I'd like to see you review Rel high end models just for curiousity. I mean the no 31 or 32. Your data based style of reviewing subwoofers is the best way I know of. Thanks!
I am somewhat surprised you have not reviewed more Rel subwoofers. Many serious audio enthusiasts swear by their first born child that they are the best subs they have ever listened to and I have seen these in MANY high end set ups that want to include subs in their system. From what people have told me (I've never heard them myself, they are quite rare outside of rich enthusiast homes and only ultra high end boutique audio stores have them for demo) They have a more balanced and refined sound compared to the "boom boom" you get from SVS or Monoprice. They are often much more expensive and don't "spec" well dollar for dollar compared to SVS or Monoprice or even Klipsch, KEF, or JL.
Av Gear is far less expensive in the good old USA even more so if its a American brand l try following a lot American RUclipsrs but they most only showcase brands that are available over there so l lose interest I've got 2 Rels in my av room the 1508 and the T9i Red/carbon edition of which l totally love
The fact that they don't use DSP is actually big plus - no one knows what SVS and other DSP subs do the input signal, but I'm pretty sure you can make crazy good specs out of a crappy driver using DSP easily and sell the specs.
Looking from 10 to 20 Hz, it looks like a 22 dB per octave roll-off, so it's steeper than an optimal 12dB roll-off, probably owing to the enclosure being slightly too small, but it gives them the advantage of higher power-handling and less risk of bottoming out.
Hi, I am a Lyngdorf MP-40 owner, not a Rel owner, and I appreciate a company that supplies a sub without an internal DSP. I would prefer to use the DSP in my processor, and not have competing DSPs!
That makes no sense. Internal DSP is for EQ shaping and limiting the sub from bad behavior when being overdriven. Much different application than the DSP Room Correction in your processor.
@@Audioholics Fair point, my comment was based more from a room correction point of view. However, wouldn’t in room response play a bigger role in sub response anyway?
Hi Mike, i am also considering Lyngdorf mp-40. But i have not audition it, due to no dealer. If you compare it to trinnov, storm audio or datasat(16 channel models) how is the sound character . Room perfect seems to be one of the best but , i have never heard so i would appreciate if you can give some feedback about it.
@@Lutfui Hi, I can’t compare the MP-40 to the other processors you mentioned, because I never had a chance to audition the other processors. However, I will say that I am very happy with my MP-40 and Room Perfect works extremely well for both music and movies. The system is very stable and reliable, thus far! I am currently using a vintage Aragon 8008 to drive a pair of Aerial Acoustic 10Ts, along with an Aerial Acoustic CC3 (center) and SW12 (sub). A few things to point out - read the manual before running Room Perfect and follow Lyngdorf’s setup recommendations precisely, use custom curves to modify the bass to your preference, and run Room Perfect the minimal amount of positions (not more). I can honestly say that my system is the best it has ever sounded due to my Lyngdorf upgrade.
Thanks for the review and all the time you put into them both on RUclips and on the website, it made it a lot easier for me to make up my mind, and purchase this Sub over the SVS and others! I am glad I did it's amazing coming from having two ten's to the REL 1510 is night and day. It blends perfectly with my Focal Chora 816s its as if they have subs built into them vs before where I could never get the two tens to blend as if they where part of my speakers (at the level I wanted them too). no more boom, boom sound just rich, blended, impactful bass that compresses my hole room. Yes the REL is is twice the price of my two tens, "one RSL speed woofer and one martin logan dynamo 600" witch are not bad subs by any means. In my opinion once you have this level of performance, the REL 1510 delivers you can never go back.
For those who don't know the first 2 numbers in the HT series is driver size and the last 2 numbers is the wattage. For example 1508 15 inch 800 watts, 1003 10 inch 300 watts, etc.
I'm currently looking for a powerful 15" sub for my home theater that can dig down deep effortlessly and sound articulate doing it. It would be used for 50/50 for movies/music. Leaning towards rythmik, but open to other subs. 12 by 15 room with partially open side to kitchen.
trust your judgment. get a Rythmik FV15, then save up and then get a second one. or in a relatively small space like yours, you’d be fine with a pair of FV12s. i first looked into Rythmik in 2011 but got cold feet because i was still chasing SPL. finally a couple weeks ago i got the F12 pair i’ve needed the whole time. Hsu, SVS, PSA, they all make excellent subwoofers, but Rythmik are on a different level. don’t waste time, like i did
Love how Gene addresses “the Elephant” in the room; (Rel’s preferred line level connection!) Kinda surprised Gene isn’t more knowledgeable about Rel subs. Great review guys, on a long awaited multi-purpose sun, for sure. Two Rel 1205 MK II or one predator?
Can't believe you just asked that, I've been on a journey to try and figure this out. I've heard the MK II is a nice improvement from the original 1205. I'll be upgrading from the 1205 soon. Any words of wisdom before I spend way more money than my wife approves of?
I did one of each. I went with the rel 3d audio system to fill in the higher bass frequencies Since I wanted a rich sounding full range system. I've always felt like there was a big hole in the audio causing me to miss out on the magic. I have a 1510 for the LFE and mains, a 9x for the center channel, and a 1205 for the rear LFE and rear mains. I should have it all set up by the end of the month.
@@westensanchez9483let me know how it goes👍. I've been playing around with my system and can't figure out what I like best. I have 3 rel t9i, 2 paradigm sub 1s. I just put in a near field 21 inch kraken sub DIY. At the moment I don't have the rels in my system. I have the paradigm subs at the front and the 21inch near field. The impact is amazing but I feel like I'm missing something without the rels on the high level. I think it has to do with increasing the volume on the rels. I was getting better low end bass with my paradigm at the rear. So I might move them back and run rel high level at the front. See how that goes.
@@benfits8768 the t9 sounds way better than the predator for anything over 80 hertz in my opinion. It's just on another level as far as blending in those higher bass frequencies. The predators are amazing below that threshold and for room shaking bass.
I would be interested to see you review REL's 3-d theater where all the speakers are underpinned with subs. John Hunter seems like a knowledgeable person and there's alot of great reviews on their subs. They can't all be wrong, can they? I'll be watching out for that 3-d review for REL
REL did a great job engineering a entry level subs affordable for the beginner home theater student, that doesn't have to pay so much we're not referring to high end powered subs by REL.
A while back I auditioned a pair each of REL HT1205s and SVS SB3000s. The RELs were ultimately pretty underwhelming by comparison. The SVS are a bit more expensive, but they look, feel and sound like a completely different class of equipment. The HT1205 feels like cheap furniture VS professional equipment with the SB3000. I haven't seen a 1510 in person, but it had better be a lot more than just a bigger version, for the price difference. All that said, I respect REL's choice not to go with DSP. I kept fiddling with the SVS and I was always paranoid about phase, knowing the DSP would have to add some kind of delay. At least with the RELs, I would just plug them in, set the levels and start listening.
@@Audioholics Ah, it bears mentioning that I'm just running two channel and like to stack my tower speakers on top of my subs. Say what you will, but I like the big sound of the speakers above ear level. I also have pretty limited space and as luck would have it, the bass comes into focus very well at my listening position. Bottom line though, I don't really want any delay on the subs.
The 1510 is beautiful. The carbon fiber woofer glistens and looks great with the polished top. It's also a beast to move. It's big and it feels like it's made out of lead.
Love the in-depth reviews. Would certainly help if you guys used some type of pointer when showing the chart results so that it earlier to follow what you are referring to...for us newbies. And the numbers are not legible on the computer screen...and I'm using a 27 inch MAC. Thanks again for the info/review.
Some time ago Matthew Poes did a video on the Geddes approach where there isn’t a crossover point. Presumably Rel’s high level input gives you more scope to do that. Can you confirm that what you’re saying is the Geddes approach is now considered out of date? Thanks
As I recall, Geddes recommends no high pass filter on the main speaker, if you have the ability to calibrate the system in that manner. But this is not an absolute rule. The point is to get as many points of low-frequency emission in the room as possible which should average out into a flatter response, and that isn't a bad idea, so his approach definitely isn't considered out of date.
@@jameslarson2277 Thank you James - that was my understanding too which is why although I agree that Rel have been a bit slow on the uptake of DSP, I was surprised when Gene sort of criticised Rel for providing high level inputs in conjunction with a filter as connection options and said this was outdated. If used with AV amps with typical (basic) bass management and you want the low end frequencies to be reproduced by both mains and sub(s) as Geddes suggests, then the high level input surely would be the way to implement that, setting mains to large, taking a feed from them for the sub(s) and also using the low level input for the LFE signal.
@@Audioholics Totally agree. I use multi-sub with dsp and EQ on my 2-channel and the result is a seat to seat variation across my sofa's listening positions of +/-2dB from 20Hz to well beyond 200Hz. However, typical AVRs only have a crossover, not a separate HP and LP filters to apply to mains and subs. If your viewers want to try overlapping subs and mains, the only way I can see to do this is by using a sub(s)’s HL inputs rather than their AVR’s LFE out. Set mains to large so they get all low frequencies, set the AVR to ‘no sub’ so everything is sent to the mains, take a HL feed to the sub and use sub LP filters. Overlap achieved! The only thing you can’t do is time align via the processor so you’d need to do that via the Phase nob I suppose but as Matthew says we’re hearing the room more than the direct sound in this range and our ears are forgiving of timing issues at the low levels. Or is there (without addition dsp units) a better, less outdated way?
Has audioholics not reviewed the t7x or t5x? Or the rythmik f12 variants? I’m a 2 channel guy with 5% home theater usage. I was thinking dual RSL speedwoofer 10s mk2, dual rel t7x, or dual rythmik f12’s. I’ve got Maggie 1.7i’s and Anthem STR integrated with arc room correction.
Is there any reason to get this REL instead of the Arendal 1723? In fact for a medium size room , wouldn’t even something like the Arendal 1961 1S be better?
My dudes, I am about to order XLR cables from pre to power amps. Does it really matter how long they are? Like in recording situations, they go up to a 100 meters... I want them longer, i.e. 8-10 meters, so I can have the pre and sources next to the listening position, if that is what I end up deciding, and I don't want to buy short, only to buy a longer pair a few weeks later... what say you?
QQ: Rel recommends stacking their subs. You recommend spreading them out in the corners. Pro’s and con’s of either? Arendal subs also recommend stacking vertically
Stacking gives more gain due to colocation, but you lose the benefits of modal distribution. If you care only about 1 or 2 seats, it's fine. If you care about all your seats, don't stack, distribute.
@@Audioholics nice explanation Gene!! What if you do both? Stack AND put them in 4 corners, so have 8 or 12 subs (and stack them 2 or 3 high). Is that the ultimate way Gene? Apart from budget issues, any cons to this approach? Or is it at this point, it’s not worth the cost 💲? Please do give us your insights 🤓
Hello, being that you both have heard the JTR RS1, how would you compare the sound quality vs the REL 1510? I know the JTR would smash it with output and extension, but how do they compare sound wise? I have owned a JTR ported sub and I think it was the best sounding ported sub I have ever owned personally. However, I have never heard their sealed offerings.
In an attempt to explain the unexplained, I have some hypothesis on why high level inputs could* have benefits. My first thought is that the voltage sag between the amplifier’s output capabilities and the speaker’s impedance profile, is then textured into the signal the sub gets. This phenomenon of voltage sag is very apparent with tube amplifiers, and is called “tube sag”. I do believe if you have a super duper amplifier, you should have stable voltage, but in practice the impedance dips of speakers can cause some amplifiers to run out of power and loose some of their zip. A non-linear behavior, which may be captured and mirrored by using the high level input as the signal source, as any sag between the amplifier and speaker is then also textured into the sub’s signal. So the sub sags like the speakers, with the speakers, and maybe that’s mellifluous. Other thoughts are that strong signals, like a high level input, will reject more noise in the ratios of signal strength to noise strength. Maybe a case for cable lifters if the room is on a second level with wiring in the floor/ceiling. An RCA cable may pickup some 60hz hum if it’s by electrical wiring, maybe high level inputs do better in that regard. I can imagine an apartment dweller above a ceiling fan may benefit from high level inputs, lifters, or XLR cables. Even just outlets in the walls, the whole length of the wall has wiring in it for the outlet, it’s quite common to hide sub signal cables by tucking them right up against the wall, running parallel to 60hz mains. I could see being quite relevant especially over long runs or if the outlet is in use. (It may be in use powering the sub, or a mood light or whatever) I believe XLR would be great to resolve that type of interference, but maybe if the choice is just between high level inputs and RCA’s the high level inputs are more resilient because of their relative signal strength to the strength of the interference. This notion echoed in many interesting forum debates of whether it’s better to have long speaker cables, or long signal cables. Last thought is that maybe the digital domain adjustments requires digital sampling which would digitize an otherwise analog signal. Maybe even with noise or distortion added too. Perhaps the soul of the music is lost like when someone takes your picture. The advantage could be as simple as the one we see when putting a receiver in pure-direct mode to bypass dsp. In my experience, I have heard quite a notable difference in pure-direct modes, mostly anecdotal experiences with older budget compromised equipment which may no longer be relevant observations in the modern context of high performance. Maybe it’s something to do with pre-out signal quality vs speaker level output quality. Just some thoughts, curious what other people may think.
So my 1508 started making a buzzing sound so I contacted REL and since the 1508 is discontinued, they sent me a 1510 amplifier instead. I was honestly surprised but pretty excited at the same time. I just dropped it into my 1508 and it is definitely louder. I don’t think it’s worth the upgrade but you could get it if you wanted if you know what I mean…
surely as an audioholics viewer you know "fast subs" are more a myth than anything else and as long as group delay performance is below threshold of audability the only issue with your sub is the integration, which is solely the owner's responsibility.
>Smart & simple review/sub - $1900 respectable quality driver *REL acclaimed to be 'fast & tight" -options exist to drive external with AV sub-out can be applied or maybe also properly with DSP solution like DEQ2496 if in AES/SPDIF chain only to achieve some aphile level.. no brainer if on a budget, gr8review!
I listened to the 1508 predetor back to back with an SVS PB3000 and it wasn't even a contest especially for music, the SVS sounded like a boomy mess in comparison.
I haven't heard the SVS PB3000 (or any other of their ported subs as I've never been in the market for ported ones) but seeing how their sealed Ultras aren't boomy at all it doesn't seem unlikely that a significant part of your issue came from comparing a sealed sub to a ported one.
Yes, they blend nicely together. That's what I have now until I have enough to upgrade my other 1508. The 1510 has more midbass from 60 to 110hz and slightly more from 20-30hz. The 1510 is a bit punchier as well but yeah they blend nice.
It's nice having a sub without DSP. KISS is the name of the game, not everyone wants to be tinkering for minute improvement. This thing that Everything needs DSP is nonsense. Home theater is the new audiophiles.
@@Audioholics and that is my point. Home theater enthusiast are the new audiophiles, super argumentative, annoying thinking they know better than everyone else. It's a shame. I used to love HT cause ppl just love their rigs and like sharing it but now it's a pissing contest.
@@wezzman1 A modern automatic IS better than a traditional manual at the job of being a transmission. You can prefer the manual (as I do) for your own reasons, but to believe they are equals in their intended function is a delusion. The trick is not trying to argue that a preference is better or equal...unless it can be proven of course. You don't NEED DSP but not having it is also not a better outcome choice because of that.
It would be interesting to see how this would compare to a Hsu VTF3mk5, which IMO is the benchmark for this category, at whatever price (half in this case.) BTW, it’s pronounced “shoo”, no affiliation. But they’ve been putting a smile on my face for thirty years now.
You guys probably already know, bit your sound was clipping pretty bad on this video. Also, how can you mention Rythmik, HSU, and SVS, but not mention PSA. You guys need to squash your beef with Power Sound Audio.
Hi there ive had the HT1508 for a little while now £1200 GBP its now retailing at £1000 so to go buy a HT1510 at £1900/£2200 sorry too much money for too little of a upgrade....the ht1508...side note you American guys need to check out kit that aint got a American....name on it
Thank you Gene and James 👏🏼👍🏼 It’s been reassuring to hear about this model REL Because I purchased two of these in December 10th 2022 And unfortunately Friday last week one of them crashed 💩🥴 😣 I immediately got in touch with the store from whom I purchased them from. They asked me to check the two fuses one in the plug and one on the unit just wear. The three pin plug goes into and both fuses are okay so they asked me to bring the unit back to the store so it can be sent off to Rel Not a happy bunny about this I dropped the HT 1510 predator two off at the store yesterday so we shall see what will happen about it, Touch wood 🪵 it’s has a 3 year warranty 🙏 🏴
I don't like snake oil and Rel walks the line. I can do without all the marketing bluster considering its average performance for its size and construction. Yeah its not screwed up but it's not special.
The problem is you can't just look at output. There's what I call the "unmeasureables", things like punch, speed, and dynamics. These are things you can't measure in a graph but REL excels at. This is coming from somebody who has owned many brands including REL, PSA, SVS, HSU, and more. Yes, the REL doesn't dig quite as deep as other brands, but the REL's are also cleaner, faster, and punchier than most other subs.
Still rockin my 18" Dayton Audio Ultimax, still just loving it! When we/you start talking about $10k subs, just saying, I'm gone! Don't car if it's made of pure GOLD, it ain't worth the numbers by the numbers..... My real money has to do real work, I have yet to beat my ultimax for less or more. Get a good speaker to start with, build a good box, drive it your way and tune it up. Then turn your nose up when somebody thinks they can ask 10K for a lesser thing..... Cheers 🍻
Those 18" Ultimax subs are beasts. Do you run them sealed or ported? And do you use dsp to correct the response? I use the Dayton RSS315 HFA sealed without any adjustment (yet) and I am very happy
@@Pentenfi: I only use sealed boxes, I can't stand port noise. I have my sub in a 4 cubic foot sealed enclosure and I do use some EQ on it. This thing really does move the earth. Cheers 🍻
Unfortunately, not everyone can build an enclosure(me)and tune it properly. Some people can but don't have the time. Yes, building your own subs is the way to go if you have the skills, but most people obviously prefer the convenience and Aesthetics of buying a unit already built and tested.
@@dextermorgan1: Sure, no contest. To each their own of coarse, but when we start talking thousands of $$$ for a little baby 10 incher, it's just time to build. Even if you had to pay a carpenter or a cabinet maker to build it for you, you'd still be WAY ahead of the game with a better product at a fraction of the cost. Tuning is easy enough, there are hundreds of videos on that. You can even get prefab kits now all over the place to make it super easy to build. But to each their own. Cheers 🍻
@@PumpUptheJam81 Well it's an HSU vtf2 mk4 I've had for a few years now and it sounds utterly fantastic. I also run HSU subs in my dedicated home theater. I can assure you set up properly they are very accurate very smooth not boomy and have plenty of output and plenty of slam and they dig plenty deep.
@@kevinwest1607 HSU are amazing subs. I agree. I am simply curious if you have heard the REL before to compare. To be honest, I am a bit fatigued with all of the internet gossip on the forums. I ended up with a PSA 18” sealed unit and it was the most underwhelming subwoofer purchase ever. So I am very skeptical of spec driven research these days. HSU is on my radar (dual units and sealed) or an SVS offering if the resolution is there. I am not into muddy bass, and I already have a monolith 13 which is more than enough SPL but its missing something I cannot quite put my finger on.
@@kevinwest1607 It is integrated well to my ear. What I am after is that certain “voice” or sound signature. One that is not too heavy, almost like a pro-driver with paper cone. I tried the psa in pursuit of that sound signature but it did not work out. The only subs that seem to have this signature (according to legend) are the REL offerings. I have yet to demo one though. Either way it’s a fun hobby but there is no shortage on BS on the forums and you tube comments. I feel that people should hold back on making blanket remarks on a piece of a equipment if they have never actually used it in their own space.
I'd like to see you review Rel high end models just for curiousity. I mean the no 31 or 32. Your data based style of reviewing subwoofers is the best way I know of. Thanks!
I am somewhat surprised you have not reviewed more Rel subwoofers. Many serious audio enthusiasts swear by their first born child that they are the best subs they have ever listened to and I have seen these in MANY high end set ups that want to include subs in their system. From what people have told me (I've never heard them myself, they are quite rare outside of rich enthusiast homes and only ultra high end boutique audio stores have them for demo) They have a more balanced and refined sound compared to the "boom boom" you get from SVS or Monoprice. They are often much more expensive and don't "spec" well dollar for dollar compared to SVS or Monoprice or even Klipsch, KEF, or JL.
Av Gear is far less expensive in the good old USA even more so if its a American brand l try following a lot American RUclipsrs but they most only showcase brands that are available over there so l lose interest I've got 2 Rels in my av room the 1508 and the T9i Red/carbon edition of which l totally love
The fact that they don't use DSP is actually big plus - no one knows what SVS and other DSP subs do the input signal, but I'm pretty sure you can make crazy good specs out of a crappy driver using DSP easily and sell the specs.
have you taken a long look at the drivers inside SVS systems, and comparably priced RELs?
Looking from 10 to 20 Hz, it looks like a 22 dB per octave roll-off, so it's steeper than an optimal 12dB roll-off, probably owing to the enclosure being slightly too small, but it gives them the advantage of higher power-handling and less risk of bottoming out.
Hi, I am a Lyngdorf MP-40 owner, not a Rel owner, and I appreciate a company that supplies a sub without an internal DSP. I would prefer to use the DSP in my processor, and not have competing DSPs!
That makes no sense. Internal DSP is for EQ shaping and limiting the sub from bad behavior when being overdriven. Much different application than the DSP Room Correction in your processor.
@@Audioholics Fair point, my comment was based more from a room correction point of view. However, wouldn’t in room response play a bigger role in sub response anyway?
Hi Mike, i am also considering Lyngdorf mp-40. But i have not audition it, due to no dealer. If you compare it to trinnov, storm audio or datasat(16 channel models) how is the sound character . Room perfect seems to be one of the best but , i have never heard so i would appreciate if you can give some feedback about it.
@@Lutfui Hi, I can’t compare the MP-40 to the other processors you mentioned, because I never had a chance to audition the other processors. However, I will say that I am very happy with my MP-40 and Room Perfect works extremely well for both music and movies. The system is very stable and reliable, thus far! I am currently using a vintage Aragon 8008 to drive a pair of Aerial Acoustic 10Ts, along with an Aerial Acoustic CC3 (center) and SW12 (sub). A few things to point out - read the manual before running Room Perfect and follow Lyngdorf’s setup recommendations precisely, use custom curves to modify the bass to your preference, and run Room Perfect the minimal amount of positions (not more). I can honestly say that my system is the best it has ever sounded due to my Lyngdorf upgrade.
Thanks for the review and all the time you put into them both on RUclips and on the website, it made it a lot easier for me to make up my mind, and purchase this Sub over the SVS and others! I am glad I did it's amazing coming from having two ten's to the REL 1510 is night and day. It blends perfectly with my Focal Chora 816s its as if they have subs built into them vs before where I could never get the two tens to blend as if they where part of my speakers (at the level I wanted them too). no more boom, boom sound just rich, blended, impactful bass that compresses my hole room. Yes the REL is is twice the price of my two tens, "one RSL speed woofer and one martin logan dynamo 600" witch are not bad subs by any means. In my opinion once you have this level of performance, the REL 1510 delivers you can never go back.
For those who don't know the first 2 numbers in the HT series is driver size and the last 2 numbers is the wattage. For example 1508 15 inch 800 watts, 1003 10 inch 300 watts, etc.
I'm currently looking for a powerful 15" sub for my home theater that can dig down deep effortlessly and sound articulate doing it. It would be used for 50/50 for movies/music. Leaning towards rythmik, but open to other subs. 12 by 15 room with partially open side to kitchen.
trust your judgment.
get a Rythmik FV15, then save up and then get a second one.
or in a relatively small space like yours, you’d be fine with a pair of FV12s.
i first looked into Rythmik in 2011 but got cold feet because i was still chasing SPL.
finally a couple weeks ago i got the F12 pair i’ve needed the whole time.
Hsu, SVS, PSA, they all make excellent subwoofers, but Rythmik are on a different level.
don’t waste time, like i did
Love how Gene addresses “the Elephant” in the room; (Rel’s preferred line level connection!) Kinda surprised Gene isn’t more knowledgeable about Rel subs. Great review guys, on a long awaited multi-purpose sun, for sure. Two Rel 1205 MK II or one predator?
Can't believe you just asked that, I've been on a journey to try and figure this out. I've heard the MK II is a nice improvement from the original 1205. I'll be upgrading from the 1205 soon. Any words of wisdom before I spend way more money than my wife approves of?
I did one of each. I went with the rel 3d audio system to fill in the higher bass frequencies Since I wanted a rich sounding full range system. I've always felt like there was a big hole in the audio causing me to miss out on the magic. I have a 1510 for the LFE and mains, a 9x for the center channel, and a 1205 for the rear LFE and rear mains. I should have it all set up by the end of the month.
@@westensanchez9483let me know how it goes👍. I've been playing around with my system and can't figure out what I like best. I have 3 rel t9i, 2 paradigm sub 1s. I just put in a near field 21 inch kraken sub DIY. At the moment I don't have the rels in my system. I have the paradigm subs at the front and the 21inch near field. The impact is amazing but I feel like I'm missing something without the rels on the high level. I think it has to do with increasing the volume on the rels. I was getting better low end bass with my paradigm at the rear. So I might move them back and run rel high level at the front. See how that goes.
@@benfits8768 the t9 sounds way better than the predator for anything over 80 hertz in my opinion. It's just on another level as far as blending in those higher bass frequencies. The predators are amazing below that threshold and for room shaking bass.
What love to see what you think of the Rythmik subwoofers.
I would be interested to see you review REL's 3-d theater where all the speakers are underpinned with subs. John Hunter seems like a knowledgeable person and there's alot of great reviews on their subs. They can't all be wrong, can they? I'll be watching out for that 3-d review for REL
REL did a great job engineering a entry level subs affordable for the beginner home theater student, that doesn't have to pay so much we're not referring to high end powered subs by REL.
At this price point I'd be curious to see how the Paradigm Defiance X15 would compare.
It would destroy one of these head to head because it's ported and much larger.
A while back I auditioned a pair each of REL HT1205s and SVS SB3000s. The RELs were ultimately pretty underwhelming by comparison. The SVS are a bit more expensive, but they look, feel and sound like a completely different class of equipment. The HT1205 feels like cheap furniture VS professional equipment with the SB3000. I haven't seen a 1510 in person, but it had better be a lot more than just a bigger version, for the price difference. All that said, I respect REL's choice not to go with DSP. I kept fiddling with the SVS and I was always paranoid about phase, knowing the DSP would have to add some kind of delay. At least with the RELs, I would just plug them in, set the levels and start listening.
Either sub delay would need to be set properly to integrate with your LCRs regardless of DSP.
@@Audioholics Ah, it bears mentioning that I'm just running two channel and like to stack my tower speakers on top of my subs. Say what you will, but I like the big sound of the speakers above ear level. I also have pretty limited space and as luck would have it, the bass comes into focus very well at my listening position. Bottom line though, I don't really want any delay on the subs.
The 1510 is beautiful. The carbon fiber woofer glistens and looks great with the polished top. It's also a beast to move. It's big and it feels like it's made out of lead.
Love the in-depth reviews. Would certainly help if you guys used some type of pointer when showing the chart results so that it earlier to follow what you are referring to...for us newbies. And the numbers are not legible on the computer screen...and I'm using a 27 inch MAC. Thanks again for the info/review.
Some time ago Matthew Poes did a video on the Geddes approach where there isn’t a crossover point. Presumably Rel’s high level input gives you more scope to do that. Can you confirm that what you’re saying is the Geddes approach is now considered out of date? Thanks
As I recall, Geddes recommends no high pass filter on the main speaker, if you have the ability to calibrate the system in that manner. But this is not an absolute rule. The point is to get as many points of low-frequency emission in the room as possible which should average out into a flatter response, and that isn't a bad idea, so his approach definitely isn't considered out of date.
@@jameslarson2277 Thank you James - that was my understanding too which is why although I agree that Rel have been a bit slow on the uptake of DSP, I was surprised when Gene sort of criticised Rel for providing high level inputs in conjunction with a filter as connection options and said this was outdated. If used with AV amps with typical (basic) bass management and you want the low end frequencies to be reproduced by both mains and sub(s) as Geddes suggests, then the high level input surely would be the way to implement that, setting mains to large, taking a feed from them for the sub(s) and also using the low level input for the LFE signal.
I've run fullrange main towers with LFE blend and addition powered subs foe years. It works, but complicated set up.
@@Audioholics Totally agree. I use multi-sub with dsp and EQ on my 2-channel and the result is a seat to seat variation across my sofa's listening positions of +/-2dB from 20Hz to well beyond 200Hz. However, typical AVRs only have a crossover, not a separate HP and LP filters to apply to mains and subs. If your viewers want to try overlapping subs and mains, the only way I can see to do this is by using a sub(s)’s HL inputs rather than their AVR’s LFE out.
Set mains to large so they get all low frequencies, set the AVR to ‘no sub’ so everything is sent to the mains, take a HL feed to the sub and use sub LP filters. Overlap achieved! The only thing you can’t do is time align via the processor so you’d need to do that via the Phase nob I suppose but as Matthew says we’re hearing the room more than the direct sound in this range and our ears are forgiving of timing issues at the low levels.
Or is there (without addition dsp units) a better, less outdated way?
Great review guys! Can you also please review the REL S/510 or S/812?
Has audioholics not reviewed the t7x or t5x? Or the rythmik f12 variants? I’m a 2 channel guy with 5% home theater usage. I was thinking dual RSL speedwoofer 10s mk2, dual rel t7x, or dual rythmik f12’s. I’ve got Maggie 1.7i’s and Anthem STR integrated with arc room correction.
Is there any reason to get this REL instead of the Arendal 1723?
In fact for a medium size room , wouldn’t even something like the Arendal 1961 1S be better?
My dudes, I am about to order XLR cables from pre to power amps. Does it really matter how long they are? Like in recording situations, they go up to a 100 meters... I want them longer, i.e. 8-10 meters, so I can have the pre and sources next to the listening position, if that is what I end up deciding, and I don't want to buy short, only to buy a longer pair a few weeks later... what say you?
No, it doesn't matter at all. Do what you want.
The whole point of balanced is to be able to run long cable lines.
James is my unsung hero
I will fight anyone who says otherwise
Can’t argue with that
QQ: Rel recommends stacking their subs. You recommend spreading them out in the corners. Pro’s and con’s of either? Arendal subs also recommend stacking vertically
Stacking gives more gain due to colocation, but you lose the benefits of modal distribution. If you care only about 1 or 2 seats, it's fine. If you care about all your seats, don't stack, distribute.
@@Audioholics nice explanation Gene!! What if you do both? Stack AND put them in 4 corners, so have 8 or 12 subs (and stack them 2 or 3 high). Is that the ultimate way Gene? Apart from budget issues, any cons to this approach? Or is it at this point, it’s not worth the cost 💲? Please do give us your insights 🤓
Oh boy, that intro really tests my speakers!
Do you have any reviews on the Definitive Technology DN line of subwoofers?
It would be awesome if you guys could review a high powered 15” sealed rythmik.
Hello, being that you both have heard the JTR RS1, how would you compare the sound quality vs the REL 1510? I know the JTR would smash it with output and extension, but how do they compare sound wise? I have owned a JTR ported sub and I think it was the best sounding ported sub I have ever owned personally. However, I have never heard their sealed offerings.
In an attempt to explain the unexplained, I have some hypothesis on why high level inputs could* have benefits.
My first thought is that the voltage sag between the amplifier’s output capabilities and the speaker’s impedance profile, is then textured into the signal the sub gets. This phenomenon of voltage sag is very apparent with tube amplifiers, and is called “tube sag”. I do believe if you have a super duper amplifier, you should have stable voltage, but in practice the impedance dips of speakers can cause some amplifiers to run out of power and loose some of their zip. A non-linear behavior, which may be captured and mirrored by using the high level input as the signal source, as any sag between the amplifier and speaker is then also textured into the sub’s signal. So the sub sags like the speakers, with the speakers, and maybe that’s mellifluous.
Other thoughts are that strong signals, like a high level input, will reject more noise in the ratios of signal strength to noise strength. Maybe a case for cable lifters if the room is on a second level with wiring in the floor/ceiling. An RCA cable may pickup some 60hz hum if it’s by electrical wiring, maybe high level inputs do better in that regard. I can imagine an apartment dweller above a ceiling fan may benefit from high level inputs, lifters, or XLR cables. Even just outlets in the walls, the whole length of the wall has wiring in it for the outlet, it’s quite common to hide sub signal cables by tucking them right up against the wall, running parallel to 60hz mains. I could see being quite relevant especially over long runs or if the outlet is in use. (It may be in use powering the sub, or a mood light or whatever) I believe XLR would be great to resolve that type of interference, but maybe if the choice is just between high level inputs and RCA’s the high level inputs are more resilient because of their relative signal strength to the strength of the interference. This notion echoed in many interesting forum debates of whether it’s better to have long speaker cables, or long signal cables.
Last thought is that maybe the digital domain adjustments requires digital sampling which would digitize an otherwise analog signal. Maybe even with noise or distortion added too. Perhaps the soul of the music is lost like when someone takes your picture. The advantage could be as simple as the one we see when putting a receiver in pure-direct mode to bypass dsp. In my experience, I have heard quite a notable difference in pure-direct modes, mostly anecdotal experiences with older budget compromised equipment which may no longer be relevant observations in the modern context of high performance.
Maybe it’s something to do with pre-out signal quality vs speaker level output quality.
Just some thoughts, curious what other people may think.
Guys, I love your work, the videos are great. Consider changing the intro music.
Thanks Guys!
I would love a comparison between this and the 10k flagship model. I mean that's 5 HT1510's haha.
Try the Rel 3D setup
Will you be adding the 1510 continuous sweeps to your spreadsheet soon? I like to compare those more than the bursts.
It's in there
@@Audioholics Ok don't see any links though online.
Rythmik next.
Is upgrading from the 1508's to the 1510's worth it or negligible?
So my 1508 started making a buzzing sound so I contacted REL and since the 1508 is discontinued, they sent me a 1510 amplifier instead. I was honestly surprised but pretty excited at the same time. I just dropped it into my 1508 and it is definitely louder. I don’t think it’s worth the upgrade but you could get it if you wanted if you know what I mean…
I like fast, sealed subs for music. However, ported subs are good for giving movies plenty of slam. 2 of these would probably do both.
surely as an audioholics viewer you know "fast subs" are more a myth than anything else and as long as group delay performance is below threshold of audability the only issue with your sub is the integration, which is solely the owner's responsibility.
Great video guys!! This sub or svs sb3000 for movies? Thanks!
Is this a huge upgrade over the HT 1508? Those are on sale for $1399, so about a $500 price difference compared to the 1510.
They both drop down to
When you compare Monolith components with "premium" brands you realize how much more you get with monolith subs....
>Smart & simple review/sub - $1900 respectable quality driver *REL acclaimed to be 'fast & tight" -options exist to drive external with AV sub-out can be applied or maybe also properly with DSP solution like DEQ2496 if in AES/SPDIF chain only to achieve some aphile level.. no brainer if on a budget, gr8review!
Love James! Wisconsin baby!! That's where I'm from:):)
Have they dropped the crown symbol? Always put me off getting their sub's, so I got Kef instead.
I listened to the 1508 predetor back to back with an SVS PB3000 and it wasn't even a contest especially for music, the SVS sounded like a boomy mess in comparison.
I haven't heard the SVS PB3000 (or any other of their ported subs as I've never been in the market for ported ones) but seeing how their sealed Ultras aren't boomy at all it doesn't seem unlikely that a significant part of your issue came from comparing a sealed sub to a ported one.
I recently picked up the 1205 and love it.
yeah james how dare you not recall 100% of the specs of everything you review LOL
Can I use the 1510 with the 1508 in medium size room 7.1.4 system?
Yes, they blend nicely together. That's what I have now until I have enough to upgrade my other 1508. The 1510 has more midbass from 60 to 110hz and slightly more from 20-30hz. The 1510 is a bit punchier as well but yeah they blend nice.
It's nice having a sub without DSP. KISS is the name of the game, not everyone wants to be tinkering for minute improvement. This thing that Everything needs DSP is nonsense. Home theater is the new audiophiles.
Not everyone thinks the Earth is round either.
@@Audioholics and that is my point. Home theater enthusiast are the new audiophiles, super argumentative, annoying thinking they know better than everyone else. It's a shame. I used to love HT cause ppl just love their rigs and like sharing it but now it's a pissing contest.
@@wezzman1 A modern automatic IS better than a traditional manual at the job of being a transmission. You can prefer the manual (as I do) for your own reasons, but to believe they are equals in their intended function is a delusion. The trick is not trying to argue that a preference is better or equal...unless it can be proven of course. You don't NEED DSP but not having it is also not a better outcome choice because of that.
Let me make this clear, I meant in subwoofer only, of course you need DSP in your AV amps and suchlike.
Rythmik makes something very similar for much less.
They are the same price, this because of the import charges. Ruthmik in the UK is expensive and REL is responsible prices.
UK market is small and this publication is focused on the US market. I guess its nice to know the price is comparable to the folks across the pond.
Yeah you could get twin Rythmik 12's for 700 each and that would smoke this REL.
I don’t allow smoking in my home. 😂 😂
Svs still king for this price point.
It would be interesting to see how this would compare to a Hsu VTF3mk5, which IMO is the benchmark for this category, at whatever price (half in this case.)
BTW, it’s pronounced “shoo”, no affiliation. But they’ve been putting a smile on my face for thirty years now.
You guys probably already know, bit your sound was clipping pretty bad on this video. Also, how can you mention Rythmik, HSU, and SVS, but not mention PSA. You guys need to squash your beef with Power Sound Audio.
What beef with PSA? Don't make stuff up by ASSuming. There is no clipping in this video.
Paul McGowan would not agree with Gene's opine on how to hookup a sub.
Paul McGiwan elevates his cables.
Hilarious. Love your comment Gene. Snakeoil.
@@Audioholics lol!! Got'em!
@@Audioholics 🤣
Haha lol
Paul rubs audiophile grade baby oil over his cables
Makes them smooth when transmitting audio signals
Hi there ive had the HT1508 for a little while now £1200 GBP its now retailing at £1000 so to go buy a HT1510 at £1900/£2200 sorry too much money for too little of a upgrade....the ht1508...side note you American guys need to check out kit that aint got a American....name on it
Thank you Gene and James 👏🏼👍🏼
It’s been reassuring to hear about this model REL
Because I purchased two of these in December 10th 2022
And unfortunately Friday last week one of them crashed 💩🥴 😣
I immediately got in touch with the store from whom I purchased them from. They asked me to check the two fuses one in the plug and one on the unit just wear. The three pin plug goes into and both fuses are okay so they asked me to bring the unit back to the store so it can be sent off to Rel
Not a happy bunny about this
I dropped the HT 1510 predator two off at the store yesterday so we shall see what will happen about it,
Touch wood 🪵 it’s has a 3 year warranty 🙏 🏴
I don't like snake oil and Rel walks the line. I can do without all the marketing bluster considering its average performance for its size and construction. Yeah its not screwed up but it's not special.
Have you auditioned one before?
@@PumpUptheJam81 doesn't seem like it. When I think of snake audio with subs Rel is like the last company I'd think of
The problem is you can't just look at output. There's what I call the "unmeasureables", things like punch, speed, and dynamics. These are things you can't measure in a graph but REL excels at. This is coming from somebody who has owned many brands including REL, PSA, SVS, HSU, and more. Yes, the REL doesn't dig quite as deep as other brands, but the REL's are also cleaner, faster, and punchier than most other subs.
Rav 4 lol
They hold there value thow.
Still rockin my 18" Dayton Audio Ultimax, still just loving it! When we/you start talking about $10k subs, just saying, I'm gone! Don't car if it's made of pure GOLD, it ain't worth the numbers by the numbers..... My real money has to do real work, I have yet to beat my ultimax for less or more. Get a good speaker to start with, build a good box, drive it your way and tune it up. Then turn your nose up when somebody thinks they can ask 10K for a lesser thing..... Cheers 🍻
Those 18" Ultimax subs are beasts. Do you run them sealed or ported? And do you use dsp to correct the response?
I use the Dayton RSS315 HFA sealed without any adjustment (yet) and I am very happy
@@Pentenfi:
I only use sealed boxes, I can't stand port noise. I have my sub in a 4 cubic foot sealed enclosure and I do use some EQ on it. This thing really does move the earth. Cheers 🍻
Unfortunately, not everyone can build an enclosure(me)and tune it properly. Some people can but don't have the time. Yes, building your own subs is the way to go if you have the skills, but most people obviously prefer the convenience and Aesthetics of buying a unit already built and tested.
@@dextermorgan1:
Sure, no contest. To each their own of coarse, but when we start talking thousands of $$$ for a little baby 10 incher, it's just time to build. Even if you had to pay a carpenter or a cabinet maker to build it for you, you'd still be WAY ahead of the game with a better product at a fraction of the cost. Tuning is easy enough, there are hundreds of videos on that. You can even get prefab kits now all over the place to make it super easy to build. But to each their own. Cheers 🍻
My ported 10 has more output than this thing
Yeah, but how does it sound In comparison? People get so hung up on specs they forget the actual sound. Power is nothing without control.
@@PumpUptheJam81 Well it's an HSU vtf2 mk4 I've had for a few years now and it sounds utterly fantastic. I also run HSU subs in my dedicated home theater. I can assure you set up properly they are very accurate very smooth not boomy and have plenty of output and plenty of slam and they dig plenty deep.
@@kevinwest1607 HSU are amazing subs. I agree. I am simply curious if you have heard the REL before to compare. To be honest, I am a bit fatigued with all of the internet gossip on the forums. I ended up with a PSA 18” sealed unit and it was the most underwhelming subwoofer purchase ever. So I am very skeptical of spec driven research these days. HSU is on my radar (dual units and sealed) or an SVS offering if the resolution is there. I am not into muddy bass, and I already have a monolith 13 which is more than enough SPL but its missing something I cannot quite put my finger on.
@@PumpUptheJam81 Subwoofer integration is the key. You can have the great subwoofer,but if it's not integrated properly it never sounds quite right.
@@kevinwest1607 It is integrated well to my ear. What I am after is that certain “voice” or sound signature. One that is not too heavy, almost like a pro-driver with paper cone. I tried the psa in pursuit of that sound signature but it did not work out. The only subs that seem to have this signature (according to legend) are the REL offerings. I have yet to demo one though. Either way it’s a fun hobby but there is no shortage on BS on the forums and you tube comments. I feel that people should hold back on making blanket remarks on a piece of a equipment if they have never actually used it in their own space.
I don’t like two subs at all 🤣
I got 4 subs, two stacked at each side 💕💕
You want us to clap for you now?
Or later 😂 😆
😐
Man the subwoofer frame sucks.
For the price I definitely expected better. SVS and others really put it to shame in that aspect.
waaaaay overpriced, smh'...