igor, Margret and her sit in complete silence. Igor does not move, does not blink, he probably doesn't even breathe. But most importantly he doesn't talk to her. That's why Marie is so eager to see the world, the person she's bunking with just creepily stares into space every spare second Yu isn't there
Around the time Royal released, there was also the theory/AU that Jose was supposed to Akechi's VR assistant, had he become the trrickster before Fake Igor took over
Idk about how much that fits the canon, but I think it's a cool AU.
The Yusuke one me feel attacked lol
As an artist, I think that's normal. Sometimes we just find a person that's very beautiful/handsome and try to draw them in different ways.
But it being on almost everything in the room?
@@jmonkey106 Yusuke is basically starving through p5 no wonder the only thing he has on his room is paintings
@@jmonkey106 I feel like it's less weird to have a character you know (being Ann) rather than arts of stranger girls you the player have never seen in-game
And lobsters?
@@sapomercador7257 damn
15:32 my theory is that the man in the fog is nyarlathotep watching the events of persona 4.
My theory is that ATLUS wrote Persona 4 as they went along and that's why it has so many plot threads that go nowhere.
@@jackflynn412 What other threads go nowhere, may I ask?
@@azureorpheus4293 The missing scarf from the textile shop that was a noose in Mayumi's dungeon. They make a huge deal about it being a clue but it goes nowhere.
@@jackflynn412 Game boy also a false lead, although handle better. It's a common practice in detective stories to have leads that goes nowhere. Investigation team were wrong about it.
Doesn't deny the possibility of changing main culprit mid-production, though...
Well, i always thought that the man in the fog was Namatame. Like... He don't know anything about TV world. The only thing he knew is if the person appear on the TV at the Midnight Channel, they will die and be hanged. So i guess that Namatame waited the fog, then went on the street to check if he's "saving" went well.
This a loooong video, definitely gonna watch it later.
Love these type of videos.
Hey... It's the guy! It's the guy!!
you probably will never see this but do you thing its possible that the phantom thieves might've indirectly save door-kun/minato/makoto?
I like the Jokers parents are Vincent and one of the Catherine's from Catherine theory.
Spoiler for Catherine Full Body: in demon Catherine true ending there's a picture of the couple and 4 kids. One of them a boy with black hair. Also wearing something similar to the P5 tracksuits. Some say that boy is Joker
Yeah but Ren Mama Mia is Japanese and Vincent is from America tho
@@SenhorKoringa unless one of the Catherines name is Mama mia and Vincent just takes their name
@@ci7210 yeah but Catherine and Katherine are Caucasian
@@SenhorKoringa true why this theory is in the bottom iceberg
I’m gonna be that one person that says Bayonetta is Joker’s mom😂
Ah man that Takaya being from the Velvet Room one makes sense too cuz he's the only non-robot in the game who can summon without an Evoker, which is a common schtick with Velvet Room attendants (not using the Summon gimmick the players use)
From what I know, it's mentioned in the game that it's possible to summon Personas without Evokers, it's just very hard.
Not mocking the theory, tho. Gun Jesus IS a bit suspicious.
Anyone can summon a Persona without an Evoker with enough training. All of the P1/P2 cast can do it, and Akihiko reveals he can do it too in Ultimax, and implies so can Mitsuru.
There are a couple things to keep in mind:
1. According to some Q&A that Atlus did, the sea of souls and subsequently Personas were born from living beings to protect themselves from Death, Nyx, when her body crashed into the earth
2. It's stated multiple times that Evokers were designed to force a fight-or-flight reaction on those with potential by reminding them that death is always near and unavoidable using plumes of dusk
3. The dark hour isn't some special alternative plane like the tv world or Mementos
When you connect the dots it's clear that Personas *can* be summoned by whoever has potential even in the real world, but to do so you have to accept death and it's inevitability to trigger one's soul defense mechanism: a Persona. Takaya, being the antithesis of P3's messages, believes that death is everywhere and you cannot escape it, being that the reason Strega lives in the moment, and he himself doesn't care if he dies
Major props for getting the Phantom Thief Hifumi trivia right. Way too many believe and repeat that Hifumi the character was going to be a Phantom Thief, so I'm glad someone did proper research.
It got annoying hearing people think Hifumi was gonna be a Phantom Thief on Reddit, went out of my way to debunk it lol
All the theories surrounding P3 just make me love it even more
Nice seeing you here!!!
Hahah yeah looking in hindsight I definitely gave P3 a LOT of representation on this, must’ve been by subconscious bias since it’s my fav game lol
@@HeavenlyM nah, p3 is definitely the game with things more loose than other games
P4 resolves everything within the game or spin offs,
P5 is most likely to start a saga around cognitions and guys like Maruki
So many P5 theories could be bad due to lack of info, like what’s going on with Jose,
Persona 3 is the best out of the, ehem, 3 persona games. With 5 being after and 4 being last :v
@@jeribertopower7611 but why? Why you feel that way?
Some extras:
- 9:54 Yukiko was also rumored to have once been the culprit.
- If I recall correctly, dataminers found Sho labeled as the P5 MC in Ultimax's data. People genuinely thought he return as the protagonist of Persona 5. It might have just been a ruse though.
- I don't know if this is super surprising, but the P1 and P2 cast are still out there. The Kirijo group branched out from the Nanjo group, and Katsuya is interviewed on a TV in Persona 5. They're still there and the P1 and EP cast still have their Personas.
By extension, since IIRC a lot more people than just the main characters have Personas in those games, there's probably just random Persona users running around in the background of P3-5.
- SMT if... is Persona canon and Devil Summoners exist in Persona.
Persona seems like SMT, but if the fates of ruin or dark fogs rolling in were prevented before they could happen and thus, saving the world and preventing the events of SMT from happening
The "Man in the Fog" could have been Sho Minazuki. It's explained that he watched the Investigation Team solve the murders, perhaps he was aware that people died when they were thrown into the TVs and became disappointed when they weren't turning up....... Maybe it was instead Mitsuo?
Someone had made a list of shows that were popular with the mainstream that would eventually end up as victims of the midnight channel and what finally pushed the Investigation Team in the right direction. I don't believe it was ever mentioned who made that list, but its interesting why someone would keep making that list if nothing ever truly happened after Saki's death.
Actually, there's unused clips in Persona 4's files being voiced versions of the man in the fog scenes, which do confirm that the man in the fog is Adachi.
That Makoto remembers Persona Q story is crazy interesting. To know that not only was he fighting to save the world, but for other Persona users who would come afterwards.
I could honestly tie in the P3D Elizabeth into the theory as well, just to add suspense for Makoto
21:09 This part in particular really shows how important this battle was to Makoto. It explains why he would go so far as to sacrifice himself and become the seal that holds Nyx back.
*”This future can form from you alone, but only if your willing to make it your own.”*
Going back to the pantheon theory, I can just imagine Izanami going to where ever the hell gods go to meet up and shit goes like this:
Izanami: FUCKING HATE THOSE LITTLE SHITS
Yaldabaoth: I can't believe you lost to a couple of teens
Izanami: I WOULD LOVE TO SEE YOU TRY
Yaldabaoth: Ight bet
*Like 5-6 years later*
Yaldabaoth: I FUCKING HATE THOSE LITTLE SHITS
Izanami: I cAnT beLiEvE yOu lOSt tO a cOuPle oF TeEnS
Huge missed opportunity, a persona iceberg, but the blocks don't look like the blocks of Tartarus
Mementos would be a better fit I guess
@@Diego35HD true, Tartarus and Mementos are basically the same but in opposite directions
@@theghostofjeffgoldblumdail9613 Yup, the concept does work for both
@@theghostofjeffgoldblumdail9613 what if they're distantly connected, mementos most likely splits off from just one city so it would make sense if there was a way to get to mementos from tartarus
@@nerosoul2506 that's not possible, the Dark Hour is gone and it took Tartarus with it, 7 years prior to P5, they're the product of different deities and if they were somehow connected, Mementos and probably the entire Metaverse would've disappeared a long time ago, and Shibuya and Port Island are really far away from each other and and you can't just teleport to Mementos from anywhere since the thieves have to actually be in the subway when they activate the nav for it to work
I like the theory that all the "Gods" you fight in the later games are actually fragments of Nyarlathotep and the Velvet Room Attendents are fragments of Philemon. It kind of links them all together.
After playing Persona 2 it really makes sense because every modern Persona game feels like a piece of Persona 2 themes.
Persona 3 - unconscious desire to end the world, moving on after death
Persona 4 - accepting yourself, shadows, serial killer
Persona 5 - unconscious desire to have someone who will achieve everything for you, Yaldabaoth, rival-friend Akechi
Honestly, after Persona 2 that had massive range of themes, themes of P3-5 feels... Somewhat shallow. Ok, I still love themes of P3 and P5R, but they are not as good as p2
My head canon is that "the man in the fog" is actually sho minazuki from persona 4 arena ultimax
In that game it says that sho was in inaba when the murder case was going on and he enjoy watching how the murder case plays out
But then why would he get angry when the kidnapped victims weren’t killed if he was just enjoying the murder case play out?
@@edgelessspace7180 He could've enjoyed watching the case play out because he felt frustrated that nobody ever died, and continued watching in hopes that someone eventually would. Kind of a stretch, but then again a lot of these theories are just big brain exercises.
Haru being a traitor isn't THAT far-fetched to be honest... She even says she has some doubts about the Phantom Thieves after her dad died... But Akechi does basically admit to murdering him in Shido's palace, which definitely cleared any doubts she might've kept around.
But before that, who knows what she did or didn't do...
Not to mention the backstory behind her Persona is that of a double-crosser. It wouldn’t be that out of left field.
That honestly could've been a cool red herring to distract from Akechi, especially with the fake calling card for Kobayakawa.
The *Makoto remembers Q* theory makes my heart swell, knowing his sacrifice in the end with Nyx. Not only was he fighting to save the world, but for the battles to come.
Link that with the *P3D Elizabeth isn’t P3 Elizabeth* makes their story even more sad. The silent secret between them, and his sacrifice in the final battle, motivated her to bring him back.
God damn Persona 3 has *LAYERS.*
About the last one, I think the case just is that there are multiple Velvet Rooms, one for each timeline, which do not share the attendants. Maybe they share the same Igor, who knows, but I'd say the Theodore in P3P and Theodore in P4AU are not the same person. I don't remember there being a time where it has been claimed that each timeline has the same Velvet Room, just that Igor is aware of the existance of the other timelines.
Damn, the persona fanbase isn't just cringe and elitism.
But seriously, good work. No stupid jokes. No bullshit.
Fandom went from "nobody" to nightmare thanks to Smash.
There aren't enough series veterans in general, let alone ones that are also influencers, so there's nothing keeping casual toxicity and misinformation in check.
even if we have a pretty chill side, the smt/persona community will continue to have some toxicity. Lot of people blame smash even though it was pretty popular when p5 first released.
@@MoguMogu818 Smash wasn't the only cause, that much I'll give you, but it was the largest one by far.
Heck, if the Twitter portbeggars are anything to go by, Royal became the viral sensation that it was when it came out because of Smash.
(Mind you, I'm not against Royal on Switch, just wish people weren't so obnoxious about it. They have tons of Megaten games at their disposal that they haven't even touched)
@@SonnyFRST yea that #breakfreepersona trend was annoying as shit and really just pissed off everyone. It got Atlus jp to shut down its survey because of it. I'm not against it either but damn do some of them act dumb when it comes to ports. It only grew a bit more or less toxic with p4g coming to pc, and not royal to switch.
@@MoguMogu818 its not like persona has been a playstation exclusive for its entire 20 year history or anything, with the exception of Q and the P4G port... lol. It's like asking for Ratchet and Clank on switch
Since I'm a huge persona 2 fan, I wanted to mention a few obscure things that were left out of the list
The anime- Okay this should be more near the top since I think a lot of people know about this, but there was a cancelled persona 2 anime trailer at one point that can easily be accessed by just looking it up. It's really ashamed that nothing was done with it
The P2 mangas/novels- Yes the P2 manga is pretty well known, but there is another one with a completely new protagonist with new people entirely, kinda like Trinity soul. The novels are centered around Ana, if I'm not mistaken, and give her own perspective on things through... I think it was the eternal punishment timeline?
Tatsuya's scenario- this should be more well known but apparently it's not. It's a Japanese exclusive side story involving Tatsuya's side of eternal punishment. This is in the PSP version, so it can't be played in English, however it is translated online and it's an interesting read
P2 world book- basically it's a guide book that's all in Japanese that has recently been translated. It gives a lot more information about the main characters that wasn't said about them in the games. Oddly enough, Tatsuya has a different birthday in the world book than the birthday he has in eternal punishment that everyone got familiar with
one of the dialogues of Elizabeth from P3D is: "Look who is leaving the door" or something like that.., refering to Makoto.
One specific Persona 5 mechanic that basicly no one ever experience because of how precise you have to be with your confidant answers, is the fact that Joker can be rejected when they confess to a love interest!
After having played both versions for over 1000 hours each, i experienced during a "do as little as possible" run that if you don't choose at least one of a few specific triggers during a confidant, you can try to romance the character like normal, but they will instead just reject you, or at least not take you seriously, locking you out of their romance entirely!
Chihaya for instance have a few instances at rank 6 and 8 where she kinda prods Joker for any sort of interest in her, and if you answer as wrongly as possible, which you would never do in a serious playthrough as it hurts your ability to rank her up, but if you decide to do it but then suddenly shows an interest in her during her cutoff scene at rank 9, she will think you were sent by her parents to keep an eye on her, and Joker will comment to himself "I've been rejected"...
It's such a weird thing that they put in scenes for players who would need to activly sabotage themselves in this way to see them, but still try for the romance!
Is it bad that this happened on my first playthrough with takemi
@@Downval Kinda depends on what your goal was with the playthrough i guess.
If you wanted to maximize everything, while also romancing Takemi, but somehow still managed to get everything wrong enough to be rejected, i would say it's impressivly terrible choices you must have made, while thinking they were correct! But if you just tried to be sassy Joker like many people i know, who simply HAVE to go with the weirdest and funniest dialogue choices every time, i CAN see this happen organicly in rare cases...
It's kinda the same story as getting everyone killed in Mass Effect 2 without trying to, where having a few or even most of your crew die is very possible, but actually managing to kill everyone "by accident" is so rare and hard to do, that it's difficult to believe someone could get that outcome without some serious planning, or at least a fundamental lack of understanding of how the game works...
@@skynet0912 yeah ur probably right on the jokey ones but its such a shame cause she was my favourite and shes the only one i failed with
You could have added a "Nyx created the Collective Uncounciouss" in there.
On the Persona 3 Club Book, there is a Q&A section where characters such as Ikutsuki and Aigis break the fourth wall to explain some things about the Persona 3 plot and the Persona universe as a whole. According to them, Nyx was a being known as Starkiller, a incredibly huge and immensely powerful creature that wandered the universe consuming planets. Upon reaching Earth millions of years ago, she crashlanded and her body would result in the moon while her psyche remained on Earth. This magical psyche was harmful to the organic life on the planet so the Collective Uncounciouss was created in order to protect the life that existed. This would also result in humans evolving into sapience to better repress Nyx's pysche. Shadows are the remains of Nyx's pysche, constantly wanting to be reunited with her, however they have also an essencial part of humankind (and thus when someone's shadow is killed, they just collapse).
All the worlds and all the gods of the Persona universe come from Collective Uncounciouss, which in turn comes from Nyx. She is the source of all magic in the Persona universe.
Except that doesn't match up with the lore? Because Persona comes from an alternate timeline that Raido Kuzunoha made by traveling back in time to stop the end of the end of the world that happened towards the end of the first Shin Megami Tensei. Hell, people were only given the power of Persona by Philemon (the master of the collective unconscious), because the demon Nyarlathotep (not a being related to the collective unconscious) proposed an experiment to see if humanity would become enlightened, or destroy itself completely.
This means that gods, demons, and magic are all unrelated to the collective unconscious.
@@elk3407 It could be that, yes. Persona lore is often times convoluted and contradictory. Regardless of what you think though, "Nyx created the Collective Uncounciouss and gods and demons come from it" is what is explicitly stated on the Persona 3 Club Book.
@@FeCyrineu Albeit Elizabeth herself seems to retcon part of this mentioning that the Collective Unconcious has been around way longer even before Nyx's arrival to Earth to expedite humanity's evolution according to Elizabeth's story in Persona 4 Arena. I suppose the CI became "active" just to suppress the deathly waves? It's an odd concept.
You probably know this one:
Rise was originally not planned to be an Idol , she was going to be a female delicuent. I guess that Rise was going to share the Kanji Arc
Actually didn’t know that one, that’s kinda interesting
LESBIAN RISE
LESBIAN RISE
Given that her original design also resembles Ai to an extent (I always felt she and Saki looked a little similar) I wonder if this could imply that Ai was based on this earlier plan for Rise.
@@HeavenlyM Sorry for a bit of a necro, but to further explain. Rise was originally Ai Ebihara's character. When Atlus decided they needed more characters they added Kanji and Naoto as the hooligan and boy detective trope. They then thought adding an idol trope character would be funny and the new Rise was created.
That original design looked so great. I prefer it to the idol design but can't be helped 🤷
22:00 Petition to rename butterfly effects among parallel universes to "Philemon effect".
YES
This video gave me a theory for what happens in the FeMC version of the Answer, what if in the FeMC timeline Shinji gets the wild card abilities instead since he was the main thing that changed in that timeline
I think it’s actually possible people lose their Persona’s with age. Which could be why everyone Igor has sought out has been around the same age. Plus, at the end of P4, Igor talks about how it will be the last time they will see each other, and the last time he will be allowed in the velvet room. Because of the dancing and arena ultimax games, we know that they don’t lose their personas then and there, but, maybe when they’re in their 30’s or 40’s the ability goes away. The persona games also make it a point to show that personas are malleable. They can grow and evolve as the user grows. So if one was to regress, surely the persona could regress as well, and if the user gets really down, vanish entirely. But that is not to say it is gone forever, if they face themselves once again, they could regain their persona, and maybe it would even be different this time, because the struggles the user was dealing with could be different.
@Declan McKenna oh thats awesome, i haven't played 1 and 2 yet so I didn't know that, thanks for the info! I agree that personas don't have to vanish with age, but was more saying that it makes sense as to why they would. That aging is more correlation than causation for losing a persona, and that personas can in fact be lost. and in the same vain, they can be kept with age as well
Zenkichi awakens to one as an adult we need a persona game with actual adults or at least a few older characters
@@maccamachine”…we need a persona game with actual adults or at least a few older characters”
*Persona 2 Eternal Punishment has entered the chat*
@@oriongear2499 a game from like 20 years ago ooooo wow…. What I said still stands
I just told Junpei to give Chidori some space yesterday. Oops.
Rippppppp
F
You’re theory of a Persona pantheon is actually somewhat confirmed in the psp version of Eternal Punishment. In there is a new area you can go to where basically all Personas live and come from. While in there you can actually find Izanami and Nyx.
You Know I Think Elizabeth is trying to save both Makoto And Kotone From the seal of Nyx, because both Kotone and Elizabeth both in the P3P cd drama the female version
The "FeMC Timeline Doomed" theory killed me emotionally; God, I almost cried. The thought of FeMC's world being destroyed because of Erebus and the fall scares me to no end, so hopefully her timeline is actually fine...
Considering we never got a new FeMC after P3, I think it's very possible the FeMC timeline most likely stops after the events of P3
I’m so, SO glad you talked about “Elizabeth and Mementos.” I thought I was the only one who believes that saving Minato/Makoto’s soul from the seal is actually possible. A personal theory of mine is that a cognitive version of his soul (or 1/2 of his actual soul) is used as part of the seal, and the rest of his soul is in Heaven (I’m a Christian, so this is just me thinking in a religious aspect). Not to mention that Makoto’s final persona is “Messiah” is translated to the word “Christ” and his Persona is the “Holy Spirit” of the Trinity, God in three forms: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It’s real that God conquers death, and since Messiah is your final persona you acquire (or I should at least hope you did so throughout your gameplay) Makoto’s spirit has already been saved, and a cognition of his soul lives on within his physical body through the rest of the game once you obtain Messiah.
God exists in this series, but after life is a bit different, it's a bit hard to pin down exactly what kind of afterlife exists in the series but we know Charon still ferries the dead to the afterlife and most protagonists that have died go to some sort of paradise (though this might be because they are a reincarnation of Adam). Hell also exists, as the player character of the first devil summoner can attest to, though what decides where you go is still a mystery to me.)
Though YHVH in MegaTen is a complete power hungry dictator, so I would hope P3 protag didn't become another disposable pawn for his plans, or else I would have to kill him in my Neutral and Chaos playthroughs. Law route is always one of the worst, btw.
Late comment on my part, but we factually know, based off all available evidence, that Makoto can't truly be 'saved'. The entire point is to prevent Erebus from reaching Nyx via the Sea of Souls, and Erebus, like all of the gods in the series, can't actually be permanently killed bar killing all of humanity or something similar. The only way to stop him would be either doing that, or somehow preventing all of humanity from wishing sub consciously for death. Which is impossible, obviously, because you would have to end human suffering and cause a utopia or some shit. Which...well, I suppose I should re-word; Its impossible unless you do some Maruki-style shit, which has its own slight (read; gigantic) problems.
Your deep in the iceberg if you've played P2-P1
We all know that Persona 3 is the first Persona game
Kinda sad that i didnt see anything from P1
The bottom of the iceberg is the fat Makoto rule 34. It gives me nightmares.
“But why, why would you do that?”
i've seen VERY fat mitsuru too
except it's not a porn
The what...
@@jamiewaswrong yes.
@@yhjidid7375 my fate in humanity has vanished
23:16 while playing p3d recently, I thought that theory was pretty apparent. Not only does the game of course take place post-P5 (implying that’s been awhile after P4AU for everyone, not just the phantom thieves), despite the velvet room not being linked to time as we now. But the idea that there’s P4AU songs, outfits, etc. Probably this is due to Elizabeth knowing Labrys and Sho to then bring them to the velvet club to dance, despite SEES not meeting them yet (or Makoto who just didn’t get to even do that).
Or maybe I’m thinking too much into DLCs haha
Unfortunately, i've found that today is actually imposssible to play the Chie flash game because of the flash death... Holy God i wanna die.
NOT ADOBE FLASH AND nani Chie game 👁👄👁
I hadn't got to this point in the video when I first read this comment. What the actual f...
Yo 30 minutes of HeavenlyM don't mind if I do
The biggest things debunking Trinity Soul’s canonical status is Akihiko still being a persona user in Persona Arena, and Adachi and Zenkichi both being fairly old while still having Personas
I just read that first chapter of shadow cry that you mentioned, and now i absolutely want more. Atlus should just officially translate these novels for the west, that's some easy money right there
I was though the person on the fog was supposed to be Namatame, but now that I think about it, it doesn't make sense since Namatame's goal was for the victims to get saved by the Investigation Team.
It really is a big plothole, huh?
I thought the same thing!
I think it might be linked to the thing about Dojima being the killer, it would fit with his short temper
Wait till you find out there's an unused voice clip of the person saying "Again..." buried in the files of P4
It's supposedly Adachi, which confuses me even more 😭
@@niar1726 yeah considering the killer was changed halfway through development they might’ve left this aspect in the game and didn’t really change it
Maybe since this is persona we’re talking about it’s the subconscious desire of the people of inaba wanting to see more dead bodies in order to create interest in their small town.
Now THIS is quality content, when you know you'll need something to drink and relax cuz you're in for a ride of a video. Thanks for doing this bro, I know it takes a crazy amount of time you could've been doing something else. Great vid.
Awh thank you! Glad you enjoyed! 😊
A banger video on birthday let’s go!
Happy Birthday!!! 🥳🥳🥳
Happy Birthday!
Happy birthday!
Happy birthday!
Thank you all !
This was super informative and interesting-I hadn’t heard of most of these before, so it was a lot of fun getting to hear the different theories. I also really appreciated the closed captions.
I hadn't really heard of a big majority of these so it was really fun learning
26:00 thats like SMT, you know the series Persona is a spin off of
I literally had that in the script at one point but I removed it and tbh idk why
@@HeavenlyM Ok i see its just something i thought of while watching
What if Lisa Silverman and Ann Takamaki are related? Like Lisa is Ann’s mom or something? Lisa is half American and Ann is a quarter American and they both got blue eyes and light blonde/blonde-ish hair.
I’ve never heard this one before but I like it & now am gonna consider this in my headcanon lol
my personal belief is that Eikichi and Yuuki are related. similar last names and hair color are all I've got, though.
They be an awesome mom daughter but the timeline conflicts since Ann was born 1999 and P2 too place 1999/2000.
Same with my own Jun is Yusuke father theory
@@ci7210 wait....when does Persona 5 take place again?
@@christopherbravo1813 2016.
P3 never fails to make me cry, even thinking about it makes me tear up. Poor Makoto and Chidori
I didn’t need to live knowing there’s an official Sprite of chie naked ... 💀💀💀
Altus is something alright 😬
God, fucking reminds of that guy who made that gamefaqs forum asking if you could romance nanako
@@jmonkey106 Reminds me of people on the Fire Emblem community having the dragon lolis as their main waifu.
I’m surprised that Yosukes eye glitch/Easter egg wasn’t mentioned
What’s the Yosuke eye glitch?
@@l.7433 the Yosukes eye glitch is a weird eye that appeared on Yosukes persona stat screen in the original version of p4. The original theory was that it appeared when you maxed out his social link on his birthday. There’s a video in the series pop fiction on RUclips that investigated and talked to a contact who worked on the game saying that the eye was not an intentional secret. They labeled the eye as a glitch since it didn’t return in persona 4 golden
@@thephantombroadcast3050 Ah, okay. Thanks for explaining!
@@thephantombroadcast3050 ahh, i had that one. I thought my game was broken or something lol
Stephen from Mainline SMT has yellow eyes like Velvet Room attendants and is similar in his nature to them. The Velvet Room is a part of the Expanse.
If I recall correctly, there was plans to add both Dojima and Nanako as playable characters in arena but got scrapped as the devs were unsure of what to do with them.
The way i heard it, dojima was supposed to be a joke character with nanako acting as his "persona"
I love Persona 2 and I’m glad it was at least referenced on the iceburg
I’ve got one: in Joker’s cell in the Velvet Room, there’s a toilet.
If Joker poops himself in the dream- does that mean that he poops himself irl? Interesting.
Wake up, Joker, you shit yourself
i just found your channel the other day and i loved all of your videos and glad i got back from school to see this. much love HeavenlyM i think your content is genuinely amazing
Thank you so much, so kind! Glad you liked them 😊
Adding to the last theory: I think the reason why Theodore doesn't leave the Velvet Room like Elizabeth does is because of their different social link 10's.
In Elizabeth's 10th social link, it's implied that she and MC spent an intimate moment together in his bedroom. But in Theodore's 10th social link, he backs off and says that a human and a Velvet Room attendant shouldn't be that close to each other, and everytime you try to talk to him after that he pleads you not to do so.
Theodore is supposed to be an exact copy of Elizabeth, just as a guy. So either he's not a perfect copy of her, or the fact that he's a guy, and a gentleman, made him way more cautious of doing anything to a girl, as opposed to a girl(Elizabeth) doing anything with a guy(MC).
So basically, Theodore and FeMC not getting laid doomed their timeline.
IS there more paintings of Ann in Yusuke's room or is that it shown in the vid? cause from an artist's view. it looks like yusuke has concept sketches of his finalized ann painting that he has in his room. meaning all this time he has been trying to perfect his vision of ann's beauty. also for the ann painting that looks decent and has scratched out with an x is pretty ironic because it's actually not that bad and i'm guessing the pun here is that yusuke's an eccentric artist so he wouldn't settle for less.
idk thats how i saw it.
Akihiko: “I’ve been waiting for this!”
15:32
i had actually been thinking about this myself and im certain its a seperate entity that izanami also shook hands with.
when you confront izanagi she always refers to the people she shook hands with as three or names them directly, but at one point she says "a handful of strangers" instead, which is probably just a coincidence but it's fun to think
The only issue with Jose being from the Velvet Room is that all Velvet Room characters (except Philemon) are named after Frankenstein, either the original novel or a film adaptation. The only connection I can make between "Jose" and Frankenstein is that Cuba artist Jose Mors wrote a Frankenstein Rock Opera, which I suppose could work, but it's certainly a departure from the usual sources (films and the novel) when there are still unused male names left.
Or alternatively, to keep with the Frankenstein theme, we could get Victor from the Devil Summoner series to replace Igor as a fun nod to an older MegaTen series.
I've actually been waiting on a persona iceberg
this must have taken FOREVER to make, nice job! :D
Hahaha yes, and thank you! 😊
There's a small theory that Yukiko was supposed to be the killer. Some of the early dialogue revolving around the Amagi Inn and her mother sounded suspicious, and Yukiko does occasionally show bits of sadism, though far less than Haru or Mitsuru. Moreover, the concept art for Yukiko painted her as a more cold and distant figure, slightly different from the more aloof Yukiko whom you meet at the beginning.
Happy New Year🎉. Anyone who knows E.S is a friend to me :-)
I’ve been looking for a persona iceberg for a while and this was perfect
This is an insanely informative and entertaining video. I didn't even know most of these theories and content existed
The Elizabeth/Mementos theory would be a good plot for Persona 5 Arena lol
We can only hope
Regarding the Pantheon theory, it's at least somewhat canon when looking at the Law vs. Chaos theming throughout the greater whole of MegaTen, specifically mainline SMT. It's literally two different forces of Demons (which are confirmed to be the same as Shadows thanks to P5) working together to achieve a certain goal, usually involving a recreation of the world to fit the image of their leader. (YHVH for Law, Lucifer for Chaos.)
Watching this attentively all the way through the end paid off when the last scene with Mitsuru showed up. Nice 👌
I had just beat Royal for the first time like a month ago so my knowledge of persona is pretty weak lmao hearing all of these theories is kinda crazy ngl
This iceberg video is miles better compared to others, in depth theories and explanations for each title and not face value information nobody cares about. Good job my man this one was really enjoyable
It would be very interesting to see Elizabeth get the P5 gang to help her. Although, if Atlus did that, they'd need to obviously get the P4 and P3 gangs, too. Although, I don't think that would happen
Was waiting for a quality Persona Iceberg Video but you making it is better than I expected.
hm, was expecting yosukes un-used social link voice lines to show up but this was still a really good video. ive been into persona for some time now but never looked into theories so i kind of understand that side of the fandom now.
10:54
Ok this is my mini theory with little evidence but I think Shadow Teddie is connected to "The man in the fog" since Shadow Teddie has two Dialologues where he mentions the fog (one in Persona 4 & one in Persona 4 Arena Ultimax)
-"The truth is unattainable ... It will always be shrouded in fog."
-"All that needs to exist is the end that you desire. Just shroud everything in fog again..."
The mysterious unused model found in Persona 5 is named Test-Size. Lots of people believe that Test-Size was the original protagonist to Persona 5 or Ren’s female counterpart as Minako is to Makoto. Her model poses exactly like like Ren’s original render from P5, (legs apart stance, left arm to the side and holding the leg of glasses). She also appears in two pieces of art and her model can be found in the game’s files. You can even spawn her in if you’d like. I would like to believe that Test-Size was another Phantom, I took it upon myself to flesh her out for shits and giggles. I think she’s neat and would have been a wonderful addition.
I'd like to think that the man in the fog is sho minazuki, considering he loved death and gets pissed easily. Also, sho has followed the investigation team from the very beginning, but with little encounters as possible. This is why we never see, nor would he follow them in attempting to save people, which is why he'd wait for a foggy day to happen, since he can't go in the tv himself.
i know a theory that a large majority of persona fans actually hate each other and can never agree on anything
clearly, this video disproves that :)
I loved the video, finally found a place where i can hear things that i have been discovered by myself and even learn. Long life to Persona.
for the pantheon theory i think i can give you an explanation. Persona probably follow the same chaos/law/neutral allayment from megaten, as deity like izanami and nyx seems to follow the same beliefs they have in other megaten games.
I love how this game draws heavy inspo from Edgar Allen Poe, and Carl jung. Jung is pretty obvious but with Poe the song for p5 aka the lounging song when ur in the cafe references a poem by him and the velvet room is also a reference too.
Edgar wrote about the stages of death and the velvet room being the last place.
Thought it was a cool little thing to mention too
1:23 holy crap I'm just now seeing it... Hifumi looks so much more like Sae's younger sister than Makoto ever did!!!
I feel like the theory of a time warp for every Persona game kinda goes against the idea of choosing what ending you’d want to get.
Man! That was so interesting!
Spoilers from the video:
Specially the Elizabeth not being P3 Elizabeth on P3D! I also believe that Jose is a creation of Elizabeth, iirc he does mention something about his master when you get all the achievements that does hint that is Elizabeth.
27:46 I've seen it in a number of rather casual exchanges that a lot of people have the headcanon that Elizabeth is made of sterner stuff than Theodore, and that she is still the one who goes out on a journey for FeMC, but instead of it being due to her own feelings, it's too meme her brother's broken heart.
Once or twice I've seen the further detail that Theodore's memories are locked and he's given less complicated tasks as well because all his growth as an Attendant is tied in with his memories of FeMC, so he's just not good enough to do more difficult tasks without those memories, and he'd be unable to work at all with those memories.