Lion has my vote for “Primarch told about Chaos”. Number 1 was fighting Chaos before The Emperor found him. Could also be why The Emperor never doubted the Lion’s loyalty. If he was going to turn, he would have already.
By the Heresy I'd be surprised if most if not all of the Primarchs had encountered Chaos in some form. It could also have been Magnus he told as Prospero literally had Chaos creatures that fed on Psykers. Not to mention Perturabo was able to see Eye of Terror even as a boy. So don't be too sure it was Johnson he told. We really only know Horus and Lorgar were unaware of Chaos until Chaos sought them out.
It's pretty much canon that most of the primarchs knew something about chaos, tho it would also appear than the lion was trusted with much more knowledge in such matters than his brothers
@@morgancampbell3505 Most of his brothers. Likely due to the presence of Chaos on Caliban. However given that Prospero also had Chaos creatures it's likely Magnus may have been told as well. Especially considering he's the most powerful psychic among the Primarchs and quite capable at sorcery. Plus it would be logical to assume the Emperor may have told him after the Edict of Nikea to keep him from pushing too far. It could also explain why Tzeetch hid his identity from Magnus until Magnus no longer had a choice but to accept his help. Though if it's not Johnson or Magnus then I've no idea.
@@chrisbennett6236 yeah both we're likely fairly knowledgeable or at least were supposed to be, the lion was effectively the emperor's ultimate weapon against particularly insidious threats, he did the things his other brothers we're too moral to do, things that were necessary to root out things like chaos or particular malevolent xenos, Magnus was designed to use the golden throne so would likely have been educated in chaos, or at least was supposed to be, whether that actually transpired in reality is questionable, he fell rather naively into tzeenchs grasp
@@morgancampbell3505 Yeah Tzeetch didn't reveal himself until Magnus was essentially backed into Corner by Russ. Though the fact that he was supposed to sit the Golden Throne at some point to keep Chaos out of the webways does suggest he either knew or would be told. Unfortunately GW has decided to run this lore like the 2nd and 11th with little to go on so we can only guess. But at this case we can be fairly certain it's Johnson or Magnus that knew about Chaos before the Heresy. Though given that both had dealt with it on their homeworlds it would be more logical that both knew. Hell the Emperor may not have told either of them they just figured it out on their own given the presence of Chaos on their homeworlds. It's also interesting to not note that Caliban and Prospero were the two homeworlds that were more or less destroyed.
I think what is often forgotten is that despite the immense power, the almost unbearable charisma and the incredible age, the Emperor is still, human. He makes mistakes, does foolish things, because he is human.
No he's not! It is directly stated in the first chapter of Master of Mankind - the emperor is a loose weapon left over from the so-called 'dark age of technology'. It is not a human at all, not even close.
The Emperor is the saddest joke in 40k. He tells everyone he's only human. Makes the single greatest mistake since the fall of the eldar in the Great Crusade( talk about terrible math. Chaos minus worshippers plus an entire galaxy of war feeding every emotion and condition the Warp Powers feed off of does not equal starving out Chaos. The last 10k years have been an absolute all you can eat buffet across the galaxy because of the Emperor's hubris.) and then gets worshipped as a God to add irony to the shit storm that is the complete failure of everything he tried to accomplish including knowing all the brutal and genocidal tactics he used were for absolutely nothing and indeed probably fed Chaos even more.
We see Perturabo's first meeting with the Emperor at the end of his Primarch book. Perturabo is overjoyed and happy about meeting and getting praised by The Emperor, but The Emperor has a moment of sadness, almost as if he knew, that the hardship of beeing The Emperor's great Hammer would break or hurt Perturabo.
@@BUSSTISEBOOST yes it really did, it also had to make up for the bad take on him in Crimson Fist by John French. The only story in the Horus Heresy, where a force lead by a Primarch is loosing to not-a-primarch spacemarine force.
List of simple things that the Emperor could have done to prevent the Horus Heresy: 1. Explain to Magnus (and Horus) why he shouldn't use the warp and educate him on Chaos 2. Save Angron's friends 3. Not order the destruction of Monarchia 4. Kill Erebus and Kor Phaeron 5. Not underestimate the Chaos Gods
6. Tell Lorgar that He is not a god, but being revered as a Saint figure could make a good alternative. 7. Put Angron (and his friends) in stasis until they find a way to remove the Nails. 8. Give some love to Perty. 9. Have a giant mock-up battle between the Fists and the Warriors on Terra to test the Imperial Palace's defenses. Use the collected data by both sides to improve them. Pert has the occasion to shine and puts an end to his rivalry with Dorn. Two birds, one stone.
The heresy still would have happened. Perhaps the list of traitors would be different. It was inevitable that someone would be corrupted by Chaos given that they were immortal beings and Chaos had infinite time to corrupt somebody. It might have taken 200 million years but eventually a legion would be turned. Conversely, there is no way to end Chaos. The warp will always be there watching and hungering for souls. Neither side can ever truly exterminate the other.
I like to think that part of the reason The Emperor is still holding on to life, despite the absolute agony he endures, is to get that one shot at vengeance against the Chaos Gods for what they turned his beloved sons into. Especially Horus.
That and his love for humanity as a whole, he always considered himself human first and foremost, the pinnacle of what humanity is capable of reaching if they just grasp it, he wants his people to succeed just as he has.
@@harrisonbeesonvo Even a Perpetual can die. Malcador was a Perpetual, but sitting on the Golden Throne for as long as he did burned up is soul to such a degree that there was nothing left to heal. The Chaos Gods have also demonstrated they can kill or at the very least render other Gods broken, as we've seen from Slaanesh massacring the Eldar Pantheon, save for Isha who was "Rescued" by Nurgle, Kaine who's in pieces and Cegorach who's just chilling in the Black Library. The fact that the Cusdoes even exists implies it's very possible to harm The Emperor to a degree even He couldn't come back from.
@@randomcenturion7264 oh, I see. I was talking to my brother about this (he's a big fan), and he was telling me there was some storyline about someone trying to kill the Emperor to resurrect him; any idea on what that story is? Would love to read it
@@logandelaharpe6317 goes common sense is dead in those two. I mean any of them could have called the other and talked about what's going to happen, magnus already accepted his fate and cared for his legion so it feels out of character to go "yeah let's all die"
We've actually seen twice now where the Emperor went soft on one of his sons. First with Horus, trying to talk him down before taking the fight more seriously. And more recently he only chased Mortarion off without really hurting him. Unfortunately being forced to kill Horus, destroying his soul, I'm concerned that the Emperor will be gun shy in dealing with his fallen sons.
I am less worried that he would be gun shy, but considering Robute's conversation with big E on the throne, I am more concerned that he sacrificed all of his humanity along with his compassion in order to end Horus. If he came back with no compassion, empathy or humanity; he will be the worst despot humanity has ever had. its even possible that he would become a chaos god akin to the version of him in the fan fic "The Shape of the Nightmare to Come". a brutal, unyielding, uncompromising, unforgiving and merciless god of order and tyranny.
@@MrKago1 I thought that was the case after Guilliman spoke with him. But when Guilliman was being overwhelmed by Mortarion's forces the Emperor intervened and killed all the demons but he didn't hurt Mortarion he just chased him off. I realized that he hesitated yet again to hurt one of his sons. Perhaps he knows something about Mortarion that hasn't been revealed yet.
Well the Emperor is anathema to the chaos gods so perhaps he knows how to purge his sons of corruption and redeem them. Surely this outcome coupled with a penitence crusade would do more good for humanity.
@@CallofWar5 Very true. And we know he can revive the dead Primarchs as he hinted at reviving Ferris Manus in his conversation with Malcador prior to Horus reaching Terra. We also know he destroyed Horus' soul because he knew Chaos could retake him. Definitely an interesting thought.
I remember that despite his absolute loyalty to his father, Sanguinius also dreaded that should the Emperor discover the flaw within the Blood Angels he and his legion would go the way of the other lost primarchs/legions.
Yeah, the Angels true fear of being disposed of in an instant, by his "father" no less really gives me hesitation when people claim the Big-E loved his son's. I think he valued them, as a sculptor values their masterpieces...but also was willing to sell them should the need arise, just like any artist sells their works.
Just goes to show you, the benefits of having a 2 parent household. If the empress of mankind was around maybe all the boys wouldn't of gone all heresy
Well you have a fair point there, rowboat had a mother on maccragge. Something that was unique for him alone. Having a female presence in his life growing up. He did turn out a bit more adjusted than a few of his brothers.
Can we get a series of these. How each of the primarchs thoughts of the other ones. the best part of the heresy is the dynamic between these all too human gods
I'm going to suggest you Google the Tarot Arcana of Primarchs. It associates each Primarch(including the missing ones) with one of the Major Arcana, and gives an insight into their relationships with one another. In theory, it's all hypothetical, but the predictions made by the Tarot line up pretty well with the interactions we've seen in the lore.
When you mention lemun fleeing into the depths of the imperial palace in grief after the emporer was entombed on the golden throne is bloody heartbreaking.
I must say out of all the primarchs lemun russ and Vulkan are the ones that care the most for the emperor and their brothers even though russ is the executioner he doesn't want to hurt his brothers he would much rather save them from the chaos Gods
I feel that the Emperor in all his wisdom should have spent one on one time with each of his sons and told them about chaos. So much could have been avoided from that alone. Simply say something like "Listen my sons, There is a great danger that you all must be aware of and by all means avoid at any and all costs. For the cost of allowing them to consume you would be too great and terrible to imagine. I speak of Chaos, and yes there are Gods Lorgar but they are evil and will use you for their own means alone this is why I don't want you to worship me as a God, but to strive for the ultimate goal I have given each of you to fulfill. I Love all of you, My beloved sons in whom I am well pleased. Now go forth and continue this crusade in the knowledge that I am truly proud of you my sons." There has to be a transparent and unifying relationship with no secrets or lies. Only truth. The Imperial TRUTH.
Honestly I'd be surprised if most of the Primarchs hadn't encountered Chaos in some form by the Heresy. Hell Prospero literally had Chaos creatures that fed on Psykers. So another planet that already had Chaos on it. Also people need to stop saying that only Johnson grew up on a death world or a with Chaos cause it just isn't true. And I'm not even talking about Feral worlds like Fenris, Chogorus Nocturne or Baal. The feral beasts will kill you just as dead as toxins or Chaos.
To be fair, Malcador kind of addressed this when he was asked about it by Dorn and Sanguinius. To paraphrase, he essentially said that the Primarchs would mobilize against Chaos as if it were a material threat if they knew about it, or they would seek to understand or use it, all of which would have turned out badly (mainly because of how Tzeentch works). Being aware of how the Warp works, the Emperor probably figured it would be best not to acknowledge the Dark Gods at all, in order to not feed them. To deny them by replacing them with belief in human ascendancy and reason. Given that the gods reward their followers with eternal life through daemonhood when they commit horrific atrocities in their name, and given the miserable and desperate state of most humans in the galaxy, it makes sense that the Emperor did not want people to know about Chaos. I grant your point on how the Emperor should have had a closer relationship with His sons. But again, to be fair, He lost the chance to be a father when the Dark Gods stole the Primarchs in their infancy. They each grew up with vastly disparate cultures on different planets, and as such, had differing and often conflicting worldviews. Many of them had adopted parents of their own. The Emperor was in a tough position balancing the needs and emotions and duties of His sons from the moment He had to start searching for them.
@@Kidbizzaro6 Yes I do agree with what you are saying about the Emperor not wanting to let humanity know about chaos. I meant to say that only his sons should know about it since they are primarchs. But yea definitely do not let the rest of humanity know of there existence was a good strategy. Also in regards to the chaos Gods taking away the Emperor's sons, It is quite understandable why He couldn't improve his relationship with them, which to me is a tragedy. But what am i saying this is warhammer 40k and in the grim darkness there is only war.
I liked Horus, Sanguinius and Magnus the best. My little Magny Magic that I knew since he was a baby we would talk before we even met face to face. Horus was the first I found and never dissapointed me until je did sob. And Sanguinius my golden little Hawk Boy.
Honestly, I wouldn't be too broken up if the Emperor and Angron's situation got retconned a bit. It never made sense to me that the Emperor didn't unleash the War Hounds to back Angron up to get him more on-side. I refuse to believe that the legion couldn't have easily handled that situation on top of which demonstrate the might of the Imperium to Angron. Hell his buddies probably would have tried to join up like every other Primarch's entourage did when they were found. The current telling just feels lazy. And always more Russ!
The reason seems lazy is cause most people only take into account one thing: whether that individual battle could be won. The reason the Emperor didn't is two-fold: first he didn't have the numbers to go beyond that fight, second their were still high odds Angron would be killed in the battle. The Emperor ultimately wasn't willing to risk Angron's life. He had just refound him after all.
@@chrisbennett6236 no I think it was just a shitty cannon story. An entire legion would have zero problems pacifying a single world. The emperor just comes off as intentionally pushing Angron against him
They could retcon it to were the emperor saves agron and his buddies, emperor provides research on removing the nails, but requires agron to go no a crusade, leaving his bretheran to undergo the procedure without him. The procedure fails killing most of his brothers and seeing the stage for angrons hate.
Could you imagine if Russ, Corax, and the Khan all returned together from the warp with the fruit from the tree of life. 3 returned primarchs and a rejuvenated Emperor. 🤩
Russ is currently in Commoragh with the Fyodperor and Corvus is leading his own crusade back to Terra after seeing Vulkan get revived by WAAAAAGH power
I think the problem with Angron is that beyond just the Butcher's Nails, he spent his entire life before his location was discovered by the Emperor as a slave. The property of someone else, robbed of the freedom to make his own choices. His rebellion and inevitable death at the hands of his enslavers was all part of the first true choice he had ever been able to make. And when the Emperor then saves his life, whether out of a callous need for a primarch to lead the XIIth Legion or out of a genuine desire to save someone he viewed as a son, he took away the one and only thing Angron desired in life. Agency. Angron didn't want to die out of a simple deathwish. If that was the case, he would have found a way to end his life in capitivity. He wanted to die the way he decided for himself. And he couldn't even have that.
@@headlibrarian1996 That's not really the point. The point is that his loyalty to the Emperor was out of the question from the moment the Emperor rescued him from Nuceria. Even if Chaos had never tried to corrupt Angron, he'd likely have turned renegade eventually.
Was about to say... Out of all the Primarchs, Angron was probably the most justified in his treachery. The anger, the Butcher's Nail in his head, slowly killing him... That freedom of choice, for Angron to either go out on his own terms... Of course Angron would hate his father. His father, in his eyes, practically doomed him to die as a slave (slowly to the nail) than as a warrior (on the battlefield with the other slaves.)
Agreed, black library is failing us. The 40k universe’s lore is so rich at face value but needs to be delved into and explored in far greater detail. Ty wolf lord, enjoy that new Ragnar Blackmane model :D
Strongly agree that the Angron- Emperor relationship needs to be expanded and better described. It blows my mind that the Emperor didn’t either A) help Angron save his friends or B) Put Angron down as the rabid dog that he was. We could open up a whole line of tragedy around the Emperor not being able to put him down out of love but knowing that he should...
It was Master of Mankind. He even went to the lengths of seeking the aid of Arkham Land (A Mechanicus prodigy) who was an expert of Archeotech to see if he had any idea how to help.
Tactically the Emperor didn't have the means to fight a prolonged campaign on the planet, and he evaluated that helping Angron would result in unnecessary losses. As to why he kill Angron, the answer is simple: he is his son. He even tried to remove the Nails but they were designed to kill the victim if removed. No father wants to kill their child after finding them after such a long time.
Chris Bennett Makes sense that the Emperor couldn’t help so he didn’t, but the second part feels a bit loose to me. The Emperor is pretty ruthless by nature and he was not incapable of purging #2 and #11. I feel like more detail about their relationship would help explain that. Why was Angron, a pain and rage fueled time bomb, allowed to live while 2 others were not?
@@lokiorin5520 We don't know what happened to 2 and 11. The only thing we know for sure is that they were purged from records but what happened to them is unknown. Though I will say based on what little we have it does sound like one or the other fell in battle and one is missing. They are referred to as the Lost and Fallen. The purging part is only that they were purged from records. Plus we have actually canon lore of how the Emperor dealt with two sons: Horus and Mortarion. Both times he hesitated and went easy on them. So to say he's ruthless and took out two of his sons isn't supported by the canon. We can only base it on how he dealt with the ones we know about.
It's worth remembering that the 3rd found Primarch was one of the lost Primarchs. So Emps was probably quite close with him as he was with Russ & Horus. Might explain his distance towards some of the later ones if he lost/had to kill one of his favoured sons.
It calls my attention that almost all loyalist primarchs had their brief childhoods surrounded by people (or a wolf mother) that care for them, some even had actual adoptive fathers and that is probably what made them more secure about themselves and their rol in life. In "Deliverance Lost" Corax makes this reflection about how him might had turned like the Nigth Hunter had not been raised by people that showed him compasion. Wich is an interesting point because almost all* of the traitor primarchs had shitty childhoods that messed them up , while Lorgar did had an adoptive father but the guy brainwashed and used him. With all the "GRIM DARKNESS" of 40K at least the Horus Heresy series has some really strong emotional stuff and a relevant message about the importance of family.
Look at Bobby G. He had a decent family (king Konor Guilliman as adoptive father and seneschal Tarasha Euten as adoptive mother). It has provided him with enough stability, that even witnessing the incredibly sorry state of the Imperium and getting completely disillusioned with how Emperor was seeing Primarchs wasn't enough to make him wash his hands and decide to abandon all hope in recovering the Imperium.
We all know the Emperor’s favorite were the 2, lost and purged Primarchs. That’s why he has hard relationship with his other sons. Because the failure ( or success ) of the other 2. One could be out there right now going past our galaxy to see what is out there.
Everyone forgets Master of Mankind when the Emperor is playing Malcador and realizes Sanguinius will die he is very sad and upset and never thought he would lose his Angel. So I say good relationship but can't make the argument for favorite due to lack of interactions.
@@logandelaharpe6317 Horus is perceived favorite thus far but I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually find out either Sanguinius or Vulcan was his favorite. We do know he loved Horus and didn't want to kill him.
The Emperor went out of his way to save Mortarion and Angron upon first finding them. Both because they were about to do something foolish and be killed but like he said to Mortarion: you are my son I couldn't let you die. We know the Emperor didn't have good relationships with either Angron or Mortarion but the thought of them dying didn't sit well with him. So imagine how he'd feel if he lost one of the sons he did have a good relationship with. So of course knowing Sanguinius was going to die saddened him but it also lends credit to him doing everything he could to save Sanguinius. What we need is clear lore about whether Sanguinius was dead or dying when the Emperor arrived.
@@chrisbennett6236 if he was dying it's possible on top of holding back against horus his focus might of been split using his powers to attempt to save the angel and attempting to save horus
I'm actually surprised that there hasn't been any lore between Sanguinius and the Emperor. Hell we even have lore with Jaghatai so we know that they at least respected each other.
Konrad Curze's vision of his Father and his perspective on their relationship are detailed in "Night Lord". Definitly one of the best and with no doubt one of the darkest Black Librairy books.
Just finished “Legion” amazing book, made me think the alpha legion are now probably my favourite legion, I wish there was more about them but that would probably ruin the whole mystic of the alpha legion! Would love a book with alpharius omegon meeting the emperor. I think they’re still working on trying to achieve the emperors goals, even in m41! Disappointed with Fulgrim being retconned and actually voluntarily turning to chaos, the end of Fulgrim was honestly hard hitting, knowing he made a mistake and had to watch that and pay for that one mistake for the rest of his life. Felt wasted and cheapened by what happens later!
Try "Sons of the Hydra"! It's a 40k Book, so it has no Primarch scenes (or has it?!); but it's really well wirtten and showes some of the things the Legion is up to in the current timeline :)
How the emperor probably thinks about his sons: 1. Lion El'Jonson: "Just tell me the truth son. I won't get angry." 2. The 2nd Legion Primarch: "I'm sorry what was your name again?" 3. Fulgrim: "Son... I think you're staring on the mirror way too much lately." 4. Perturabo: "What did I told you earlier! I said no whining!" 5. Jaghatai Khan: "Will you just stay put even for a couple of seconds already?" 6. Leman Russ: "Try not sleeping with the dog before you go to sleep tonight, okay?" 7. Rogal Dorn: "Don't take everything literally, son. Also, don't fight with your brother too much, kay?" 8. Konrad Curze: "Son, I think you should lay off from the eyeliner." 9. Sanguinius: "My precious baby angel boy." 10. Ferrus Manus: "I think having too much arm wrestling is a little bit excessive." 11. 11th Legion Primarch: "For the last time! I'm not your baby daddy" 12. Angron: "I only said we're leaving from this place. Don't go pouting on me, mister!" 13. Roboute Guilliman: "So we're building an empire, huh? Like father, like son." 14. Mortarion: "Try taking a bath sometimes, son." 15. Magnus the Red: "Will you just go outside already! Your skin is already turning red for my sake." 16. Horus Lupercal: "Ahhh.. my precious bald baby boy!" 17. Lorgar Aurelian: "Will you stop trying to impress me while we're in the supermarket. The others might think I'm some sort of a deity to you." 18. Vulkan: "Son, I know you like hugs and fire and all but could you lessen it just for awhile?" 19. Corvus Corax: "Son, reading Edgar Allan Poe does not make you an edgy teen! 20. Alpharius Omegon: "Wait?! There's two of you? That's funny I remembered only one of you. Is there a bastard among you or what?"
Man. The Guilliman one is so wholesome. Even if we're being serious here, I honestly believe that out of all his sons, he was most proud of Roboute Guilliman. Granted he did not loved him like Sanguinius, but damn is he proud of him, and I can see him bragging to Malcador and the Custodians over just how accomplished Guilliman is. True he will not say it to his face, but I think the reason why he won't say it is because the Emperor doesn't really know how to express his emotions, and possibly because it would really piss off Horus and Lion, who are already madly jealous of Guilliman. Heck, Guilliman is so accomplished, he even got an Eldar waifu. How's that for being a chad. And that bit with the Lion, I don't know about you, but every eldest son has that one secret shame. Probably a xeno waifu, some secret fetish for traps, possibility of some of his bros have turned traitor, who knows...
@@ElBandito Hehehe. Yep. I can see why. Thicc, muscular ladies are mighty fine. Have you seen Oni women from them hentais. Now that's mighty fine right there.
wait didnt just the inner circle decide not to tell anybody what happend on calliban. I mean at that moment when the fallen appeared lion was put to sleep at the end of the battle for calliban. HMMM
Absolutely love chiming in each week to listen to your tales of 40k lore; well and truly subscribed to , to receive all upcoming video deployments thank you WolfLord.
First off. We don’t talk about them. Second off. I bet my right arm that they died/were infected during Rangdan xenocide by some sort of vamipres/werewolf kind of xenos and had to f*ck off from the Milk way to return as Rhirrim fashion when Chaos, Tyranids, Orks and Dark Eldar attack Terra during the end times. And then huge plot twist. They did not come to help Imperium. They come to destroy the Golden Throne and the entire Galaxy goes f*ck itself! The end.
@@michasalamon8315 I like to think they sided and found peace with the Xenos, aka like Star Trek Federation. Say what you will about Horus and the Traitors, at least they agreed mankind are superior. Hence them not getting erased
If you haven't read Lion El'Jonson: Lord of the First, there's two scenes of interaction between Lion and the Emperor. One is at the very beginning, one is at the very end.
Can you cover Mortarion moments, with his sons in the Buried Dagger, especially when he decided to personally end one of his sons suffering. And can you also do his early years on Barbarus, all of it was awesome and showed why he became what he was during the Great Crusade and Heresy.
Disagree... Fulgrim had agency and choice,... Angron had NO choice... not when he was a slave, not when he was leading the World Eaters, and definitely not when became a Primarch, Angron was always a slave, and what’s more tragic was that his “gift” from the Emperor was he could absorb and the emotional pain from others.. he had The Emperor’s gift of brotherhood; and even that gift was twisted so that he repelled his own sons. Angrons story is pure tragedy, Fulgrim just a pompous fool...
As someone who has had problems interacting and understanding people's desires before, I can say that a regular person with just a little bit too much self steem can forget about others' emotional needs or their peculiarities when interacting with them, simply by assuming they are on the same page. The Emperor is an almost divine being during the Crusade, he's lived for as long as civilization, he's met countless people during his life, it's no wonder he assumed his sons would be similar to him in regards to their stoicism when it comes to personal relations. In real life this might lead to arguments and fall outs, imagine if it involved immortal beings with power and authority over entire worlds.
I totally agree with you on Angron. After Curze he's the one Primarch who really got shortchanged by the Heresy series. Even the best-written appearance of his character (After Deshea) is more about Kharn being awesome than about Angron. It's a bit sad really...
Recently found your channel and I’ve been absolutely loving it! I just started reading The Solar War this morning and it occured to me that I’d really appreciate a Primarch roll call for the battle on Terra, like where each of them was and what they were doing and why at the moment that Big E was putting the smack down on Whorus.
Nah, dude, you hit the nail right on the head with Angron. I'm pretty sure the Emperor only picked up Angron so he'd have the full set, since Primarchs are only worth collecting if you manage to get them all. In all seriousness, there really isn't any reason the Emperor shouldn't have sent the War Hounds to aid Angron in the last battle. Nuceria was described as a backwater world, so having Angron and his army kill the people that were keeping the masses oppressed would have served multiple purposes. First, it would have endeared Angron to both his sons and the Emperor, for their assistance in the fight. Second, it would have gotten rid of some (almost certainly Chaos corrupted) nobles and opened vacancies in the planet's government in which the Emperor could put people he trusted. Third, it would have shown the people of the planet exactly what they could expect if they ever tried to leave the Imperium. If the Emperor had helped Angron instead of just snatching him from his army and running away, he would have turned one of his biggest adversaries into his staunchest supporter. All it would've taken was saying "If these people are your family, then allow your sons to join their ranks."
Timothy Meyer clone fulgurm would get his ass kicked what with the real fulgurm having a power boost being a daemon and all, I believe clone fulgurm would need one or more of his brothers in order even have chance to beat his daemon self.
You may not have read the Lion's primarch book yet, but he has a very trusted and easy relationship with his father. He asked his father what his direction for him was for the Great Crusade, and the Emperor just tells him to do what he thinks is right. In the book, the Lion is described as the final solution of the Emperor while Russ (while being COMPLETELY TRUSTED by the Emperor) was the threat of sanction. The new Lion novel really goes a long way to show us how there is little doubt that the Lion and the Wolf were two of the few that the Emperor truly knew would never turn.
The only Sanguineous scene I can think of was when the traitors were on the cusp of breaking Dorn’s defenses and Sanguineus told the Emperor that “I have never known fear, but right now, your silence terrifies me .” something along those lines.
In 'Angel Exterminatus' Perturabo flashes back to a conversation with the Emperor and it's genuinely heartwarming. It actually feels like an estranged father and son meeting & having a proper heart to heart. It was pretty surprising.
My favorite interaction is definitely with Corvus. He saw the Emperor's true self at first before his psychic glamour faded into the radiant golden giant. He was a nondescript man in a white robe... Then he just listened to everything Corvus told him & Corvus was truly happy to hear about having a family. It was really cool.... showed humanity in both Big E and Corvus.
In The Lion’s primarch novel it’s shown that the emperor and The Lion got along extremely well, with The Lion knowing that he could hold no secrets from the emperor and not having a shred of resentment because of it. He was also under no illusions that the emperor meant to be a father to him, but more a master and his prized weapon.
Would love to see you do one as to what was the roles and aspects or each primarch, then what that gives us about the 2 lost primarchs. Thanks this was Great.
You are so amazing every video i watch of yours I can feel your passion for the material and it infects me with the same wonder and passion and I go out and buy the books with giddyness that is stronger than being a kid on christmas day. It scares me that some day i'll have all the material and i'll have to wait for new stories >_
Neither was Roboute ever Emperor's favourite son nor was ever Emperor Roboute's favourite parent. It was only the duty he felt towards humanity and his maker that made him loyal. He had his father Konor and mother Tarasha. He not only named a world (and himself) after his "real" father but even his moniker, The Avenging Son, had nothing to do with the Emperor. He was the avenging son of Konor Guilliman. Absolutely love this about Guilliman.
I think the Emperor created his sons to be tools, without relationship. I feel he believed he was above emotion of a familial nature at that time, as humans tend to overestimate themselves when not faced with anything to say otherwise. I think he developed feelings for them upon meeting them, as a father does to a newborn. I think his years on the throne have turned him into the cold pseudo god he believed himself to be at the time of the Primarchs inception. After all, he is human, and humans change
Gah my friend, you have got to red Betrayer! Or better yet listen to it! I'll send ya a voucher for it too. It's so good and has one of the most human moments Angron ever has!
Anyone who grew up with siblings and/or parents can't help but relate to all of this. It's why the primarch-emperor storylines are among my favorites in 40k.
Alpharius’ “death” wasn’t confirmed, it was said to happen by an author that is a clear Dorn fanboy. That’s like if I write for Black Library and said Dorn died crying in a corner as Berserkers tear him apart, would Dorn fans accept it? Hell no, and they’d have every right to want that story gone.
As an Alpha Legion fan, Dorn most likely killed the real Omegon (pretending to be Alpharius). He didn't seem like the main character that was raised and mentored by Malcador personally.. Omegon in the book acted more like the character Dorn killed. Alpharius is playing both sides atm, staying out of the way and being the "Sword in the Dark" like Big E and Malcador wanted.
As a child of divorce with an estranged relationship with thy father, I have come to know the power of INDIFFERENCE. Though deep down I love thy father. I relate more with Lion and Khan.
@@wolflordrho little spoiler : conversation between Lion and E- some people need honors and gratitude about their achievements, some people- look at the Lion- don`t.
@@ukaszbiaek6641 You know I think that's why Johnson and Sanguinius got along so well. They just did their thing and were good at it but didn't care what others thought of them. Unlike Fulgrim or Russ who always sought their father's approval.
I actually really like fulgrim I really hope there is a chance he can be loyal again clone or otherwise sure he was a bit of a peacock but he wasn't full of himself he just wanted to be the best he could be and so did his legion
With how the Primarch novel series is going, the only ones that haven't been singularly published in the style of the others is Horus, Sanguinius, Rogal Dorn, Mortarion and Alpharius/Omegon. All of these sound like they could make for really promising stories, and maybe show more Emperor and Primarch interactions. Seeing Big E interact with Sanguinius, Mortarion and Alpharius more would be super interesting.
i swear 90% of this is "we haven't seen any interactions between *primarch* and the emperor". no issue with that though, very interesting and thought provoking video
I think the Angron - Emperor relationship needs to be re-done, instead of The Emperor just beaming up his son and taking him away, it would have been something akin to him falling to the slow and painful stranglehold like strain the Butchers nails were putting on his mind and the Emperor trying to find a way to fix it, but Angron was too far gone by the time something viable was found.
I believe there is a chapter in Mechanicus where Arkhan Land talks with the Emperor regarding Angron and hiw the Butcher's Nails are too engrained in his nervous system that even the Emperor could not remove the Nails without killing Angron.
I view the Emperor as kind of a helicopter dad. He loves his kids, but he also wants to control their lives, to the point where he bioengineered them for specific roles he picked out, and was going to indoctrinate them into said roles before they were even 'born'. After finding them, he doesn't assume direct control like most helicopter parents, but that's likely a compromise for his vision of what he needs them to do, since he knows they'd rebel harder if he did micromanage their lives.
I'm pressing [X] to doubt whenever anyone says the Emperor held any form of love for his children, they where simply his Magnum Opus when it came to tools of warfare, but at the end of the day they were still tools to him, just as like he was able to set aside his Thunder Warriors there's no doubt to me that he would eventually do the same to the Astartes and then their Genefathers would soon follow.
One thing that I use to help justify the Angron story is that he did intervene and helped Mortarion defeat his enemy and he was ungrateful. So if he would have stepped in and saved Angron and defeated his enemy I feel like he would have looked at it as a victory that was robbed from him. With Angron I feel like it was damned-if-you-do damned-if-you-don't. One thing that I think would have really helped the Angron character is if his Primarch book would have been good. That was the golden opportunity to really develop his story and instead we got a really terrible portrayal of the butchers nails and don't even get me started about the enemies on Gehenna. The book should have focused on Angron as a character and developing relationships with the other gladiators and planning the escape and the final battle and the interaction with the emperor. They could have gave Angron some dialogue stating that he did not want the emperor to intervene in the fight and would have not appreciated it if he saved him and his men and he would have seen it as a victory or honorable death stolen. So then the emperor would have no choice but to teleport him aboard the ship against his will.
Lion has my vote for “Primarch told about Chaos”. Number 1 was fighting Chaos before The Emperor found him. Could also be why The Emperor never doubted the Lion’s loyalty. If he was going to turn, he would have already.
By the Heresy I'd be surprised if most if not all of the Primarchs had encountered Chaos in some form. It could also have been Magnus he told as Prospero literally had Chaos creatures that fed on Psykers. Not to mention Perturabo was able to see Eye of Terror even as a boy. So don't be too sure it was Johnson he told. We really only know Horus and Lorgar were unaware of Chaos until Chaos sought them out.
It's pretty much canon that most of the primarchs knew something about chaos, tho it would also appear than the lion was trusted with much more knowledge in such matters than his brothers
@@morgancampbell3505 Most of his brothers. Likely due to the presence of Chaos on Caliban. However given that Prospero also had Chaos creatures it's likely Magnus may have been told as well. Especially considering he's the most powerful psychic among the Primarchs and quite capable at sorcery. Plus it would be logical to assume the Emperor may have told him after the Edict of Nikea to keep him from pushing too far. It could also explain why Tzeetch hid his identity from Magnus until Magnus no longer had a choice but to accept his help.
Though if it's not Johnson or Magnus then I've no idea.
@@chrisbennett6236 yeah both we're likely fairly knowledgeable or at least were supposed to be, the lion was effectively the emperor's ultimate weapon against particularly insidious threats, he did the things his other brothers we're too moral to do, things that were necessary to root out things like chaos or particular malevolent xenos, Magnus was designed to use the golden throne so would likely have been educated in chaos, or at least was supposed to be, whether that actually transpired in reality is questionable, he fell rather naively into tzeenchs grasp
@@morgancampbell3505 Yeah Tzeetch didn't reveal himself until Magnus was essentially backed into Corner by Russ. Though the fact that he was supposed to sit the Golden Throne at some point to keep Chaos out of the webways does suggest he either knew or would be told. Unfortunately GW has decided to run this lore like the 2nd and 11th with little to go on so we can only guess. But at this case we can be fairly certain it's Johnson or Magnus that knew about Chaos before the Heresy. Though given that both had dealt with it on their homeworlds it would be more logical that both knew. Hell the Emperor may not have told either of them they just figured it out on their own given the presence of Chaos on their homeworlds.
It's also interesting to not note that Caliban and Prospero were the two homeworlds that were more or less destroyed.
I think what is often forgotten is that despite the immense power, the almost unbearable charisma and the incredible age, the Emperor is still, human. He makes mistakes, does foolish things, because he is human.
Inquisitor: say it again?😶
No he's not! It is directly stated in the first chapter of Master of Mankind - the emperor is a loose weapon left over from the so-called 'dark age of technology'. It is not a human at all, not even close.
@@empireempire3545 wrong
The Emperor is the saddest joke in 40k. He tells everyone he's only human. Makes the single greatest mistake since the fall of the eldar in the Great Crusade( talk about terrible math. Chaos minus worshippers plus an entire galaxy of war feeding every emotion and condition the Warp Powers feed off of does not equal starving out Chaos. The last 10k years have been an absolute all you can eat buffet across the galaxy because of the Emperor's hubris.) and then gets worshipped as a God to add irony to the shit storm that is the complete failure of everything he tried to accomplish including knowing all the brutal and genocidal tactics he used were for absolutely nothing and indeed probably fed Chaos even more.
What is human about that fucking thing lol
We see Perturabo's first meeting with the Emperor at the end of his Primarch book. Perturabo is overjoyed and happy about meeting and getting praised by The Emperor, but The Emperor has a moment of sadness, almost as if he knew, that the hardship of beeing The Emperor's great Hammer would break or hurt Perturabo.
His sister she put him in his place.
@@colinmack8655 yes, she definitely said some truths, he could not accept. And killing her broke him afterwards.
Kristian Kristiansen man Angel Exterminatus added depth into Perturabo
@@BUSSTISEBOOST yes it really did, it also had to make up for the bad take on him in Crimson Fist by John French. The only story in the Horus Heresy, where a force lead by a Primarch is loosing to not-a-primarch spacemarine force.
It's really a shame the "forgotten Primarchs" had specialties of "Trust Building" and "Communication Mastery" #MissedOpportunities
I thought one of the lost primarchs had an affinity of using and refining xenos tech and the other one more of a bestial/primal one
@@DonPetexX There's no lore at all about them. Only that they were purged from Imperial records for unknown reasons. I know not a lot to go on.
The OP was making a joke, my dudes.
There is Vulcan though
r/im14andthisiswooosh
RG is like the A+ kid who doesnt get as much attention despite their good achievements.
In emperor's defense. He prob didn't NEED the attention. Emperor dad probably trusted him completely
@@totallynotalpharius2283 I agree
List of simple things that the Emperor could have done to prevent the Horus Heresy:
1. Explain to Magnus (and Horus) why he shouldn't use the warp and educate him on Chaos
2. Save Angron's friends
3. Not order the destruction of Monarchia
4. Kill Erebus and Kor Phaeron
5. Not underestimate the Chaos Gods
6. Tell Lorgar that He is not a god, but being revered as a Saint figure could make a good alternative.
7. Put Angron (and his friends) in stasis until they find a way to remove the Nails.
8. Give some love to Perty.
9. Have a giant mock-up battle between the Fists and the Warriors on Terra to test the Imperial Palace's defenses. Use the collected data by both sides to improve them. Pert has the occasion to shine and puts an end to his rivalry with Dorn. Two birds, one stone.
@Miguel Mauro Force him into a bathtub
@@noxflo897 "He always smelled like shit anyway."
@Miguel Mauro So did the Emperor. 🐸☕
The heresy still would have happened. Perhaps the list of traitors would be different. It was inevitable that someone would be corrupted by Chaos given that they were immortal beings and Chaos had infinite time to corrupt somebody. It might have taken 200 million years but eventually a legion would be turned.
Conversely, there is no way to end Chaos. The warp will always be there watching and hungering for souls. Neither side can ever truly exterminate the other.
I'd love to see the loyal fulgrim clone redeeming himslef in the eyes of the emperor
I wish they retcon and say Fulgrim is still in that painting. Then his soul can be free and put in a clone body.
@@jofr6892 ooo what if that painting is how fabius gave clone Fulgrim a soul?
That would be the bee's knee's!
I like to think that part of the reason The Emperor is still holding on to life, despite the absolute agony he endures, is to get that one shot at vengeance against the Chaos Gods for what they turned his beloved sons into. Especially Horus.
That and his love for humanity as a whole, he always considered himself human first and foremost, the pinnacle of what humanity is capable of reaching if they just grasp it, he wants his people to succeed just as he has.
@vulkin of the salamanders Vulkan lives?...
Kind of new to all this, but wouldn't the Emperor resurrect if they killed him? Being a perpetual and all?
@@harrisonbeesonvo Even a Perpetual can die. Malcador was a Perpetual, but sitting on the Golden Throne for as long as he did burned up is soul to such a degree that there was nothing left to heal.
The Chaos Gods have also demonstrated they can kill or at the very least render other Gods broken, as we've seen from Slaanesh massacring the Eldar Pantheon, save for Isha who was "Rescued" by Nurgle, Kaine who's in pieces and Cegorach who's just chilling in the Black Library.
The fact that the Cusdoes even exists implies it's very possible to harm The Emperor to a degree even He couldn't come back from.
@@randomcenturion7264 oh, I see. I was talking to my brother about this (he's a big fan), and he was telling me there was some storyline about someone trying to kill the Emperor to resurrect him; any idea on what that story is? Would love to read it
The Emperor: "Who's the best good boy in the whole Galaxy?
Russ: 🐺?
The Emperor: "YOU ARE, RUSS! YES YOU ARE!"
Russ: 🐶!
The mighty furrie if fenris is not the best, not at all lol
@Deathcoldan indeed Magnus couldn't even pick up the phone to talk to russ and avoid the destruction
@@logandelaharpe6317 goes common sense is dead in those two. I mean any of them could have called the other and talked about what's going to happen, magnus already accepted his fate and cared for his legion so it feels out of character to go "yeah let's all die"
@@DonPetexX russ repeatedly tried to talk to Magnus and get his side of story he did not want to kill another brother but Magnus refused to talk
Forcing his hand
"You are Weeeak, Vulkan!"
- The skost of Ferrus Manus, who is not-friend.
"Shut up! The real Ferrus would say the opposite!"
Tokisaki Kurumi so true
A skoooosssst
@@darthkaton a skull ghost
Most of the Heresy can be boiled down to "dammit, Lorgar!"
WorldNetExplorer blame lorgar.
We've actually seen twice now where the Emperor went soft on one of his sons. First with Horus, trying to talk him down before taking the fight more seriously. And more recently he only chased Mortarion off without really hurting him.
Unfortunately being forced to kill Horus, destroying his soul, I'm concerned that the Emperor will be gun shy in dealing with his fallen sons.
I am less worried that he would be gun shy, but considering Robute's conversation with big E on the throne, I am more concerned that he sacrificed all of his humanity along with his compassion in order to end Horus. If he came back with no compassion, empathy or humanity; he will be the worst despot humanity has ever had. its even possible that he would become a chaos god akin to the version of him in the fan fic "The Shape of the Nightmare to Come". a brutal, unyielding, uncompromising, unforgiving and merciless god of order and tyranny.
@@MrKago1 I thought that was the case after Guilliman spoke with him. But when Guilliman was being overwhelmed by Mortarion's forces the Emperor intervened and killed all the demons but he didn't hurt Mortarion he just chased him off. I realized that he hesitated yet again to hurt one of his sons. Perhaps he knows something about Mortarion that hasn't been revealed yet.
Well the Emperor is anathema to the chaos gods so perhaps he knows how to purge his sons of corruption and redeem them. Surely this outcome coupled with a penitence crusade would do more good for humanity.
@@CallofWar5 Very true. And we know he can revive the dead Primarchs as he hinted at reviving Ferris Manus in his conversation with Malcador prior to Horus reaching Terra. We also know he destroyed Horus' soul because he knew Chaos could retake him. Definitely an interesting thought.
@@chrisbennett6236 perhaps he thinks Mortarion can be saved. would be epic.
A conversation between the Emperor and Lion L Johnson :
Big E : ...
The Lion : ...
True
Big E "alright good talk"
Lion "Yeah"
When your son never had social interaction
I remember that despite his absolute loyalty to his father, Sanguinius also dreaded that should the Emperor discover the flaw within the Blood Angels he and his legion would go the way of the other lost primarchs/legions.
Yeah, the Angels true fear of being disposed of in an instant, by his "father" no less really gives me hesitation when people claim the Big-E loved his son's. I think he valued them, as a sculptor values their masterpieces...but also was willing to sell them should the need arise, just like any artist sells their works.
25 mins of the Wolf lord. Today we have been blessed by the Emperor himself!
Just goes to show you, the benefits of having a 2 parent household. If the empress of mankind was around maybe all the boys wouldn't of gone all heresy
This made me laugh far more than it should've.
@@btchbgd8786 HERESY *bolter fire*
Well you have a fair point there, rowboat had a mother on maccragge. Something that was unique for him alone. Having a female presence in his life growing up. He did turn out a bit more adjusted than a few of his brothers.
That didnt work very well for Henry II. In fact Eleanor of Acquitaine actively encouraged her sons to rebel.
Pretty sure the mother of the Primarchs (Erda) did not aprove of the Emperor's plans
Can we get a series of these. How each of the primarchs thoughts of the other ones. the best part of the heresy is the dynamic between these all too human gods
Yeah!!!
@@lilpretzel5629 O romanca urmarnd Warhammer 40k! Sunt impresionat!
I'm going to suggest you Google the Tarot Arcana of Primarchs. It associates each Primarch(including the missing ones) with one of the Major Arcana, and gives an insight into their relationships with one another. In theory, it's all hypothetical, but the predictions made by the Tarot line up pretty well with the interactions we've seen in the lore.
The world goes crazy and Rho gives us a 25 min vid. Big thank you. Have a nice weekend.
When you mention lemun fleeing into the depths of the imperial palace in grief after the emporer was entombed on the golden throne is bloody heartbreaking.
Imagine how hard it was on Dorn and Jaghatai actually watching him being entombed.
I must say out of all the primarchs lemun russ and Vulkan are the ones that care the most for the emperor and their brothers even though russ is the executioner he doesn't want to hurt his brothers he would much rather save them from the chaos Gods
I feel that the Emperor in all his wisdom should have spent one on one time with each of his sons and told them about chaos. So much could have been avoided from that alone. Simply say something like "Listen my sons, There is a great danger that you all must be aware of and by all means avoid at any and all costs. For the cost of allowing them to consume you would be too great and terrible to imagine. I speak of Chaos, and yes there are Gods Lorgar but they are evil and will use you for their own means alone this is why I don't want you to worship me as a God, but to strive for the ultimate goal I have given each of you to fulfill. I Love all of you, My beloved sons in whom I am well pleased. Now go forth and continue this crusade in the knowledge that I am truly proud of you my sons." There has to be a transparent and unifying relationship with no secrets or lies. Only truth. The Imperial TRUTH.
Honestly I'd be surprised if most of the Primarchs hadn't encountered Chaos in some form by the Heresy. Hell Prospero literally had Chaos creatures that fed on Psykers. So another planet that already had Chaos on it. Also people need to stop saying that only Johnson grew up on a death world or a with Chaos cause it just isn't true. And I'm not even talking about Feral worlds like Fenris, Chogorus Nocturne or Baal. The feral beasts will kill you just as dead as toxins or Chaos.
But that sounds too wholesome
He would have known that the temptation would have been too great for some of them though, surely.
To be fair, Malcador kind of addressed this when he was asked about it by Dorn and Sanguinius. To paraphrase, he essentially said that the Primarchs would mobilize against Chaos as if it were a material threat if they knew about it, or they would seek to understand or use it, all of which would have turned out badly (mainly because of how Tzeentch works). Being aware of how the Warp works, the Emperor probably figured it would be best not to acknowledge the Dark Gods at all, in order to not feed them. To deny them by replacing them with belief in human ascendancy and reason. Given that the gods reward their followers with eternal life through daemonhood when they commit horrific atrocities in their name, and given the miserable and desperate state of most humans in the galaxy, it makes sense that the Emperor did not want people to know about Chaos.
I grant your point on how the Emperor should have had a closer relationship with His sons. But again, to be fair, He lost the chance to be a father when the Dark Gods stole the Primarchs in their infancy. They each grew up with vastly disparate cultures on different planets, and as such, had differing and often conflicting worldviews. Many of them had adopted parents of their own. The Emperor was in a tough position balancing the needs and emotions and duties of His sons from the moment He had to start searching for them.
@@Kidbizzaro6 Yes I do agree with what you are saying about the Emperor not wanting to let humanity know about chaos. I meant to say that only his sons should know about it since they are primarchs. But yea definitely do not let the rest of humanity know of there existence was a good strategy. Also in regards to the chaos Gods taking away the Emperor's sons, It is quite understandable why He couldn't improve his relationship with them, which to me is a tragedy. But what am i saying this is warhammer 40k and in the grim darkness there is only war.
I liked Horus, Sanguinius and Magnus the best. My little Magny Magic that I knew since he was a baby we would talk before we even met face to face. Horus was the first I found and never dissapointed me until je did sob.
And Sanguinius my golden little Hawk Boy.
And me father?
@@sokratikas Ugh
@@malekiththeeternityking5433 why you treat me bad all time?!
@@sokratikas I gave you my sword stop whining.
@@sokratikas Besides we've had our moments haven't we boy? Remember when I sent you to push Lorgar around eh?
Honestly, I wouldn't be too broken up if the Emperor and Angron's situation got retconned a bit. It never made sense to me that the Emperor didn't unleash the War Hounds to back Angron up to get him more on-side. I refuse to believe that the legion couldn't have easily handled that situation on top of which demonstrate the might of the Imperium to Angron. Hell his buddies probably would have tried to join up like every other Primarch's entourage did when they were found. The current telling just feels lazy.
And always more Russ!
The reason seems lazy is cause most people only take into account one thing: whether that individual battle could be won. The reason the Emperor didn't is two-fold: first he didn't have the numbers to go beyond that fight, second their were still high odds Angron would be killed in the battle. The Emperor ultimately wasn't willing to risk Angron's life. He had just refound him after all.
@@chrisbennett6236 no I think it was just a shitty cannon story. An entire legion would have zero problems pacifying a single world. The emperor just comes off as intentionally pushing Angron against him
They could retcon it to were the emperor saves agron and his buddies, emperor provides research on removing the nails, but requires agron to go no a crusade, leaving his bretheran to undergo the procedure without him. The procedure fails killing most of his brothers and seeing the stage for angrons hate.
Could you imagine if Russ, Corax, and the Khan all returned together from the warp with the fruit from the tree of life. 3 returned primarchs and a rejuvenated Emperor. 🤩
IS THAT A CRUSADE I HEAR?
Russ is currently in Commoragh with the Fyodperor and Corvus is leading his own crusade back to Terra after seeing Vulkan get revived by WAAAAAGH power
@@phantomwraith1984 but not until Vulkan hugs everyone in path to Terra
I think the problem with Angron is that beyond just the Butcher's Nails, he spent his entire life before his location was discovered by the Emperor as a slave. The property of someone else, robbed of the freedom to make his own choices. His rebellion and inevitable death at the hands of his enslavers was all part of the first true choice he had ever been able to make. And when the Emperor then saves his life, whether out of a callous need for a primarch to lead the XIIth Legion or out of a genuine desire to save someone he viewed as a son, he took away the one and only thing Angron desired in life. Agency. Angron didn't want to die out of a simple deathwish. If that was the case, he would have found a way to end his life in capitivity. He wanted to die the way he decided for himself. And he couldn't even have that.
Chaos didn't give him agency either.
@@headlibrarian1996 That's not really the point. The point is that his loyalty to the Emperor was out of the question from the moment the Emperor rescued him from Nuceria. Even if Chaos had never tried to corrupt Angron, he'd likely have turned renegade eventually.
Man, that is a terrific insight.
Was about to say... Out of all the Primarchs, Angron was probably the most justified in his treachery.
The anger, the Butcher's Nail in his head, slowly killing him...
That freedom of choice, for Angron to either go out on his own terms... Of course Angron would hate his father. His father, in his eyes, practically doomed him to die as a slave (slowly to the nail) than as a warrior (on the battlefield with the other slaves.)
Agreed, black library is failing us. The 40k universe’s lore is so rich at face value but needs to be delved into and explored in far greater detail. Ty wolf lord, enjoy that new Ragnar Blackmane model :D
Strongly agree that the Angron- Emperor relationship needs to be expanded and better described. It blows my mind that the Emperor didn’t either A) help Angron save his friends or B) Put Angron down as the rabid dog that he was. We could open up a whole line of tragedy around the Emperor not being able to put him down out of love but knowing that he should...
It was Master of Mankind.
He even went to the lengths of seeking the aid of Arkham Land (A Mechanicus prodigy) who was an expert of Archeotech to see if he had any idea how to help.
Tactically the Emperor didn't have the means to fight a prolonged campaign on the planet, and he evaluated that helping Angron would result in unnecessary losses. As to why he kill Angron, the answer is simple: he is his son. He even tried to remove the Nails but they were designed to kill the victim if removed. No father wants to kill their child after finding them after such a long time.
@Devon Crusader Your entitled to your opinion. I however was simply pointing out why he didn't help him or kill him.
Chris Bennett Makes sense that the Emperor couldn’t help so he didn’t, but the second part feels a bit loose to me. The Emperor is pretty ruthless by nature and he was not incapable of purging #2 and #11. I feel like more detail about their relationship would help explain that. Why was Angron, a pain and rage fueled time bomb, allowed to live while 2 others were not?
@@lokiorin5520 We don't know what happened to 2 and 11. The only thing we know for sure is that they were purged from records but what happened to them is unknown. Though I will say based on what little we have it does sound like one or the other fell in battle and one is missing. They are referred to as the Lost and Fallen. The purging part is only that they were purged from records. Plus we have actually canon lore of how the Emperor dealt with two sons: Horus and Mortarion. Both times he hesitated and went easy on them. So to say he's ruthless and took out two of his sons isn't supported by the canon. We can only base it on how he dealt with the ones we know about.
It's worth remembering that the 3rd found Primarch was one of the lost Primarchs. So Emps was probably quite close with him as he was with Russ & Horus. Might explain his distance towards some of the later ones if he lost/had to kill one of his favoured sons.
It calls my attention that almost all loyalist primarchs had their brief childhoods surrounded by people (or a wolf mother) that care for them, some even had actual adoptive fathers and that is probably what made them more secure about themselves and their rol in life.
In "Deliverance Lost" Corax makes this reflection about how him might had turned like the Nigth Hunter had not been raised by people that showed him compasion. Wich is an interesting point because almost all* of the traitor primarchs had shitty childhoods that messed them up , while Lorgar did had an adoptive father but the guy brainwashed and used him.
With all the "GRIM DARKNESS" of 40K at least the Horus Heresy series has some really strong emotional stuff and a relevant message about the importance of family.
Look at Bobby G. He had a decent family (king Konor Guilliman as adoptive father and seneschal Tarasha Euten as adoptive mother). It has provided him with enough stability, that even witnessing the incredibly sorry state of the Imperium and getting completely disillusioned with how Emperor was seeing Primarchs wasn't enough to make him wash his hands and decide to abandon all hope in recovering the Imperium.
Well everyone except maybe Lion and Mort
We all know the Emperor’s favorite were the 2, lost and purged Primarchs. That’s why he has hard relationship with his other sons. Because the failure ( or success ) of the other 2. One could be out there right now going past our galaxy to see what is out there.
Everyone forgets Master of Mankind when the Emperor is playing Malcador and realizes Sanguinius will die he is very sad and upset and never thought he would lose his Angel. So I say good relationship but can't make the argument for favorite due to lack of interactions.
Glorious hawk boy
Horus is favorite
@@logandelaharpe6317 Horus is perceived favorite thus far but I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually find out either Sanguinius or Vulcan was his favorite. We do know he loved Horus and didn't want to kill him.
The Emperor went out of his way to save Mortarion and Angron upon first finding them. Both because they were about to do something foolish and be killed but like he said to Mortarion: you are my son I couldn't let you die.
We know the Emperor didn't have good relationships with either Angron or Mortarion but the thought of them dying didn't sit well with him. So imagine how he'd feel if he lost one of the sons he did have a good relationship with. So of course knowing Sanguinius was going to die saddened him but it also lends credit to him doing everything he could to save Sanguinius. What we need is clear lore about whether Sanguinius was dead or dying when the Emperor arrived.
@@chrisbennett6236 if he was dying it's possible on top of holding back against horus his focus might of been split using his powers to attempt to save the angel and attempting to save horus
I'm actually surprised that there hasn't been any lore between Sanguinius and the Emperor. Hell we even have lore with Jaghatai so we know that they at least respected each other.
A primarch and emperor video truly a blessing from the emperor thanks rho for the video
Konrad Curze's vision of his Father and his perspective on their relationship are detailed in "Night Lord". Definitly one of the best and with no doubt one of the darkest Black Librairy books.
Just finished “Legion” amazing book, made me think the alpha legion are now probably my favourite legion, I wish there was more about them but that would probably ruin the whole mystic of the alpha legion! Would love a book with alpharius omegon meeting the emperor. I think they’re still working on trying to achieve the emperors goals, even in m41! Disappointed with Fulgrim being retconned and actually voluntarily turning to chaos, the end of Fulgrim was honestly hard hitting, knowing he made a mistake and had to watch that and pay for that one mistake for the rest of his life. Felt wasted and cheapened by what happens later!
-why are you attacking us? We're on the same side!
-for the emperor
Try "Sons of the Hydra"! It's a 40k Book, so it has no Primarch scenes (or has it?!); but it's really well wirtten and showes some of the things the Legion is up to in the current timeline :)
How the emperor probably thinks about his sons:
1. Lion El'Jonson: "Just tell me the truth son. I won't get angry."
2. The 2nd Legion Primarch: "I'm sorry what was your name again?"
3. Fulgrim: "Son... I think you're staring on the mirror way too much lately."
4. Perturabo: "What did I told you earlier! I said no whining!"
5. Jaghatai Khan: "Will you just stay put even for a couple of seconds already?"
6. Leman Russ: "Try not sleeping with the dog before you go to sleep tonight, okay?"
7. Rogal Dorn: "Don't take everything literally, son. Also, don't fight with your brother too much, kay?"
8. Konrad Curze: "Son, I think you should lay off from the eyeliner."
9. Sanguinius: "My precious baby angel boy."
10. Ferrus Manus: "I think having too much arm wrestling is a little bit excessive."
11. 11th Legion Primarch: "For the last time! I'm not your baby daddy"
12. Angron: "I only said we're leaving from this place. Don't go pouting on me, mister!"
13. Roboute Guilliman: "So we're building an empire, huh? Like father, like son."
14. Mortarion: "Try taking a bath sometimes, son."
15. Magnus the Red: "Will you just go outside already! Your skin is already turning red for my sake."
16. Horus Lupercal: "Ahhh.. my precious bald baby boy!"
17. Lorgar Aurelian: "Will you stop trying to impress me while we're in the supermarket. The others might think I'm some sort of a deity to you."
18. Vulkan: "Son, I know you like hugs and fire and all but could you lessen it just for awhile?"
19. Corvus Corax: "Son, reading Edgar Allan Poe does not make you an edgy teen!
20. Alpharius Omegon: "Wait?! There's two of you? That's funny I remembered only one of you. Is there a bastard among you or what?"
Man. The Guilliman one is so wholesome. Even if we're being serious here, I honestly believe that out of all his sons, he was most proud of Roboute Guilliman. Granted he did not loved him like Sanguinius, but damn is he proud of him, and I can see him bragging to Malcador and the Custodians over just how accomplished Guilliman is. True he will not say it to his face, but I think the reason why he won't say it is because the Emperor doesn't really know how to express his emotions, and possibly because it would really piss off Horus and Lion, who are already madly jealous of Guilliman. Heck, Guilliman is so accomplished, he even got an Eldar waifu. How's that for being a chad.
And that bit with the Lion, I don't know about you, but every eldest son has that one secret shame. Probably a xeno waifu, some secret fetish for traps, possibility of some of his bros have turned traitor, who knows...
@@someorclad9738 Pfft, who cares about skinny Eldar girls? Ogryn waifu best waifu!
@@ElBandito Hehehe. Yep. I can see why. Thicc, muscular ladies are mighty fine. Have you seen Oni women from them hentais. Now that's mighty fine right there.
@@someorclad9738 Yep, completely loyal, and can headbutt an Ork Warboss if it threatens you.
wait didnt just the inner circle decide not to tell anybody what happend on calliban. I mean at that moment when the fallen appeared lion was put to sleep at the end of the battle for calliban. HMMM
Absolutely love chiming in each week to listen to your tales of 40k lore; well and truly subscribed to , to receive all upcoming video deployments thank you WolfLord.
The Emperor's rant in TTS 12 "Primarch Pessimism" also gives an idea.
You made a clear point of the spoilers, but did not give much away to make people avoid the books. thumbs up! Continue the good work.
....but what of his relationship with II and XI, aka Malal and Sigmar? :D
First off. We don’t talk about them.
Second off. I bet my right arm that they died/were infected during Rangdan xenocide by some sort of vamipres/werewolf kind of xenos and had to f*ck off from the Milk way to return as Rhirrim fashion when Chaos, Tyranids, Orks and Dark Eldar attack Terra during the end times.
And then huge plot twist. They did not come to help Imperium. They come to destroy the Golden Throne and the entire Galaxy goes f*ck itself! The end.
@@michasalamon8315 I like to think they sided and found peace with the Xenos, aka like Star Trek Federation. Say what you will about Horus and the Traitors, at least they agreed mankind are superior. Hence them not getting erased
Wouldn't be Malice number XI (11) instead of 2 (II)?
If you haven't read Lion El'Jonson: Lord of the First, there's two scenes of interaction between Lion and the Emperor. One is at the very beginning, one is at the very end.
Can you cover Mortarion moments, with his sons in the Buried Dagger, especially when he decided to personally end one of his sons suffering. And can you also do his early years on Barbarus, all of it was awesome and showed why he became what he was during the Great Crusade and Heresy.
Fulgrims downfall is so tragic,
Because it was so sudden and so so far
#agree
He's basically arthas from warcraft 3 ^^
I think Magnus’s fall into chaos was also pretty tragic
Disagree... Fulgrim had agency and choice,... Angron had NO choice... not when he was a slave, not when he was leading the World Eaters, and definitely not when became a Primarch, Angron was always a slave, and what’s more tragic was that his “gift” from the Emperor was he could absorb and the emotional pain from others.. he had The Emperor’s gift of brotherhood; and even that gift was twisted so that he repelled his own sons. Angrons story is pure tragedy, Fulgrim just a pompous fool...
As someone who has had problems interacting and understanding people's desires before, I can say that a regular person with just a little bit too much self steem can forget about others' emotional needs or their peculiarities when interacting with them, simply by assuming they are on the same page.
The Emperor is an almost divine being during the Crusade, he's lived for as long as civilization, he's met countless people during his life, it's no wonder he assumed his sons would be similar to him in regards to their stoicism when it comes to personal relations.
In real life this might lead to arguments and fall outs, imagine if it involved immortal beings with power and authority over entire worlds.
“Alpharius is confirmed dead!” *The fat Alpharius controller laughs* You are wrong
0:17 I agree, I feel that the human emperor is far more interesting than the idea that he saw them as tools.
I totally agree with you on Angron. After Curze he's the one Primarch who really got shortchanged by the Heresy series.
Even the best-written appearance of his character (After Deshea) is more about Kharn being awesome than about Angron. It's a bit sad really...
Digging the look at all primarchs at once!
This is exactly the video i've been looking for thank you very much
Recently found your channel and I’ve been absolutely loving it! I just started reading The Solar War this morning and it occured to me that I’d really appreciate a Primarch roll call for the battle on Terra, like where each of them was and what they were doing and why at the moment that Big E was putting the smack down on Whorus.
Another great one! The novel betrayer has a lot of great POV of angron and lorgar which bears checking out
Great long vid Rho. Fully enjoyed during my dog walk.
Nah, dude, you hit the nail right on the head with Angron. I'm pretty sure the Emperor only picked up Angron so he'd have the full set, since Primarchs are only worth collecting if you manage to get them all.
In all seriousness, there really isn't any reason the Emperor shouldn't have sent the War Hounds to aid Angron in the last battle. Nuceria was described as a backwater world, so having Angron and his army kill the people that were keeping the masses oppressed would have served multiple purposes. First, it would have endeared Angron to both his sons and the Emperor, for their assistance in the fight. Second, it would have gotten rid of some (almost certainly Chaos corrupted) nobles and opened vacancies in the planet's government in which the Emperor could put people he trusted. Third, it would have shown the people of the planet exactly what they could expect if they ever tried to leave the Imperium.
If the Emperor had helped Angron instead of just snatching him from his army and running away, he would have turned one of his biggest adversaries into his staunchest supporter. All it would've taken was saying "If these people are your family, then allow your sons to join their ranks."
You make some good points my friend, very good video. Keep up the great work brother.
Nice touch on Alpharius's figure with the shadowy Omegon behind him.
I never new how much I needed to see loyalist clone Fulgrim vs demon Fulgrim...
Dam you Tarzyn, release loyal fulgrim from your captivity.
Timothy Meyer clone fulgurm would get his ass kicked what with the real fulgurm having a power boost being a daemon and all, I believe clone fulgurm would need one or more of his brothers in order even have chance to beat his daemon self.
Love all your videos! Thank you xx
When you mentioned Dorn you forgot his Mustaches. By the Emperor those were glorious. I hope they return with him commanding chapter of their own.....
You may not have read the Lion's primarch book yet, but he has a very trusted and easy relationship with his father. He asked his father what his direction for him was for the Great Crusade, and the Emperor just tells him to do what he thinks is right. In the book, the Lion is described as the final solution of the Emperor while Russ (while being COMPLETELY TRUSTED by the Emperor) was the threat of sanction.
The new Lion novel really goes a long way to show us how there is little doubt that the Lion and the Wolf were two of the few that the Emperor truly knew would never turn.
I can’t wait to read it!
This is why we need a Great Crusade series, like the Horus heresy stuff.
The only Sanguineous scene I can think of was when the traitors were on the cusp of breaking Dorn’s defenses and Sanguineus told the Emperor that “I have never known fear, but right now, your silence terrifies me .” something along those lines.
In 'Angel Exterminatus' Perturabo flashes back to a conversation with the Emperor and it's genuinely heartwarming. It actually feels like an estranged father and son meeting & having a proper heart to heart. It was pretty surprising.
The Emperor: Dont you talk bad about my hawk boi!
This.channel is so good I hardly go to other warhmmaer channels anymore
Did Vulcan see/meet with the Emperor during the War of the Beast? It would be interesting to see what kind of reception he got there.
What an inspiring video. Love it.
My favorite interaction is definitely with Corvus. He saw the Emperor's true self at first before his psychic glamour faded into the radiant golden giant. He was a nondescript man in a white robe... Then he just listened to everything Corvus told him & Corvus was truly happy to hear about having a family. It was really cool.... showed humanity in both Big E and Corvus.
In The Lion’s primarch novel it’s shown that the emperor and The Lion got along extremely well, with The Lion knowing that he could hold no secrets from the emperor and not having a shred of resentment because of it. He was also under no illusions that the emperor meant to be a father to him, but more a master and his prized weapon.
What if each warp storm represents the birth of each chaos god, and the great rift represents the Emperor awakening???
Would love to see you do one as to what was the roles and aspects or each primarch, then what that gives us about the 2 lost primarchs. Thanks this was Great.
Once again, after being at the restaurant another long day, this is the only thing to take my head away from it all
Keep up the great videos :) love your content
You are so amazing every video i watch of yours I can feel your passion for the material and it infects me with the same wonder and passion and I go out and buy the books with giddyness that is stronger than being a kid on christmas day. It scares me that some day i'll have all the material and i'll have to wait for new stories >_
Neither was Roboute ever Emperor's favourite son nor was ever Emperor Roboute's favourite parent. It was only the duty he felt towards humanity and his maker that made him loyal.
He had his father Konor and mother Tarasha. He not only named a world (and himself) after his "real" father but even his moniker, The Avenging Son, had nothing to do with the Emperor. He was the avenging son of Konor Guilliman.
Absolutely love this about Guilliman.
I truly enjoyed that!
As far as I'm concerned TTS is canon and Dorn is wandering around the palace dressed like an Imperial Fist in silence.
I think the Emperor created his sons to be tools, without relationship. I feel he believed he was above emotion of a familial nature at that time, as humans tend to overestimate themselves when not faced with anything to say otherwise. I think he developed feelings for them upon meeting them, as a father does to a newborn. I think his years on the throne have turned him into the cold pseudo god he believed himself to be at the time of the Primarchs inception. After all, he is human, and humans change
I love this video! I feel this is my favorite of your videos so far very great than you I enjoyed every minute of it.
Thank you
@@wolflordrho thank you! You're lore videos are the best and I'll watch them over and over as long as they exist lol
Hi just wanted to say you really naailed it perfect explaination for magnus conrad curze and the alpha brothers
Gah my friend, you have got to red Betrayer! Or better yet listen to it! I'll send ya a voucher for it too. It's so good and has one of the most human moments Angron ever has!
i think we got some new interactions between the emperor and the lion in the book Lion lord of the first, that basically confirm what you said here =)
You da man Wolf Lord Rho. Such a great respect for such great lore. I grant you my respect, in turn!
Anyone who grew up with siblings and/or parents can't help but relate to all of this. It's why the primarch-emperor storylines are among my favorites in 40k.
Alpharius’ “death” wasn’t confirmed, it was said to happen by an author that is a clear Dorn fanboy. That’s like if I write for Black Library and said Dorn died crying in a corner as Berserkers tear him apart, would Dorn fans accept it? Hell no, and they’d have every right to want that story gone.
Alpharius lives how do I know
IAM ALPHARIUS !
As an Alpha Legion fan, Dorn most likely killed the real Omegon (pretending to be Alpharius). He didn't seem like the main character that was raised and mentored by Malcador personally.. Omegon in the book acted more like the character Dorn killed. Alpharius is playing both sides atm, staying out of the way and being the "Sword in the Dark" like Big E and Malcador wanted.
I love how there is a face behind alpharius indicating his twin.
I just noticed that in the portrait of Apharius you can actually see Omegon peering out from the darkness behind him.
The ultimate video for this channel. Let's face it, it's Wahammer Primach Lore, not 40K.
Didn't Alpharius switch his consciousness with one of his librarians before he fought Dorn?
One spirit, two bodies...
I am Alpharius.
As a child of divorce with an estranged relationship with thy father, I have come to know the power of INDIFFERENCE. Though deep down I love thy father. I relate more with Lion and Khan.
25 min video
"A blessing from the lord"
about Lion, look at new novel about him ,there are some fantastic momets with Emps :p
Can’t wait to read it!
@@wolflordrho little spoiler : conversation between Lion and E- some people need honors and gratitude about their achievements, some people- look at the Lion- don`t.
@@ukaszbiaek6641 there's even a juicier bit about expunged legions.
@@wizzolo true
@@ukaszbiaek6641 You know I think that's why Johnson and Sanguinius got along so well. They just did their thing and were good at it but didn't care what others thought of them. Unlike Fulgrim or Russ who always sought their father's approval.
Remember the whole Alpha legion prophecy comes from the Xenos just saying.
I actually really like fulgrim I really hope there is a chance he can be loyal again clone or otherwise sure he was a bit of a peacock but he wasn't full of himself he just wanted to be the best he could be and so did his legion
"Upon the Emperor's death...". What?! HERESY!
With how the Primarch novel series is going, the only ones that haven't been singularly published in the style of the others is Horus, Sanguinius, Rogal Dorn, Mortarion and Alpharius/Omegon. All of these sound like they could make for really promising stories, and maybe show more Emperor and Primarch interactions. Seeing Big E interact with Sanguinius, Mortarion and Alpharius more would be super interesting.
i swear 90% of this is "we haven't seen any interactions between *primarch* and the emperor".
no issue with that though, very interesting and thought provoking video
I think the Angron - Emperor relationship needs to be re-done, instead of The Emperor just beaming up his son and taking him away, it would have been something akin to him falling to the slow and painful stranglehold like strain the Butchers nails were putting on his mind and the Emperor trying to find a way to fix it, but Angron was too far gone by the time something viable was found.
I believe there is a chapter in Mechanicus where Arkhan Land talks with the Emperor regarding Angron and hiw the Butcher's Nails are too engrained in his nervous system that even the Emperor could not remove the Nails without killing Angron.
I view the Emperor as kind of a helicopter dad. He loves his kids, but he also wants to control their lives, to the point where he bioengineered them for specific roles he picked out, and was going to indoctrinate them into said roles before they were even 'born'. After finding them, he doesn't assume direct control like most helicopter parents, but that's likely a compromise for his vision of what he needs them to do, since he knows they'd rebel harder if he did micromanage their lives.
I'm pressing [X] to doubt whenever anyone says the Emperor held any form of love for his children, they where simply his Magnum Opus when it came to tools of warfare, but at the end of the day they were still tools to him, just as like he was able to set aside his Thunder Warriors there's no doubt to me that he would eventually do the same to the Astartes and then their Genefathers would soon follow.
Warhammer 40k in 5 words or less: The Orginal Clone Wars
Warhammer 40k in two words: "Daddy issues"
One thing that I use to help justify the Angron story is that he did intervene and helped Mortarion defeat his enemy and he was ungrateful. So if he would have stepped in and saved Angron and defeated his enemy I feel like he would have looked at it as a victory that was robbed from him. With Angron I feel like it was damned-if-you-do damned-if-you-don't. One thing that I think would have really helped the Angron character is if his Primarch book would have been good. That was the golden opportunity to really develop his story and instead we got a really terrible portrayal of the butchers nails and don't even get me started about the enemies on Gehenna. The book should have focused on Angron as a character and developing relationships with the other gladiators and planning the escape and the final battle and the interaction with the emperor. They could have gave Angron some dialogue stating that he did not want the emperor to intervene in the fight and would have not appreciated it if he saved him and his men and he would have seen it as a victory or honorable death stolen. So then the emperor would have no choice but to teleport him aboard the ship against his will.