A couple of small quick corrections. First, Olun isn't the cook, that was a mistake in my notes. Also, I didn’t make this clear enough in the video. Jim is non-binary and not a trans man nor technically trans masc. When I discuss trans masc within the video, I discuss the presentation and how many trans masc & nonbinary folks relate to Jim and the trans history behind Jim's character. I don't wish to take anything away from nonbinary representation or discussions of nonbinary people, especially as I myself am nonbinary (and trans fem too). So the fact that I did not make this clear the distinction in the video is on me. Jim the character and Vice, the person, are nonbinary, not trans men or trans masc, and want to be entirely clear with that.
I appreciate the distinction between being Nonbinary whilst having a certain agab, and being transmasc. Something that's always been frustrating for me is how the label of transmasc is just applied to people whether or not they personally identify with it. It's happened to me despite being a fem Nonbinary person lol. At times it feels like being placed in a binary,,within being Nonbinary. Like sure, I relate to Jim. I relate to a lot of experiences transmascs have. And yeah, Obviously some people are Nonbinary and transmasc, but not everyone is. And it's affirming to hear someone understand that.
@@leejohnstone4663 my only note to what you said here is, would you worry if they had cast a white man if it would be “for the right reasons”. Not attacking, just a poke at the thought process ❤️
I think that the casual queerness of the show may be because the creator was oblivious to queercoding, he didn't see what he was doing as big so it helped the relationship feel all the more authentic and natural
The show runner may have been oblivious, but the writers, costume designers, artistic directors, etc, were certainly not. And I'm convinced that Taika Waititi is working to make the world a little more accepting of queerness every day.
Reminds me of the opposite XD Something Key... Locke & Key. I loved the first season. The second season was.. the opposite. All the characters were suddenly stupid and backwards and we as the audience didn't get to discover anything along with them - it was total shit. And I think it was the first episode, the writers were like, oh, we should totally insert a gay black dude! So they did. At the dinner table the uncle had a friend who was learning Japanese so he could go to Japan for the rest of the series so the writers wouldn't have to give the _gay black dude_ a meaningful role and they "casually" forced the gay part in there by announcing the wedding for when he got back. Since the characters went from smart and charismatic in the first series to braindead I stopped watching and a friend who also saw the third season said she remembered the awkward forced dinner table scene and thought nothing of it because it wasn't relevant to the story and she doesn't remember seeing the uncle's partner again. I thought it was amazing; I never expected any writer to be so stupid as to blatantly and poorly force diversity in and send the only character who isn't cishet and white away forever just to not have to write an actual role or character for them. It was just, wow. The drop off from an intelligent, fun show, where you as the viewer would discover things along with the characters to the stupidest shit in the history of stupid shit was perfectly timed; exactly at the same time as all their other blatant stupidity and lack of care of what shit they were making. Just, more wow. If I were someone who worked on the first and on the second season I would have traveled to a different planet, changed my name, and get deadly drunk to forget any of it happened.
David Jenkins absolutely was not "oblivious to queercoding". This is a misunderstanding of his comments about how he underestimated the impact queerbaiting could have.
The Universal Public Friend lived in the 18th century. They were an American preacher who specifically used they/them pronouns. I find the Friend very cool, because they prove that non-binary people existed centuries before. So Jim is definitely historically accurate.
I randomly stumbled upon their story a few days ago while on an extended wiki-walk of obscure religious topics. Their story is one you find out about and immediately ask, "why haven't they made a movie about this?"
I read the Friend ordered people to avoid pronouns altogether and only modern people have started talking about them with they/them pronouns. Either way their story is crazy!
They also are broadly aligned with the views of The Religious Society of Friends, (Quakers) who were (and still are) very radical leftists in society. Quakers are completely devoted to complete equality and building an egalitarian society. As a radical leftist and also a pagan, I think that Friends are some of the only good Christians
Same! It's so good to see nonbinary people being taken seriously as real characters with stories to be told rather than just "exotic" decorations, or people reduced to their gender identity. Also, Jim kicks ass.
I'm just a cishet white male and I've always considered myself not super masculine even though I do look it, giving me a lot of privileges and advantages I wish everyone had, but something puzzles me. I have a lot of character traits that are traditionally considered feminine even though I never agreed with that. Things like wanting to care for people, being super empathic when people are in need of understanding and acknowledgement, and wanting to pamper nice people with good food and nice drinks, good atmosphere and things like that - I'm super sensitive. So are my two brothers, so it was always considered normal and my mom enjoyed teaching us how to cook and clean and buying me a doll for my birthday that I wanted so I could dress it in cute outfits my mom made, and care for it. And yet, I see Jim with a beard and big nose, my brain goes, man. Then I learn they're non binary and i'm like, okay, they're non binary. Then after learning that the nose and beard are gone and I'm like, _she's_ an attractive _woman._ How is my brain this dumb? Seriously. There was less than ten seconds between that! Sometimes I really think my IQ randomly switches from positive to negative. Ah well... some day I'll learn, I hope. I assume that if I knew the actor personally I wouldn't screw up this easily because then it's just one person with a job instead of an actor playing a character and being interviewed as a person. Maybe my brain just figured it was a completely different role because of the lack of nose and beard, who knows. Also, I haven't seen the show yet and this is the first time I heard about the actor and I already forgot their name even though I remember I thought it was a pretty name, simply because I know nothing about them except their job. Brains, eh.
Hi Jessie, As a historian of the 17th century, I can say that the portrayal of Jim is less inaccurate than most people would assume. As you note gender norms change over time and are different depending on culture, race, and even class.(minor quibble Our flag means death is 18th century). Just off the top of my head there are two 17th century figures who give some view to some of the very interesting lives of a couple of individuals we might think of as trans-people from the 17th century. Thomas(ine) Hall who was one of the Jamestown colonists was quite likely intersex in some manner. Hall transitioned between male and female identities throughout their life en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas(ine)_Hall. Generally in cases involving intersex individuals where it came before a court, the person was ordered to adopt one of the two gender roles, but Hall was told to wear a mixture of male and female clothing. Unfortunately nothing about their life after the court case is known; nor exactly how the unusual ruling was intended. It could've been meant just as an attempt at humiliation; it could've been meant as some kind of compromise between a desire to maintain order and Hall's nature; or somewhere in between. As much as Jim's life resembles that of Reed and Bonny, she also much resembles the exploits of Catalina de Erauso a Spanish Nun who fled to the New World and had a series of very colorful adventures as a conquistador, and was the first female autobiographer to live in the New World. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalina_de_Erauso. Her book is still inprint today. On the use of "they," I really don't see any inaccuracy tbh. "They" is repeatedly used in tons of cases where the referent's gender is unknown/irrelevant all the way back in the 17th century and continuing all the way to this day. This, despite the repeated efforts of modern grammarians to insist that "they" shouldn't/can't be used as a 3rd person singular; and that we have to use awkward formulations like "one" or "He or she".
A thing I find quite interesting about Catalina de Erauso is also how both feminine and masculine terminations are used in the text, given that Spanish did not have a gender-neutral pronoun at the time, but they clearly found a way to navigate their relationships to gender. I love that he uses both, but at the same time will tell you about shouting death threats at someone who called them "madam" once.
I was about to mention the part about singular they as well! It was predominantly used in the English language all the way back to Middle English (predating the word "you" even) and only began to fall out of prominence in the 19th century as a result of first the rise of the distinct upper class British dialect today and standards in the US based upon those in the northeast of the country, both linked closely to the rise of nationalism and enforced broadly through centralized education teaching a "proper" version of English in the US and UK. So really, the idea that they is only a plural is a somewhat more modern conception.
Grammarians that know anything about history, I assure you, are quite happy to welcome back they/them as a third person gender irrelevant word, as it served diligently for a long time and now does again!
ah yes, our flag means death, the show that prides itself on its historical accuracy, as its creator david "i read the first paragraph on wikipedia" jenkins would confirm honestly the massive anachronisms are a huge part of the show's charm for me.
I think it’s kind of sweet that Jenkins was so oblivious to queer coding that he genuinely didn’t consider it a big deal at all and was so surprised. It was so casually, wonderfully queer and it didn’t make it a big thing, and I love that about it so much. Such a beautiful show. When they actually kissed, I was watching it on opening night at like 3 AM and my soul nearly left my body
David Jenkins absolutely was not "oblivious to queercoding". This is a misunderstanding of his comments about how he underestimated the impact queerbaiting could have.
In fairness, one of the first times Jim's surname is mentioned, it's Lucious mangling it. If you're unfamiliar with Spanish language conventions I could see missing this one
I really liked the note that the definitions of what "trans" is would have changed throughout history. If our society was 100% accepting of fluid gender expression, we likely wouldn't care to divide people by "trans" or "cis" identifiers because they'd be unnecessary, like we likely wouldn't care to define "man", "woman", or "nonbinary" in a society without assigned gender. Also, one thing I think this video might miss out on is that while there are moments of pride in historical accuracy in the show, there's just as many moments where they wholeheartedly embrace the anachronisms. Ed and Mary's clothing, the way they speak, who and why certain people are around and together, etc. This show wants to tell a story of an idea of Stede Bonnet and Blackbeard, not what the story of the time was.
That seem to be what Jessie was referring to when she quoted that stuff about what Native Americans used to think, when their gender categories were not as binary as those of the incoming colonisers.
my brain is so used to queerbaiting that halfway through the show, i was like "okay, let's finish the first season and then head to AO3 for some resolution on that relationship". when they kissed i was genuinely shocked. although to be honest i started to have my suspicions while watching lucius' reaction to the treasure hunt campfire conversation lol
@@kinesin8221 yeah, I did a double take at his reaction. Came into the show pretty cold so I really wasn't expecting much, not sure if that was scripted or improv but it was certainly relatable
I was the gay autistic pirate kid in school. I'm non-binary and having this show made me feel so seen in so many ways. Thank you for covering this, Jessie!! Amazing as always :)
i cannot believe it, people make such a fuzz about they/them pronouns. and yet i didn't notice that they used they/them on Jim through the show. they feel like normal pronouns in the show because they are.
As a Puerto Rican. It’s great to see Vico Ortiz (who is Puerto Rican) be in a show that is getting great reactions. It’s just very rare to see Puerto Ricans in mainstream media let allow in an LBGTQ show. I’m so proud of them! 🇵🇷
I have a friend who's currently in finals for getting a BA in English including a very in depth study of grammar. According to them (and the rather extensive list of references in their paper) on the topic, the use of "they" is "ubiquitous to fill the place of a gender-neutral, sex-indefinite third person singular pronoun" as far back as the 14th century. They can't remember exactly when the generic masculine (using he in the aforementioned circumstance), but they think it was somewhere in the same time frame as many other attempts to impose an ordered grammar on English in the latter half of the 18th century. So by that logic, it seems reasonable that a pirate would use they to refer to a person whose gender is not known or presumed, which could reasonably be extended to Jim.
I remember watching OFMD as the series aired, and I was really close to dropping it to be honest. I’m nonbinary, and when I saw Jim, I thought that they were going to be the same “woman dressing as a man to enter a male space but it says nothing about her gender identity and she gets a boyfriend because she’s definitely cishet”. Like, obviously clothes don’t equal gender, but after seeing the same story over and over again, I thought that Jim was just going to hurt me when I was already feeling invisible from being in the closet for so long. But then I continued watching and it slowly dawned on me that even though the words “trans” or “nonbinary” weren’t being used, they were very clearly being written with the trans experience in mind. But I still expected the show to disappoint me. I looked up their actor expecting to find a cis actor playing a nonbinary character but nope! Vico Ortiz is nonbinary. Once I was finally able to let my guard down and stop expecting Jim to disappoint me, they became incredibly comforting to me. I’m still in the closet, and the stress surrounding that can be more or less intense depending on the situation, and March just so happened to be one of those bad months, so Jim was really important to me. I hope we get more representation like Jim in the future, but they’re always going to hold a special place in my heart
yeah, as a binary trans guy I was fully expecting that to be the trope as soon as it was revealed Jim isn't a cis man, so even though I loved the show even from those first episodes, the idea that they were just gonna backtrack and make them a "woman in disguise" broke my heart just a little bit, especially the in between them being outed and then accepted for who they are. although I was hoping for some trans man specific representation (non-binary and transmasc representation I would say are on a somewhat even playing field of being left out of media, especially more specific media I'm interested in, like comedy) I was still really happy with non-binary rep and I'm really glad their character turned out the way it did. even though beyond gender identity into the realm of personality I don't extremely relate to Jim, I think it's been nice to see a character like them without trying to seem them through the lens of relating to them, as I tend to do with generally binary men characters I feel close in behaviour and thought to. I'm now realizing this response is really unnecessary and too long as my responses always are, but I'll put it out there. also I'm really sorry that March was hard for you, I hope things are getting better and will continue getting better in the grand scheme of things, in the meantime we'll have OFMD to be there for us when we need it. good luck to you out there :)
I love how Jim's coming out scene isn't treated as this huge plot point, they just say "yo I'm still the same person so treat me the same as you used to" and that was that. I love that and I also love that you brought a trans guy on to talk about what Jim means to us!
As a non-binary person, I loved the way that Jim was represented. Not as something fake or as a person who needed to perform their non-binary identity 'correctly' in order for the crew to take them seriously. Once again, another phenomenal video Jessie. Thank you.
"Who goes to South Carolina?" Anne Bonney was from South Carolina. So, I am guessing, she was staying close to family. Besides, South Carolina was a hub for pirates to sell their loot. Living in that then colony meant she could keep one foot on land with her blood family and one foot in the sea with her pirate life. The best of both worlds.
As a queer latine, I just LOVED what Vico said about Jim's portrayal! It's amazing to see more nonbinary rep that isn't aliens or sentient objects lmao Much love to you Jessie, thanks for always bringing us so much valuable content.
So thrilled to have been part of this! Thanks, Jessie! 💙 I'm so excited to see where this show goes, and how Vico Ortiz's career develops from here. The love and support they've received has been so wonderful to see.
Really great segment. Have you watched The Harder They Fall on Netflix? That features a trans masc character named Cuffee who is based on a real life person and I'm curious to see how trans men/trans masc people view the character. Especially since he's played by a cis woman.
So good seeing you in this vid Finn! You look amazing btw ^_^ And yes my goodness I can't wait to see where Vico Ortiz goes from here, along with everyone else on this show because there's so many fresh new faces who are getting a chance to do something awesome and meaningful
As a nonbinary person, the idea of genders as sets of societal expectations that one feels more or less inclined to fit into based on a mixture of biology, historical context and personal preferences was really, REALLY helpful to me. One of the concepts that disappoints/fascinates me the most is that of gender, which apparently has no definition but it's central to every known society in some way. This video finally gave me a definition that's good enough to keep at the back of my mind but with enough gray areas to be elaborated upon. Words cannot express how at peace I am right now ♥️ P.S - I have been planning to watch OFMD as soon as I saw video titles describing it as a "gay pirate show". After today, I most definitely will watch it, even if I have to pirate it, pun intended.
@@kaiyodei Have you watched Lily Alexandre's "Millions of Dead Genders"? That video (one of the best gender-related ones I've ever watched) helped me empathize a lot more with xenogender people. ContraPoints' "Transtrenders" was also a huge help. The TL; DR for what I've learned from both videos is basically that: 1) the xenogender population may be, for the most part, composed of the following types of people: * Children/teens/YAs that are gender-questioning and get kinda overexcited by the idea; *Nonbinary people who, for a variety of reasons, find certain images and metaphors so relatable that they choose to use them as their genders. 2) Even though some of them can be very cringe on social media, at the end of the day they are not hurting anyone, so why waste precious time and energy thinking about them? Humans do weird stuff all the time.
@@kaiyodei Sadly, the only practical way to engage in online discourses on the validity of xenogender identities without being bashed is not engaging in them at all, focusing your time on learning about more important gender-related issues (e.g anti-trans laws). Imo, discussing the historicity or the validity of xenogender identities (which are, at best, a tiny subset of the trans community) will never take anyone anywhere, except for historians, anthropologists and other scholars who, for whatever reason, decide to write a serious academic study about the xeno community. Disclaimer: I'm NOT criticizing you for engaging in discussions about xenogender people, just saying that, for the sake of your own patience, you should avoid it as much as you can, if you can't help doing it. Edit: if you want to make a story featuring catgender characters, you could just make anime-style catpeople reply stuff like "I'm just a cat, nyan" when asked questions about their genders. Another possibility would be assigning different types of catgender to different breeds of cats. Each breed would be expected to behave in different ways or be better at different things (e.g black cats, known in-universe as "familiars", would be trained to do magic and work for witches. There could be cis familiar and transfamiliar cats, i.e non-black cats who did magic and worked for witches). As for the blizzgender folks, you could create different types of ice elementals (anthropomorphic or not), each with different AGABs: Blizzard, Hail, Diamond (as in Diamond Dust), Frost, Snow... each gender trained to do different types of ice magic and/or to look a certain way. You might've just been being ironic about creating xenogender characters, but I'm Autistic and thus sometimes don't get when people are joking or being ironic, especially if they're talking via text 😅
@@enbyarchmage hi, a fellow autistic enby here, and I want to add my two cents on xenogenders (and their "questionable validity") too. This comment isn't necessarily aimed at you, but in general (and a little bit @kaiyodei) to help people understand the phenomenon more. I probably could be considered myself under the xenogender label (although I don't personally use it), because I really go "mood" and get gender envy whenever I see something monstrous but vaguely humanoid and feminine, think a typically feminine body but horns and fangs and claws and wings and unusual skin color and maybe an extra pair of eyes and such, you look at it like "a woman? ish? actually I don't know if I can call this a woman as it's not really even human so applying human concepts of gender to this seems kind of redundant", and like that's a mood, I want to be seen with very vague feminine qualities but ultimately not even quite human enough to be assigned a human concept of gender, if I could look any way I want, I'd go for something kinda demonic like that because that would just feel the most inviting and comfortable to me. In my personal experience, very few people feel like they *actually* literally are for example animals, they just feel a really close connection to them and like it as something for other people to consider them as, not all that different than trans people with binary genders if you think about it, you can just really vibe with the idea of the societal roles and expectations of an animal or some fictive monster instead of the "opposite" to your assigned gender. I don't think there should even be arguing that "that's invalid" as it's literally quite a common non-binary experience to feel like your gender just doesn't fit neatly into "man" or "woman" or "both" or "no gender" but is something above those limitations altogether, even if many don't actually label something non-human they may kinda vibe with as their gender. It's also worth noting that even binary and cis-people have their own microgenders of sorts, like there isn't just "girls and boys" but a whole microcosmos of subcategories that are technically of the same gender but also a subset of the gender in a way, personally I'd raise "tomboy girls" as a very obvious example, some girls just like looking and/or acting quite boyish but can still be 100% girls, but could also be labeled their own microgender as their gender expression etc is slightly different to many other girls. Many could identify themselves as not just girls but as "horse girls" because they feel like liking horses is such an integral part of their identity, almost likeneable to a gender, not to mention so many aesthetic labels like being not just any girl but specifically a "goth girl" etc. Non-binary people doing their own versions of this shouldn't be all that much stranger, we just like to identify with something we feel a strong connection to and that somehow feels like it reflects us in an important way, and attach it to ourselves as a gender label.
@@kaiyodei Even though I'm confused about whether you're being serious or not, I'm sensing some heavy sarcasm in here 😂 P.S I would indeed love if there were a (well-written) transgender/nonbinary Autistic character in a major TV show. Idk how a well-written xenogender character would be like... Using the example you provided, they'd probably like horses so much that they'd dress in horse-themed clothing and choose a horse-themed name for themselves (like Tenma, which means Pegasus in Japanese). Other than that, idk how one could create a horsegender character that would be, at the same time, quirky, realistic and relatable.
Love this review and I'm obsessed with this show! My one little quibble is that I don't think they're committed to historical accuracy at all. Olu literally wears Crocs. Historicity is something they play fast and loose with. Blackbeard's costume alone is so historically inaccurate. Of course, you may have been saying that tongue in cheek and I'm too dense to miss it 😋
@@baronblackdragon9078 of course! I actually love that about the show. It was more feedback for Jessie. It’s like when I rewatched The Tudors, not historically accurate, but more history in it than I remember!
Ya and that s not blackbeards flag either. There is a LOT of historical fiction fo sho- which is most of what we know about these pirates anyways ( written as sensational stories after their deaths)
I do some historical costuming, and they did some *really* clever things with Blackbeard/Ed's costume. Like he wears what looks like a one-sleeved biker jacket, but it only uses materials and fastenings that would have been around in the 1700's. No zippers, just buttons with leather loops, and some cool metal buckles. The shark tooth on the shoulder is a nice touch, too. Those costumers were having a lot of fun!
My dad is one of the "trans people are a fad" people and it gets exhausting to listen to; I'm glad you make these videos on queer history and modern events
oh my god, this outfit. it looks so good. and the cute little hat. you look amazing, i'm kind of hoping for more pirate content just so you can bust out that outfit again lol edit: and the earring! so cute!
To me I got in many ways a larger message from our flag. To me(Cis white male, straightish) the show was principally about being your authentic self. Whatever others think of that. I think that is the true heroism of Stede Bonnet is his willingness to be who he wants to be regardless of what people think of it. That is I think what fascinates Blackbeard, who didn't have that courage to face ridicule until meeting Bonnet. One of the most interesting things was that the show at first presents Bonnet as just this ridiculous character and after a few episodes it becomes clear that he's actually heroic and the most courageous character. One aspect that I think what makes Our Flag means Death so good is that it conveys that larger message through characters who are often literally "queer" in one way or another. It shows the wider issues of the conflict between being your most authentic self and social expectations which everyone should be able to relate to and uses characters who typically wouldn't be given the protagonist roles unless the show was just about their journey of self-discovery.
As a transmasc who is trying to find their path in life in a country that barely recognises trans men and women much less non-binary individuals seeing Jim is incredibly important. I have always first experienced the world through stories, learning about people and their experience, and discovering myself through them. So seeing a strory telling me "See? This always existed, you are not abnormal, confused or invisible. There were, are and will be others like you, I see you" is something I cannot help but feel incredibly grateful for. And it gives me hope that one day I can be seen as well
I want to add that while many aspects of the show are extremely historically accurate, much of the dialogue uses quite modern lingo. Pirates (even gentleman ones) didn’t actually call parts of their closets the “autumn vibes” section. This is a modern figure of speech. So if people are taking issue specifically with the fact that Jim is eventually referred to as gender neutral pronouns when that isn’t strictly accurate, they’d better take issue with like… a good portion of word choices employed by the characters as well.
Okay, Jessie, I like your content a lot but the segment on Anne Bonny and Mary Read, well there's a lot of problems. I'm going to make this as constructive as I can and link several sources from a registered pirate historian and a pultizer nominated journalist. There's also an amazing book on the historiography of pirate identity called Treasure Neverland that has a full chapter on female piracy, this is mostly by memory. Most of the history of piracy, specifically Anne and Mary, comes from a 1724 book called The General History of the Pyrates, published by an unknown author, although often assumed to be a newspaper printer named Nathaniel Mist. Its where a lot of stories about people like Bartholomew Roberts and Blackbeard comes from. It absolutely isn't trustworthy, a lot of claims cannot be fact checked and when they can be, it never matches. Anne and Mary are the worst of the bunch in this regard, almost everything is fictionalized. Annes chapter in the book is mostly a comical farce about lost spoons that leads to her birth for example, its not a historical document. A lot of other details about Anne and Mary come from a 1960s romance novel called Mistress of the Seas, point is, little is truly known. What we do know is that in August 1720, John Rackam stole a sloop from Nassau and onboard were Anne and Mary. They never hid there gender, governor Woode Rogers put out a proclamation days later mentioning them. It was less a grand adventure and more a small pirate vessel of about 15 people attacking fishermen and small schooners. They raided for two months before being caught by Jonathan Barnet in what amounted to a ship fight that lasted for seconds. Rackam fired one swivel shot and Barnet delivered a volley that knocked down the mast, everyone surrendered instantly. At the trial Anne and Mary admitted to be spinsters of New Providence Island IE were never married, witnesses claimed they were active members of the crew and wore sailors garb while attacking a ship, and wore womens clothing when off duty. Nobody was killed during this two month spree, although Anne really wanted to kill a woman named Dorothy Thomas but got overuled. Anne never said anything sarcastic during the trial or battle, she actually said very little. They were both sentenced to death but were not executed due to the pregnancy that part is real. Mary Read did die in prison around late April 1721, Anne vanished from all records leading to years of speculation, Tamara Eastman in 2000 for a book titled the Trial of Anne Bonny and Mary Read, claimed Anne lived until 1789, although that's partially taking from Mistress of the Seas, also her claim was based on documentation she never produced and later admitted was not real. Two years back I found documentation that hints Anne died in Jamaica around 1733, but that's not definitely either I'll confess. So what's real? Anne and Mary were real people who were pirates for two months, they came from Nassau and weren't married. They might have been prostitutes judging by Woodes Rogers trying to root out sex workers in early 1720 and the large influx of them in the late 1710s. There was never any proof they cross dressed to hide identity, it seems to have purely for practical reasons during boarding action. We don't know where they were born or looked like or ages. The name Anne Bonny isn't particularly Irish and the trial transcript even calls her Ann Fulford and Ann Bonn so even the name is somewhat in doubt Again I don't mean to be cruel or angry or anything I respect your work a lot. I'm trans and I love having someone like you around. But pirate history is my area of expertise, I've studied it for years. Its a really hard subject to get right. PS that last source involves me but its before transition, wish I could change the pronouns and photo but oh well. www.postandcourier.com/news/the-true-and-false-stories-of-anne-bonny-pirate-woman-of-the-caribbean/article_e7fc1e2c-101d-11e8-90b7-9fdf20ba62f8.html csphistorical.com/2016/05/08/anne-bonny-and-mary-read-female-pirates-and-maritime-women-page-one/ www.postandcourier.com/news/a-22-year-old-youtuber-may-have-solved-anne-bonny-pirate-mystery-300-years-after/article_78fc0a2e-2914-11eb-a5f5-03b65f4d281a.html
@@lyndonwesthaven6623 No problem. Piracy is never dull if you dig deep enough into documentation. It just rarely lines up with any popular understanding.
I don't think Our Flag means Death is very historically accurate, but it's deliberately not trying to be that and I think that makes it even more enjoyable.
What i personally like most about jims outing is that, while their portrayal of the nonbinary experience is modern, in universe it could still reasonably have been come up with by the crew imo. Like: Jim explains they are not really a man anymore but not a woman either and the crew would been like, "but what do we call jim noiw when he and she dont work?" and lucius or stede mention that in written word, they can be used as a neutral pronoun. Generally the show does a lot of these things where something has no proof of existing in that time, but it also theoretically can't be disproven that people could come up with it.
I love the show and hope there'll be a second season! It's been quite successful. A correction, though: By no means does this show "pride itself in historical accuracy"! I mean, they use modern lingo right from the start, Stede reads stories that had not been written yet to the crew, his wife/ widow basically invents cubism, and so on.
also blackbeard's mad max outfit, lol. i think it's more accurate to say that the creators/wardrobe/etc. did their research and then deliberately added anachronistic elements for comedic/dramatic effect.
"our flag means death prides itself on historical accuracy" you mean the show where blackbeard shops at pirate h&m, scurvy is treated with oranges 40 years before vitamin c was discovered, and a woman invents cubism 200 years early?
Wonderful video. I adore Jim, and I adore the fact that everyone just rolled with everything (yeah there were some questions initially but once those were out of the way Jim could just be Jim). Also Charleston! Never been but I know of many people who have and whatever is there apparently is amazing
13:13 "OFMD- a show that prides itself on historical accuracy" was this sarcastic? I couldn't tell:D Also, I was thinking about Izzy, when Finntastic Mr. Fox was talking about how easy it is for a transmasculine person to fall into paterns of toxic masculinity. Izzy's relationship with gender performance is so interesting. How he pushes himself and others to upkeep this masculine image and despises Stede's and Luciu's (and later on Ed's) ability to be comfortable with their own version of masculinity. P.s. Wonderful video, Jessie:))
I know we as a society have a LONG way to go, but it melts my heart to see Jim and the rest of the characters breaking down harmful stigmas. I hope for a world where everyone can see how awesome you are without any preconceptions.
Love this video, but it did make me laugh a little. Ah yes, that historical 'accuracy' it prides itself on... Oluwande's crocs... 1717 being a leap year... the liver being on the left below your ribcage... very accurate! 😅 (This is said very affectionately, because I actually love how blasé they are in regards to period accuracy and basic facts in any number of fields (really adds to the comedy), and I agree with your point Jessie that anachronisms can bring a mirror up to our society today. But it is funny seeing people say that the show is dedicated to accuracy when there's so many places where they clearly don't care about it at all! Also I'm pretty sure David Jenkins has said they're going to diverge from history in the way the story ends, because it doesn't end well irl and they want the show to have a more uplifting ending. So yeah, the amount of details that are actually true is surprising, but that's all the more so because the rest of it is just so not!)
Yes I imagine the ending where Stede Bonnet gets dragged kicking and screaming to the gallows weeks after Blackbeard was shot 5 times and stabbed 20 times wouldn't be the most appealing finale.
Was so psyched for this vid and it was awesome. What a beautiful analysis of Jim's journey- I was initially so confused when they didn't take up their "destiny"/revenge arc and went for overcoming trauma. Thank you for talking about the incorrect beliefs about the historical ideas about gender roles/queer history. Because it erases the reality that gender has always been a fluid journey. It is a whitewashing/cishet washing of history that is so ridiculous if you think about it for one minute. Like DeBeauvoir claiming women were ALWAYS oppressed - it s just ignoring so many cultures and ideas of gender that have existed throughout history. Much love and can't wait for season 2 either. I miss Lucious 😢
I mean, in most major patriarchal cultures, women *have* been seriously oppressed through most of human history, if not outright property, but that also doesn't change the fact that most cultures were far more fluid about gender than Christian Europe, as well. Both can be true at the same time.
I know this came out about 4 months ago, so you probably won't see this, but as a newly realized trans-femme enby, this video, and most of what you've made that I've watched so far, is extremely touching and makes me feel very seen. I'm commenting here, due to the fact that I am currently at work, where I work as a dock person for a logistics company and listening to this currently hase bawling my eyes out...
I found it surprising and actually relieving when they kissed and it turned out not to be queerbaiting! Also - showing Steed's wife living her best Widow Life and the enby adventures of Jim - it was like taking my shoes off after a long day. Damn it representation feels so good. Always love your stuff, Jessie ♥
I was so incredibly relieved by how they managed the conversation between Stede and Mary. They avoided the common tropes-rejection, implication of lying, "that explains a lot"-and just gave us something really heartfelt. Mary is a queen and I love her.
@@kashiichan Its extremely refreshing in that scene that Mary is just happy for Stede in that moment. We see Mary so often in the show in flashbacks where she seems to disdain him/his behavior and yet when they talk about things for the most part when Stede comes back theres just such an openness between them (well especially after she didnt kill him) and supporting each other. I really enjoy how when this show has to include comments that show homophobia or racism that they dont lean into trauma violence or other stuff like so many period movies/shows do for "accuracy" or to make non-marginalized people sympathize w/a character (and usually make jokes at the commentors expense-like Olu and Frenchie swindling the aristocrats and it being a reference to pyramid schemes.)
I love that all my favourite RUclipsrs are talking about this show! I was looking forward to knowing Jessie's opinion about it, because I enjoyed OFMD so much.
LOVED this video!!! this is the first time i found out vico cortez is irl nonbinary, and as a latine nonbinary irl...it has made me more happy than i can say :,) thanks jessie!
Interestingly enough, I remember reading, a few centuries earlier than the show is set they/them pronouns were more commonly used as a third person pronoun, granted not as a way of showing gender but as the familiar form of third person pronoun for all genders with he or she being used for someone you didn't know or were expected to show deference to (with the exception of God where the familial form would be used and quite often this was extended to those in religious orders as a mark of Godliness) similar to how in the second person 'thee' was for familiars and 'you' was the polite form. However there was a shift in the 1500s (scholarship is divided on whether the Reformation caused it, personally I'm on the no side since the second person form which was also dropped from formal English around the same time was not used religiously) whereby in formal English thee was dropped and you became the second person form for everyone and they became the third person plural although the phase out of singular they familiar wasn't complete as far as we can tell until the 18th century (and with how little of ordinary speech was recorded until the mid-19th century perhaps it never did completely phase out) and singular they was also used for a time as a way to denote a social inferior (sometimes used to refer to enslaved persons, servants, working class people, indentured servants etc.). Anyway, hope this history was interesting and hope you'll have a nice day.
Yep that's definitely correct. Grammarians have been trying to stop "they" being a third person singular gender indeterminate pronoun since their have been grammarians. In the 17th century "they" is used in this way; even more modernly. I still remember in school having "they" being corrected to "He or she" or "One" by my teachers. Tons of writers used "they" as a singular pronoun from the 16th century through the 20th centuries such as Shakespeare, Dickens, Christie, etc.
@@Seal0626 I'm not entirely sure, perhaps it's unknown, it might be Scandinavian influence (similar to how English settled on 'egg' after a few centuries of the South using Erin (from the Germanic) and the North used Eggis (from the Norse)) and since 1000 years ago English and Swedish were mutually intelligible I wonder if it was the other way round in Old Norse and English took the Nordic path at some point.
@@phillipmessier4371 I wonder why grammarians have been (in a majority of cases historically and so often in the present) pushing back against singular they.
So, the familiar vs deferential split applied to the second person, but not to the third person. With third person, it was (as Phillip mentions) about specific vs hypothetical/indeterminate. But as a linguist I have definitely used the second person evolution as an example of how something that is "plural" in form can also be applied to singular referents and then shift meaning *again* after that!
Hey Jessie just a heads up the image you put up as an example of chinese women pirates is not chinese, that's an indigenous Ainu person from japan. The image is one falsely attributed online to be Ching Shih.
The way this show very specifically utilizes its anachronisms to be as deliberate in representation was definitely one of the things i love about both Jim's story as well as the show overall. This vid is amazing. ♡♡♡ thank you for making it.
I'm so glad this series exist! And that it just threw itself fearlessly into the mainstream spotlight. I do think it's a shame that so much of trans and nonbinary history is buried and kept out of the mainstream media; it's always been there, but there will always be 'those people' who try to downplay it. I'm a writer, and one day I'd love to find a way to include an homage to the French novelist and poet George Sand, a highly talented and sassy AFAB who, for most of her life, dressed as a man 'without a permit' (because yes, back in those days women *needed to apply for permits* if they wanted to publicly dress in men's clothes) and took both men and women as lovers.
I studied Anne Bonny and Mary Read’s history (via Wikipedia) years ago, and one thing I thought was a funny tid bit was how Mary only revealed her secret to Anne after Anne kept on pursuing her, thinking she was another handsome man on ship. Calico Jack, Anne’s lover, got extremely jealous, so Mary had to out herself to him in order to save her life. Thought it would make for a fun Yuri manga.
9:40: Mind you, you've Gráinne Mhaoil in Ireland and Ching Shih in China. Gráinne Mhaoil is kind of a big deal were I'm from in the North West as a symbol of three things: skill in politics, eruditeness (just as we were being portrayed as savages), and skill as an admiral. She was a general badass, and not as well known as she should be outside of Ireland.
19:00 - I'd say this is more general: queerness as a broader tent is to a degree defined by the older meaning of "queer" as odd, different, unexpected. As soon as you become "normal, expected", you stop being queer. Instead, you're accepted without question and thus in no way "queer". Which is one of the problems that I have with the "f*ck you, I've got mine" school: if they were at any moment to have their status drop the popularly "negative" parts of their identity would come of the surface for others. Intersectionalism isn't just for the people who get the bad end of the stick in life, and no matter how privileged any of us are in some way, we should act to eliminate that privilege and thus its reciprocal disadvantage. I guess I'm saying we could all be kinder.
I’m nonbinary myself and this is wonderful, I’m so so happy with this representation, it helped me come to terms with my own gender identity, which I’ve always struggled with since I realised that people were obsessed with this thing called “gender” (I’m autistic and was blissfully unaware of social constructs like gender roles until I was around 12 or 13). Jim should have their top surgery if they want to, and it’s just beautiful that the fandom made Vito feel safe to do something that they desired to do. I don’t trust Roach to do their surgery though, with his “knives are knives. Meat is meat” thing. Jim, please have someone else do it for you because I worry, honey. /j
I started watching the show a while back but university hit so i couldn't watch far. Seeing all this in a show i liked much is really heartwarming to my little enby bi heart haha
Edit: i watched the full thing back and forth at least 3 times by now and im obsessed and i am ready to bully hbo into renewing for the next season (and for like a couple more haha)
this is off topic but I remember how in the video game "Dreamfall Chapters" one of the male protagonists was talking about his sexual orientation (how he is attracted to men, and not using the label "gay" cuz it didn't fit in the lore/universe of the game ) but since he could kiss a woman (depends on player choice) some ppl didn't really believed it or fully understood it so later in the game the writers wrote him expletive saying that he is gay in a funny banter
jessie - great video, and i loved "our flag means death" also. but for pity's sake, _don't_ get scurvy on the high seas! eat an orange 🍊, or a grapefruit, or some sort of citrus. please.
Me as a kid: "haha scurvy is a stupid disease" Me as an adult: "scurvy is terrifying and I will go out of my way to make sure it never ever happens to me or anyone I care about"
Jim made me understand the phrase "i feel seen" in a way I never have before. I was so sensitive to how the other characters treated them, and the kindness and respect that they received made me feel so embraced.
Really well formulated and thoughtfull video! Agree about the importance of representation that makes the identity a big part of the character but also lets them do other stuff. I feel like we so often get either characters are only allowed to be "the gay best friend" and never do their own thing, or characters who come out in one episode and it's never mentioned again. This felt like a nice balance.
I was curious about this show when I first saw it. But admittedly, it was because of La'Ron's video here on RUclips that pushed me to see it, before his discussion! I have since seen many cover this, and have recommended it as much as I can c: That last episode though :(
It was good to hear "Latine" used in context. I'm cis and white, so I really don't get a say, but none of the Hispanics I know use Latinx, including my wife. It doesn't fit neatly into the language. There is a good video by Bad Empanada explaining that while it is MOSTLY used by white Americans, it is used somewhat among native speakers. But Latine is a much more common gender neutral term among native speakers as it fits naturally as an addition to the existing language.
I've not seen this series yet and your analysis of Jim's character makes me want to see it even more. Personally I have no problem with shows and films not being strictly historical accurate as long they try capture the look and feel of the historical period. One of my favourite films The Knight's Tale revels in its anachronisms.
Another enby here to praise Jim. I am out, people know I am enby, I have provided my workplace with resources and even did a presentation on non-binary identities, and I still get misgendered every damn day. To see Jim’s aunt so effortlessly use they/them, to show their identity as so normalised and understood, made me cry. If more media had this representation, I think it would be a lot easier for people to understand, to just get used to it without us having to do all the correcting and educating all the time
Holy crap! So, this is the gay pirate show! I've struggled for half a century to tolerate pirate movies, but they were so toxic masculine. This sounds like what I've needed but didn't know was possible. Very smart video, Jessie. You get better every day.
while i love this video the "show that prides itself in historical accuracy" description couldnt be further from the truth lmao. theres a thread of all the little inaccuracies starting with 1717 not being a leap year and stede talking about a moth that hasnt been discovered yet and ending with olus crocs.
Thanks so much from another masc-leaning afab enby for this video about my favourite knife slinging non-binary pirate! You hit on a lot of the ways that people around me have been making my transition more difficult than it needs to be, and how great the rep on OFMD has been for us. If my family could be half as cool about things as the crew of the Revenge, life would be smooth sailing indeed. As is, in spite of some painful chronic illness, I'm ready to take up my old hobby of knife throwing again... (Yeah, I really did. Used a pic of George W Bush nailed to the wall of the shed for target practice back in the day, before I messed up my shoulder. 😉)
My spouse was listening over my shoulder while I watched this and would like to recommend you Charlie Jane Anders' and Becky Chambers' works, if you haven't read them. They said they were really impressed with the settings, in which many gender expressions exist and are simply accepted.
I wholeheartedly agree with the fact that we, people like we, have always existed, not with the same definitions, not with the same sense of being a we, but as people who did transgress gender norms and lived outside of the gender binary most often set by sex. I think we need more visibility on that. When people take a historical figure that was queer and they assume they are cis - are they not projecting a whole set of preconceptions about gender as well on those figures? By always claiming we can't say people in the past were trans or non-binary, they don't really mean "it wasn't the same back then", what they mean is "you don't really exist". They draw a line between us as the product of a capitalist modern society and gender fluidity in the past, and while of course, what we are can only be the product of our current society - so are they. But it gets so unequal in who is subjected to discussion. So I feel it's a good practice to allow ourselves to enlarge the meaning of transgender and/or non-binary to other time periods, and not just for how those phenomenon manifest today, because ways of living existed without a word to express them. And maybe there were various words, in various cultures, but they would not be kept by the dominant culture that got passed to us, because margins and transgressions are not something power is keen to register or use...
I expect this to get rambly so I beg your indulgence. Jessie, I am so glad I found your channel and am so very grateful for your insights, explanations, and perspectives. I'm a cis het man who struggles to understand what it is to be "transgender". I don't even know if that sentence makes sense to anybody but myself. Never-the-less I want my fellow humans to be happy. To be free to simply be themselves. To be able to live and not just survive. I know that I do not understand and that because I do not understand, and my cultural conditioning, I question and analyze and (radical transparency here) judge whether I feel the individual "passes" or not (though I try to keep it inside of "I wish their transition was easier for them"). I want my internal mental responses to fully match my external behavioral actions and choices. Externally I am always, "they are being the way they want to be. Doesn't make a difference to me or my life if they want to wear dresses, or have a beard, or change their name, or have long hair, or do everything all at once". Internally there is so often a part of me that goes, "I don't understand why they are wanting that". (really trying to avoid the word 'choice' because while there is a choice it's a choice of pursuing your authentic self or trying to conform to society rather than one of what you want to be.) I want to align internal and external responses. I'm trying to get them aligned. I guess I'm using your channel as a brain rinsing agent (as opposed to brain washing). I am using repeated exposure to lgtba+ experiences and concepts as a way to train my brain to accept them as different than my own but not weird or incomprehensible but simply another way that people ARE. Ironically I've always felt I was an "atypical man" who doesn't like sports or competition or cars or any of the typical man things (though I'm a gamer nerd so I'm not too far out of the current "masculine realm" 8) and am neurodivergent so have always felt like an outsider. Somehow that doesn't help me truly grok the outsider experience that comes from being lgtba+ That being said, I don't have to have a deep and fundamental understanding to be an ally or to welcome you into our shared societal spaces. I just have to listen, learn from what I hear, and work to make my corner of the world enthusiastically accepting of the wonderful diversity that exists within this human family of ours. again, I'm so glad I found your channel, and thank you. p.s. I enjoy your patreon songs. They are silly and weird but so good.
13:00 - they/them as been a thing since at least Shakespeare, and likely long before. The problem is the weird fixation that some have had on making English fit into a Latin mould, when it's both a Germanic language and a weirdass one at that.
I also think it’s very important to have a nonbinary character who isn’t extremely focused on educating the rest of the characters (and therefore the audience) on nonbinary issues. I loved seeing Jim demand respect as a human, but never truly care what they were called. They had more important things to do than try to correct people every time they called them a woman. As a blue collar nonbinary person in a male dominated field, I could definitely relate.
18:31 When you said this I laughed out loud because I'm in an improv troupe with a kid named Wren (who's trans) (he's my Starkid brother) and one day, we were playing this game where all the seniors had a word or action that describes them, and Wren's thing was literally just shouting "SOCIALISM"
I usually try to wait untill a show has at least 2 or 3 seasons, but I've been hearing so many good things about this one, I guess it has to move over to the exceptions list.
I might have 130 tabs open, you're in 5 of them, this is one of the first sponsors that hasn't made me want to throw something the moment they were brought up.
19:40: or another thing: beer. Brewing was traditionally something that women mostly did, hence the surname "brewster". Men only got involved (outside of monasteries) when there was serious profit, which coincided, which also loosely coincided with the rise of protestantism. Because hops, which had a bunch of advantages as an additive, including making it easier to make beers that travel.
I have not been able to see this series (one more streaming thing I can't afford) BUT this was refreshing to see this look at it! I've shared this video on my FB, my friends and I are doing a small "book carnival" which theme is mermaids and pirates, with our focus being on diversity (neurodiversity, color, size, shape, gender, whatever)... this video just resonates! Your insights are awesome, keep it up! I came for the Trek, I stayed for the rest! I love Taika Waititi, and it's great to see him doing this. I've guest sailed on a few "pirate ships", and I recommend the experience to everyone. History is interesting, but how it relates to where we are now is the real treasure. Assateague Island VA has two wild ponies named Anne Bonny and Mary Reade... they are favs of mine.
"What if what makes Ed happy...is Stede?" SWOON SWOON SWOON SWOON SWOON (Also, have you seen Reservation Dogs? I'm like a third of the way in and it's really good. Sad but also funny but also sad in line with Hunt for the Wilderpeople and JoJo Rabbit.)
Ahhhhhh, yesssss, the gay pirates show, I have been completely obsessed with it for the last few weeks, and I'm so happy to see your video about it, and especially about my favourite character!
What was said contrasting the don't say gay bill and our flag means death was so poetic, beautiful and tragic that it made me shed tears. It's tragic that something that should be easy and simple is a culture political war and real people are getting needlessly hurt, but it's inspiring to have our flag means death. Makes me hopeful
Singular they/them is probably more historically accurate at the time, he/him as assumed was much later in the 18th century and even then it started in the aristocracy and would have taken a long time to filter down. He/Her and It (aside, originally He/Heo and Hit) did exist, but where more formal than singular they, so it'd likely pirates would refer to everyone as they/them... which obviously doesn't happen in the show, but also they were taught a bit by an aristocrat so I guess there's arguments to be made...
I’m not sure if this has been said before, and it’s not around the same era, but Jim reminded me of Amelio Robles Ávila, a colonel during the Mexican Revolution and a trans man. There were some women who helped during the war called “soldaderas” or “Adelitas”, some dressed as men as well to protect themselves from the misogyny. But Amelio, while assigned female at birth, he joined the revolution dressed as a man and continued his life as a man. In 1970 he was even officially listed as a veterano, which is just male veteran, his family accepted his identity and a known anecdote from one of his neighbors tells that if anyone would call him “Doña” (ma’am) he would threaten them with a pistol, which I just find badass.
I'm so glad you made a video on this! This was so thoughtful and perfectly worded, as usual. This show has meant so much to me as a queer poc, and I'm overjoyed at the love it's getting! Also, you make a great pirate! :D
Found you and this video on nebula, and I'm and instant subscriber. Thank you for making this enbys day and can't wait to dive into all your content, and Our Flag Means Death! ❤️
One note that I appreciate; the acknowledgement that the expectations of manhood have also been oppressive themselves. That is central to both Stede and Ed, but no one names it as a cause of trauma and dissuasion to healthy lives, despite it being central to their characters…
A couple of small quick corrections. First, Olun isn't the cook, that was a mistake in my notes. Also, I didn’t make this clear enough in the video. Jim is non-binary and not a trans man nor technically trans masc. When I discuss trans masc within the video, I discuss the presentation and how many trans masc & nonbinary folks relate to Jim and the trans history behind Jim's character. I don't wish to take anything away from nonbinary representation or discussions of nonbinary people, especially as I myself am nonbinary (and trans fem too). So the fact that I did not make this clear the distinction in the video is on me. Jim the character and Vice, the person, are nonbinary, not trans men or trans masc, and want to be entirely clear with that.
*Vico
I appreciate the distinction between being Nonbinary whilst having a certain agab, and being transmasc.
Something that's always been frustrating for me is how the label of transmasc is just applied to people whether or not they personally identify with it. It's happened to me despite being a fem Nonbinary person lol. At times it feels like being placed in a binary,,within being Nonbinary.
Like sure, I relate to Jim. I relate to a lot of experiences transmascs have.
And yeah,
Obviously some people are Nonbinary and transmasc, but not everyone is. And it's affirming to hear someone understand that.
You’re trans fem?
I thought you’re a trans woman
Doctor Who is having the first Trans companion. I hope it's for the right reasons and not for the sake of diversity
@@leejohnstone4663 my only note to what you said here is, would you worry if they had cast a white man if it would be “for the right reasons”. Not attacking, just a poke at the thought process ❤️
I think that the casual queerness of the show may be because the creator was oblivious to queercoding, he didn't see what he was doing as big so it helped the relationship feel all the more authentic and natural
The show runner may have been oblivious, but the writers, costume designers, artistic directors, etc, were certainly not.
And I'm convinced that Taika Waititi is working to make the world a little more accepting of queerness every day.
@@dottyjyoung oh yeah Taika's a gift from the stars 🌟
It was a romance, that happened to be queer.
Reminds me of the opposite XD Something Key... Locke & Key. I loved the first season. The second season was.. the opposite. All the characters were suddenly stupid and backwards and we as the audience didn't get to discover anything along with them - it was total shit.
And I think it was the first episode, the writers were like, oh, we should totally insert a gay black dude! So they did. At the dinner table the uncle had a friend who was learning Japanese so he could go to Japan for the rest of the series so the writers wouldn't have to give the _gay black dude_ a meaningful role and they "casually" forced the gay part in there by announcing the wedding for when he got back.
Since the characters went from smart and charismatic in the first series to braindead I stopped watching and a friend who also saw the third season said she remembered the awkward forced dinner table scene and thought nothing of it because it wasn't relevant to the story and she doesn't remember seeing the uncle's partner again.
I thought it was amazing; I never expected any writer to be so stupid as to blatantly and poorly force diversity in and send the only character who isn't cishet and white away forever just to not have to write an actual role or character for them. It was just, wow.
The drop off from an intelligent, fun show, where you as the viewer would discover things along with the characters to the stupidest shit in the history of stupid shit was perfectly timed; exactly at the same time as all their other blatant stupidity and lack of care of what shit they were making. Just, more wow. If I were someone who worked on the first and on the second season I would have traveled to a different planet, changed my name, and get deadly drunk to forget any of it happened.
David Jenkins absolutely was not "oblivious to queercoding". This is a misunderstanding of his comments about how he underestimated the impact queerbaiting could have.
"Intense historical accuracy" lmao Oluwande wears crocs and Blackbeard wears a biker jacket
Blackbeard's outfit was literally a Mad Max cosplay lmao.
Lol I laughed at that part too
Fang wears a Hot Topic belt on his head.
Yeah, I noticed that! The show interweaves historical ideas, but it’s all creative anachronism. Great show!
The scene where Jim tells their grandma their new name and she just smiles at them and says "well, come in Jim. We have cake." always makes me tear up
The Universal Public Friend lived in the 18th century. They were an American preacher who specifically used they/them pronouns. I find the Friend very cool, because they prove that non-binary people existed centuries before. So Jim is definitely historically accurate.
I randomly stumbled upon their story a few days ago while on an extended wiki-walk of obscure religious topics. Their story is one you find out about and immediately ask, "why haven't they made a movie about this?"
The Friend doesn't go by they/them. The Friend is "I don't have pronouns" but unironically.
Didn't the friend not use any pronouns at all?
I read the Friend ordered people to avoid pronouns altogether and only modern people have started talking about them with they/them pronouns. Either way their story is crazy!
They also are broadly aligned with the views of The Religious Society of Friends, (Quakers) who were (and still are) very radical leftists in society. Quakers are completely devoted to complete equality and building an egalitarian society. As a radical leftist and also a pagan, I think that Friends are some of the only good Christians
As a nonbinary person, Jim meant a lot to me. I barely get to see myself on screen so it was nice to have them
Same! It's so good to see nonbinary people being taken seriously as real characters with stories to be told rather than just "exotic" decorations, or people reduced to their gender identity. Also, Jim kicks ass.
I'm just a cishet white male and I've always considered myself not super masculine even though I do look it, giving me a lot of privileges and advantages I wish everyone had, but something puzzles me.
I have a lot of character traits that are traditionally considered feminine even though I never agreed with that. Things like wanting to care for people, being super empathic when people are in need of understanding and acknowledgement, and wanting to pamper nice people with good food and nice drinks, good atmosphere and things like that - I'm super sensitive. So are my two brothers, so it was always considered normal and my mom enjoyed teaching us how to cook and clean and buying me a doll for my birthday that I wanted so I could dress it in cute outfits my mom made, and care for it.
And yet, I see Jim with a beard and big nose, my brain goes, man. Then I learn they're non binary and i'm like, okay, they're non binary.
Then after learning that the nose and beard are gone and I'm like, _she's_ an attractive _woman._ How is my brain this dumb? Seriously. There was less than ten seconds between that! Sometimes I really think my IQ randomly switches from positive to negative.
Ah well... some day I'll learn, I hope. I assume that if I knew the actor personally I wouldn't screw up this easily because then it's just one person with a job instead of an actor playing a character and being interviewed as a person. Maybe my brain just figured it was a completely different role because of the lack of nose and beard, who knows. Also, I haven't seen the show yet and this is the first time I heard about the actor and I already forgot their name even though I remember I thought it was a pretty name, simply because I know nothing about them except their job. Brains, eh.
Hi Jessie,
As a historian of the 17th century, I can say that the portrayal of Jim is less inaccurate than most people would assume. As you note gender norms change over time and are different depending on culture, race, and even class.(minor quibble Our flag means death is 18th century). Just off the top of my head there are two 17th century figures who give some view to some of the very interesting lives of a couple of individuals we might think of as trans-people from the 17th century.
Thomas(ine) Hall who was one of the Jamestown colonists was quite likely intersex in some manner. Hall transitioned between male and female identities throughout their life en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas(ine)_Hall. Generally in cases involving intersex individuals where it came before a court, the person was ordered to adopt one of the two gender roles, but Hall was told to wear a mixture of male and female clothing. Unfortunately nothing about their life after the court case is known; nor exactly how the unusual ruling was intended. It could've been meant just as an attempt at humiliation; it could've been meant as some kind of compromise between a desire to maintain order and Hall's nature; or somewhere in between.
As much as Jim's life resembles that of Reed and Bonny, she also much resembles the exploits of Catalina de Erauso a Spanish Nun who fled to the New World and had a series of very colorful adventures as a conquistador, and was the first female autobiographer to live in the New World. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalina_de_Erauso. Her book is still inprint today.
On the use of "they," I really don't see any inaccuracy tbh. "They" is repeatedly used in tons of cases where the referent's gender is unknown/irrelevant all the way back in the 17th century and continuing all the way to this day. This, despite the repeated efforts of modern grammarians to insist that "they" shouldn't/can't be used as a 3rd person singular; and that we have to use awkward formulations like "one" or "He or she".
A thing I find quite interesting about Catalina de Erauso is also how both feminine and masculine terminations are used in the text, given that Spanish did not have a gender-neutral pronoun at the time, but they clearly found a way to navigate their relationships to gender. I love that he uses both, but at the same time will tell you about shouting death threats at someone who called them "madam" once.
I was about to mention the part about singular they as well! It was predominantly used in the English language all the way back to Middle English (predating the word "you" even) and only began to fall out of prominence in the 19th century as a result of first the rise of the distinct upper class British dialect today and standards in the US based upon those in the northeast of the country, both linked closely to the rise of nationalism and enforced broadly through centralized education teaching a "proper" version of English in the US and UK. So really, the idea that they is only a plural is a somewhat more modern conception.
Jsyk, you used "she" in the third paragraph when you meant "they"
Grammarians that know anything about history, I assure you, are quite happy to welcome back they/them as a third person gender irrelevant word, as it served diligently for a long time and now does again!
Heruline from 18th century France! Just to add my own two cents in.
ah yes, our flag means death, the show that prides itself on its historical accuracy, as its creator david "i read the first paragraph on wikipedia" jenkins would confirm
honestly the massive anachronisms are a huge part of the show's charm for me.
I think it’s kind of sweet that Jenkins was so oblivious to queer coding that he genuinely didn’t consider it a big deal at all and was so surprised. It was so casually, wonderfully queer and it didn’t make it a big thing, and I love that about it so much. Such a beautiful show. When they actually kissed, I was watching it on opening night at like 3 AM and my soul nearly left my body
David Jenkins absolutely was not "oblivious to queercoding". This is a misunderstanding of his comments about how he underestimated the impact queerbaiting could have.
Oops that was actually a typo, I meant queerbaiting not queer coding, and yep I was referring more to the negative effects of it
Hi Jessie, I'm a Latina woman, and I just want to point out that Jimenez is pronounced he-men-ez not jim-en-ez, and their name is Vico, not Vito
And Oluwande isnt the cook, Roach is the cook 😬
Ahh thank you. I’m never able to pronounce the names of anyone, not even my own family haha, so thank you ❤️❤️❤️
Its confusing just because they are referred to has Jim, so it links in your brain that it's pronounced Jim-en-ez, even though it should be he-men-ez
In fairness, one of the first times Jim's surname is mentioned, it's Lucious mangling it. If you're unfamiliar with Spanish language conventions I could see missing this one
I'm Spanish and agree, but I love of they were called Jim Jim enez, just call them Jim Jim
I really liked the note that the definitions of what "trans" is would have changed throughout history. If our society was 100% accepting of fluid gender expression, we likely wouldn't care to divide people by "trans" or "cis" identifiers because they'd be unnecessary, like we likely wouldn't care to define "man", "woman", or "nonbinary" in a society without assigned gender.
Also, one thing I think this video might miss out on is that while there are moments of pride in historical accuracy in the show, there's just as many moments where they wholeheartedly embrace the anachronisms. Ed and Mary's clothing, the way they speak, who and why certain people are around and together, etc. This show wants to tell a story of an idea of Stede Bonnet and Blackbeard, not what the story of the time was.
@@kaiyodei i guess we wouldn't need to define that either. You'd just check case by case if you're attracted to them.
That seem to be what Jessie was referring to when she quoted that stuff about what Native Americans used to think, when their gender categories were not as binary as those of the incoming colonisers.
I think you might like Imperial Radch Trilogy by Anne Leckie. Really cool discussion of social gender and labels.
I was so relieved it wasn’t queerbaiting.
my brain is so used to queerbaiting that halfway through the show, i was like "okay, let's finish the first season and then head to AO3 for some resolution on that relationship". when they kissed i was genuinely shocked. although to be honest i started to have my suspicions while watching lucius' reaction to the treasure hunt campfire conversation lol
@@kinesin8221 yeah, I did a double take at his reaction. Came into the show pretty cold so I really wasn't expecting much, not sure if that was scripted or improv but it was certainly relatable
I was the gay autistic pirate kid in school. I'm non-binary and having this show made me feel so seen in so many ways. Thank you for covering this, Jessie!! Amazing as always :)
oh
i cannot believe it, people make such a fuzz about they/them pronouns. and yet i didn't notice that they used they/them on Jim through the show. they feel like normal pronouns in the show because they are.
As a Puerto Rican. It’s great to see Vico Ortiz (who is Puerto Rican) be in a show that is getting great reactions. It’s just very rare to see Puerto Ricans in mainstream media let allow in an LBGTQ show. I’m so proud of them! 🇵🇷
I have a friend who's currently in finals for getting a BA in English including a very in depth study of grammar. According to them (and the rather extensive list of references in their paper) on the topic, the use of "they" is "ubiquitous to fill the place of a gender-neutral, sex-indefinite third person singular pronoun" as far back as the 14th century. They can't remember exactly when the generic masculine (using he in the aforementioned circumstance), but they think it was somewhere in the same time frame as many other attempts to impose an ordered grammar on English in the latter half of the 18th century.
So by that logic, it seems reasonable that a pirate would use they to refer to a person whose gender is not known or presumed, which could reasonably be extended to Jim.
Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
Singular they
Predates singular you.
I remember watching OFMD as the series aired, and I was really close to dropping it to be honest. I’m nonbinary, and when I saw Jim, I thought that they were going to be the same “woman dressing as a man to enter a male space but it says nothing about her gender identity and she gets a boyfriend because she’s definitely cishet”. Like, obviously clothes don’t equal gender, but after seeing the same story over and over again, I thought that Jim was just going to hurt me when I was already feeling invisible from being in the closet for so long. But then I continued watching and it slowly dawned on me that even though the words “trans” or “nonbinary” weren’t being used, they were very clearly being written with the trans experience in mind. But I still expected the show to disappoint me. I looked up their actor expecting to find a cis actor playing a nonbinary character but nope! Vico Ortiz is nonbinary.
Once I was finally able to let my guard down and stop expecting Jim to disappoint me, they became incredibly comforting to me. I’m still in the closet, and the stress surrounding that can be more or less intense depending on the situation, and March just so happened to be one of those bad months, so Jim was really important to me.
I hope we get more representation like Jim in the future, but they’re always going to hold a special place in my heart
yeah, as a binary trans guy I was fully expecting that to be the trope as soon as it was revealed Jim isn't a cis man, so even though I loved the show even from those first episodes, the idea that they were just gonna backtrack and make them a "woman in disguise" broke my heart just a little bit, especially the in between them being outed and then accepted for who they are. although I was hoping for some trans man specific representation (non-binary and transmasc representation I would say are on a somewhat even playing field of being left out of media, especially more specific media I'm interested in, like comedy) I was still really happy with non-binary rep and I'm really glad their character turned out the way it did. even though beyond gender identity into the realm of personality I don't extremely relate to Jim, I think it's been nice to see a character like them without trying to seem them through the lens of relating to them, as I tend to do with generally binary men characters I feel close in behaviour and thought to. I'm now realizing this response is really unnecessary and too long as my responses always are, but I'll put it out there. also I'm really sorry that March was hard for you, I hope things are getting better and will continue getting better in the grand scheme of things, in the meantime we'll have OFMD to be there for us when we need it. good luck to you out there :)
oh
I love how Jim's coming out scene isn't treated as this huge plot point, they just say "yo I'm still the same person so treat me the same as you used to" and that was that. I love that and I also love that you brought a trans guy on to talk about what Jim means to us!
As a non-binary person, I loved the way that Jim was represented. Not as something fake or as a person who needed to perform their non-binary identity 'correctly' in order for the crew to take them seriously.
Once again, another phenomenal video Jessie. Thank you.
"Who goes to South Carolina?" Anne Bonney was from South Carolina. So, I am guessing, she was staying close to family. Besides, South Carolina was a hub for pirates to sell their loot. Living in that then colony meant she could keep one foot on land with her blood family and one foot in the sea with her pirate life. The best of both worlds.
As a queer latine, I just LOVED what Vico said about Jim's portrayal! It's amazing to see more nonbinary rep that isn't aliens or sentient objects lmao Much love to you Jessie, thanks for always bringing us so much valuable content.
So thrilled to have been part of this! Thanks, Jessie! 💙
I'm so excited to see where this show goes, and how Vico Ortiz's career develops from here. The love and support they've received has been so wonderful to see.
Vico Ortiz rules so much. such a great energy on screen
Really great segment. Have you watched The Harder They Fall on Netflix? That features a trans masc character named Cuffee who is based on a real life person and I'm curious to see how trans men/trans masc people view the character. Especially since he's played by a cis woman.
So good seeing you in this vid Finn! You look amazing btw ^_^
And yes my goodness I can't wait to see where Vico Ortiz goes from here, along with everyone else on this show because there's so many fresh new faces who are getting a chance to do something awesome and meaningful
As a nonbinary person, the idea of genders as sets of societal expectations that one feels more or less inclined to fit into based on a mixture of biology, historical context and personal preferences was really, REALLY helpful to me.
One of the concepts that disappoints/fascinates me the most is that of gender, which apparently has no definition but it's central to every known society in some way. This video finally gave me a definition that's good enough to keep at the back of my mind but with enough gray areas to be elaborated upon. Words cannot express how at peace I am right now ♥️
P.S - I have been planning to watch OFMD as soon as I saw video titles describing it as a "gay pirate show". After today, I most definitely will watch it, even if I have to pirate it, pun intended.
@@kaiyodei Have you watched Lily Alexandre's "Millions of Dead Genders"? That video (one of the best gender-related ones I've ever watched) helped me empathize a lot more with xenogender people. ContraPoints' "Transtrenders" was also a huge help.
The TL; DR for what I've learned from both videos is basically that:
1) the xenogender population may be, for the most part, composed of the following types of people:
* Children/teens/YAs that are gender-questioning and get kinda overexcited by the idea;
*Nonbinary people who, for a variety of reasons, find certain images and metaphors so relatable that they choose to use them as their genders.
2) Even though some of them can be very cringe on social media, at the end of the day they are not hurting anyone, so why waste precious time and energy thinking about them? Humans do weird stuff all the time.
@@kaiyodei Sadly, the only practical way to engage in online discourses on the validity of xenogender identities without being bashed is not engaging in them at all, focusing your time on learning about more important gender-related issues (e.g anti-trans laws).
Imo, discussing the historicity or the validity of xenogender identities (which are, at best, a tiny subset of the trans community) will never take anyone anywhere, except for historians, anthropologists and other scholars who, for whatever reason, decide to write a serious academic study about the xeno community.
Disclaimer: I'm NOT criticizing you for engaging in discussions about xenogender people, just saying that, for the sake of your own patience, you should avoid it as much as you can, if you can't help doing it.
Edit: if you want to make a story featuring catgender characters, you could just make anime-style catpeople reply stuff like "I'm just a cat, nyan" when asked questions about their genders. Another possibility would be assigning different types of catgender to different breeds of cats. Each breed would be expected to behave in different ways or be better at different things (e.g black cats, known in-universe as "familiars", would be trained to do magic and work for witches. There could be cis familiar and transfamiliar cats, i.e non-black cats who did magic and worked for witches).
As for the blizzgender folks, you could create different types of ice elementals (anthropomorphic or not), each with different AGABs: Blizzard, Hail, Diamond (as in Diamond Dust), Frost, Snow... each gender trained to do different types of ice magic and/or to look a certain way.
You might've just been being ironic about creating xenogender characters, but I'm Autistic and thus sometimes don't get when people are joking or being ironic, especially if they're talking via text 😅
@@enbyarchmage hi, a fellow autistic enby here, and I want to add my two cents on xenogenders (and their "questionable validity") too. This comment isn't necessarily aimed at you, but in general (and a little bit @kaiyodei) to help people understand the phenomenon more.
I probably could be considered myself under the xenogender label (although I don't personally use it), because I really go "mood" and get gender envy whenever I see something monstrous but vaguely humanoid and feminine, think a typically feminine body but horns and fangs and claws and wings and unusual skin color and maybe an extra pair of eyes and such, you look at it like "a woman? ish? actually I don't know if I can call this a woman as it's not really even human so applying human concepts of gender to this seems kind of redundant", and like that's a mood, I want to be seen with very vague feminine qualities but ultimately not even quite human enough to be assigned a human concept of gender, if I could look any way I want, I'd go for something kinda demonic like that because that would just feel the most inviting and comfortable to me.
In my personal experience, very few people feel like they *actually* literally are for example animals, they just feel a really close connection to them and like it as something for other people to consider them as, not all that different than trans people with binary genders if you think about it, you can just really vibe with the idea of the societal roles and expectations of an animal or some fictive monster instead of the "opposite" to your assigned gender. I don't think there should even be arguing that "that's invalid" as it's literally quite a common non-binary experience to feel like your gender just doesn't fit neatly into "man" or "woman" or "both" or "no gender" but is something above those limitations altogether, even if many don't actually label something non-human they may kinda vibe with as their gender.
It's also worth noting that even binary and cis-people have their own microgenders of sorts, like there isn't just "girls and boys" but a whole microcosmos of subcategories that are technically of the same gender but also a subset of the gender in a way, personally I'd raise "tomboy girls" as a very obvious example, some girls just like looking and/or acting quite boyish but can still be 100% girls, but could also be labeled their own microgender as their gender expression etc is slightly different to many other girls. Many could identify themselves as not just girls but as "horse girls" because they feel like liking horses is such an integral part of their identity, almost likeneable to a gender, not to mention so many aesthetic labels like being not just any girl but specifically a "goth girl" etc. Non-binary people doing their own versions of this shouldn't be all that much stranger, we just like to identify with something we feel a strong connection to and that somehow feels like it reflects us in an important way, and attach it to ourselves as a gender label.
@@kaiyodei Even though I'm confused about whether you're being serious or not, I'm sensing some heavy sarcasm in here 😂
P.S
I would indeed love if there were a (well-written) transgender/nonbinary Autistic character in a major TV show. Idk how a well-written xenogender character would be like...
Using the example you provided, they'd probably like horses so much that they'd dress in horse-themed clothing and choose a horse-themed name for themselves (like Tenma, which means Pegasus in Japanese). Other than that, idk how one could create a horsegender character that would be, at the same time, quirky, realistic and relatable.
@@hillomunkkiseni Wow, I loved your ideas! 😍
Love this review and I'm obsessed with this show! My one little quibble is that I don't think they're committed to historical accuracy at all. Olu literally wears Crocs. Historicity is something they play fast and loose with. Blackbeard's costume alone is so historically inaccurate. Of course, you may have been saying that tongue in cheek and I'm too dense to miss it 😋
I mean yeah, but come on it’s great
@@baronblackdragon9078 of course! I actually love that about the show. It was more feedback for Jessie. It’s like when I rewatched The Tudors, not historically accurate, but more history in it than I remember!
Ya and that s not blackbeards flag either. There is a LOT of historical fiction fo sho- which is most of what we know about these pirates anyways ( written as sensational stories after their deaths)
@@sperry8399 I actually think it’s a strength of the show that they don’t feel confined by history. Makes it so much better and a thing of it’s own.
I do some historical costuming, and they did some *really* clever things with Blackbeard/Ed's costume. Like he wears what looks like a one-sleeved biker jacket, but it only uses materials and fastenings that would have been around in the 1700's. No zippers, just buttons with leather loops, and some cool metal buckles. The shark tooth on the shoulder is a nice touch, too. Those costumers were having a lot of fun!
My dad is one of the "trans people are a fad" people and it gets exhausting to listen to; I'm glad you make these videos on queer history and modern events
oh my god, this outfit. it looks so good. and the cute little hat. you look amazing, i'm kind of hoping for more pirate content just so you can bust out that outfit again lol
edit: and the earring! so cute!
RIGHT???
She's got the perfect outfit for every dang video.
To me I got in many ways a larger message from our flag. To me(Cis white male, straightish) the show was principally about being your authentic self. Whatever others think of that. I think that is the true heroism of Stede Bonnet is his willingness to be who he wants to be regardless of what people think of it. That is I think what fascinates Blackbeard, who didn't have that courage to face ridicule until meeting Bonnet. One of the most interesting things was that the show at first presents Bonnet as just this ridiculous character and after a few episodes it becomes clear that he's actually heroic and the most courageous character.
One aspect that I think what makes Our Flag means Death so good is that it conveys that larger message through characters who are often literally "queer" in one way or another. It shows the wider issues of the conflict between being your most authentic self and social expectations which everyone should be able to relate to and uses characters who typically wouldn't be given the protagonist roles unless the show was just about their journey of self-discovery.
As a transmasc who is trying to find their path in life in a country that barely recognises trans men and women much less non-binary individuals seeing Jim is incredibly important. I have always first experienced the world through stories, learning about people and their experience, and discovering myself through them.
So seeing a strory telling me "See? This always existed, you are not abnormal, confused or invisible. There were, are and will be others like you, I see you" is something I cannot help but feel incredibly grateful for.
And it gives me hope that one day I can be seen as well
David Jenkins: "We didn't set out to make a gay-pirate show"
Everyone: "The gay-pirate show!"
I want to add that while many aspects of the show are extremely historically accurate, much of the dialogue uses quite modern lingo. Pirates (even gentleman ones) didn’t actually call parts of their closets the “autumn vibes” section. This is a modern figure of speech. So if people are taking issue specifically with the fact that Jim is eventually referred to as gender neutral pronouns when that isn’t strictly accurate, they’d better take issue with like… a good portion of word choices employed by the characters as well.
Okay, Jessie, I like your content a lot but the segment on Anne Bonny and Mary Read, well there's a lot of problems. I'm going to make this as constructive as I can and link several sources from a registered pirate historian and a pultizer nominated journalist. There's also an amazing book on the historiography of pirate identity called Treasure Neverland that has a full chapter on female piracy, this is mostly by memory.
Most of the history of piracy, specifically Anne and Mary, comes from a 1724 book called The General History of the Pyrates, published by an unknown author, although often assumed to be a newspaper printer named Nathaniel Mist. Its where a lot of stories about people like Bartholomew Roberts and Blackbeard comes from. It absolutely isn't trustworthy, a lot of claims cannot be fact checked and when they can be, it never matches. Anne and Mary are the worst of the bunch in this regard, almost everything is fictionalized. Annes chapter in the book is mostly a comical farce about lost spoons that leads to her birth for example, its not a historical document.
A lot of other details about Anne and Mary come from a 1960s romance novel called Mistress of the Seas, point is, little is truly known.
What we do know is that in August 1720, John Rackam stole a sloop from Nassau and onboard were Anne and Mary. They never hid there gender, governor Woode Rogers put out a proclamation days later mentioning them. It was less a grand adventure and more a small pirate vessel of about 15 people attacking fishermen and small schooners. They raided for two months before being caught by Jonathan Barnet in what amounted to a ship fight that lasted for seconds. Rackam fired one swivel shot and Barnet delivered a volley that knocked down the mast, everyone surrendered instantly.
At the trial Anne and Mary admitted to be spinsters of New Providence Island IE were never married, witnesses claimed they were active members of the crew and wore sailors garb while attacking a ship, and wore womens clothing when off duty. Nobody was killed during this two month spree, although Anne really wanted to kill a woman named Dorothy Thomas but got overuled. Anne never said anything sarcastic during the trial or battle, she actually said very little. They were both sentenced to death but were not executed due to the pregnancy that part is real.
Mary Read did die in prison around late April 1721, Anne vanished from all records leading to years of speculation, Tamara Eastman in 2000 for a book titled the Trial of Anne Bonny and Mary Read, claimed Anne lived until 1789, although that's partially taking from Mistress of the Seas, also her claim was based on documentation she never produced and later admitted was not real.
Two years back I found documentation that hints Anne died in Jamaica around 1733, but that's not definitely either I'll confess.
So what's real? Anne and Mary were real people who were pirates for two months, they came from Nassau and weren't married. They might have been prostitutes judging by Woodes Rogers trying to root out sex workers in early 1720 and the large influx of them in the late 1710s. There was never any proof they cross dressed to hide identity, it seems to have purely for practical reasons during boarding action. We don't know where they were born or looked like or ages. The name Anne Bonny isn't particularly Irish and the trial transcript even calls her Ann Fulford and Ann Bonn so even the name is somewhat in doubt
Again I don't mean to be cruel or angry or anything I respect your work a lot. I'm trans and I love having someone like you around. But pirate history is my area of expertise, I've studied it for years. Its a really hard subject to get right. PS that last source involves me but its before transition, wish I could change the pronouns and photo but oh well.
www.postandcourier.com/news/the-true-and-false-stories-of-anne-bonny-pirate-woman-of-the-caribbean/article_e7fc1e2c-101d-11e8-90b7-9fdf20ba62f8.html
csphistorical.com/2016/05/08/anne-bonny-and-mary-read-female-pirates-and-maritime-women-page-one/
www.postandcourier.com/news/a-22-year-old-youtuber-may-have-solved-anne-bonny-pirate-mystery-300-years-after/article_78fc0a2e-2914-11eb-a5f5-03b65f4d281a.html
Thank you! Those were a really interesting (if sometimes bleak) read.
@@lyndonwesthaven6623 No problem. Piracy is never dull if you dig deep enough into documentation. It just rarely lines up with any popular understanding.
I don't think Our Flag means Death is very historically accurate, but it's deliberately not trying to be that and I think that makes it even more enjoyable.
What i personally like most about jims outing is that, while their portrayal of the nonbinary experience is modern, in universe it could still reasonably have been come up with by the crew imo. Like:
Jim explains they are not really a man anymore but not a woman either and the crew would been like, "but what do we call jim noiw when he and she dont work?" and lucius or stede mention that in written word, they can be used as a neutral pronoun.
Generally the show does a lot of these things where something has no proof of existing in that time, but it also theoretically can't be disproven that people could come up with it.
I was pretty happy they actually went this way. I was worried they would just leave it as subtext.
I love the show and hope there'll be a second season! It's been quite successful. A correction, though: By no means does this show "pride itself in historical accuracy"! I mean, they use modern lingo right from the start, Stede reads stories that had not been written yet to the crew, his wife/ widow basically invents cubism, and so on.
also blackbeard's mad max outfit, lol. i think it's more accurate to say that the creators/wardrobe/etc. did their research and then deliberately added anachronistic elements for comedic/dramatic effect.
"our flag means death prides itself on historical accuracy" you mean the show where blackbeard shops at pirate h&m, scurvy is treated with oranges 40 years before vitamin c was discovered, and a woman invents cubism 200 years early?
Excuse you, Blackbeard beat Mad Max in a card game and took his outfit as payment. /s
Wonderful video. I adore Jim, and I adore the fact that everyone just rolled with everything (yeah there were some questions initially but once those were out of the way Jim could just be Jim).
Also Charleston! Never been but I know of many people who have and whatever is there apparently is amazing
really loved the casual "they/them" pronouns and gender-neutral nouns, especially from Selenis Leyva's character (the nun)
It has nice architecture.
it’s very pretty :)
plus a port city so makes sense for a pirate!
13:13 "OFMD- a show that prides itself on historical accuracy" was this sarcastic? I couldn't tell:D
Also, I was thinking about Izzy, when Finntastic Mr. Fox was talking about how easy it is for a transmasculine person to fall into paterns of toxic masculinity. Izzy's relationship with gender performance is so interesting. How he pushes himself and others to upkeep this masculine image and despises Stede's and Luciu's (and later on Ed's) ability to be comfortable with their own version of masculinity.
P.s. Wonderful video, Jessie:))
I love this much quoted tweet about Izzy: "Izzy invented homophobia so he could internalize it."
I think that says it all!
I know we as a society have a LONG way to go, but it melts my heart to see Jim and the rest of the characters breaking down harmful stigmas. I hope for a world where everyone can see how awesome you are without any preconceptions.
Love this video, but it did make me laugh a little. Ah yes, that historical 'accuracy' it prides itself on... Oluwande's crocs... 1717 being a leap year... the liver being on the left below your ribcage... very accurate! 😅 (This is said very affectionately, because I actually love how blasé they are in regards to period accuracy and basic facts in any number of fields (really adds to the comedy), and I agree with your point Jessie that anachronisms can bring a mirror up to our society today. But it is funny seeing people say that the show is dedicated to accuracy when there's so many places where they clearly don't care about it at all! Also I'm pretty sure David Jenkins has said they're going to diverge from history in the way the story ends, because it doesn't end well irl and they want the show to have a more uplifting ending. So yeah, the amount of details that are actually true is surprising, but that's all the more so because the rest of it is just so not!)
Yes I imagine the ending where Stede Bonnet gets dragged kicking and screaming to the gallows weeks after Blackbeard was shot 5 times and stabbed 20 times wouldn't be the most appealing finale.
Was so psyched for this vid and it was awesome.
What a beautiful analysis of Jim's journey- I was initially so confused when they didn't take up their "destiny"/revenge arc and went for overcoming trauma.
Thank you for talking about the incorrect beliefs about the historical ideas about gender roles/queer history.
Because it erases the reality that gender has always been a fluid journey. It is a whitewashing/cishet washing of history that is so ridiculous if you think about it for one minute.
Like DeBeauvoir claiming women were ALWAYS oppressed - it s just ignoring so many cultures and ideas of gender that have existed throughout history.
Much love and can't wait for season 2 either. I miss Lucious 😢
I mean, in most major patriarchal cultures, women *have* been seriously oppressed through most of human history, if not outright property, but that also doesn't change the fact that most cultures were far more fluid about gender than Christian Europe, as well. Both can be true at the same time.
I know this came out about 4 months ago, so you probably won't see this, but as a newly realized trans-femme enby, this video, and most of what you've made that I've watched so far, is extremely touching and makes me feel very seen. I'm commenting here, due to the fact that I am currently at work, where I work as a dock person for a logistics company and listening to this currently hase bawling my eyes out...
This platform absolutely needed your video on this because not enough people are talking about Jim / nonbinary / trans masc representation.
Surprised that no-one’s mentioned Black Sails in a video about gay pirates. Highly recommended and underrated show!
I found it surprising and actually relieving when they kissed and it turned out not to be queerbaiting! Also - showing Steed's wife living her best Widow Life and the enby adventures of Jim - it was like taking my shoes off after a long day. Damn it representation feels so good. Always love your stuff, Jessie ♥
I was so incredibly relieved by how they managed the conversation between Stede and Mary. They avoided the common tropes-rejection, implication of lying, "that explains a lot"-and just gave us something really heartfelt. Mary is a queen and I love her.
@@kashiichan Its extremely refreshing in that scene that Mary is just happy for Stede in that moment. We see Mary so often in the show in flashbacks where she seems to disdain him/his behavior and yet when they talk about things for the most part when Stede comes back theres just such an openness between them (well especially after she didnt kill him) and supporting each other. I really enjoy how when this show has to include comments that show homophobia or racism that they dont lean into trauma violence or other stuff like so many period movies/shows do for "accuracy" or to make non-marginalized people sympathize w/a character (and usually make jokes at the commentors expense-like Olu and Frenchie swindling the aristocrats and it being a reference to pyramid schemes.)
I love that all my favourite RUclipsrs are talking about this show! I was looking forward to knowing Jessie's opinion about it, because I enjoyed OFMD so much.
LOVED this video!!! this is the first time i found out vico cortez is irl nonbinary, and as a latine nonbinary irl...it has made me more happy than i can say :,) thanks jessie!
Interestingly enough, I remember reading, a few centuries earlier than the show is set they/them pronouns were more commonly used as a third person pronoun, granted not as a way of showing gender but as the familiar form of third person pronoun for all genders with he or she being used for someone you didn't know or were expected to show deference to (with the exception of God where the familial form would be used and quite often this was extended to those in religious orders as a mark of Godliness) similar to how in the second person 'thee' was for familiars and 'you' was the polite form. However there was a shift in the 1500s (scholarship is divided on whether the Reformation caused it, personally I'm on the no side since the second person form which was also dropped from formal English around the same time was not used religiously) whereby in formal English thee was dropped and you became the second person form for everyone and they became the third person plural although the phase out of singular they familiar wasn't complete as far as we can tell until the 18th century (and with how little of ordinary speech was recorded until the mid-19th century perhaps it never did completely phase out) and singular they was also used for a time as a way to denote a social inferior (sometimes used to refer to enslaved persons, servants, working class people, indentured servants etc.).
Anyway, hope this history was interesting and hope you'll have a nice day.
Yep that's definitely correct. Grammarians have been trying to stop "they" being a third person singular gender indeterminate pronoun since their have been grammarians. In the 17th century "they" is used in this way; even more modernly. I still remember in school having "they" being corrected to "He or she" or "One" by my teachers.
Tons of writers used "they" as a singular pronoun from the 16th century through the 20th centuries such as Shakespeare, Dickens, Christie, etc.
I wonder how "thee" and "you" ended up the opposite way round to "Sie" and "du", wrt formal and informal.
@@Seal0626 I'm not entirely sure, perhaps it's unknown, it might be Scandinavian influence (similar to how English settled on 'egg' after a few centuries of the South using Erin (from the Germanic) and the North used Eggis (from the Norse)) and since 1000 years ago English and Swedish were mutually intelligible I wonder if it was the other way round in Old Norse and English took the Nordic path at some point.
@@phillipmessier4371 I wonder why grammarians have been (in a majority of cases historically and so often in the present) pushing back against singular they.
So, the familiar vs deferential split applied to the second person, but not to the third person. With third person, it was (as Phillip mentions) about specific vs hypothetical/indeterminate. But as a linguist I have definitely used the second person evolution as an example of how something that is "plural" in form can also be applied to singular referents and then shift meaning *again* after that!
Hey Jessie just a heads up the image you put up as an example of chinese women pirates is not chinese, that's an indigenous Ainu person from japan.
The image is one falsely attributed online to be Ching Shih.
The way this show very specifically utilizes its anachronisms to be as deliberate in representation was definitely one of the things i love about both Jim's story as well as the show overall. This vid is amazing. ♡♡♡ thank you for making it.
I don’t have HBOMax, so I can’t watch the show, but I’m loving all the discussions around it. Also love your and Finn’s outfits for the video!
There's always a way!
I'm so glad this series exist! And that it just threw itself fearlessly into the mainstream spotlight. I do think it's a shame that so much of trans and nonbinary history is buried and kept out of the mainstream media; it's always been there, but there will always be 'those people' who try to downplay it. I'm a writer, and one day I'd love to find a way to include an homage to the French novelist and poet George Sand, a highly talented and sassy AFAB who, for most of her life, dressed as a man 'without a permit' (because yes, back in those days women *needed to apply for permits* if they wanted to publicly dress in men's clothes) and took both men and women as lovers.
I studied Anne Bonny and Mary Read’s history (via Wikipedia) years ago, and one thing I thought was a funny tid bit was how Mary only revealed her secret to Anne after Anne kept on pursuing her, thinking she was another handsome man on ship. Calico Jack, Anne’s lover, got extremely jealous, so Mary had to out herself to him in order to save her life. Thought it would make for a fun Yuri manga.
9:40: Mind you, you've Gráinne Mhaoil in Ireland and Ching Shih in China. Gráinne Mhaoil is kind of a big deal were I'm from in the North West as a symbol of three things: skill in politics, eruditeness (just as we were being portrayed as savages), and skill as an admiral. She was a general badass, and not as well known as she should be outside of Ireland.
19:00 - I'd say this is more general: queerness as a broader tent is to a degree defined by the older meaning of "queer" as odd, different, unexpected. As soon as you become "normal, expected", you stop being queer. Instead, you're accepted without question and thus in no way "queer". Which is one of the problems that I have with the "f*ck you, I've got mine" school: if they were at any moment to have their status drop the popularly "negative" parts of their identity would come of the surface for others. Intersectionalism isn't just for the people who get the bad end of the stick in life, and no matter how privileged any of us are in some way, we should act to eliminate that privilege and thus its reciprocal disadvantage.
I guess I'm saying we could all be kinder.
I’m nonbinary myself and this is wonderful, I’m so so happy with this representation, it helped me come to terms with my own gender identity, which I’ve always struggled with since I realised that people were obsessed with this thing called “gender” (I’m autistic and was blissfully unaware of social constructs like gender roles until I was around 12 or 13). Jim should have their top surgery if they want to, and it’s just beautiful that the fandom made Vito feel safe to do something that they desired to do. I don’t trust Roach to do their surgery though, with his “knives are knives. Meat is meat” thing. Jim, please have someone else do it for you because I worry, honey. /j
I started watching the show a while back but university hit so i couldn't watch far. Seeing all this in a show i liked much is really heartwarming to my little enby bi heart haha
Edit: i watched the full thing back and forth at least 3 times by now and im obsessed and i am ready to bully hbo into renewing for the next season (and for like a couple more haha)
this is off topic but I remember how in the video game "Dreamfall Chapters" one of the male protagonists was talking about his sexual orientation (how he is attracted to men, and not using the label "gay" cuz it didn't fit in the lore/universe of the game ) but since he could kiss a woman (depends on player choice) some ppl didn't really believed it or fully understood it so later in the game the writers wrote him expletive saying that he is gay in a funny banter
jessie - great video, and i loved "our flag means death" also. but for pity's sake, _don't_ get scurvy on the high seas! eat an orange 🍊, or a grapefruit, or some sort of citrus. please.
Me as a kid: "haha scurvy is a stupid disease"
Me as an adult: "scurvy is terrifying and I will go out of my way to make sure it never ever happens to me or anyone I care about"
Jim made me understand the phrase "i feel seen" in a way I never have before. I was so sensitive to how the other characters treated them, and the kindness and respect that they received made me feel so embraced.
Bullying creators into watching OMFD is the only acceptable form of bullying
Really well formulated and thoughtfull video! Agree about the importance of representation that makes the identity a big part of the character but also lets them do other stuff. I feel like we so often get either characters are only allowed to be "the gay best friend" and never do their own thing, or characters who come out in one episode and it's never mentioned again. This felt like a nice balance.
I was curious about this show when I first saw it. But admittedly, it was because of La'Ron's video here on RUclips that pushed me to see it, before his discussion!
I have since seen many cover this, and have recommended it as much as I can c:
That last episode though :(
hell yeah, love seeing other La'Ron Readus fans in the wild!
It was good to hear "Latine" used in context. I'm cis and white, so I really don't get a say, but none of the Hispanics I know use Latinx, including my wife. It doesn't fit neatly into the language. There is a good video by Bad Empanada explaining that while it is MOSTLY used by white Americans, it is used somewhat among native speakers. But Latine is a much more common gender neutral term among native speakers as it fits naturally as an addition to the existing language.
Thank you for pronouncing his Taika's name correctly! I love this show, it's so nice to see enby representation done so well in a big show like OFMD.
I've not seen this series yet and your analysis of Jim's character makes me want to see it even more. Personally I have no problem with shows and films not being strictly historical accurate as long they try capture the look and feel of the historical period. One of my favourite films The Knight's Tale revels in its anachronisms.
Another enby here to praise Jim. I am out, people know I am enby, I have provided my workplace with resources and even did a presentation on non-binary identities, and I still get misgendered every damn day. To see Jim’s aunt so effortlessly use they/them, to show their identity as so normalised and understood, made me cry.
If more media had this representation, I think it would be a lot easier for people to understand, to just get used to it without us having to do all the correcting and educating all the time
I’m so so so so so so so so excited for the next season when it hopefully does come out. IM SO GLAD YOURE MAKING A VIDEO ON ITTTT!
The fact that the text was earnest was so refreshing. It's amazing how much showing normalised healthy behaviour can help model it.
Holy crap!
So, this is the gay pirate show!
I've struggled for half a century to tolerate pirate movies, but they were so toxic masculine.
This sounds like what I've needed but didn't know was possible.
Very smart video, Jessie.
You get better every day.
I think they didn’t do the blasting of “THERES GONNA BE QUEER CHARACTERS IN THIS SHOW” bc they figured we’d already be into a show about pirates
while i love this video the "show that prides itself in historical accuracy" description couldnt be further from the truth lmao. theres a thread of all the little inaccuracies starting with 1717 not being a leap year and stede talking about a moth that hasnt been discovered yet and ending with olus crocs.
Thank you for the shout out to Finn! He has such an amazing presence. Subbed!
Thanks so much from another masc-leaning afab enby for this video about my favourite knife slinging non-binary pirate! You hit on a lot of the ways that people around me have been making my transition more difficult than it needs to be, and how great the rep on OFMD has been for us. If my family could be half as cool about things as the crew of the Revenge, life would be smooth sailing indeed. As is, in spite of some painful chronic illness, I'm ready to take up my old hobby of knife throwing again... (Yeah, I really did. Used a pic of George W Bush nailed to the wall of the shed for target practice back in the day, before I messed up my shoulder. 😉)
My spouse was listening over my shoulder while I watched this and would like to recommend you Charlie Jane Anders' and Becky Chambers' works, if you haven't read them. They said they were really impressed with the settings, in which many gender expressions exist and are simply accepted.
"Subscribe or I'll be comin' for your booty" caught me off guard and had me bustin' a gut. Good one XD
I wholeheartedly agree with the fact that we, people like we, have always existed, not with the same definitions, not with the same sense of being a we, but as people who did transgress gender norms and lived outside of the gender binary most often set by sex.
I think we need more visibility on that. When people take a historical figure that was queer and they assume they are cis - are they not projecting a whole set of preconceptions about gender as well on those figures? By always claiming we can't say people in the past were trans or non-binary, they don't really mean "it wasn't the same back then", what they mean is "you don't really exist". They draw a line between us as the product of a capitalist modern society and gender fluidity in the past, and while of course, what we are can only be the product of our current society - so are they. But it gets so unequal in who is subjected to discussion.
So I feel it's a good practice to allow ourselves to enlarge the meaning of transgender and/or non-binary to other time periods, and not just for how those phenomenon manifest today, because ways of living existed without a word to express them. And maybe there were various words, in various cultures, but they would not be kept by the dominant culture that got passed to us, because margins and transgressions are not something power is keen to register or use...
I expect this to get rambly so I beg your indulgence.
Jessie, I am so glad I found your channel and am so very grateful for your insights, explanations, and perspectives. I'm a cis het man who struggles to understand what it is to be "transgender". I don't even know if that sentence makes sense to anybody but myself. Never-the-less I want my fellow humans to be happy. To be free to simply be themselves. To be able to live and not just survive. I know that I do not understand and that because I do not understand, and my cultural conditioning, I question and analyze and (radical transparency here) judge whether I feel the individual "passes" or not (though I try to keep it inside of "I wish their transition was easier for them").
I want my internal mental responses to fully match my external behavioral actions and choices. Externally I am always, "they are being the way they want to be. Doesn't make a difference to me or my life if they want to wear dresses, or have a beard, or change their name, or have long hair, or do everything all at once". Internally there is so often a part of me that goes, "I don't understand why they are wanting that". (really trying to avoid the word 'choice' because while there is a choice it's a choice of pursuing your authentic self or trying to conform to society rather than one of what you want to be.) I want to align internal and external responses. I'm trying to get them aligned.
I guess I'm using your channel as a brain rinsing agent (as opposed to brain washing). I am using repeated exposure to lgtba+ experiences and concepts as a way to train my brain to accept them as different than my own but not weird or incomprehensible but simply another way that people ARE.
Ironically I've always felt I was an "atypical man" who doesn't like sports or competition or cars or any of the typical man things (though I'm a gamer nerd so I'm not too far out of the current "masculine realm" 8) and am neurodivergent so have always felt like an outsider. Somehow that doesn't help me truly grok the outsider experience that comes from being lgtba+
That being said, I don't have to have a deep and fundamental understanding to be an ally or to welcome you into our shared societal spaces. I just have to listen, learn from what I hear, and work to make my corner of the world enthusiastically accepting of the wonderful diversity that exists within this human family of ours.
again, I'm so glad I found your channel, and thank you.
p.s. I enjoy your patreon songs. They are silly and weird but so good.
How does this woman not have more subscribers? Top notch scripts.
14:00 I'll keep saying this until I die of old age, everyone should just wear eyeliner literally all the time, it's so good!
Jim is my favorite character on the show. Finding out that the actor was so inspired by the fans and their art was amazing.
13:00 - they/them as been a thing since at least Shakespeare, and likely long before. The problem is the weird fixation that some have had on making English fit into a Latin mould, when it's both a Germanic language and a weirdass one at that.
I also think it’s very important to have a nonbinary character who isn’t extremely focused on educating the rest of the characters (and therefore the audience) on nonbinary issues. I loved seeing Jim demand respect as a human, but never truly care what they were called. They had more important things to do than try to correct people every time they called them a woman. As a blue collar nonbinary person in a male dominated field, I could definitely relate.
18:31
When you said this I laughed out loud because I'm in an improv troupe with a kid named Wren (who's trans) (he's my Starkid brother) and one day, we were playing this game where all the seniors had a word or action that describes them, and Wren's thing was literally just shouting "SOCIALISM"
I usually try to wait untill a show has at least 2 or 3 seasons, but I've been hearing so many good things about this one, I guess it has to move over to the exceptions list.
I might have 130 tabs open, you're in 5 of them, this is one of the first sponsors that hasn't made me want to throw something the moment they were brought up.
It's so wholesome that Vito got the courage to get their top-surgery done because of fan art.
19:40: or another thing: beer. Brewing was traditionally something that women mostly did, hence the surname "brewster". Men only got involved (outside of monasteries) when there was serious profit, which coincided, which also loosely coincided with the rise of protestantism. Because hops, which had a bunch of advantages as an additive, including making it easier to make beers that travel.
I have not been able to see this series (one more streaming thing I can't afford) BUT this was refreshing to see this look at it!
I've shared this video on my FB, my friends and I are doing a small "book carnival" which theme is mermaids and pirates, with our focus being on diversity (neurodiversity, color, size, shape, gender, whatever)... this video just resonates! Your insights are awesome, keep it up! I came for the Trek, I stayed for the rest!
I love Taika Waititi, and it's great to see him doing this. I've guest sailed on a few "pirate ships", and I recommend the experience to everyone. History is interesting, but how it relates to where we are now is the real treasure.
Assateague Island VA has two wild ponies named Anne Bonny and Mary Reade... they are favs of mine.
"What if what makes Ed happy...is Stede?"
SWOON
SWOON
SWOON
SWOON
SWOON
(Also, have you seen Reservation Dogs? I'm like a third of the way in and it's really good. Sad but also funny but also sad in line with Hunt for the Wilderpeople and JoJo Rabbit.)
Ahhhhhh, yesssss, the gay pirates show, I have been completely obsessed with it for the last few weeks, and I'm so happy to see your video about it, and especially about my favourite character!
I really appreciate the self-recorded VOs that you pitch shift to sound like different people! As a sound designer they bring me a lot of joy ❤
What was said contrasting the don't say gay bill and our flag means death was so poetic, beautiful and tragic that it made me shed tears. It's tragic that something that should be easy and simple is a culture political war and real people are getting needlessly hurt, but it's inspiring to have our flag means death. Makes me hopeful
thank you for this particular focus regarding OFMD. i even fwded it with a
Singular they/them is probably more historically accurate at the time, he/him as assumed was much later in the 18th century and even then it started in the aristocracy and would have taken a long time to filter down. He/Her and It (aside, originally He/Heo and Hit) did exist, but where more formal than singular they, so it'd likely pirates would refer to everyone as they/them... which obviously doesn't happen in the show, but also they were taught a bit by an aristocrat so I guess there's arguments to be made...
I’m not sure if this has been said before, and it’s not around the same era, but Jim reminded me of Amelio Robles Ávila, a colonel during the Mexican Revolution and a trans man. There were some women who helped during the war called “soldaderas” or “Adelitas”, some dressed as men as well to protect themselves from the misogyny. But Amelio, while assigned female at birth, he joined the revolution dressed as a man and continued his life as a man. In 1970 he was even officially listed as a veterano, which is just male veteran, his family accepted his identity and a known anecdote from one of his neighbors tells that if anyone would call him “Doña” (ma’am) he would threaten them with a pistol, which I just find badass.
I'm going to a pirate festival tomorrow and this couldn't have come at a better time. Thank you, from a nonbinary transmasc pirate
I'm so glad you made a video on this! This was so thoughtful and perfectly worded, as usual. This show has meant so much to me as a queer poc, and I'm overjoyed at the love it's getting! Also, you make a great pirate! :D
Found you and this video on nebula, and I'm and instant subscriber. Thank you for making this enbys day and can't wait to dive into all your content, and Our Flag Means Death! ❤️
One note that I appreciate; the acknowledgement that the expectations of manhood have also been oppressive themselves. That is central to both Stede and Ed, but no one names it as a cause of trauma and dissuasion to healthy lives, despite it being central to their characters…