Also, another important thing that is always nice to remember even if it has only tangentially to do with this: Everything someone dislikes also has fans who absoloutly love it. And that has nothing to do with watching something not critically. Sometimes different people come away from the same show and have two very different experiences. To asume that everyone either has the same experience with art or has to be wrong can lead to a lot of this toxic behavior.
I had the best interaction with bro in law on Andor episode one after watching it: he goes something like, no offense but it's not my thing, and I highly respected that decisiveness and forthcoming. And I loce the show, my cup of tea. With no bagging on it. No drama, end of story. It's awesome.
Yeah I remember reading that article. The issue wasn't that they called the racist comments evil but that they implied that, racist comments were most if not all of the criticism. And thus were basically calling criticism evil. Which is also how everyone reported on it from what I've seen They never addressed any criticism instead pretended like all backlash was racist and tried to gain sympathy and paint everyone criticizing it in a bad light. While simultaneously trying to argue the most important thing in Tolkien's writing was the diversity. Pretending like Tolkiens diversity is the same as turning every race, ethnicity and species in LOTR diverse in phenotype /ethnicity. “That’s the spirit we’ve tried to inculcate into every single comma and period in the show." Which also implied any criticism of a non white character was automatically racist. And the writers were really just doing exactly what Tolkien would have wanted
Thanks for making this video. I have been noticing a lot of youtube creators will go to any length for creating content. They are even resorting to flat out lies and twisting words to paint a creator or director in a bad light. Its lazy and disgusting!
Well it's really difficult and sometimes I feel for them for being inflammatory - unfortunately since people click on those way more often then regularly-titled videos, the youtube algorithm actually serves to reward that behavior than discourage it. Tbh, this is the same with any news agency - clicks get money, so there is really little incentive to not make dramatic headlines.
Thank you for saying this! I think this phenomenon is also a consequence of the tendency of people to start with their conclusions. People can read that entire article and still end up thinking the showrunners referred to all fans because that is the idea and conclusion they went into reading the article with. People genuinely looking at the facts and evidence and reaching a conclusion is incredibly rare. People claim they do it all the time, but very rarely do. And funnily enough, it's the people who call themselves "free thinkers" who usually start with their conclusions the most.
Ahh, excellent point. If your mind is made up going in, you're going to often read things that aren't there. And like, I get it - honestly they came off a little smug in the article and I wasn't impressed LOL but I can still at least quote them correctly - and they didn't call us all evil.
Most likely because free thinkers believe that they're free of other people's bias which means that they carry their own into every topic above all else
The problem is that they made the racist responses to ROP seem like the majority of what the criticism was, when it reality it was a small, almost unquantifiable, minority. They created a false narrative that was the "massive racist backlash" and decided to respond to it at every chance they could get when in reality most people were like.... this just isn't a good show.
Ok but that's not the point of this video lol. I say several times that I dislike the show - and have said in other videos that I think they exaggerating the problem - but that has nothing to do with fans also exaggerating what THEY say. It continues to cause the problem where everyone misquotes and doesn't understand each other and causes more problems.
@@Bookborn I agree 100%. There's been a litany of rage bait on RUclips that feeds off of out if context quotes like this. But I also think the content creators are separate from the average fan. But yeah both sides played into it heavily and caused chaos lol. My thoughts are moreso "Why would the showrunners alienate fans instead of trying to alleviate some of their concerns?"
Yup, same thing happens with shock sports journalism. I can't count how many times I saw a quote from a player "talking trash" only to watch a video of the actual quote and clearly see they were being sarcastic. Sadly not all these instances can be verified and like you said sometimes fans or headline readers take the info and run with it. Glad you made a video about it cause it's certainly something I wish more people took into consideration and verify information for themselves.
Thank you for providing the link. In all fairness, there are often tweets from all sort of people related directly or indirectly - deleted and not - that people will retain but not use as a source even tho it was said. Its also easy to walk parallels in points and swim in semantics. Some information requires more complex data than others. I dont even think the major problems are opinions on a sourced documents but rather the lack of diversified credible source in one's portfolio.
Well said. The only thing we can ever control is our own actions (we can't even REALLY control our emotions or reactions, only what we DO with them) I won't demonise anyone for overreacting in the moment, as we can all be emotional or speak without thinking (even over an extended period :P) but that's why we gotta keep each other honest. "Creators" (and corporate entities) have learned that provoking negativity can be great for marketing AND for preserving their own egos. That's not right, and honestly they SHOULD be criticised for it. But it's REALLY important to be careful. I know I spend an AWFUL lot of time arguing about this stuff (and I don't always give the benefit of the doubt in my rhetoric) but it's ALWAYS essential to appreciate that the steelman of any position is the one that should be addressed. Assume that any "worst case" interpretation is a miscommunication or mistake. I will say that all too often demands for "context" are cynical. Dog whistles are not just for calling dogs. Sometimes the ambiguity of a statement is by design, with interpretations being denied not due to lack of factual basis, but for convenience. I typically just wait for people to demonstrate whether the generosity they SHOULD be offered is warranted. They're usually happy to prove it one way or another without further provocation :P (one reason I never fell down the alt right pipeline. When people tell you who they are, believe them)
yeah and I wish I would've also said they we will ALL Do this at one point. I am positive in my life I have spread misinformation, although I'll say it was accidental because I really DO try to research/confirm - but it always happens. But the more we are aware of it, the more we can do to stop it, at least for ourselves.
I do recall an incident where marvel fans accused Director Denis Villeneuve of calling marvel movies repetitive '' There are too many Marvel movies that are nothing more than a cut and paste of others''. Actually he said '' they are made from the same mould'' and didn't mean any criticism.
Great PSA! I hope someday the internet can move past the non-discussion of using clickbait and outrage to get likes, retweets, etc. Too many journalists, redditors, youtubers etc. rely on misinformation to make an easy buck, not thinking of the ramifications of everyone doing it. Thanks for keeping it honest!
Yeah it’s tough. As long as inflammatory and misleading headlines Get clicks, and earn money, and are rewarded by the algorithm, it’ll keep happening. But hey at least we can control ourselves and try not to reward it!
Hey Bookborn, been very much enjoying your videos, thank you for making them. Your sentiment with this is good and I fully agree that we would all be better off if people did a little more digging before taking an opinion and absorbing it into their own. This is not a new problem but is problem that has been effected by modern tech/culture. So I agree with your position on this. I also agree with you that the quote being shared is in response to the interviewer asking about specific types of comments/harassment. The response however doesn't answer that question (or at least doesn't just answer that question). They also present a reframed question somewhat sidestepping the original. “The spirit of Tolkien is about disparate peoples who don’t trust one another and look different from one another finding common ground in friendship and accomplishing big things,” he says. “That’s the spirit we’ve tried to inculcate into every single comma and period in the show." and then address that question by saying "That this aspiration would be offensive to people and enrage them … it’s very hard for us to understand. What are they protecting?" They Then go on to make a statement that could be interpreted as either addressing the original question or their new version. I can understand why people reading this article could fall on either side. Either way it was not a great response.
To be clear - I actually think the article is vaguely annoying and I don't really like any of their responses to anything. It further reaffirmed that they didn't really know what they are doing with the show. I just hate that they are being misquoted when there is actual stuff in the article that you could cite to show they are inexperienced 😂
@@Bookborn Thanks for the response Bookborn. Their response is, in my opinion, ambiguous as to whether they are addressing either the racist stuff, people disagreeing with their idea of the spirit of Tolkien, or even possibly them equating the two. Because it is ambiguous it is valid or at least understandable for someone reading to associate the "patently evil" with any or all of those. I'd call it a matter of different interpretations rather than misquoting. the show runners said those things (assuming the article is truthful) and one could associate it more or less with any and all of the parts of their ambiguous response. Again I wanna thank you for your work on the channel, I have enjoyed hearing your perspective on this show.
I think the argument, and you have made it, has been that anyone who has been critical of the show has been misrepresented as racists etc. by equating legitimate criticism with the very few examples of people who've focused on things like black elves, dwarves etc.. You are correct that they didn't technically say everyone is evil but you're also, sort of incorrect in the context of the argument around this show. The showrunners made that comment and because the marketing has been telling us all the critics are evil even when they aren't it get's applied to everyone even when they may not have intended it to be. They have created the situation with their insincerity around the criticism they're getting and while I agree with you it's understandable that people will see their comment as applying more broadly than it should. You are right though and I do agree that everyone should be better than this. Keep up the great work :)
it’s a strawman article arguing that those who disagree with the show’s direction are evil (patently). also it’s a puff piece of enormous size. it’s not hard to figure out what is going on in that article. the show runners are salesmen, not creatives. they are trying to put the best light on their product. basically they are saying they are the little guys (Amazon), and complaints are coming from some powerful outside sources (fandom). they’ve conflated criticism and nasty comments into one entity, and that complaining entity is ‘evil’.
Did you watch this video lmao it doesn’t matter that the article was stupid! And yes it was a stupid article but they absolutely did not call everyone patently evil and we need to stop spreading that. It makes fans look bad. There are plenty of real things to complain about
yes! i love your vids! back to the story, this article morally vilifies people who complain about the show, calling those people evil. That intent is obvious when reading the article in full. They are the plucky underdogs taking on an enormous challenge, a David v Goliath contest of sorts. They took on feedback about the first season, so they’ll tighten the scenes up, increase the tension and have two episode grand melee! Our intrepid hero’s knew there would be a pushback from the nebulous dark entity Fandom, they had analytics provided by their corporate overlor… sorry, wise mentors. Evil Fandom had a history of admiring Tolkien’s works, look at those Italians! Evil Fandom criticised Peter “The Great” Jackson’s near perfect film adaptions 20 years ago, how dare they! Cast members had internet troll bile related to them, but they won’t assail the reader with evidence, just take our heroic duos word on the matter. Our heroes believe that the point of Tolkien’s work is that disparate peoples come together to overcome a great threat, and to disagree with that interpretation and to cast evil slights in response to that interpretation is patently evil. The gaseous Dark Evil Fandom doesn’t comprehend Tolkiens writing as our heroes do, how could they? The nebulous gaseous Dark Fandom one star review bombers are Italian flavoured fascists and racist and criticised Peter “The Great” Jackson films.
I learned from the thumbnail of this video that the show runners of RoP called the critics patently evil, no need to watch the video - thanks for the info!
I think its inaccurate to say its just because of messages cast received. The article mentioned that but also started quoting reviews, speaking on monitoring reviews and talking about how the Tolkien fan base has always had fascist followers. Only then does the article move on to the response which is to the topic as a whole rather than one specific point. So the article already conflates reviews with fascist fans and racist comments. Then in the reply itself Payne states their intent but extends this to the entire show. "That’s the spirit we’ve tried to inculcate into every single comma and period in the show." I don't think this is a bad thing to say but again conflates the criticism with everything said even though I think it is unintentionally. And it could have been clarified by context but then challenging those fans, quoting Galadriel who he himself wrote, and then claiming such people to be 'Patently Evil' certainly didn't help. My point is that the article in itself convoluted multiple issues to begin with, then Payne makes his argument about the entire show, aided only by questionable comments. People may have taken it out of context but the context was rather shit to begin with.
I mean, I actually disagree with a lot in the article. I thought the fascist part was really weird. But it doesn't give me the right to misquote them, either, and that's the point.
@@Bookborn My point is just that between his own comments and then the way the article presented it they were already halfway misquoted by the time fans even responded to it. To be fair some extreme ones would still misquote patently evil but it certainly didn't help.
@bookborn , thing is there is some parts of that article which do paint the fans in a malignant light and the critics in a more virtuous light before patently evil actually comes up like them being dark and manipulative, also the patently evil whilst it's in a paragraph that obliquely references racism it also follows a paragraph stating that the fans have a darker agenda with the review system, whilst also ignoring the positive review bombing. In the same paragraph the producers are quoted as to saying they don't understand what the fans are protecting (aka the canon), nor why they should be enraged which could be taken as fans are evil rather than racism is evil. To me the article both attacked the fans whom didn't like the show and wanted the canon of the books preserved more and those whom were racist but in my opinion it also merged them together somewhat this is my opinion of course. I also think the Author themselves comes across as biased against those whom dislike the show and taints the piece somewhat. Whilst i agree there is sometimes a problem with the extremes of fandoms, I think there's also a problem with the Journalists of today as well they don't appear as unbiased as they once seemed, and the generalise a bit too much in a way that makes more of the fandoms extremists than is an actuality.
To be clear: the article annoys me a lot LOL Like they randomly bring up that "fascists like LOTR" and then the discussion around what didn't work in season one felt very...inexperienced and didn't make a ton of sense. My point here is that there was plenty of REAL things in the article to take issue with, but instead, people have rallied around the lie that the show runners called "all people who criticize the show patently evil" - which is simply not true. If we want to start being taken more seriously as a fandom, we need to be precise in the way we criticize - even if others aren't doing the same.
@@BookbornI guess i got a different feel from the article compared to you A paragraph encompasses the theme and the entire article encompasses many themes and jumps all over the place. the Article jumps from facism, to racism, to dark and manipulative fans, to the prior films, to racist comments against the cast and so on the problem is all those themes are in separate paragraphs. But in that particular mostly quoted paragraph the problem is they haven't directly referenced what topic they're actually talking about and with the jumps i'm not sure which topic it could be, But they do reference Fans trying to protect ( I got the implication of canon there i could be wrong) and due to that they don't see how they are good and subsequently patently evil in that 1 paragraph, and subsequently could well be saying those against the show are evil, The fault here is at the Authors feet for not making it absolutely clear which topic was being discussed at that particular moment. Now whilst i'd like to hope your take is the correct one and it was just a poorly written piece, there is a little part of me that sees how detached people can be can see the other side being a possibility as well. so i was unsure to whom was being referenced.
This is a pretty common thing basically everywhere. Using information (fabricated or not) to push the narrative you want to be the truth, even if it isn't.
Everyone would be better off if they looked critically at the source of anything they read. I would also advise to try to verify a source for something is an actual human and not an AI generated piece, they are far more common than you’d expect.
YES, checking that sources are valid is so important too - especially when it comes to statistics. Can't tell you how many times I've looked at how data was gathered and been like...well that's not a good way to gather data!
Love that you take your time to make a video like that! It's a little sad it has to be made in the first place (and i'd assume that generally your audience is already better at being charitable than others anyway). This trend of building narratives no matter what, to tribalize, etc is terrifyingly everywhere these days. And the internet and social media allow for echo chambers to build more easily than ever before too. I have a pessimistic outlook when it comes to this problem, it seems deeply ingrained in our culture right now, but as long as there is counterpush, like your video, there is at least some hope, haha!
yeah this honestly isn't really aimed at my specific audience - who I think are all pretty grand - but just a general trend I'm seeing and I feel like I have to address it or I'll burst 😂
Are you suggesting we take some personal responsibility and put in some effort to make sure we are actually informed? That's a lot harder than just calling someone evil for making a very average and forgettable show that didn't meet the fandom's high standards. I wish this video could be viewed by a much larger audience. It is a message that becomes more relevant with each new adaptation of a beloved classic.
And that is the issue - clicking "share" takes less than a second, but checking and reading the article may take up to 10 minutes... and that feels like a lot of effort to some people.
Spreading misinformation is a big problem right now, not just in fandom and source checking should be vital in a lot of areas. As for the attacks on producers and the lies that are spread about them- it has been an eye opener to be honest. I think there are two causes. The first is angry fans who want their views confirming and will grab at any 'fact' that agrees with their beliefs. The second is that content creators can make a lot of money by producing 'angry' content. I do suspect 90% of fans just watch the show however :)
Agreed, tbh. I talked about this in my toxic fandom video, but I think the media - and inflammatory headlines - magnify a problem that isn't REALLY there. Of course there are crappy people in every fandom, but when we continuously report about them - no matter the minority - it seems a bigger problem than it is. It's unlikely to stop, however, as inflammatory headlines get clicks, and thus money.
Bookborn bringing the heat!! Love it I am afraid the people that need to heed this message...just won't. But maybe it will get through!! Checking sources, understanding context and actually *reading the entire source article/interview* is oh so necessary if you feel a burning desire to spread information on a public forum. There's enough bad info, lies and misinformation on the internet as it is. Let's not contribute to it. Sensationalism gets clicks, true. But is that really what's most important? Let's have some integrity and speak the truth in all things as far as we are able.
Totally. And in fairness, a lot of media outlets do this too - because like you said, the engagement of being sensational is too good to resist. But I just had to talk about it even if it doesn't make a difference 😭
Always great to see your reasoned content. Sadly it seems now that there is almost a symbiotic relationship between things showrunners say, and hyper critical social media people. It now just seems to automatically feed off one another as soon as topics such a story changes, or castings come up. I've got really tired of them, hence once again it being refreshing to come and take in your reasoned assessment, instead the hyper good vs evil type narrative of others (Both show and social media content creators) Keep up the good work.
@@Bookborn Yep, plus it wouldn't surprise me in the modern age of social media engagement that big company media teams target it, to get increased coverage. People end up watching in some feeling of solidarity, others end up hate watching, either way the company gets views and money. All reasoned critique is drowned out and the medium is all the worse for it.
It's personal responsibility that's the problem. People are far too willing to repeat lies rather than search for the truth, especially if it fits in with their agenda. This has been prominent in US and UK politics and media for the past decade... Unfortunately, as I've found out in the past few years, logic doesn't work on these people. They seem immune to logic, reason, facts, stats and simple human decency. The world we now inhabit makes me want to start legal proceedings to divorce the human race, Does anyone know of a nice Goldilocks planet nearby?
Yeah, I wanted to keep this video short so I didn't mention it, but this kind of behavior which may seem relatively harmless in a fantasy fandom space has GIANT consequences on the political world stage.
Well said. Sad thing, to me at least, the ones that need to hear and understand this won't. I'd refer to a source, but I'm certain you've read comment sections before.
Most news, social media posts, books, shows, are movies are for entertainment and have always been so. To get views or clicks, most writers/creators always paint the most dramatic and twisted versions to tell "their stories". These behaviors will never stop since "money" is involved (YT monetization). It's much better for viewers to use common sense and not be gullible to get caught up in misinformation and disinformation. It's more effective to promote more viewer responsibilities than asking "corrupt" people to stop.
@@Bookborn Many YTubers make living off of making sensationalism just like the mainstream media. Disney, Amazon, CNN, Foxnews, ABC, and all others do the same thing. They are competing with others, so more drama and more outrageous claims, more viewership. Especially in America, telling people not "do bad behaviors" makes things worse. For 50 years, we campaigned "against drugs" but drug use just climb higher the more we campaigned. Something about Americans that just need to "do the opposite"...
I haven’t read the article till now. And I’ve seen the headlines regarding the “patently evil” quote, but haven’t really looked into it just scrolled past. Reading the article though I can see how people may think the show runners are insinuating that critics of the show are “patently evil”. They may not have said it in a direct statement, but how the article is framed is misleading at best. When it begins the discussion about criticism it mentions that some of the actors have been recipients of bigotry directly, which of course is not okay. But then comes what I feel is a reasonable quote from a fan that expresses the feeling that Amazon seems to be stating if you don’t like the show you’re racist. Then the article states that Tolkien has a long history of attracting fascist-adjacent admirers. What’s the purpose of that statistic, btw? There are toxic people in all fandoms. They are a small minority but pointing it out this way I feel exaggerates their representation in a random. The next critical quote is from the Peter Jackson trilogy. But is used to infer that similar criticisms are being expressed for Rings of Power. And we all know how beloved those movies are today, so that weakens the case of criticism against the show. (Not that the quote used was a very valuable one). Then comes the statement where they state that “I don’t see how people who are saying these things think that they’re fighting for good. It’s patently evil.” They may have been talking about the racist comments from much earlier, but the placement of the quote after the other examples, plus the fact that the quote states people who are saying “these things” keeps it vague, and can easily be inferred as meaning all of the above. So, again, not saying that the show runners were quoted as talking about all critics, but how the article is written makes it seem like they could have been.
I'm happy anytime anyone I follow has a call to arms against disinformation. It reaches into every domain that we care about and (I think) combatting it is one of the most daunting yet most important problems of our age. Thanks for the message, let's spread it around!
Lol the irony. The writers are intentionally weaving a tale about the exact same topic. Essentially asking who is or is not patently evil from various perspectives. How odd is it that there has been more hours of drama from the audience… than from the entire first season of the show? One show to divide them all.
Thank you! It's like when people would make stuff up about or take out of context things Trump would say. He said plenty of insane stuff without taking things out of context, no reason to make yourself look bad in the process!
I feel like everything is wayyyy to politicized these days and often comments like these are spread (without fact checking) is not because it's a "fact" but because it aligns with the person's agenda and political believes.
I think the issue here is the way the showrunners characterised all criticism as racist / only ever responded to criticism about race / emphasised their racial choices so much in their promotional material. So therefore, when people criticised the show for other reasons and never really got a satisfactory response, they felt like the showrunners were characterising all critics this way. Especially because we don't know how much "racial abuse" the cast received, was it 1 DM, 10 DMS or 100 DMS? We kept hearing about it but we never saw it. We saw cast like Clarke act combative and unprofessional, even swearing at people on social media for "giving her black castmates hate", however that's defined. Does it mean people criticising the racial casting as it pertains to the story, or does it mean people outright abusing the actors privately? Were people doing that? It feels like they were playing bait-and-switch with who and what they were talking about.
I agree but also disagree with you. I understated what they are trying to say but the question is what they perceive as a racist comment. To them someone saying that the casting is bad because the actor does not depict the source material could be a racist comment.
I mean these are actually two separate things! I find the article actually very annoying - I think it exemplifies their lack of experience and doesn't give me a lot of hope for the future of the show - and you also may be right that they are blowing things out of proportion - but it doesn't give us the right to spread that quote out of context, you know? And that's the tough distinction.
I do love the nuance you take on these issues. You’re one of my favorite nerdy RUclipsrs. Most nerdy channels really dogpile POC or anyone who stands up for POC. Fandoms are kinda toxic though haha. I get that people can exaggerate the toxicity but I find my life is better just avoiding fandoms altogether. This is why my nerdy self is generally a solo thing and most of my friends aren’t very nerdy. Non-nerds seem to make better friends and life partners in my experience. Nerds kinda suck a lot of the time guys. I don’t think that’s a controversial statement. Nerds will defend racism just because a show you don’t like was aired. It actually crazy how some have more empathy with make believe pointy eared white people than actual humans with darker skin tones and different hair textures.
lol what nerds do you know?? All my friends are nerds, including my husband, and I think they make the BEST friends. They are always down to try new things and not be embarrassed by not being "cool". It's just as unfair to label all nerds as racist as it is to label all showrunners evil.
@@Bookborn I agree with you Bookborn. To add even more context, I think the people who jump to "the show runners said critics are patently evil" are doing so (wrongly) because that's the narrative they've seen from the cast and show runners (and media) since the show became a thing. The idea, again rightly or wrongly, is that the show runners are attempting to deflect criticism by claiming the only people criticizing are ones who don want black dwarves etc, because they don't want black dwarves. So when they get to an article like that, they are thinking "Here we go again" bcause they think the show runners are deflecting criticism again by implying anyone criticizing she show are doing so for racist reasons. Whether that's a justified view or not is certainly up for debate, but I can se where it's coming from, if one focuses only on negative criticism like that.
@@shinian6523 I am not trying to start anything but I am curious if you can see where the other argument can come from though? I mean I guess we can just say all of the racism in fandoms is not troubling or a sign of something within nerd culture that’s bad. We can just say that the media focuses on the bad and leave it there but I think that’s just a simplification. Like how many times do marginalized people have to just deal with stuff and “not make generalizations” while the people who enable the marginalization get to be looked at as sympathetic three dimensional people? It’s just funny how no matter the context we always need to protect the feelings of the nerd. Hbomberguy made a great video about gaming comics and his central thesis was about self reflecting on a subculture where toxicity can run rampant. While my initial comment may have come across as simplistic -which I did not mean it to, and I can own up to that, but I feel like my point is being proven when once again, only the nerd gets to be a three dimensional person, not the people who feel pushed away and rejected by fandoms. It’s fine, no hate from me for nerd or show runners but I can’t blame the media at this point after seeing the shallow well of empathy many fandoms demonstrate. Not ALL fandoms of course or ALL nerds but enough to where I feel you are being purposefully obtuse if you refuse to see it.
@@lor108avi My comment was to Bookborn. Did you read what she wrote? In any case, generalizations are bad no matter who's making them. Bigotry is bad, no matter who's doing it. I'm not aware of any fandoms pushing people away who generally want to be a part of it and experience the content with others. Issues you may consider 'toxic' arise when those fans who join a property, and then start wanting to change it or reinterpret it. Like some people claimed "Orcs are racist representations of black people" or claiming that Frodo and Sam were gay. Can you see where fans would react negatively to that? Diversity and inclusion can be done right. But hollywood is not doing it right. They are shoehorning in poc where it doesnt make sense. Like an isolated group of hobbits (or 'harfoots' if you insist). Its not realistic to expect people to believe an isolated group would all have different skin tones from each other. This way of shoehorning is superficial and shallow. i'd think it would be better to depict rich cultures and histories like older works do. The ROP could have featured darker skinned Harad folk fightin against Saurons control and power, or something. Show the history and culture of that region. Really dig into world building. But no, instead we get one black elf and one black dwarf and a few background characters that flash by on screen. Apparently fantasy worlds have to look like downtown New York. Is that really the representation 'marginalized' people want? And is pointing this out what you'd consider 'racist'? If so, why? As for toxic fandoms and whether I see the other side of it, I'm not sure what you're referring to. There are toxic people in every group, including yours. There are also loads of good people who get along just fine regardless of what they look like or where they're from. We're talking about millions of people. Many of these 'marginalized' people you refer to would disagree with you on many points. It's simplistic to say 'marginalized' people are excluded from anything. Maybe they are excluded for other reasons besides whatever makes them marginalized. Maybe they are excluded even if they aren't considered 'marginalized'. Or maybe the vast majority are accepted by the vast majority, and there are some rotten outliers that get all the attention from people who want to paint all fandom with the same brush. As for seeing the 'other side' of that. I've been on both 'sides'. Humans are humans regardless of where they are from or what they look like. Most importantly, we are all individuals and have the right to be judged on our own merits, not merits assigned by people who dont know us.
@@shinian6523 So I think there was a huge misunderstanding here. I think that if diversity was going to be done, they could have included Haradrim and Easterlings. I’m not defending rings of power. Like at all. I am merely pointing out that fandoms are full of people who try to turn racist tendencies into a media conspiracy rather than addressing it head on. As for my experiences, it was more casual racism and dehumanization of people like me and using me as the token friend to spout racist views. And I’m not an easily offended type. When I began surrounding myself with people who don’t tie their identities into fandoms, we could be politically incorrect without being hateful. And I found it is just easier to relate. I don’t doubt or act like my gay friends never experienced homophobic treatment and they don’t doubt my experiences I tell them. A lot of Nerd culture is more mainstream now but the people I was referring to are the types who build their identities off of fantasy worlds. You don’t think that even though Tolkien didn’t mean to compare orcs to black people that many fantasy nerds don’t walk around with the comparison in their heads? I wouldn’t blame the nature of the fandom itself, but maybe the types of people drawn to it. Pretending that the trends are some media conspiracy and sweeping it under the rug and then claiming to be against bigotry isn’t the same thing though and for some reason people not attached to the label of fanboy or nerd have a much easier time understanding this than the enlightened centrists within these fandoms. And sure Rings of Power did diversity wrong but even properties like Star Wars and DND are getting crap for being diverse and I don’t see how you can just act like it’s not a big deal. Browse through Witcher fandoms and tally how many racist comments you can find. There are some well reasoned ideas but let’s not kid ourselves. Lots of fears of white birth rates going down which mirrors people telling me being half white is redeeming like being a half orc in dnd. It’s fine if you don’t believe me. But I think you’re a smart guy and I hope some of what I’m saying has gotten through to you. Sorry if I overreacted but to me it is annoying that the focus of the conversation is the poor people being conflated with racists at the expense of ignoring the racism entirely. Maybe fandoms just aren’t for me and I can accept that. I haven’t posted a comment in ages and now I remember why. But I hope you have a good day and hope that this don’t make your day worse pal! (The pal wasn’t sarcastic, really I hope you have a good day).
That part of the article relates more to the Culture Wars than fandoms. The quotes are fairly oblique, but I think they do fall prey to the common trap of vilifying conservatism, without considering legitimate critiques of progressive ideology. (spoken as a lifelong leftist)
But truly that isn’t the point, ya know? Like I thought the article was pretty stupid and made the show runners look even more inexperienced - and talking about how LOTR attracts fascists is just stupid - but that’s my point. There’s plenty in there to make them look bad legitimately but fans have grabbed on to soemthing false - that they called everyone patently evil
We must be reading two different articles... They make a claim that "in private" some "harmful things" were said about the cast members, without elaborating. This could have been questioning their dietary habits, we don't know. The reply from fans, which they were addressing, was that ANY criticism of the show was based in racism... The "quote" used to highlight the chauvinism was admittedly from 2001, not 2022! The only claim they make is to look at the "trolling about diversity moves" which is a LEGITIMATE complaint that has LITTLE to do with racism, or chauvinism. It has to do with altering a long-adored text to conform to something that is simply NOT needed. Very few of the people complaining about the diversity issue are saying "I just don't like them people, I don't want to see them in my show!" They are typically saying "A forced diversity agenda weakens the story for no reason as it adds absolutely nothing to it and seems confusing, which will throw off your ability to enjoy the plot." THIS is what they called "patently evil..." ANYONE CRITICISING the show was considered to have done it for "racist reasons" That would include EVERY CRITIC. They are the ones who drew the Venn diagram putting "racist" around "critics." The showrunners did, in fact, call anyone who criticized the show patently evil because they considered ALL criticisms to be based in racism.
I feel like we are reading two different articles. To be clear: I actually don't agree with a lot they say in the article. They address criticisms but I don't feel like they actually understand them. However, people claiming they say any criticism is evil is just...actually plain wrong. The interviewer specifically asks them about racist comments. Now, could this include the idea that they are overblowing it? Sure. But we still can't take the quote out of context.
@@Bookborn But the point is when they say that "all the trolling and criticism is based in racism" they are implying that every critic is racist, and if the racist critics (all of them) are patently evil... What they said came with if A then B if B then C logic, but they did, in a roundabout way, call all of the critics patently evil. They are writers and word-smiths... the implication was absolutely there. This is why they ultimately don't get where they have gone wrong, because they believe all criticism is based in racism and chauvinism. You don't have to agree or disagree with the article to see that they clearly think all critics are just racists, because to them racism is the ONLY possible reason anyone is a critic... get it? Venn this -> If all critics are racists, and all racists are patently evil... then what are all critics?
Ah, no. They blatantly and openly said critics of the show are "patently evil". Full stop. No one was lying about this. No, they aren't just saying that about "racist comments members of the cast were receiving". The author make it very clear they AND Amazon consider NO criticism of RoP to be anything other than bigotry from racist and misogynistic people. As soon as the article admitted the poor reception of the series and the doubts fans had about it from the start, they immediately followed up with "we also have insight into the darker sides of how people can manipulate reviews and have other points of view that we wouldn’t support.” Then they mention the "racist comments members of the cast were receiving" quote from Sanders to bolster Amazon's claims of "a coordinated effort to attack the show for daring to diversify Tolkien with strong female characters and people of color". From there they outright state that a large part of the Tolkien fandom is "fascist-adjacent" and very deliberately connect criticism of the show with the fans they've just slandered, before they specifically quote Payne responding to "the topic [of RoP critics being fascist bigots] with his "it's patently evil" comment. That's the context of the quote. There is nothing in the context to indicate that "the topic" only means the "racist comments members of the cast were receiving" as you claim, except for the fact that Sanders quote just happens to be the last one from Amazon that they write before they mention Payne's quote. And given how the article discusses fans reactions to Amazon's efforts to silence critics and then the insulting argument about Tolkien fans being "fascist-adjacent" between the quotes, it is a perfectly fair to conclude that Payne's comment is a response to the fans supposedly being fascists and not to the quote from Sanders. There's no real reason to assume otherwise. Really, the best defense one can give the "patently evil" quote is to say the AUTHOR yanked all the quotes out of context in order to very heavily and very clearly insinuate and imply that the only people criticizing the show are "racist", "fascist-adjacent", and "patently evil". In which case we have no context for the quote to justify it.
Heavily disagree with this reading. First, the article does suck. It’s stupid! The author highlights fascist fans of LOTR as I’d every large property doesn’t have sucky fans by nature of the property being large. It’s stupid, but that’s not the part we are talking about right now. The patently evil part absolutely comes after talking about racist comments. Now you can disagree that those comments are happening, that’s fine. But it absolutely, in context of the article, comes after that. Full stop. For heavens sake the same article has them talking about criticms they agree with! I’m not defending the show runners - they made a bad show. However it’s absolutely silly to say they said every single person who doesn’t like the show is patently evil. Full stop.
@@Bookborn, and as I stated, the author interjected the statement that a large part of the Tolkien fandom is "fascist-adjacent" and connected to the critics of the show between the two quotes. He also cited Payne's quote as a response to "the topic"; he did NOT cite it as specifically responding to Sander's quote. Given this fact, combined with the interjection between the two quotes, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that "the topic" refers to the show's critics in general, and NOT to Sander's quote. You assume otherwise based on NOTHING more than the order the quotes appear in the article, which is a scant basis at best. No, it's not a completely baseless assumption, but it's by no means the only assumption possible either. There is nothing in the context to make us assume that the showrunners were all grouped together at the time they were giving the above quotes and making their statements one after the other, in response to each other. There is plenty in the context that allows the possibility that the author wandered from one showrunner to another throughout their visit, and received each quote INDIVIDUALLY after asking them what they thought of the show's critics, with each speaker possibly not even knowing what the others said at the time. In such a case, Payne's quote could not possibly be a response to another's. And frankly, what's silly is insisting that the very same people who disparaged the bulk of their critics as racist bigots, would NOT go on to further insult them as "patently evil". Them admitting a single lesser criticism may have some merit doesn't undo that. And don't be disingenuous about what I said; YOU, not me, made the statement "they said EVERY SINGLE PERSON..." - no one else has said that. What I actually said is that they plainly stated they think that their critics - in general - are, in their own words, "patently evil".
You might have had a point about the patently evil quote, except you left out the fact that the showrunners labeled everyone who didn't like the show as racists (regardless of the reasons presented by haters). Thus when the showrunners say that racists are patently evil, they mean anyone who didn't like the show. It's their words. You are just refusing to see the connection. Personally I'm surprised anyone nowadays gets offended by being called patently evil. The way I see it, everyone of all backgrounds are evil racists.
They absolutely didn't label everyone who criticized the show as racist. In the article they even address criticism that they think WAS RIGHT and they want to fix! Now, do I agree with the article? Nah, I think they come off a little smug and unaware of the real issues of RoP. But that's not the point - the point is that their quote is being weaponized when it's not really what they said. Like I stated here - there are plenty of things you can grab that they've said to make them sound stupid that they've ACTUALLY said!
I don't remember who I heard about the 'patently evil' thing from. It was a RUclipsr who read out the whole quote and still misunderstood it. And everyone seemed to have the same takeaway, "McKay and Payne are saying critics are patently evil!" so I'd started to think that it was my brain which wasn't working right or something. I'm glad someone said this.
Well the problem is actually the entire quote STILL sounds bad because it isn't framed by context - the part about it being about racist comments comes from without the quote, where the interviewer talks about asking them about that. So in this case, the entire article is really needed which makes it even easier to misquote.
@@Bookborn then maybe I'm remembering wrong. But I do remember seeing the video and getting that as a takeaway, thinking "aren't they talking about racism?" Maybe the context was up there on the screen, and I thought that was the whole quote. Sorry, my memory's been shit lately
It sure would be nice if people checked sources and made sure what they think they're looking at makes sense. A few weeks ago, the Star Wars Andor fandom freaked out over a tweet showing Andor's "ratings" were practically zero compared to other SW shows. Turned out it was a completely wrong graph made by an input error, but the damage was done. There were all sorts of articles/videos/etc proclaiming that no one was watching Andor and coming up with reasons why. But like ... even from the start this false graph should never have spread. I took a look at the graph and it immediately didn't make sense. The chart went out to 72 days, but Andor had only been out for 20 days. What the heck was the data beyond 20 days supposed to even mean? I didn't even have to go back to the source to see it was way off. I tried so many times to point out to people that the graph didn't make any sense, but the almost universal reaction was something along the lines of, "Well, I believe it anyway." That's what we're up against! I think that in this specific case, it wasn't purposeful misinformation. I think the analyst who tweeted it honestly made a stupid input error, and also for some bizarre reason he didn't check his own graph to see if it made any sense. But in other cases we're talking cases of bad faith purposeful lying.
Oh this is FASCINATING. But people don't know how to read charts and we've always known that 🤣 IT's something they emphasized a lot in my statistics class in university - how to see if data is being represented accurately. I can't blame them though - I may have fallen for that one if I didn't research - because my heart already feels that Andor is underrated, so if something comes out confirming it, it's so hard not to spread it! And that's what makes misinformation soooo easy.
To start with the article has many lies, e.g. "It was our collective passion and fidelity to Tolkien that really won the day". Really, Rings of Power is a display of their passion to Tolkien! Or how about "The Rings of Power has been blessed with strong critical acclaim (84 percent positive on Rotten Tomatoes) and dragged by online fan bashing (its audience score is 39 percent", Truly incredible and accurate statistics! Or some of my other favorites from the article McKay says. “It’s like, oh my God, the opposite. This is the most earnest production. This is not a paycheck job for anybody. This is a labor of love.” or “It was our collective passion and fidelity to Tolkien that really won the day,” and "Yet the deciding factor was their fleshed-out story and passion for, and depth of knowledge of, Tolkien’s world" Sorry, this is all utter bullshit. I could go on, but it's pointless. They started this whole affair preempting the backlash which accounted for all the early media interviews, as demonstrated by Yet Amazon has long known they were in for a rather bumpy series takeoff. They saw Tolkien fans slamming The Rings of Power online before a frame had been released. “We all saw it coming, there were no surprises,” she says. “Having insight into our global audience, we also have insight into the darker sides of how people can manipulate reviews and have other points of view that we wouldn’t support.” And then they deleted many thousands of reviews, because apparently all of those reviews are from racists! Sorry but taken in context, it was clear they wanted to make the claim that the fans (and we are not talking a small amount based on the numbers of reviews removed etc. are evil, as opposed to those like myself that simply wanted a more accurate representation of the material. And I will also add, to my knowledge I have seen zero receipts of the racism they claim! can someone point me to where they have shown this?
But see, the point of this video isn't about rings of power or the show runners - at all. That article was stupid! It was so dumb! It compared Tolkien fans to fascists! But yet, fans keep pulling out an INCORRECT quote because it *proves their point* easily. And that's the point of this video. You don't need to lie or exaggerate to make them look bad - you can use real facts. But the longer we pretend it's ok to use any means to make our point, the longer the internet is a complete disaster.
@@Bookborn I respect you have that opinion, but I myself disagree, and I do also concur this is not just about rings of power. It has happened and is continuing to happen as the norm now. As I said, unless they can show receipts of the massive racist backlash they received as opposed to just fan criticism, then they are directly attacking people like myself who simply disliked the show because it both destroyed Tolkien canon, and at the same time was one of the worst and most stupid shows ever written! So, in the context of what they wrote, if they are claiming that the backlash was from racism, which actually didn't exist, then it must have simply been the normal fandom that they were attacking as being evil? This is the reason, reviewers used that quote, because the evidence was that this was always going to be how they dealt with the backlash, they expected from the fans. This show was never about telling a Tolkien story. Now if it comes out that they do provide evidence of massive racism\misogyny, etc. fine I will accept I was wrong, but until then, I think people criticizing the showrunners is absolutely valid, because racism etc. is just the default shield they use now.
This comment got a little out of hand, so I'm going to have to cut it in half, and put the rest in a nested comment, unfortunately. While I agree with the overall point of this video, I honestly have no idea where your interpretation that Payne's comment is in response to racist harassment directed at the cast is coming from, and I've read that article multiple times, both before and after watching this. I do agree with you wholeheartedly that people shouldn't jump to conclusions without looking at the context, though, so in light of that let's look at some of the context provided in that article: The article mentions harassing comments once, four paragraphs before Payne's comment, but it makes no attempt to directly connect the two points, brings up additional context in the intervening three paragraphs that also relates to what Payne is saying, AND you seem to be ignoring the context leading to the article mentioning the harassing comments in the first place. The only place where the article mentions harassing comments is the line, "Amazon claims there’s been a coordinated effort to attack the show for daring to diversify Tolkien with strong female characters and people of color. “The hardest part was for people on the cast who have had things related to them privately that are just harmful,” Sanders says." But that line is, itself, a direct response to why Amazon decided to switch off reviews for the first week of the show's release. It was an argument as to why they felt preemptively censoring reviews was a good thing, essentially them saying, "we were worried some of the reviews might have contained racist remarks, so we decided it would be best to get rid of all of them." That's important context, because it shows that the issue of harassing comments were brought up in response to the overall issue of shutting down reviews, as opposed to a question the writer specifically asked Payne, which he is directly replying to. Maybe if the "patently evil" comment came from this Sanders guy they're quoting here, this line might provide all the context you need, but Payne never mentions the harassment. Now, if that paragraph was followed directly by Payne's statement I might still understand where you're coming from, even given the other issues it's addressing, but it's hardly the only context the article provides for Payne's statement. In fact, the next paragraph drives home the point that it was definitely about more than just racist harassment: "It’s an explanation that satisfied the media but inflamed some fans who feel the company is dismissive of any criticism and arguably risked escalating what might have been a short-term dust-up into ongoing fandom trench warfare. As one wrote, “I’m tired of the constant media harangues from Amazon that if you don’t love the show, you’re racist.” Many point out HBO’s House of the Dragon faced similar trolling for its diversity moves, yet its audience scores weren’t impacted." The article itself points out that people are being called racist simply for disliking the show, even when, presumably, they aren't saying anything racist about it. Considering that Payne's statement is presented, at least in part, in response to this paragraph, and doesn't mention targeted harassment specifically, I'm not sure how anyone can argue that people who feel like the fan being quoted here aren't among the people Payne is responding to. On top of that, in between that and Payne's comment, it brings up additional issues that Payne could be replying to. The first one talks about how Italy's new Prime Minister is a Tolkien fan, which, if that has anything to do with Payne's upcoming comment, would paint over half of Italy's population who voted for her as "patently evil," which seems like a bit of a stretch, even if you disagree with her vehemently. I don't think Payne is responding to that specifically, mind you, but given the broad nature of Payne's comment and the fact that the article gives us Payne's comment AFTER this, it certainly reinforces my previous point that Payne's comment is in reference to the broader issues at play within the fandom, and not to any specific targeted harassment. The final paragraph before Payne's statement seems to relate even more directly: "Or take this fan’s complaint: A Tolkien adaptation is a “New Age politically correct girl-power garbage version of fantasy” that’s “raping the text.” That sounds like what’s populating Rotten Tomatoes and IMDb right now, but it was actually quoted in Wired magazine in 2001 for a story about Tolkien fandom’s reaction to Jackson’s The Fellowship of the Ring." Now, while this comment is clearly a bit overdramatic, it's not targeted harassment, and certainly isn't about racist comments directed toward the cast, because it's not even about this show. The purpose of this paragraph is to show that the article is currently talking about trends in the Tolkien fandom as a whole, not about any particular instances of harassment, and the implication from that is that the next paragraph, Payne's statement, is ALSO talking about the fandom as a whole. That implication, (in addition to the fact that Payne's statement never mentions targeted harassment, of course) is a big part of why people have largely taken the "patently evil" label as having been meant to apply to large swaths of the Tolkien fandom, as opposed to individual racist comments; the article goes out of its way to tie it to groups as broad as the majority of Italy's voters and people who didn't like the fact that they swapped out Glorfindel for Arwen.
(This is a continuation of the original comment, which I had to break in two) Now, let's look at Payne's comment specifically: "Payne looks particularly distressed by the topic. “The spirit of Tolkien is about disparate peoples who don’t trust one another and look different from one another finding common ground in friendship and accomplishing big things,” he says. “That’s the spirit we’ve tried to inculcate into every single comma and period in the show. That this aspiration would be offensive to people and enrage them … it’s very hard for us to understand. What are they protecting? I don’t see how people who are saying these things think that they’re fighting for good. There’s a line in episode seven where Galadriel says every war is fought from without and within. Even if you’re fighting for something you think is good, if you do something worse in that fight, then you become evil. I don’t see how people who are saying these things think that they’re fighting for good. It’s patently evil.”" (Man, I hate quotations that end in a quotation mark themselves. >.< ) As I've mentioned before, Payne never mentions racist comments directed at the cast, here, only people who are "offended by the spirit of disparate peoples finding common ground" that they tried to work into the show. That casts a VERY broad net over who he may be referring to, here. The article's writer doesn't help us narrow it down much, either; he simply says that Payne looks distressed by "the topic." As I've already discussed, "the topic," in terms of the context of the article thus far, is not simply about racist comments about the cast, it's about the overall controversy surrounding the show, and why Amazon censored reviews. The only person who ever mentioned targeted harassment is the article's writer, not Payne, and it was only as one minor point within a larger narrative about the controversy surrounding the show. The implication there is that "the topic," in this case, refers to this larger controversy. Now, I'll admit that it's unfair to say that Payne is talking about ALL criticism of the show, since he specifically refers to people who don't understand that "spirit of disparate peoples finding common ground," but since that statement is, itself, so broad, I think it's absolutely fair to assume Payne is talking about "everybody who disagrees with their casting choices," here. That may not be ALL criticism of the show, but it's certainly a very broad swath of it, and one that a large portion of the people who hate the show for other reasons also agree with. And while you may not agree with people who dislike the casting choices due to inconsistency with the lore, and they may very well be making a mountain out of a molehill, they certainly aren't "patently evil." It's also worth pointing out that Payne's statement is a strawman, which assigns a random motivation which no one actually holds (there is no one on the entire Internet, EVEN the people who have sent harassing comments to the cast, who has ever said, "I am offended by the spirit of disparate peoples finding common ground") to an unspecified group of people. Is it really so far out there to imagine that somebody who doesn't even have a problem with their casting choices, but who falls within the broader category of people who have issues with the show, a group which the article has been talking about for the past five or six paragraphs, might look at that statement and think, "wait, is Payne also assigning that supposed motivation to ME?" I'll admit, that's a bit of a leap in logic, but considering that it's being made in response to Payne's own leap in logic, I can totally understand why someone might think it, and the article gives them absolutely no reason to believe otherwise. In short, yes, if you assume Payne is only talking about the people who harassed cast members, it's fair for him to call that "patently evil." But that's absolutely an assumption, and the article gives little to no context that should lead you to believe he's only talking about those few people, and quite a lot of context that should lead you to believe he's talking about a broader group. It may still be unfair to say he's talking about "all" critics of the show, but even the most charitable interpretation I can think of has him assigning that label to people who merely disagree with their casting choices, and I don't think the people with an even less charitable interpretation are making a bigger assumption than those who think he's only talking about the harassers, looking only at the context of the article. Now, I get it, if we're going to have to make assumptions anyway, we should generally try to make the more charitable ones, especially when it's about something as innocuous as making a show you don't like. Hanlon's Razor, and all that. That's just the best way to ensure society functions without us being at each others' throats all the time. And I agree with you, the people demonizing Payne and McKay are guilty of more or less exactly the same thing they are accusing them of doing by calling them "patently evil." I'm just not seeing where you're getting any context from this article, specifically, that they're wrong. Understanding human nature and optimism might lead you to that conclusion, maybe, but not this article. This article is just trash.
Um, what exactly were the "racist" comments the actors were receiving? It was criticism about canon. Nothing racist about that. It was the showrunners and actors, both past and present, who decried as racist and small minded the fans who simply wanted what they were promised not reimagined Tolkien for the current day. In a separate joint statement posted online, stars of the new streaming service adaptation said: "We, the cast of Rings of Power, stand together in absolute solidarity and against the relentless racism, threats, harassment, and abuse some of our castmates of colour are being subjected to on a daily basis." I believe we need to arrive at a point where disagreement isn't instantly labeled as racism, harassment, or abuse especially without evidence. Disagreeing about a casting choice isn't racism its an opinion. I generally like your content, but I think you got it wrong here. Looking forward to your next video.
Yes they do! But it doesn’t mean we should do the same thing is the point. I didn’t even like what Payne and McKay said in the article - but I also could recognize that they also weren’t calling people who criticized the show evil. Both can exist and SHOULD exist in discourse.
Love your reasoning.... However.... We have to watch what we say and be respectful of the showrunners who have blatantly disrespected the source material? Okay....... That was one article taken out of context. They did it with a series... Racist comments directed at the cast are deplorable. Using same cast as a shield for the show, equally so (debatable). Now the show is over, same diverse cast are defending the show, not the Galadriel, Elrond, Isuldur, plus character actors. Weird.... Or am I patently evil for making this point?
I mean actually you are getting at the exact point I'm trying to make. That article I cited? It actually annoyed me a lot. I think it highlighted how inexperienced they are and I felt it was weird that the article was saying that LOTR brings in fascist fans. However, that also doesn't give me the right to misquote them to prove my point. I can use like...actual points from the article to say "They don't get it". And that's my only point - don't spread the easy thing - them saying "anyone who criticizes the show is patently evil" but use their actual meaning to really discuss it. And yes it's annoying that they do it to fans, like I said in this video, but if we ALL misbehave, nothing changes. We can control ourselves and that's what I'm asking we do.
@@Bookborn I grew up during Apartheid South Africa and I have lived racism. My race can only be found in South Africa. After 30 years, Apartheid is still relevant. It is ignorant to believe anyone is immune to prejudice. These adaptation coming from the US is an insult to my intelligence. Using race, gender or any other form of diversity, only increases prejudice and breeds hate... I own my racism. I acknowledge I am and work on improving myself. Being told I am inherently racist is the truth about everyone. We are all Prejudice. Especially those who try to label others.
Great video! Fandom-menace's go crazy with misinfo just to bash a show or showrunners they hate. These are tv shows, books, movies, etc. Not political campaigns!
@@Bookborn Agreed! That's why seeing the same type of toxic discourse transfer over to tv shows and showrunners is maddening. I swear, just by the amount of smear campaigns, articles written with fake insider knowledge, and flat out lies that are connected to Kathleen Kennedy, you'd think she was running for POTUS. Lol
This! This is important. Criticism should be always constructive not hateful. Criticise someone's work and explain why you think it's bad, but do not criticise someone telling why he/she is a bad person, especially while you don't even know that someone. You can disagree with someone's opinion but do not villainize someone, just because he/she got different opinion than yours. Be civil.
but if we check our sources and find out that in fact, people *aren't* the monsters we want to paint them as, how will we ever release the unbridled rage that we have because Disa had no beard?
The problem is that the “racist” things that the showrunners claim are “patently evil” are actually not racist whatsoever, and therefore not patently evil. I’ve seen a lot of discussion regarding the Rings of Power and the race of the cast has been brought up numerous times. The problems that people have with this casting is the double standard in Hollywood that black-washing (or changing the race of white characters) is perfectly fine to do, however the inverse of changing characters to be white is never okay. We just want consistency. So by labeling a vocal group of the LOTR fandom as “patently evil” for pointing out this hypocritical double standard is entirely missing the point. I’m not going to claim that there hasn’t been those attacks (I certainly haven’t seen them if that’s the case). It’s one thing to hate a character because of their race or attack an actor/actress based on their race. That is obviously racist and evil, but that is not what is happening here. The fandom really does not like, respect or care for the intentional politically and ideologically-driven decisions the showrunners have made with this property. There are many quotes directly from the showrunners, producers, and other employees of this show about the desire to have Tolkien be more “inclusive” and “reflect what the world really looks like”. Anyone who feels to need to change Tolkien for political or ideological reasons should not have access to Tolkien. And don’t even try to come at me claiming that Tolkien’s legendarium is “vague” or that Middle Earth isn’t necessarily European-inspired fantasy. It 100% is. You wouldn’t say the same about Wakanda, Children of Blood and Bone, or the Burning Series for African-inspired fantasy. Or Avatar the Last Airbender, Jade City, or the majority of manga/anime for Asian-inspired fantasy. By the way, a lot of those properties I’ve just mentioned are getting live action adaptations (Avatar, Wakanda, Children of Blood and Bone, Jade City, etc.) and you see absolutely nobody claim we need to race-bend the cast to “reflect how the world really looks” (this is a paraphrased quote from Marianne Weber, a producer of Rings of Power). What people want is a faithful, respectful adaptation of the source material for those properties, which is all we wanted with Lord of the Rings.
Ok but see you are using this video to just talk about rings of power and what you didn’t like about it. And news flash - I didn’t like it either! But lying or misrepresenting what the show runners said gives them reason to ignore our real concerns! Because then they can claim “all fans are going over the top and lying”. It literally *doesn’t matter if you like the show or not. What matters is that we stop pretending people said things they didn’t just to prove a point* A great example of this is I actually really dislike the article I quote. I think it’s poorly written in many ways and don’t like a lot of things the showrunners said. But that doesn’t give me the right to lie and say they said everyone who critiques the show is evil - because they didn’t say that.
@@Bookborn No no no, respectfully I don’t think you understood what I was saying. I specifically stated that the things they are calling “racist” and “patently evil” are not either of those things whatsoever and I was clarifying what the fandom’s positions were that the showrunners stupidly mistook as racist and patently evil. That was the point I was making in that comment. It wasn’t just me using it to vent my frustrations about the show. If anything, it’s actually the showrunners that are lying and misrepresenting what we are saying by claiming that we are somehow being racist and patently evil for pointing out the obvious double standard prevalent in Rings of Power (and by extension Hollywood). And I’m also aware that you are not a fan of the show and never claimed that you were; I wasn’t coming after you at all. Even disregarding the larger conversation about the bastardization of Tolkien, the show by itself is an incoherent mess filled with poorly written characters, dialogue, plot lines, and so on. I’m glad both of us can see eye-to-eye on that. But I’m really sure I know what you mean when you say people are taking their words out of context or flat out lying. Like I said, the showrunners are the ones actually lying and misrepresenting what the fandom is saying. Besides, what they’re saying and doing is all for PR and use it as a way to market this poorly-received show.
It's a misinformation and words have been taken out of context, it's obviously true BUT what would you expect when Rings of Power is a battleground for this culture war that the west, America in particular is experiencing on a day to day basis. And let's be honest here - they (showrunners, directors, actors, legacy media) were the first who muddied the waters by starting to talk about diversity this, inclusion this, female empowerment this, the necessity of modern political messages etc. and IF you as a fan have s'mthing to say against it then you are mysoginistic, racist etc. all the magical words from the book (it's a disgrace how people use them so easily these days, it almost makes them cheap and loose their precise meaning). And this tactic is somehow similar with what you're pointing in your video, the showrunners are not willing to take into consideration or hear some opinions around these topics because you label them a certain way - it's like taking out of context someone's concerns who might be legitimate...then what do you expect when the "knives" have been taken out...of course you will be judged subjectively with every word you speak and taken out of context yourself. What you do to others don't cry when others do the same to you.
The problem is it doesn’t matter how the show runners have acted. I address this here - yes it’s annoying, and wrong, but it doesn’t mean we get to do it too. There are plenty of legit ways to critique the RoP showrunners - trust me I’ve done it plenty - so why are we relying on taking them out of context for something they didn’t say? Then we are just as bad as them
First, they definitely did. I witnessed it with my own eyes even on comments to my own videos. Second, it’s not as wide spread as the showrunners like to say. Both can be true. But it doesn’t MATTER what the showrunners do, that’s the point. They can be as wrong as possible. But why is it ok for us to be wrong back? See about 2 min into my video when I address this.
Wow. I can't believe Bookborn said everybody in the comment section is patently evil.
I meant what I said
@@Bookborn Gasp
I prefer evul
I accept that. But also, Bookborn’s a quitter who can’t finish Dresden, sooooooooooo ... yup. There’s that. 😂
two wrongs do not make a right.. but three rings somehow do... -some writer from a show I vaguely recall
LMAOOOOO
HAHAHAHA that's a good one 😂
"One will always corrupt. Two will divide. With three there is balance."
LOOOOOL
>to morally villify people
That's precisely what showrunners do when they play the "accusation of racism" card.
I address this in the video homie. It doesn’t matter their actions - we can only control ourselves. Two wrongs don’t make a right
Also, another important thing that is always nice to remember even if it has only tangentially to do with this: Everything someone dislikes also has fans who absoloutly love it. And that has nothing to do with watching something not critically. Sometimes different people come away from the same show and have two very different experiences. To asume that everyone either has the same experience with art or has to be wrong can lead to a lot of this toxic behavior.
Yeah that's also a super frustrating thing I see online a lot. It's hard to see outside of our own perspective a lot.
@@Bookborn I always try to be aware of other perspectives even if I decide to not engage with them. But you are totally right, it is hard.
I had the best interaction with bro in law on Andor episode one after watching it: he goes something like, no offense but it's not my thing, and I highly respected that decisiveness and forthcoming. And I loce the show, my cup of tea. With no bagging on it. No drama, end of story. It's awesome.
I LOVE this! Thank you for the tough love. I'm sure a good amount of people needed to hear it! It was beneficial to me too! Again, thanks a million
tbh beneficial to me too LOL I always need a reminder to check sources before getting worked up - we all do it!
Yeah I remember reading that article. The issue wasn't that they called the racist comments evil but that they implied that, racist comments were most if not all of the criticism. And thus were basically calling criticism evil. Which is also how everyone reported on it from what I've seen
They never addressed any criticism instead pretended like all backlash was racist and tried to gain sympathy and paint everyone criticizing it in a bad light. While simultaneously trying to argue the most important thing in Tolkien's writing was the diversity. Pretending like Tolkiens diversity is the same as turning every race, ethnicity and species in LOTR diverse in phenotype /ethnicity.
“That’s the spirit we’ve tried to inculcate into every single comma and period in the show."
Which also implied any criticism of a non white character was automatically racist. And the writers were really just doing exactly what Tolkien would have wanted
Thanks for making this video. I have been noticing a lot of youtube creators will go to any length for creating content. They are even resorting to flat out lies and twisting words to paint a creator or director in a bad light. Its lazy and disgusting!
Well it's really difficult and sometimes I feel for them for being inflammatory - unfortunately since people click on those way more often then regularly-titled videos, the youtube algorithm actually serves to reward that behavior than discourage it. Tbh, this is the same with any news agency - clicks get money, so there is really little incentive to not make dramatic headlines.
Thank you for saying this!
I think this phenomenon is also a consequence of the tendency of people to start with their conclusions. People can read that entire article and still end up thinking the showrunners referred to all fans because that is the idea and conclusion they went into reading the article with.
People genuinely looking at the facts and evidence and reaching a conclusion is incredibly rare. People claim they do it all the time, but very rarely do. And funnily enough, it's the people who call themselves "free thinkers" who usually start with their conclusions the most.
Ahh, excellent point. If your mind is made up going in, you're going to often read things that aren't there. And like, I get it - honestly they came off a little smug in the article and I wasn't impressed LOL but I can still at least quote them correctly - and they didn't call us all evil.
Most likely because free thinkers believe that they're free of other people's bias which means that they carry their own into every topic above all else
Mike out here with the good takes once again. Confirmation biases wut up
I continue to be impressed by your candor and skepticism about online discourse. Excellent topic and advice.
Thank you for watching 🙏
Thank you for making this video. This message cannot be repeated often enough.
Totally agree with you. Fact checking your sources would solve so many pointless discussions and „hate“ on the internet.
The problem is that they made the racist responses to ROP seem like the majority of what the criticism was, when it reality it was a small, almost unquantifiable, minority. They created a false narrative that was the "massive racist backlash" and decided to respond to it at every chance they could get when in reality most people were like.... this just isn't a good show.
Ok but that's not the point of this video lol. I say several times that I dislike the show - and have said in other videos that I think they exaggerating the problem - but that has nothing to do with fans also exaggerating what THEY say. It continues to cause the problem where everyone misquotes and doesn't understand each other and causes more problems.
@@Bookborn I agree 100%. There's been a litany of rage bait on RUclips that feeds off of out if context quotes like this. But I also think the content creators are separate from the average fan. But yeah both sides played into it heavily and caused chaos lol. My thoughts are moreso "Why would the showrunners alienate fans instead of trying to alleviate some of their concerns?"
Bookborn you never miss, keep fighting the good fight
Thanks for watching 👏
Yup, same thing happens with shock sports journalism. I can't count how many times I saw a quote from a player "talking trash" only to watch a video of the actual quote and clearly see they were being sarcastic. Sadly not all these instances can be verified and like you said sometimes fans or headline readers take the info and run with it. Glad you made a video about it cause it's certainly something I wish more people took into consideration and verify information for themselves.
Yeah and we will for sure all make this mistake - I know I definitely have - but the more we try to avoid it the more it hopefully can stop.
Absolutely 💯 hands down. My gosh how one would think that this should all go without saying. But...
You'd think 😭
Thank you for providing the link.
In all fairness, there are often tweets from all sort of people related directly or indirectly - deleted and not - that people will retain but not use as a source even tho it was said.
Its also easy to walk parallels in points and swim in semantics.
Some information requires more complex data than others.
I dont even think the major problems are opinions on a sourced documents but rather the lack of diversified credible source in one's portfolio.
“Two wrongs never made a right…” Preach!
Well said.
The only thing we can ever control is our own actions (we can't even REALLY control our emotions or reactions, only what we DO with them)
I won't demonise anyone for overreacting in the moment, as we can all be emotional or speak without thinking (even over an extended period :P) but that's why we gotta keep each other honest.
"Creators" (and corporate entities) have learned that provoking negativity can be great for marketing AND for preserving their own egos. That's not right, and honestly they SHOULD be criticised for it. But it's REALLY important to be careful.
I know I spend an AWFUL lot of time arguing about this stuff (and I don't always give the benefit of the doubt in my rhetoric) but it's ALWAYS essential to appreciate that the steelman of any position is the one that should be addressed. Assume that any "worst case" interpretation is a miscommunication or mistake.
I will say that all too often demands for "context" are cynical.
Dog whistles are not just for calling dogs.
Sometimes the ambiguity of a statement is by design, with interpretations being denied not due to lack of factual basis, but for convenience.
I typically just wait for people to demonstrate whether the generosity they SHOULD be offered is warranted.
They're usually happy to prove it one way or another without further provocation :P (one reason I never fell down the alt right pipeline. When people tell you who they are, believe them)
yeah and I wish I would've also said they we will ALL Do this at one point. I am positive in my life I have spread misinformation, although I'll say it was accidental because I really DO try to research/confirm - but it always happens. But the more we are aware of it, the more we can do to stop it, at least for ourselves.
@@Bookborn As you said, two wrongs don't make a right, nm how emotionally involved or upset you are.
If we can't do better, how can we expect better.
I read an article (I can't find it now) that said the highest rating Book or has ever given a book is 7.7/10! True story!
I do recall an incident where marvel fans accused Director Denis Villeneuve of calling marvel movies repetitive '' There are too many Marvel movies that are nothing more than a cut and paste of others''. Actually he said '' they are made from the same mould'' and didn't mean any criticism.
People like to be mad for no reason (or they were mad because it was taken out of context like so many things!)
Great PSA! I hope someday the internet can move past the non-discussion of using clickbait and outrage to get likes, retweets, etc. Too many journalists, redditors, youtubers etc. rely on misinformation to make an easy buck, not thinking of the ramifications of everyone doing it. Thanks for keeping it honest!
Yeah it’s tough. As long as inflammatory and misleading headlines Get clicks, and earn money, and are rewarded by the algorithm, it’ll keep happening. But hey at least we can control ourselves and try not to reward it!
Hey Bookborn, been very much enjoying your videos, thank you for making them. Your sentiment with this is good and I fully agree that we would all be better off if people did a little more digging before taking an opinion and absorbing it into their own. This is not a new problem but is problem that has been effected by modern tech/culture. So I agree with your position on this. I also agree with you that the quote being shared is in response to the interviewer asking about specific types of comments/harassment. The response however doesn't answer that question (or at least doesn't just answer that question). They also present a reframed question somewhat sidestepping the original. “The spirit of Tolkien is about disparate peoples who don’t trust one another and look different from one another finding common ground in friendship and accomplishing big things,” he says. “That’s the spirit we’ve tried to inculcate into every single comma and period in the show." and then address that question by saying "That this aspiration would be offensive to people and enrage them … it’s very hard for us to understand. What are they protecting?" They Then go on to make a statement that could be interpreted as either addressing the original question or their new version. I can understand why people reading this article could fall on either side. Either way it was not a great response.
To be clear - I actually think the article is vaguely annoying and I don't really like any of their responses to anything. It further reaffirmed that they didn't really know what they are doing with the show. I just hate that they are being misquoted when there is actual stuff in the article that you could cite to show they are inexperienced 😂
@@Bookborn Thanks for the response Bookborn. Their response is, in my opinion, ambiguous as to whether they are addressing either the racist stuff, people disagreeing with their idea of the spirit of Tolkien, or even possibly them equating the two. Because it is ambiguous it is valid or at least understandable for someone reading to associate the "patently evil" with any or all of those. I'd call it a matter of different interpretations rather than misquoting. the show runners said those things (assuming the article is truthful) and one could associate it more or less with any and all of the parts of their ambiguous response. Again I wanna thank you for your work on the channel, I have enjoyed hearing your perspective on this show.
I think the argument, and you have made it, has been that anyone who has been critical of the show has been misrepresented as racists etc. by equating legitimate criticism with the very few examples of people who've focused on things like black elves, dwarves etc.. You are correct that they didn't technically say everyone is evil but you're also, sort of incorrect in the context of the argument around this show. The showrunners made that comment and because the marketing has been telling us all the critics are evil even when they aren't it get's applied to everyone even when they may not have intended it to be. They have created the situation with their insincerity around the criticism they're getting and while I agree with you it's understandable that people will see their comment as applying more broadly than it should.
You are right though and I do agree that everyone should be better than this.
Keep up the great work :)
it’s a strawman article arguing that those who disagree with the show’s direction are evil (patently).
also it’s a puff piece of enormous size.
it’s not hard to figure out what is going on in that article. the show runners are salesmen, not creatives. they are trying to put the best light on their product.
basically they are saying they are the little guys (Amazon), and complaints are coming from some powerful outside sources (fandom).
they’ve conflated criticism and nasty comments into one entity, and that complaining entity is ‘evil’.
Did you watch this video lmao it doesn’t matter that the article was stupid! And yes it was a stupid article but they absolutely did not call everyone patently evil and we need to stop spreading that. It makes fans look bad. There are plenty of real things to complain about
yes! i love your vids!
back to the story, this article morally vilifies people who complain about the show, calling those people evil.
That intent is obvious when reading the article in full.
They are the plucky underdogs taking on an enormous challenge, a David v Goliath contest of sorts.
They took on feedback about the first season, so they’ll tighten the scenes up, increase the tension and have two episode grand melee!
Our intrepid hero’s knew there would be a pushback from the nebulous dark entity Fandom, they had analytics provided by their corporate overlor… sorry, wise mentors.
Evil Fandom had a history of admiring Tolkien’s works, look at those Italians!
Evil Fandom criticised Peter “The Great” Jackson’s near perfect film adaptions 20 years ago, how dare they!
Cast members had internet troll bile related to them, but they won’t assail the reader with evidence, just take our heroic duos word on the matter.
Our heroes believe that the point of Tolkien’s work is that disparate peoples come together to overcome a great threat, and to disagree with that interpretation and to cast evil slights in response to that interpretation is patently evil.
The gaseous Dark Evil Fandom doesn’t comprehend Tolkiens writing as our heroes do, how could they? The nebulous gaseous Dark Fandom one star review bombers are Italian flavoured fascists and racist and criticised Peter “The Great” Jackson films.
I love this video. That's a full sentence.
Another fantastic video!!! Thank you!!!
And this is why I love your channel!
Thank you 🥰
I learned from the thumbnail of this video that the show runners of RoP called the critics patently evil, no need to watch the video - thanks for the info!
I'm so glad my thumbnail could provide all the info you needed, I aim to please
I think its inaccurate to say its just because of messages cast received. The article mentioned that but also started quoting reviews, speaking on monitoring reviews and talking about how the Tolkien fan base has always had fascist followers.
Only then does the article move on to the response which is to the topic as a whole rather than one specific point. So the article already conflates reviews with fascist fans and racist comments.
Then in the reply itself Payne states their intent but extends this to the entire show.
"That’s the spirit we’ve tried to inculcate into every single comma and period in the show."
I don't think this is a bad thing to say but again conflates the criticism with everything said even though I think it is unintentionally. And it could have been clarified by context but then challenging those fans, quoting Galadriel who he himself wrote, and then claiming such people to be 'Patently Evil' certainly didn't help.
My point is that the article in itself convoluted multiple issues to begin with, then Payne makes his argument about the entire show, aided only by questionable comments. People may have taken it out of context but the context was rather shit to begin with.
I mean, I actually disagree with a lot in the article. I thought the fascist part was really weird. But it doesn't give me the right to misquote them, either, and that's the point.
@@Bookborn My point is just that between his own comments and then the way the article presented it they were already halfway misquoted by the time fans even responded to it. To be fair some extreme ones would still misquote patently evil but it certainly didn't help.
@bookborn , thing is there is some parts of that article which do paint the fans in a malignant light and the critics in a more virtuous light before patently evil actually comes up like them being dark and manipulative, also the patently evil whilst it's in a paragraph that obliquely references racism it also follows a paragraph stating that the fans have a darker agenda with the review system, whilst also ignoring the positive review bombing. In the same paragraph the producers are quoted as to saying they don't understand what the fans are protecting (aka the canon), nor why they should be enraged which could be taken as fans are evil rather than racism is evil.
To me the article both attacked the fans whom didn't like the show and wanted the canon of the books preserved more and those whom were racist but in my opinion it also merged them together somewhat this is my opinion of course. I also think the Author themselves comes across as biased against those whom dislike the show and taints the piece somewhat.
Whilst i agree there is sometimes a problem with the extremes of fandoms, I think there's also a problem with the Journalists of today as well they don't appear as unbiased as they once seemed, and the generalise a bit too much in a way that makes more of the fandoms extremists than is an actuality.
To be clear: the article annoys me a lot LOL Like they randomly bring up that "fascists like LOTR" and then the discussion around what didn't work in season one felt very...inexperienced and didn't make a ton of sense.
My point here is that there was plenty of REAL things in the article to take issue with, but instead, people have rallied around the lie that the show runners called "all people who criticize the show patently evil" - which is simply not true. If we want to start being taken more seriously as a fandom, we need to be precise in the way we criticize - even if others aren't doing the same.
@@BookbornI guess i got a different feel from the article compared to you
A paragraph encompasses the theme and the entire article encompasses many themes and jumps all over the place. the Article jumps from facism, to racism, to dark and manipulative fans, to the prior films, to racist comments against the cast and so on the problem is all those themes are in separate paragraphs.
But in that particular mostly quoted paragraph the problem is they haven't directly referenced what topic they're actually talking about and with the jumps i'm not sure which topic it could be, But they do reference Fans trying to protect ( I got the implication of canon there i could be wrong) and due to that they don't see how they are good and subsequently patently evil in that 1 paragraph, and subsequently could well be saying those against the show are evil,
The fault here is at the Authors feet for not making it absolutely clear which topic was being discussed at that particular moment. Now whilst i'd like to hope your take is the correct one and it was just a poorly written piece, there is a little part of me that sees how detached people can be can see the other side being a possibility as well. so i was unsure to whom was being referenced.
This is a pretty common thing basically everywhere. Using information (fabricated or not) to push the narrative you want to be the truth, even if it isn't.
Yep. And in fantasy spaces we can say it's probably minor but when we get to politics...that's when it actually starts affecting our world.
Everyone would be better off if they looked critically at the source of anything they read. I would also advise to try to verify a source for something is an actual human and not an AI generated piece, they are far more common than you’d expect.
YES, checking that sources are valid is so important too - especially when it comes to statistics. Can't tell you how many times I've looked at how data was gathered and been like...well that's not a good way to gather data!
Love that you take your time to make a video like that! It's a little sad it has to be made in the first place (and i'd assume that generally your audience is already better at being charitable than others anyway).
This trend of building narratives no matter what, to tribalize, etc is terrifyingly everywhere these days. And the internet and social media allow for echo chambers to build more easily than ever before too. I have a pessimistic outlook when it comes to this problem, it seems deeply ingrained in our culture right now, but as long as there is counterpush, like your video, there is at least some hope, haha!
yeah this honestly isn't really aimed at my specific audience - who I think are all pretty grand - but just a general trend I'm seeing and I feel like I have to address it or I'll burst 😂
Thanks you.
Thank you so much for this
Are you suggesting we take some personal responsibility and put in some effort to make sure we are actually informed? That's a lot harder than just calling someone evil for making a very average and forgettable show that didn't meet the fandom's high standards.
I wish this video could be viewed by a much larger audience. It is a message that becomes more relevant with each new adaptation of a beloved classic.
Well personal responsibility and actually calling out these buzz article journalism sites that push this nonsense that gets spread like wildfire.
And that is the issue - clicking "share" takes less than a second, but checking and reading the article may take up to 10 minutes... and that feels like a lot of effort to some people.
Spreading misinformation is a big problem right now, not just in fandom and source checking should be vital in a lot of areas. As for the attacks on producers and the lies that are spread about them- it has been an eye opener to be honest. I think there are two causes. The first is angry fans who want their views confirming and will grab at any 'fact' that agrees with their beliefs. The second is that content creators can make a lot of money by producing 'angry' content. I do suspect 90% of fans just watch the show however :)
Agreed, tbh. I talked about this in my toxic fandom video, but I think the media - and inflammatory headlines - magnify a problem that isn't REALLY there. Of course there are crappy people in every fandom, but when we continuously report about them - no matter the minority - it seems a bigger problem than it is. It's unlikely to stop, however, as inflammatory headlines get clicks, and thus money.
I heard Bookborn said that anyone who criticizes the media she likes are just dumb or bad
You heard it here first. This is my opinion.
Bookborn bringing the heat!! Love it
I am afraid the people that need to heed this message...just won't. But maybe it will get through!! Checking sources, understanding context and actually *reading the entire source article/interview* is oh so necessary if you feel a burning desire to spread information on a public forum. There's enough bad info, lies and misinformation on the internet as it is. Let's not contribute to it.
Sensationalism gets clicks, true. But is that really what's most important? Let's have some integrity and speak the truth in all things as far as we are able.
Totally. And in fairness, a lot of media outlets do this too - because like you said, the engagement of being sensational is too good to resist. But I just had to talk about it even if it doesn't make a difference 😭
@@Bookborn Fighting the good fight :D
Always great to see your reasoned content. Sadly it seems now that there is almost a symbiotic relationship between things showrunners say, and hyper critical social media people. It now just seems to automatically feed off one another as soon as topics such a story changes, or castings come up. I've got really tired of them, hence once again it being refreshing to come and take in your reasoned assessment, instead the hyper good vs evil type narrative of others (Both show and social media content creators) Keep up the good work.
Thank you 🙏 It's a hard cycle because inflammatory things bring engagement and it's hard for companies/people to resist that.
@@Bookborn Yep, plus it wouldn't surprise me in the modern age of social media engagement that big company media teams target it, to get increased coverage.
People end up watching in some feeling of solidarity, others end up hate watching, either way the company gets views and money. All reasoned critique is drowned out and the medium is all the worse for it.
It's personal responsibility that's the problem. People are far too willing to repeat lies rather than search for the truth, especially if it fits in with their agenda. This has been prominent in US and UK politics and media for the past decade... Unfortunately, as I've found out in the past few years, logic doesn't work on these people. They seem immune to logic, reason, facts, stats and simple human decency. The world we now inhabit makes me want to start legal proceedings to divorce the human race, Does anyone know of a nice Goldilocks planet nearby?
Yeah, I wanted to keep this video short so I didn't mention it, but this kind of behavior which may seem relatively harmless in a fantasy fandom space has GIANT consequences on the political world stage.
PREACH!
Well said. Sad thing, to me at least, the ones that need to hear and understand this won't. I'd refer to a source, but I'm certain you've read comment sections before.
I like the look with the jacket. It's sharp.
THANK YOU So Much 😊💜
Film Denethor, Steward of Gondor, did not get this excellent memo. Note to self.
Most news, social media posts, books, shows, are movies are for entertainment and have always been so. To get views or clicks, most writers/creators always paint the most dramatic and twisted versions to tell "their stories". These behaviors will never stop since "money" is involved (YT monetization). It's much better for viewers to use common sense and not be gullible to get caught up in misinformation and disinformation.
It's more effective to promote more viewer responsibilities than asking "corrupt" people to stop.
Yeah which is why in here I am calling for us to take responsibility! Even if the corporations still do it - doesn't mean we should do it too.
@@Bookborn Many YTubers make living off of making sensationalism just like the mainstream media. Disney, Amazon, CNN, Foxnews, ABC, and all others do the same thing. They are competing with others, so more drama and more outrageous claims, more viewership.
Especially in America, telling people not "do bad behaviors" makes things worse. For 50 years, we campaigned "against drugs" but drug use just climb higher the more we campaigned. Something about Americans that just need to "do the opposite"...
I haven’t read the article till now. And I’ve seen the headlines regarding the “patently evil” quote, but haven’t really looked into it just scrolled past.
Reading the article though I can see how people may think the show runners are insinuating that critics of the show are “patently evil”. They may not have said it in a direct statement, but how the article is framed is misleading at best.
When it begins the discussion about criticism it mentions that some of the actors have been recipients of bigotry directly, which of course is not okay. But then comes what I feel is a reasonable quote from a fan that expresses the feeling that Amazon seems to be stating if you don’t like the show you’re racist.
Then the article states that Tolkien has a long history of attracting fascist-adjacent admirers. What’s the purpose of that statistic, btw? There are toxic people in all fandoms. They are a small minority but pointing it out this way I feel exaggerates their representation in a random.
The next critical quote is from the Peter Jackson trilogy. But is used to infer that similar criticisms are being expressed for Rings of Power. And we all know how beloved those movies are today, so that weakens the case of criticism against the show. (Not that the quote used was a very valuable one).
Then comes the statement where they state that “I don’t see how people who are saying these things think that they’re fighting for good. It’s patently evil.” They may have been talking about the racist comments from much earlier, but the placement of the quote after the other examples, plus the fact that the quote states people who are saying “these things” keeps it vague, and can easily be inferred as meaning all of the above.
So, again, not saying that the show runners were quoted as talking about all critics, but how the article is written makes it seem like they could have been.
Fact checking & critical thinking are sadly lacking on social media to state the obvious...
It's too easy to click "share" without having to think about it
Well said! 🎯
Always like watching ur videos! 🍁🍂
I'm happy anytime anyone I follow has a call to arms against disinformation. It reaches into every domain that we care about and (I think) combatting it is one of the most daunting yet most important problems of our age. Thanks for the message, let's spread it around!
Preach!
You should have ended the video by saying: "Now go to your room and think about what you've done!"
Lol the irony. The writers are intentionally weaving a tale about the exact same topic. Essentially asking who is or is not patently evil from various perspectives.
How odd is it that there has been more hours of drama from the audience… than from the entire first season of the show?
One show to divide them all.
LOL the shade of "there's more drama in the fandom than the show" like so true that show is the most boring thing on the planet
Thank you! It's like when people would make stuff up about or take out of context things Trump would say. He said plenty of insane stuff without taking things out of context, no reason to make yourself look bad in the process!
I feel like everything is wayyyy to politicized these days and often comments like these are spread (without fact checking) is not because it's a "fact" but because it aligns with the person's agenda and political believes.
I think the issue here is the way the showrunners characterised all criticism as racist / only ever responded to criticism about race / emphasised their racial choices so much in their promotional material. So therefore, when people criticised the show for other reasons and never really got a satisfactory response, they felt like the showrunners were characterising all critics this way. Especially because we don't know how much "racial abuse" the cast received, was it 1 DM, 10 DMS or 100 DMS? We kept hearing about it but we never saw it.
We saw cast like Clarke act combative and unprofessional, even swearing at people on social media for "giving her black castmates hate", however that's defined. Does it mean people criticising the racial casting as it pertains to the story, or does it mean people outright abusing the actors privately? Were people doing that? It feels like they were playing bait-and-switch with who and what they were talking about.
"Taking quotes out of context"
This sort of behavior has never had horrible consequences in history. Never 😓
I know - that's the more disturbing thing, huh? if you take this out of a fandom context, it has much worse, far reaching consequences
I agree but also disagree with you. I understated what they are trying to say but the question is what they perceive as a racist comment. To them someone saying that the casting is bad because the actor does not depict the source material could be a racist comment.
I mean these are actually two separate things! I find the article actually very annoying - I think it exemplifies their lack of experience and doesn't give me a lot of hope for the future of the show - and you also may be right that they are blowing things out of proportion - but it doesn't give us the right to spread that quote out of context, you know? And that's the tough distinction.
I do love the nuance you take on these issues. You’re one of my favorite nerdy RUclipsrs. Most nerdy channels really dogpile POC or anyone who stands up for POC. Fandoms are kinda toxic though haha. I get that people can exaggerate the toxicity but I find my life is better just avoiding fandoms altogether. This is why my nerdy self is generally a solo thing and most of my friends aren’t very nerdy. Non-nerds seem to make better friends and life partners in my experience. Nerds kinda suck a lot of the time guys. I don’t think that’s a controversial statement. Nerds will defend racism just because a show you don’t like was aired. It actually crazy how some have more empathy with make believe pointy eared white people than actual humans with darker skin tones and different hair textures.
lol what nerds do you know?? All my friends are nerds, including my husband, and I think they make the BEST friends. They are always down to try new things and not be embarrassed by not being "cool". It's just as unfair to label all nerds as racist as it is to label all showrunners evil.
@@Bookborn I agree with you Bookborn. To add even more context, I think the people who jump to "the show runners said critics are patently evil" are doing so (wrongly) because that's the narrative they've seen from the cast and show runners (and media) since the show became a thing. The idea, again rightly or wrongly, is that the show runners are attempting to deflect criticism by claiming the only people criticizing are ones who don want black dwarves etc, because they don't want black dwarves. So when they get to an article like that, they are thinking "Here we go again" bcause they think the show runners are deflecting criticism again by implying anyone criticizing she show are doing so for racist reasons.
Whether that's a justified view or not is certainly up for debate, but I can se where it's coming from, if one focuses only on negative criticism like that.
@@shinian6523 I am not trying to start anything but I am curious if you can see where the other argument can come from though? I mean I guess we can just say all of the racism in fandoms is not troubling or a sign of something within nerd culture that’s bad. We can just say that the media focuses on the bad and leave it there but I think that’s just a simplification. Like how many times do marginalized people have to just deal with stuff and “not make generalizations” while the people who enable the marginalization get to be looked at as sympathetic three dimensional people? It’s just funny how no matter the context we always need to protect the feelings of the nerd. Hbomberguy made a great video about gaming comics and his central thesis was about self reflecting on a subculture where toxicity can run rampant. While my initial comment may have come across as simplistic -which I did not mean it to, and I can own up to that, but I feel like my point is being proven when once again, only the nerd gets to be a three dimensional person, not the people who feel pushed away and rejected by fandoms. It’s fine, no hate from me for nerd or show runners but I can’t blame the media at this point after seeing the shallow well of empathy many fandoms demonstrate. Not ALL fandoms of course or ALL nerds but enough to where I feel you are being purposefully obtuse if you refuse to see it.
@@lor108avi My comment was to Bookborn. Did you read what she wrote? In any case, generalizations are bad no matter who's making them. Bigotry is bad, no matter who's doing it. I'm not aware of any fandoms pushing people away who generally want to be a part of it and experience the content with others.
Issues you may consider 'toxic' arise when those fans who join a property, and then start wanting to change it or reinterpret it. Like some people claimed "Orcs are racist representations of black people" or claiming that Frodo and Sam were gay. Can you see where fans would react negatively to that?
Diversity and inclusion can be done right. But hollywood is not doing it right. They are shoehorning in poc where it doesnt make sense. Like an isolated group of hobbits (or 'harfoots' if you insist). Its not realistic to expect people to believe an isolated group would all have different skin tones from each other. This way of shoehorning is superficial and shallow. i'd think it would be better to depict rich cultures and histories like older works do. The ROP could have featured darker skinned Harad folk fightin against Saurons control and power, or something. Show the history and culture of that region. Really dig into world building.
But no, instead we get one black elf and one black dwarf and a few background characters that flash by on screen. Apparently fantasy worlds have to look like downtown New York.
Is that really the representation 'marginalized' people want?
And is pointing this out what you'd consider 'racist'? If so, why?
As for toxic fandoms and whether I see the other side of it, I'm not sure what you're referring to. There are toxic people in every group, including yours. There are also loads of good people who get along just fine regardless of what they look like or where they're from. We're talking about millions of people. Many of these 'marginalized' people you refer to would disagree with you on many points. It's simplistic to say 'marginalized' people are excluded from anything. Maybe they are excluded for other reasons besides whatever makes them marginalized. Maybe they are excluded even if they aren't considered 'marginalized'. Or maybe the vast majority are accepted by the vast majority, and there are some rotten outliers that get all the attention from people who want to paint all fandom with the same brush.
As for seeing the 'other side' of that. I've been on both 'sides'. Humans are humans regardless of where they are from or what they look like. Most importantly, we are all individuals and have the right to be judged on our own merits, not merits assigned by people who dont know us.
@@shinian6523 So I think there was a huge misunderstanding here. I think that if diversity was going to be done, they could have included Haradrim and Easterlings. I’m not defending rings of power. Like at all. I am merely pointing out that fandoms are full of people who try to turn racist tendencies into a media conspiracy rather than addressing it head on. As for my experiences, it was more casual racism and dehumanization of people like me and using me as the token friend to spout racist views. And I’m not an easily offended type. When I began surrounding myself with people who don’t tie their identities into fandoms, we could be politically incorrect without being hateful. And I found it is just easier to relate. I don’t doubt or act like my gay friends never experienced homophobic treatment and they don’t doubt my experiences I tell them. A lot of Nerd culture is more mainstream now but the people I was referring to are the types who build their identities off of fantasy worlds. You don’t think that even though Tolkien didn’t mean to compare orcs to black people that many fantasy nerds don’t walk around with the comparison in their heads? I wouldn’t blame the nature of the fandom itself, but maybe the types of people drawn to it. Pretending that the trends are some media conspiracy and sweeping it under the rug and then claiming to be against bigotry isn’t the same thing though and for some reason people not attached to the label of fanboy or nerd have a much easier time understanding this than the enlightened centrists within these fandoms. And sure Rings of Power did diversity wrong but even properties like Star Wars and DND are getting crap for being diverse and I don’t see how you can just act like it’s not a big deal. Browse through Witcher fandoms and tally how many racist comments you can find. There are some well reasoned ideas but let’s not kid ourselves. Lots of fears of white birth rates going down which mirrors people telling me being half white is redeeming like being a half orc in dnd. It’s fine if you don’t believe me. But I think you’re a smart guy and I hope some of what I’m saying has gotten through to you. Sorry if I overreacted but to me it is annoying that the focus of the conversation is the poor people being conflated with racists at the expense of ignoring the racism entirely. Maybe fandoms just aren’t for me and I can accept that. I haven’t posted a comment in ages and now I remember why. But I hope you have a good day and hope that this don’t make your day worse pal! (The pal wasn’t sarcastic, really I hope you have a good day).
That part of the article relates more to the Culture Wars than fandoms. The quotes are fairly oblique, but I think they do fall prey to the common trap of vilifying conservatism, without considering legitimate critiques of progressive ideology. (spoken as a lifelong leftist)
But truly that isn’t the point, ya know? Like I thought the article was pretty stupid and made the show runners look even more inexperienced - and talking about how LOTR attracts fascists is just stupid - but that’s my point. There’s plenty in there to make them look bad legitimately but fans have grabbed on to soemthing false - that they called everyone patently evil
Great video
We must be reading two different articles... They make a claim that "in private" some "harmful things" were said about the cast members, without elaborating. This could have been questioning their dietary habits, we don't know. The reply from fans, which they were addressing, was that ANY criticism of the show was based in racism... The "quote" used to highlight the chauvinism was admittedly from 2001, not 2022! The only claim they make is to look at the "trolling about diversity moves" which is a LEGITIMATE complaint that has LITTLE to do with racism, or chauvinism. It has to do with altering a long-adored text to conform to something that is simply NOT needed. Very few of the people complaining about the diversity issue are saying "I just don't like them people, I don't want to see them in my show!" They are typically saying "A forced diversity agenda weakens the story for no reason as it adds absolutely nothing to it and seems confusing, which will throw off your ability to enjoy the plot." THIS is what they called "patently evil..." ANYONE CRITICISING the show was considered to have done it for "racist reasons" That would include EVERY CRITIC. They are the ones who drew the Venn diagram putting "racist" around "critics." The showrunners did, in fact, call anyone who criticized the show patently evil because they considered ALL criticisms to be based in racism.
I feel like we are reading two different articles. To be clear: I actually don't agree with a lot they say in the article. They address criticisms but I don't feel like they actually understand them. However, people claiming they say any criticism is evil is just...actually plain wrong. The interviewer specifically asks them about racist comments. Now, could this include the idea that they are overblowing it? Sure. But we still can't take the quote out of context.
@@Bookborn But the point is when they say that "all the trolling and criticism is based in racism" they are implying that every critic is racist, and if the racist critics (all of them) are patently evil... What they said came with if A then B if B then C logic, but they did, in a roundabout way, call all of the critics patently evil. They are writers and word-smiths... the implication was absolutely there. This is why they ultimately don't get where they have gone wrong, because they believe all criticism is based in racism and chauvinism. You don't have to agree or disagree with the article to see that they clearly think all critics are just racists, because to them racism is the ONLY possible reason anyone is a critic... get it? Venn this -> If all critics are racists, and all racists are patently evil... then what are all critics?
Spot on as always.
Ah, no. They blatantly and openly said critics of the show are "patently evil". Full stop. No one was lying about this.
No, they aren't just saying that about "racist comments members of the cast were receiving". The author make it very clear they AND Amazon consider NO criticism of RoP to be anything other than bigotry from racist and misogynistic people. As soon as the article admitted the poor reception of the series and the doubts fans had about it from the start, they immediately followed up with "we also have insight into the darker sides of how people can manipulate reviews and have other points of view that we wouldn’t support.” Then they mention the "racist comments members of the cast were receiving" quote from Sanders to bolster Amazon's claims of "a coordinated effort to attack the show for daring to diversify Tolkien with strong female characters and people of color". From there they outright state that a large part of the Tolkien fandom is "fascist-adjacent" and very deliberately connect criticism of the show with the fans they've just slandered, before they specifically quote Payne responding to "the topic [of RoP critics being fascist bigots] with his "it's patently evil" comment. That's the context of the quote.
There is nothing in the context to indicate that "the topic" only means the "racist comments members of the cast were receiving" as you claim, except for the fact that Sanders quote just happens to be the last one from Amazon that they write before they mention Payne's quote. And given how the article discusses fans reactions to Amazon's efforts to silence critics and then the insulting argument about Tolkien fans being "fascist-adjacent" between the quotes, it is a perfectly fair to conclude that Payne's comment is a response to the fans supposedly being fascists and not to the quote from Sanders. There's no real reason to assume otherwise. Really, the best defense one can give the "patently evil" quote is to say the AUTHOR yanked all the quotes out of context in order to very heavily and very clearly insinuate and imply that the only people criticizing the show are "racist", "fascist-adjacent", and "patently evil". In which case we have no context for the quote to justify it.
Heavily disagree with this reading. First, the article does suck. It’s stupid! The author highlights fascist fans of LOTR as I’d every large property doesn’t have sucky fans by nature of the property being large. It’s stupid, but that’s not the part we are talking about right now.
The patently evil part absolutely comes after talking about racist comments. Now you can disagree that those comments are happening, that’s fine. But it absolutely, in context of the article, comes after that. Full stop. For heavens sake the same article has them talking about criticms they agree with!
I’m not defending the show runners - they made a bad show. However it’s absolutely silly to say they said every single person who doesn’t like the show is patently evil. Full stop.
@@Bookborn, and as I stated, the author interjected the statement that a large part of the Tolkien fandom is "fascist-adjacent" and connected to the critics of the show between the two quotes. He also cited Payne's quote as a response to "the topic"; he did NOT cite it as specifically responding to Sander's quote. Given this fact, combined with the interjection between the two quotes, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that "the topic" refers to the show's critics in general, and NOT to Sander's quote. You assume otherwise based on NOTHING more than the order the quotes appear in the article, which is a scant basis at best. No, it's not a completely baseless assumption, but it's by no means the only assumption possible either.
There is nothing in the context to make us assume that the showrunners were all grouped together at the time they were giving the above quotes and making their statements one after the other, in response to each other. There is plenty in the context that allows the possibility that the author wandered from one showrunner to another throughout their visit, and received each quote INDIVIDUALLY after asking them what they thought of the show's critics, with each speaker possibly not even knowing what the others said at the time. In such a case, Payne's quote could not possibly be a response to another's.
And frankly, what's silly is insisting that the very same people who disparaged the bulk of their critics as racist bigots, would NOT go on to further insult them as "patently evil". Them admitting a single lesser criticism may have some merit doesn't undo that.
And don't be disingenuous about what I said; YOU, not me, made the statement "they said EVERY SINGLE PERSON..." - no one else has said that. What I actually said is that they plainly stated they think that their critics - in general - are, in their own words, "patently evil".
You might have had a point about the patently evil quote, except you left out the fact that the showrunners labeled everyone who didn't like the show as racists (regardless of the reasons presented by haters). Thus when the showrunners say that racists are patently evil, they mean anyone who didn't like the show. It's their words. You are just refusing to see the connection.
Personally I'm surprised anyone nowadays gets offended by being called patently evil. The way I see it, everyone of all backgrounds are evil racists.
They absolutely didn't label everyone who criticized the show as racist. In the article they even address criticism that they think WAS RIGHT and they want to fix! Now, do I agree with the article? Nah, I think they come off a little smug and unaware of the real issues of RoP. But that's not the point - the point is that their quote is being weaponized when it's not really what they said. Like I stated here - there are plenty of things you can grab that they've said to make them sound stupid that they've ACTUALLY said!
You may need to post this video three times.
Oof, I love rant videos
I don't remember who I heard about the 'patently evil' thing from. It was a RUclipsr who read out the whole quote and still misunderstood it.
And everyone seemed to have the same takeaway, "McKay and Payne are saying critics are patently evil!" so I'd started to think that it was my brain which wasn't working right or something. I'm glad someone said this.
Well the problem is actually the entire quote STILL sounds bad because it isn't framed by context - the part about it being about racist comments comes from without the quote, where the interviewer talks about asking them about that. So in this case, the entire article is really needed which makes it even easier to misquote.
@@Bookborn then maybe I'm remembering wrong. But I do remember seeing the video and getting that as a takeaway, thinking "aren't they talking about racism?" Maybe the context was up there on the screen, and I thought that was the whole quote. Sorry, my memory's been shit lately
@@Bookborn Ah its good to see you recognize and acknowledge that part too, just wrote about that basically haha.
It sure would be nice if people checked sources and made sure what they think they're looking at makes sense.
A few weeks ago, the Star Wars Andor fandom freaked out over a tweet showing Andor's "ratings" were practically zero compared to other SW shows. Turned out it was a completely wrong graph made by an input error, but the damage was done. There were all sorts of articles/videos/etc proclaiming that no one was watching Andor and coming up with reasons why.
But like ... even from the start this false graph should never have spread. I took a look at the graph and it immediately didn't make sense. The chart went out to 72 days, but Andor had only been out for 20 days. What the heck was the data beyond 20 days supposed to even mean? I didn't even have to go back to the source to see it was way off.
I tried so many times to point out to people that the graph didn't make any sense, but the almost universal reaction was something along the lines of, "Well, I believe it anyway." That's what we're up against!
I think that in this specific case, it wasn't purposeful misinformation. I think the analyst who tweeted it honestly made a stupid input error, and also for some bizarre reason he didn't check his own graph to see if it made any sense. But in other cases we're talking cases of bad faith purposeful lying.
Oh this is FASCINATING. But people don't know how to read charts and we've always known that 🤣 IT's something they emphasized a lot in my statistics class in university - how to see if data is being represented accurately.
I can't blame them though - I may have fallen for that one if I didn't research - because my heart already feels that Andor is underrated, so if something comes out confirming it, it's so hard not to spread it! And that's what makes misinformation soooo easy.
To start with the article has many lies, e.g. "It was our collective passion and fidelity to Tolkien that really won the day". Really, Rings of Power is a display of their passion to Tolkien!
Or how about "The Rings of Power has been blessed with strong critical acclaim (84 percent positive on Rotten Tomatoes) and dragged by online fan bashing (its audience score is 39 percent", Truly incredible and accurate statistics!
Or some of my other favorites from the article
McKay says. “It’s like, oh my God, the opposite. This is the most earnest production. This is not a paycheck job for anybody. This is a labor of love.”
or
“It was our collective passion and fidelity to Tolkien that really won the day,”
and
"Yet the deciding factor was their fleshed-out story and passion for, and depth of knowledge of, Tolkien’s world"
Sorry, this is all utter bullshit. I could go on, but it's pointless.
They started this whole affair preempting the backlash which accounted for all the early media interviews, as demonstrated by
Yet Amazon has long known they were in for a rather bumpy series takeoff. They saw Tolkien fans slamming The Rings of Power online before a frame had been released. “We all saw it coming, there were no surprises,” she says. “Having insight into our global audience, we also have insight into the darker sides of how people can manipulate reviews and have other points of view that we wouldn’t support.”
And then they deleted many thousands of reviews, because apparently all of those reviews are from racists!
Sorry but taken in context, it was clear they wanted to make the claim that the fans (and we are not talking a small amount based on the numbers of reviews removed etc. are evil, as opposed to those like myself that simply wanted a more accurate representation of the material.
And I will also add, to my knowledge I have seen zero receipts of the racism they claim! can someone point me to where they have shown this?
But see, the point of this video isn't about rings of power or the show runners - at all. That article was stupid! It was so dumb! It compared Tolkien fans to fascists! But yet, fans keep pulling out an INCORRECT quote because it *proves their point* easily. And that's the point of this video. You don't need to lie or exaggerate to make them look bad - you can use real facts. But the longer we pretend it's ok to use any means to make our point, the longer the internet is a complete disaster.
@@Bookborn I respect you have that opinion, but I myself disagree, and I do also concur this is not just about rings of power. It has happened and is continuing to happen as the norm now.
As I said, unless they can show receipts of the massive racist backlash they received as opposed to just fan criticism, then they are directly attacking people like myself who simply disliked the show because it both destroyed Tolkien canon, and at the same time was one of the worst and most stupid shows ever written!
So, in the context of what they wrote, if they are claiming that the backlash was from racism, which actually didn't exist, then it must have simply been the normal fandom that they were attacking as being evil?
This is the reason, reviewers used that quote, because the evidence was that this was always going to be how they dealt with the backlash, they expected from the fans. This show was never about telling a Tolkien story.
Now if it comes out that they do provide evidence of massive racism\misogyny, etc. fine I will accept I was wrong, but until then, I think people criticizing the showrunners is absolutely valid, because racism etc. is just the default shield they use now.
I just wait for bookborn to tell me what my opinion should be
Same tbh
🤣🤣 bad idea all around guys
Yup
This comment got a little out of hand, so I'm going to have to cut it in half, and put the rest in a nested comment, unfortunately.
While I agree with the overall point of this video, I honestly have no idea where your interpretation that Payne's comment is in response to racist harassment directed at the cast is coming from, and I've read that article multiple times, both before and after watching this.
I do agree with you wholeheartedly that people shouldn't jump to conclusions without looking at the context, though, so in light of that let's look at some of the context provided in that article:
The article mentions harassing comments once, four paragraphs before Payne's comment, but it makes no attempt to directly connect the two points, brings up additional context in the intervening three paragraphs that also relates to what Payne is saying, AND you seem to be ignoring the context leading to the article mentioning the harassing comments in the first place.
The only place where the article mentions harassing comments is the line, "Amazon claims there’s been a coordinated effort to attack the show for daring to diversify Tolkien with strong female characters and people of color. “The hardest part was for people on the cast who have had things related to them privately that are just harmful,” Sanders says." But that line is, itself, a direct response to why Amazon decided to switch off reviews for the first week of the show's release. It was an argument as to why they felt preemptively censoring reviews was a good thing, essentially them saying, "we were worried some of the reviews might have contained racist remarks, so we decided it would be best to get rid of all of them." That's important context, because it shows that the issue of harassing comments were brought up in response to the overall issue of shutting down reviews, as opposed to a question the writer specifically asked Payne, which he is directly replying to. Maybe if the "patently evil" comment came from this Sanders guy they're quoting here, this line might provide all the context you need, but Payne never mentions the harassment.
Now, if that paragraph was followed directly by Payne's statement I might still understand where you're coming from, even given the other issues it's addressing, but it's hardly the only context the article provides for Payne's statement. In fact, the next paragraph drives home the point that it was definitely about more than just racist harassment: "It’s an explanation that satisfied the media but inflamed some fans who feel the company is dismissive of any criticism and arguably risked escalating what might have been a short-term dust-up into ongoing fandom trench warfare. As one wrote, “I’m tired of the constant media harangues from Amazon that if you don’t love the show, you’re racist.” Many point out HBO’s House of the Dragon faced similar trolling for its diversity moves, yet its audience scores weren’t impacted." The article itself points out that people are being called racist simply for disliking the show, even when, presumably, they aren't saying anything racist about it. Considering that Payne's statement is presented, at least in part, in response to this paragraph, and doesn't mention targeted harassment specifically, I'm not sure how anyone can argue that people who feel like the fan being quoted here aren't among the people Payne is responding to.
On top of that, in between that and Payne's comment, it brings up additional issues that Payne could be replying to. The first one talks about how Italy's new Prime Minister is a Tolkien fan, which, if that has anything to do with Payne's upcoming comment, would paint over half of Italy's population who voted for her as "patently evil," which seems like a bit of a stretch, even if you disagree with her vehemently. I don't think Payne is responding to that specifically, mind you, but given the broad nature of Payne's comment and the fact that the article gives us Payne's comment AFTER this, it certainly reinforces my previous point that Payne's comment is in reference to the broader issues at play within the fandom, and not to any specific targeted harassment.
The final paragraph before Payne's statement seems to relate even more directly: "Or take this fan’s complaint: A Tolkien adaptation is a “New Age politically correct girl-power garbage version of fantasy” that’s “raping the text.” That sounds like what’s populating Rotten Tomatoes and IMDb right now, but it was actually quoted in Wired magazine in 2001 for a story about Tolkien fandom’s reaction to Jackson’s The Fellowship of the Ring." Now, while this comment is clearly a bit overdramatic, it's not targeted harassment, and certainly isn't about racist comments directed toward the cast, because it's not even about this show. The purpose of this paragraph is to show that the article is currently talking about trends in the Tolkien fandom as a whole, not about any particular instances of harassment, and the implication from that is that the next paragraph, Payne's statement, is ALSO talking about the fandom as a whole. That implication, (in addition to the fact that Payne's statement never mentions targeted harassment, of course) is a big part of why people have largely taken the "patently evil" label as having been meant to apply to large swaths of the Tolkien fandom, as opposed to individual racist comments; the article goes out of its way to tie it to groups as broad as the majority of Italy's voters and people who didn't like the fact that they swapped out Glorfindel for Arwen.
(This is a continuation of the original comment, which I had to break in two)
Now, let's look at Payne's comment specifically: "Payne looks particularly distressed by the topic. “The spirit of Tolkien is about disparate peoples who don’t trust one another and look different from one another finding common ground in friendship and accomplishing big things,” he says. “That’s the spirit we’ve tried to inculcate into every single comma and period in the show. That this aspiration would be offensive to people and enrage them … it’s very hard for us to understand. What are they protecting? I don’t see how people who are saying these things think that they’re fighting for good. There’s a line in episode seven where Galadriel says every war is fought from without and within. Even if you’re fighting for something you think is good, if you do something worse in that fight, then you become evil. I don’t see how people who are saying these things think that they’re fighting for good. It’s patently evil.”"
(Man, I hate quotations that end in a quotation mark themselves. >.< )
As I've mentioned before, Payne never mentions racist comments directed at the cast, here, only people who are "offended by the spirit of disparate peoples finding common ground" that they tried to work into the show. That casts a VERY broad net over who he may be referring to, here. The article's writer doesn't help us narrow it down much, either; he simply says that Payne looks distressed by "the topic." As I've already discussed, "the topic," in terms of the context of the article thus far, is not simply about racist comments about the cast, it's about the overall controversy surrounding the show, and why Amazon censored reviews. The only person who ever mentioned targeted harassment is the article's writer, not Payne, and it was only as one minor point within a larger narrative about the controversy surrounding the show. The implication there is that "the topic," in this case, refers to this larger controversy.
Now, I'll admit that it's unfair to say that Payne is talking about ALL criticism of the show, since he specifically refers to people who don't understand that "spirit of disparate peoples finding common ground," but since that statement is, itself, so broad, I think it's absolutely fair to assume Payne is talking about "everybody who disagrees with their casting choices," here. That may not be ALL criticism of the show, but it's certainly a very broad swath of it, and one that a large portion of the people who hate the show for other reasons also agree with. And while you may not agree with people who dislike the casting choices due to inconsistency with the lore, and they may very well be making a mountain out of a molehill, they certainly aren't "patently evil."
It's also worth pointing out that Payne's statement is a strawman, which assigns a random motivation which no one actually holds (there is no one on the entire Internet, EVEN the people who have sent harassing comments to the cast, who has ever said, "I am offended by the spirit of disparate peoples finding common ground") to an unspecified group of people. Is it really so far out there to imagine that somebody who doesn't even have a problem with their casting choices, but who falls within the broader category of people who have issues with the show, a group which the article has been talking about for the past five or six paragraphs, might look at that statement and think, "wait, is Payne also assigning that supposed motivation to ME?" I'll admit, that's a bit of a leap in logic, but considering that it's being made in response to Payne's own leap in logic, I can totally understand why someone might think it, and the article gives them absolutely no reason to believe otherwise.
In short, yes, if you assume Payne is only talking about the people who harassed cast members, it's fair for him to call that "patently evil." But that's absolutely an assumption, and the article gives little to no context that should lead you to believe he's only talking about those few people, and quite a lot of context that should lead you to believe he's talking about a broader group. It may still be unfair to say he's talking about "all" critics of the show, but even the most charitable interpretation I can think of has him assigning that label to people who merely disagree with their casting choices, and I don't think the people with an even less charitable interpretation are making a bigger assumption than those who think he's only talking about the harassers, looking only at the context of the article.
Now, I get it, if we're going to have to make assumptions anyway, we should generally try to make the more charitable ones, especially when it's about something as innocuous as making a show you don't like. Hanlon's Razor, and all that. That's just the best way to ensure society functions without us being at each others' throats all the time. And I agree with you, the people demonizing Payne and McKay are guilty of more or less exactly the same thing they are accusing them of doing by calling them "patently evil." I'm just not seeing where you're getting any context from this article, specifically, that they're wrong. Understanding human nature and optimism might lead you to that conclusion, maybe, but not this article. This article is just trash.
Um, what exactly were the "racist" comments the actors were receiving? It was criticism about canon. Nothing racist about that. It was the showrunners and actors, both past and present, who decried as racist and small minded the fans who simply wanted what they were promised not reimagined Tolkien for the current day.
In a separate joint statement posted online, stars of the new streaming service adaptation said: "We, the cast of Rings of Power, stand together in absolute solidarity and against the relentless racism, threats, harassment, and abuse some of our castmates of colour are being subjected to on a daily basis."
I believe we need to arrive at a point where disagreement isn't instantly labeled as racism, harassment, or abuse especially without evidence. Disagreeing about a casting choice isn't racism its an opinion. I generally like your content, but I think you got it wrong here. Looking forward to your next video.
Hilary calling out the people who are drunk on copium, love it lol
This!
What’s a PSA. I’m guessing you’re not talking about prostate specific antigen. That’s what I get when I google it. 🙂
I’m surprised. Public service announcement haha. PSA has meant that forever I thought! At least it was popular in the 90s 🤷♀️
i dont disagree but what can we do when as you admitted yourself show makers disparage fans having opinions that are counter to what they want
Yes they do! But it doesn’t mean we should do the same thing is the point. I didn’t even like what Payne and McKay said in the article - but I also could recognize that they also weren’t calling people who criticized the show evil. Both can exist and SHOULD exist in discourse.
Love your reasoning....
However....
We have to watch what we say and be respectful of the showrunners who have blatantly disrespected the source material?
Okay.......
That was one article taken out of context. They did it with a series...
Racist comments directed at the cast are deplorable. Using same cast as a shield for the show, equally so (debatable). Now the show is over, same diverse cast are defending the show, not the Galadriel, Elrond, Isuldur, plus character actors. Weird....
Or am I patently evil for making this point?
I mean actually you are getting at the exact point I'm trying to make. That article I cited? It actually annoyed me a lot. I think it highlighted how inexperienced they are and I felt it was weird that the article was saying that LOTR brings in fascist fans. However, that also doesn't give me the right to misquote them to prove my point. I can use like...actual points from the article to say "They don't get it". And that's my only point - don't spread the easy thing - them saying "anyone who criticizes the show is patently evil" but use their actual meaning to really discuss it.
And yes it's annoying that they do it to fans, like I said in this video, but if we ALL misbehave, nothing changes. We can control ourselves and that's what I'm asking we do.
@@Bookborn I grew up during Apartheid South Africa and I have lived racism.
My race can only be found in South Africa.
After 30 years, Apartheid is still relevant. It is ignorant to believe anyone is immune to prejudice.
These adaptation coming from the US is an insult to my intelligence. Using race, gender or any other form of diversity, only increases prejudice and breeds hate...
I own my racism. I acknowledge I am and work on improving myself.
Being told I am inherently racist is the truth about everyone. We are all Prejudice. Especially those who try to label others.
Great video!
Fandom-menace's go crazy with misinfo just to bash a show or showrunners they hate.
These are tv shows, books, movies, etc. Not political campaigns!
The problem is people act this same way in political circles, where it is indeed VERY damaging 😭
@@Bookborn Agreed! That's why seeing the same type of toxic discourse transfer over to tv shows and showrunners is maddening.
I swear, just by the amount of smear campaigns, articles written with fake insider knowledge, and flat out lies that are connected to Kathleen Kennedy, you'd think she was running for POTUS. Lol
This! This is important. Criticism should be always constructive not hateful. Criticise someone's work and explain why you think it's bad, but do not criticise someone telling why he/she is a bad person, especially while you don't even know that someone. You can disagree with someone's opinion but do not villainize someone, just because he/she got different opinion than yours. Be civil.
yes! it's the moralizing that's so weird to me. I can hate rings of power without hating everyone involved.
but if we check our sources and find out that in fact, people *aren't* the monsters we want to paint them as, how will we ever release the unbridled rage that we have because Disa had no beard?
The problem is that the “racist” things that the showrunners claim are “patently evil” are actually not racist whatsoever, and therefore not patently evil. I’ve seen a lot of discussion regarding the Rings of Power and the race of the cast has been brought up numerous times. The problems that people have with this casting is the double standard in Hollywood that black-washing (or changing the race of white characters) is perfectly fine to do, however the inverse of changing characters to be white is never okay. We just want consistency.
So by labeling a vocal group of the LOTR fandom as “patently evil” for pointing out this hypocritical double standard is entirely missing the point. I’m not going to claim that there hasn’t been those attacks (I certainly haven’t seen them if that’s the case). It’s one thing to hate a character because of their race or attack an actor/actress based on their race. That is obviously racist and evil, but that is not what is happening here. The fandom really does not like, respect or care for the intentional politically and ideologically-driven decisions the showrunners have made with this property. There are many quotes directly from the showrunners, producers, and other employees of this show about the desire to have Tolkien be more “inclusive” and “reflect what the world really looks like”. Anyone who feels to need to change Tolkien for political or ideological reasons should not have access to Tolkien.
And don’t even try to come at me claiming that Tolkien’s legendarium is “vague” or that Middle Earth isn’t necessarily European-inspired fantasy. It 100% is. You wouldn’t say the same about Wakanda, Children of Blood and Bone, or the Burning Series for African-inspired fantasy. Or Avatar the Last Airbender, Jade City, or the majority of manga/anime for Asian-inspired fantasy. By the way, a lot of those properties I’ve just mentioned are getting live action adaptations (Avatar, Wakanda, Children of Blood and Bone, Jade City, etc.) and you see absolutely nobody claim we need to race-bend the cast to “reflect how the world really looks” (this is a paraphrased quote from Marianne Weber, a producer of Rings of Power). What people want is a faithful, respectful adaptation of the source material for those properties, which is all we wanted with Lord of the Rings.
Ok but see you are using this video to just talk about rings of power and what you didn’t like about it. And news flash - I didn’t like it either! But lying or misrepresenting what the show runners said gives them reason to ignore our real concerns! Because then they can claim “all fans are going over the top and lying”. It literally *doesn’t matter if you like the show or not. What matters is that we stop pretending people said things they didn’t just to prove a point*
A great example of this is I actually really dislike the article I quote. I think it’s poorly written in many ways and don’t like a lot of things the showrunners said. But that doesn’t give me the right to lie and say they said everyone who critiques the show is evil - because they didn’t say that.
@@Bookborn No no no, respectfully I don’t think you understood what I was saying. I specifically stated that the things they are calling “racist” and “patently evil” are not either of those things whatsoever and I was clarifying what the fandom’s positions were that the showrunners stupidly mistook as racist and patently evil. That was the point I was making in that comment. It wasn’t just me using it to vent my frustrations about the show. If anything, it’s actually the showrunners that are lying and misrepresenting what we are saying by claiming that we are somehow being racist and patently evil for pointing out the obvious double standard prevalent in Rings of Power (and by extension Hollywood).
And I’m also aware that you are not a fan of the show and never claimed that you were; I wasn’t coming after you at all. Even disregarding the larger conversation about the bastardization of Tolkien, the show by itself is an incoherent mess filled with poorly written characters, dialogue, plot lines, and so on. I’m glad both of us can see eye-to-eye on that. But I’m really sure I know what you mean when you say people are taking their words out of context or flat out lying. Like I said, the showrunners are the ones actually lying and misrepresenting what the fandom is saying. Besides, what they’re saying and doing is all for PR and use it as a way to market this poorly-received show.
It's a misinformation and words have been taken out of context, it's obviously true BUT what would you expect when Rings of Power is a battleground for this culture war that the west, America in particular is experiencing on a day to day basis. And let's be honest here - they (showrunners, directors, actors, legacy media) were the first who muddied the waters by starting to talk about diversity this, inclusion this, female empowerment this, the necessity of modern political messages etc. and IF you as a fan have s'mthing to say against it then you are mysoginistic, racist etc. all the magical words from the book (it's a disgrace how people use them so easily these days, it almost makes them cheap and loose their precise meaning). And this tactic is somehow similar with what you're pointing in your video, the showrunners are not willing to take into consideration or hear some opinions around these topics because you label them a certain way - it's like taking out of context someone's concerns who might be legitimate...then what do you expect when the "knives" have been taken out...of course you will be judged subjectively with every word you speak and taken out of context yourself. What you do to others don't cry when others do the same to you.
The problem is it doesn’t matter how the show runners have acted. I address this here - yes it’s annoying, and wrong, but it doesn’t mean we get to do it too. There are plenty of legit ways to critique the RoP showrunners - trust me I’ve done it plenty - so why are we relying on taking them out of context for something they didn’t say? Then we are just as bad as them
Give up
Give up what
@@Bookborn trying to defend the bastardization of Tolkien work.
Rop is woke garbage.
Did you also check the sources to see if the actors actually received racists comments???
First, they definitely did. I witnessed it with my own eyes even on comments to my own videos. Second, it’s not as wide spread as the showrunners like to say. Both can be true. But it doesn’t MATTER what the showrunners do, that’s the point. They can be as wrong as possible. But why is it ok for us to be wrong back? See about 2 min into my video when I address this.
@@Bookborn Can you provide an example of the racist comments that the actors received?
You should change the name of your channel to “Bookvictim”
the irony of you writing this comment on this video is absolutely hilarious