I don’t think that it’s a lack of respect for Serenity and the crew, but mental and emotional exhaustion that expressed itself in Simon’s outburst in the shop.
Also, Simon is used to a high class lifestyle. Serenity is an old beat up ship, and if it didn't have a genius like Kaylee maintaining it, it probably wouldn't fly. From Simon's point of view, it's like somebody used to driving expensive cars being forced to ride in a rusty old car that barely keeps running. Of course he's not happy about that.
People without a military background mostly do not get Mal. He wasnt rude to Simon when he wanted him to calm down (gag her) River, or take her to the village. He knew that a horde of cattle can destroy a lot if they get scared, and that the transaction has to go smoothly. So he prioritized the "greater good". Same with the Book injury vs Simon/River obduction. He knew that Book could die every minute, while Simon/River were at least save to a degree. So he flew off to save Book, while allways planning to come back and save the two after the bigger crisis was dealt with. Thats how leaders lead. Thats how you prioritize. Keep feelings out of it, or bad things can happen.
Mal's flaw, and it shows at least three times over the episodes, is that he doesn't explain his plan to his subordinates when he has ample time to do so. In the military we were taught the fable of "Napoleon's Corporal." There are two different versions (that I've heard), but the basic moral is: Tell your subordinates as much of the plan as you can within the requirements of operational security. That way, when the plan goes awry (as it always will) upon contact with the enemy, they still know which direction thing are _supposed_ to go.
Underrated line for me: Zoe's "We don't make him hurry for the little stuff." Simultaneously cool as ice and touchingly kind. ...I honestly rank this episode towards the bottom, but it does have some great moments. And it's still better than almost any episode of every other show.
Simon's dad was more concerned about how he had to go through identity scanners at the police station than what actually happened to Simon. That gives me the impression that Simon's parents were more concerned in keeping their heads in the sand and be willfully ignorant of what was happening to River, most likely because the Alliance is an oppressive government and people who rock the boat get thrown overboard. In the opener, Mal was stern (justifiably, you dont want to spook cows in a spaceship) while Simon's dad was warm, effusive and outwardly generous. But in the end, it was Mal who came back for Simon and River.
My theory is that after Simon was found to be "Gifted" as a small child, the Alliance approached the Tam parents to "create" River. The parents always knew she would be taken away so they never allowed themselves to become attached.
Some parents really are that bad. Mine admitted they never wanted us; we were just necessary for social conformity. I got into an early college program at 14 and they pressured me *hard* to go because they’d be rid of me while making them look even better.
This. You can even see it in the beginning of the episode, where Simon's dad is already pressuring his son to become a doctor. By the way he says it, you can tell he's motivated almost entirely by the prestige of the job, not the money, and especially not what would actually make Simon happy. We can imagine how people like that so easily bought into the narrative that River was chosen for some elite school program, and also why they would be reluctant to believe otherwise, or put her enrollment at risk. They don't give a damn about their kids.
I think it is more than that. IMO, they drank the Alliance Kool-Aid. They behave exactly like middle-class neoliberals have over the last 40-ish years. It is utterly incomprehensible to them that the powers-that-be don't have their best interests at heart.
@@takewithfood I mostly agree, but I suspect it's even worse than that. With Simon, his father does go down to help him out, even though walking through the door will go on his profile. He's not happy about it, and he says he won't do it again, but he at least does it once. With River, the parents' refusal to even consider the possibility that anything might be wrong suggests to me that they *_already know_* what's happening, and have no intention of trying to help. That, in turn, makes me suspect they knew (or at least guessed at) the nature of the "elite school program" before she ever went, and that they never expected to see her again after that point...
I highly doubt River's parents sold her to the Alliance. They were already very rich, and Simon said that River was the one who picked the Academy. Rather, I think they just had enough faith in their government that what Simon was suggesting was simply inconceivable to them. Keep in mind that they were very sheltered and privileged, and that the existing social structure had treated them extremely well. There are people like that in the real world who refuse to acknowledge the existence (beyond negligibly rare anecdotes) of things like police misconduct, or institutional racism/sexism, or cynical foreign policy decisions by their own government, to name just a few. (This attitude may be especially common in the US, given the somewhat unusual flavor of patriotism you often find here.) The status quo is amazing for some people, thank you very much, and so they have less incentive to question things or rock the boat in any way. To such people, Simon would have sounded like a raving conspiracy theorist. Heck, I doubt you think the UK is anywhere near perfect, but if someone told you that Parliament had authorized abducting gifted British children and playing with their brains, would you take them seriously? To be clear, I'm not giving the elder Tams a complete pass. They should have at least heard Simon out properly, tried to arrange a visit to River, etc., but I think part of them simply refused to believe that it could be possible, and didn't want to attract unwanted attention by looking too hard.
Mom & Pop Tam are high social status in the Alliance, enhanced even more by the value of River at The Academy. Are they complicit, or justvignoring the truth? Opinions differ. But it wouldn't be the last time that parents sacrificed their children to keep their status.
I think the parents don't care as long as nothing upsets their status quo. Unfortunately, there are a lot of upper class parents who see their children as an extension of their lifestyle, useful as long as they do them proud but expendable if they rebel in any way. The idea that the Alliance would do something wrong or bad to a child didn't fit into the way they viewed the world, so Simon was wrong and rebellious as far as they were concerned and they would rather cut him off than see the truth.
To them, Simon sounds like a 9/11 Truther or a QAnon follower. They care about River, but they don’t believe the wild conspiracy theory that Simon is spouting. They feel it will just ruin his career for no real reason.
Regarding Zoe’s “plus, point of interest: it (sanguine) also means bloody” line, a bit of etymological trivia: that’s why (among other things) “exsanguinate” means “to remove all the blood from”. :)
I hadn't made this connection before, but when you were wondering if the parents were aware of River's situation, it made me recall Simon's reaction to Mal in the pilot when he also showed reluctance to help. Simon's initial reaction was to accuse Mal of bending over for the Alliance in exchange for "a pat on the head" and that he might as well be working for them. One could see that in a few ways: this is how he feels about his parents' lack of support (yep, and placing Mal in the role of his dad, which is definitely what this episode did with the parallel narratives) but it might also be foreshadowing what you said - that they were a lot more complicit and literally working for The Alliance. Will we see those words pay off...?
I've got a handmade pewter hat pin, that I bought at a local Ren Faire. It says "BIG DAMN HERO". I wear it on my hat, when I wear my traditional Scottish attire.
The reason the Tam parents reacted the way they do is because their identity is wrapped up in the Alliance. They are Alliance nobility and if the Alliance was bad, that would mean they're bad, and they're not bad, which means the Alliance isn't bad. Simon's identity was also mostly wrapped up in the Alliance, he was one of the Alliance's elite surgeons, but his identity as River's brother was important enough to him that he was willing to destroy the rest to save her.
My read is that Simon and River's parents are nice little Alliance citizens. They've bought into the whole concept of it as a just and orderly force for good, and if they ever questioned it, their tidy little lives would crumble around them, destroying their whole world. It's too horrible to contemplate, so it's easier to stay inside their little bubbles. Stop rocking the boat, Simon.
I always assumed that the parents were in denail, much the same way Fudge was in denial about Voldemort returning. When peeps are comfortable in their worlds, it can be difficult and very scary to admit certain realities that dont match their 'truth'.
Notice that after Jayne stole (and returned) Simon's stuff, River stole the bread out of his plate at dinner... ETA: notice also that when the dad got Simon out of jail, he said that "walking through that door goes in [his] permanent record". The Alliance is a very controlling system of government, it would be quite scary to step out of line.
@@AlexSwanson-rw7cv But the point is that the only way the guy would know she's reading minds is if what she said was true. If it was false, she could say anything and wouldn't have to read minds for it.
Re. companions, I don't think 'geisha' really gets it. My suspicion is that the guild has power and influence, likely because they know a lot of secrets. They are integral to the government machine, so their power brings with it status and privilege. I could easily be wrong, but they seem more like aristocracy than gentry. I also think this is why the Tam's don't want to rock the boat, they are gentry, not aristocracy. Money and a degree of status doesn't necessarily mean real power, and when Stalin wants your kid you either put up with it or wind up in a gulag. The alliance isn't nice. I suspect that different core planets have different degrees of repression, but it looks to me like the one they on is very much iron fist in (blue) velvet glove. Again, I could be wrong, but Joss also grew up during the cold war when talk of totalitarianism was much more common.
I'm so jealous of your Zoe and Kaylee. I need to get some of those. Zoe's the most badass character in the show. Kaylee has the biggest heart. I'm loving your reactions. Enjoy!
The crew was in trouble when they were transporting the cattle because they were smuggling them. Presumably to avoid taxes or regulations on behalf of that Lord fellow with the sash from the fancy party.
People tend to miss the “father” Mal aspect of the episode. Simons dad gave the ultimatum that he would not be back for him if he chose to continue what he was doing. Cant imagine the scars a child has from this, feeling abandoned and having to do it alone. But, on the flip, Mal would come back for him no matter what just because he was part of his crew/family even if Simon felt Mal didn’t even like him. His feelings for Mal must have grown a lot having that perspective.
My interpretation of the dad at least was that he also realised something was wrong, but he had enough idea of the lengths the government are willing to go to to be scared out of doing anything. Simon on the other hand doesn't have that fear yet, so his dad does what he can to protect him by pretending he's overreacting and masking his worry with anger.
You do realise that most people in the core nation world generally don’t “question authority” and certainly don’t want to so they don’t lose their privileged positions, yes?
Did you see River steal Jayne's roll at the end? Your feeling about Jayne will change, then change again, then again. In my opinion his character is developed the most in the series. Simon has spent almost every waking hour of his life studying to be a doctor, so he never dated or developed any social skills when it comes to the opposite sex. He's well intentioned but clumsey when it comes to flirting with Kaylee. He's completely oblivious as to what makes women tick. As far as Simon & River's parents, they are totally devoted to the government and the society they live in. They desparately want to be accepted by their friends and people in authority. It's similar to the current world where many people put their total faith and trust in whatever the authorities tells them, whether that authority is the government, a religion, or what their friends tell them. What the authorities and their friends say and think is more important than their own children. They don't think for themseloves. That is very common in today's world.
There is a video on RUclips called The River Tam Sessions. It came out a few months before the movie Serenity hit the theaters, but it doesn't contain any spoilers for the movie. It also doesn't have any connection to any particular episode of Firefly, so really it just serves to provide a little background on what River experienced at The Academy.
Thanks for mentioning this. I just finished watching it and - wow! Poor River. I don't think Simon will ever know everything they did to her there because River knows it would make him feel so guilty, and she would never want him to feel that way. However, there is someone else on the crew who could probably listen if she ever felt the need to talk... and I think that person would probably be able to help her with the trauma some.
Yeah, no, that is incorrect. It spoils a LOT !!! Since I consider it a spoiler, I will not discuss it further, but I will tell you this. They didn't put out the RTS for Browncoats ... they put them out to get people interested in the movie. It's perfectly fine to go back and watch them AFTER the movie, but they should NOT be watched BEFORE !!! I have no issue with YOU wanting to watch them ... that is YOUR decision, but please stop telling newbies to do so. No one should know about River's abilities or her past until they've seen the movie ... period !!!
Don't overthink the Tam parents. They have two brilliant children who have a special bond. Simon has achieved his goals after a LOT of hard work and is in a high pressure job (trauma surgeon - can get exciting at times). River, younger, more playful, goes off to boarding school. Simon reports she's trying to communicate to him in a secret code. The parents: "Okay, River's playing a game with you, what's your point?" and "Are you seriously letting this affect your career?"
The Tam family parents: maybe just bad (and yet . . .), maybe good but greedy (daughter as commodity), or maybe trying to shield their children from the harsh realities of living in a very oppressive Alliance controlled society on a rich inner planet -- on the one hand terrified of a government that makes it impossible to help their daughter, and on the other hand grateful that they've managed to achieve significant status and perhaps wealth, and have a good chance of ensuring that at least one of their two children can also have such a life. So Simon's parents are certainly not heroes, and by the standards of the Firefly "family" not special or admirable, but perhaps behind the scenes tried what they could to change things, found out just how powerless they were, then ended up by trying to "put a brave face on it" for their son. As it is one of Joss' stories, you can pretty much count on there being a bit of "darkness" afoot. But then the mother seems hopeful or convinced that Simon and River will be reunited at some point in the not-to-distant future. So maybe she, or they, think and feel that short term pain will lead to long term gain, hopefully for all of them. And that then the best thing to do is to prevent Simon from doing anything that might ruin his future prospects. (Such a Silly Young Man!) But do they primarily trust or fear the Alliance Government? (Or both? "They're hurting her.") Perhaps in a later episode or season that might've been revealed. Anyways, thank you for your thought-provoking commentary, and take care.
@@AlexSwanson-rw7cv It doesn't have to be about River being a girl. It could simply be that the Tam Parents have one favorite child that they put all their energy into... But, I do believe River being "just" a girl has a little bit to do with their favoring Simon while ignoring River.
Simon comes across as an entitled brat sometimes, but it's still the effects of the way he was raised by his parents and taught by the Alliance popping up, despite the fact he knows that whole ideology is wrong because of what happened to River. Subconsciously, he knows that home is where the people you love are... but he hasn't realized yet that home can be a spaceship. Give him time.
Jayne sent to find the doctor? Jayne balancing his dislike for the siblings against his sense of doing a good job for the crew. Well. That would be an interesting day.
@@santanamauricio it was Mal - in the Serenity family, he's the father figure. Serenity is home. Book is the honorary grandfather (despite never marrying).
I have watched this series at least a dozen times. It never occurred to me the parents might have been aware of what the Alliance was doing to River. I just assumed it was a patriarchy thing.
It amuses me because the only place I've seen Zac Efron, as far as I know, is in this episode, and I only know who he is because every reactor says 'Wait, isn't that Zac Efron?'!
I always thought Joss Whedon was showing the "typical" inner planet Alliance citizen in River & Simon's parents. Privileged, wealthy & rule following, don't question or step out of line. Blindly trusting that the Alliance always has the best intention for all it's citizens. Totally in denial that anything could be wrong. Often it's the smartest people that lack common sense.
While I can understand the comparison between geisha and companions, there's an important difference: geisha are not sex workers. Also, companions have a religious streak. Thanks for the reaction!
Simon and River's parents are extremely wealthy, extremely privileged people that can't, and probably don't want, to see that there is anything wrong with their society. So the idea that their government might be hurting people, or more specifically might be hurting "the wrong people" like themselves, is just an idea that seems nonsensical to them. Thankfully nothing like that ever happens in real life.
This episode contrasts two families. One is the privileged Tam family living in the Alliance. They are so afraid of getting a black mark on their record with the totalitarian Alliance government that they can't even admit that their daughter has been abducted and held in some Alliance facility, and abandon Simon when he tries to rescue her. The other is the frontier "family" of the Serenity's crew. Mal risks losing his ship by taking the Shepherd for medical care to the Alliance cruiser, even though he is just a passenger, then he comes back and rescues Simon and River, even though as wanted fugitives they are a threat to him. The underlying theme of _Firefly_ is: frontier values are better than civilized values. Or maybe: family is where you find it.
When the show and movie have been watched maybe you'll get the chance to read the comics which give some missing information. There is also a tabletop RPG which gives some additional information. I really think the parents acted the way they did because the government is totalitarian and they fear rocking the boat could result in them being put in prison or executed. I could see agents speaking to the parents telling them they would be in good with the government if they just ignored what was happening to River or else bad things might happen.
Here are my thoughts about River's parents. We haven't had much information about the politics of the Alliance. But it seems like it is some kind of dictatorship - a One Party imperial regime. Dictatorships tend to become ruthless and brutal and Simon's parents seem to be quite high up in the Alliance Society. It may be that their wealth is dependent on their loyalty to the Alliance. They may even be scared to inquire what the deal with River is. It may be that they were rewarded special privileges for Simon in his career in exchange for sending River to the special secret academy where the Alliance does "important government security work". The parents do seem to be quite scared that Simon will lose his position at the hospital if they ask too many questions about River.
Not necessarily a one-party dictatorship, but one with an out-of-control bureaucracy -- the politicians are happy to let them keep doing what they do (in other words, are afraid to cross them) and in exchange, they get to keep getting reelected to office and make money on book deals, insider trading, and influence peddling. I realize it may be hard to imagine something like that, but remember, this is science fiction set in the future.
I disagree with the comment that Mal came from the lower class. During "Shindig," he knew how to dance, and he knew how to behave, even if he chose a different way to behave ultimately.
It's my headcannon that Simon and River's family gave up River to the Alliance (either by force, status, or money), and that's why they disregard Simon's behavior.
No, they merely trust the government and consider any suggestion that the Alliance has some nefarious groups that would hurt children to be wild conspiracy theories.
@@kirkdarling4120 Mal and Zoe were born on planets that were not part of the alliance. This is why they rebelled. They are not citizens of the alliance. This is why they prefer to do business with planets outside of the alliance. Even though they will do business with planets in the alliance.
For my money, this is actually the least good episode of Firefly. Not "bad," because there are no bad episodes. Just the least good. After this one, it's basically just banger after banger after banger.
We really don't get much on the parents. Personal head canon says that the alliance is their life. Anything the alliance does is good in their eyes - so this academy is above reproach, and they ignore any evidence to the contrary. Simon is following a 'bad path' going against the alliance and breaking laws. Not a good parenting moment.
the thing abou thte parents- this is a completely fascist society- they Tams are well-off likely the equivalent of party members. It is mentally impossible for them to see the school as bad, and even more than that- the reputation they have is precarious and Simon's actions of not following the blueprint for being a citizen are dangerous to the family.
To put a bandaid over a sucking chest wound, buy a brown coat. I don't know the laws there, but in the US wear it once during a reaction and it becomes a business expense and I'm sorry. We've all been there. It is better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all.
Given that the client they got them from wanted those cattle taken off-world discretely, I think the job was illegal. Probably smuggling them to avoid paying import/export taxes.
It always makes me laugh when reactors suddenly realize that "little Simon" is a very young Zac Effron. River and Simon's parents are posh, privileged, elitists who border on being fanatical Alliance followers. They wouldn't dare say or do anything against the Alliance. Well, unfortunately, I hate to spoil it for you, but Book's background will stay a mystery and was not flushed out because of the sudden cancellation of the show. UNLESS, you want to try and find the 2010 comic book titled, Serenity: A Shepherd's Tale.
Whedon is very much a Shakespearean writer. But, in his tunnel vision , he fails to see that a little guaranteed happiness keeps your audience. He’s great with words like the cohen brothers…but he’s terrible at people.
My least favorite episode. After what he went through, Simon might not remember offending Kaylee. His parents value status above all. The father insists Simon become a doctor. He's just a kid. The parents were told the school was very prestigious. They probably doubt the government would hurt their daughter, considering how respectable the family is. They side with the society over Simon. "She reads minds and spins falsehoods." How would he know shexead his mind if what she said was false? None of his people noticed.
The best place to hide a lie is inside of a truth. Just because the two were alone together doesn't mean anyone had reason to believe the death was suspicious. It's common for people who are dying to "rally" shortly before death. People in this community would've grown up witnessing such events since most people there die at home or surrounded by family & friends at the makeshift hospital. River said that the old Patron was getting better (as opposed to rallying) -- the supposed lie + the way she phrased it & the tone of her voice insinuated that the new Patron was a murderer. It's even possible that the old Patron really was rallying & he was killed for no reason other than the new Patron got panicky. After all, the only reason River said that the old Patron was getting better is because the new Patron thought he was getting better. That said, it wasn't the best course of action. He definitely panicked on this occasion. Based on how the Patron was smiling at Simon's rantings, he's not a true believer. He simply uses the superstitions & paranoia of the others to control them. Knowing that they're not the most rational people means that he can afford this relatively minor mistake. ❤🧡💛💚💙💜
@@plothole181 For me it's the whole "witch" thing at the end. It always seemed a little hamfisted to me. Especially when River reads the patron's mind and says the exact worst possible thing she could say in that scenario, even though she's supposed to be smart. I get what they were going for, and that the episode needed some kind of conflict to resolve at the end. I just feel like the writing in Firefly is usually a bit more elegant than that.
@@DudeLongcouch You do know that she has trouble controlling her talking and actions, right. It has nothing to do with being intelligent and this and moments like it are true to her character.
@@plothole181 I know that she has trouble processing reality and regulating her emotions, but she also has periods of lucidity. In that moment, she seemed perfectly lucid and able to understand what was happening around her. It's not like she's a raving lunatic all the time. We've already had the moment in the previous episode where she played off Badger by reading the room and then mocking him with a perfectly emulated accent. So the whole thing with the patron just seems... odd to me. Also, another reason I think it's the weakest episode is that I just really hate the Doralee character. She annoys the shit out of me lol.
Simon's mother and father failed him as family.
Mal and the crew did not fail him as family.
As Book said "It's good to be home".
"Are you trying to destroy this family??"
"I didn't think it would be so easy."
I don’t think that it’s a lack of respect for Serenity and the crew, but mental and emotional exhaustion that expressed itself in Simon’s outburst in the shop.
Also, Simon is used to a high class lifestyle. Serenity is an old beat up ship, and if it didn't have a genius like Kaylee maintaining it, it probably wouldn't fly. From Simon's point of view, it's like somebody used to driving expensive cars being forced to ride in a rusty old car that barely keeps running. Of course he's not happy about that.
@@daerdevvyl4314yes, this… it’s easy to find some things tacky when you grow up with money. Simon never got the “ hold your tongue” lesson apparently.
People without a military background mostly do not get Mal. He wasnt rude to Simon when he wanted him to calm down (gag her) River, or take her to the village. He knew that a horde of cattle can destroy a lot if they get scared, and that the transaction has to go smoothly. So he prioritized the "greater good". Same with the Book injury vs Simon/River obduction. He knew that Book could die every minute, while Simon/River were at least save to a degree. So he flew off to save Book, while allways planning to come back and save the two after the bigger crisis was dealt with.
Thats how leaders lead. Thats how you prioritize. Keep feelings out of it, or bad things can happen.
military Farmer?! 😛
Mal's flaw, and it shows at least three times over the episodes, is that he doesn't explain his plan to his subordinates when he has ample time to do so. In the military we were taught the fable of "Napoleon's Corporal." There are two different versions (that I've heard), but the basic moral is: Tell your subordinates as much of the plan as you can within the requirements of operational security. That way, when the plan goes awry (as it always will) upon contact with the enemy, they still know which direction thing are _supposed_ to go.
@@kirkdarling4120 And you're a Vet' from where?
Royal Life Guards (Denmark) 1998-2007 and three Tours here! Sgt just like Mal 😛
Underrated line for me: Zoe's "We don't make him hurry for the little stuff." Simultaneously cool as ice and touchingly kind. ...I honestly rank this episode towards the bottom, but it does have some great moments. And it's still better than almost any episode of every other show.
Simon's dad was more concerned about how he had to go through identity scanners at the police station than what actually happened to Simon. That gives me the impression that Simon's parents were more concerned in keeping their heads in the sand and be willfully ignorant of what was happening to River, most likely because the Alliance is an oppressive government and people who rock the boat get thrown overboard.
In the opener, Mal was stern (justifiably, you dont want to spook cows in a spaceship) while Simon's dad was warm, effusive and outwardly generous. But in the end, it was Mal who came back for Simon and River.
My theory is that after Simon was found to be "Gifted" as a small child, the Alliance approached the Tam parents to "create" River.
The parents always knew she would be taken away so they never allowed themselves to become attached.
They might have gone that way but it's maybe a bit close to Ender's Game.
Some parents really are that bad. Mine admitted they never wanted us; we were just necessary for social conformity. I got into an early college program at 14 and they pressured me *hard* to go because they’d be rid of me while making them look even better.
The parents are obsessed with status. Anything that might cast a bad light on them they simply ignore.
This. You can even see it in the beginning of the episode, where Simon's dad is already pressuring his son to become a doctor. By the way he says it, you can tell he's motivated almost entirely by the prestige of the job, not the money, and especially not what would actually make Simon happy. We can imagine how people like that so easily bought into the narrative that River was chosen for some elite school program, and also why they would be reluctant to believe otherwise, or put her enrollment at risk. They don't give a damn about their kids.
I think it is more than that.
IMO, they drank the Alliance Kool-Aid.
They behave exactly like middle-class neoliberals have over the last 40-ish years. It is utterly incomprehensible to them that the powers-that-be don't have their best interests at heart.
@@takewithfood I mostly agree, but I suspect it's even worse than that. With Simon, his father does go down to help him out, even though walking through the door will go on his profile. He's not happy about it, and he says he won't do it again, but he at least does it once. With River, the parents' refusal to even consider the possibility that anything might be wrong suggests to me that they *_already know_* what's happening, and have no intention of trying to help. That, in turn, makes me suspect they knew (or at least guessed at) the nature of the "elite school program" before she ever went, and that they never expected to see her again after that point...
Shepherd Book showed some fighting skills in the 1st episode, and is also a voice of reason and wise counsel, definitely an interesting character. 😊
I highly doubt River's parents sold her to the Alliance. They were already very rich, and Simon said that River was the one who picked the Academy. Rather, I think they just had enough faith in their government that what Simon was suggesting was simply inconceivable to them. Keep in mind that they were very sheltered and privileged, and that the existing social structure had treated them extremely well. There are people like that in the real world who refuse to acknowledge the existence (beyond negligibly rare anecdotes) of things like police misconduct, or institutional racism/sexism, or cynical foreign policy decisions by their own government, to name just a few. (This attitude may be especially common in the US, given the somewhat unusual flavor of patriotism you often find here.) The status quo is amazing for some people, thank you very much, and so they have less incentive to question things or rock the boat in any way. To such people, Simon would have sounded like a raving conspiracy theorist. Heck, I doubt you think the UK is anywhere near perfect, but if someone told you that Parliament had authorized abducting gifted British children and playing with their brains, would you take them seriously?
To be clear, I'm not giving the elder Tams a complete pass. They should have at least heard Simon out properly, tried to arrange a visit to River, etc., but I think part of them simply refused to believe that it could be possible, and didn't want to attract unwanted attention by looking too hard.
"Think I might be needing a Shepherd..."
"That's great, you just lie there and be ironical."
Mom & Pop Tam are high social status in the Alliance, enhanced even more by the value of River at The Academy. Are they complicit, or justvignoring the truth? Opinions differ. But it wouldn't be the last time that parents sacrificed their children to keep their status.
And let's not forget that the Alliance is an authoritarian regime. The last thing you want to do in such an environment is make waves.
I think the parents don't care as long as nothing upsets their status quo. Unfortunately, there are a lot of upper class parents who see their children as an extension of their lifestyle, useful as long as they do them proud but expendable if they rebel in any way. The idea that the Alliance would do something wrong or bad to a child didn't fit into the way they viewed the world, so Simon was wrong and rebellious as far as they were concerned and they would rather cut him off than see the truth.
@@Kayjee17not just upper class but a lot of parents see thier children as property they own.
To them, Simon sounds like a 9/11 Truther or a QAnon follower. They care about River, but they don’t believe the wild conspiracy theory that Simon is spouting. They feel it will just ruin his career for no real reason.
Having a blast going back through these episodes with you. :)
Regarding Zoe’s “plus, point of interest: it (sanguine) also means bloody” line, a bit of etymological trivia: that’s why (among other things) “exsanguinate” means “to remove all the blood from”. :)
I hadn't made this connection before, but when you were wondering if the parents were aware of River's situation, it made me recall Simon's reaction to Mal in the pilot when he also showed reluctance to help. Simon's initial reaction was to accuse Mal of bending over for the Alliance in exchange for "a pat on the head" and that he might as well be working for them. One could see that in a few ways: this is how he feels about his parents' lack of support (yep, and placing Mal in the role of his dad, which is definitely what this episode did with the parallel narratives) but it might also be foreshadowing what you said - that they were a lot more complicit and literally working for The Alliance. Will we see those words pay off...?
I've got a handmade pewter hat pin, that I bought at a local Ren Faire. It says "BIG DAMN HERO". I wear it on my hat, when I wear my traditional Scottish attire.
The reason the Tam parents reacted the way they do is because their identity is wrapped up in the Alliance. They are Alliance nobility and if the Alliance was bad, that would mean they're bad, and they're not bad, which means the Alliance isn't bad. Simon's identity was also mostly wrapped up in the Alliance, he was one of the Alliance's elite surgeons, but his identity as River's brother was important enough to him that he was willing to destroy the rest to save her.
And to think there was a simpler test to know if River was a witch - see if she weighed the same as a duck.
My read is that Simon and River's parents are nice little Alliance citizens. They've bought into the whole concept of it as a just and orderly force for good, and if they ever questioned it, their tidy little lives would crumble around them, destroying their whole world. It's too horrible to contemplate, so it's easier to stay inside their little bubbles. Stop rocking the boat, Simon.
I always assumed that the parents were in denail, much the same way Fudge was in denial about Voldemort returning.
When peeps are comfortable in their worlds, it can be difficult and very scary to admit certain realities that dont match their 'truth'.
Notice that after Jayne stole (and returned) Simon's stuff, River stole the bread out of his plate at dinner...
ETA: notice also that when the dad got Simon out of jail, he said that "walking through that door goes in [his] permanent record". The Alliance is a very controlling system of government, it would be quite scary to step out of line.
Everyone's still sad that this show was canceled.
Our grief has no end
"This woman reads minds and spins falsehoods."
Yeah, cause _that_ makes sense.
It could be both, if you had telepathy but were evil and wanted to manipulate people.
@@AlexSwanson-rw7cv But the point is that the only way the guy would know she's reading minds is if what she said was true. If it was false, she could say anything and wouldn't have to read minds for it.
@@IceMetalPunk People are far more likely to believe you if you can first demonstrate true mind reading, though.
Re. companions, I don't think 'geisha' really gets it. My suspicion is that the guild has power and influence, likely because they know a lot of secrets. They are integral to the government machine, so their power brings with it status and privilege. I could easily be wrong, but they seem more like aristocracy than gentry.
I also think this is why the Tam's don't want to rock the boat, they are gentry, not aristocracy. Money and a degree of status doesn't necessarily mean real power, and when Stalin wants your kid you either put up with it or wind up in a gulag. The alliance isn't nice. I suspect that different core planets have different degrees of repression, but it looks to me like the one they on is very much iron fist in (blue) velvet glove. Again, I could be wrong, but Joss also grew up during the cold war when talk of totalitarianism was much more common.
I'm so jealous of your Zoe and Kaylee. I need to get some of those. Zoe's the most badass character in the show. Kaylee has the biggest heart. I'm loving your reactions. Enjoy!
The crew was in trouble when they were transporting the cattle because they were smuggling them. Presumably to avoid taxes or regulations on behalf of that Lord fellow with the sash from the fancy party.
A happy surprise Dakara 🤘 Was going to watch this on my flight tomorrow but this works 🎉
People tend to miss the “father” Mal aspect of the episode. Simons dad gave the ultimatum that he would not be back for him if he chose to continue what he was doing. Cant imagine the scars a child has from this, feeling abandoned and having to do it alone. But, on the flip, Mal would come back for him no matter what just because he was part of his crew/family even if Simon felt Mal didn’t even like him. His feelings for Mal must have grown a lot having that perspective.
Comment ✅ like ✅ great stuff dak 🔥💙
"Safe": The cattle are offloaded at Jiangyin. Jayne "likes smackin' 'em." The rest of the crew goes window shopping.
Window shopping? How about "Simon is offered a position where his medical skills are appreciated."
My interpretation of the dad at least was that he also realised something was wrong, but he had enough idea of the lengths the government are willing to go to to be scared out of doing anything. Simon on the other hand doesn't have that fear yet, so his dad does what he can to protect him by pretending he's overreacting and masking his worry with anger.
You do realise that most people in the core nation world generally don’t “question authority” and certainly don’t want to so they don’t lose their privileged positions, yes?
In _Firefly_ civilized folks in general have very bad morals compared to frontier folks
Wash's action figure comes with toy Dinosaurs
Did you see River steal Jayne's roll at the end? Your feeling about Jayne will change, then change again, then again. In my opinion his character is developed the most in the series. Simon has spent almost every waking hour of his life studying to be a doctor, so he never dated or developed any social skills when it comes to the opposite sex. He's well intentioned but clumsey when it comes to flirting with Kaylee. He's completely oblivious as to what makes women tick. As far as Simon & River's parents, they are totally devoted to the government and the society they live in. They desparately want to be accepted by their friends and people in authority. It's similar to the current world where many people put their total faith and trust in whatever the authorities tells them, whether that authority is the government, a religion, or what their friends tell them. What the authorities and their friends say and think is more important than their own children. They don't think for themseloves. That is very common in today's world.
We learn everything about Simon's parents relation with the Alliance in the second season!
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...this is cruel.
And a couple of major hints about Shepherd's mysterious past and that Identity Card - though obviously not the full story. Too soon for that.
There is a video on RUclips called The River Tam Sessions. It came out a few months before the movie Serenity hit the theaters, but it doesn't contain any spoilers for the movie. It also doesn't have any connection to any particular episode of Firefly, so really it just serves to provide a little background on what River experienced at The Academy.
Thanks for mentioning this. I just finished watching it and - wow! Poor River. I don't think Simon will ever know everything they did to her there because River knows it would make him feel so guilty, and she would never want him to feel that way. However, there is someone else on the crew who could probably listen if she ever felt the need to talk... and I think that person would probably be able to help her with the trauma some.
There are two orders - one should see the original order first
Yeah, no, that is incorrect. It spoils a LOT !!! Since I consider it a spoiler, I will not discuss it further, but I will tell you this. They didn't put out the RTS for Browncoats ... they put them out to get people interested in the movie. It's perfectly fine to go back and watch them AFTER the movie, but they should NOT be watched BEFORE !!! I have no issue with YOU wanting to watch them ... that is YOUR decision, but please stop telling newbies to do so. No one should know about River's abilities or her past until they've seen the movie ... period !!!
Don't overthink the Tam parents. They have two brilliant children who have a special bond. Simon has achieved his goals after a LOT of hard work and is in a high pressure job (trauma surgeon - can get exciting at times). River, younger, more playful, goes off to boarding school. Simon reports she's trying to communicate to him in a secret code. The parents: "Okay, River's playing a game with you, what's your point?" and "Are you seriously letting this affect your career?"
firefly, wednesday and lucifer on the portfolio ?
instant following....
The Tam family parents: maybe just bad (and yet . . .), maybe good but greedy (daughter as commodity), or maybe trying to shield their children from the harsh realities of living in a very oppressive Alliance controlled society on a rich inner planet -- on the one hand terrified of a government that makes it impossible to help their daughter, and on the other hand grateful that they've managed to achieve significant status and perhaps wealth, and have a good chance of ensuring that at least one of their two children can also have such a life. So Simon's parents are certainly not heroes, and by the standards of the Firefly "family" not special or admirable, but perhaps behind the scenes tried what they could to change things, found out just how powerless they were, then ended up by trying to "put a brave face on it" for their son.
As it is one of Joss' stories, you can pretty much count on there being a bit of "darkness" afoot.
But then the mother seems hopeful or convinced that Simon and River will be reunited at some point in the not-to-distant future. So maybe she, or they, think and feel that short term pain will lead to long term gain, hopefully for all of them. And that then the best thing to do is to prevent Simon from doing anything that might ruin his future prospects. (Such a Silly Young Man!)
But do they primarily trust or fear the Alliance Government? (Or both? "They're hurting her.") Perhaps in a later episode or season that might've been revealed. Anyways, thank you for your thought-provoking commentary, and take care.
It might be the old "only sons are valuable" mindset. Both chinese and western societies have remnants of this.
We do see high-status women, though. Plus it was evidently expected that River would get high-level education given her faculties.
@@AlexSwanson-rw7cv It doesn't have to be about River being a girl. It could simply be that the Tam Parents have one favorite child that they put all their energy into... But, I do believe River being "just" a girl has a little bit to do with their favoring Simon while ignoring River.
Simon comes across as an entitled brat sometimes, but it's still the effects of the way he was raised by his parents and taught by the Alliance popping up, despite the fact he knows that whole ideology is wrong because of what happened to River. Subconsciously, he knows that home is where the people you love are... but he hasn't realized yet that home can be a spaceship. Give him time.
Jayne sent to find the doctor? Jayne balancing his dislike for the siblings against his sense of doing a good job for the crew. Well. That would be an interesting day.
When River says "daddy will come and take us home" she wasn't talking about her father, it was serenity., well that's my take
@@santanamauricio it was Mal - in the Serenity family, he's the father figure. Serenity is home. Book is the honorary grandfather (despite never marrying).
I have watched this series at least a dozen times. It never occurred to me the parents might have been aware of what the Alliance was doing to River. I just assumed it was a patriarchy thing.
2:40 Oh FFS EVERY BLOODY Time, ladies+ 😞
It amuses me because the only place I've seen Zac Efron, as far as I know, is in this episode, and I only know who he is because every reactor says 'Wait, isn't that Zac Efron?'!
I always thought Joss Whedon was showing the "typical" inner planet Alliance citizen in River & Simon's parents. Privileged, wealthy & rule following, don't question or step out of line. Blindly trusting that the Alliance always has the best intention for all it's citizens. Totally in denial that anything could be wrong. Often it's the smartest people that lack common sense.
Same. Reminds me of the quote: "It is very difficult to get people to see the truth, if their lucrative income depends on their not seeing it."
There's a 2nd version of Kaylee POP, with dirty face and overalls
While I can understand the comparison between geisha and companions, there's an important difference: geisha are not sex workers. Also, companions have a religious streak. Thanks for the reaction!
Wheedon show? Have you seen Buffy? Season 2 in a cold open pre-bar fight, Mal speaks with a pleasant guy named Spike. This is the Buffyverse.
@@williamberry9013 Spike in the bar. "Nothing changes. Trust me, nothing changes."
Simon and River's parents are extremely wealthy, extremely privileged people that can't, and probably don't want, to see that there is anything wrong with their society. So the idea that their government might be hurting people, or more specifically might be hurting "the wrong people" like themselves, is just an idea that seems nonsensical to them.
Thankfully nothing like that ever happens in real life.
Have you noticed that some episodes are produced by Ben Edlund? As in Carver Edlund? As in Supernatural?
Ben would later work on the last season of Angel between Firefly and Supernatural.
This episode contrasts two families. One is the privileged Tam family living in the Alliance. They are so afraid of getting a black mark on their record with the totalitarian Alliance government that they can't even admit that their daughter has been abducted and held in some Alliance facility, and abandon Simon when he tries to rescue her. The other is the frontier "family" of the Serenity's crew. Mal risks losing his ship by taking the Shepherd for medical care to the Alliance cruiser, even though he is just a passenger, then he comes back and rescues Simon and River, even though as wanted fugitives they are a threat to him. The underlying theme of _Firefly_ is: frontier values are better than civilized values. Or maybe: family is where you find it.
When the show and movie have been watched maybe you'll get the chance to read the comics which give some missing information. There is also a tabletop RPG which gives some additional information.
I really think the parents acted the way they did because the government is totalitarian and they fear rocking the boat could result in them being put in prison or executed.
I could see agents speaking to the parents telling them they would be in good with the government if they just ignored what was happening to River or else bad things might happen.
Here are my thoughts about River's parents. We haven't had much information about the politics of the Alliance. But it seems like it is some kind of dictatorship - a One Party imperial regime. Dictatorships tend to become ruthless and brutal and Simon's parents seem to be quite high up in the Alliance Society. It may be that their wealth is dependent on their loyalty to the Alliance. They may even be scared to inquire what the deal with River is. It may be that they were rewarded special privileges for Simon in his career in exchange for sending River to the special secret academy where the Alliance does "important government security work". The parents do seem to be quite scared that Simon will lose his position at the hospital if they ask too many questions about River.
Not necessarily a one-party dictatorship, but one with an out-of-control bureaucracy -- the politicians are happy to let them keep doing what they do (in other words, are afraid to cross them) and in exchange, they get to keep getting reelected to office and make money on book deals, insider trading, and influence peddling.
I realize it may be hard to imagine something like that, but remember, this is science fiction set in the future.
I disagree with the comment that Mal came from the lower class. During "Shindig," he knew how to dance, and he knew how to behave, even if he chose a different way to behave ultimately.
Slight spoiler, Shepherd says in an episode, "I wasn't always a Shepherd". What were you?
It's my headcannon that Simon and River's family gave up River to the Alliance (either by force, status, or money), and that's why they disregard Simon's behavior.
Hear hear for personal interpretation!
No, they merely trust the government and consider any suggestion that the Alliance has some nefarious groups that would hurt children to be wild conspiracy theories.
Mal and Zoe are the only two on Firefly that are not citizens of the Alliance.
Everyone is a citizen of the Alliance whether they want to be or not. Mal and Zoe lost the fight to have a choice.
@@kirkdarling4120 Mal and Zoe were born on planets that were not part of the alliance. This is why they rebelled. They are not citizens of the alliance. This is why they prefer to do business with planets outside of the alliance. Even though they will do business with planets in the alliance.
Eric is wrong in his assessment of Mal. he makes it patently obvious in Shindig where his stance is during the dance with Inara.
Midnight upload... Why not!
For my money, this is actually the least good episode of Firefly. Not "bad," because there are no bad episodes. Just the least good. After this one, it's basically just banger after banger after banger.
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dear god funkopop....
We really don't get much on the parents. Personal head canon says that the alliance is their life. Anything the alliance does is good in their eyes - so this academy is above reproach, and they ignore any evidence to the contrary. Simon is following a 'bad path' going against the alliance and breaking laws.
Not a good parenting moment.
I'm glad you liked this ep... Because frankly, IMO, it's about the weakest in the series. Believe me, they just get successively better from here on.
the thing abou thte parents- this is a completely fascist society- they Tams are well-off likely the equivalent of party members. It is mentally impossible for them to see the school as bad, and even more than that- the reputation they have is precarious and Simon's actions of not following the blueprint for being a citizen are dangerous to the family.
i don't think the parents know, i think they can't think those thoughts
The parents weren't curious because they already knew and were ok with it. That is my suspicion anyways.
To put a bandaid over a sucking chest wound, buy a brown coat. I don't know the laws there, but in the US wear it once during a reaction and it becomes a business expense and I'm sorry. We've all been there. It is better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all.
Most of the jobs that Mal and his crew takes are illegal. The job with the cattle may be one of them, but I don't think so.
Given that the client they got them from wanted those cattle taken off-world discretely, I think the job was illegal. Probably smuggling them to avoid paying import/export taxes.
Yeah, the cattle were smuggled.
Please stop saying "Firefly season one" - it makes, at least this, long timer feel depressed. Just me?
I'm pretty sure the Tam parents knew more than they were letting on. They've always seemed kind of shady to me.
So, how long have you known the Tams?
It always makes me laugh when reactors suddenly realize that "little Simon" is a very young Zac Effron. River and Simon's parents are posh, privileged, elitists who border on being fanatical Alliance followers. They wouldn't dare say or do anything against the Alliance.
Well, unfortunately, I hate to spoil it for you, but Book's background will stay a mystery and was not flushed out because of the sudden cancellation of the show. UNLESS, you want to try and find the 2010 comic book titled, Serenity: A Shepherd's Tale.
Whedon is very much a Shakespearean writer. But, in his tunnel vision , he fails to see that a little guaranteed happiness keeps your audience. He’s great with words like the cohen brothers…but he’s terrible at people.
My least favorite episode.
After what he went through, Simon might not remember offending Kaylee.
His parents value status above all. The father insists Simon become a doctor. He's just a kid. The parents were told the school was very prestigious. They probably doubt the government would hurt their daughter, considering how respectable the family is. They side with the society over Simon.
"She reads minds and spins falsehoods." How would he know shexead his mind if what she said was false? None of his people noticed.
Why is it your least favorite? Not judging, just wondering.
The best place to hide a lie is inside of a truth. Just because the two were alone together doesn't mean anyone had reason to believe the death was suspicious. It's common for people who are dying to "rally" shortly before death. People in this community would've grown up witnessing such events since most people there die at home or surrounded by family & friends at the makeshift hospital. River said that the old Patron was getting better (as opposed to rallying) -- the supposed lie + the way she phrased it & the tone of her voice insinuated that the new Patron was a murderer. It's even possible that the old Patron really was rallying & he was killed for no reason other than the new Patron got panicky. After all, the only reason River said that the old Patron was getting better is because the new Patron thought he was getting better.
That said, it wasn't the best course of action. He definitely panicked on this occasion. Based on how the Patron was smiling at Simon's rantings, he's not a true believer. He simply uses the superstitions & paranoia of the others to control them. Knowing that they're not the most rational people means that he can afford this relatively minor mistake.
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@@plothole181 For me it's the whole "witch" thing at the end. It always seemed a little hamfisted to me. Especially when River reads the patron's mind and says the exact worst possible thing she could say in that scenario, even though she's supposed to be smart. I get what they were going for, and that the episode needed some kind of conflict to resolve at the end. I just feel like the writing in Firefly is usually a bit more elegant than that.
@@DudeLongcouch You do know that she has trouble controlling her talking and actions, right. It has nothing to do with being intelligent and this and moments like it are true to her character.
@@plothole181 I know that she has trouble processing reality and regulating her emotions, but she also has periods of lucidity. In that moment, she seemed perfectly lucid and able to understand what was happening around her. It's not like she's a raving lunatic all the time. We've already had the moment in the previous episode where she played off Badger by reading the room and then mocking him with a perfectly emulated accent. So the whole thing with the patron just seems... odd to me. Also, another reason I think it's the weakest episode is that I just really hate the Doralee character. She annoys the shit out of me lol.