before leaving a dislike, I hope this sparks a genuine conversation. Did my best in this video to really talk out my genuine thoughts but my naive positivity towards having both inputs work! Timestamps: 00:00 Mouse & Keyboard Dead On Apex Legends? 00:47 Important Things Needed For Controller Players 01:30 Majority Are Currently On Controller 01:56 Shift In Pro Meta For Input Decision 02:31 Aim Assist Not Exactly The Problem 02:56 Skewing Of Data 04:04 Time Investment To Net Results 07:58 Problem Of Mouse & Keyboard 08:29 Reality 09:02 Comparing Of Other FPS Games 09:49 Closing Question To The Community 11:22 Apex Legends Recent Balancing Positives
If apex mnk were dead a 3 mnk team wouldn't have won algs .also I absolutely love your takes ❤️ I play both inputs and I think aim assist should be brought down to 0.3 and movement should be allowed on controller
@@JayGamesAndReacts the issue with aim assist is that when someone is too used having bot winning fights for them they start to disregard other things like game sense, map movement and so on. Saw this issue with my friends. Apex is not just about shooting, which is why many controller players still hard stuck gold. It's mostly on them if you ask me.
I actually disagree with the notion that this is a complex issue that needs closer evaluation before they change something. I am sure you've seen the data being posted onto the subreddit showing the ridiculous data discrepancies between the inputs. I think what also skews this argument is that the worst of the worst players are also likely on controller (AKA your console 9-5 dad who plays a few hours after work), so a big AA/controller nerf would just turn off a huge % of the playerbase. I think the MNK playerbase is passionate about this because we LOVE this game, but if we use our stats as an example of "fun" in this game, I think its pretty universal that the experienced players on MNK are having a terrible time (K/D, avg damage, win %) are all drastically lower as you start to get faced with the 80k kill controller players who can foreal just braindead their way through their playsesh while I am sweating over the mousepad developing carpal tunnel b/c the level of aim training/shape you need to be in to stay relevant on MNK is very disproportionate.
@benmccormick4386 it's definitely insane how much more work you gotta put in to be a great mnk player let alone one who can hang with decent controller players .controller has a lower skill gap vs mnk .meaning controller is easy to master vs mnk .I love both inputs but I'm more consistent on controller and that's for many reasons
@@benmccormick4386 Years of alienating the mnk base has led to the situation where any change to aim assist would upset the coach potatoes. IMO bringing the MNK players back would be a nice tradeoff
The removal of visual clutter would be a great first step. In season 0 you could use a console command to remove muzzle flashes and it made aiming so much more consistent since you could actually see what you were shooting at. I think it would also be interesting to see aim assist evolve a bit. Possibly its strength reduces when the gun is actively being fired, so the AA would be more useful to acquire a target but require more user input to stay on target when shooting. But as an MNK player I could never see myself switching over to controller unless it was for a health/mobility reason. I don't care how many advantages it can provide I simply find MNK more engaging and satisfying way to play FPS.
Visual clutter is possibly the worst. Most of the time we don't aim "at a target" but in the general direction of a target. It'd be a massive MnK buff if they actually did something about it. God forbid if there is a Caustic stink, Bang/Gibby ults, Fuse, thermites...AA locks on you in such scenarios while you spray and pray in hopes to land a bullet which almost never ends in your favor.
I have almost 3,000 hours on MnK, and I just swapped to controller and have clocked in maybe a couple hundred hours. MnK is way more fun and rewarding to learn, but I've had serious, consistent, and significantly positive results since switching to controller. I dropped my first 20 bomb game on controller this past week and have been having a way easier time winning team fights with my ranked squad. All my friends play on MnK, but they all are anchor/support type players. I was like them on MnK. Since switching to controller, I've been way more aggressive, and it's led to us winning more team fights and games. I will say that I deal significantly less damage than I used to while on MnK and compared to my friends who are still on MnK because they use long-range weapons effectively. I am getting way more kills, though because I realize that most fights end from close range. I miss MnK often and will swap back on occasion when playing Mixtape or pubs, but I'm staying on controller for ranked or any tournaments. Side note: I was inspired to make the switch after seeing Lou (from Complexity) and Albraleile (formerly of TSM, C9, Furia) switch over to controller and find success. 2nd side note: I will sometimes swap inputs mid-match to loot or hit a sick kraber shot on someone from far away. I also prefer playing certain legends on MnK like Crypto, Newcastle, Wattson
For real. Contoller to me is the key to fixing my inconsistent aim. Everything else is always there but my aim can go from impeccable and I'm hitting 2500-3000+DMG games to barely being able to hit half an R9 clip and breaking a shield. Sometimes it's not even something physical ruining my aim consistency sometimes it can be a mental block but the ability to have a tool that takes that negative effect away and mitigate that mental block is something that can only be done with a roller if that makes sense? It's 2am so I'm legit just typing off the dome
Consistency is king. I just made the switch 2 days ago and knowing fights usually end in close quarters the AA helps a lot. This is one thing I missed about roller since I used to play a lot of cod from 2009-2013 and was a pub stomper is that I have that same confidence when shoving a team. I know I’ll hit basically all my shots and get one down and nearly if not out right down 2 people. Seeing pros who used to be mnk switch and find success is what gave me that push. My buddy and I discussed that we need a roller on our teams to help with our 3v3s and I volunteered because I grinded mmos like WoW and only really grinded fps on mnk for a short period on csgo to get SMFC rank, while my buddy grinded like hell on tactical shooters like csgo(global elite) and valorant(immortal).
I feel like the best solution to this problem is that having lobbies according to your inputs. Game detecting your input and putting you in accordingly. Controller lobbies only and MNK lobbies only. No crossplay lobbies at all.
will never happen unfortunately, even if apex got rereleased with better servers, no lag compensation for high ping players, input based matchmaking and the perfect anti cheat, the damage is already done, you don't see new players, you see the same dudes playing it
AA rotational needs delay atm it has 0ms reaction time which is inhumane and one of the reason why aa is so strong in close range. From there we could see if they should for example buff long range aa to make up for it. Movement tech is really not need for both inputs 98% of the time good position and shooting is way more important. Moving while looting should be available for both inputs. Apart from that I personally dont think controller belong in competitive shooters if they can only perform with aa. And they need aa to compete with mnk, controller are simply not an imput that is designed to play shooters. Unless they force everybody to use gyro aim and that only works with Xbox finally adds it to there controller.
I agree on the delay for sure, this impact most likely the pro players more than anything. I think movement tech should be allowed for both just to be fair. But AA at a distance would be a solid trade off. Solid points here though. Why through visual clutter its the most annoying.
Due to input limitations/delays, i wouldn't mind AA buff at longer range as a trade off for close range nerf. The things AA does in close range is just ridiculous. Funny thing is, in recent times i see many CONTROLLER players complain about Aim Assist, lol. I was even watching SooXFar stream recently, him and iTemp were malding. Guess its all laughs and giggles until MnK leaves/switches and you face players on "even field" after moving from Console to PC to avoid those even fields and have "shove" range advantage.
The way I've always looked at it is no matter what input you play if there is anything inside the game (in this case movement) it should be allowed regardless of input
@@JayGamesAndReacts Yeah, but it's not like they deliberately blocked movement on controller. Inputs just aren't designed to do the same things. I imagine it would take some significant dev time to make a functional tap strafe on controller, for example. It would be pretty janky, most likely. And we all know EA isn't allotting studios with resources for that. Gotta feed the corporate machine. Moving while looting could definitely be done, though. That should, in theory, be a pretty easy thing to change. But I've never seen their spaghetti code, so who knows.
I'm old as shit. The idea that "aim assist" is even a thing is ridiculous to me. I don't get why you would even play the game if you gotta have training wheels. MNK forever. Even if I get run over by the pathetic children who bumperbowl.
No joke, every controller player who uses "Tap Strafing" as an argument, is absolutely.. yea idk how not to be mean here tbh. Not being able to change direction mid air is a disadvantage, definetely, but does that really help a casual kbm player with winning gun fights ? I dont think so. If you know how to use your aim assist, its way stronger than movement techs, not being said that most of kbm players are not able to do as much movement as ( for example ) faide or lemonhead, those guys are only the top %. And the players who are able to throw out all diff kinds of movement techs, def put hundreds of hours in firing range. I mean when I get killed by a level 65 Pathfinder in Gold ranked and spectate him, and I see how he aims like a god.. like common, dont tell me thats fair. Im not saying controller players shouldnt have aim assist, its just way to strong in apex as you can see bc literally every pro switched to roller. My opinion.
I feel like as a MNK grinder you KNOW that this is an existential crisis facing the game which makes it straight up not fun to play on MNK anymore. How is it that I can call it with 100% accuracy when I die to roller/console? Something just doesn't feel right. Combined with the recent changes to matchmaking, its so demoralizing being a 3k hour player who doesn't stand a chance against controller players with a quarter of my play time/game knowledge. Anyone elses stats HALVED this season even though I'm technically the best I have ever been? Something stinks and I don't like it.
You took the words right out of my mouth. Ive been having the exact same experience but I only have like 1500 hours. I have to put in work to get consistent 150 sprays but I somehow get one clipped by a roller player who doesnt even put their gun away when theyre running. I also can guess with perfect accuracy as well because assisted aim looks different. Idk know if you agree with Dazs or not but there were some terrible takes. theres nothing fair about giving controller full mnk movement but leaving AA the same. All mnk gets is an option to remove visual clutter? Ive never felt like ive lost a gunfight because of that. People arent switching to roller in droves because controllers feel nice in their hands and it shouldnt matter if theyre the majority, skill should be rewarded regardless.
Yo Dazs im the dude that knew xarcotix we ran into eachother a few months ago. They never should have done the hipfire spread nerf. Thats what really sent controller over the edge over mnk in a lot of situations and also visual clutter.
i think a lot of people overlook something important to realize about apex aim assist. its the exact same aim assist as titanfall. and it worked in titanfall because the speed of the game is over 5x the speed of apex by default. and you can really master the movement in titanfall and youre doing 10-15x the speed of apex. so it needs to be ramped down for it to "belong" in apex.
Don't nerf rolles. Boost comfort of using M&K. Remove visual clutter, camera shake and cross hair screen movement. If you learn to read aim assist guiding things like fire, muzzle flashes and legend's abilities don't hold you back that much. On m&k you can have better control over your aim but when everything starts flashing and shaking your whole view there is nothing that can help you keep track of enemies and you're in disadvantage against rollers
40-60% aim assist and 0ms delay is way too strong. They need to make controller feel better overall to play, it's so clunky in Apex, then nerf aim assist. The best nerf would be to rotational aim assist. There's no reason players shouldn't even have to use their thumbs to one clip someone. Clips of streamers getting one clipped by a controller player not even using their thumb (solos shows kill cams and with those show how many players are being carried by aim assist) hurts the soul. I swapped to MNK from controller as I thought the same thing as most ignorant controller players. "They use their whole arm to aim." I thought it would be easy, it wasn't. Not at all. Being an MNK player means even putting in over 1000 hours still isn't enough to compete against aim assist. Meanwhile, 100 hours of controller can be enough to consistently beat MNK players in Apex.
@@animegopher I agree with you but realistically speaking apex is earning way too much money on console players and casual pc roller users. If they nerf rollers entry barrier for most of casual players will go up even higher. It make sense from game design perspective but it won't bring more money to respawn and ea. On the other hand boosting comfort of using M&K won't affect negatively most of paying players and may lead to more dedicated M&K players stick with Apex. Even though controller will still have advantage. I would love to see aim assist nerfed but I'm not seeing this happening any time soon
I remember someone once said controller players play on pc and complain about mnk yet they themselves don’t use an mnk. i still think about that to this day.
I switched to roller yesterday. I have over 2,000 hours on mnk, and I consider my mnk skill at close range fights to be quite good. But literally my first game of solos on roller was one of my most successful Fragment drops ever. I was shocked. Instead of needing to use clever, frantic evasion to stay alive at Monument and Streamer Building, I was able to simply 1 or 2 clip the enemies at close range. I realize now that better aim is wayyyy more important than better movement.
I just switched over to controller this season. I just couldn’t hang anymore. I’m not amazing at mouse and keyboard, but spent all my recent time playing video games on a mouse. Literally my first game I started playing better. The amount of one clips I get now is insane. The movement benefits of m&k aren’t enough anymore.
I highly doubt we're a majority even on PC. Watching streamers, playing the game myself, over 60% of every lobby is controller looting. Also, learning to utilize AA is not exclusive to Pros either, many are well aware of the concept "don't fight AA trying to aim on your own and overcompensate", its often just newbies who say "mine doesn't do that". If anything, Pros are the ones who don't just crutch AA in its strongest range but train all ranges unlike the average Andy you'd see in-game miss 5 mags past X range, you scale to end the encounter assuming its a bad player just to get aimbotted more or less. Those players have no idea how the firing range looks like and just hop in a match right away and shove everything relying on their precious input to do it all. As for MnK, when it comes to Apex, i've seen many recently talking about it - Mechanics. Many of the pros in Apex have incredibly mediocre mechanics even if it sounds offensive. Granted, we can't expect everyone to be Hollow but in other eSport titles you see much closer gaps. I know its not all mechanics but having bad aim/strafe and not even trying to improve is not a solution either. I've been watching ALGS past year and a half and often scratch my head as "how is that guy even a Pro?". The ones who impress are mostly Asians and Zero from DZ whom put the time in. I was watching DF Pite grinding #1 pred and that guy aim is horrific. I know i said its not all mechanics but you really can't get away with bad mechanics either especially at that level in lobbies filled with controller players (whether it is ALGS or Ranked) and complain you got 1 clipped after missing 2 mags on a stationary target more or less, there has to be some balance. Bad recoil control, bad mouse control, can't strafe/dodge whatsoever standing like a dummy. "Human error" is organic but its often not an error but rather skill issue. And we can even use all the off Wish/budget Faide's as an example. Cranking sensitivity to 15-25cm/360, supergliding everywhere but missing 80% their shots spazzing like crazy and shouting "cOnTrOLlER sHiTTeR" without even realizing how pointless their movement is in the given scenario and how awful their aim is, trying to copy a player playstyle and not even analyzing it. I'll glaze Faide a little but his aim is very solid for the pace he plays at, good strafes and his movement is smooth, precise and calculated 90% of the time, serving actual purpose such as dodging, escaping sticky situation etc rather than being just style point oriented getting you killed. And that also reflects in his viewer count despite having a personality of a paper towel, barely interacting with chat and his mods banning everyone for no reason.
As a previous T500 Overwatch players I was shocked to see some of the pro Apex MnK players aim too ngl. And like you said it isnt just all aim mechanics.. But jesus.
@@coreybroussard5264 the higher the rank the smaller that percentage gets. but you can still reach any rank with mnk if youre good enough, the issue is that you have an entire other layer of skill you have to perfect compared to roller players.
@@coreybroussard5264but they won't be enjoying it/are complaining about aim assist. I perfected my aim to the best of my ability. 5k hours on aim trainers. I picked up a controller again and beat my highest kill game. The only thing that keeps me from fully switching is the ability to control my crosshair movement. TAP strafe is just fun. Movement is just a generally higher skill ceiling.
It's the inability to be consistently top tier with my aim that is moving me away from the game once again. My game sense and everything else is always there no matter what unless I have a drink or something but my aim hinges on too many different variables that I need to be able to control all the time and if even 1 of them is not under control my aim goes out of the window. It's simply a gamble but contoller can pretty much make that leeway much bigger and thus my aim will be vastly more consistent in comparison too m&k. @@Phillipmamowfwifharts
the only thing we are asking for as mnk players is not nerf aim assist, but rather balance it by REMOVING ROTATIONAL AIM ASSIST. its that simple. mnk players have a reaction time of at best 200ms, so when tracking a strafing player, they cant hit shots as good as controller, while aim assist removes that time gap and instantly sticks your aim to strafing enemies. so removing rotational aim assist will allow mnk and roller to have the same reaction time while keeping aim assist.
I am a console player and I have wanted keyboard and mouse on the consoles for the longest time. I think K & M should be on everything like it is in COD and Fortnite and the finales and every other battle royal that's out there.
This is the actual solution right here, controller can become a full fledged input without the need for assistance anymore. Just look at the Splatoon pro scene, there's also a few creators who are gods with gyro on PC, like ihardscope or Japa
if they do that they need to give console mnk support and halve AA + remove rotational AA. Most people aren't just going to want to play if they got forced to swap this late into the game
Hmm.. i feel like if pro players are shifting inputs, there may very well be an issue. I personally play apex with mnk because this is my preferred input method. Although i play apex, i dont play with the aim to become like an incredible apex player at the expense of my overall base fps skill. I wont switch inputs, because mnk is the input method i fell in love with all those years ago, before apex. I remember literally preferring to play mnk over controller for basically everything aside from car games ofc.
I am a strange creature that used to be controller player on console and then I switched to pc. First on controller and for few months now on mnk. And what a blast is to start to master a little mnk. The game is less boring to me and i have to think differently in order to conter the strenghs of controller players. I wish aim assit was a little nerfed really just a little. Or that more players just do like me and try their best on mnk.
Controller modders, in my opinion, have fundamentally changed this conversation. If there weren't players modding their controllers, the game would be much healthier. Other than that. M&kB has mechanics that are inaccessible to controller players, because of this mechanical difference, is why controllers have the .20% more aim assist than KB&M. People are claiming that this .20% is unbeatable, compared to their KB&M AA. It's not like this. If you're losing to a controller player on KB&M, that player is most likely modding their controller inputs, and it's not their input method that is creating the superiority. It's the fact that they're running scripts on a controller, which make them unchallengable, on whatever input you're using, if you're not also cheating with mods on a controller. How about this: Ban the controller modders, then re-visit the topic of AA on controllers, then. You'll notice that KB&M players won't complain about losing to controller players anymore. Because they simply won't be losing to them as often. It's way easy to mod a controller with scripts, with zero consequences. Which is where, in my opinion, this whole conversation became way out of hand. Not very many people are willing to address this because they mod their controller too, and want to gas-light the entire community into having this very discussion, rather than solving the actual issue at hand. Which is the massive cheater infestation of controller modders. I wonder how this conversation would stand, if all of the community weren't forced to fight against controller modder cheaters. Then, and only then, can the controller input be seen as it actually is: An inferior input method, compared to KB&M. Ban those controller modder players, and or their capability to mod their controller inputs: then BAM, KB&M players would have a whole different dialog. I have a PC and both consoles. I've played competitive comp on all platforms. My last thoughts on the matter are that: If the ability to mod a controller wasn't available, this entire conversation would be flip flopped. The entire world would see just how overpowered these controller mods ACTUALLY ARE. Then, you'd all realize that, huh, wow, I guess the controller input method was actually just a regular input method. The only thing that was unfair was the scripts they were spamming on said controllers. If you put a KB&M player against a controller player of equal skill, whom isn't modding thier controller inputs with scripts: that's a fair fight, where both people have a fair chance. There are far too many variables to calculate who will win, if they're both playing fairly. However; if the controller player is modding their controller inputs, the victory goes to the controller modder 9/10. You see, we're not arguing which input method is superior, that's the agenda that these cheaters want you all to focus on. The real issue is that: the cat is out of the bag, everyone knows how to cheat on their controller without getting in trouble. Now, that's almost all you see, in every lobby available. In all skill levels, all game modes, everyone is modding their controller inputs to cheat, and feel like a pro. This is why this conversation is still going about input methods. Take a step back and think about what I've said. I hope you all come to the same logical conclusion, so that we can play the game fairly, and not direct our hatred towards those who choose specific input methods because they simply prefer those input methods. We should vindicate the reputation of all controller players, and showcase that they're not as OP as you think with standard AA. The only way to expose the truth about input methods: is to ban the use of 3rd party controller modder devices. That way: this massive cheater infestation would dial back some, and we can finally deduce that controllers THEMSELVES are not the problem. KB&M players are not the problem. People who are allowed to mod their controllers with scripts ARE THE PROBLEM.
I would agree that AA probably takes the blame for a lot of more shady stuff. If the enemy isn't rage-hacking, then most people don't think of cheats and just assume it's AA. But cheat software/hardware is so much more prevalent and complex.
Mate, there is no aim assist on M&KB. It's literally infinitely more aim assist. In fact an argument can be made for there being negative aim assist on K&M due to visual clutter/screen shake/aimpunch/recoil etc.
I genuinely don't understand why I have to play with people on a different input in the same platform (pc) and lobbies. Even as a person that grew up on CSGO and absolutely no console gaming, I was able to put a little more than 2 weeks on a cheap controller off of amazon and get 1 clips fairly easily in gold-plat lobbies. Controller 100% is way more consistent than MnK will ever be. The only reason I don't switch to controller is because I want to have fun and not move like a bot all the time. The other side of the controller problem is groups solely dedicated to creating controller configs for everything under the sun as if having a 0ms readjustment wasn't enough. Seperate the lobbies based on input. The only solution in my opinion.
If we want to see if theres any advantage, we need to calculate the average KD for M&K vs Controller. If we see that the average kd for the controller is higer, that means that for controller players its easier to get kill than for the average person using mouse and keyboard. We could measure anything else like accuracy which is another important data set
Just putting my two cents but you have to remember in the early days of Apex that the PK and the Mastiff were incredibly strong along with the wingman. You could also put a 6x on the scout so it was a way different game. I've played both and my issue is that I've put maybe a 10th of the time on controller then I have on MnK, but I can beam harder on a roller. With the stats to back it up Aim Assist is just far too overtuned
Ya as a "average at best" mnk player I can't keep up with controller. I am trying to transition to controller but every other aspect of the game is miserable when u know what mnk feels like. It sucks giving that up but I can't personally win close range fights on a consistent basis. So what do you do
Remove rotational AA and provide in-built options for movement. Lean into tap strafing and let everyone do it like they did the octane pad, simply double jump within 0.4s to redirect. Move while looting, etc.. Keep the aim slowdown but not the rotational, players can learn to do that manually. For reference, I bought a PC to play on MnK, because it looked way more fun. I missed the AA but stuck with it. ~1500hrs later I still suck, but I can move like a madman. Realistically, I just think the majority of controller players undervalue consistency when it comes to aim. I know I certainly did, because I thought I was just built like that based off my history in BO2. I was a crackhead with a 2.5kd with the ballista, regularly played as a +1 to clans with 100k+ when faze hit 2m. Even played with Linkzy one time. I have my moments where I 100% got reported, and then proceed to whiff 5/5 pk shots and die. It was a good push, I just missed my shots. It's a humbling experience. I've always wonder what the impact of pro-leagues swaying to MnK only would be. Those with goals and dreams of playing at a very high level naturally take the forfeit of playing with MnK. It plays into 2:31 pretty well. There will always be pub stompers abusing every mechanic possible to maximize results, and theres no nerf that will change that fact. It wouldn't be a nerf, but a change to incentive. Trying to think outside of the box here. Even official mini-tournaments that are input based like rumble for example would incentivize mixing up your inputs.
Unrelated but I dropped a 20 bomb on Wattson this morning and dropped 5 20 bombs yesterday morning, 2 on horizon, 1 on bang, 1 on octane, 1 on rev just while tryna get that solos badge
Yes!! Dazs the first tip I feel like when it comes to the config problem they should of kept the moving while looting for controller especially coming from a controller movement player Ive never use configs but the deathbox looting would be so goated to do!
Hot take, but as a siege player and apex roller player myself, just completely remove aim assist. Siege has no aim assist on console, and that's part of the reason it is respected as one of the best competitive shooters out there. I really like the approach Ubisoft are taking later this year. For a long time, siege has not been crossplay, but in just a few months here, they are going to allow console players to willingly play in pc lobbies with pc friends but to play ranked in pc lobbies on console you have to be fully stacked. This works because it puts everybody on roller at the same level, no aim assist bs, still allows them to play with their pc friends while not putting random teammates at a disadvantage in ranked. With no aim assist in the picture, give full movement back to roller. Roller movement is a skill and to just say no movement tech because you have aim assist is lazy. Let's get rid of the training wheels, and if roller players are being pussies about that and saying "oh my rank dropped" it's because they are bad at the game with bad position and taking bad fights and are boosted by crutching on aim assist. Those types of players in apex are the problem, not the actual good roller players.
unfortunately as long as copium exists, mnk players won't be satisfied with any controller change that doesn't limit the input to a 1-1 linear no aim assist enabled option
im very interested in conversations like these because im coming from another game which considers mnk at the top level "dead" (destiny 2). ive been playing apex more recently and ive noticed a lot of the same problems while fighting against controller players in apex, although not as bad. i only have about 500 hours on apex so i cant speak with the same level of expertise as i can with d2. i used to be top 500 in destiny 2 in a few different modes, and played in some tournaments. as i said ive been playing apex more again and ive been on mnk just like how i am on d2. i mained controller for the first maybe 2 or 3 years of playing destiny and apex. the aim assist in both of these games is insane in my opinion. nobody that is somewhat decent is ever missing shots on controller. if i had to take a guess at the percentage of top 500 players in d2 that play controller is about 30%, although ximming is not banned and openly allowed in destiny. from my knowledge about another 30%-40% are ximming (openly). in apex there are a few more disadvantages that again, im not as qualified to comment on lol, but it makes the problem not as bad, since something as vital as moving while looting not being available to roller players is major, at least for a player like me. not being able to tapstrafe is also pretty horrible lol. in my opinion this is just how its balanced though. i dont think its a good way to be balanced, i would rather aim assist's strength be lowered and give them access to the movement. it would HYPOTHETICALLY make controller actually enjoyable and maybe more fair for mnk. i have good aim on mnk, and this took me a few years to get. maybe i am an outlier but the aim on controller really never was the struggle point for me, i was immediately beaming people. the hard part for controller was learning how to be mobile on it lol. in apex not only is aiming harder than the game i came from, but the movement is harder too. i am decently adept at movement in apex now (pretty consistent superglides, neostrafes and so on) but that took a lot of practice to actually get the benefit of mnk to be rewarding. i think this is good and i like that the movement is difficult, but it feels somewhat unrewarding because i could just be beaming people with a prowler and a roller. speaking of... in destiny 2, there are loadouts which are basically unusable on mnk, i wont go into it because im in an apex comment sections and i dont expect people to know about d2 pvp here lmao. i dont think apex suffers this problem as badly but i feel like there are definitely a lot of weapons that are "controller weapons" while i personally dont feel a lot of "mnk weapons". things like the prowler which i mentioned, the havoc, hemlok, maybe the nemesis, and im probably forgetting a few others. again i want to say i dont feel im exactly qualified to talk on what these weapons are but this is just what ive noticed from my recent play time on mnk. i have played controller a little since ive come back to the game and it was more difficult than i was expecting but definitely still easier than mnk aim. i can get somewhat consistent one mags on mnk but definitely more on controller, especially with the weapons i mentioned. one last thing i wanted to talk about was ximming. this is a rampant problem in destiny and from what i hear, apex. ximmers do skew the numbers in apex since its not an accepted input method here. in destiny people are open about it and you can see how much of an advantage it is in a game with strong reticle friction like destiny or apex. ximming could be incredibly strong in apex, as it gives you access to things like tapstrafing and moving while looting (it does need setup to work like that). i also do want to clarify that xims (or any software version of xims) do not give "more aim assist". all it does is remap your mouse to a virtual joystick, and you keyboard to the respective controller binds. you are limited to controller sens limits, and any other limitations of the game that are controller specific. (i am not defending xims here btw) overall i think that mnk is more dead in apex than d2. aim assist strength should be nerfed, enough to where they can justify giving them access to these movement options. as i mentioned at the start i am interested in this conversation. the youtube comment section just sucks for actual convos lol.
Given It's only been a few months since I switched to m&k, but I have a very simple stance on this "issue", controller should have access to the same movement mechanics, and aim assist(if it needs to exist) should be taken down to around .15 or so 🤷♂️ I think that's more than fair, even though no matter what both inputs will always be at war with eachother for whatever reason.
People seem to forget that GYRO exists, it's not black or white, gyro is basically the middle ground, you can achieve the same accuracy compared to mnk You dont have an excuse to turn Aim assist off if you are on PC in favour of Gyro, thats what Extesyy does, you can 180, flick, move while looting and track people just like mnk when you enable gyro Disable your AA and turn on Gyro 😭, and Respawn should add native Gyro settings too
apex is turning into cod, a full roller game that is not fair or fun for mnk players that aren't god tier aimers, i played idk how many matches of solo this season and i don't think i died more than 10 times to mnk players, every single time i died the replay was a slow turn arround a corner and a one clip without missing a single bullet, aim assist is just too strong and will always be, even at 0.2 it will still be overtuned. i loved apex and have almost 4k hours on it but nowadays whenever i don't three stack the game makes me mad and sad so i just stopped playing it, which is a shame... and no, respawn will never nerf aim assist to a fair point, when roller players see that they actually need to aim for the whole time you're fighting someone its when 80% of them quit the game to go to a game where they can mindlessly shoot people for hours and call themselves good.
Can't give controller players access to movement tech without taking away their aim assist power. Don't get me wrong aim assist and movement tech are not even nearly in the same playing field - aim assist is way more disruptive than movement tech.
It’s not dead, a triple MNK team just won ALGS Split 1 LAN BUT MNK is definitely disadvantaged against controller in close range encounters. The real issue killing Apex is the cheating issue
Yep, the amount of cheating now is insane. I don't think the most people realize just how many people are cheating in one way or another. Cheats are a lot more subtle these days. And it's in every online game now. Cheating is mainstream.
AA is so strong that in r5 there is a feature called ibmm (imput based matchmaking), its great and all, but most people there are rollers so it takes a while to find a fight in 1v1s. In the live game this wouldnt work, i think they just need to nerf it close range and buff it a little long range, so full auto weapons like flatline would be usable above 50 meters. Movement for roller is long overdue
I usually spectate people that kill me and i've seen that most are on roller in PC. It just feels that any random player can drop you in half a second nowadays and i just dunno if it due to the increse roller players or cheating or both. And yes visual clutter should be reduce by a lot for MnK. Half the time i cant see shiet from all thats going on in screen and it seems its only getting worse season after season.
I think most of the time you die is probably because of soft cheating. There's a lot of players using cronus and strike pack. It's probably a big reason why there's a lot of controller players on PC now. Apex anti-cheat is already crap, imagine apex's anti-cheat trying to detect cronus and strike pack abusers. I play console and it was bad a couple of months back with people using those. It's really obvious when a guy is beaming you with 0 recoil on their weapon. At least recently, playstation and xbox has made it harder to use cronus and strikepack so it's been better. i can only imagine PC. At least my theory is a lot of the controller players in PC are using those.
ive honestly stagnated in apex, yes, i dont play as much anymore nor did i really put that much work for it but i feel like I'm so tired of getting beamed so easily by controller players. Every one clip is sus for me cause i rarely do the same, it could be because im not that good or maybe just an input thing, eitherways, i wish i had an option to tick off being matchmaked to controller players, its just unrelateable when you see their aim.
I think it just took time for more and more people to learn how aim assist works in Apex. A lot of controller players early on used too much input and actually fight the aim assist.. people used to try and learn recoil gun patterns and pull down on the stick for example before they learned about recoil smoothing. Just this change alone makes any controller player at least twice as good as they were before they knew it. Then more people started to learn about how hipfiring and ADS effects your aim assist and you see a lot more people pop in and out of hip fire for the aim assist snap accuracy if they fall off target while ADS tracking. Controller was always the better input because of aim assist but people didn’t understand how the mechanics of it in apex worked that good until later. Now a lot of people know.
Movement does save you from getting one clipped unfortunately... Ask me how I know😭😭. Barely anyone uses advanced movement that can't be done on controller tbh. Tap strafes don't count tho
Good video man. Been following your content for a while. Love to see how even when you are an MnK user you still care about controller players and i think the same as a a controller player i believe both inputs should strive for equality. However, even if we make all actions possible for both inputs is not even close. This might be an fps but movement is the literal skill gap that separates good players from gods. Not to mention that aiming with a mouse is 200%more accurate than controller. I wanna wrote more but maybe no one will read this
i have played 24 years on controller. controller needs tap strafes to do better movement (yes they could implement it in some way) . the trade off should be that aim assist gets lowered to 0.2 or even 0.15. while aim assist is needed in some way on controller it doesnt have to be that strong. i have played years in cod and other shooters without any aim assist and i was still top 1% in most of them. aim on controller should be a skill with a high skill ceiling like on mnk. i made the switch to mnk a month ago but i always thought that way. the biggest problem between mnk and controller is how unbalanced it is. controller has way less movement while mnk has no assisted aim. they need to find a good middle way so they need to buff movement and nerf aim assist. some people say in apex mnk should get like 0.1 aim assist or some shit but mnk is not the problem since controllers movement is ass while aim is highly overtuned. also on controller with 100+ fps aiming is significantly easier in mid to far range. id say 0.6 aim assist on console was needed on old gen consoles that sometimes fell down to 35fps but now there is no need to make it that strong.
Great video man! I really don’t know what the resolution is for Pro players as it pertains to controller vs MNK. But as for non pro players aim assist is mainly beneficial when all things are equal and unless your a pro player or Top 100 Pred things will almost never be all equal which means you still have room for improvement to outplay and be better than a lot of controller players. People in this game only remember dying to controller players but never MNK. (I’m a MNK player btw 13k RP peak)
Well, the fact you can tell what input you died to with 99% (i'll leave 1% for the very talanted or lucky 1 clips from MnK players that happen once in a while) accuracy says it all. Not that MnK can't 1 clip moreso the ones that make you say "f*cking aimbot". Dying to MnK = respectable, dying to a software...not really. Also, you can't remember dying to an input you hardly even see in recent times.
At pro level, obviously those guys are good players regardless. For them it's about unfairness consistency. But for most people, the skill gap just sort of melts away at times because of AA. The average controller player is terrible, and can barely run around, but you could still watch them get 5+ kills just running straight at people close range. The reason people remember dying to the controller players is because they know they shouldn't have. Getting one-clipped by someone who barely even knows how to move their character feels terrible. You can't always avoid a face to face fight. Like Dazs even said in a recent video, "If you're on MNK you shouldn't be playing entry fragger." That's a concerning problem.
I see where you are going, and it's a good direction. The graph comparing time/skill is a good way, but it needs to split into further groups: TTK or dmg output per minute, movement (ability to avoid bullets), and see this for close, medium and long-range splits. Then, putting these together would give a nice picture of the issue so that some median can be drawn. But the reality is, at almost every level IMO, TTK dominates for controller for close/medium range, and the ability to avoid extra bullets doesn't work on MNK because AA is too strong on readjustment, i.e. reactiveness. IMO, the only MNK dominance can be for the early hours of playing, the first 50-100 hrs of gameplay. Then, compared to the time graph, the controller keeps being above MNK, and other benefits don't help MNK as much. Just the facts. After all, Respawn and EA won't even bother to do that as their main graphs are only a player base and their engagement metrics, where controller players just are happier. AA keeps controllers engaged and generates more money. MNK leaves or switches or keeps playing and trying, but overall, from a business POV, it doesn't make sense to nerf AA, sadly...
The only way would be for EA to target the MNK market for CS/Valorant, whose player base is larger than current Apex. Even then, it doesn't guarantee they may get some decent slice of the pay from those users unless AA is reasonably nerfed or balanced (call it as you wish).
Oh, actually, just maybe, just maybe, they are considering at least some level of nerf just around the time when Arenas will come back with 3v3 or maybe even 5v5, which could somewhat be relevant to CV/Valorant type of players where MnK is the only input.
I think the problem is rotational AA. It’s literally instantly pulls when the target charges direction. Instead of it being set to 0 ms it should be set to 10 ms or 15 ms. The slowed down is a must to have cuz being precise on thump is hard. other then close range control sucks at every thing else. Peak shooting mnk wins. Looting mnk wins.sniping mnk win. Recoil control mnk win. movement mnk win. single fire weapon win. mirror strafing mnk win.close in your face fights mnk wins (because at 2m control aim assist does not work) shoot gun mnk wins.
*Apex Legends MNK has so many downsides for new, learning, or simply casual players. Almost all of my MNK friends are not inclined to learn to play controller just to be good at one game. It takes far more time to become well versed in MNK than it does with a controller but not everyone simply enjoys using a controller. I do think that the time it takes to become 'decent' alone keeps a lot of players from enjoying or playing Apex at all. A few of the most consistent arguments and complaints I've heard and shared as 'new' or 'casual' players are: (besides that controller aim assist is "OP") Its hard to track quick moving players [those pesky little octane mains], that you die in one clip in close range, and that you can't see anything beyond muzzle flash. When you hear arguments from other controller players I think they fail to understand that there is a population of MNK players that are just not good at the game AND don't get aim assist which gatekeeps them from playing at all. The aim assist that Apex has is strong enough to track (at range, with at least a little human help) pretty quick movements; with the inhuman reaction it provides, it makes one clips much more accessible at closer ranges- which is where the majority of meaningful interaction happens. I think that if Apex or the community is not willing to dull down on aim assists' affects in gameplay, then dulling down the muzzle flash will be the best thing to help MNK players by allowing them to see and react accordingly; especially considering aim assist continues to track and 'react' beyond muzzle flash. HOWEVER, I thoroughly believe that controller NEEDS the accessibility to loot while moving. I'm torn on tap strafing because there is a large meaningful skill gap there on MNK adverse to when controller had that ability and you could tap strafe with no additional input.* Before Apex, I hardly had any opportunity to play any competitive shooter title. I've had few opportunities as a kid to enjoy the classic CODs I and II but those were both on the Playstation and I only really played zombies. I'd like to say I was average but I simply didn't have enough of the multiplayer experience to compare. Just slightly beyond that time, I've had very minimal (like 1/20 of my total 4000 hours in Apex) experience in "my new MNK market" since I've just bought my first 'official' computer. This minimal experience involved 1-2 months before the death of H1Z1 and a little bit of CSGO/PUBG. Now onto Apex, I've put in a lot of time and effort in order to become "decent" and then some to become "above average." Since 2019 when Apex first came out, obviously everyone was relatively bad at first, I've been slowly grinding up to become the player that I am today. I sit at what I think is a solid 2.1 KD and can 'easily' get Diamond assuming I'm in a good mood and motivated to play Apex at all. I say this because when I'm in a good mood I'm winning very consistently. Some days I'm going absolutely crazy, though some days I'm just completely feeding nonstop so I stop playing at all. This is all not to mention the amount of time I've put into Dota 2 since it's initial conception. Though it isn't an FPS shooter, it most definitely helped with my hand-eye coordination. Not too long ago from today, there came a few days of consistently dying to controllers over and over. I'd die, spectate my opposing team, and see controller looters and perfect aim tracking- yada yada. I forced myself, convinced myself, and just slightly out of spite in those frustrating moments to be motivated in learning controller to the best of my ability (which is when I learn most efficiently, when I'm hyper fixated). It took me a mere two weeks in order to start winning nearly every close range fight which was not nearly as consistently possible back on MNK. Seeing my progress not only in the close range department, I started to see a match of skill in mid range as well-- not so much with sniping long range but I never really had that inclination on MNK either. Considering my progress and my current skill after *a mere two weeks time,* I made a best educated estimate that if I were to keep my motivation for controller I'd be just as good - if not, better - than my MNK counterpart in three months. Mind you, Apex Legends has been out for five years. Five years of learning MNK vs a few weeks of playing on controller-- GRANTED my previous controller experience when I was a kid. If it wasn't for how engaging MNK seems in comparison to controller, I would have switched ages ago. And believe it or not, if it wasn't for how well and quickly I type, that probably would play a factor in me switching as well. I enjoy clicking on a keyboard more than using a joystick. All that, and add in a high skill ceiling for movement/aim on MNK provides me a reason for playing at all. Took me 15 minutes to write all this but dang.
There’s no aim assist in Rainbow Six Siege. Mouse and Keyboard is completely dominant in R6 but on console you’re not allowed to use Mouse and Keyboard unless you’re cheating using a Xim
I can understand why companies are pushing cross play to allocate servers and so on, but it is a complete failure on the devs on failing to properly balance inputs that go beyond over tuning AA. It is a hard task, but there is a paper my Microsoft on crossplay out there over Quake or Unreal and introducing cross play, and there original conclusion is that it is not healthy bc mnk is just better designed for fps games. This hardware difference evolved into over tuning AA in games like Halo Infinite and X Defiant that are two others that come to mind and can be more over tuned than in Apex. Apex's aim assist consists mainly of rotational AA and the slow down or friction to help with tracking at mid to close range. I very much agree with allowing controller to have more accessibility like move while loot and event tap strafing. When you open a box the fact that your stick does nothing is crazy. I can see why they have more focus on controllers and having lower floor of entry for casuals on console, but they get the choice to play with pc unless they play with a friend. I believe inputs should be preference based in terms of design, feel, and comfort. Instead I hear it makes up for people who are mechanically lacking on mnk because they have AA to help them shoot better and make up for lack of mechanics. Hal is a great example of that for pro play. As for Cronus, Xens, aim bots, Configs, automated movement, and so on is a whole other story. it sucks they are being exploited and are hard to detect, but cheaters as a whole are an issue and needs to be addressed more aggressively. you can search on RUclips and someone is plugging a discord or a service. I just hope one day they actually balance inputs one day instead of just toning down the AA value, sadly they won't turn it down lower bc they did do it in the first or second season and controller players were complaining so badly when they dropped it down to .3, if i can remember right off the bat, saying how they are this rank and now they can't hit a single shot. I feel like balance will come from them turning down AA values, allowing loot while moving, and also tap strafe (if you can aim, on mnk or controller its not that bad tbf) . For anyone who doesn't know controller can't tap strafe bc of the hardware limitation of the joy sticks. Joy sticks are variable resistors which carries a set value to move so it will read 1 and you will walk, while mnk's movement is read like "w, w, w, w, w, w, w, w, w", which makes us lurch and is why we can't walk without holding a button in games like CSGO. A simple fix for this would be start pushing Hall effect joysticks and translate some of the analog reads from the resistors to digital reads like how pc reads their input, but again that wont happen bc controllers are essentially built to break and have you replace them.
It’s not aim assist it’s ROTATIONAL Aim Assist back in the day we didn’t need that for us to be good at game it’s to keep the player base hooked to make it seem like they are way better then they are I know if they took away rotational aim assist more people would struggle to hit their shots if you feel like your so good at the game you’ll keep playing and if you keep playing you’ll spend money a lot of kids who kill these movement players are doing full tracking without missing a shot with less then 1000 hours on the input it’s crazy controller isn’t busted they need aim assist it’s a fact I used to play on roller years ago but nowadays it’s just crazy OP that’s why so many pros are switching that right there should let you know it all + all the bugs crap servers 20 tic rate cheaters out the wazoo it’s crazy the Devs need to do better that’s a fact it’s all a cash grab to them
Let me get this straight think mouse and keyboard or 100% not to get banned, you as a casual controller player one percent of the players are not using a corona Zen. But had a pc if you have any device with on your computer on your monitor that was a zen at the same time they use in mod on the settings for computer nine times out of 10. They are really cheating controller players never aim a certain way, but yes, they got a script from aim bot buying hacking etc I’m has a casual player why tf need cheating for the money but at same time pc players they going cheating ass off anyway no reason cheating at any game 3:12 for FPS GAME
Personally i think rotational aim assist needs to be changed/removed for pc. Having a computer do the reaction for you is not ok. The slow down bubble imo is fine although it does mess with gun recoil. Console players are a different subject entirely. I think moving while looting should be required to give to controller players.
I stopped solos after one day just because in 8 of 10 games you get sprayed down by a roller player. Idc if I get matched with AA abusers but at least use SBMM so average players like me can actually enjoy the game. I dont want to play with ppl who are clearly above diamond skill level and have additonally AA. Yes, I know that the majority of the playberbase is on console or roller and thats why I say at least give us SBMM back especially on solos coz your rank doesnt get affected on this (which was the major point of the SBMM hate). So at least give me similiar skilled roller players based on their K/D, winrate etc. or just let me play with in only MnK lobbies. Im pretty sure many ppl would wait 40-60 secs just for an input based/MnK lobby
@@zsideswapper6718 hitting wall bounces is cute but unless coupled with a tap strafe beforehand it's just a cool trick to show your other controller friends. Doing both enables movement that is game changing.
I feel like they should put 60 fps console aim assist at 0.4, and put 120 fps console/pc controller at 0.35 but they add moving while looting and tap strafing to controller through accessible inputs that you can adjust in the settings. Right now I play on console at 60 fps with 0.4 aim assist because im trying to get used to the lower aim assist for when I switch to 120 fps soon and I can say for certainty that 0.6 aim assist is way too much for any game and I feel like console players never really get better or could be even better if they weren't used to such strong aim assist. Obviously console and controller needs some aim assist because we are using our thumbs to aim after all, but I and several other console players get way too used to having your cursor placed on the target for you whenever your aim is in their general proximity. It grants a very unconscious way of aiming which greatly hinders improvement if you intend to upgrade and be lowered to 0.4
I have to disagree that aim assist can only be used at the top of the skill ceiling, all players are getting benefit using aim assist 100%. Where it needs to be nerfed IMO is hip fire tracking, that's it. Keep similar strength and qualities going into ADS (during transition) and in ADS. I think it unfairly allows tracking in close range fights that would normally be a large skill to develop and needs to be developed on KB+M.
I have played since season 5. This season i left the game finally. Because they added kill cam and i realized the stuaiton finally. Eveyone beaming me with 0 MS reaction time. AA is crazy op and it is so annoyng. Grinding is so meaningless in this stuation. It catches even the tap strafe ör other movements like wall jump or slide jump etc.
Theres no solution at this point cuz respawn knows that they F*ck up at not nerf controller before it gets extremely OP, now at least 80% of the player base is playing on controller and we all know that learn to play on MNK from 0, tooks months and even years. Nerf controller = killing at least the casual player base...
District is a crybaby and you actually explain with facts. Only reason I can learn from your tips and not the “10x pred pro teacher” or whatever he calls himself
i dont hate crossplay, but for the sake of being competitive and its integritty... its imho not possible atm to make it fair. we can make it balanced, but not fair. what i mean by that is that lets say both inputs had an overall comparable playerbase in all the ranks. they would win as much, lose as much... etc. a coin flip is balanced. but is it rly fair? in a game like apex, purely losing due to ur input, or having a worse performance purely due to input shouldnt be the case if u ask me. i dont think there should be pros and cons for each input for it to be fair. u shouldnt have a benefit or a disposition for being on one over the other. that to me, doesnt belong in a competitive shooter like this. a shooter like this... its a game where ur constantly putting in inputs, and they matter SO SO much for the outcome. a game more akin to rocket league i wouldnt be as mad at. there isnt any support given to either input, tho i do believe controller is better for that game overall, but thats because the game is just more designed for it. it makes sense, its more intuitive, and just works better there. on shooters, controllers are given aa, because they are objectively worse for most of the game, which is moving and shooting. what annoys be, is that theres even a possibility of controller being better, even if its just in certain situations. the best performing input should always be the best choice. i wouldnt mind crossplay that much if it was clear that controller was just worse. it could be close, but it should obviously be the worse choice. mnk players get mad when facing controller players not because they are better, they get mad when they lose BECAUSE the controller player is given free assist baked into the game. why isnt there aim assist for mnk aswell? think we all know why. idk why its so hard for many ppl to accept that controller just is worse at shooters (or rather precision). realistically, i think the solution is segeragation (and ofc, have crossplay as an option for those that dont mind), or just making it so that its CLEAR that mnk is the better choice. i would love for there to be a world where they can both coexist without issues, but because the 2 inputs are inherently VERY different with one having analog sticks and the other one being rather binary... its unlikely to happen. from a design pov, they are 2 extremely different sets of inputs. ones a hammer, ones a screwdriver, they are both meant to get some sort of metal rod into a material, but they do it so very differently u wont have the same results even if u try to change how the results end up. tldr, there shouldnt be situations in any competitive game where u win because of getting assist from the game or other similar sources when the enemy doesnt get the same. its not fair. i think its fine to win because ur just objectively better. if u beat someone on controller because ur on mnk when mnk is naturally (with no assist) thats fine. if u beat someone on mnk when ur on controller because its for said game the objectively better input (again with no assist) thats fine. where i start to have problems with it is if ur beating someone else because of ur input choice due to having assistance. i dont think it ever will be fair for the forseeable future. i think segeragation is the play, and if not controllers should be worse, cus they literally are.
Yes, ive introduced a friend of mine to apex and he's as good if not better at me when shooting other players in just a week. I have around 1k+ total apex hours througout the seasons and the fact that a 1 week old controller player(on console) is similar if not better than me in shooting is crazy for a shooter fps game. Theres also the pisspoor matchmaking where we verse preds with 10k+ kill almost every game and the occasional(more like frequent since dont know if theyre just controller players) cheaters(on pc) and almost all people are smurf cements the MnK as a dead input for me. I have stopped playing it on my on and only play it if my friend invites me to play.
I'm only playing this season because i bought the pass once completed I'm done with Apex. I'm not switching to controller, since the release of this season i have already started to play other games.
In my opinion aim assist it self isnt even the biggest issue its a combination of screen shake on flesh damage and visual cluter Screen shake is a problem not only because it works against the consept of higher zoom levels but also because its a mechanic that exist to punish people out off position (in zone or still fighting despite beeing cracked) 1 part is how does it work against m&k more then roller -despite existing on BOTH INPUTS m&k players get the worst treatmant due to screen shake not ajusting for higher zoom kevels what i meen by that is lets say im useing a 3x on my flatline and my roller friend is useing a 1x/iron sight If he gets hit on flesh while scoped in his screen shakes for 10 pixles what translates to 5 meters of in game movemant away from target If i scope in my 3x i move same 10 pixels BUT that translate to 15 meters of in game movemant and thats the first problem that game it self punishes someome for useing a ar/marksmen/snipe if they go above 2x zoom level 2. part of this is there isnt ami assist on sniper and very litle on 3 or 4x scope which make roller players not even considere it an oprion unless playing burst/singlefire wepons that doenst get used ads in closerange 3. This is ONLY MY GUESS but i feel like aim assist slow down also negates part off the screen shake because the camera acnt flick away as fast it eather flicks less because teh initial movemant is eaten by slow down of the imer for how long you are offcenter runs out before it gets to savere and combined with them useing a 1/2 x that has less mo movemant of the camera they are steady and smooth despite fighting in zone or at 30 hp The way to fix this is A) remove the elemental screen shake (zone, lava or other natural sorce of damge and wildlife) true a setting, intirelly or make the stocks better becuse "large aim drift reduction" my ass B) make a gold stock that ignores all forms of screen shake and gut the compatitivness off your game becuse there are only 5 per match C) make a r5 level where people have infinate hp and are constly on fire to trigger screen shake and learn to ovecome it becuse thats all we can do
I think that aim assist is a band aid solution to a hardware problem that is controllers are NOT built to keep up with modern titles. Outside of aim assist, everything on a controller in a cross input PVP environment is worse. Buttons often do 2-3 different things that often conflict, buttons are placed in a way that outside of triggers, ALL of them are to be used with the thumbs, and thumb sticks are largely incapable of precision in comparison to a mouse. I actually think that gaming needs to look at the hardware of the controller itself, and move to something that requires less assistance to begin with, while still remaining familiar enough to players. Retaining the thumbstick for movement while having a different mechanism control the camera. There's a video on here where this guy replaces his thumbstick with a ball that can be rotated from the front and back, allowing for greater precision AND the ability to access other buttons without having to sacrifice camera movement. I think fps gaming needs something like that in order to move forward from this aim assist situation.
Even if they never remove /buff aim assist, I'm gonna stick to m&k, who wants a bot to correct their aim, I prefer apex over other shooters for high ttk and there is satisfaction in downing an opponent without aim assist hitting each and every bullet accurately and one clipping them. It's rare to one clip on m&k but when it happens it's me hitting that and it's worth it
Personally ik how to play both inputs, but overall i have way more experience on roller. Aim assist is not that crazy in my opinion, it definitly has its moments and for sure it makes controller very strong up close, but its not as if it doesnt take skill to use. People arguing against controllers are acting as if when you pick a controller up, you you just lock on to every target you see intantly missing no shots. As someone who plays on both inputs though, I feel you can do way more on mnk than roller overall, people seem to just be picking up roller more most likely because of close range advantage and how easy it is to aim. Personally, though, I love both inputs and like to switch it up from time as it adds a new feel to the game. Love your content Dazs keep up the good work, man❤
Just try the settings adam showed in his highly viral video and you know aim assist is the problem. What a dump video. The average player uses no custom settings at all but if they do its more than just unfair in favor for roller.
Bro, I don't wanna be overly negative and I have nothing against your channel/content usually. But why release such a nothingburger of a video. You added pretty much nothing new, interesting or constructive to the conversation with this. If anything you even downplayed the issue, considering that you kept questioning some of the disadvantages of mnk. Like, we all know it's a inferior to controller currently (and has been for a while). If you wanted to explore actual meaningful solutions that could be implemented, you could've talked about the aspects of gyro-aim or possible changes to mnk to keep up (Halo added a certain amount of aim assist for example). If you didn't have the ambition to offer any solutions, than the least you could've done is present the issue in a more appropriate complexity instead of those graphs. The way it stands, this video is pretty much just clickbait to hone in on an popular issue.
You may disagree, but compiled each of those topics. Added my own thoughts on what needs the most attention and provided my own constructive feedback to the conversation. Made this video because was confident there is currently a problem to discuss it.
@@Dazs Oh, a problem there is. You just didn't discuss it. Look, obviously you put some work into the video and I am sure you had good intentions. But for anyone active in the Apex community, there's not going to be much new/interesting stuff to get out of your "discussion" of the topic. You barely explored the actual implications of the entire balance-debate. You were mostly just fence-sitting. I don't wanna be an ass'ole here, and I get it's also hard to truly share your thoughts when there's an image that you have to maintain. But it's genuinely the way I feel about the video.
@BruceWayne-wh4of no imagine to uphold, genuinely felt we need To tackle this in layers. With tackling cheating such as cronus we can see real data. I mentioned each part to tackle to get to a root cause. That is the bigger discussion no one is hitting on. We need the casuals to hear all this. Aim assist higher up is a problem. Don’t think anyone has a clear solve for it. Because you hit AA too hard the casuals who struggle are impacted. Why the cheaters is my biggest focus here in skewing data. Companies need To stop use of these products. Then also a give and a take. Give movement to controller, but we can ask what aim assist is too much or too little. If we discover AA is only strong in a small percentage, I can live with it. Because those genuinely put in the time. But I personally need to know the playing field is equal. Even in the comment section of this video one person said they use cronus zen because they want to equal the playing field (aka cheat). Gotta deal with wallers and aim botters to. I look at the problem as one solution at a time.
@@Dazs Idk, stuff like "cheating is skewing the data" is a bit weak of an argument, when there's a whole pro-scene which should technically be 100% cheater-free. This is the pool of players from where you can get data. Obviously not representative of the entire playerbase, but a good start since it provides exact analytics for potential balancing. I agree that casuals need to hear this, but if I was a casual that just watched this video, there wouldn't really be a main take-away point for me. I probably wouldn't even understand the core difference that aim assist makes in a fight (you could've talked about the fact that there are 3 different types of aim assist you gain on roller, and also a main reason why every pro gravitates towards playing 4-3 linear as a sens). Most casuals don't even get the difference between rotational aim assist and "normal" aim assist. They don't understand their own input basically, and therefore don't improve / don't experience the problems that more experienced, high-skilled players will. This is all stuff you could've mentioned, when initially laying out the issue imho. Maybe food for thought, if you plan on making a follow-up video to discuss the issue in a more detailed way.
I want to, but I am confident the cheater situation is way worse than we realize. I know for a fact that in higher tier lobbies and amount from what I have heard and seen is the bigger problem. I get what you are saying. But what if that stat is just not as bad if we could have better quality lobbies? That is why I put my stance on that. Goes back to what I said before. The pros get 4-3 linear nerfed. But we realize it was just a small group. We did have a 3 stack MnK team win. But from the issues in lobbies, no casual picks up 4-3 linear and just farms. I have played these pros in LAN and other situations. They are NOT this good. So its why I am harping on it. Why I mentioned Cronus Zen's being sold out, why I hit on Wallers & Aimbots. I seen so many videos exposing DMA hacks and people saying the problem is so large. So I want to know its being addressed before I can make valid claims on balancing (Which yes do need to happen). Also why I intro'd with balancing movement. Also why I mentioned if we cleaned up other areas like visual clutter. I don't want to ruin the game, but if every variable is tackled, then the tweaks to can be perfected. Again, I do get what you are saying. But I will not have a controller player complain they got "nerfed" when all other variables were tackled. When forming an argument I want to form a strong defense so there is absolutely no counter argument. No catering, I want the issue forever resolved and put to bed. I don't care of people hate me for my approach. This is how I would tackle the situation. Its an option of how to tackle it. Same as you proposed, why I said its not wrong. Do appreciate the back and forth though on this. Legit, when things change, then follow up video will come. Always done that. I don't always make videos like this. But once a month or so, we hit on something that has to be discussed. Will be back to my guide content that I enjoy immensely more making. :)
since i play on ps5 i started to use the sentinal with the car its such a good combo it makes me win anything long close the 70 raw dmg is too good if you can close the gap and since its a sniper you can fight long range ez pz
Im trash at this game, gold for life on console. MnK players would destroy me. Maybe for high level play controller is better, cause yall pros play for hours unending. But for us low tier players MnK is too hard to beat with a controller.
before leaving a dislike, I hope this sparks a genuine conversation. Did my best in this video to really talk out my genuine thoughts but my naive positivity towards having both inputs work!
Timestamps:
00:00 Mouse & Keyboard Dead On Apex Legends?
00:47 Important Things Needed For Controller Players
01:30 Majority Are Currently On Controller
01:56 Shift In Pro Meta For Input Decision
02:31 Aim Assist Not Exactly The Problem
02:56 Skewing Of Data
04:04 Time Investment To Net Results
07:58 Problem Of Mouse & Keyboard
08:29 Reality
09:02 Comparing Of Other FPS Games
09:49 Closing Question To The Community
11:22 Apex Legends Recent Balancing Positives
If apex mnk were dead a 3 mnk team wouldn't have won algs .also I absolutely love your takes ❤️ I play both inputs and I think aim assist should be brought down to 0.3 and movement should be allowed on controller
@@JayGamesAndReacts the issue with aim assist is that when someone is too used having bot winning fights for them they start to disregard other things like game sense, map movement and so on. Saw this issue with my friends. Apex is not just about shooting, which is why many controller players still hard stuck gold. It's mostly on them if you ask me.
I actually disagree with the notion that this is a complex issue that needs closer evaluation before they change something. I am sure you've seen the data being posted onto the subreddit showing the ridiculous data discrepancies between the inputs. I think what also skews this argument is that the worst of the worst players are also likely on controller (AKA your console 9-5 dad who plays a few hours after work), so a big AA/controller nerf would just turn off a huge % of the playerbase. I think the MNK playerbase is passionate about this because we LOVE this game, but if we use our stats as an example of "fun" in this game, I think its pretty universal that the experienced players on MNK are having a terrible time (K/D, avg damage, win %) are all drastically lower as you start to get faced with the 80k kill controller players who can foreal just braindead their way through their playsesh while I am sweating over the mousepad developing carpal tunnel b/c the level of aim training/shape you need to be in to stay relevant on MNK is very disproportionate.
@benmccormick4386 it's definitely insane how much more work you gotta put in to be a great mnk player let alone one who can hang with decent controller players .controller has a lower skill gap vs mnk .meaning controller is easy to master vs mnk .I love both inputs but I'm more consistent on controller and that's for many reasons
@@benmccormick4386 Years of alienating the mnk base has led to the situation where any change to aim assist would upset the coach potatoes. IMO bringing the MNK players back would be a nice tradeoff
Solo makes it clear. Almost everyone on roller even on eu server. unbeatable horizons with havok
i prefer sentinal and car
The removal of visual clutter would be a great first step. In season 0 you could use a console command to remove muzzle flashes and it made aiming so much more consistent since you could actually see what you were shooting at. I think it would also be interesting to see aim assist evolve a bit. Possibly its strength reduces when the gun is actively being fired, so the AA would be more useful to acquire a target but require more user input to stay on target when shooting. But as an MNK player I could never see myself switching over to controller unless it was for a health/mobility reason. I don't care how many advantages it can provide I simply find MNK more engaging and satisfying way to play FPS.
Visual clutter is possibly the worst. Most of the time we don't aim "at a target" but in the general direction of a target. It'd be a massive MnK buff if they actually did something about it. God forbid if there is a Caustic stink, Bang/Gibby ults, Fuse, thermites...AA locks on you in such scenarios while you spray and pray in hopes to land a bullet which almost never ends in your favor.
@@3ildcardyh honestly if I see a thermite thrown at my feet I legit accept my fate 💀
I share your pain, MnK brothers.
I have almost 3,000 hours on MnK, and I just swapped to controller and have clocked in maybe a couple hundred hours. MnK is way more fun and rewarding to learn, but I've had serious, consistent, and significantly positive results since switching to controller.
I dropped my first 20 bomb game on controller this past week and have been having a way easier time winning team fights with my ranked squad. All my friends play on MnK, but they all are anchor/support type players. I was like them on MnK. Since switching to controller, I've been way more aggressive, and it's led to us winning more team fights and games.
I will say that I deal significantly less damage than I used to while on MnK and compared to my friends who are still on MnK because they use long-range weapons effectively. I am getting way more kills, though because I realize that most fights end from close range.
I miss MnK often and will swap back on occasion when playing Mixtape or pubs, but I'm staying on controller for ranked or any tournaments.
Side note: I was inspired to make the switch after seeing Lou (from Complexity) and Albraleile (formerly of TSM, C9, Furia) switch over to controller and find success.
2nd side note: I will sometimes swap inputs mid-match to loot or hit a sick kraber shot on someone from far away. I also prefer playing certain legends on MnK like Crypto, Newcastle, Wattson
For real. Contoller to me is the key to fixing my inconsistent aim. Everything else is always there but my aim can go from impeccable and I'm hitting 2500-3000+DMG games to barely being able to hit half an R9 clip and breaking a shield.
Sometimes it's not even something physical ruining my aim consistency sometimes it can be a mental block but the ability to have a tool that takes that negative effect away and mitigate that mental block is something that can only be done with a roller if that makes sense? It's 2am so I'm legit just typing off the dome
Yep. It's all about the consistency. You don't have to worry about being perfect at all times with controller. Having an "off day" with MNK is rough.
Consistency is king. I just made the switch 2 days ago and knowing fights usually end in close quarters the AA helps a lot. This is one thing I missed about roller since I used to play a lot of cod from 2009-2013 and was a pub stomper is that I have that same confidence when shoving a team. I know I’ll hit basically all my shots and get one down and nearly if not out right down 2 people. Seeing pros who used to be mnk switch and find success is what gave me that push. My buddy and I discussed that we need a roller on our teams to help with our 3v3s and I volunteered because I grinded mmos like WoW and only really grinded fps on mnk for a short period on csgo to get SMFC rank, while my buddy grinded like hell on tactical shooters like csgo(global elite) and valorant(immortal).
@@TheCherrypoppinrobot consistency you mean not you
@@emma6648 correct
I'll quit before I convert to 'roller. Playing on a controller is not fun to me. They need to balance it out.
Mnk way funner in my opinion but controller is broken its way to broke even still its broken with the nurf
One clips used to be rare...now its like every solos killcam
magazine
@@ernest9868 thanks private ryan, but who tf says that in game
@@Slawp no problem bro. And people who know the difference, have ADHD, or are pedantic. Guess which I am
@@ernest9868 trisomic
@@isken6593 nice one. Had to google that
Im swapping to Xdefiant for now before it dies, it have a option to play only with people with the same input as you.
I feel like the best solution to this problem is that having lobbies according to your inputs. Game detecting your input and putting you in accordingly. Controller lobbies only and MNK lobbies only. No crossplay lobbies at all.
will never happen unfortunately, even if apex got rereleased with better servers, no lag compensation for high ping players, input based matchmaking and the perfect anti cheat, the damage is already done, you don't see new players, you see the same dudes playing it
what if you're on MNK but your friend is on roller and you want to play together? no chance of that happening in your scenario.
@@xiki Those are called crossplay lobbies.
@@xiki exactly, they already have a pc that runs apex, play mnk to play together or play roller to play together
@@Ottoni174 this would make few happy and alot more upset
Not gon lie. I'm wavering on mnk. I played on controller the other day and the amount of close ranged fights I won was staggering in comparison
AA rotational needs delay atm it has 0ms reaction time which is inhumane and one of the reason why aa is so strong in close range. From there we could see if they should for example buff long range aa to make up for it. Movement tech is really not need for both inputs 98% of the time good position and shooting is way more important. Moving while looting should be available for both inputs.
Apart from that I personally dont think controller belong in competitive shooters if they can only perform with aa. And they need aa to compete with mnk, controller are simply not an imput that is designed to play shooters. Unless they force everybody to use gyro aim and that only works with Xbox finally adds it to there controller.
I agree on the delay for sure, this impact most likely the pro players more than anything. I think movement tech should be allowed for both just to be fair. But AA at a distance would be a solid trade off. Solid points here though. Why through visual clutter its the most annoying.
Due to input limitations/delays, i wouldn't mind AA buff at longer range as a trade off for close range nerf. The things AA does in close range is just ridiculous.
Funny thing is, in recent times i see many CONTROLLER players complain about Aim Assist, lol. I was even watching SooXFar stream recently, him and iTemp were malding. Guess its all laughs and giggles until MnK leaves/switches and you face players on "even field" after moving from Console to PC to avoid those even fields and have "shove" range advantage.
The way I've always looked at it is no matter what input you play if there is anything inside the game (in this case movement) it should be allowed regardless of input
@@JayGamesAndReacts Yeah, but it's not like they deliberately blocked movement on controller. Inputs just aren't designed to do the same things. I imagine it would take some significant dev time to make a functional tap strafe on controller, for example. It would be pretty janky, most likely. And we all know EA isn't allotting studios with resources for that. Gotta feed the corporate machine.
Moving while looting could definitely be done, though. That should, in theory, be a pretty easy thing to change. But I've never seen their spaghetti code, so who knows.
@yahootube90 they block configs which in turn blocked tap strafing for controller but they did that bc ppl were using configs for other stuff
I'm old as shit.
The idea that "aim assist" is even a thing is ridiculous to me.
I don't get why you would even play the game if you gotta have training wheels.
MNK forever. Even if I get run over by the pathetic children who bumperbowl.
No joke, every controller player who uses "Tap Strafing" as an argument, is absolutely.. yea idk how not to be mean here tbh. Not being able to change direction mid air is a disadvantage, definetely, but does that really help a casual kbm player with winning gun fights ? I dont think so. If you know how to use your aim assist, its way stronger than movement techs, not being said that most of kbm players are not able to do as much movement as ( for example ) faide or lemonhead, those guys are only the top %. And the players who are able to throw out all diff kinds of movement techs, def put hundreds of hours in firing range. I mean when I get killed by a level 65 Pathfinder in Gold ranked and spectate him, and I see how he aims like a god.. like common, dont tell me thats fair.
Im not saying controller players shouldnt have aim assist, its just way to strong in apex as you can see bc literally every pro switched to roller.
My opinion.
I feel like as a MNK grinder you KNOW that this is an existential crisis facing the game which makes it straight up not fun to play on MNK anymore. How is it that I can call it with 100% accuracy when I die to roller/console? Something just doesn't feel right. Combined with the recent changes to matchmaking, its so demoralizing being a 3k hour player who doesn't stand a chance against controller players with a quarter of my play time/game knowledge. Anyone elses stats HALVED this season even though I'm technically the best I have ever been? Something stinks and I don't like it.
You took the words right out of my mouth. Ive been having the exact same experience but I only have like 1500 hours. I have to put in work to get consistent 150 sprays but I somehow get one clipped by a roller player who doesnt even put their gun away when theyre running. I also can guess with perfect accuracy as well because assisted aim looks different.
Idk know if you agree with Dazs or not but there were some terrible takes. theres nothing fair about giving controller full mnk movement but leaving AA the same. All mnk gets is an option to remove visual clutter? Ive never felt like ive lost a gunfight because of that. People arent switching to roller in droves because controllers feel nice in their hands and it shouldnt matter if theyre the majority, skill should be rewarded regardless.
Yo Dazs im the dude that knew xarcotix we ran into eachother a few months ago. They never should have done the hipfire spread nerf. Thats what really sent controller over the edge over mnk in a lot of situations and also visual clutter.
i think a lot of people overlook something important to realize about apex aim assist. its the exact same aim assist as titanfall. and it worked in titanfall because the speed of the game is over 5x the speed of apex by default. and you can really master the movement in titanfall and youre doing 10-15x the speed of apex. so it needs to be ramped down for it to "belong" in apex.
Don't nerf rolles. Boost comfort of using M&K. Remove visual clutter, camera shake and cross hair screen movement. If you learn to read aim assist guiding things like fire, muzzle flashes and legend's abilities don't hold you back that much. On m&k you can have better control over your aim but when everything starts flashing and shaking your whole view there is nothing that can help you keep track of enemies and you're in disadvantage against rollers
40-60% aim assist and 0ms delay is way too strong. They need to make controller feel better overall to play, it's so clunky in Apex, then nerf aim assist. The best nerf would be to rotational aim assist. There's no reason players shouldn't even have to use their thumbs to one clip someone. Clips of streamers getting one clipped by a controller player not even using their thumb (solos shows kill cams and with those show how many players are being carried by aim assist) hurts the soul. I swapped to MNK from controller as I thought the same thing as most ignorant controller players. "They use their whole arm to aim." I thought it would be easy, it wasn't. Not at all. Being an MNK player means even putting in over 1000 hours still isn't enough to compete against aim assist. Meanwhile, 100 hours of controller can be enough to consistently beat MNK players in Apex.
@@animegopher I agree with you but realistically speaking apex is earning way too much money on console players and casual pc roller users. If they nerf rollers entry barrier for most of casual players will go up even higher. It make sense from game design perspective but it won't bring more money to respawn and ea. On the other hand boosting comfort of using M&K won't affect negatively most of paying players and may lead to more dedicated M&K players stick with Apex. Even though controller will still have advantage. I would love to see aim assist nerfed but I'm not seeing this happening any time soon
I remember someone once said controller players play on pc and complain about mnk yet they themselves don’t use an mnk. i still think about that to this day.
Yeah they are some roller delusional ppl that think mnk is easier and OP 😂
I switched to roller yesterday. I have over 2,000 hours on mnk, and I consider my mnk skill at close range fights to be quite good. But literally my first game of solos on roller was one of my most successful Fragment drops ever. I was shocked. Instead of needing to use clever, frantic evasion to stay alive at Monument and Streamer Building, I was able to simply 1 or 2 clip the enemies at close range. I realize now that better aim is wayyyy more important than better movement.
I just switched over to controller this season. I just couldn’t hang anymore. I’m not amazing at mouse and keyboard, but spent all my recent time playing video games on a mouse. Literally my first game I started playing better. The amount of one clips I get now is insane. The movement benefits of m&k aren’t enough anymore.
I highly doubt we're a majority even on PC. Watching streamers, playing the game myself, over 60% of every lobby is controller looting. Also, learning to utilize AA is not exclusive to Pros either, many are well aware of the concept "don't fight AA trying to aim on your own and overcompensate", its often just newbies who say "mine doesn't do that". If anything, Pros are the ones who don't just crutch AA in its strongest range but train all ranges unlike the average Andy you'd see in-game miss 5 mags past X range, you scale to end the encounter assuming its a bad player just to get aimbotted more or less. Those players have no idea how the firing range looks like and just hop in a match right away and shove everything relying on their precious input to do it all.
As for MnK, when it comes to Apex, i've seen many recently talking about it - Mechanics. Many of the pros in Apex have incredibly mediocre mechanics even if it sounds offensive. Granted, we can't expect everyone to be Hollow but in other eSport titles you see much closer gaps. I know its not all mechanics but having bad aim/strafe and not even trying to improve is not a solution either. I've been watching ALGS past year and a half and often scratch my head as "how is that guy even a Pro?". The ones who impress are mostly Asians and Zero from DZ whom put the time in. I was watching DF Pite grinding #1 pred and that guy aim is horrific. I know i said its not all mechanics but you really can't get away with bad mechanics either especially at that level in lobbies filled with controller players (whether it is ALGS or Ranked) and complain you got 1 clipped after missing 2 mags on a stationary target more or less, there has to be some balance. Bad recoil control, bad mouse control, can't strafe/dodge whatsoever standing like a dummy. "Human error" is organic but its often not an error but rather skill issue.
And we can even use all the off Wish/budget Faide's as an example. Cranking sensitivity to 15-25cm/360, supergliding everywhere but missing 80% their shots spazzing like crazy and shouting "cOnTrOLlER sHiTTeR" without even realizing how pointless their movement is in the given scenario and how awful their aim is, trying to copy a player playstyle and not even analyzing it. I'll glaze Faide a little but his aim is very solid for the pace he plays at, good strafes and his movement is smooth, precise and calculated 90% of the time, serving actual purpose such as dodging, escaping sticky situation etc rather than being just style point oriented getting you killed. And that also reflects in his viewer count despite having a personality of a paper towel, barely interacting with chat and his mods banning everyone for no reason.
As a previous T500 Overwatch players I was shocked to see some of the pro Apex MnK players aim too ngl. And like you said it isnt just all aim mechanics.. But jesus.
input based matchmaking would just be fire to try
I don't think we should give controllers all of the movement techs, if they start lurching close range with aa its over for MnK.
Imagine getting instantly molested by a 1 clip with an R9 and the octane bunny hops away at Mach 10
Then remove rotational aim assist, or limit it to have a delay to start and then change the strength of the aim assist slowly.
I feel like they are doing this now though, I've seen them get some weird air speed recently.
Controversial? HAHA no mnk is 100% dead and you just can't disagree
It’s not lol 😂, you can do a survey of Apex players on PC and still the majority of them will be playing MNK
@@coreybroussard5264 the higher the rank the smaller that percentage gets. but you can still reach any rank with mnk if youre good enough, the issue is that you have an entire other layer of skill you have to perfect compared to roller players.
@@coreybroussard5264but they won't be enjoying it/are complaining about aim assist. I perfected my aim to the best of my ability. 5k hours on aim trainers. I picked up a controller again and beat my highest kill game. The only thing that keeps me from fully switching is the ability to control my crosshair movement. TAP strafe is just fun. Movement is just a generally higher skill ceiling.
@@coreybroussard5264Maybe in bronze
It's the inability to be consistently top tier with my aim that is moving me away from the game once again. My game sense and everything else is always there no matter what unless I have a drink or something but my aim hinges on too many different variables that I need to be able to control all the time and if even 1 of them is not under control my aim goes out of the window. It's simply a gamble but contoller can pretty much make that leeway much bigger and thus my aim will be vastly more consistent in comparison too m&k. @@Phillipmamowfwifharts
the only thing we are asking for as mnk players is not nerf aim assist, but rather balance it by REMOVING ROTATIONAL AIM ASSIST. its that simple. mnk players have a reaction time of at best 200ms, so when tracking a strafing player, they cant hit shots as good as controller, while aim assist removes that time gap and instantly sticks your aim to strafing enemies. so removing rotational aim assist will allow mnk and roller to have the same reaction time while keeping aim assist.
I am a console player and I have wanted keyboard and mouse on the consoles for the longest time. I think K & M should be on everything like it is in COD and Fortnite and the finales and every other battle royal that's out there.
solution is pretty simple in terms of goals:
1. give roller native parity with mnk in regards to movement.
2. phase out AA for gyro.
done.
This is the actual solution right here, controller can become a full fledged input without the need for assistance anymore.
Just look at the Splatoon pro scene, there's also a few creators who are gods with gyro on PC, like ihardscope or Japa
if they do that they need to give console mnk support and halve AA + remove rotational AA. Most people aren't just going to want to play if they got forced to swap this late into the game
@@axtra9561or just never let console play with pc 👍
Better solution
1. Remove aim assist entirely
@@IDKWHAT2NAMETHISS Rainbow six siege
Hmm.. i feel like if pro players are shifting inputs, there may very well be an issue. I personally play apex with mnk because this is my preferred input method.
Although i play apex, i dont play with the aim to become like an incredible apex player at the expense of my overall base fps skill. I wont switch inputs, because mnk is the input method i fell in love with all those years ago, before apex. I remember literally preferring to play mnk over controller for basically everything aside from car games ofc.
I am a strange creature that used to be controller player on console and then I switched to pc. First on controller and for few months now on mnk. And what a blast is to start to master a little mnk. The game is less boring to me and i have to think differently in order to conter the strenghs of controller players. I wish aim assit was a little nerfed really just a little. Or that more players just do like me and try their best on mnk.
I instantly switched to mnk when I came to PC Apex
Playing and winning with your own skill is very satisfying my friend.
Controller modders, in my opinion, have fundamentally changed this conversation.
If there weren't players modding their controllers, the game would be much healthier.
Other than that.
M&kB has mechanics that are inaccessible to controller players, because of this mechanical difference, is why controllers have the .20% more aim assist than KB&M.
People are claiming that this .20% is unbeatable, compared to their KB&M AA.
It's not like this.
If you're losing to a controller player on KB&M, that player is most likely modding their controller inputs, and it's not their input method that is creating the superiority. It's the fact that they're running scripts on a controller, which make them unchallengable, on whatever input you're using, if you're not also cheating with mods on a controller.
How about this:
Ban the controller modders, then re-visit the topic of AA on controllers, then.
You'll notice that KB&M players won't complain about losing to controller players anymore.
Because they simply won't be losing to them as often.
It's way easy to mod a controller with scripts, with zero consequences. Which is where, in my opinion, this whole conversation became way out of hand. Not very many people are willing to address this because they mod their controller too, and want to gas-light the entire community into having this very discussion, rather than solving the actual issue at hand. Which is the massive cheater infestation of controller modders.
I wonder how this conversation would stand, if all of the community weren't forced to fight against controller modder cheaters. Then, and only then, can the controller input be seen as it actually is: An inferior input method, compared to KB&M.
Ban those controller modder players, and or their capability to mod their controller inputs: then BAM, KB&M players would have a whole different dialog.
I have a PC and both consoles. I've played competitive comp on all platforms.
My last thoughts on the matter are that:
If the ability to mod a controller wasn't available, this entire conversation would be flip flopped.
The entire world would see just how overpowered these controller mods ACTUALLY ARE.
Then, you'd all realize that, huh, wow, I guess the controller input method was actually just a regular input method. The only thing that was unfair was the scripts they were spamming on said controllers.
If you put a KB&M player against a controller player of equal skill, whom isn't modding thier controller inputs with scripts: that's a fair fight, where both people have a fair chance. There are far too many variables to calculate who will win, if they're both playing fairly.
However; if the controller player is modding their controller inputs, the victory goes to the controller modder 9/10.
You see, we're not arguing which input method is superior, that's the agenda that these cheaters want you all to focus on.
The real issue is that: the cat is out of the bag, everyone knows how to cheat on their controller without getting in trouble.
Now, that's almost all you see, in every lobby available. In all skill levels, all game modes, everyone is modding their controller inputs to cheat, and feel like a pro.
This is why this conversation is still going about input methods. Take a step back and think about what I've said.
I hope you all come to the same logical conclusion, so that we can play the game fairly, and not direct our hatred towards those who choose specific input methods because they simply prefer those input methods. We should vindicate the reputation of all controller players, and showcase that they're not as OP as you think with standard AA.
The only way to expose the truth about input methods: is to ban the use of 3rd party controller modder devices. That way: this massive cheater infestation would dial back some, and we can finally deduce that controllers THEMSELVES are not the problem. KB&M players are not the problem.
People who are allowed to mod their controllers with scripts ARE THE PROBLEM.
I would agree that AA probably takes the blame for a lot of more shady stuff. If the enemy isn't rage-hacking, then most people don't think of cheats and just assume it's AA. But cheat software/hardware is so much more prevalent and complex.
Mate, there is no aim assist on M&KB.
It's literally infinitely more aim assist.
In fact an argument can be made for there being negative aim assist on K&M due to visual clutter/screen shake/aimpunch/recoil etc.
I genuinely don't understand why I have to play with people on a different input in the same platform (pc) and lobbies. Even as a person that grew up on CSGO and absolutely no console gaming, I was able to put a little more than 2 weeks on a cheap controller off of amazon and get 1 clips fairly easily in gold-plat lobbies. Controller 100% is way more consistent than MnK will ever be. The only reason I don't switch to controller is because I want to have fun and not move like a bot all the time.
The other side of the controller problem is groups solely dedicated to creating controller configs for everything under the sun as if having a 0ms readjustment wasn't enough.
Seperate the lobbies based on input. The only solution in my opinion.
If we want to see if theres any advantage, we need to calculate the average KD for M&K vs Controller. If we see that the average kd for the controller is higer, that means that for controller players its easier to get kill than for the average person using mouse and keyboard. We could measure anything else like accuracy which is another important data set
Just putting my two cents but you have to remember in the early days of Apex that the PK and the Mastiff were incredibly strong along with the wingman. You could also put a 6x on the scout so it was a way different game. I've played both and my issue is that I've put maybe a 10th of the time on controller then I have on MnK, but I can beam harder on a roller. With the stats to back it up Aim Assist is just far too overtuned
Ya as a "average at best" mnk player I can't keep up with controller. I am trying to transition to controller but every other aspect of the game is miserable when u know what mnk feels like. It sucks giving that up but I can't personally win close range fights on a consistent basis. So what do you do
Is it still the implementation of aim assist being rotational pulling to central mass of character model over just having it as slow down?
Remove rotational AA and provide in-built options for movement. Lean into tap strafing and let everyone do it like they did the octane pad, simply double jump within 0.4s to redirect. Move while looting, etc.. Keep the aim slowdown but not the rotational, players can learn to do that manually.
For reference, I bought a PC to play on MnK, because it looked way more fun. I missed the AA but stuck with it. ~1500hrs later I still suck, but I can move like a madman.
Realistically, I just think the majority of controller players undervalue consistency when it comes to aim. I know I certainly did, because I thought I was just built like that based off my history in BO2. I was a crackhead with a 2.5kd with the ballista, regularly played as a +1 to clans with 100k+ when faze hit 2m. Even played with Linkzy one time.
I have my moments where I 100% got reported, and then proceed to whiff 5/5 pk shots and die. It was a good push, I just missed my shots. It's a humbling experience.
I've always wonder what the impact of pro-leagues swaying to MnK only would be. Those with goals and dreams of playing at a very high level naturally take the forfeit of playing with MnK. It plays into 2:31 pretty well. There will always be pub stompers abusing every mechanic possible to maximize results, and theres no nerf that will change that fact. It wouldn't be a nerf, but a change to incentive. Trying to think outside of the box here.
Even official mini-tournaments that are input based like rumble for example would incentivize mixing up your inputs.
Unrelated but I dropped a 20 bomb on Wattson this morning and dropped 5 20 bombs yesterday morning, 2 on horizon, 1 on bang, 1 on octane, 1 on rev just while tryna get that solos badge
Yes!! Dazs the first tip I feel like when it comes to the config problem they should of kept the moving while looting for controller especially coming from a controller movement player Ive never use configs but the deathbox looting would be so goated to do!
Hot take, but as a siege player and apex roller player myself, just completely remove aim assist. Siege has no aim assist on console, and that's part of the reason it is respected as one of the best competitive shooters out there. I really like the approach Ubisoft are taking later this year. For a long time, siege has not been crossplay, but in just a few months here, they are going to allow console players to willingly play in pc lobbies with pc friends but to play ranked in pc lobbies on console you have to be fully stacked. This works because it puts everybody on roller at the same level, no aim assist bs, still allows them to play with their pc friends while not putting random teammates at a disadvantage in ranked. With no aim assist in the picture, give full movement back to roller. Roller movement is a skill and to just say no movement tech because you have aim assist is lazy. Let's get rid of the training wheels, and if roller players are being pussies about that and saying "oh my rank dropped" it's because they are bad at the game with bad position and taking bad fights and are boosted by crutching on aim assist. Those types of players in apex are the problem, not the actual good roller players.
unfortunately as long as copium exists, mnk players won't be satisfied with any controller change that doesn't limit the input to a 1-1 linear no aim assist enabled option
I would remove rotational aim assist and replace it with traditional aim assist that slows the crosshair when over an enemy
im very interested in conversations like these because im coming from another game which considers mnk at the top level "dead" (destiny 2).
ive been playing apex more recently and ive noticed a lot of the same problems while fighting against controller players in apex, although not as bad. i only have about 500 hours on apex so i cant speak with the same level of expertise as i can with d2.
i used to be top 500 in destiny 2 in a few different modes, and played in some tournaments. as i said ive been playing apex more again and ive been on mnk just like how i am on d2. i mained controller for the first maybe 2 or 3 years of playing destiny and apex. the aim assist in both of these games is insane in my opinion. nobody that is somewhat decent is ever missing shots on controller. if i had to take a guess at the percentage of top 500 players in d2 that play controller is about 30%, although ximming is not banned and openly allowed in destiny. from my knowledge about another 30%-40% are ximming (openly).
in apex there are a few more disadvantages that again, im not as qualified to comment on lol, but it makes the problem not as bad, since something as vital as moving while looting not being available to roller players is major, at least for a player like me. not being able to tapstrafe is also pretty horrible lol. in my opinion this is just how its balanced though. i dont think its a good way to be balanced, i would rather aim assist's strength be lowered and give them access to the movement. it would HYPOTHETICALLY make controller actually enjoyable and maybe more fair for mnk.
i have good aim on mnk, and this took me a few years to get. maybe i am an outlier but the aim on controller really never was the struggle point for me, i was immediately beaming people. the hard part for controller was learning how to be mobile on it lol. in apex not only is aiming harder than the game i came from, but the movement is harder too. i am decently adept at movement in apex now (pretty consistent superglides, neostrafes and so on) but that took a lot of practice to actually get the benefit of mnk to be rewarding. i think this is good and i like that the movement is difficult, but it feels somewhat unrewarding because i could just be beaming people with a prowler and a roller. speaking of...
in destiny 2, there are loadouts which are basically unusable on mnk, i wont go into it because im in an apex comment sections and i dont expect people to know about d2 pvp here lmao.
i dont think apex suffers this problem as badly but i feel like there are definitely a lot of weapons that are "controller weapons" while i personally dont feel a lot of "mnk weapons". things like the prowler which i mentioned, the havoc, hemlok, maybe the nemesis, and im probably forgetting a few others. again i want to say i dont feel im exactly qualified to talk on what these weapons are but this is just what ive noticed from my recent play time on mnk. i have played controller a little since ive come back to the game and it was more difficult than i was expecting but definitely still easier than mnk aim. i can get somewhat consistent one mags on mnk but definitely more on controller, especially with the weapons i mentioned.
one last thing i wanted to talk about was ximming. this is a rampant problem in destiny and from what i hear, apex. ximmers do skew the numbers in apex since its not an accepted input method here. in destiny people are open about it and you can see how much of an advantage it is in a game with strong reticle friction like destiny or apex. ximming could be incredibly strong in apex, as it gives you access to things like tapstrafing and moving while looting (it does need setup to work like that). i also do want to clarify that xims (or any software version of xims) do not give "more aim assist". all it does is remap your mouse to a virtual joystick, and you keyboard to the respective controller binds. you are limited to controller sens limits, and any other limitations of the game that are controller specific. (i am not defending xims here btw)
overall i think that mnk is more dead in apex than d2. aim assist strength should be nerfed, enough to where they can justify giving them access to these movement options. as i mentioned at the start i am interested in this conversation. the youtube comment section just sucks for actual convos lol.
Given It's only been a few months since I switched to m&k, but I have a very simple stance on this "issue", controller should have access to the same movement mechanics, and aim assist(if it needs to exist) should be taken down to around .15 or so 🤷♂️ I think that's more than fair, even though no matter what both inputs will always be at war with eachother for whatever reason.
People seem to forget that GYRO exists, it's not black or white, gyro is basically the middle ground, you can achieve the same accuracy compared to mnk
You dont have an excuse to turn Aim assist off if you are on PC in favour of Gyro, thats what Extesyy does, you can 180, flick, move while looting and track people just like mnk when you enable gyro
Disable your AA and turn on Gyro 😭, and Respawn should add native Gyro settings too
apex is turning into cod, a full roller game that is not fair or fun for mnk players that aren't god tier aimers, i played idk how many matches of solo this season and i don't think i died more than 10 times to mnk players, every single time i died the replay was a slow turn arround a corner and a one clip without missing a single bullet, aim assist is just too strong and will always be, even at 0.2 it will still be overtuned.
i loved apex and have almost 4k hours on it but nowadays whenever i don't three stack the game makes me mad and sad so i just stopped playing it, which is a shame...
and no, respawn will never nerf aim assist to a fair point, when roller players see that they actually need to aim for the whole time you're fighting someone its when 80% of them quit the game to go to a game where they can mindlessly shoot people for hours and call themselves good.
Can't give controller players access to movement tech without taking away their aim assist power. Don't get me wrong aim assist and movement tech are not even nearly in the same playing field - aim assist is way more disruptive than movement tech.
Let mnk cue into mnk only lobbies for ranked, problem solved...
It’s not dead, a triple MNK team just won ALGS Split 1 LAN BUT MNK is definitely disadvantaged against controller in close range encounters. The real issue killing Apex is the cheating issue
Yep, the amount of cheating now is insane. I don't think the most people realize just how many people are cheating in one way or another. Cheats are a lot more subtle these days. And it's in every online game now. Cheating is mainstream.
AA is so strong that in r5 there is a feature called ibmm (imput based matchmaking), its great and all, but most people there are rollers so it takes a while to find a fight in 1v1s. In the live game this wouldnt work, i think they just need to nerf it close range and buff it a little long range, so full auto weapons like flatline would be usable above 50 meters. Movement for roller is long overdue
What a coincidence I was literally searching about this on Google a few hours ago💀💀
I usually spectate people that kill me and i've seen that most are on roller in PC. It just feels that any random player can drop you in half a second nowadays and i just dunno if it due to the increse roller players or cheating or both.
And yes visual clutter should be reduce by a lot for MnK. Half the time i cant see shiet from all thats going on in screen and it seems its only getting worse season after season.
I think most of the time you die is probably because of soft cheating. There's a lot of players using cronus and strike pack. It's probably a big reason why there's a lot of controller players on PC now. Apex anti-cheat is already crap, imagine apex's anti-cheat trying to detect cronus and strike pack abusers. I play console and it was bad a couple of months back with people using those. It's really obvious when a guy is beaming you with 0 recoil on their weapon. At least recently, playstation and xbox has made it harder to use cronus and strikepack so it's been better. i can only imagine PC. At least my theory is a lot of the controller players in PC are using those.
Most likely indeed
I literally swapped to MnK a couple years ago, I don’t what to switch back but my god!! I get destroyed by rollas
ive honestly stagnated in apex, yes, i dont play as much anymore nor did i really put that much work for it but i feel like I'm so tired of getting beamed so easily by controller players. Every one clip is sus for me cause i rarely do the same, it could be because im not that good or maybe just an input thing, eitherways, i wish i had an option to tick off being matchmaked to controller players, its just unrelateable when you see their aim.
I think it just took time for more and more people to learn how aim assist works in Apex. A lot of controller players early on used too much input and actually fight the aim assist.. people used to try and learn recoil gun patterns and pull down on the stick for example before they learned about recoil smoothing.
Just this change alone makes any controller player at least twice as good as they were before they knew it.
Then more people started to learn about how hipfiring and ADS effects your aim assist and you see a lot more people pop in and out of hip fire for the aim assist snap accuracy if they fall off target while ADS tracking.
Controller was always the better input because of aim assist but people didn’t understand how the mechanics of it in apex worked that good until later. Now a lot of people know.
how is it fair for roller players to get movement? thats like the only thing that mnk players have over them and imo its not enough
Movement does save you from getting one clipped unfortunately... Ask me how I know😭😭. Barely anyone uses advanced movement that can't be done on controller tbh. Tap strafes don't count tho
@@yourlocalhuman3526 i do movement all the time because if ur on mnk and you dont then its kind of a waste imo
i would love to try to play on Mnk but my setup is limited
Love ur videos Bro!
Good video man. Been following your content for a while. Love to see how even when you are an MnK user you still care about controller players and i think the same as a a controller player i believe both inputs should strive for equality. However, even if we make all actions possible for both inputs is not even close. This might be an fps but movement is the literal skill gap that separates good players from gods. Not to mention that aiming with a mouse is 200%more accurate than controller. I wanna wrote more but maybe no one will read this
I do my best to read every comment, appreciate ya! :)
i have played 24 years on controller. controller needs tap strafes to do better movement (yes they could implement it in some way) . the trade off should be that aim assist gets lowered to 0.2 or even 0.15. while aim assist is needed in some way on controller it doesnt have to be that strong. i have played years in cod and other shooters without any aim assist and i was still top 1% in most of them. aim on controller should be a skill with a high skill ceiling like on mnk. i made the switch to mnk a month ago but i always thought that way. the biggest problem between mnk and controller is how unbalanced it is. controller has way less movement while mnk has no assisted aim. they need to find a good middle way so they need to buff movement and nerf aim assist. some people say in apex mnk should get like 0.1 aim assist or some shit but mnk is not the problem since controllers movement is ass while aim is highly overtuned. also on controller with 100+ fps aiming is significantly easier in mid to far range. id say 0.6 aim assist on console was needed on old gen consoles that sometimes fell down to 35fps but now there is no need to make it that strong.
Great video man! I really don’t know what the resolution is for Pro players as it pertains to controller vs MNK. But as for non pro players aim assist is mainly beneficial when all things are equal and unless your a pro player or Top 100 Pred things will almost never be all equal which means you still have room for improvement to outplay and be better than a lot of controller players. People in this game only remember dying to controller players but never MNK.
(I’m a MNK player btw 13k RP peak)
Well, the fact you can tell what input you died to with 99% (i'll leave 1% for the very talanted or lucky 1 clips from MnK players that happen once in a while) accuracy says it all. Not that MnK can't 1 clip moreso the ones that make you say "f*cking aimbot". Dying to MnK = respectable, dying to a software...not really. Also, you can't remember dying to an input you hardly even see in recent times.
At pro level, obviously those guys are good players regardless. For them it's about unfairness consistency.
But for most people, the skill gap just sort of melts away at times because of AA. The average controller player is terrible, and can barely run around, but you could still watch them get 5+ kills just running straight at people close range.
The reason people remember dying to the controller players is because they know they shouldn't have. Getting one-clipped by someone who barely even knows how to move their character feels terrible. You can't always avoid a face to face fight. Like Dazs even said in a recent video, "If you're on MNK you shouldn't be playing entry fragger." That's a concerning problem.
I see where you are going, and it's a good direction. The graph comparing time/skill is a good way, but it needs to split into further groups: TTK or dmg output per minute, movement (ability to avoid bullets), and see this for close, medium and long-range splits. Then, putting these together would give a nice picture of the issue so that some median can be drawn. But the reality is, at almost every level IMO, TTK dominates for controller for close/medium range, and the ability to avoid extra bullets doesn't work on MNK because AA is too strong on readjustment, i.e. reactiveness. IMO, the only MNK dominance can be for the early hours of playing, the first 50-100 hrs of gameplay. Then, compared to the time graph, the controller keeps being above MNK, and other benefits don't help MNK as much. Just the facts. After all, Respawn and EA won't even bother to do that as their main graphs are only a player base and their engagement metrics, where controller players just are happier. AA keeps controllers engaged and generates more money. MNK leaves or switches or keeps playing and trying, but overall, from a business POV, it doesn't make sense to nerf AA, sadly...
The only way would be for EA to target the MNK market for CS/Valorant, whose player base is larger than current Apex. Even then, it doesn't guarantee they may get some decent slice of the pay from those users unless AA is reasonably nerfed or balanced (call it as you wish).
Oh, actually, just maybe, just maybe, they are considering at least some level of nerf just around the time when Arenas will come back with 3v3 or maybe even 5v5, which could somewhat be relevant to CV/Valorant type of players where MnK is the only input.
I would do anything to play mnk on console,I have 15,000 hours on controller on shooters but I absolutely suck at aiming no matter what I do
You wouldn't do better on mnk then, trust.
Consoles should add native mnk support
@@rodrigos7070they do... Just Apex doesn't, I gave mnk a go on cod back in mw19 & wz1 I had no problem with aiming
I think the problem is rotational AA. It’s literally instantly pulls when the target charges direction. Instead of it being set to 0 ms it should be set to 10 ms or 15 ms. The slowed down is a must to have cuz being precise on thump is hard. other then close range control sucks at every thing else. Peak shooting mnk wins. Looting mnk wins.sniping mnk win. Recoil control mnk win. movement mnk win. single fire weapon win. mirror strafing mnk win.close in your face fights mnk wins (because at 2m control aim assist does not work) shoot gun mnk wins.
I have a different question. What really keeps you playing Apex?
the state of modern PC FPS is so sad to see as someone who's been playing them for over 20 years.
*Apex Legends MNK has so many downsides for new, learning, or simply casual players. Almost all of my MNK friends are not inclined to learn to play controller just to be good at one game. It takes far more time to become well versed in MNK than it does with a controller but not everyone simply enjoys using a controller. I do think that the time it takes to become 'decent' alone keeps a lot of players from enjoying or playing Apex at all. A few of the most consistent arguments and complaints I've heard and shared as 'new' or 'casual' players are: (besides that controller aim assist is "OP") Its hard to track quick moving players [those pesky little octane mains], that you die in one clip in close range, and that you can't see anything beyond muzzle flash. When you hear arguments from other controller players I think they fail to understand that there is a population of MNK players that are just not good at the game AND don't get aim assist which gatekeeps them from playing at all. The aim assist that Apex has is strong enough to track (at range, with at least a little human help) pretty quick movements; with the inhuman reaction it provides, it makes one clips much more accessible at closer ranges- which is where the majority of meaningful interaction happens. I think that if Apex or the community is not willing to dull down on aim assists' affects in gameplay, then dulling down the muzzle flash will be the best thing to help MNK players by allowing them to see and react accordingly; especially considering aim assist continues to track and 'react' beyond muzzle flash. HOWEVER, I thoroughly believe that controller NEEDS the accessibility to loot while moving. I'm torn on tap strafing because there is a large meaningful skill gap there on MNK adverse to when controller had that ability and you could tap strafe with no additional input.*
Before Apex, I hardly had any opportunity to play any competitive shooter title. I've had few opportunities as a kid to enjoy the classic CODs I and II but those were both on the Playstation and I only really played zombies. I'd like to say I was average but I simply didn't have enough of the multiplayer experience to compare. Just slightly beyond that time, I've had very minimal (like 1/20 of my total 4000 hours in Apex) experience in "my new MNK market" since I've just bought my first 'official' computer. This minimal experience involved 1-2 months before the death of H1Z1 and a little bit of CSGO/PUBG. Now onto Apex, I've put in a lot of time and effort in order to become "decent" and then some to become "above average." Since 2019 when Apex first came out, obviously everyone was relatively bad at first, I've been slowly grinding up to become the player that I am today. I sit at what I think is a solid 2.1 KD and can 'easily' get Diamond assuming I'm in a good mood and motivated to play Apex at all. I say this because when I'm in a good mood I'm winning very consistently. Some days I'm going absolutely crazy, though some days I'm just completely feeding nonstop so I stop playing at all. This is all not to mention the amount of time I've put into Dota 2 since it's initial conception. Though it isn't an FPS shooter, it most definitely helped with my hand-eye coordination.
Not too long ago from today, there came a few days of consistently dying to controllers over and over. I'd die, spectate my opposing team, and see controller looters and perfect aim tracking- yada yada. I forced myself, convinced myself, and just slightly out of spite in those frustrating moments to be motivated in learning controller to the best of my ability (which is when I learn most efficiently, when I'm hyper fixated). It took me a mere two weeks in order to start winning nearly every close range fight which was not nearly as consistently possible back on MNK. Seeing my progress not only in the close range department, I started to see a match of skill in mid range as well-- not so much with sniping long range but I never really had that inclination on MNK either. Considering my progress and my current skill after *a mere two weeks time,* I made a best educated estimate that if I were to keep my motivation for controller I'd be just as good - if not, better - than my MNK counterpart in three months. Mind you, Apex Legends has been out for five years. Five years of learning MNK vs a few weeks of playing on controller-- GRANTED my previous controller experience when I was a kid.
If it wasn't for how engaging MNK seems in comparison to controller, I would have switched ages ago. And believe it or not, if it wasn't for how well and quickly I type, that probably would play a factor in me switching as well. I enjoy clicking on a keyboard more than using a joystick. All that, and add in a high skill ceiling for movement/aim on MNK provides me a reason for playing at all.
Took me 15 minutes to write all this but dang.
There’s no aim assist in Rainbow Six Siege. Mouse and Keyboard is completely dominant in R6 but on console you’re not allowed to use Mouse and Keyboard unless you’re cheating using a Xim
Cross-play is when controllers started growing in popularity
I can understand why companies are pushing cross play to allocate servers and so on, but it is a complete failure on the devs on failing to properly balance inputs that go beyond over tuning AA. It is a hard task, but there is a paper my Microsoft on crossplay out there over Quake or Unreal and introducing cross play, and there original conclusion is that it is not healthy bc mnk is just better designed for fps games. This hardware difference evolved into over tuning AA in games like Halo Infinite and X Defiant that are two others that come to mind and can be more over tuned than in Apex. Apex's aim assist consists mainly of rotational AA and the slow down or friction to help with tracking at mid to close range. I very much agree with allowing controller to have more accessibility like move while loot and event tap strafing. When you open a box the fact that your stick does nothing is crazy. I can see why they have more focus on controllers and having lower floor of entry for casuals on console, but they get the choice to play with pc unless they play with a friend. I believe inputs should be preference based in terms of design, feel, and comfort. Instead I hear it makes up for people who are mechanically lacking on mnk because they have AA to help them shoot better and make up for lack of mechanics. Hal is a great example of that for pro play.
As for Cronus, Xens, aim bots, Configs, automated movement, and so on is a whole other story. it sucks they are being exploited and are hard to detect, but cheaters as a whole are an issue and needs to be addressed more aggressively. you can search on RUclips and someone is plugging a discord or a service. I just hope one day they actually balance inputs one day instead of just toning down the AA value, sadly they won't turn it down lower bc they did do it in the first or second season and controller players were complaining so badly when they dropped it down to .3, if i can remember right off the bat, saying how they are this rank and now they can't hit a single shot. I feel like balance will come from them turning down AA values, allowing loot while moving, and also tap strafe (if you can aim, on mnk or controller its not that bad tbf) . For anyone who doesn't know controller can't tap strafe bc of the hardware limitation of the joy sticks. Joy sticks are variable resistors which carries a set value to move so it will read 1 and you will walk, while mnk's movement is read like "w, w, w, w, w, w, w, w, w", which makes us lurch and is why we can't walk without holding a button in games like CSGO. A simple fix for this would be start pushing Hall effect joysticks and translate some of the analog reads from the resistors to digital reads like how pc reads their input, but again that wont happen bc controllers are essentially built to break and have you replace them.
It’s not aim assist it’s ROTATIONAL Aim Assist back in the day we didn’t need that for us to be good at game it’s to keep the player base hooked to make it seem like they are way better then they are I know if they took away rotational aim assist more people would struggle to hit their shots if you feel like your so good at the game you’ll keep playing and if you keep playing you’ll spend money a lot of kids who kill these movement players are doing full tracking without missing a shot with less then 1000 hours on the input it’s crazy controller isn’t busted they need aim assist it’s a fact I used to play on roller years ago but nowadays it’s just crazy OP that’s why so many pros are switching that right there should let you know it all + all the bugs crap servers 20 tic rate cheaters out the wazoo it’s crazy the Devs need to do better that’s a fact it’s all a cash grab to them
Let me get this straight think mouse and keyboard or 100% not to get banned, you as a casual controller player one percent of the players are not using a corona Zen. But had a pc if you have any device with on your computer on your monitor that was a zen at the same time they use in mod on the settings for computer nine times out of 10. They are really cheating controller players never aim a certain way, but yes, they got a script from aim bot buying hacking etc I’m has a casual player why tf need cheating for the money but at same time pc players they going cheating ass off anyway no reason cheating at any game 3:12 for FPS GAME
Personally i think rotational aim assist needs to be changed/removed for pc. Having a computer do the reaction for you is not ok. The slow down bubble imo is fine although it does mess with gun recoil. Console players are a different subject entirely. I think moving while looting should be required to give to controller players.
It's very simple: AA is unfair.
It would be cool if they had separate lobbies.
I stopped solos after one day just because in 8 of 10 games you get sprayed down by a roller player. Idc if I get matched with AA abusers but at least use SBMM so average players like me can actually enjoy the game. I dont want to play with ppl who are clearly above diamond skill level and have additonally AA.
Yes, I know that the majority of the playberbase is on console or roller and thats why I say at least give us SBMM back especially on solos coz your rank doesnt get affected on this (which was the major point of the SBMM hate). So at least give me similiar skilled roller players based on their K/D, winrate etc. or just let me play with in only MnK lobbies. Im pretty sure many ppl would wait 40-60 secs just for an input based/MnK lobby
If you're not wall bouncing and tap strafing, we're not playing the same game.
I used to wall bounce consistently when I used to play on console. Also superglides were far easier.
@@zsideswapper6718 hitting wall bounces is cute but unless coupled with a tap strafe beforehand it's just a cool trick to show your other controller friends.
Doing both enables movement that is game changing.
I feel like they should put 60 fps console aim assist at 0.4, and put 120 fps console/pc controller at 0.35 but they add moving while looting and tap strafing to controller through accessible inputs that you can adjust in the settings. Right now I play on console at 60 fps with 0.4 aim assist because im trying to get used to the lower aim assist for when I switch to 120 fps soon and I can say for certainty that 0.6 aim assist is way too much for any game and I feel like console players never really get better or could be even better if they weren't used to such strong aim assist. Obviously console and controller needs some aim assist because we are using our thumbs to aim after all, but I and several other console players get way too used to having your cursor placed on the target for you whenever your aim is in their general proximity. It grants a very unconscious way of aiming which greatly hinders improvement if you intend to upgrade and be lowered to 0.4
Don't forget Steam Deck user with gyro controls.
totally agree TELL IT TO RESPWAN WE NEED BALANCE
Do you think maybe giving M&k a small amount of aim assist could help balance things?
I would hate that. Mnk aim transfer over games. That's why good mnk players are proud of it. AA would ruin this.
I have to disagree that aim assist can only be used at the top of the skill ceiling, all players are getting benefit using aim assist 100%. Where it needs to be nerfed IMO is hip fire tracking, that's it. Keep similar strength and qualities going into ADS (during transition) and in ADS. I think it unfairly allows tracking in close range fights that would normally be a large skill to develop and needs to be developed on KB+M.
I have played since season 5. This season i left the game finally. Because they added kill cam and i realized the stuaiton finally. Eveyone beaming me with 0 MS reaction time. AA is crazy op and it is so annoyng. Grinding is so meaningless in this stuation. It catches even the tap strafe ör other movements like wall jump or slide jump etc.
Theres no solution at this point cuz respawn knows that they F*ck up at not nerf controller before it gets extremely OP, now at least 80% of the player base is playing on controller and we all know that learn to play on MNK from 0, tooks months and even years.
Nerf controller = killing at least the casual player base...
Did you seriously just posit "should aim assist be buffed"?
Are you fn kidding me it shouldnt exist whatsoever
Lobbies need to be split. The least they can do is protect their mnk playerbase from cronus etc...
District is a crybaby and you actually explain with facts. Only reason I can learn from your tips and not the “10x pred pro teacher” or whatever he calls himself
i dont hate crossplay, but for the sake of being competitive and its integritty... its imho not possible atm to make it fair. we can make it balanced, but not fair. what i mean by that is that lets say both inputs had an overall comparable playerbase in all the ranks. they would win as much, lose as much... etc. a coin flip is balanced. but is it rly fair? in a game like apex, purely losing due to ur input, or having a worse performance purely due to input shouldnt be the case if u ask me. i dont think there should be pros and cons for each input for it to be fair. u shouldnt have a benefit or a disposition for being on one over the other. that to me, doesnt belong in a competitive shooter like this. a shooter like this... its a game where ur constantly putting in inputs, and they matter SO SO much for the outcome.
a game more akin to rocket league i wouldnt be as mad at. there isnt any support given to either input, tho i do believe controller is better for that game overall, but thats because the game is just more designed for it. it makes sense, its more intuitive, and just works better there. on shooters, controllers are given aa, because they are objectively worse for most of the game, which is moving and shooting. what annoys be, is that theres even a possibility of controller being better, even if its just in certain situations. the best performing input should always be the best choice. i wouldnt mind crossplay that much if it was clear that controller was just worse. it could be close, but it should obviously be the worse choice. mnk players get mad when facing controller players not because they are better, they get mad when they lose BECAUSE the controller player is given free assist baked into the game. why isnt there aim assist for mnk aswell? think we all know why. idk why its so hard for many ppl to accept that controller just is worse at shooters (or rather precision).
realistically, i think the solution is segeragation (and ofc, have crossplay as an option for those that dont mind), or just making it so that its CLEAR that mnk is the better choice. i would love for there to be a world where they can both coexist without issues, but because the 2 inputs are inherently VERY different with one having analog sticks and the other one being rather binary... its unlikely to happen. from a design pov, they are 2 extremely different sets of inputs. ones a hammer, ones a screwdriver, they are both meant to get some sort of metal rod into a material, but they do it so very differently u wont have the same results even if u try to change how the results end up.
tldr, there shouldnt be situations in any competitive game where u win because of getting assist from the game or other similar sources when the enemy doesnt get the same. its not fair. i think its fine to win because ur just objectively better. if u beat someone on controller because ur on mnk when mnk is naturally (with no assist) thats fine. if u beat someone on mnk when ur on controller because its for said game the objectively better input (again with no assist) thats fine. where i start to have problems with it is if ur beating someone else because of ur input choice due to having assistance. i dont think it ever will be fair for the forseeable future. i think segeragation is the play, and if not controllers should be worse, cus they literally are.
Yes, ive introduced a friend of mine to apex and he's as good if not better at me when shooting other players in just a week. I have around 1k+ total apex hours througout the seasons and the fact that a 1 week old controller player(on console) is similar if not better than me in shooting is crazy for a shooter fps game. Theres also the pisspoor matchmaking where we verse preds with 10k+ kill almost every game and the occasional(more like frequent since dont know if theyre just controller players) cheaters(on pc) and almost all people are smurf cements the MnK as a dead input for me. I have stopped playing it on my on and only play it if my friend invites me to play.
I'm only playing this season because i bought the pass once completed I'm done with Apex. I'm not switching to controller, since the release of this season i have already started to play other games.
In my opinion aim assist it self isnt even the biggest issue its a combination of screen shake on flesh damage and visual cluter
Screen shake is a problem not only because it works against the consept of higher zoom levels but also because its a mechanic that exist to punish people out off position (in zone or still fighting despite beeing cracked)
1 part is how does it work against m&k more then roller
-despite existing on BOTH INPUTS m&k players get the worst treatmant due to screen shake not ajusting for higher zoom kevels what i meen by that is lets say im useing a 3x on my flatline and my roller friend is useing a 1x/iron sight
If he gets hit on flesh while scoped in his screen shakes for 10 pixles what translates to 5 meters of in game movemant away from target
If i scope in my 3x i move same 10 pixels BUT that translate to 15 meters of in game movemant and thats the first problem that game it self punishes someome for useing a ar/marksmen/snipe if they go above 2x zoom level
2. part of this is there isnt ami assist on sniper and very litle on 3 or 4x scope which make roller players not even considere it an oprion unless playing burst/singlefire wepons that doenst get used ads in closerange
3. This is ONLY MY GUESS but i feel like aim assist slow down also negates part off the screen shake because the camera acnt flick away as fast it eather flicks less because teh initial movemant is eaten by slow down of the imer for how long you are offcenter runs out before it gets to savere and combined with them useing a 1/2 x that has less mo movemant of the camera they are steady and smooth despite fighting in zone or at 30 hp
The way to fix this is
A) remove the elemental screen shake (zone, lava or other natural sorce of damge and wildlife) true a setting, intirelly or make the stocks better becuse "large aim drift reduction" my ass
B) make a gold stock that ignores all forms of screen shake and gut the compatitivness off your game becuse there are only 5 per match
C) make a r5 level where people have infinate hp and are constly on fire to trigger screen shake and learn to ovecome it becuse thats all we can do
I think that aim assist is a band aid solution to a hardware problem that is controllers are NOT built to keep up with modern titles. Outside of aim assist, everything on a controller in a cross input PVP environment is worse. Buttons often do 2-3 different things that often conflict, buttons are placed in a way that outside of triggers, ALL of them are to be used with the thumbs, and thumb sticks are largely incapable of precision in comparison to a mouse.
I actually think that gaming needs to look at the hardware of the controller itself, and move to something that requires less assistance to begin with, while still remaining familiar enough to players. Retaining the thumbstick for movement while having a different mechanism control the camera. There's a video on here where this guy replaces his thumbstick with a ball that can be rotated from the front and back, allowing for greater precision AND the ability to access other buttons without having to sacrifice camera movement. I think fps gaming needs something like that in order to move forward from this aim assist situation.
REMOVE AIM SMOOTHING. problem fixed. a gun will still recoil when you are moving in real life. There is no reason to have aim smoothing.
Even if they never remove /buff aim assist, I'm gonna stick to m&k, who wants a bot to correct their aim, I prefer apex over other shooters for high ttk and there is satisfaction in downing an opponent without aim assist hitting each and every bullet accurately and one clipping them. It's rare to one clip on m&k but when it happens it's me hitting that and it's worth it
What about ALGS being absolutely dominated by Reject Winnity which is a full mnk team? :)
Personally ik how to play both inputs, but overall i have way more experience on roller. Aim assist is not that crazy in my opinion, it definitly has its moments and for sure it makes controller very strong up close, but its not as if it doesnt take skill to use. People arguing against controllers are acting as if when you pick a controller up, you you just lock on to every target you see intantly missing no shots. As someone who plays on both inputs though, I feel you can do way more on mnk than roller overall, people seem to just be picking up roller more most likely because of close range advantage and how easy it is to aim. Personally, though, I love both inputs and like to switch it up from time as it adds a new feel to the game. Love your content Dazs keep up the good work, man❤
BUFF CONTROLLER, NERF AIM ASSIST
Just try the settings adam showed in his highly viral video and you know aim assist is the problem. What a dump video. The average player uses no custom settings at all but if they do its more than just unfair in favor for roller.
Bro, I don't wanna be overly negative and I have nothing against your channel/content usually. But why release such a nothingburger of a video. You added pretty much nothing new, interesting or constructive to the conversation with this. If anything you even downplayed the issue, considering that you kept questioning some of the disadvantages of mnk. Like, we all know it's a inferior to controller currently (and has been for a while). If you wanted to explore actual meaningful solutions that could be implemented, you could've talked about the aspects of gyro-aim or possible changes to mnk to keep up (Halo added a certain amount of aim assist for example). If you didn't have the ambition to offer any solutions, than the least you could've done is present the issue in a more appropriate complexity instead of those graphs. The way it stands, this video is pretty much just clickbait to hone in on an popular issue.
You may disagree, but compiled each of those topics. Added my own thoughts on what needs the most attention and provided my own constructive feedback to the conversation.
Made this video because was confident there is currently a problem to discuss it.
@@Dazs Oh, a problem there is. You just didn't discuss it. Look, obviously you put some work into the video and I am sure you had good intentions. But for anyone active in the Apex community, there's not going to be much new/interesting stuff to get out of your "discussion" of the topic. You barely explored the actual implications of the entire balance-debate. You were mostly just fence-sitting. I don't wanna be an ass'ole here, and I get it's also hard to truly share your thoughts when there's an image that you have to maintain. But it's genuinely the way I feel about the video.
@BruceWayne-wh4of no imagine to uphold, genuinely felt we need
To tackle this in layers. With tackling cheating such as cronus we can see real data. I mentioned each part to tackle to get to a root cause. That is the bigger discussion no one is hitting on.
We need the casuals to hear all this. Aim assist higher up is a problem. Don’t think anyone has a clear solve for it. Because you hit AA too hard the casuals who struggle are impacted.
Why the cheaters is my biggest focus here in skewing data. Companies need
To stop use of these products.
Then also a give and a take. Give movement to controller, but we can ask what aim assist is too much or too little.
If we discover AA is only strong in a small percentage, I can live with it. Because those genuinely put in the time.
But I personally need to know the playing field is equal. Even in the comment section of this video one person said they use cronus zen because they want to equal the playing field (aka cheat).
Gotta deal with wallers and aim botters to. I look at the problem as one solution at a time.
@@Dazs Idk, stuff like "cheating is skewing the data" is a bit weak of an argument, when there's a whole pro-scene which should technically be 100% cheater-free. This is the pool of players from where you can get data. Obviously not representative of the entire playerbase, but a good start since it provides exact analytics for potential balancing. I agree that casuals need to hear this, but if I was a casual that just watched this video, there wouldn't really be a main take-away point for me. I probably wouldn't even understand the core difference that aim assist makes in a fight (you could've talked about the fact that there are 3 different types of aim assist you gain on roller, and also a main reason why every pro gravitates towards playing 4-3 linear as a sens). Most casuals don't even get the difference between rotational aim assist and "normal" aim assist. They don't understand their own input basically, and therefore don't improve / don't experience the problems that more experienced, high-skilled players will. This is all stuff you could've mentioned, when initially laying out the issue imho. Maybe food for thought, if you plan on making a follow-up video to discuss the issue in a more detailed way.
I want to, but I am confident the cheater situation is way worse than we realize. I know for a fact that in higher tier lobbies and amount from what I have heard and seen is the bigger problem. I get what you are saying. But what if that stat is just not as bad if we could have better quality lobbies? That is why I put my stance on that.
Goes back to what I said before. The pros get 4-3 linear nerfed. But we realize it was just a small group. We did have a 3 stack MnK team win. But from the issues in lobbies, no casual picks up 4-3 linear and just farms. I have played these pros in LAN and other situations. They are NOT this good. So its why I am harping on it.
Why I mentioned Cronus Zen's being sold out, why I hit on Wallers & Aimbots. I seen so many videos exposing DMA hacks and people saying the problem is so large. So I want to know its being addressed before I can make valid claims on balancing (Which yes do need to happen).
Also why I intro'd with balancing movement. Also why I mentioned if we cleaned up other areas like visual clutter.
I don't want to ruin the game, but if every variable is tackled, then the tweaks to can be perfected.
Again, I do get what you are saying. But I will not have a controller player complain they got "nerfed" when all other variables were tackled. When forming an argument I want to form a strong defense so there is absolutely no counter argument.
No catering, I want the issue forever resolved and put to bed. I don't care of people hate me for my approach. This is how I would tackle the situation. Its an option of how to tackle it. Same as you proposed, why I said its not wrong.
Do appreciate the back and forth though on this. Legit, when things change, then follow up video will come. Always done that. I don't always make videos like this. But once a month or so, we hit on something that has to be discussed. Will be back to my guide content that I enjoy immensely more making. :)
since i play on ps5 i started to use the sentinal with the car its such a good combo it makes me win anything long close the 70 raw dmg is too good if you can close the gap and since its a sniper you can fight long range ez pz
Im trash at this game, gold for life on console. MnK players would destroy me. Maybe for high level play controller is better, cause yall pros play for hours unending. But for us low tier players MnK is too hard to beat with a controller.
what if there was just no aim assist? i would love to see a sbs comparison of a roller player with and without it
Some games have no AA but think on Apex they would fall behind quickly.