Will the SURV12 Actually Save Your Life?
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
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Which surgical kit did you use before this video? Are you going to change after watching it?
Cms and I’m not changing. There’s not really any point vs a free slot in the gamma. TTK is so fast it’s irrelevant. Only time I used to use the surv was simply down to it having more uses.
Whatever was available and thats imo how it should be. Sometimes when you're duoing its good to start with SURV and other times you find extra CMS or SURVs anyway.
Neither is better or worse they're both good options.
I use whichever one I find after my limb gets blacked out. In 4 years of playing I rarely bring one into raid because it's always the first thing I'm taking out, and I always am able to find one while looting.
Mostly CMS before. I'm a F2P player without EOD so space in my ass is everything and the CMS is more modular and easier to discard for me to shove higher value loot up there.
Sticking with Surv12 cause i survive around 4-6 times in 100 Raids with less than 30-40 HP or the argued flesh Damage of the additional bullet to kill. Furthermore i tend to look at my HP in raid and if it drops below 400 i try to leave the raid and don't seek more PvP Encounters. But i got the EoD and around 4 thousand hours and don't care about the cost and more about the boost of moral. None the less its an informative and great video. THX for the Analysis.
Only veritas would create an entire simulation to analyze and test things in tarkov. You're the real hero
so true
I get this question asked very often by clan members that are new to the game, i usually respond acordingly to their edition of the game. If you have a standard edition with Alpha container or the one with beta container it's always gonna be CMS, while in EoD owners case it's gonna be CMS into Surv12 as your account progresses in wipe. The main reason is the space that you have avalible in your secure case, obviously you want to take painkillers with you, but you don't want to pay over 20k for the good ones every raid so you shove them in your butt, next slots are the extra ammo you might wanna take, a doc case and the previously mentioned surgical kit. For me those are the essentials and they take up 6 slots (If they enjoy PvP, like i do injector case would be handy, so it's technically 7 slots), which in case of standard edition users is kinda bad bcs they have to give up on something before they can barter beta from peacekeeper. Taking all this into consideration, imo you should have at least Epsilon to use a Surv12 without wasting slots. Tldr; Slots valuable, Surv only when Epsilon
You don't want to be 5 seconds away from danger when doing surgery, the same way you don't want to repack magazines in the middle of a firefight. Though it can be cancelled in an emergency, ideally what you want is as much time/distance between you and the danger before using that CMS/Surv12.
Propital or adrenaline is how you create that distance and regain stamina/weapon control in the first place (can't reach cover if you're limping around while trying to shoot or trying to regain HP). By the time you reach that safe spot, that propital will have done most of the job and kept you able to fight/suppress/evade on your way there. You can then fix those limbs to get back in the fight. Also keep in mind that having one of those CALOK-B/cheap tourniquet on speed dial is what prevents those heavy bleeds in the first place, and much faster than your usual salewa.
1. Stim for pain/stamina/health regen
(Gives you the ability to finish the threat or evade it)
2. Heavy bleeds
(Everything below that once you've created enough distance or with sufficient cover)
3. Light bleeds
4. Torso/head HP (AI-2 is ideal for that)
5. Surgery
6. Check armor HP + remaining ammo
7. Food/drink (surgery and stims will dry you up very quickly)
First 3 steps you can do while evading the threat and still being in that "danger zone", the last 4 should only be done when you're in a safe spot.
*Quick note*: stay on the move and relocate, you don't want a huge blood trail pointing directly at your "safe spot".
You won my subscription by writing code to solve Tarkov issues. Love this.
I’m a hardcore lurker and casual tarkov player but I had to comment to say this was one of the best and well created vids on RUclips I’ve ever seen. Info all clear and well delivered, and the lengths you went to for data is awesome! So cool love the vid.
They really need to include the both descriptions the difference between the amount of health restored.
If you manage to have some almost used you can take them without worry about throwing them out. So far I would go with CMS just because of use time is stressful. Great video and effrot to make it right! Thanks
Bravo! Another gem from you. Nice work man.
All I got is a beta, so surv12 never enters my mind
well, having a gamma seems cool
I think you're forgetting a big factor in the decision. How often do you have to use the kit? If you use a CMS, basically every bullet will re-black that repaired limb in a single bullet. Meanwhile a SURV12 will leave enough HP that AP rounds like 5.45 BS and M855A1 and stray buckshot pellets will not black the leg from a single hit. Not to mention if you repair all your limbs, getting legged can black all the limbs all over again very quickly if they were repaired with a CMS. I think its clear the number of bullets you can take to survive is basically the same between the two, but having limbs blacked more frequently means your 5 use CMS will run out more often in raid, you'll eat more 16 second surgery periods, and you're more likely to be suffering the black limb debuff during a fight which can hurt your aim or cause you to limp if you don't pre-med.
Personally, I'll take the 4 second time loss for the chance to avoid the various annoyances that come with more frequent blacked out limbs each raid.
this, cms users are plebs
i 100% agree on this
This man has a point.
5.45 BS and M855A1 are, frankly, unpopular rounds. I don't know why you're making your decisions based on such edge cases, and also just for the case of it being less annoying when the video isn't about how annoying they are
obviously its your choice, and your reasoning besides those points is fine
@@skmojoed huh? Those aren't unpopular rounds. Also, the video is about which surgical kit is better to use when you look past the clickbait title. Less annoying = more usable.
I think we need to take into consideration the amount of times that limb will be re-blacked when shot again. When I use the cms kit I find myself repairing the same limb 3-4 times bc of it gets hit by one bullet or pellet it’s blacked again, when I use the surv 12 it keeps enough hp to eat a bullet and not black out
Good if you want to level surgery!
not that relevant because most ammo will black out most previously blacked limbs anyway, 80 ish% of the time with one shot.
I find myself using the CMS only once. Cause the second time I get into a firefight, I'm dead.
@@mrjonjoe1895 higher pen ammo like bs 5.45 won't black you with a surv12
Seeing as I never get past Epsilon and usually don't get past Bravo, the CMS is used to save space for the more important things, like docs case and other High Value Loot.
Edit: After watching the video in full, I would still prefer the Surv12 with my slower play style. That being said, I still don't have the container space.
yea i used to force through the levels and farm 60rnds at woods to get through punisher early game as its much easier because more weapons n armor needed for those quests are cheaper
Get EOD dude.
@@IIchicgo 🤓
Imagine playing multiple wipes and still not getting EOD lol, I dont understand these people.
@@jaydenshepard7928 I do it for the challenge, I never continue to play tarkov when ive done my quests. I get bored
I just want to say that I really like your videos man. All the in-depth analysis of tarkov stuff you make is top tier.
There was one more thing I think you may have skipped over Veritas, and that is convenience between raids. A CMS after a thorough raid with fights would likely need to be replaced as a CMS would likely only have half of it's uses at the end. This means that in-between raids, players would likely want to swap out the CMS more frequently. This is the main reason why I use the Surv-12 kit myself as I would typically forget to get a fresh CMS kit and be down a limb or two in raid as I didn't have enough uses. I rarely run into that issue with the Surv-12 kits which is why I still use it to this day. On top of that, (and I know this situation is niche) I also help a lot of newer players learn the game and more often than not, these players either don't have surgical kits, or forget to bring one. The Surv-12 helps out in these scenarios, because I have plenty of uses on my Surv-12 kit to share with my squad-mates and therefore increase our effectiveness and survivability. Just my two cents though...
Awesome vid, V! I usually go with the CMS/alu-splint myself. Tthough, I can see having a surv if playing in duo/groups mostly for the amount of usages it has.
CMS+ALU has always been my go-to. Its lighter and does pretty much the same thing faster. That extra HP rarely matters since youre not repairing the thorax or head
One thing I always loved about surv was that in one go it can do black limb+broken limb at the same time if the same limb
Extra HP will not save your life most likely but often will save you form getting this lim blacked out again. So better is to take splin in to pockets and this extra slot in container for survkit instead of cms.
@@thalus5990 that’s what I do for now surv with heavy/light bleed and splint hot keyed in pockets
@@ktg_2castle960 why even waist a hotkey with a light bleed bandage as all healing items barely use any amount when healing a light bleed and your also getting your arm or whatever healed while stopping the light bleed that only takes 1 health point per second meaning it could be counteracted by a propital
@@TheCrazzyGuy11 eh idk it’s just fun for me hahah
For me it’s laziness, it’s up to rather I’m feeling like buying multiple CMS kits for every other raid, or leaving the Surv12 in my container for a day or two worth of raids.
Same as well as being able to pass the surv12 to friends so that less people in the group need to carry a surgical kit
Lol that shit will last me like 2 weeks
@@sirismcgee7103 Bet u only cache run.
@@classdpersonnel115 We tried that... ended up biting us a few times when the guys with the surg kit is dead and it's in his container lol
ive surved 9 times in a single raid...
Sick video. Insane detail.
Cms before vid and after. Not changing. The 4 sec difference and the fact that 75% of my raids I never need to use it and on flea I can get 1 cms for 15-20k roubles. It's cms all the way for me. Awesome vid as always V
You incorrectly charted the data for scenario 3.3 (10:52 in the video) 1 point higher, not a huge deal but it is worth noting
Also burst out laughing at the m855 example, its horrendous how little flesh damage 5.56 does
that scenario doesnt really have much to do with the flesh damage of the bullet but rather the pen. its going against lvl 5 stomach armor, thats why it took sooo many bullets in comparison to the rest. i still agree tho that 5.56 is doody
lol 855 took so many shots because gzhel is lvl 5 and protects stomach first you need to wear down the armor
He didn't mention that with Surv12, assuming you don't find GPU's or whatever, you get a lot of raids/uses out of each kit.
With CMS kit, after even 2 uses you are taking a huge risk not bringing in a fresh one, which means you gotta risk the one with 3 left and bring a new one, causing CMS to cost significantly more rubles in the long run.
great point!
Bruh there's no way you're needing to CMS more than 3 times per raid like if you've taken that much damage it's time to get the fuck out and reset lol not keeping shit with no meds.
@@zackbobby5550 You havent had 3 black limbs after big fights, a ton of times?
@@ayamehachimitsu Well, I used to, but I definitely feel like with how damage spread and inertia has changed I haven't that much this wipe. If you peak far enough out to lose 3 limbs you're not getting back into cover fast enough to dodge another round. I will take a CMS kit with 2 uses but not 1. If I lose 3 limbs and only have 2 uses, I'm taking a painkiller, and I'm fixing my legs and making my way to extract/finish my quest quietly. The painkiller will deal with a lot of the negatives of a blacked arm, but it doesn't allow you to sprint on a blacked leg. If you've been in such an intense firefight that you've lost 3 limbs and survived, chances are your armor is fucked, you're low on ammo, you're low on meds healing all your shit back, and you're probably heavy with the other guy's gear. In that situation you want to patch your legs and gtfo even if you had more than 2 uses I still probably wouldn't do my arm that shit is way too loud and takes way too long and from there on out I am avoiding fights whether I have my arm or not.
@@zackbobby5550 All very true. Ive just been very unfortunate to be in a "quiet" corner consistently while healing my stomach and 3 limbs. Im pretty sure im 1 bullet of any caliber to death and I can hear the cms cutting noise in my nightmares xD
we miss your videos. hopefully your enjoying the game though
2:03 when recording a scrolling website I recommend pressing MMB for smoother panning
Didn't work on the PC I was using at the time for some reason and couldn't be bothered to google why XD
Armor and ammo info is what I want to know, Is buying more expensive stuff is worth it for middle of the road player.
Playing for 2 years and this choice in the game always crosses my mind. My favorite map is Reserve, paracord in my gamma is always a consideration. That kinda made me use CMS Alu combo. A lot. Thank yu for making feel reassured to not go back. BESIDES if it’s an argument of uses. You think the low use count is a sign for you get out of raid and reset. I’d fix limbs off AI. You’d be dead by a player with this head eyes bug lol
I love the science content, I think it was a mistake to change so many variables in each scenario but the results are still interesting to see. IMO you should've had the PMC wear a standard armor and be full health throughout all the scenarios, if you wanted to run a second set of the same scenarios with a different PMC loadout/health value it would be easier to factor out how the variables affected the results.
Concur. Should be the same parts repaired in each "iteration" so you have a true comparison.
It could be that even when you control that, the shots to kill variability is ~1, but with the current trials it seems like conditions were chosen to reach an outcome
The Surv 12 doesnt offer nearly as much as the CMS for a multitude of reasons. (If I was any good id do a video reply haha) But, 1 additional slot = min 10k per run. Avg player uses maybe 1-2 uses per run. gives a CMS avg lifespan of, 3-4 raids, lets call it 4 for sake of avgs. And the Surv is 15, gives it the life of lets call it 8 to 10. 4x10 min = 40k per the life of that CMS that is being earned, therefore allowing for it to pay for itself, and its uses, over the course of your raids, and thats purely lost with the Surv 12. With a solid setup, you can have keys, injectors, all meds and 1 free slot available with EOD, keys+expensive meds in upgraded, and not much for alpha, which makes the CMS just stronger there in general. Stronger profit margins, and more cost efficient overall.
Who ever said that thorax and head black outs are bugs? There is no in-game reference (and none outside) that states thorax and head are supposed to insta-kill you.
BUT we DO have in-game reference to blacked out limbs as a whole. You roll dice any time a limb blacks out, it might kill you or not (either arms or thorax from my experience), it just feels like thorax chance to kill you is higher. And that's probably the truth of the matter
Thank you for the well thought through and data driven content. In addition to the increased time to kill, I personally use the Surv12 for a couple reasons that weren't listed in the video.
To keep in theme with the non-subjective comparison of shots to kill, we could also consider how many shots it takes to black out a repaired limb. In nearly every case, the CMS will leave you with under 32 HP. Every round commonly used will black out that limb with one shot assuming it isn't dealing with the velocity changes. Having the ability to get hit once and still run or stabilize aim can be crucial in a gunfight and may prove to be a major factor that enables you to live through the engagement.
A more subjective conversation is the true cost of the meds. Running a CMS means you likely run a splint of some kind with cost and space implications. In the same vein, a CMS has a diminished value around 40-60% of its use where only having 2 or 3 uses could cause a player to opt for a new CMS rather than risk running out mid raid. The Surv12 can be used much further in this regard getting to roughly 20% of its use before meeting that same criteria.
I feel it's a bit of a give or take situation, and while I do agree a lot of times when your engaged you've already popped pain meds, which won't stop blacked out limb shakes but will let you keep sprinting, the advantagous are very situation dependant, time cost is a huge factor and if your solo your not likely to cms or surv if you have close contact, which is a majority of scenarios most players find themselves in.
There's also the fact that broken limbs can happen without a blacked out one, so while it is a bonus for a surv to heal broken limbs it's a waste to only heal a broken limb with a 20 sec use. In CQB it's a rather moot point, and even mid range engagements typically and quickly become CQB in a lot of instances, a CMS would be more time effective. A surv would be great in long range if you need to cross a point and you have no pain meds while taking fire but those engagements are a dime a dozen.
@@NarutoMagicCyclops It definitely is a give or take. I don’t feel pain meds really play a part in the discussion as it is independent of the use of a CMS or Surv. What we’re talking about in context of blacked out limbs is whether or not your limb will be blacked out. Whether you’re on pain killers or not, that changes a 2-5 second heal to a 15-20 second surgery as well as the potential negative effects that blacked limb has.
Regardless of play, the decision to do surgery typically is done in situations where you feel you have at least 15-20 seconds. This is where I don’t feel the additional 5 seconds really has a major impact. The number of times that 5 seconds would made a difference is near nonexistent.
I bring the blacked out limb scenario in because I frequently find myself in a second engagement after having been in a fight where I may have lost an arm and/or leg that has been repaired in surgery. I can feel the difference in having CMSed and Surved when in those secondary engagements. After a CMS, I will never have a red limb. It’s either good or blacked. Once I switch to a surv in the wipe I find myself with red limbs that I can do a 3 second heal in most situations and be back in the fight full HP.
Edit: I couldn’t read your whole post on mobile so to just touch on the split piece you brought up. Even with a surv I typically run an Alu split as well. I prefer having the ability to quickly heal a break quickly, but it’s not necessarily needed when running a surv which is why I included it in the subjective section of my original comment. Outside of scavs for some reason, I find I rarely have a break without a blacked out limb in combat. I find that is much more common from falls etc.
im glad you re visited this. I've been running CMS + alum splint for the same reasons u stated. speed of use. the ability to move items around for high value items in gamma container
and cheaper cost over the long term.
you said this info isn't anywhere online, but the wiki has always explained that CMS repairs limbs worse... the software is to a certain extent just subjective trivia. the permutations for damage are too insane for the simulation to be trustworthy, it's just far too varied.
No content creator puts the amount of time into their videos as you do. Awesome stuff. How would removing decimal points (rounding up) change things? Because you can't get hit with .5 of a bullet. If a CMS takes 5.6 shots and Surv12 takes 6, there would be no actual difference in game.
The thing is when you find valuable loot you can remove cms easier but in surv12 most of the time i waste uses on it if we are playing 2 3 person i take surv 12 but when im solo stick with cms
Interesting, the difference is actually lower than expected. Guess Ill keep using CMS; the smaller size and lower cost makes it much less of an opportunity cost. Also got a metric ton of CMS' from looting crack house.
nono it costs more per use on average..
I will always use the best value item i can that's available to me. In my scenario with a gamma container, a Surv-12 will always be the better option. You get back more of your limb after completing surgery, and each use of the surgery kit costs considerably less than the CMS. the extra slot over a CMS is negligible to me with a gamma container. it's a win-win scenario.
Holy fucking shit, you actually wrote an entire sim for this video. Instant sub!
400 grams versus 1200 grams.
16 seconds vs 20 seconds.
2 slots vs 3 slots.
What is there to discuss? The choice is obvious.
heh bold of you to assume anyone would like me enough to be my girlfriennd! :)
I almost always use surv 12, never been bothered by the slower use time or larger size. I only ever take CMS to reserve so I can fit paracord in my gama.
I never buy cms, always find them in raid and just use those
The surv12 is nice due to the many uses it has. Very good with squads, especially if people are running EOD or at least beta in the early game. Surv12 also wins on how many shots one can take and extract, because if the cms is low youll need a crapton of painkillers to get out, especially on a map like shoreline or woods. Pretty much everything else is negligible.
This is my first wipe and I have a standard account. I typically use the CMS because it fits well into my BETA container (I upgraded within the game, not upgrade account). I rarely live long enough to worry about doing surgery on the same limb more than once. If I find a SURV-12, I try to get out with it and sell it on.
I have been waiting for this.. :D
This is what I think a better simulation to do for comparing those two kit imo.
1. start with full health.
2. generate a number from 1 to shots to kill in that situation (leg meta or common distribution), and use it as shots hit on the player.
3. fix blacked out limb and regenerate to full.
4. repeat 2. and 3. til character dies and get the average total shots to kill
This simulation is better imo because sometimes u don't always get killed in a fight. This take in to account of the "reblacking" of a fixed limb, the total uses of the kit, and the randomness of fight.
The result might be interesting to see.
I mostly run Surv12 just because I don't like to think about whether I should bring 2 CMS kits because one of them is 3/5 or not. I mostly sell my Surv12s when they have less than 4 uses left, so it more of a peace of mind kind of deal for me rather than "is the more HP worth it"
100% this is what it is for me aswell. I lose a lot of limbs it seems by choosing to not shoot at scavs and rather run past to try to sneak around them and sometimes they leg me or arm me mid run and that automatically takes away from the uses and then if you get into a real fair fight most times you will lose at least a limb or two so therefore after my CMS is below 3/5 i toss it so therefore it loses a lot more value because i dont want to not heal a limb as thhis lowers your ttk substantially
This video teach me that my girlfriend lies a lot :(
you should have converted the shots to kill to a time to kill chart using the fire rate, then found the average time to kill of each in all of the scenarios. that way that because all of the balancing done to the guns, you would still have a better general idea which is better.
With the number of guns for each caliber that would be a massive amount of new information, not to mention that it doesn’t account for accuracy/recoil. When you look at tile to kill, that really only compares the guns, not the ammo. RUclips already punishes me enough for longer videos :)
Having been doing a Standard account run this wipe, I usually keep a CMS in my container for use as needed, but with its relative high availability, if I need to put something else in those slots, I am willing to swap it out and wont mourn its loss if I die afterwards
Also I know I am a bit of a odd duck in how I run ammo in raids, preferring a military style loadout in nature (though the ammo used can vary depending on what I am planning on doing)
As a fellow Standard edition enjoyer, i recommend just buying the Beta container from peacekeeper for about a million roubles, which is in my opinion, completly worth it, stuff it with a docs case and with the surv kit, carry more pills or an injector case in the last slot and grind the prapor untill you get the epsilon.
@@СергійКузніченко
Does Peacekeeper offer it for such? All I see is a barter offer there
@@LeonSteelpaw he means the approximate value of the the barter items being close to 1mil rubes if you were to buy them on flea
gonna laugh if all the barters change after wipe lol
Running in a duo I think I would choose the surv 12 now, running solo I think I'll go with CMS because time matters alot more
@Veritas. Do you think the cancellation animation time difference should play a role in deciding? I know that advanced players will fake a med, or fake a Surgery to get an enemy to push only to have cancelled it and then hopefully win the fight.
id like to see different armor hitboxes pre update and then compare again when they get the custom hitboxes
This is always a debate with the bois. Will love to see it settled, for better or for worse someone is getting shit talked today lol.
Cost and size isn't important but time is the single most important stat in the game which is why I run cms when pvping.
really good comparison between the two surgical kits, ill personally keep using the cms and pack a splint into raid since the difference is very miniscule thank you for this video
surv12 fixes broken limbs
INEEDAMEDICBAG
honestly its very situational. if i’m going for cqb like dorms, bunker, resort or factory its defo cms. if not its surv12. another factor is if i’m carrying a backpack or not.
LMAO cheater at 14:53 gets owned
money is a joke in this game , i would go for the SURV12 anyday simply because if you ARE operating you asume you are in a safe position , and if im in a safe position i prefer said operation give me back more hp
i have EOD and am at lvl 38, ca 950hr playtime and at my second wipe. up
to quite recently I went with CMS + splinters but as I've found/crafted
more SURV12 I've changed to them instead. It had been some years between my wipes so came back real rusty so when I realized SURV12 also repairs broken limbs I made the switch.
i know you mentioned it but you didnt consider it to the equation and honestly it's probably a very low cost to add but still a cost if you wanna account for SURV12's full potential.
i'm talking bout adding splinters along your cms kit if I confused anybody.
nice deep dive on this question Veritas! interesting to see
my thing has been cms/alu for solo play and surv12 for group play. I'm usually playing with my lower level friends who don't have their own kits so the extra uses can be useful! love the vid
Theres more factors to just dying. CMS can cause the limp to go black faster which can cause the actual death. Surv12 for me is a no brainer if you have epsilon, or gamma
I use the Surv12 Exclusively.. For me personally its not about the time to kill difference more than the likelyness of that limb being blackened by a nuissance scav or someone taking popshots from a distance.
With the CMS it takes a sneeze from a distant player to re Blacken that limb, potentially causing me to limp if i havent got painkillers, or forcing me to stop and heal once again somewhere. Potentially leading to being pushed by players.
Plus the Surv is nice when you forget a splint etc
You sound like the lockpicking lawyer xD
Fascinating. We're fortunate to have you putting out analyses like these for the EFT community. I'll be sticking with the CMS
CMS: Before Strength 51lvl - weight and size. Every gramm matter. And after looting something expensive I swap it with CMS/Surv - so if I die (it is ~35% of raids by stats) I'll lost less.
Surv: Mostly after 51 lvl of strength AND IF I use big backpack or/and "3 hex-line" rig (Alpha). Mostly because with something like Trizip - it is waste of space. But with bigger backpack with loot I wanna have my kit with me after dropping heavy backpack in/before fight.
CMS because both them and splints are easier to manage in the inventory, and are much quicker to use. I wish Survs had more incentive
Surv: More limb hp, at the cost of container space, longer animation, and cost (30k is nitpicking but eh)
CMS/ALU: Faster, cheaper, less hp per limb.
As someone who’s had raids where I’ve had to use a CMS 7-9 times (borrowed a teammates) and walked out with limbs at 1/1 hp, I’ll still stick by the CMS compared to surv. Those precious seconds when you dip out of a fight to fix your leg or stomach quickly matter. Surv is great for keeping you healthier in a raid sure, but I’ll take that time advantage over the limb HP any day. We’re at the point in wipe everyone has high flesh/pen rounds like BP/M62/M61 so 90% of the time that extra 18 HP on your arm doesn’t mean anything, it’ll still be blacked out first shot.
There are 2 major differences that make me never ever switch off the Surv12:
1) More HP on average which can vary between 35 and 50ish HP. That one bullet can actually be 2 bullets difference, so yeah WORTH IT. With a CMS you get 10-35HP. That's a HUGE difference to me.
2) The amount of uses
Downsides are
1) a couple of extra seconds but lets be real, if you need 16 seconds to surgery, and you find a safe place and time to do it, those 4 seconds really dont matter that much.
2) one extra slot consumed in your gamma, which really isnt that much of a downside because if i need space, I'll suddenly have 3 and not 2 extra slots in there.
The amount of times I got killed with a 15 HP limb, is beyond me. Especially once your surgery skill goes up, the time is reduced and yeah, you would get a bit more HP with a CMS with that skill too, but a Surv basically gives me 60-100% extra HP at the cost of a slot and 4 seconds... AND I bring a splint with me as well, because spending either 16 or 20 seconds on a broken limb is just stupid if you wanna cheap out on a 15K splint.
Side note: when did you ever get hit by all pellets in a shotgun? That barely ever happens.
Surv12's save lives
The 4 second difference argument is kind of dumb. if you are getting pushed and just finish surgery with a cms since its 4 seconds faster your limb is still on 1hp so it really doesn't even matter since you wont have time to heal after that. also if you do surgery why tf would you do surgery if you know someone is near you and is trying to kill you. just do that after the fighting is done and you can heal up without worrying
I still think that those 5extra seconds can make a difference at times, is just too random to quantify which is better, if both kits had same time to heal I would sacrifice an extra square for the surv kit
I once had the same limb blacked out 3 or 4 times in a single raid, and if I remember correctly, it was only that limb that ever got blacked out. It was down to single digit HP by the end.
I also don't recall if I used CMS or Surv12, it's been a while.
But taking that into consideration, having more health on my limb in general, especially after consecutive times, Surv12 is more worth it. Nowadays with a lot of changes to the containers, there's only so much that you can and would want to put into it. These days, I pretty much only have a SICC or Docs, Surv12, then an extra heal (1x1, IFAK or AFAK), painkiller in the form of vaseline, balm or ibuprofen, and then I either have extra bullets, especially if it's high cost ammo.. Or I roll with an alu splint and a calok-b, and the calok will be replaced with injection case, so it's pretty much then just Alu Splint for those times you might break a limb but not black it out, or a stack of ammo.
So for me personally, and I do have the Gamma container obviously, I'll have multiple things I can toss out for a GPU or whatever. The Surv12 for me is usually not the first thing that goes out. Not to mention it's a usage cost, and you can share the Surv12 for a group of people.. And by the offchance you have both arms, both legs and stomach blacked out.. You'll still have 10 uses left instead of not even a CMS.
I actually own the 12 survivors first aid kit.
Used it twice, it had what I needed both times.
you mean irl? Whyd you have to use it?
@@marthflores3515
Obviously IRL.
Both times to treat injuries...
Once for a deep cut and once for a laceration from a hard fall on rocky ground.
@@martindrengenxbox360 holy shit that fall sounds scary but amen you're good I trust the surv12 now in game Haha
Where it Surv12 shines is when multiple limbs have been blacked out for example with two limbs balcked out the CMS (25-45%) could return between 30 - 60.75hp while the surv12(60-72%) could return 72 - 97.2hp this is a huge difference
I can't help but to put valuable shit in my container. I used to run a Grizzly for the extra heals, all the different utility it has, and for my squadmates. This wipe I've gone to using a Salewa or even an IFAK or AFAK because I found myself taking the Grizzly out of my container and dying with a 1600/1800 Grizzly in my backpack lol.
Much prefer the Surv12.
CMS is flexible with the inventory, but I don't wanna go into a raid with a 3/5 uses for example, I'd swap out my ALUs and CMS' more often than Surv12.
Having Surv12 almost always with a good amount of heals is just more practical in the long run, and the extra 4s for healing don't matter when you're safe and want to unblack/splint a leg anyway
I have one major sissues with your propabilistic method. The lack consideration of standard deviation. Image both scenarios (numbers are made up): there are 5% chances to die to 1 bullet, 90% you die to 2, and 5% you die to 3. Second scenario, 35% you die to 1 bullet, 30% 2 bullets and 35% 3. In both scenarios the average is 2 bullets to kill, but in second you have it is 7 times more likely you survive 2 shoots. That is massive difference that you did not consider with just a mean.
I run surv when I’m thicc (slick/hex kits) and CMS/ALU otherwise. While the extra HP of a surv is nice the longer animation is aids. I like to use CMS aggressively sometimes, as in my leg gets blacked out and I fall back like 20 feet and speed surv it. You’d think the people hear it and change you but no, I’ve never been rushed doing that.
I'd love to se the debate of if having stomach covered by armour is worth it. If in a normal scenario(middle of the road ammo(7.62ps,56a1, m80,ect) "random" hits) will you die more or less when using for example Ars Arma CPC over the Killa armour.
I didnt even know I didnt have notifications on for your channel until you mentioned it. I got notifications for every video you've uploaded since I subbed so I didnt even think about it.
Edit: side note (4:20 , haha funny number in the time stamp), I've gotten and seen others get blacked heads quite a few times. You're right that you cant surgery a blacked head or thorax (impossible because you're dead at that point), but you can still survive a blacked head from full hp(or near, idk, havent done testing on it but I'm usually not 100% hp in my raids). Dont know if you were saying it, but the context implied a blacked head is guaranteed death. Dont know if this is just a visual bug where the player has 0 hp so it rounds down to the next whole number, displaying 0 and a blacked limb or something, or if you're just allowed to survive a blacked head. It makes sense you wouldnt be able to perform surgery on your own head ("I cant see my forehead" -Patrick Star), but I'm not quite sure if you're supposed to be alive with a head at 0 hp.
Dont you have to only count those cases with a bigger diffrence then 1.1? Sind 5.5 shots wont happen in tarkov, or 5.1 you need to up it to 6. so lets say cms is 5.1 and s12 is 5.9, big diffrence but in reality its just both 6 shots. Making no diffrence atall. I know, we talking avg and the real numbers may be like 4,9 and 6.1 meaning 5 and 7 shots to kill, a very big diffrence of 2 shots, but on avg its no diffrence. These case to case cases(lol) are really hard to compare and I think it will come down to feelings. For me Im just gonna start running both at the same time, so I never struggle in fights. Nobody should think I cant fill up 5 slots in my gamma
The surv12 may be useful if you aren't running a grizzly for your main med. But with the cost efficiency and versatility of a grizzly the CMS is better. A grizzly costs under 30k, and is like having a hemostat, a few army bandages, an aluminum splint and like 10 AI-2 kits in a four slot on one hotkey.
Hate to say it, but I think I enjoy the flexibility of the CMS + alu splint because I spend far too much time in-raid min/maxing the loot I'm keistering. It's especially ironic in my case because I have a reasonably high SR and barely ever have "money issues" in the game. However, it's hard to put a value on guaranteeing you get out with that last Hideout upgrade item or two vs potentially losing 40-50k worth of easily replaceable (past a certain point) medical commodities.
I use a CMS.
A CMS and an alu splint takes up the same amount of space as a surv12 but gives you more flexibility for how that space is arranged as well as more flexibility for throwing items out of your secure container for looted valuables.
The CMS and definitely the alu splint are faster to use than a surv12 (even if you have to both do surgery AND splint a fracture) and they weigh less combined than a surv12.
The only redeeming factor for the surv12 is the max health reduction being less than on the CMS, but I'm willing to gamble on that for the benefits of a CMS and an alu splint.
Been running the Surv if I have the room to for the extra HP/re-usability across multiple raids. Managing your legs/mitigating a mobility kill with meds (preferably prop or adrenaline) is almost always better in a fight than trying to CMS. Unfortunately in the current setup running it from the rip means EOD account or get stuffed. A Surv, a Salewa, and a pocket morphine are pretty optimal budget meds IMHO.
ETA: I finished the video. I think that something that may not have been accounted for here that plays out very differently in real games is bleeding management or mobility management. A bleed on CMS healed limb versus a Surv Healed limb is going to be a huge difference. With a Surv Healed limb you simply have more time available to manage your meds before you have to worry about your limb being blacked again. Another pretty important factor is also going to be how many rounds a leg can take before it gets re-blacked. Even one or two extra rounds for preventing a mobility kill Is going to be a huge deal.
I also think you missed a great opportunity by not running a scenario that simulates the dreaded sniper shotgun scav; I suspect damage drop off from range (and to a lesser extent pellet spread) would significantly increase the number of hits you can survive with the Surv relative to the CMS.
I might be in the minority but I rearly take the CMS kit and Surv12 kits .My reasoning is simple: most of my fights end quickly, either I kill the other person or I get killed. More then 50% of the time I don't even have a chance to heal. Also this wipe I the amount of times my limbs got blacked is miniscule and most of the time I was close to the extract and a simple long lasting painkiller could get me throught to the extract.
I just carry something to stop a heavy bleed and a simple IFAK.
And my secure container has another IFAK, a splint and an Ibuprofen.
CMS because that extra slot for looting means 10k more per raid I get. And I almost always take the CMD/SURV out of my container the moment i find better loot. So I will keep dieing with the SURV because i find a M-cable or GPU etc.
The surv12 is still better than the CMS (even if it didn’t restore more HP) if you’re solely focused on PvP in that raid. If you’re a good player you could definitely get more than 5 blacked limbs throughout the entire raid. Otherwise the CMS kit is probably better.
Playing solo u generally do more loot runs and have higher priority on secure container space. When playing with buddies(tend to be both newer and regularly less prepared than most partners of mine) I will bring a surv kit so I can comfortably share heaps with lower level friends. I also hate not having my meds when I need them. Tarkov seems to be a game where when you are prepared you don't need to be. And when you aren't prepared, you should have been. So with meds, I prefer preparedness. I have played for 7 wipes, I have over 3000 hours and have almost always had the EOD Version. So you know my background, thank you veritas for doing this elevated quality of research. I respect the science of it. And your ability to elaborate well with elequence.
As a noob, I'm thinking that CMS is good for quick-paced operations where time is of the essence and blistering fire rates make one-bullet differences useless, while Surv12 is better for those longer, bigger maps where you're expected to go into hunting duels from across the field. That's my take on it though
I think if the SURV12 had it's own animation for using a splint rather than just doing the full surgery, it would be used more. I use a CMS because I don't want to wait 20 seconds if I break a leg or especially if I break both. Also I don't normally get more than 3 or 4 limbs blacked in a raid so 5 uses if fine for me. Having a quick use splint is worth more to me than a little bit of extra HP on a limb.
I know I'm a bit late to this topic of conversation, but I feel like regardless of that, any and all information players can get can still help. So here's my take on the matter. The Surv12 will always be my go to as I usually run in at least duos, if not trios, and the cost for it is irrelevant to me as I manage to do fairly decent so i'm not usually hurting for money. And sometimes a friend will forget to replace C.M.S after a raid when it's used up (we've all done it at least once lol). So having the option to throw mine down for a friend in need with more uses for them to use is invaluable to my team play, especially when med areas are usually first places to get hit for loot. However, on the rare occasion I play solo, I will run CMS as I don't need the spare uses. So in my honest opinion, the choices truly come down to your scenario. Solo? Run C.M.S as the uses remaining can be a great indicator on when it's time to go as well. Running groups? The Surv12 alone, even if just one can help your entire group after a big fight. I also own EOD so butt space is not generally an issue for me. Thank you Veritas SO MUCH for this insight! I'm sure it will help players for a long time to come. Great work brother!
I'm skeptical of the results, due to the difference in what's been damaged and what kind of ammo was used.
What is the difference between these ammo types when in every scenario you've got a repaired arm vs stomach vs leg vs stomach + arm, stomach + leg, 2 arms etc.
The fact that every tested scenario differed by ~1 round and the setups were different makes me very skeptical. Too many variables at play for a good study.
A possible re-test could be high flesh vs legs, "normal" ammo vs center mass, and "good" ammo center mass. Same repaired limbs in each comparison so you can get a more controlled study.
I use CMS because I use them for very different reasons than your tests. The way I find the surgical kits saving my life is:
Be able to run, no shaky hands, no starved to death after blacked stomach.
Basically, I use the surgical kits to keep me in combat-ready status over the HP values they bring back.
I use whatever I have lying around because I'm a casual who is going to lose everything anyway. If I am getting a blacked out limb, I'm probably dead within a second or two more. If I survived, I'll hit up med spawns on my way to reset.
EDIT: Almost forgot, loved the effort put into this.
I always used a CMS because I never lived long enough to do more than 2 or 3 surguries, but after getting better a PMC fucked me up one day before I killed him. Both arms, both legs, and my stomach were blacked. I used 5 out of 5 uses of my CMS and realized real quick that I had to upgrade to a surv12.
I use the surv12 not because I need all 15 uses in 1 raid, but because i often use 3/5 or 4/5 uses of the CMS, and I dont want to go into raid with a mostly used CMS. The surv12 can be used over multiple raids without worrying about not having enough uses. Plus I don't put a lot in my gamma and I usually have 2 or 3 empty slots, so I'm not worried about space. The only issue I deal with is time, but I usually get to a safe enough position.