Cms and I’m not changing. There’s not really any point vs a free slot in the gamma. TTK is so fast it’s irrelevant. Only time I used to use the surv was simply down to it having more uses.
Whatever was available and thats imo how it should be. Sometimes when you're duoing its good to start with SURV and other times you find extra CMS or SURVs anyway. Neither is better or worse they're both good options.
I use whichever one I find after my limb gets blacked out. In 4 years of playing I rarely bring one into raid because it's always the first thing I'm taking out, and I always am able to find one while looting.
Mostly CMS before. I'm a F2P player without EOD so space in my ass is everything and the CMS is more modular and easier to discard for me to shove higher value loot up there.
Sticking with Surv12 cause i survive around 4-6 times in 100 Raids with less than 30-40 HP or the argued flesh Damage of the additional bullet to kill. Furthermore i tend to look at my HP in raid and if it drops below 400 i try to leave the raid and don't seek more PvP Encounters. But i got the EoD and around 4 thousand hours and don't care about the cost and more about the boost of moral. None the less its an informative and great video. THX for the Analysis.
I think you're forgetting a big factor in the decision. How often do you have to use the kit? If you use a CMS, basically every bullet will re-black that repaired limb in a single bullet. Meanwhile a SURV12 will leave enough HP that AP rounds like 5.45 BS and M855A1 and stray buckshot pellets will not black the leg from a single hit. Not to mention if you repair all your limbs, getting legged can black all the limbs all over again very quickly if they were repaired with a CMS. I think its clear the number of bullets you can take to survive is basically the same between the two, but having limbs blacked more frequently means your 5 use CMS will run out more often in raid, you'll eat more 16 second surgery periods, and you're more likely to be suffering the black limb debuff during a fight which can hurt your aim or cause you to limp if you don't pre-med. Personally, I'll take the 4 second time loss for the chance to avoid the various annoyances that come with more frequent blacked out limbs each raid.
5.45 BS and M855A1 are, frankly, unpopular rounds. I don't know why you're making your decisions based on such edge cases, and also just for the case of it being less annoying when the video isn't about how annoying they are obviously its your choice, and your reasoning besides those points is fine
@@skmojoed huh? Those aren't unpopular rounds. Also, the video is about which surgical kit is better to use when you look past the clickbait title. Less annoying = more usable.
I think we need to take into consideration the amount of times that limb will be re-blacked when shot again. When I use the cms kit I find myself repairing the same limb 3-4 times bc of it gets hit by one bullet or pellet it’s blacked again, when I use the surv 12 it keeps enough hp to eat a bullet and not black out
Who ever said that thorax and head black outs are bugs? There is no in-game reference (and none outside) that states thorax and head are supposed to insta-kill you. BUT we DO have in-game reference to blacked out limbs as a whole. You roll dice any time a limb blacks out, it might kill you or not (either arms or thorax from my experience), it just feels like thorax chance to kill you is higher. And that's probably the truth of the matter
CMS+ALU has always been my go-to. Its lighter and does pretty much the same thing faster. That extra HP rarely matters since youre not repairing the thorax or head
Extra HP will not save your life most likely but often will save you form getting this lim blacked out again. So better is to take splin in to pockets and this extra slot in container for survkit instead of cms.
@@ktg_2castle960 why even waist a hotkey with a light bleed bandage as all healing items barely use any amount when healing a light bleed and your also getting your arm or whatever healed while stopping the light bleed that only takes 1 health point per second meaning it could be counteracted by a propital
There was one more thing I think you may have skipped over Veritas, and that is convenience between raids. A CMS after a thorough raid with fights would likely need to be replaced as a CMS would likely only have half of it's uses at the end. This means that in-between raids, players would likely want to swap out the CMS more frequently. This is the main reason why I use the Surv-12 kit myself as I would typically forget to get a fresh CMS kit and be down a limb or two in raid as I didn't have enough uses. I rarely run into that issue with the Surv-12 kits which is why I still use it to this day. On top of that, (and I know this situation is niche) I also help a lot of newer players learn the game and more often than not, these players either don't have surgical kits, or forget to bring one. The Surv-12 helps out in these scenarios, because I have plenty of uses on my Surv-12 kit to share with my squad-mates and therefore increase our effectiveness and survivability. Just my two cents though...
Awesome vid, V! I usually go with the CMS/alu-splint myself. Tthough, I can see having a surv if playing in duo/groups mostly for the amount of usages it has.
Thank you for the well thought through and data driven content. In addition to the increased time to kill, I personally use the Surv12 for a couple reasons that weren't listed in the video. To keep in theme with the non-subjective comparison of shots to kill, we could also consider how many shots it takes to black out a repaired limb. In nearly every case, the CMS will leave you with under 32 HP. Every round commonly used will black out that limb with one shot assuming it isn't dealing with the velocity changes. Having the ability to get hit once and still run or stabilize aim can be crucial in a gunfight and may prove to be a major factor that enables you to live through the engagement. A more subjective conversation is the true cost of the meds. Running a CMS means you likely run a splint of some kind with cost and space implications. In the same vein, a CMS has a diminished value around 40-60% of its use where only having 2 or 3 uses could cause a player to opt for a new CMS rather than risk running out mid raid. The Surv12 can be used much further in this regard getting to roughly 20% of its use before meeting that same criteria.
I feel it's a bit of a give or take situation, and while I do agree a lot of times when your engaged you've already popped pain meds, which won't stop blacked out limb shakes but will let you keep sprinting, the advantagous are very situation dependant, time cost is a huge factor and if your solo your not likely to cms or surv if you have close contact, which is a majority of scenarios most players find themselves in. There's also the fact that broken limbs can happen without a blacked out one, so while it is a bonus for a surv to heal broken limbs it's a waste to only heal a broken limb with a 20 sec use. In CQB it's a rather moot point, and even mid range engagements typically and quickly become CQB in a lot of instances, a CMS would be more time effective. A surv would be great in long range if you need to cross a point and you have no pain meds while taking fire but those engagements are a dime a dozen.
@@NarutoMagicCyclops It definitely is a give or take. I don’t feel pain meds really play a part in the discussion as it is independent of the use of a CMS or Surv. What we’re talking about in context of blacked out limbs is whether or not your limb will be blacked out. Whether you’re on pain killers or not, that changes a 2-5 second heal to a 15-20 second surgery as well as the potential negative effects that blacked limb has. Regardless of play, the decision to do surgery typically is done in situations where you feel you have at least 15-20 seconds. This is where I don’t feel the additional 5 seconds really has a major impact. The number of times that 5 seconds would made a difference is near nonexistent. I bring the blacked out limb scenario in because I frequently find myself in a second engagement after having been in a fight where I may have lost an arm and/or leg that has been repaired in surgery. I can feel the difference in having CMSed and Surved when in those secondary engagements. After a CMS, I will never have a red limb. It’s either good or blacked. Once I switch to a surv in the wipe I find myself with red limbs that I can do a 3 second heal in most situations and be back in the fight full HP. Edit: I couldn’t read your whole post on mobile so to just touch on the split piece you brought up. Even with a surv I typically run an Alu split as well. I prefer having the ability to quickly heal a break quickly, but it’s not necessarily needed when running a surv which is why I included it in the subjective section of my original comment. Outside of scavs for some reason, I find I rarely have a break without a blacked out limb in combat. I find that is much more common from falls etc.
Seeing as I never get past Epsilon and usually don't get past Bravo, the CMS is used to save space for the more important things, like docs case and other High Value Loot. Edit: After watching the video in full, I would still prefer the Surv12 with my slower play style. That being said, I still don't have the container space.
yea i used to force through the levels and farm 60rnds at woods to get through punisher early game as its much easier because more weapons n armor needed for those quests are cheaper
im glad you re visited this. I've been running CMS + alum splint for the same reasons u stated. speed of use. the ability to move items around for high value items in gamma container and cheaper cost over the long term.
Cms before vid and after. Not changing. The 4 sec difference and the fact that 75% of my raids I never need to use it and on flea I can get 1 cms for 15-20k roubles. It's cms all the way for me. Awesome vid as always V
Playing for 2 years and this choice in the game always crosses my mind. My favorite map is Reserve, paracord in my gamma is always a consideration. That kinda made me use CMS Alu combo. A lot. Thank yu for making feel reassured to not go back. BESIDES if it’s an argument of uses. You think the low use count is a sign for you get out of raid and reset. I’d fix limbs off AI. You’d be dead by a player with this head eyes bug lol
This is what I think a better simulation to do for comparing those two kit imo. 1. start with full health. 2. generate a number from 1 to shots to kill in that situation (leg meta or common distribution), and use it as shots hit on the player. 3. fix blacked out limb and regenerate to full. 4. repeat 2. and 3. til character dies and get the average total shots to kill This simulation is better imo because sometimes u don't always get killed in a fight. This take in to account of the "reblacking" of a fixed limb, the total uses of the kit, and the randomness of fight. The result might be interesting to see.
my thing has been cms/alu for solo play and surv12 for group play. I'm usually playing with my lower level friends who don't have their own kits so the extra uses can be useful! love the vid
Objectively, you make the most informational videos about the subtle yet complex parts of the game... personally I use Surv kits. (jumps out of windows, willing to take damage for flashy kill - level 67 plays like it's COD sometimes giga chad). i often do jumps on purpose that damage limbs/cause fractures. having a larger pool of health on the limb while fractured let's me sprint further before blacking it/adding the multiplier to damage if shot in it. TLDR in my head, more health on limbs = more good for my jumpy parkour playstyle
You don't want to be 5 seconds away from danger when doing surgery, the same way you don't want to repack magazines in the middle of a firefight. Though it can be cancelled in an emergency, ideally what you want is as much time/distance between you and the danger before using that CMS/Surv12. Propital or adrenaline is how you create that distance and regain stamina/weapon control in the first place (can't reach cover if you're limping around while trying to shoot or trying to regain HP). By the time you reach that safe spot, that propital will have done most of the job and kept you able to fight/suppress/evade on your way there. You can then fix those limbs to get back in the fight. Also keep in mind that having one of those CALOK-B/cheap tourniquet on speed dial is what prevents those heavy bleeds in the first place, and much faster than your usual salewa. 1. Stim for pain/stamina/health regen (Gives you the ability to finish the threat or evade it) 2. Heavy bleeds (Everything below that once you've created enough distance or with sufficient cover) 3. Light bleeds 4. Torso/head HP (AI-2 is ideal for that) 5. Surgery 6. Check armor HP + remaining ammo 7. Food/drink (surgery and stims will dry you up very quickly) First 3 steps you can do while evading the threat and still being in that "danger zone", the last 4 should only be done when you're in a safe spot. *Quick note*: stay on the move and relocate, you don't want a huge blood trail pointing directly at your "safe spot".
I’m a hardcore lurker and casual tarkov player but I had to comment to say this was one of the best and well created vids on RUclips I’ve ever seen. Info all clear and well delivered, and the lengths you went to for data is awesome! So cool love the vid.
Respect for all the hard work you put in this kind of videos , i feel like you dont get enough recognition for all this awesome work, also i love that you dont fall into the typical " this is the best or this is the meta" that every tarkov youtuber gets into, but you rather ask the proper questions for us to answer and makes us use our gamer brains, big kudos veritas, keep it up!!!
I think another thing to consider is, as others have mentioned before, that limbs get „re-blacked out“ more with the CMS. I‘d like to say that I find that to not only be a problem in terms of needing more uses of the CMS or the added vulnerability in terms of damage on the blacked limb, but also the drawback of being less effective in a fight more often, due to perhaps not being able to move properly with a blacked out leg (if you didn‘t pre-med), worse aim in a mid to long distance fight with blacked out arms, giving away your position with coughing or being screwed by lack of energy when you lost your stomach for to long in total (which is not that unlikely due to many meta armors not protecting the stomach). All of these can also get you killed even if it takes the enemy the same amount of shots as it would have if you were max health all around, so the fact that the Surv12 gives you more HP back is imo even more important with regard to that than maybe a half a shot on average more to kill you to a leg.
I get this question asked very often by clan members that are new to the game, i usually respond acordingly to their edition of the game. If you have a standard edition with Alpha container or the one with beta container it's always gonna be CMS, while in EoD owners case it's gonna be CMS into Surv12 as your account progresses in wipe. The main reason is the space that you have avalible in your secure case, obviously you want to take painkillers with you, but you don't want to pay over 20k for the good ones every raid so you shove them in your butt, next slots are the extra ammo you might wanna take, a doc case and the previously mentioned surgical kit. For me those are the essentials and they take up 6 slots (If they enjoy PvP, like i do injector case would be handy, so it's technically 7 slots), which in case of standard edition users is kinda bad bcs they have to give up on something before they can barter beta from peacekeeper. Taking all this into consideration, imo you should have at least Epsilon to use a Surv12 without wasting slots. Tldr; Slots valuable, Surv only when Epsilon
I will always use the best value item i can that's available to me. In my scenario with a gamma container, a Surv-12 will always be the better option. You get back more of your limb after completing surgery, and each use of the surgery kit costs considerably less than the CMS. the extra slot over a CMS is negligible to me with a gamma container. it's a win-win scenario.
This is my first wipe and I have a standard account. I typically use the CMS because it fits well into my BETA container (I upgraded within the game, not upgrade account). I rarely live long enough to worry about doing surgery on the same limb more than once. If I find a SURV-12, I try to get out with it and sell it on.
Playing solo u generally do more loot runs and have higher priority on secure container space. When playing with buddies(tend to be both newer and regularly less prepared than most partners of mine) I will bring a surv kit so I can comfortably share heaps with lower level friends. I also hate not having my meds when I need them. Tarkov seems to be a game where when you are prepared you don't need to be. And when you aren't prepared, you should have been. So with meds, I prefer preparedness. I have played for 7 wipes, I have over 3000 hours and have almost always had the EOD Version. So you know my background, thank you veritas for doing this elevated quality of research. I respect the science of it. And your ability to elaborate well with elequence.
I would argue that the difference between the number of rounds to kill, even when 1 or less, is still very impactful. We can say a difference between 4.5 and 5.2 bullets is very small at 0.7, but when viewing it from a perspective of 'breakpoints', that is 1 less bullet that you can take in a close fight when using the CMS on average. Sure there are some scenarios where the rounds to kill was within the same breakpoint, and so no extra value is derived, but the number of scenarios where the gap crossed a breakpoint appeared to be significant. I think some people may even argue that with the very low time-to-kill or bullet-to-kill experience that we currently have in tarkov, being able to survive 1 more bullet from something like a semi-auto RFB may well be worth the extra slot in our buttstash. Now, whether or not we are sweaty enough to consider ourselves 'good enough players' to view 1 more bullet as enough of a margin between a win and a loss of a fight is another story. I would love to see actual tarkov data on the number of players killed by face-taps compared to other hit locations, to use as an average to say "well, x % of the time you are going to die to this, but the remaining y percent of the time having the bigger surv kit may have merit." But that data is likely not every going to be in player hands.
really good comparison between the two surgical kits, ill personally keep using the cms and pack a splint into raid since the difference is very miniscule thank you for this video
I use CMS because I use them for very different reasons than your tests. The way I find the surgical kits saving my life is: Be able to run, no shaky hands, no starved to death after blacked stomach. Basically, I use the surgical kits to keep me in combat-ready status over the HP values they bring back.
Very deep analysis of this mechanics, nothing is left to wonder! I'm a surv guy, useful to fix a limb while treating broken bones at the same time. The cost is low enough that i don't mind throwing it away for good loot. And also i'm the one that never run out of surgical kit when friends are in need.
another consideration is that when taking a surv12 out of your secure container, you need a 3x1 slot to put it into. So, your rig needs a 3x1 if you are no backpack extracting. niche scenario, but I do so a lot when questing on certain maps.
He didn't mention that with Surv12, assuming you don't find GPU's or whatever, you get a lot of raids/uses out of each kit. With CMS kit, after even 2 uses you are taking a huge risk not bringing in a fresh one, which means you gotta risk the one with 3 left and bring a new one, causing CMS to cost significantly more rubles in the long run.
Bruh there's no way you're needing to CMS more than 3 times per raid like if you've taken that much damage it's time to get the fuck out and reset lol not keeping shit with no meds.
@@ayamehachimitsu Well, I used to, but I definitely feel like with how damage spread and inertia has changed I haven't that much this wipe. If you peak far enough out to lose 3 limbs you're not getting back into cover fast enough to dodge another round. I will take a CMS kit with 2 uses but not 1. If I lose 3 limbs and only have 2 uses, I'm taking a painkiller, and I'm fixing my legs and making my way to extract/finish my quest quietly. The painkiller will deal with a lot of the negatives of a blacked arm, but it doesn't allow you to sprint on a blacked leg. If you've been in such an intense firefight that you've lost 3 limbs and survived, chances are your armor is fucked, you're low on ammo, you're low on meds healing all your shit back, and you're probably heavy with the other guy's gear. In that situation you want to patch your legs and gtfo even if you had more than 2 uses I still probably wouldn't do my arm that shit is way too loud and takes way too long and from there on out I am avoiding fights whether I have my arm or not.
@@zackbobby5550 All very true. Ive just been very unfortunate to be in a "quiet" corner consistently while healing my stomach and 3 limbs. Im pretty sure im 1 bullet of any caliber to death and I can hear the cms cutting noise in my nightmares xD
Having been doing a Standard account run this wipe, I usually keep a CMS in my container for use as needed, but with its relative high availability, if I need to put something else in those slots, I am willing to swap it out and wont mourn its loss if I die afterwards Also I know I am a bit of a odd duck in how I run ammo in raids, preferring a military style loadout in nature (though the ammo used can vary depending on what I am planning on doing)
As a fellow Standard edition enjoyer, i recommend just buying the Beta container from peacekeeper for about a million roubles, which is in my opinion, completly worth it, stuff it with a docs case and with the surv kit, carry more pills or an injector case in the last slot and grind the prapor untill you get the epsilon.
I almost always use surv 12, never been bothered by the slower use time or larger size. I only ever take CMS to reserve so I can fit paracord in my gama.
Great video. I'd like to see a simulation where the player is equipped with a randomly selected, commonly used armor. Then, a random weapon is chosen and it will have either a popular budget choice ammo or a popular meta ammo selected randomly. Each limb will then be zeroed and re-healed 0-2 times randomly with which ever surgical kit is being tested and the body armor will be shot with the selected ammo type 0-2 times. Fully restore the player's HP, then randomly shoot body parts, including the head, until they die and count the rounds. Repeat for the other surgical kit in the same circumstances, record the result, and then repeat the entire simulation until a large sample size is obtained. I think that it's good to filter out headshots to determine which kit is better, but including headshots helps determine if there is any point to it in the first place. I think this test, unless I heard wrong, does not pre-damage the armor for the second conflict, which I think would increase the importance of having more HP depending on how badly their ammo damages armor on-hit and how many times they were hit in the chest but managed to heal. I know that latter case isn't part of the current simulation but rarely do you have full armor after an engagement where you are wounded so badly.
The surv12 is nice due to the many uses it has. Very good with squads, especially if people are running EOD or at least beta in the early game. Surv12 also wins on how many shots one can take and extract, because if the cms is low youll need a crapton of painkillers to get out, especially on a map like shoreline or woods. Pretty much everything else is negligible.
having a gamma container has made it an easy choice to take the surv12 kit whenever i can get my hands on one. and even when the data shows the hp difference between the surgical kits is maybe onlly a single bullet, i guess the confidence i get with higher hp limbs is allowing me not to play scared even when they get damaged
Before this video, I was using the free CMS you get with EOD but once those ran out, I was fucking happy when I found a Serv12 in raid. Has served me well so far. Now that I've unlocked my medical bay in the hideout yesterday, I've noticed the CMS are much easier to craft and as you said, only take up 2 spots in your Gamma and are a few sec quicker - which can make the difference in the middle of a gunfight. I'll be sticking with the CMS from now on and just sell the Serv12 on FM when I create them.
I have one major sissues with your propabilistic method. The lack consideration of standard deviation. Image both scenarios (numbers are made up): there are 5% chances to die to 1 bullet, 90% you die to 2, and 5% you die to 3. Second scenario, 35% you die to 1 bullet, 30% 2 bullets and 35% 3. In both scenarios the average is 2 bullets to kill, but in second you have it is 7 times more likely you survive 2 shoots. That is massive difference that you did not consider with just a mean.
Been running the Surv if I have the room to for the extra HP/re-usability across multiple raids. Managing your legs/mitigating a mobility kill with meds (preferably prop or adrenaline) is almost always better in a fight than trying to CMS. Unfortunately in the current setup running it from the rip means EOD account or get stuffed. A Surv, a Salewa, and a pocket morphine are pretty optimal budget meds IMHO. ETA: I finished the video. I think that something that may not have been accounted for here that plays out very differently in real games is bleeding management or mobility management. A bleed on CMS healed limb versus a Surv Healed limb is going to be a huge difference. With a Surv Healed limb you simply have more time available to manage your meds before you have to worry about your limb being blacked again. Another pretty important factor is also going to be how many rounds a leg can take before it gets re-blacked. Even one or two extra rounds for preventing a mobility kill Is going to be a huge deal. I also think you missed a great opportunity by not running a scenario that simulates the dreaded sniper shotgun scav; I suspect damage drop off from range (and to a lesser extent pellet spread) would significantly increase the number of hits you can survive with the Surv relative to the CMS.
Great content! Loved the scientific method employed. Personally, I run the CMS until max hideout. Once I am no longer needing the extra space in my secure container to drag out loot, I switch to Surv12 around level 35 or so. I am confident that the extra hp saved not only can save you a worthwhile amount of times, but the amount of times it prevented me from losing a critical limb and stay combat effective is a stacking benefit, especially with the viability of shotguns seemingly up this wipe.
I've always ran the Surv-12 in the Gamma. I don't really play solo much and I normally play with friends that don't have EOD. There have been so many times where I've been asked for a surgery kit and having more than 5 uses is really useful. I also really appreciate the more health even though the test showed you survive 1 more bullet normally there have been times where I've been insanely low health. An example being yesterday surviving a fight in resort on 21 HP with only head and thorax and having to fix all 4 limbs and stomach then after surviving a wild Scav with a shotgun towards Lighthouse extract.
It’s convenience for me. If I have a bunch of Aluminum splints I’ll buy CMS kits. If I’m out of both and I need to buy one I’ll go with a surv 12 and that will last a while for me or until I swap it out and die with it in my rig. By then I picked up a splint or CMS and will buy what I’m missing and rinse and repeat pretty much. I don’t like the long heal time, like the better heal %, but will also use stims in a pinch so I can usually get to cover or finish the fight. Either way we all die a bunch. Really love the statistical analysis here and not wasting time with in game frustration and resources and time. Love thinking smarter
The amount of times the Surv12 has saved my life is crazy, either a scav randomly blacked a limb and I had to go PVP, I fell and broke my leg or my arm got broken, the Surv12 will always be there, for me its obvious, Surv12.
I love the science content, I think it was a mistake to change so many variables in each scenario but the results are still interesting to see. IMO you should've had the PMC wear a standard armor and be full health throughout all the scenarios, if you wanted to run a second set of the same scenarios with a different PMC loadout/health value it would be easier to factor out how the variables affected the results.
Concur. Should be the same parts repaired in each "iteration" so you have a true comparison. It could be that even when you control that, the shots to kill variability is ~1, but with the current trials it seems like conditions were chosen to reach an outcome
honestly its very situational. if i’m going for cqb like dorms, bunker, resort or factory its defo cms. if not its surv12. another factor is if i’m carrying a backpack or not.
Awesome video, as always! I personally go with the CMS, simply because it saves space. I like being able to take double stacks of ammo in my Gamma, or more high-value loot. To me that easily pays off - the number of times where I have had multiple blacked-out limbs, put them back on with the CMS and THEN gotten killed where a Surv12 would have saved me could probably be counted on one hand. I think the only time I would really consider using a Surv12 is if I got Kappa, which I never bother with.
Another test I think would be interesting comparing is how many shots it takes to black out limbs that have had surgery done, whether through direct damage or damage through other blacked out limbs. When fighting at close range HTK is nearly all that counts, but with mid-long range fights things like scope stamina start to matter more, so the effect of a blacked out arm becomes more of an issue. Also, these longer fights may have a long amount of time for healing in between shootouts which means depending on how many limbs are blacked out when using a SURV12 or a CMS one or the other may be quicker to restore you fully.
Great analysis, Veritas. I would like to add that damage inflicted by rounds is not the only relevant damage in the game. The ridiculous number of times I black my legs due to fall damage I feel like I need every single health point to not do it again immediately
I love this type of content and I really want to see a destructability test for armor and see how many bullets a particular vest can stop from a variety of ammo
I go for the big boy because I like how I can carry 6 slots worth of CMS uses in 3 slots, and I can skimp on bringing splints. I then pack one AFAK, which brings me up to only 4 slots used, and I’m able to recover from anything type of injury, for one really bad or two moderate bad encounters I manage to survive. I bought EOD, so I’ve got 5 more slots left for other items. I usually bring my key ring and dog tag case, leaving me with 3 wild card slots I will put other half used med kits, pain meds, CALOK to stop heavy bleeds and spare my AFAK some uses, but I tend to avoid bringing in stuff to stop light bleeds, and I just toss an army bandage or whatever I find in my belt instead. Those last 3 slots are where I put items I need for a quest, like markers, I might throw emergency water rations and something to eat for those long raids where I get shit luck finding provisions along the way, so I don’t die trying to exfil. Most of the time I’ll bring a nearly used up AFAK or single use item to stop bleeds so I have room for good loot If I find it. I don’t mind the cost for those items because it pays for itself over time. If I loot Grizzlies I keep those in my stash so I can heal for free right before I’m ready for my next raid. That way I heal over time as much as I can while I sell stuff, and go for a Scav run if it’s up. If I have a to of splints on hand I’ll leave bones broken after a raid too, and use those because I loot them all the time and never carry them in my secure container, so I can either sell them or use them.
I use a CMS. A CMS and an alu splint takes up the same amount of space as a surv12 but gives you more flexibility for how that space is arranged as well as more flexibility for throwing items out of your secure container for looted valuables. The CMS and definitely the alu splint are faster to use than a surv12 (even if you have to both do surgery AND splint a fracture) and they weigh less combined than a surv12. The only redeeming factor for the surv12 is the max health reduction being less than on the CMS, but I'm willing to gamble on that for the benefits of a CMS and an alu splint.
I used to use the surv12 before this wipe. This wipe I’ve been using cms simply because it saves space and availability. I’ll likely go back to Surv12 after this as I usually die and my secure loot is no longer FIR. Thanks for another great tarkov science video I love these and the critical analytical thinking that goes into them
I didnt even know I didnt have notifications on for your channel until you mentioned it. I got notifications for every video you've uploaded since I subbed so I didnt even think about it. Edit: side note (4:20 , haha funny number in the time stamp), I've gotten and seen others get blacked heads quite a few times. You're right that you cant surgery a blacked head or thorax (impossible because you're dead at that point), but you can still survive a blacked head from full hp(or near, idk, havent done testing on it but I'm usually not 100% hp in my raids). Dont know if you were saying it, but the context implied a blacked head is guaranteed death. Dont know if this is just a visual bug where the player has 0 hp so it rounds down to the next whole number, displaying 0 and a blacked limb or something, or if you're just allowed to survive a blacked head. It makes sense you wouldnt be able to perform surgery on your own head ("I cant see my forehead" -Patrick Star), but I'm not quite sure if you're supposed to be alive with a head at 0 hp.
I use the surv12 not because I need all 15 uses in 1 raid, but because i often use 3/5 or 4/5 uses of the CMS, and I dont want to go into raid with a mostly used CMS. The surv12 can be used over multiple raids without worrying about not having enough uses. Plus I don't put a lot in my gamma and I usually have 2 or 3 empty slots, so I'm not worried about space. The only issue I deal with is time, but I usually get to a safe enough position.
Where it Surv12 shines is when multiple limbs have been blacked out for example with two limbs balcked out the CMS (25-45%) could return between 30 - 60.75hp while the surv12(60-72%) could return 72 - 97.2hp this is a huge difference
I once had the same limb blacked out 3 or 4 times in a single raid, and if I remember correctly, it was only that limb that ever got blacked out. It was down to single digit HP by the end. I also don't recall if I used CMS or Surv12, it's been a while. But taking that into consideration, having more health on my limb in general, especially after consecutive times, Surv12 is more worth it. Nowadays with a lot of changes to the containers, there's only so much that you can and would want to put into it. These days, I pretty much only have a SICC or Docs, Surv12, then an extra heal (1x1, IFAK or AFAK), painkiller in the form of vaseline, balm or ibuprofen, and then I either have extra bullets, especially if it's high cost ammo.. Or I roll with an alu splint and a calok-b, and the calok will be replaced with injection case, so it's pretty much then just Alu Splint for those times you might break a limb but not black it out, or a stack of ammo. So for me personally, and I do have the Gamma container obviously, I'll have multiple things I can toss out for a GPU or whatever. The Surv12 for me is usually not the first thing that goes out. Not to mention it's a usage cost, and you can share the Surv12 for a group of people.. And by the offchance you have both arms, both legs and stomach blacked out.. You'll still have 10 uses left instead of not even a CMS.
I use the Surv12 Exclusively.. For me personally its not about the time to kill difference more than the likelyness of that limb being blackened by a nuissance scav or someone taking popshots from a distance. With the CMS it takes a sneeze from a distant player to re Blacken that limb, potentially causing me to limp if i havent got painkillers, or forcing me to stop and heal once again somewhere. Potentially leading to being pushed by players. Plus the Surv is nice when you forget a splint etc
CMS: Before Strength 51lvl - weight and size. Every gramm matter. And after looting something expensive I swap it with CMS/Surv - so if I die (it is ~35% of raids by stats) I'll lost less. Surv: Mostly after 51 lvl of strength AND IF I use big backpack or/and "3 hex-line" rig (Alpha). Mostly because with something like Trizip - it is waste of space. But with bigger backpack with loot I wanna have my kit with me after dropping heavy backpack in/before fight.
The Surv 12 doesnt offer nearly as much as the CMS for a multitude of reasons. (If I was any good id do a video reply haha) But, 1 additional slot = min 10k per run. Avg player uses maybe 1-2 uses per run. gives a CMS avg lifespan of, 3-4 raids, lets call it 4 for sake of avgs. And the Surv is 15, gives it the life of lets call it 8 to 10. 4x10 min = 40k per the life of that CMS that is being earned, therefore allowing for it to pay for itself, and its uses, over the course of your raids, and thats purely lost with the Surv 12. With a solid setup, you can have keys, injectors, all meds and 1 free slot available with EOD, keys+expensive meds in upgraded, and not much for alpha, which makes the CMS just stronger there in general. Stronger profit margins, and more cost efficient overall.
Interesting, the difference is actually lower than expected. Guess Ill keep using CMS; the smaller size and lower cost makes it much less of an opportunity cost. Also got a metric ton of CMS' from looting crack house.
Surv: More limb hp, at the cost of container space, longer animation, and cost (30k is nitpicking but eh) CMS/ALU: Faster, cheaper, less hp per limb. As someone who’s had raids where I’ve had to use a CMS 7-9 times (borrowed a teammates) and walked out with limbs at 1/1 hp, I’ll still stick by the CMS compared to surv. Those precious seconds when you dip out of a fight to fix your leg or stomach quickly matter. Surv is great for keeping you healthier in a raid sure, but I’ll take that time advantage over the limb HP any day. We’re at the point in wipe everyone has high flesh/pen rounds like BP/M62/M61 so 90% of the time that extra 18 HP on your arm doesn’t mean anything, it’ll still be blacked out first shot.
the surv is the same 3 slots as a cms and alu splint, and can do both tasks at the same time if need be. it's also the 1st thing to come out unless i'm running shitty spare ammo. generally more worth, plus the maps i play i find cms's all the time and can use those if i'm in that sticky of a situation
I mostly run Surv12 just because I don't like to think about whether I should bring 2 CMS kits because one of them is 3/5 or not. I mostly sell my Surv12s when they have less than 4 uses left, so it more of a peace of mind kind of deal for me rather than "is the more HP worth it"
100% this is what it is for me aswell. I lose a lot of limbs it seems by choosing to not shoot at scavs and rather run past to try to sneak around them and sometimes they leg me or arm me mid run and that automatically takes away from the uses and then if you get into a real fair fight most times you will lose at least a limb or two so therefore after my CMS is below 3/5 i toss it so therefore it loses a lot more value because i dont want to not heal a limb as thhis lowers your ttk substantially
There are 2 major differences that make me never ever switch off the Surv12: 1) More HP on average which can vary between 35 and 50ish HP. That one bullet can actually be 2 bullets difference, so yeah WORTH IT. With a CMS you get 10-35HP. That's a HUGE difference to me. 2) The amount of uses Downsides are 1) a couple of extra seconds but lets be real, if you need 16 seconds to surgery, and you find a safe place and time to do it, those 4 seconds really dont matter that much. 2) one extra slot consumed in your gamma, which really isnt that much of a downside because if i need space, I'll suddenly have 3 and not 2 extra slots in there. The amount of times I got killed with a 15 HP limb, is beyond me. Especially once your surgery skill goes up, the time is reduced and yeah, you would get a bit more HP with a CMS with that skill too, but a Surv basically gives me 60-100% extra HP at the cost of a slot and 4 seconds... AND I bring a splint with me as well, because spending either 16 or 20 seconds on a broken limb is just stupid if you wanna cheap out on a 15K splint. Side note: when did you ever get hit by all pellets in a shotgun? That barely ever happens. Surv12's save lives
I think if the SURV12 had it's own animation for using a splint rather than just doing the full surgery, it would be used more. I use a CMS because I don't want to wait 20 seconds if I break a leg or especially if I break both. Also I don't normally get more than 3 or 4 limbs blacked in a raid so 5 uses if fine for me. Having a quick use splint is worth more to me than a little bit of extra HP on a limb.
Subbed due to the dedication to create an entire program just to test this and also the logical way you went about testing. Great stuff. Personally, I will continue to use the CMS kit as the advantage provided by the SURV12 isn't enough for me to give up the slot and 4sec difference. Especially when most players just go for the Head, Eyes strat.
I usually bring the CMS. Not because I think its "better" but because it allows me to carry another stack of ammo in my secure container. The difference in the surgery kits usually won't be the reason you die, but running out if ammo definitely can/will lol
you have alpha/beta - cms you have gamma - surv12 there is one variable that i never seen talked about - glitched limbs : when limb was mend with any kit and went to 0 sometimes it stays at 0 without being 100% broke. in that state you cant use kit or fix it with any meds (i only saw it few times, and only on limbs but never recorded it)
In my opinion, sprinting is out of the question if you had just done surgery on a leg (the current medical system it just doesn't make any sense) ads speed should be affected if you had done surgery on your arm. That doesn't mean you can't sprint and ads after doing surgery, you are just at a combat disadvantage your character will make more noise move slower and have their stitches open up again. I think that kind of immersive realism in my opinion should have been in the medical system a long time ago, that level of immersive detail should have been accounted for during development of the surgery system as a counterbalance of any aggressive combat play styles.
Interesting, a lot of things to consider. I will still probably use surv12 if i can as the other drawbacks arent as big. I think what your video demonstrated the most is there is very little difference between the two in most realistic cases. One thing you also could have timed is how long it takes to cancel surgery for each, as in oh shit steps near me gotta have gun ready situation. I feel like that would be the deal-maker/breaker for me. As for what to test next? Grenades - how they do damage and if there is any significant damage behavioural differences, best ways to survive them and so forth.
when I can get the Surv12 and can make sure I have it in my carry out bag, I always have one. It’s just better. Don’t have to carry a fruit roll up if I’m low on space. It gives me more health back. Lasts longer. CMS isn’t useless, especially on standard, but it sits in a med case if I don’t sell it labeled “Therapist-“
I think one aspect you leave out is what if you only have one CMS vs one SURV 12 in a raid. Then you get 7 blacked limbs throughout the raid. What if you can’t find another CMS kit? Then you gotta pop painkillers the rest of the raid (if leg is blacked) while constantly losing HP while running, or otherwise having to walk the rest of the raid. Plus water and energy depletion from painkillers: my point is that it can create big chain reactions of a shitty situation. I use SURV 12 for these life-preserving facts. If you find big money or important items, the Surv 12 can be removed from Gamma container and, per-slot, that loot adds up big time. Then buy another Surv 12 if you die. You’ll have far less times of buying a new SURV-12 compared to buying new CMS kits possibly every-other raid if you do a couple surgeries per raid. If I didn’t have EOD, I might consider the CMS kits more.
If I'm going thick and planning a long raid I bring a surv. Lesser geared raids I bring a cms. The only thing I consider when deciding to use a cms vs surv12 is the amount of uses. Later in the wipe I bring survs because I tend to stay in raid longer and get more blacked limbs. If I'm gonna die, most of the time it's a one tap out of nowhere or some chad with a mk47 with bp so the extra health from a surv12 doesn't change the ttk.
This really comes down to how long do you want to stay out of the fight for better HP, or getting back into the fight to put rounds down range and possibly kill your opponent.
In my opinion, both kits are not specifically made to fight after use, they are more to ducktape your limbs well enough to be able to get out of the raid without having to worry about the cons of having blacked out legs or an abbysmal aim
I always used a CMS because I never lived long enough to do more than 2 or 3 surguries, but after getting better a PMC fucked me up one day before I killed him. Both arms, both legs, and my stomach were blacked. I used 5 out of 5 uses of my CMS and realized real quick that I had to upgrade to a surv12.
I might be in the minority but I rearly take the CMS kit and Surv12 kits .My reasoning is simple: most of my fights end quickly, either I kill the other person or I get killed. More then 50% of the time I don't even have a chance to heal. Also this wipe I the amount of times my limbs got blacked is miniscule and most of the time I was close to the extract and a simple long lasting painkiller could get me throught to the extract. I just carry something to stop a heavy bleed and a simple IFAK. And my secure container has another IFAK, a splint and an Ibuprofen.
In the secure container is one slot more a lot of space. And too often I had to move the surgery-kits into my backpack. That's why i chose the smaller and cheaper kit.
i have EOD and am at lvl 38, ca 950hr playtime and at my second wipe. up to quite recently I went with CMS + splinters but as I've found/crafted more SURV12 I've changed to them instead. It had been some years between my wipes so came back real rusty so when I realized SURV12 also repairs broken limbs I made the switch. i know you mentioned it but you didnt consider it to the equation and honestly it's probably a very low cost to add but still a cost if you wanna account for SURV12's full potential. i'm talking bout adding splinters along your cms kit if I confused anybody. nice deep dive on this question Veritas! interesting to see
I use CMS kits only. Imo, the $3k difference in price per use does not out-weigh the loss of one container slot. I can only think of once or twice where I did 3-4 surgeries in a single raid. Also CMS kits are far faster to use. There is no worse feeling than starting surgery, then hearing footsteps
Which surgical kit did you use before this video? Are you going to change after watching it?
Cms and I’m not changing. There’s not really any point vs a free slot in the gamma. TTK is so fast it’s irrelevant. Only time I used to use the surv was simply down to it having more uses.
Whatever was available and thats imo how it should be. Sometimes when you're duoing its good to start with SURV and other times you find extra CMS or SURVs anyway.
Neither is better or worse they're both good options.
I use whichever one I find after my limb gets blacked out. In 4 years of playing I rarely bring one into raid because it's always the first thing I'm taking out, and I always am able to find one while looting.
Mostly CMS before. I'm a F2P player without EOD so space in my ass is everything and the CMS is more modular and easier to discard for me to shove higher value loot up there.
Sticking with Surv12 cause i survive around 4-6 times in 100 Raids with less than 30-40 HP or the argued flesh Damage of the additional bullet to kill. Furthermore i tend to look at my HP in raid and if it drops below 400 i try to leave the raid and don't seek more PvP Encounters. But i got the EoD and around 4 thousand hours and don't care about the cost and more about the boost of moral. None the less its an informative and great video. THX for the Analysis.
Only veritas would create an entire simulation to analyze and test things in tarkov. You're the real hero
so true
I think you're forgetting a big factor in the decision. How often do you have to use the kit? If you use a CMS, basically every bullet will re-black that repaired limb in a single bullet. Meanwhile a SURV12 will leave enough HP that AP rounds like 5.45 BS and M855A1 and stray buckshot pellets will not black the leg from a single hit. Not to mention if you repair all your limbs, getting legged can black all the limbs all over again very quickly if they were repaired with a CMS. I think its clear the number of bullets you can take to survive is basically the same between the two, but having limbs blacked more frequently means your 5 use CMS will run out more often in raid, you'll eat more 16 second surgery periods, and you're more likely to be suffering the black limb debuff during a fight which can hurt your aim or cause you to limp if you don't pre-med.
Personally, I'll take the 4 second time loss for the chance to avoid the various annoyances that come with more frequent blacked out limbs each raid.
this, cms users are plebs
i 100% agree on this
This man has a point.
5.45 BS and M855A1 are, frankly, unpopular rounds. I don't know why you're making your decisions based on such edge cases, and also just for the case of it being less annoying when the video isn't about how annoying they are
obviously its your choice, and your reasoning besides those points is fine
@@skmojoed huh? Those aren't unpopular rounds. Also, the video is about which surgical kit is better to use when you look past the clickbait title. Less annoying = more usable.
I think we need to take into consideration the amount of times that limb will be re-blacked when shot again. When I use the cms kit I find myself repairing the same limb 3-4 times bc of it gets hit by one bullet or pellet it’s blacked again, when I use the surv 12 it keeps enough hp to eat a bullet and not black out
Good if you want to level surgery!
not that relevant because most ammo will black out most previously blacked limbs anyway, 80 ish% of the time with one shot.
I find myself using the CMS only once. Cause the second time I get into a firefight, I'm dead.
@@mrjonjoe1895 higher pen ammo like bs 5.45 won't black you with a surv12
Who ever said that thorax and head black outs are bugs? There is no in-game reference (and none outside) that states thorax and head are supposed to insta-kill you.
BUT we DO have in-game reference to blacked out limbs as a whole. You roll dice any time a limb blacks out, it might kill you or not (either arms or thorax from my experience), it just feels like thorax chance to kill you is higher. And that's probably the truth of the matter
CMS+ALU has always been my go-to. Its lighter and does pretty much the same thing faster. That extra HP rarely matters since youre not repairing the thorax or head
One thing I always loved about surv was that in one go it can do black limb+broken limb at the same time if the same limb
Extra HP will not save your life most likely but often will save you form getting this lim blacked out again. So better is to take splin in to pockets and this extra slot in container for survkit instead of cms.
@@thalus5990 that’s what I do for now surv with heavy/light bleed and splint hot keyed in pockets
@@ktg_2castle960 why even waist a hotkey with a light bleed bandage as all healing items barely use any amount when healing a light bleed and your also getting your arm or whatever healed while stopping the light bleed that only takes 1 health point per second meaning it could be counteracted by a propital
@@TheCrazzyGuy11 eh idk it’s just fun for me hahah
I just want to say that I really like your videos man. All the in-depth analysis of tarkov stuff you make is top tier.
There was one more thing I think you may have skipped over Veritas, and that is convenience between raids. A CMS after a thorough raid with fights would likely need to be replaced as a CMS would likely only have half of it's uses at the end. This means that in-between raids, players would likely want to swap out the CMS more frequently. This is the main reason why I use the Surv-12 kit myself as I would typically forget to get a fresh CMS kit and be down a limb or two in raid as I didn't have enough uses. I rarely run into that issue with the Surv-12 kits which is why I still use it to this day. On top of that, (and I know this situation is niche) I also help a lot of newer players learn the game and more often than not, these players either don't have surgical kits, or forget to bring one. The Surv-12 helps out in these scenarios, because I have plenty of uses on my Surv-12 kit to share with my squad-mates and therefore increase our effectiveness and survivability. Just my two cents though...
Awesome vid, V! I usually go with the CMS/alu-splint myself. Tthough, I can see having a surv if playing in duo/groups mostly for the amount of usages it has.
Thank you for the well thought through and data driven content. In addition to the increased time to kill, I personally use the Surv12 for a couple reasons that weren't listed in the video.
To keep in theme with the non-subjective comparison of shots to kill, we could also consider how many shots it takes to black out a repaired limb. In nearly every case, the CMS will leave you with under 32 HP. Every round commonly used will black out that limb with one shot assuming it isn't dealing with the velocity changes. Having the ability to get hit once and still run or stabilize aim can be crucial in a gunfight and may prove to be a major factor that enables you to live through the engagement.
A more subjective conversation is the true cost of the meds. Running a CMS means you likely run a splint of some kind with cost and space implications. In the same vein, a CMS has a diminished value around 40-60% of its use where only having 2 or 3 uses could cause a player to opt for a new CMS rather than risk running out mid raid. The Surv12 can be used much further in this regard getting to roughly 20% of its use before meeting that same criteria.
I feel it's a bit of a give or take situation, and while I do agree a lot of times when your engaged you've already popped pain meds, which won't stop blacked out limb shakes but will let you keep sprinting, the advantagous are very situation dependant, time cost is a huge factor and if your solo your not likely to cms or surv if you have close contact, which is a majority of scenarios most players find themselves in.
There's also the fact that broken limbs can happen without a blacked out one, so while it is a bonus for a surv to heal broken limbs it's a waste to only heal a broken limb with a 20 sec use. In CQB it's a rather moot point, and even mid range engagements typically and quickly become CQB in a lot of instances, a CMS would be more time effective. A surv would be great in long range if you need to cross a point and you have no pain meds while taking fire but those engagements are a dime a dozen.
@@NarutoMagicCyclops It definitely is a give or take. I don’t feel pain meds really play a part in the discussion as it is independent of the use of a CMS or Surv. What we’re talking about in context of blacked out limbs is whether or not your limb will be blacked out. Whether you’re on pain killers or not, that changes a 2-5 second heal to a 15-20 second surgery as well as the potential negative effects that blacked limb has.
Regardless of play, the decision to do surgery typically is done in situations where you feel you have at least 15-20 seconds. This is where I don’t feel the additional 5 seconds really has a major impact. The number of times that 5 seconds would made a difference is near nonexistent.
I bring the blacked out limb scenario in because I frequently find myself in a second engagement after having been in a fight where I may have lost an arm and/or leg that has been repaired in surgery. I can feel the difference in having CMSed and Surved when in those secondary engagements. After a CMS, I will never have a red limb. It’s either good or blacked. Once I switch to a surv in the wipe I find myself with red limbs that I can do a 3 second heal in most situations and be back in the fight full HP.
Edit: I couldn’t read your whole post on mobile so to just touch on the split piece you brought up. Even with a surv I typically run an Alu split as well. I prefer having the ability to quickly heal a break quickly, but it’s not necessarily needed when running a surv which is why I included it in the subjective section of my original comment. Outside of scavs for some reason, I find I rarely have a break without a blacked out limb in combat. I find that is much more common from falls etc.
Seeing as I never get past Epsilon and usually don't get past Bravo, the CMS is used to save space for the more important things, like docs case and other High Value Loot.
Edit: After watching the video in full, I would still prefer the Surv12 with my slower play style. That being said, I still don't have the container space.
yea i used to force through the levels and farm 60rnds at woods to get through punisher early game as its much easier because more weapons n armor needed for those quests are cheaper
Get EOD dude.
@@IIchicgo 🤓
Imagine playing multiple wipes and still not getting EOD lol, I dont understand these people.
@@jaydenshepard7928 I do it for the challenge, I never continue to play tarkov when ive done my quests. I get bored
im glad you re visited this. I've been running CMS + alum splint for the same reasons u stated. speed of use. the ability to move items around for high value items in gamma container
and cheaper cost over the long term.
Cms before vid and after. Not changing. The 4 sec difference and the fact that 75% of my raids I never need to use it and on flea I can get 1 cms for 15-20k roubles. It's cms all the way for me. Awesome vid as always V
Playing for 2 years and this choice in the game always crosses my mind. My favorite map is Reserve, paracord in my gamma is always a consideration. That kinda made me use CMS Alu combo. A lot. Thank yu for making feel reassured to not go back. BESIDES if it’s an argument of uses. You think the low use count is a sign for you get out of raid and reset. I’d fix limbs off AI. You’d be dead by a player with this head eyes bug lol
This is what I think a better simulation to do for comparing those two kit imo.
1. start with full health.
2. generate a number from 1 to shots to kill in that situation (leg meta or common distribution), and use it as shots hit on the player.
3. fix blacked out limb and regenerate to full.
4. repeat 2. and 3. til character dies and get the average total shots to kill
This simulation is better imo because sometimes u don't always get killed in a fight. This take in to account of the "reblacking" of a fixed limb, the total uses of the kit, and the randomness of fight.
The result might be interesting to see.
my thing has been cms/alu for solo play and surv12 for group play. I'm usually playing with my lower level friends who don't have their own kits so the extra uses can be useful! love the vid
2:03 when recording a scrolling website I recommend pressing MMB for smoother panning
Didn't work on the PC I was using at the time for some reason and couldn't be bothered to google why XD
Objectively, you make the most informational videos about the subtle yet complex parts of the game... personally I use Surv kits. (jumps out of windows, willing to take damage for flashy kill - level 67 plays like it's COD sometimes giga chad). i often do jumps on purpose that damage limbs/cause fractures. having a larger pool of health on the limb while fractured let's me sprint further before blacking it/adding the multiplier to damage if shot in it. TLDR in my head, more health on limbs = more good for my jumpy parkour playstyle
You don't want to be 5 seconds away from danger when doing surgery, the same way you don't want to repack magazines in the middle of a firefight. Though it can be cancelled in an emergency, ideally what you want is as much time/distance between you and the danger before using that CMS/Surv12.
Propital or adrenaline is how you create that distance and regain stamina/weapon control in the first place (can't reach cover if you're limping around while trying to shoot or trying to regain HP). By the time you reach that safe spot, that propital will have done most of the job and kept you able to fight/suppress/evade on your way there. You can then fix those limbs to get back in the fight. Also keep in mind that having one of those CALOK-B/cheap tourniquet on speed dial is what prevents those heavy bleeds in the first place, and much faster than your usual salewa.
1. Stim for pain/stamina/health regen
(Gives you the ability to finish the threat or evade it)
2. Heavy bleeds
(Everything below that once you've created enough distance or with sufficient cover)
3. Light bleeds
4. Torso/head HP (AI-2 is ideal for that)
5. Surgery
6. Check armor HP + remaining ammo
7. Food/drink (surgery and stims will dry you up very quickly)
First 3 steps you can do while evading the threat and still being in that "danger zone", the last 4 should only be done when you're in a safe spot.
*Quick note*: stay on the move and relocate, you don't want a huge blood trail pointing directly at your "safe spot".
I’m a hardcore lurker and casual tarkov player but I had to comment to say this was one of the best and well created vids on RUclips I’ve ever seen. Info all clear and well delivered, and the lengths you went to for data is awesome! So cool love the vid.
Respect for all the hard work you put in this kind of videos , i feel like you dont get enough recognition for all this awesome work, also i love that you dont fall into the typical " this is the best or this is the meta" that every tarkov youtuber gets into, but you rather ask the proper questions for us to answer and makes us use our gamer brains, big kudos veritas, keep it up!!!
I think another thing to consider is, as others have mentioned before, that limbs get „re-blacked out“ more with the CMS. I‘d like to say that I find that to not only be a problem in terms of needing more uses of the CMS or the added vulnerability in terms of damage on the blacked limb, but also the drawback of being less effective in a fight more often, due to perhaps not being able to move properly with a blacked out leg (if you didn‘t pre-med), worse aim in a mid to long distance fight with blacked out arms, giving away your position with coughing or being screwed by lack of energy when you lost your stomach for to long in total (which is not that unlikely due to many meta armors not protecting the stomach). All of these can also get you killed even if it takes the enemy the same amount of shots as it would have if you were max health all around, so the fact that the Surv12 gives you more HP back is imo even more important with regard to that than maybe a half a shot on average more to kill you to a leg.
I get this question asked very often by clan members that are new to the game, i usually respond acordingly to their edition of the game. If you have a standard edition with Alpha container or the one with beta container it's always gonna be CMS, while in EoD owners case it's gonna be CMS into Surv12 as your account progresses in wipe. The main reason is the space that you have avalible in your secure case, obviously you want to take painkillers with you, but you don't want to pay over 20k for the good ones every raid so you shove them in your butt, next slots are the extra ammo you might wanna take, a doc case and the previously mentioned surgical kit. For me those are the essentials and they take up 6 slots (If they enjoy PvP, like i do injector case would be handy, so it's technically 7 slots), which in case of standard edition users is kinda bad bcs they have to give up on something before they can barter beta from peacekeeper. Taking all this into consideration, imo you should have at least Epsilon to use a Surv12 without wasting slots. Tldr; Slots valuable, Surv only when Epsilon
You won my subscription by writing code to solve Tarkov issues. Love this.
I will always use the best value item i can that's available to me. In my scenario with a gamma container, a Surv-12 will always be the better option. You get back more of your limb after completing surgery, and each use of the surgery kit costs considerably less than the CMS. the extra slot over a CMS is negligible to me with a gamma container. it's a win-win scenario.
This is my first wipe and I have a standard account. I typically use the CMS because it fits well into my BETA container (I upgraded within the game, not upgrade account). I rarely live long enough to worry about doing surgery on the same limb more than once. If I find a SURV-12, I try to get out with it and sell it on.
Holy fucking shit, you actually wrote an entire sim for this video. Instant sub!
Playing solo u generally do more loot runs and have higher priority on secure container space. When playing with buddies(tend to be both newer and regularly less prepared than most partners of mine) I will bring a surv kit so I can comfortably share heaps with lower level friends. I also hate not having my meds when I need them. Tarkov seems to be a game where when you are prepared you don't need to be. And when you aren't prepared, you should have been. So with meds, I prefer preparedness. I have played for 7 wipes, I have over 3000 hours and have almost always had the EOD Version. So you know my background, thank you veritas for doing this elevated quality of research. I respect the science of it. And your ability to elaborate well with elequence.
I would argue that the difference between the number of rounds to kill, even when 1 or less, is still very impactful. We can say a difference between 4.5 and 5.2 bullets is very small at 0.7, but when viewing it from a perspective of 'breakpoints', that is 1 less bullet that you can take in a close fight when using the CMS on average. Sure there are some scenarios where the rounds to kill was within the same breakpoint, and so no extra value is derived, but the number of scenarios where the gap crossed a breakpoint appeared to be significant.
I think some people may even argue that with the very low time-to-kill or bullet-to-kill experience that we currently have in tarkov, being able to survive 1 more bullet from something like a semi-auto RFB may well be worth the extra slot in our buttstash.
Now, whether or not we are sweaty enough to consider ourselves 'good enough players' to view 1 more bullet as enough of a margin between a win and a loss of a fight is another story. I would love to see actual tarkov data on the number of players killed by face-taps compared to other hit locations, to use as an average to say "well, x % of the time you are going to die to this, but the remaining y percent of the time having the bigger surv kit may have merit." But that data is likely not every going to be in player hands.
really good comparison between the two surgical kits, ill personally keep using the cms and pack a splint into raid since the difference is very miniscule thank you for this video
This was very interesting. Thank you for taking the time to do this.
we miss your videos. hopefully your enjoying the game though
I use CMS because I use them for very different reasons than your tests. The way I find the surgical kits saving my life is:
Be able to run, no shaky hands, no starved to death after blacked stomach.
Basically, I use the surgical kits to keep me in combat-ready status over the HP values they bring back.
Very deep analysis of this mechanics, nothing is left to wonder!
I'm a surv guy, useful to fix a limb while treating broken bones at the same time.
The cost is low enough that i don't mind throwing it away for good loot.
And also i'm the one that never run out of surgical kit when friends are in need.
another consideration is that when taking a surv12 out of your secure container, you need a 3x1 slot to put it into. So, your rig needs a 3x1 if you are no backpack extracting. niche scenario, but I do so a lot when questing on certain maps.
He didn't mention that with Surv12, assuming you don't find GPU's or whatever, you get a lot of raids/uses out of each kit.
With CMS kit, after even 2 uses you are taking a huge risk not bringing in a fresh one, which means you gotta risk the one with 3 left and bring a new one, causing CMS to cost significantly more rubles in the long run.
great point!
Bruh there's no way you're needing to CMS more than 3 times per raid like if you've taken that much damage it's time to get the fuck out and reset lol not keeping shit with no meds.
@@zackbobby5550 You havent had 3 black limbs after big fights, a ton of times?
@@ayamehachimitsu Well, I used to, but I definitely feel like with how damage spread and inertia has changed I haven't that much this wipe. If you peak far enough out to lose 3 limbs you're not getting back into cover fast enough to dodge another round. I will take a CMS kit with 2 uses but not 1. If I lose 3 limbs and only have 2 uses, I'm taking a painkiller, and I'm fixing my legs and making my way to extract/finish my quest quietly. The painkiller will deal with a lot of the negatives of a blacked arm, but it doesn't allow you to sprint on a blacked leg. If you've been in such an intense firefight that you've lost 3 limbs and survived, chances are your armor is fucked, you're low on ammo, you're low on meds healing all your shit back, and you're probably heavy with the other guy's gear. In that situation you want to patch your legs and gtfo even if you had more than 2 uses I still probably wouldn't do my arm that shit is way too loud and takes way too long and from there on out I am avoiding fights whether I have my arm or not.
@@zackbobby5550 All very true. Ive just been very unfortunate to be in a "quiet" corner consistently while healing my stomach and 3 limbs. Im pretty sure im 1 bullet of any caliber to death and I can hear the cms cutting noise in my nightmares xD
Sick video. Insane detail.
Having been doing a Standard account run this wipe, I usually keep a CMS in my container for use as needed, but with its relative high availability, if I need to put something else in those slots, I am willing to swap it out and wont mourn its loss if I die afterwards
Also I know I am a bit of a odd duck in how I run ammo in raids, preferring a military style loadout in nature (though the ammo used can vary depending on what I am planning on doing)
As a fellow Standard edition enjoyer, i recommend just buying the Beta container from peacekeeper for about a million roubles, which is in my opinion, completly worth it, stuff it with a docs case and with the surv kit, carry more pills or an injector case in the last slot and grind the prapor untill you get the epsilon.
@@СергійКузніченко
Does Peacekeeper offer it for such? All I see is a barter offer there
@@LeonSteelpaw he means the approximate value of the the barter items being close to 1mil rubes if you were to buy them on flea
I almost always use surv 12, never been bothered by the slower use time or larger size. I only ever take CMS to reserve so I can fit paracord in my gama.
Great video. I'd like to see a simulation where the player is equipped with a randomly selected, commonly used armor. Then, a random weapon is chosen and it will have either a popular budget choice ammo or a popular meta ammo selected randomly. Each limb will then be zeroed and re-healed 0-2 times randomly with which ever surgical kit is being tested and the body armor will be shot with the selected ammo type 0-2 times. Fully restore the player's HP, then randomly shoot body parts, including the head, until they die and count the rounds. Repeat for the other surgical kit in the same circumstances, record the result, and then repeat the entire simulation until a large sample size is obtained.
I think that it's good to filter out headshots to determine which kit is better, but including headshots helps determine if there is any point to it in the first place. I think this test, unless I heard wrong, does not pre-damage the armor for the second conflict, which I think would increase the importance of having more HP depending on how badly their ammo damages armor on-hit and how many times they were hit in the chest but managed to heal. I know that latter case isn't part of the current simulation but rarely do you have full armor after an engagement where you are wounded so badly.
veritas continuing to have, bar none, the most in depth dives into how this game works.
The surv12 is nice due to the many uses it has. Very good with squads, especially if people are running EOD or at least beta in the early game. Surv12 also wins on how many shots one can take and extract, because if the cms is low youll need a crapton of painkillers to get out, especially on a map like shoreline or woods. Pretty much everything else is negligible.
Fascinating. We're fortunate to have you putting out analyses like these for the EFT community. I'll be sticking with the CMS
having a gamma container has made it an easy choice to take the surv12 kit whenever i can get my hands on one. and even when the data shows the hp difference between the surgical kits is maybe onlly a single bullet, i guess the confidence i get with higher hp limbs is allowing me not to play scared even when they get damaged
Before this video, I was using the free CMS you get with EOD but once those ran out, I was fucking happy when I found a Serv12 in raid. Has served me well so far.
Now that I've unlocked my medical bay in the hideout yesterday, I've noticed the CMS are much easier to craft and as you said, only take up 2 spots in your Gamma and are a few sec quicker - which can make the difference in the middle of a gunfight.
I'll be sticking with the CMS from now on and just sell the Serv12 on FM when I create them.
I actually own the 12 survivors first aid kit.
Used it twice, it had what I needed both times.
you mean irl? Whyd you have to use it?
@@marthflores3515
Obviously IRL.
Both times to treat injuries...
Once for a deep cut and once for a laceration from a hard fall on rocky ground.
@@martindrengenxbox360 holy shit that fall sounds scary but amen you're good I trust the surv12 now in game Haha
I have one major sissues with your propabilistic method. The lack consideration of standard deviation. Image both scenarios (numbers are made up): there are 5% chances to die to 1 bullet, 90% you die to 2, and 5% you die to 3. Second scenario, 35% you die to 1 bullet, 30% 2 bullets and 35% 3. In both scenarios the average is 2 bullets to kill, but in second you have it is 7 times more likely you survive 2 shoots. That is massive difference that you did not consider with just a mean.
Dude this is great. Classic V science but the simulation stuff you're doing really sets you apart, also heres a comment for engagement
Been running the Surv if I have the room to for the extra HP/re-usability across multiple raids. Managing your legs/mitigating a mobility kill with meds (preferably prop or adrenaline) is almost always better in a fight than trying to CMS. Unfortunately in the current setup running it from the rip means EOD account or get stuffed. A Surv, a Salewa, and a pocket morphine are pretty optimal budget meds IMHO.
ETA: I finished the video. I think that something that may not have been accounted for here that plays out very differently in real games is bleeding management or mobility management. A bleed on CMS healed limb versus a Surv Healed limb is going to be a huge difference. With a Surv Healed limb you simply have more time available to manage your meds before you have to worry about your limb being blacked again. Another pretty important factor is also going to be how many rounds a leg can take before it gets re-blacked. Even one or two extra rounds for preventing a mobility kill Is going to be a huge deal.
I also think you missed a great opportunity by not running a scenario that simulates the dreaded sniper shotgun scav; I suspect damage drop off from range (and to a lesser extent pellet spread) would significantly increase the number of hits you can survive with the Surv relative to the CMS.
Great content! Loved the scientific method employed. Personally, I run the CMS until max hideout. Once I am no longer needing the extra space in my secure container to drag out loot, I switch to Surv12 around level 35 or so. I am confident that the extra hp saved not only can save you a worthwhile amount of times, but the amount of times it prevented me from losing a critical limb and stay combat effective is a stacking benefit, especially with the viability of shotguns seemingly up this wipe.
I've always ran the Surv-12 in the Gamma. I don't really play solo much and I normally play with friends that don't have EOD. There have been so many times where I've been asked for a surgery kit and having more than 5 uses is really useful. I also really appreciate the more health even though the test showed you survive 1 more bullet normally there have been times where I've been insanely low health. An example being yesterday surviving a fight in resort on 21 HP with only head and thorax and having to fix all 4 limbs and stomach then after surviving a wild Scav with a shotgun towards Lighthouse extract.
It’s convenience for me. If I have a bunch of Aluminum splints I’ll buy CMS kits. If I’m out of both and I need to buy one I’ll go with a surv 12 and that will last a while for me or until I swap it out and die with it in my rig. By then I picked up a splint or CMS and will buy what I’m missing and rinse and repeat pretty much. I don’t like the long heal time, like the better heal %, but will also use stims in a pinch so I can usually get to cover or finish the fight. Either way we all die a bunch. Really love the statistical analysis here and not wasting time with in game frustration and resources and time. Love thinking smarter
The amount of times the Surv12 has saved my life is crazy, either a scav randomly blacked a limb and I had to go PVP, I fell and broke my leg or my arm got broken, the Surv12 will always be there, for me its obvious, Surv12.
I love the science content, I think it was a mistake to change so many variables in each scenario but the results are still interesting to see. IMO you should've had the PMC wear a standard armor and be full health throughout all the scenarios, if you wanted to run a second set of the same scenarios with a different PMC loadout/health value it would be easier to factor out how the variables affected the results.
Concur. Should be the same parts repaired in each "iteration" so you have a true comparison.
It could be that even when you control that, the shots to kill variability is ~1, but with the current trials it seems like conditions were chosen to reach an outcome
honestly its very situational. if i’m going for cqb like dorms, bunker, resort or factory its defo cms. if not its surv12. another factor is if i’m carrying a backpack or not.
Awesome video, as always! I personally go with the CMS, simply because it saves space. I like being able to take double stacks of ammo in my Gamma, or more high-value loot. To me that easily pays off - the number of times where I have had multiple blacked-out limbs, put them back on with the CMS and THEN gotten killed where a Surv12 would have saved me could probably be counted on one hand. I think the only time I would really consider using a Surv12 is if I got Kappa, which I never bother with.
Another test I think would be interesting comparing is how many shots it takes to black out limbs that have had surgery done, whether through direct damage or damage through other blacked out limbs.
When fighting at close range HTK is nearly all that counts, but with mid-long range fights things like scope stamina start to matter more, so the effect of a blacked out arm becomes more of an issue. Also, these longer fights may have a long amount of time for healing in between shootouts which means depending on how many limbs are blacked out when using a SURV12 or a CMS one or the other may be quicker to restore you fully.
Veritas putting in the WORK as per usual. This game has so much hidden depth it’s nice to have him hold my hand and explain this stuff to me.
Great analysis, Veritas. I would like to add that damage inflicted by rounds is not the only relevant damage in the game. The ridiculous number of times I black my legs due to fall damage I feel like I need every single health point to not do it again immediately
great info as always, loved the random shot from around tarkov too :)
I love this type of content and I really want to see a destructability test for armor and see how many bullets a particular vest can stop from a variety of ammo
I go for the big boy because I like how I can carry 6 slots worth of CMS uses in 3 slots, and I can skimp on bringing splints. I then pack one AFAK, which brings me up to only 4 slots used, and I’m able to recover from anything type of injury, for one really bad or two moderate bad encounters I manage to survive. I bought EOD, so I’ve got 5 more slots left for other items. I usually bring my key ring and dog tag case, leaving me with 3 wild card slots I will put other half used med kits, pain meds, CALOK to stop heavy bleeds and spare my AFAK some uses, but I tend to avoid bringing in stuff to stop light bleeds, and I just toss an army bandage or whatever I find in my belt instead.
Those last 3 slots are where I put items I need for a quest, like markers, I might throw emergency water rations and something to eat for those long raids where I get shit luck finding provisions along the way, so I don’t die trying to exfil. Most of the time I’ll bring a nearly used up AFAK or single use item to stop bleeds so I have room for good loot If I find it.
I don’t mind the cost for those items because it pays for itself over time. If I loot Grizzlies I keep those in my stash so I can heal for free right before I’m ready for my next raid. That way I heal over time as much as I can while I sell stuff, and go for a Scav run if it’s up.
If I have a to of splints on hand I’ll leave bones broken after a raid too, and use those because I loot them all the time and never carry them in my secure container, so I can either sell them or use them.
I use a CMS.
A CMS and an alu splint takes up the same amount of space as a surv12 but gives you more flexibility for how that space is arranged as well as more flexibility for throwing items out of your secure container for looted valuables.
The CMS and definitely the alu splint are faster to use than a surv12 (even if you have to both do surgery AND splint a fracture) and they weigh less combined than a surv12.
The only redeeming factor for the surv12 is the max health reduction being less than on the CMS, but I'm willing to gamble on that for the benefits of a CMS and an alu splint.
I used to use the surv12 before this wipe. This wipe I’ve been using cms simply because it saves space and availability. I’ll likely go back to Surv12 after this as I usually die and my secure loot is no longer FIR.
Thanks for another great tarkov science video I love these and the critical analytical thinking that goes into them
I didnt even know I didnt have notifications on for your channel until you mentioned it. I got notifications for every video you've uploaded since I subbed so I didnt even think about it.
Edit: side note (4:20 , haha funny number in the time stamp), I've gotten and seen others get blacked heads quite a few times. You're right that you cant surgery a blacked head or thorax (impossible because you're dead at that point), but you can still survive a blacked head from full hp(or near, idk, havent done testing on it but I'm usually not 100% hp in my raids). Dont know if you were saying it, but the context implied a blacked head is guaranteed death. Dont know if this is just a visual bug where the player has 0 hp so it rounds down to the next whole number, displaying 0 and a blacked limb or something, or if you're just allowed to survive a blacked head. It makes sense you wouldnt be able to perform surgery on your own head ("I cant see my forehead" -Patrick Star), but I'm not quite sure if you're supposed to be alive with a head at 0 hp.
I use the surv12 not because I need all 15 uses in 1 raid, but because i often use 3/5 or 4/5 uses of the CMS, and I dont want to go into raid with a mostly used CMS. The surv12 can be used over multiple raids without worrying about not having enough uses. Plus I don't put a lot in my gamma and I usually have 2 or 3 empty slots, so I'm not worried about space. The only issue I deal with is time, but I usually get to a safe enough position.
Where it Surv12 shines is when multiple limbs have been blacked out for example with two limbs balcked out the CMS (25-45%) could return between 30 - 60.75hp while the surv12(60-72%) could return 72 - 97.2hp this is a huge difference
I once had the same limb blacked out 3 or 4 times in a single raid, and if I remember correctly, it was only that limb that ever got blacked out. It was down to single digit HP by the end.
I also don't recall if I used CMS or Surv12, it's been a while.
But taking that into consideration, having more health on my limb in general, especially after consecutive times, Surv12 is more worth it. Nowadays with a lot of changes to the containers, there's only so much that you can and would want to put into it. These days, I pretty much only have a SICC or Docs, Surv12, then an extra heal (1x1, IFAK or AFAK), painkiller in the form of vaseline, balm or ibuprofen, and then I either have extra bullets, especially if it's high cost ammo.. Or I roll with an alu splint and a calok-b, and the calok will be replaced with injection case, so it's pretty much then just Alu Splint for those times you might break a limb but not black it out, or a stack of ammo.
So for me personally, and I do have the Gamma container obviously, I'll have multiple things I can toss out for a GPU or whatever. The Surv12 for me is usually not the first thing that goes out. Not to mention it's a usage cost, and you can share the Surv12 for a group of people.. And by the offchance you have both arms, both legs and stomach blacked out.. You'll still have 10 uses left instead of not even a CMS.
I use the Surv12 Exclusively.. For me personally its not about the time to kill difference more than the likelyness of that limb being blackened by a nuissance scav or someone taking popshots from a distance.
With the CMS it takes a sneeze from a distant player to re Blacken that limb, potentially causing me to limp if i havent got painkillers, or forcing me to stop and heal once again somewhere. Potentially leading to being pushed by players.
Plus the Surv is nice when you forget a splint etc
CMS: Before Strength 51lvl - weight and size. Every gramm matter. And after looting something expensive I swap it with CMS/Surv - so if I die (it is ~35% of raids by stats) I'll lost less.
Surv: Mostly after 51 lvl of strength AND IF I use big backpack or/and "3 hex-line" rig (Alpha). Mostly because with something like Trizip - it is waste of space. But with bigger backpack with loot I wanna have my kit with me after dropping heavy backpack in/before fight.
The Surv 12 doesnt offer nearly as much as the CMS for a multitude of reasons. (If I was any good id do a video reply haha) But, 1 additional slot = min 10k per run. Avg player uses maybe 1-2 uses per run. gives a CMS avg lifespan of, 3-4 raids, lets call it 4 for sake of avgs. And the Surv is 15, gives it the life of lets call it 8 to 10. 4x10 min = 40k per the life of that CMS that is being earned, therefore allowing for it to pay for itself, and its uses, over the course of your raids, and thats purely lost with the Surv 12. With a solid setup, you can have keys, injectors, all meds and 1 free slot available with EOD, keys+expensive meds in upgraded, and not much for alpha, which makes the CMS just stronger there in general. Stronger profit margins, and more cost efficient overall.
I appreciate creating this simulation. Love the video man!
Interesting, the difference is actually lower than expected. Guess Ill keep using CMS; the smaller size and lower cost makes it much less of an opportunity cost. Also got a metric ton of CMS' from looting crack house.
nono it costs more per use on average..
Surv: More limb hp, at the cost of container space, longer animation, and cost (30k is nitpicking but eh)
CMS/ALU: Faster, cheaper, less hp per limb.
As someone who’s had raids where I’ve had to use a CMS 7-9 times (borrowed a teammates) and walked out with limbs at 1/1 hp, I’ll still stick by the CMS compared to surv. Those precious seconds when you dip out of a fight to fix your leg or stomach quickly matter. Surv is great for keeping you healthier in a raid sure, but I’ll take that time advantage over the limb HP any day. We’re at the point in wipe everyone has high flesh/pen rounds like BP/M62/M61 so 90% of the time that extra 18 HP on your arm doesn’t mean anything, it’ll still be blacked out first shot.
The ruthless girlfriend jokes were amusing. Thank you for bringing some Veritas to the Veritas party.
the surv is the same 3 slots as a cms and alu splint, and can do both tasks at the same time if need be. it's also the 1st thing to come out unless i'm running shitty spare ammo. generally more worth, plus the maps i play i find cms's all the time and can use those if i'm in that sticky of a situation
400 grams versus 1200 grams.
16 seconds vs 20 seconds.
2 slots vs 3 slots.
What is there to discuss? The choice is obvious.
id like to see different armor hitboxes pre update and then compare again when they get the custom hitboxes
I mostly run Surv12 just because I don't like to think about whether I should bring 2 CMS kits because one of them is 3/5 or not. I mostly sell my Surv12s when they have less than 4 uses left, so it more of a peace of mind kind of deal for me rather than "is the more HP worth it"
100% this is what it is for me aswell. I lose a lot of limbs it seems by choosing to not shoot at scavs and rather run past to try to sneak around them and sometimes they leg me or arm me mid run and that automatically takes away from the uses and then if you get into a real fair fight most times you will lose at least a limb or two so therefore after my CMS is below 3/5 i toss it so therefore it loses a lot more value because i dont want to not heal a limb as thhis lowers your ttk substantially
There are 2 major differences that make me never ever switch off the Surv12:
1) More HP on average which can vary between 35 and 50ish HP. That one bullet can actually be 2 bullets difference, so yeah WORTH IT. With a CMS you get 10-35HP. That's a HUGE difference to me.
2) The amount of uses
Downsides are
1) a couple of extra seconds but lets be real, if you need 16 seconds to surgery, and you find a safe place and time to do it, those 4 seconds really dont matter that much.
2) one extra slot consumed in your gamma, which really isnt that much of a downside because if i need space, I'll suddenly have 3 and not 2 extra slots in there.
The amount of times I got killed with a 15 HP limb, is beyond me. Especially once your surgery skill goes up, the time is reduced and yeah, you would get a bit more HP with a CMS with that skill too, but a Surv basically gives me 60-100% extra HP at the cost of a slot and 4 seconds... AND I bring a splint with me as well, because spending either 16 or 20 seconds on a broken limb is just stupid if you wanna cheap out on a 15K splint.
Side note: when did you ever get hit by all pellets in a shotgun? That barely ever happens.
Surv12's save lives
I think if the SURV12 had it's own animation for using a splint rather than just doing the full surgery, it would be used more. I use a CMS because I don't want to wait 20 seconds if I break a leg or especially if I break both. Also I don't normally get more than 3 or 4 limbs blacked in a raid so 5 uses if fine for me. Having a quick use splint is worth more to me than a little bit of extra HP on a limb.
I love your Tarkov science videos, there’s no one I trust as much as you to get this stuff right. Keep on testing!
Subbed due to the dedication to create an entire program just to test this and also the logical way you went about testing. Great stuff. Personally, I will continue to use the CMS kit as the advantage provided by the SURV12 isn't enough for me to give up the slot and 4sec difference. Especially when most players just go for the Head, Eyes strat.
I usually bring the CMS. Not because I think its "better" but because it allows me to carry another stack of ammo in my secure container. The difference in the surgery kits usually won't be the reason you die, but running out if ammo definitely can/will lol
you have alpha/beta - cms
you have gamma - surv12
there is one variable that i never seen talked about - glitched limbs : when limb was mend with any kit and went to 0 sometimes it stays at 0 without being 100% broke. in that state you cant use kit or fix it with any meds (i only saw it few times, and only on limbs but never recorded it)
In my opinion, sprinting is out of the question if you had just done surgery on a leg (the current medical system it just doesn't make any sense) ads speed should be affected if you had done surgery on your arm. That doesn't mean you can't sprint and ads after doing surgery, you are just at a combat disadvantage your character will make more noise move slower and have their stitches open up again. I think that kind of immersive realism in my opinion should have been in the medical system a long time ago, that level of immersive detail should have been accounted for during development of the surgery system as a counterbalance of any aggressive combat play styles.
Interesting, a lot of things to consider. I will still probably use surv12 if i can as the other drawbacks arent as big. I think what your video demonstrated the most is there is very little difference between the two in most realistic cases. One thing you also could have timed is how long it takes to cancel surgery for each, as in oh shit steps near me gotta have gun ready situation. I feel like that would be the deal-maker/breaker for me.
As for what to test next? Grenades - how they do damage and if there is any significant damage behavioural differences, best ways to survive them and so forth.
when I can get the Surv12 and can make sure I have it in my carry out bag, I always have one. It’s just better. Don’t have to carry a fruit roll up if I’m low on space. It gives me more health back. Lasts longer. CMS isn’t useless, especially on standard, but it sits in a med case if I don’t sell it labeled “Therapist-“
What an effort of you, man ;) Thank you so much for the information.
I think one aspect you leave out is what if you only have one CMS vs one SURV 12 in a raid. Then you get 7 blacked limbs throughout the raid. What if you can’t find another CMS kit? Then you gotta pop painkillers the rest of the raid (if leg is blacked) while constantly losing HP while running, or otherwise having to walk the rest of the raid. Plus water and energy depletion from painkillers: my point is that it can create big chain reactions of a shitty situation. I use SURV 12 for these life-preserving facts. If you find big money or important items, the Surv 12 can be removed from Gamma container and, per-slot, that loot adds up big time. Then buy another Surv 12 if you die. You’ll have far less times of buying a new SURV-12 compared to buying new CMS kits possibly every-other raid if you do a couple surgeries per raid. If I didn’t have EOD, I might consider the CMS kits more.
If I'm going thick and planning a long raid I bring a surv. Lesser geared raids I bring a cms. The only thing I consider when deciding to use a cms vs surv12 is the amount of uses. Later in the wipe I bring survs because I tend to stay in raid longer and get more blacked limbs. If I'm gonna die, most of the time it's a one tap out of nowhere or some chad with a mk47 with bp so the extra health from a surv12 doesn't change the ttk.
This really comes down to how long do you want to stay out of the fight for better HP, or getting back into the fight to put rounds down range and possibly kill your opponent.
In my opinion, both kits are not specifically made to fight after use, they are more to ducktape your limbs well enough to be able to get out of the raid without having to worry about the cons of having blacked out legs or an abbysmal aim
I always used a CMS because I never lived long enough to do more than 2 or 3 surguries, but after getting better a PMC fucked me up one day before I killed him. Both arms, both legs, and my stomach were blacked. I used 5 out of 5 uses of my CMS and realized real quick that I had to upgrade to a surv12.
I might be in the minority but I rearly take the CMS kit and Surv12 kits .My reasoning is simple: most of my fights end quickly, either I kill the other person or I get killed. More then 50% of the time I don't even have a chance to heal. Also this wipe I the amount of times my limbs got blacked is miniscule and most of the time I was close to the extract and a simple long lasting painkiller could get me throught to the extract.
I just carry something to stop a heavy bleed and a simple IFAK.
And my secure container has another IFAK, a splint and an Ibuprofen.
In the secure container is one slot more a lot of space. And too often I had to move the surgery-kits into my backpack.
That's why i chose the smaller and cheaper kit.
i have EOD and am at lvl 38, ca 950hr playtime and at my second wipe. up
to quite recently I went with CMS + splinters but as I've found/crafted
more SURV12 I've changed to them instead. It had been some years between my wipes so came back real rusty so when I realized SURV12 also repairs broken limbs I made the switch.
i know you mentioned it but you didnt consider it to the equation and honestly it's probably a very low cost to add but still a cost if you wanna account for SURV12's full potential.
i'm talking bout adding splinters along your cms kit if I confused anybody.
nice deep dive on this question Veritas! interesting to see
dude actually coded the entire tarkov health system one video... thats some commitment
Bravo! Another gem from you. Nice work man.
I use CMS kits only. Imo, the $3k difference in price per use does not out-weigh the loss of one container slot. I can only think of once or twice where I did 3-4 surgeries in a single raid. Also CMS kits are far faster to use. There is no worse feeling than starting surgery, then hearing footsteps