In my view, A Song of Ice and Fire strikes this perfect balance of realistic pessimism and grimdark tones, where betrayal, violence, and death feel as inevitable as winter. And yet, somehow, amidst all that darkness, there are these fleeting moments of beauty and hope that just catch me off guard-small acts of loyalty, love, and courage that feel so rare but so powerful. Martin’s world has this way of making the light feel brighter against all that shadow, and that’s why it hauntingly mirrors the harshness and resilience of real life.
To me, grimdark is without light, without hope. It's cynical and nihilistic.That's not what ASOIAF is. I read that series and I'm often filled with hope and broken by the tragedies that occur. To me, ASOIAF feels more aptly characterized as a grim, dark fantasy instead of a grimdark fantasy if that makes sense. It's not Warhammer 40k. It's follows much more traditional story beats.
@@danielrood264 Yeah, you are wrong about Grimdark. Literally zero hope is how you get what many 40K fans have termed "grimderp" instead of proper grimdark that they love. Yeah, the setting overall is incredibly dark and individual characters may not be able to affect much change by themselves. But while the universe, factions and institutions may be evil individual characters may still be good. And they rage against the dying of the light. While Space Marines might be the most popular faction there is a good number of very dedicated fans of the Imperial Guard. Because those are normal men and women who fight with all they have against the untold horrors, and sometimes even win.
Having studied history all my life (also with a degree...) I have to say that despite the lack of development in ASOIAFs history It is still waaaay superior to The First Law in terms of logic on historical society world building accounts. TFL has strong moments and twists and undeniable great characters (although sadly ending up in a very Mary Sue'd last trilogy) The world building of TFL is like an apprentice trying to equal a master. Not even close, in my opinion.
@@gokbay3057 Damn right. It REALLY annoys me when "grimdark" is made into a caricature. Sure, it's SUPPOSED to be dark and edgy, sometimes even to an absurd degree. But without a touch of humanity, a spark of hope, a dim reflection of light... the horror is diminished. If there's no hope, then how can we become invested and why would we care about the loss. Gaunt's Ghosts had me crying multiple times, as GOOD people are forced into unwinnable situations and yet still try their best. The world may be oppressive and hopeless... but people are still people. They learn to cope. They find what joy they can. The Emperor protects. (I did hate how Abnett ended it, and hope he continues it at some point) Caiphas Cain IS funny. And yet it still captures all of the hopelessness and horror (Cain and the Imperium just allowing the Tau to be infected with Genestealers because why NOT use the greatest threat to the galaxy as a weapon against a minor nuisance? Pretty grim stuff :P) The smaller series and standalone novels I've read all rely on this idea, and I'd be willing to bet that entries pushing too far into "grimderp" (first time I've seen it. love it) are all received worse.
One of the reasons ASOIAF is “low in magic” is that characters in the story do not take seriously the idea that something is magical or could be magical so even though a lot of magical things occur, the general sense in the world is that people don’t think of magic as a factor in their world
Thank u liene for blessing me with your presence today (but yes, now that you mention it, that is one of my favorite aspects that I didn't know how to put into words. It's in a similar vein to how the religions work in asoiaf imo too... you're never quite sure when a character prays and gets what they want if the gods are real, if it's magic, or if it's coincidence...)
I think the main reason why ASOIAF feels like there isn't much magic is because most of the magic in the book is written as horror. Instead of wizards throwing fireballs and lightning, you get cultist priest summoning shadow demons or blood sacrifice rituals. It's very much in the vain of Lovecraft or Robert E. Howard where the magic is the stuff of nightmares. Martin was hugely influenced by Lovecraft and it shows up in his world-building a lot.
@@JerodimusPrime Yeah, you're probably right. Martin himself has said that he loves Lovecraft and that his first fantasy author was Robert E. Howard (even before Tolkien) who also belonged to the Lovecraft circle. I think that even the way Martin narrates sex comes pretty much from Robert, as well as the lore from places like Sothoryos which is basically a place full of giant Conan The Barberian-like monsters
Abercrombie definitely gets credit for his humor, i’d say George doesn’t get much highlight for his humor at all. In fact, people will credit his characters for being funny more than him as an author which is interesting
@@chrisowenssff4876 Discworld (which I admittedly love) and First Law have very different humor styles tho. Discworld is more sarcastic/silly, while First Law actually has one liners. I never laugh out loud at Discworld, but I don't feel like I'm supposed to, either.
I think my favourite thing about ASOIAF is the hopefulness, To me, it permeates every pov, every chapter. No matter what the character is going through, no matter how high the stakes or how upsetting the situation, there is always a current of hope. A dream for that spring, a wish something will change. Tyrion spends most of ADWD depressed and suicidal and unkind. The closer he gets to Dany, the closer he gets to realizing some sort of shift in Westeros, even if for him would involve violence against his family, it gives him longing for the person he could be and things he could do with her. For that reason I have very little desire to read first law, simply because of how devoid of that hope it seems to be. I actually would not describe ASOIAF as grim dark, because of the optimism that is present, despite it all. Even if it is twisted to be not necessarily a 'good' kind longing, it is still there. A quote we have all quoted many times... "'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?' 'That is the only time a man can be brave,'" I swear this series is the reason I have been called a "very stubborn optimist" haha.
I literally just started The Blade Itself the other day and I feel I’ve never understood a character faster than Glokta’s first chapter. Abercrombie said nothing explicitly but told me EVERYTHING about who Glokta is
My personal book conspiracy is that GRRM has Joe prepped and ready to take over should he pass before ASOIAF is complete. It’s 100% just me making things up, but I think Joe is one of the few that could do it
@@destro6971it definitely wouldn’t be Joe completing more probable would be his helpers elio and Linda but I too believe he will have some plan for the future if he cannot finish!
@@destro6971 I still believe Daniel Abraham is the most likely to finish ASOIAF if Martin passes out with a previous authorization for someone to take the wheel. Abraham ruled it out before but: 1 • Martin doesn't like people talking about his death/finishing his work and Abraham, who's worked with him, respects that and would never say he would finish his mate's work without being asked by him; 2 • Abraham was still focused on writing the Expanse when he said he wouldn't be finishing it. The Expanse is finished so that isn't in the picture anymore.
War and Peace is one of my favorites and that comparison of the pov structure is actually pretty apt. I guess i really should continue with both these series.
I love how both authors admire each other. I will try Joe Abercrombie books for sure thank you for the recommendation. Thank you for not bashing GrrM, your fan base is one of the few i like when it comes to ASOIAF, i been avoiding bunch of other youtubers with their constant vigilant comments about the series endings
Wisdom of Crowds was kinda disappointing to me as a huge ASOIAF fan, I really loved "A Trouble with Peace" but seeing the revolution turn into such a shitshow with the world being much worse after it than before it, made me sad and I just don't understand why the author IMO cut so many corners when it comes to flushing out complex sociological situations. It felt like I was reading the book version of the Dark Knight rises
Great vid as always! While I love both series, Id have to day I prefer A Song of Ice and Fire. The main reason would probably be the historical complexity. Abercrombie's world isn't boring by any means, especially when you get to see Abercrombie explore social progression into the Age of Madness trilogy with a literal industrial revolution. Its just George's world just felt more alive to me, especially with Fire and Blood delving deep into the past. Not only does exploring it feel like a history class, it also felt more interesting than actual history.
I read the first law after ASOIF because GRRM himself said the first law was good. The man wasn't wrong. Best characters i've ever read. The heroes is the funniest book i've ever read. Gorsts internal monologue is so funny and relatable in ways to me lol. Might have to go back and read them again.
The Heroes is a masterpiece. I generally don't care about action scenes in books, I like the plotting and the aftermath... Thus, that book should not be my piece of cake on paper. I loved every moment of reading it.
@@SimplementInefable It's funny because it was the book I was dreading most in the series - a book only about a BATTLE? Battle scenes are my least favorite! And then it ended up being my favorite because of the way he wrote it
@@SimplementInefable The scene seeing Shivers from the other armies side was one of the best chapters of any book ive read ever. Easy to idolize a person when they're the main character, but seeing him baring down on you would probably change your view of him a bit lol.
Just about your comment on the Red Wedding - it was written so well and yes, it hurts a lot! I saw the scene from the tv series after I read this part in book (I didn't watch the entire show) and it reminded me the power of books and words because it was so powerful in the books, the way Martin wrote the last works of Catelyn, just until the end...
I love ASOIAF, while the world is brutal and dark, I don’t find the books as a whole depressing, there’re those small moments of hope that really shine brightly. The First Law I liked, but it’s not a favorite in the way that ASOIAF is because I find it much bleaker and depressing. I also like to have a bit more plot and complex world building
Yeah this is why I think ASOIAF hit me so much harder - the shining moments really do stick out and give you hope. Abercrombie's plotting never bothered me or lack of magic - I just saw it as very low fantasy and I think it works for the series - but yes, I also love magic lol
I recommend kuariland (the moonfinder) to you as well, as stated in comment above. slightly smaller but great ASOIAF world feel with a deep society and a Children of the Forest vs Empire setup.
Thanks Bookborn!! Wanted to mention re plot armor video from last time too: I thought The First Law was perfect, BUT the characters were all used so economically that I knew (SPOILER WARNING - kinda) that none of them would die in the end. In fact, the only times I was ever kinda (kinda) bored were the shanka vs Logan and Ferro action scenes! Because, obviously, nothing was going to happen to them. They mattered a lot to the plot. The trilogy is lean and mean, in direct contrast to ASOIF. The one downside of being so lean and tight is that you can't go any leaner, which I understand. ASOIF, on the other hand, gosh... (Thanks again!! Super happy to catch a Bookborn video before lunch; greetings from the UK!)
ooh I wish I could've mentioned the first law in that plot armor video (would've been too much of a spoiler for obvious reasons) but it's such a good example. Main characters RARELY die in his books, but it never feels like plot armor because everything else bad that could happen to them is happening to them 😂
(also SPOILER WARNING - kinda) The huge cast of ASOIAF/GOT makes character deaths more viable, especially once GRRM established that it aren't just side characters that can die. But the First Law trilogy to me had the same amount of tension. Not because I was afraid of the main characters straight up dying, but because what it would take them to survive. Abercrombie taught me that watching a character survive can be just as horrifying as watching them die.
Back again cuz I just finished. ASOIAF die hard but part of the reason I'm less enthralled by the first law after the first few chapters (on top of the fact that it does seem to be missing many aspects that asoiaf has) is the fact that I'm introduced to the characters in grim situations, and they seem very grey off the bat; in ASOIAF I feel like all the brutal moments hit so hard because all the grimness was built up, came by surprise, I was already attached to certain characters and loved some off the bat, etc...
13:36 when you put a little note about THAT wedding i started to get depressed again, thank you very much.... 😭😭😭 ("Yes. Robb, get up. Get up and walk out, please, please. Save yourself . . . if not for me, for Jeyne.’’ damn it, i hate that line cause eventually i love Catelyn so much 😭😭)
I like how both authors stay true to the setting. Medieval for GRRM and Early modern for first law. Low magic is just propaganda because there is a lot of magic. Magic literally made the verse in the first law and magic is in the veins of literally every valyrian in ASOIAF
Excellent video. Having read both series I think I agree with most of the points you made about both series. Not sure if I prefer one over the other. The First Law series may be much darker but it is much more "fun" to read as the humor is non-stop. The world of The Song of Ice and Fire is much more of a character in that series as are the cultural differences between people from other areas of the world. In the end The First Law series feels "English" and the "Song of Ice and Fire" feels "American". Big surprise, looking at the authors.
That's a good point. The humor is not only expressed differently but just generally have distinct vibes to them which you described perfectly. I do see what ppl mean when they say TFL is more grim than ASOIAF but my experience simply did not match that. There were some scenes in ASOIAF that made me cry lol which never happens to me and was actually a rather random scene (Arya after Ned has been imprisoned and she begins frantically repeating different iterations of Syrio's lessons while wandering about in Flea Bottom). Meanwhile his humor comes out in strange beats too like when I picture Daario's outfits or when Cersei reflects about random shit. In other words, it is exactly what you explained: so character-heavy that you identify more with the characters than with the story sometimes. That said, Abercrombie's humor is more subtle and consistent at all times, which made it more introspective, oddly lol. They're very good at making good use of unavoidable instances of utter contradiction in their novels. I would still choose ASOIAF because of how much denser everything is. It truly is a unique experience. But since you mentioned consistency with comedy, I also think Abercrombie's writing is better paced and more consistent, as in you sort of know when to expect the next story beat; I sometimes feel overwhelmed when reading GRRM and notice that his pacing fluctuates, almost erratically.
More than a decent comparison ! very precise, very nail on the head. But I get it you want to stay humble 😜 Now I want to re-read both, damn you ! (so many books so little time)
You know i screenshoted ambercromies wiki just a few days ago, and like clockwork, you drop video lol . Thank you so much. You definitely convinced me. Gonna pick up a copy of the first law today.
Just to chime in on the hopeful vs hopeless bit. I think it's also a very much a cultural thing, the americans generally tell stories that has a hero element incorporated in some way because they want someone to root for, whilst the English (or brits in general tbh) tell stories where everything is terrible and terrible things happen to the main character, almost looking at them like a peer. A good example of this is also UK vs US office. Or really any uk or us sitcom. Also, I read that the First Law world isn't fully done yet? Rumours of three more standalones and a final trilogy, I believe
Another thing, in the world of ASOIAF : we feel a resurgence of magic throughout the series because of Dany's hatchlings. The warlock's felt it, Obsidian candle lighting up ... Melisande and the red priests order. The white walkers reappearance.... Euron finding the Horn... In the Circle of the World however. It has been continuously in decline. Euz a godlike figure so powerful that he is separating the planes of existence. His four children completing against each others in a fratricide war in a lesser epic scales. Then the Magi order doing even less against Kanedias the master maker... Then the Bayaz vs Khalul through empires and the Eaters. Now magic is being replaced by banking and industry and the mages are ok with it even re-branding themselves. (I wouldn't be surprised if in the last trilogy of the First Law world all the mages get offed by the normies)
I´ve read The First Law once, and it was very good but it doesn´t invite me to read it again. ASOIAF on the other hand, I could read those books over and over again until I die, easily. Can´t explain why though. Sometimes you just have to read something again. It happened with Pedro Páramo by Juan Rulfo, it only have 130 pages, but I never get tired of it. The First Law doesn´t do that to me. ASOIAF does it.
In ASOIAF they also show the magic and progress of time struggling against each other. Magic isn’t going quietly into the Long Night, hence the birth of the dragons and some of the old spells working again.
On the low magic note, I agree that ASoIaF does have quite a lot of magical elements in it, be it dragons flying around or ice zombies invading from the north. I think what people really mean when they say that is that magic is more of a frontier element that is always doing its thing at the fringes of the world, but human civilization in Westeros is largely sheltered from it and operates entirely without like a real Middle Ages society. It’s to the point where many characters, including very smart people like Tyrion, don’t believe in magic at all. When magic does enter the story, it usually has the effect of pulling the rug out of someone’s feet, serving as an element of horror, fear of the unknown, and blowing the lid off the world that character knew to be real. And I can definitely see that carried over into first law
About book recommendations: there is a book series called Dark Star, written by Marlon James, which is supposed to be a trilogy but so far only has two books out. The story plays in an african inspired fantasy world and at it's centre lies the murder of a boy that has been witnessed by three people, all of whom are questioned by a person only refered to as "The Inquisitor" about said murder and each of the witnesses tells a different version of the events that transpired (one perspective per book) and how why they did so, with the Inquisitor (and by extension us) having to piece together the truth out of all the different storys
14:25 Preach! Like don't get me wrong, First Law is incredibly well written and the character work is second to none, but I just can't handle that depressive of a world for long. I need at least some hope and uplifting story beats in my escapism!
The way people who don't like dark books describe themselves when reading ASOIAF is how I felt while reading The First Law Trilogy. I felt pretty nihilistic.
About the theme of magic leaving the world. I believe that asoiaf has exactly the opposite theme. Magic is coming back into the world with the comet and the birth of Dany’s dragons. Examples that come to mind are the wildfire creation spells of the alchemist guild working better than expected and glass candles glowing again.
2:17 I think that Joe's taking a break with "First Law" to write "Devils", but he has plans to publish more books in this universe in the future. I read about it somewhere. :)
i want to start other fantasy series like first law but im in this perpetual cycle of “what if i dont like it as much as asoiaf” “its ok if you dont but maybe you will, never know until you read it” “but what if i dont like it as much as asoiaf”
I mean you might not like it as much as ASOIAF, but that won’t mean you don’t enjoy it! I have a couple series in my life that have consumed me completely they were so excellent. I find that very rarely. That doesn’t mean I haven’t loved and highly enjoyed other series, too!
You're actually who inspired me to pick up Abercrombie and I was pleasantly surprised by TFL trilogy. Despite indeed having far less plot than ASOIAF, it had a certain charm to it that felt super unique and prevalent throughout all three books. I also liked what I can only describe as Abercrombie's "restraint". He is impressively restrained in everything. Something ASOIAF sometimes struggles with when at its weakest, I think some of his scenes fall straight into pointless gratuity that I literally have to skip entire paragraphs of it. Well you know what I mean, like scanning through it just to move on. Whereas with Abercrombie, I don't even remember any scene that felt like that in TFL. That said, I could not agree with you any more regarding how underrated GRRM's use of magic is. It's like a beacon of light and energy in the novels. I literally think about the Ghost of High Heart all the time for some reason lol. Also, the House of Black & White has some of the best lines in the series. Magic plays a pivotal role in the plot, in a very relaxed way. It is in the details often, but that's honestly what makes it so cool and prevalent. In fact, I think my favorite part about ASOIAF is its creative use of magic. It basically blends both into religion and politics, which is just pretty cool world-building. I also like how the magic is never explicitly made out to be evil or good; it simply varies depending on the situation and context. Regarding TFL, I loved the deconstruction of Tolkienism. It was surprisingly overt but not in a condescending way, despite the fact that it literally inverts so much about the LOTR, which I suppose shouldn't have surprised me that much but still. I thought he walked a pretty humble tightrope between paying homage and low-level parody. This brings me neatly along to the final point is that they both make excellent use of comedy. GRRM pours the comedy into his characters in a way that almost feels like it's not supposed to be funny, even though it obviously is in retrospect. Whereas Abercrombie pours his comedy into the plot and story beats instead. Which make otherwise boring scenes actually kinda funny in a meaningless sort of way. I mean the most obvious example is how shamelessly The First of the Magi (What a funny character btw lol) literally pass through the ruins to reach what was expected to be some tide-turning device only to discover it was nothing. Speaking of which, one of the last scenes in Last Argument, Jezal is torn to shreds by this awful wave of rage that overcomes Bayaz. That's another scene in my mind that serves as a good example of how comedy is essential in darkgrim books. That scene, despite being utterly depressing at first, becomes funny the more you think about where Jezal originally began in the first book. Likewise, West, becomes utterly wretched. And in a sort of mirror fashion, so does Ardee, but in her own fashionable way that somehow kept her dignity intact unlike all the other anti-arcs as I see them lol. They only work because they're soaked in irony and humor. Lastly, my main disagreement. Maybe it's because I re-read Norse Mythology, but I actually think ASOIAF was in the direction of ending on just as bleak a note as TFL. Like yes I do get what you mean about hope being a theme very present in ASOIAF. But in a way, I interpret it as set up for us to have our hearts torn out like he repeatedly does. In fact, I think ASOIAF will end just as bleakly as TFL. That's perhaps an exaggeration, esp after thinking about Abercrombie's character arcs lol. ASOIAF is a mixed bag in terms of its messaging. And contrary to popular belief, I can think of several coherent ways for the story to end. He hasn't written himself into a corner. But at the end of the day, a story does rely heavily on its ending and ASOIAF simply does not have one, unless you take the one from the show which I suspect is much closer to his real personal ending than fans would like to admit. That said, I can't see how the story won't end on at least a cynical note. One of the most interesting and in my opinion logical endings would be the ultimate subversion of expectations: having the Others win in the war for the dawn. It sounds extreme yes but it makes sense thematically and narratively. It would also resolve any plot holes or contrivances in the political landscape that appear daunting in scope (like Jon for example). It would be utterly bleak though. This is why I kinda laugh when I hear about Jaime's redemption arc continuing to the end. I think he'll at least be given the opportunity to go heroically. Same for Theon, a good ending mayhaps. It's not what we wanna hear but idk, how else would this come to an end? Also, Bran effectively losing all humanity to become an evil tree king is pretty similar thematically to me, especially if Dany turns mad and is done away with as is the case in the show (which would be the logical deconstruction of the Return of the King Aragorn). Also, I do think Sansa & Arya are being set up as misguided teens who will mature into politically-minded and revenge-driven, respectively. Question: Do you think Abercrombie could pull off a convincing end to ASOIAF? If so, then I'll read AOM
I want you to know I wrote and dated a note in my note apps that said "Kyle will comment on the book title and my correct or incorrect saying of them in his comment". I hope you enjoy being PREDICTABLE
Read both. ASOIF takes the cake for me. I liked First Law, but the one element I felt it was really missing that ASOIF knocks out of the park is the political intrigue. The scheming and weaving of this driving the plot is so superbly done. First Law really doesn’t have that aspect (at least not in the first trilogy or first 3 stand-alones that I read).
Ironically the last trilogy actually has the most political weaving of the entire first law lol so I think you’ll enjoy it. But ultimately I agree with you that Martin is better at that aspect for sure!
Small correction: although ASOIAF is definitely low in magic overall compared to fantasy as a whole, I think its made clear that what we're witnessing over the course of the series is the returning of magic to a world that has been long without it, exemplified by the return of dragons and the lighting of the glass candles for example. I also completely agree that ASOIAF is definitely not grimdark: GRRM is really a romantic who I think is not interested in exempting his characters from tragedy, nor creating a world without heroes and hope, but rather having his characters go forward profoundly changed by their experiences, for better or for worse. Anyway, loved the video! I'll definitely check of The First Law series, as a professional sadboi myself im not too bothered with an even darker turn.
Appreciate the comparison. Perhaps I'll check out The First Law. I could use something to alleviate my decade long ASOIAF withdrawals. By the way, and you may have heard this already, but George R.R. Martin has described the tone he's going for with the ending of ASOIAF as "bittersweet."
While it will hopefully be better executed, the ending of ASoIaF is 100% the same as GoT in the broad strokes, so we known how dark it is going to get in action if not in spirit. And you can make the same events seem very different based on how you tell them.
I’ve listened to both series. 2x for ASFIAF and 3x for Abercrombie. I prefer Abercrombie because of his humor and I like the characters more. Both are top 5 series. I rank them above the Lord of the Rings.
I thInk First Law is more nakedly ironic/subversive in its tone. Abercrombie intentionally sets up the classic tropes of fantasy only to deliberately rip the rug out from under them. It seems to be almost a parody of traditional fantasy. While Asoiaf subverts classic fantasy tropes, it seems to go about it in a more straightforward manner while earnestly telling a traditional-ish story.
I never read the G.R.R. Martin books but have read and loved the First Law books. The “magic” in 1st Law was money/gold. I think that’s the clear message at the end of the first three books. And that was realistic and phenomenal. I don’t really like Best Served Cold (with the ridiculously powerful whaman! main character) but The Heroes and Red Country (fantasy with swords Western novel) were pretty great. The last three books are sitting in a large stack of TBR books and I can’t wait to get to them. I’ll probably never read ASOIAF because I’ve seen and heard too much of the tv show and I hate things with dragons. Good video 👍🏻
In general, I'd say I love asoiaf more. It's a more complex and intricate, and with a bigger scope. The political aspect which is mixed with magical elements like dragons is just second to none. And while both have great characters which are fascinatingly written, I think first law has one or two higher highs in terms of characters. I fucking enjoy reading Glokta so much.
So I absolutely love them both, and of course there are plenty of similarities between the two as you describe (though as you say, First Law is, for the most part, a lot grimmer). The thing that separates them for me is re-readability and, for lack of a better word, depth. I know that sounds like I'm saying that ASOIAF is in some way more profound or worthy than First Law, but really I don't mean it that way. Abercrombie's novels are fantastic on a first readthrough, and perfectly enjoyable on a second or third, but you don't pick up much more the more times you read them. ASOIAF, on the other hand... I think I might have enjoyed some subsequent reads of the series more than my first. Every time you pick up on details you missed before, things that might completely change your perspective on a character or the story. There's a reason there are countless threads on Reddit and entire forums dedicated to analysing the series, along with hundreds of RUclipsrs making a living spouting theories that have become more and more batshit as time goes on. Yes, this is partly because of the massive popularity of the series (and the show), as well as the amount of time since the last book, but it's also a feature of the novels and the amount of foreshadowing and detail there is to dig into. Again, I love Abercrombie and First Law, I think he's a genius in his own way and would heartily recommend his books to any ASOIAF fan. I would also point out that Abercrombie is still very much writing and, for the most part, his books have improved with each publication. I wouldn't bet against, in future, Abercrombie writing something on par with ASOIAF, but, for me, he's not quite there yet.
I always tell people I think first law is way more niche than most people let on, especially compared to ASOIAF. Going to go into some spoilers for the first trilogy… . . . The fact that the story ends where basically nothing has changed and everything is awful makes it far more grim than asiaf as you pointed out. It’s also a testament to what a great writer Abercrombie is that not only do I not hate that ending, I think it is actually brilliant for the series. It’s like you go on a huge hero’s journey only to realize that not only are you not really the hero, you’re not even really the villain, you’re just kind of nothing. And also you might have accidentally had sexual relations with someone who was threatened into it. I won’t get into the details of the show, but I think this is the kind of ending the showrunners were going for and it just doesn’t work. There is a lot of hope within ASOIF and we’re rooting for the heroes, so they should win even if it’s not a clean victory. By the way, as a life hack, if you get HBO through Amazon, you can use Vidangel to skip the bad stuff in the show. That’s how I watched it back in the day (coming from a fantasy obsessed Mormon dad). Seems like most of the naughty content is in the first couple seasons and then they started to chill out once their actresses started getting a bit more indispensable. It’s actually kind of sad when you hear Emilia Clarke (Dany) talk about how she was pressured into doing scenes she wasn’t comfortable with and she didn’t feel she could say no. That’s pretty yucky to me. That makes them perfectly skippable if you ask me!
I started first law because of this actually, but I disagree with people’s comparison. While there is definitely strong character writing element, the plotting didn’t feel as strong to me nor the world building and it just didn’t have that particular GOT flavor. I actually think Red Rising, particularly the sequel series aka book 4 and onward is a better recommendation for GOT lovers. PS: I saw that you DNFd Red Rising a while ago, I recommend giving it another try. It definitely pays off in my opinion.
Yep. Read the FLT and, while the characters were very solid, the plot was just ok and the world building was pretty lacking. It made me hesitant to start reading Robbin Hobb, who's also mentioned a lot with the other two.
@@abdullahisayuti6698 yea that is understandable but I think that the central character focus actually enhances the multiple pov we get later on cause after being so invested in Darrow and his crew, we are suddenly pulled into heads of other characters and see completely different perspectives which really shifts the dynamic of the events. To me this perfectly replicates the feeling I get in GOT when Martin does unreliable narrator stuff with Cersei. Or someone like Jaime.
Admittedly I haven’t read the second half of red rising, but I’ve heard it’s EXTREMELY dark, so I think it would still have that Abercrombie thing of not blending enough hope
I've tried a lot of different series that often get compared to ASOIAF, but the only one that actually managed to scratch that itch was J.V. Jones's "Sword of Shadows" series.
Because you loved Fire and Blood, you quickly need to get to Aerys II's chapter in AWOIAF. GRRM's prose makes even the Mad King believable and somewhat empathetic.
I have consumed a ton of SFF books. GRRM and Joe Abercrombie are the unquestionable Kings of dialogue in the genres. I really havent read anyone close to either of them.
What I find strange about First Law is that I don’t always find it completely hopeless? Overall, things don’t really work out, but then you have these individual moments of characters succeeding in their goals, even if it comes at a high cost. I just think about Orso in Age of Madness and the change he brought in a lot of other characters, despite how much was working against him. If/When we continue seeing more First Law books, I wonder how the events of Age of Madness will affect the world and if maybe we will see a resolution that isn’t as bleak 😅 a man can dream.
Abercrombie gets points for actually finishing his series, but honestly George’s books are in a completely different league. I found the First Law books to be really enjoyable, but the ASOIAF books are legendary. S tier vs. A tier in my opinion.
@@Bookborn It is incredible! Expectations tend to ruin people's experience, though. You have to resist the urge to say "ah, so THAT'S what the story is about, and just go on the journey
I’ve only read Abercrombie's first trilogy, so take this with a grain of salt. I like The First Law trilogy, but I love A Song of Ice and Fire (ASOIAF). I really appreciate how The First Law delivers such well-executed storytelling-it’s well-written, with great characters, and explores its themes in depth. I can see that it’s excellent, but I just can’t love it-it’s too depressing for me. On the other hand, ASOIAF is also brilliantly executed, but it makes me feel good in its own way. At the end of the day, it’s still a hero’s story. Sometimes, it even feels like a more grounded version of a Sanderson book, haha. I just wanted to point out that although both series are similar, they have very different tones. I still plan to keep reading Abercrombie’s work, but I’m waiting until I have a bit more happiness in reserve 😂.
They are both two of my favorite series of all time, but i think the other thing that ASOIAF doesn't get a whole lot of credit for when being compared with FL is that the world and specifically political machinations are all very strong and up front. I think for me it's why ASOIAF gets the bump up, despite it being unfinished. Not necessarily an ability or vibe thing, though. Probably falls within what you said for plot.
Agree with so much of what you say. Have only read The First Law (not his other series), but i am seriously considering them once i finish Malazan. I have read Asoiaf (and all other related book) multiple times. Both are excellent series, but i prefer asoiaf a bit more. What i think sets asoiaf apart is how deeply it looks into both small and large consequencs of actions. It has literally changed how i approach complicated situations as often there is no magic bullet or perfect solution. I think of decisions made throughout the books that don't follow the traditional trope of sword kills bad guy. One of my favorite illustrations of this is in Dany's arc in books 3 and 5. Spoilers for storm of sword and dance with dragons: Dany's arc is book 3 feels so triumphant and uplifting. While at times brutal, she is clearly trying to do the right thing in freeing the slaves. Book 5 shows despite that, she did not "defeat slavery" and she still needs to find ways to push for a better situation. She has to find naunced and often imperfect solutions, like marrying Hizdar. When Hazzea's body is laid before Dany, you feel that so deeply because you know in your heart that Dany is trying to do the right thing. Her chaining 2 of her dragons shows that she is willing to try things to better the situation for Mereen and is also obviously symbolic of her suppressing her "mother of dragons" persona while in leaning into more diplomatic solutions. This also has downsides as without her dragons, the sons of the harpy and old slave masters feel like they can push her around. Again, no perfect answer. Love your perspective on these things
Hey Bookborn, as someone who is planning to read the ASOIAF books, (I have watched both shows so I am a big fan) and has bough all the books you have reviewed so far, I also find myself wanting to get to the Stormlight Archive. Do you think you could explain the similarities and differences between the two? I'm curious how they are similar and different in terms of characters and how one who is familiar with ASOIAF but not Stormlight might find the latter series interesting.
@@drewby3346 She made a video explaining that there is a specific element to both series that makes her love them both, but I'm more curious in a "expect this but not this but also Stormlight has this,' kind of explanation. ASOIAF isn't Stormlight so I basically want to know what I am getting into as to not judge it unfairly happing to capture some ASOIAF that may or may not be there.
Well I LOOOVE the Stormlight Archive so I'm never going to say no to someone starting that! (ASOIAF and SA are now my two favs actually lmao). Stormlight Archive is much more heroic in tone than ASOIAF - Sanderson is all about the hope, and the promise of change. Sanderson's series is also much more magical, as it focuses much more on the details of magic and makes it almost scientific. Additionally, Sanderson's prose is very straightforward - it's to serve the story, and it's not considered at the same level as Martin's, who is really just like fantastic at prose. That said, both series deal wonderfully with deep, complex characters going through difficult things; both are so good at really highlighting the inner struggle of who we are and who we wish to be. Martin's works will take a darker, sadder tone.
@@Bookborn Thanks for the reply! While I love ASOIAF, having a more cheerfully and magical/fantastical alternative to switch between and compare definitely sounds like something I would enjoy. Once I finish ASOIAF I will definitely buy the first Stormlight book, but not before because I have been pushing Ice and Fire back way too long! 😅
I’ll be honest i always thought George wrote 3 great books and 2 decent novels in his series. I think he lives off those early books but I do love his Dunk and Egg stories. Abercrombie wrote 3 good books first and then really found his groove with the stand alone’s. Which I like as their own unofficial Trilogy. And his short stories and new trilogy are all top quality as well I think ASOF hits higher highs and I think the First Law is much more consistent. Both great series but I’m much more excited about Joe’s career than George’s
It’s still planned! It’s just something I care a lot about and want to do well, so I’m waiting for when I actually have time to sit down and craft it. I’m hoping soon!
I haven't realized people don't see Martin as funny... outside of general comedy books, he's one of the funniest authors out there! Especially given his subject material!
So I've read and reread ASOIAF, it's by far my favorite series. I've read the first four books of the First Law, and I agree with most of your assessment - Abercrombie is a fantastic writer of a similar caliber and style to George, but funnier and a lot less hopeful. I also think that Abercrombie writes much better action scenes - they're a lot more visceral, entertaining, and, for me, it's a lot easier to form an image of what's physically happening. But I think he overuses this talent, at times - just like in movies, too many or too long of action sequences can start to drag. Then, with characters - I agree with you that they both write *incredible* POV characters, but I think George is WAY better at populating his world with fully fleshed out side characters. I feel almost no connection to, or even any real understanding of, any Union bureaucrats or military officers or court members other than our POV characters. There are some secondary characters - those in Logen/ Dogman's party in the North, Bayaz and the other wizards - who are interesting and feel thought out, but a lot of other characters feel more like plot devices and caricatures. On the other hand, the entirety of George's secondary characters - whether it's any of the Five Kings, or Tywin Lannister, Little finger and Varys in Kings Landing, or Jeor Mormont, Bowen Marsh, and Mance Rayder at the Wall, or Illyrio, Jorah, Drogo, and Hizdahr in Dany's story - they feel like *people,* with rich internal lives and histories. Even much more tertiary characters, like Roose Bolton or Oberyn/ Ellaria/ The Sand Snakes, Mirri Maaz Duur, Craster, Walder Frey, Wyman Manderly, Lysa Arryn, even Ilyn Payne in book 5 - there's just so much going on with these people! And that leads me to my next point... Politics in ASOIAF is way more interesting, because I feel like all these characters, even those I can barely see around the outskirts of a scene, have complex motivations and perspectives about what's happening in the world. When I think of the current Northern plotline, I feel like I really have to ask myself, like "What is Kyle Condon's understanding of what happened at the Red Wedding? How much do the Ryswells trust Wyman Manderly, or Whoresbane Umber?" It really feels like there are a million moving pieces. Thus far, in The First Law series, each new political situation feels like there's two or three sides, and one ending is beneficial towards Bayaz' cause and other(s) aren't. It's still very fun, but I don't get the sense of "wheels within wheels" that's led to me thinking about ASOIAF nonstop for over a decade. One point I definitely disagree with you on, though - I feel like there's way more Tolkein-esque magic in The First Law! Like, yes, the Others are coming, and the Children of the Forest are like magical nature elves, and we have Warlocks in Qarth and blood magic with Mirri and magical indestructible swords and glass candles - but the First Law Trilogy ends with a straight up massive wizard battle with telekinesis and super speed and magically summoned tornados. It felt like the end of a high fantasy video game or epic DnD campaign. I don't think it detracted from his world, but it felt wayyy more traditionally magical than ASOIAF
You're one of the only people I've seen confirm my conviction in how Tolkien-esque many segments of the story felt. I see them as overt but respectful and lighthearted deconstructions of Tolkien's legacy. Whereas GRRM likewise sought to intellectually challenge Tolkien's legacy more subtly but also more seriously if that makes sense. I think he was partly successful imo, though LOTR is still the superior work and GRRM's difficulty wrapping his thesis is more proof that he didn't finish his thesis. That said, I actually appreciate TFL for being as straightforwardly brazen as it was in its deconstruction of Tolkien tropes. It didn't feel like an actual rebuttal to Tolkien and instead felt more like homage with heavy irony, bordering on parody but somehow not disrespectful to Tolkien; a testament to his subtle but excellent skills in humor. It was also more unapologetic which felt refreshing. GRRM presumably began to overextend his ideas in his more ambitious attempt at challenging modern fantasy. Without an ending, it really is difficult for a verdict to be made. TWOW should contain enough foreshadowing and clues necessary to make reasonably broad stances on his mission but as the story currently stands, it's at a crossroads, and thus thematically vague. I love all 3 authors' works but yeah cool how they feed off each other. Magic does affect the plot more overtly in TFL trilogy but ultimately in a way that kind of trivializes/normalizes it, more than in Westeros. The use of magic in ASOIAF reflects GRRM's atheist but all-connecting philosophy he has. If you reread chapters in search of cryptic messages among all the shades of magic in the world you'll quickly realize just how grand in scale magic is thematically, I think the relative lack of belief in its various forms by the general population is deliberate, effectively hiding true power in plain sight, disguised as coincidence, religious institutions, and even personal dreams/memory. I suppose it depends on how you define magic. Anyway great points.
@@parkersenders4446 Also, I must confess that I do not remember tornadoes being summoned? And the only reason I am suddenly wary is because I didn't want to get caught reading it at work so I bought them on Audible as well. So almost half, but definitely about a third of the three books in total were consumed audibly. More importantly, it was my first time using Audible whatsoever and I actually struggled with it. I couldn't focus on what and had to actively make an effort to get through each chapter. On the bright side, it made me more open-minded to Audible. Anyway since you can't "scan" through certain battle/graphic scenes the way you can while actually reading it physically, that means I had to use the 10s fast-forward, more than I should have in retrospect. But I do know I likely missed some good lines and there was one particularly long chapter in which everything comes together before their triumph I suspect the reason I don't remember the tornados was because I skipped too often. Or perhaps fell asleep. Makes me a bit sad.
Read the first law it was great, waiting on Martin to finish then I’ll read it. I don’t want to go down the same road I did with king on the dark tower waiting years half way through for the next book.
I think the biggest difference that you didn’t mention here is ASOIAF is a long, slow, massive and super detailed book series whereas First Law is a short and fast paced movie type experience.
I Bookborn!! I hope you are having a good time and a good fall reading whatever it is you're reading at the moment!! You still need to 'read' The World of Ice and Fire' its far from a novel, but it is so SO informative similar to Fire & Blood, and although it's not as good and kinda different. What I mean is it covers the early dynasty of the Targaryens like Fire & Blood, but it also covers the whole ass universe, including ALL the major houses and every corner of the known world. I am telling you, one cannot claim that ASOIAF was your new personality without reading The Silmarillion of Westros and beyond. Take care and happy reading!! P.S. please I am begging you to watch the show, at the very least watch the first 5 seasons. I would LOVE to get your reaction. I love seeing the show through brand new eyes.
In asoiaf magic is actually being reintroduced into the world. So the upcoming books will be more magical not less. The birth of dragons is what is making magic resurge. All of dany chapters increase in magic, tbh.
Im a HUGE ASOIAF fan, series means so much to me but I want to get into some more fantasy, have been debating whether I should get into The First Law or the Stormlight Archive first. After watching this video I think more leaning more towards the former, but which would you recommend first??
I've got all five ASOIAF books on my shelves. Loved it at the beginning, a little less so as it went on, and I've about given up on ever seeing the end of it. Overall, like it, but not among my most favorite series anymore. First Law I started, but didn't even make it through the first book. Got about 1/3 of the way in, realized I didn't like or care about any of the characters, and there was no discernable overall plot to keep me going, so I dropped it. May go back one of these days to be sure it wasn't just me having a bad day, but as of now, too grimdark for my tastes, I guess.
I’m a massive History fan and primarily focus on reading history books which really causes ASOIAF to resonate with me and I’m now obsessed with ASOIAF and GRRM. The themes , analogues, depths and complexities fascinated me. Problem is, I feel really basic when it comes to fiction, is there some other works or authors that are contemporary or recommendable for someone entering Fiction the way I am?
@@BookbornActually doesn’t have to be Fantasy at all. I’m reading GRRMs Fevre Dream based in the 19th century and it still hits the spot. I just really appreciate when the writer respects their characters and their complexities.
I mean it's not recommended for newer fantasy enjoyers to delve into it but Malazan seems to be exactly what you're looking for. It's scope is massive and has actual magic system and wide array of characters and feels like history books not to mentione that writer Steven Erikson was actual Archaeologist and you can really see it in his books. But do it at your own peril, this series is a behemoth.
In ASOIAF, until the Comet, the world had lost most of its magic. During the events of the books, though, it is undergoing a resurgence. I think it is part of that underlying hope but also foreshadows calamity.
Thanks for this one!! You have done your duty and given me sufficient info to know that I don't need to read the First Law series =D I came in to this video not knowing much about it, but hoping that it would be maybe slightly less dark and maybe slightly less sexually explicit than ASoIaF as those are my main two issues with the aforesaid. Well alas. Guess no First Law for me. Appreciate your service!!
Im reading First Law right now and i'm sorry but it's nowhere near what Martin created. I'm starting Last Argument(yeah, it's the best one i know) and comparing first two ASOIAF books to the Abercrombie is brutal. Even if the Last Argument is as good as everybody says let's not forget that third book of ASOIAF is Storm of fucking Swords. We are doing a lot of harm to the First Law by comparing it to Martin
I've seen many people recommend the First Law books, but I just haven't been able to get into them. I've tried to read the first one probably two or three times now and I just can't get more than a few pages into it before I lose interest. I'm not sure why.
As much as everyone says they love the first chapter, I also wasn’t hooked immediately. Maybe try again when you’re in the mood for something that starts slow. I do think it’s worth it!
As much as everyone says they love the first chapter, I also wasn’t hooked immediately. Maybe try again when you’re in the mood for something that starts slow. I do think it’s worth it!
Yeah, these 2 series aren't really similar at all. It's hard to get another series anywhere similar to A Song of Ice and Fire. They are both fantastic, but certainly different.
In my view, A Song of Ice and Fire strikes this perfect balance of realistic pessimism and grimdark tones, where betrayal, violence, and death feel as inevitable as winter. And yet, somehow, amidst all that darkness, there are these fleeting moments of beauty and hope that just catch me off guard-small acts of loyalty, love, and courage that feel so rare but so powerful. Martin’s world has this way of making the light feel brighter against all that shadow, and that’s why it hauntingly mirrors the harshness and resilience of real life.
Beautifully stated.
To me, grimdark is without light, without hope. It's cynical and nihilistic.That's not what ASOIAF is. I read that series and I'm often filled with hope and broken by the tragedies that occur. To me, ASOIAF feels more aptly characterized as a grim, dark fantasy instead of a grimdark fantasy if that makes sense. It's not Warhammer 40k. It's follows much more traditional story beats.
@@danielrood264 Yeah, you are wrong about Grimdark.
Literally zero hope is how you get what many 40K fans have termed "grimderp" instead of proper grimdark that they love. Yeah, the setting overall is incredibly dark and individual characters may not be able to affect much change by themselves. But while the universe, factions and institutions may be evil individual characters may still be good. And they rage against the dying of the light. While Space Marines might be the most popular faction there is a good number of very dedicated fans of the Imperial Guard. Because those are normal men and women who fight with all they have against the untold horrors, and sometimes even win.
Having studied history all my life (also with a degree...) I have to say that despite the lack of development in ASOIAFs history It is still waaaay superior to The First Law in terms of logic on historical society world building accounts.
TFL has strong moments and twists and undeniable great characters (although sadly ending up in a very Mary Sue'd last trilogy) The world building of TFL is like an apprentice trying to equal a master. Not even close, in my opinion.
@@gokbay3057
Damn right.
It REALLY annoys me when "grimdark" is made into a caricature.
Sure, it's SUPPOSED to be dark and edgy, sometimes even to an absurd degree. But without a touch of humanity, a spark of hope, a dim reflection of light... the horror is diminished. If there's no hope, then how can we become invested and why would we care about the loss.
Gaunt's Ghosts had me crying multiple times, as GOOD people are forced into unwinnable situations and yet still try their best. The world may be oppressive and hopeless... but people are still people. They learn to cope. They find what joy they can. The Emperor protects. (I did hate how Abnett ended it, and hope he continues it at some point)
Caiphas Cain IS funny. And yet it still captures all of the hopelessness and horror (Cain and the Imperium just allowing the Tau to be infected with Genestealers because why NOT use the greatest threat to the galaxy as a weapon against a minor nuisance? Pretty grim stuff :P)
The smaller series and standalone novels I've read all rely on this idea, and I'd be willing to bet that entries pushing too far into "grimderp" (first time I've seen it. love it) are all received worse.
One of the reasons ASOIAF is “low in magic” is that characters in the story do not take seriously the idea that something is magical or could be magical so even though a lot of magical things occur, the general sense in the world is that people don’t think of magic as a factor in their world
Also think it's a factor (for the same reason) that many of the substantial subplots could exist without magic as a driving factor
Thank u liene for blessing me with your presence today (but yes, now that you mention it, that is one of my favorite aspects that I didn't know how to put into words. It's in a similar vein to how the religions work in asoiaf imo too... you're never quite sure when a character prays and gets what they want if the gods are real, if it's magic, or if it's coincidence...)
@@Bookbornhey, someone was talking about First Law so the bat signal was on, the beacons were lit, my ears were burning 😂
I think the main reason why ASOIAF feels like there isn't much magic is because most of the magic in the book is written as horror. Instead of wizards throwing fireballs and lightning, you get cultist priest summoning shadow demons or blood sacrifice rituals. It's very much in the vain of Lovecraft or Robert E. Howard where the magic is the stuff of nightmares. Martin was hugely influenced by Lovecraft and it shows up in his world-building a lot.
@@JerodimusPrime Yeah, you're probably right. Martin himself has said that he loves Lovecraft and that his first fantasy author was Robert E. Howard (even before Tolkien) who also belonged to the Lovecraft circle. I think that even the way Martin narrates sex comes pretty much from Robert, as well as the lore from places like Sothoryos which is basically a place full of giant Conan The Barberian-like monsters
Abercrombie definitely gets credit for his humor, i’d say George doesn’t get much highlight for his humor at all. In fact, people will credit his characters for being funny more than him as an author which is interesting
Wait that is a funny notice 🤣 George’s characters come to life so much people forget he’s the funny one 🤣
The few Discworld books I read were okay, but never had me LOLing like the First Law series.
@@chrisowenssff4876 Discworld (which I admittedly love) and First Law have very different humor styles tho. Discworld is more sarcastic/silly, while First Law actually has one liners. I never laugh out loud at Discworld, but I don't feel like I'm supposed to, either.
I love this 😂
@Bookborn im one of those freaks that cant stop laughing out loud at discworld, but i do agree that its more clever co.mentary than explicit jokes.
I think my favourite thing about ASOIAF is the hopefulness, To me, it permeates every pov, every chapter. No matter what the character is going through, no matter how high the stakes or how upsetting the situation, there is always a current of hope. A dream for that spring, a wish something will change.
Tyrion spends most of ADWD depressed and suicidal and unkind. The closer he gets to Dany, the closer he gets to realizing some sort of shift in Westeros, even if for him would involve violence against his family, it gives him longing for the person he could be and things he could do with her.
For that reason I have very little desire to read first law, simply because of how devoid of that hope it seems to be. I actually would not describe ASOIAF as grim dark, because of the optimism that is present, despite it all. Even if it is twisted to be not necessarily a 'good' kind longing, it is still there. A quote we have all quoted many times... "'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave,'"
I swear this series is the reason I have been called a "very stubborn optimist" haha.
I literally just started The Blade Itself the other day and I feel I’ve never understood a character faster than Glokta’s first chapter. Abercrombie said nothing explicitly but told me EVERYTHING about who Glokta is
These are by far my two favorite fantasy series, really looking forward to watching this!
Say One Thing for Joe Abercrombie... say he knows how to complete a series.
My personal book conspiracy is that GRRM has Joe prepped and ready to take over should he pass before ASOIAF is complete. It’s 100% just me making things up, but I think Joe is one of the few that could do it
@@destro6971it definitely wouldn’t be Joe completing more probable would be his helpers elio and Linda but I too believe he will have some plan for the future if he cannot finish!
@@destro6971 I still believe Daniel Abraham is the most likely to finish ASOIAF if Martin passes out with a previous authorization for someone to take the wheel. Abraham ruled it out before but:
1 • Martin doesn't like people talking about his death/finishing his work and Abraham, who's worked with him, respects that and would never say he would finish his mate's work without being asked by him;
2 • Abraham was still focused on writing the Expanse when he said he wouldn't be finishing it. The Expanse is finished so that isn't in the picture anymore.
It’s true, you’ve got to be realistic about these things (ASOIAF will likely never be finished)
OH BURN
Martin takes more of a grimdark Arthurian tone using hope within tragedy. The only hope in Abercrombie is that of one region's independence.
War and Peace is one of my favorites and that comparison of the pov structure is actually pretty apt.
I guess i really should continue with both these series.
I love how both authors admire each other. I will try Joe Abercrombie books for sure thank you for the recommendation. Thank you for not bashing GrrM, your fan base is one of the few i like when it comes to ASOIAF, i been avoiding bunch of other youtubers with their constant vigilant comments about the series endings
This is my first time seeing the shelf lighting-so cool! 🔥
Abercrombie sure knows how to make characters distinct from each other. You know who's speaking the dialogue without him having to tell you
What a great video concept, I have read asoiaf 3 times and just finished the wisdom of crowds so I’m looking forward to this!
What did you think of the first law!!
Wisdom of Crowds was kinda disappointing to me as a huge ASOIAF fan, I really loved "A Trouble with Peace" but seeing the revolution turn into such a shitshow with the world being much worse after it than before it, made me sad and I just don't understand why the author IMO cut so many corners when it comes to flushing out complex sociological situations. It felt like I was reading the book version of the Dark Knight rises
Great vid as always! While I love both series, Id have to day I prefer A Song of Ice and Fire. The main reason would probably be the historical complexity. Abercrombie's world isn't boring by any means, especially when you get to see Abercrombie explore social progression into the Age of Madness trilogy with a literal industrial revolution. Its just George's world just felt more alive to me, especially with Fire and Blood delving deep into the past. Not only does exploring it feel like a history class, it also felt more interesting than actual history.
I read the first law after ASOIF because GRRM himself said the first law was good. The man wasn't wrong. Best characters i've ever read. The heroes is the funniest book i've ever read. Gorsts internal monologue is so funny and relatable in ways to me lol. Might have to go back and read them again.
Heroes is the book that made me all in on the series. It’s literally fantastic.
The Heroes is a masterpiece. I generally don't care about action scenes in books, I like the plotting and the aftermath... Thus, that book should not be my piece of cake on paper. I loved every moment of reading it.
@@SimplementInefable It's funny because it was the book I was dreading most in the series - a book only about a BATTLE? Battle scenes are my least favorite! And then it ended up being my favorite because of the way he wrote it
@@Bookborn YES! Absolutely
@@SimplementInefable The scene seeing Shivers from the other armies side was one of the best chapters of any book ive read ever. Easy to idolize a person when they're the main character, but seeing him baring down on you would probably change your view of him a bit lol.
Just about your comment on the Red Wedding - it was written so well and yes, it hurts a lot! I saw the scene from the tv series after I read this part in book (I didn't watch the entire show) and it reminded me the power of books and words because it was so powerful in the books, the way Martin wrote the last works of Catelyn, just until the end...
7:12 Just a small note, but ASOIAF is a story where magic has left the world and is now coming back :D
Oh how did I not know that! I totally misinterpreted it oops
I love ASOIAF, while the world is brutal and dark, I don’t find the books as a whole depressing, there’re those small moments of hope that really shine brightly. The First Law I liked, but it’s not a favorite in the way that ASOIAF is because I find it much bleaker and depressing. I also like to have a bit more plot and complex world building
Yeah this is why I think ASOIAF hit me so much harder - the shining moments really do stick out and give you hope. Abercrombie's plotting never bothered me or lack of magic - I just saw it as very low fantasy and I think it works for the series - but yes, I also love magic lol
I recommend kuariland (the moonfinder) to you as well, as stated in comment above. slightly smaller but great ASOIAF world feel with a deep society and a Children of the Forest vs Empire setup.
Thanks Bookborn!! Wanted to mention re plot armor video from last time too: I thought The First Law was perfect, BUT the characters were all used so economically that I knew (SPOILER WARNING - kinda) that none of them would die in the end. In fact, the only times I was ever kinda (kinda) bored were the shanka vs Logan and Ferro action scenes! Because, obviously, nothing was going to happen to them. They mattered a lot to the plot. The trilogy is lean and mean, in direct contrast to ASOIF. The one downside of being so lean and tight is that you can't go any leaner, which I understand. ASOIF, on the other hand, gosh... (Thanks again!! Super happy to catch a Bookborn video before lunch; greetings from the UK!)
ooh I wish I could've mentioned the first law in that plot armor video (would've been too much of a spoiler for obvious reasons) but it's such a good example. Main characters RARELY die in his books, but it never feels like plot armor because everything else bad that could happen to them is happening to them 😂
(also SPOILER WARNING - kinda)
The huge cast of ASOIAF/GOT makes character deaths more viable, especially once GRRM established that it aren't just side characters that can die.
But the First Law trilogy to me had the same amount of tension. Not because I was afraid of the main characters straight up dying, but because what it would take them to survive. Abercrombie taught me that watching a character survive can be just as horrifying as watching them die.
I'd include the "Memory, Sorrow and thorn" fantasy series by Tad Williams with those two.
Don't skip out on Sharp Ends. The Shevedieh and Javre stories alone are worth it. We need more of them.
IIIIII certainly didn't skip sharp ends, I LOVE a short story collection, and yes, Shev and Javre SUPREMECY.
Back again cuz I just finished. ASOIAF die hard but part of the reason I'm less enthralled by the first law after the first few chapters (on top of the fact that it does seem to be missing many aspects that asoiaf has) is the fact that I'm introduced to the characters in grim situations, and they seem very grey off the bat; in ASOIAF I feel like all the brutal moments hit so hard because all the grimness was built up, came by surprise, I was already attached to certain characters and loved some off the bat, etc...
This is where I look for my book recommendations
Loving First Law World more definetly❤
13:36 when you put a little note about THAT wedding i started to get depressed again, thank you very much.... 😭😭😭 ("Yes. Robb, get up. Get up and walk out, please, please. Save yourself . . . if not for me, for Jeyne.’’ damn it, i hate that line cause eventually i love Catelyn so much 😭😭)
I like how both authors stay true to the setting. Medieval for GRRM and Early modern for first law. Low magic is just propaganda because there is a lot of magic. Magic literally made the verse in the first law and magic is in the veins of literally every valyrian in ASOIAF
Excellent video. Having read both series I think I agree with most of the points you made about both series. Not sure if I prefer one over the other. The First Law series may be much darker but it is much more "fun" to read as the humor is non-stop. The world of The Song of Ice and Fire is much more of a character in that series as are the cultural differences between people from other areas of the world. In the end The First Law series feels "English" and the "Song of Ice and Fire" feels "American". Big surprise, looking at the authors.
That's a good point. The humor is not only expressed differently but just generally have distinct vibes to them which you described perfectly. I do see what ppl mean when they say TFL is more grim than ASOIAF but my experience simply did not match that. There were some scenes in ASOIAF that made me cry lol which never happens to me and was actually a rather random scene (Arya after Ned has been imprisoned and she begins frantically repeating different iterations of Syrio's lessons while wandering about in Flea Bottom). Meanwhile his humor comes out in strange beats too like when I picture Daario's outfits or when Cersei reflects about random shit. In other words, it is exactly what you explained: so character-heavy that you identify more with the characters than with the story sometimes. That said, Abercrombie's humor is more subtle and consistent at all times, which made it more introspective, oddly lol. They're very good at making good use of unavoidable instances of utter contradiction in their novels. I would still choose ASOIAF because of how much denser everything is. It truly is a unique experience. But since you mentioned consistency with comedy, I also think Abercrombie's writing is better paced and more consistent, as in you sort of know when to expect the next story beat; I sometimes feel overwhelmed when reading GRRM and notice that his pacing fluctuates, almost erratically.
More than a decent comparison ! very precise, very nail on the head. But I get it you want to stay humble 😜 Now I want to re-read both, damn you ! (so many books so little time)
What is Stannis may never die!
You know i screenshoted ambercromies wiki just a few days ago, and like clockwork, you drop video lol . Thank you so much. You definitely convinced me. Gonna pick up a copy of the first law today.
Just to chime in on the hopeful vs hopeless bit. I think it's also a very much a cultural thing, the americans generally tell stories that has a hero element incorporated in some way because they want someone to root for, whilst the English (or brits in general tbh) tell stories where everything is terrible and terrible things happen to the main character, almost looking at them like a peer. A good example of this is also UK vs US office. Or really any uk or us sitcom.
Also, I read that the First Law world isn't fully done yet? Rumours of three more standalones and a final trilogy, I believe
Another thing, in the world of ASOIAF : we feel a resurgence of magic throughout the series because of Dany's hatchlings. The warlock's felt it, Obsidian candle lighting up ... Melisande and the red priests order. The white walkers reappearance.... Euron finding the Horn...
In the Circle of the World however. It has been continuously in decline. Euz a godlike figure so powerful that he is separating the planes of existence. His four children completing against each others in a fratricide war in a lesser epic scales. Then the Magi order doing even less against Kanedias the master maker... Then the Bayaz vs Khalul through empires and the Eaters. Now magic is being replaced by banking and industry and the mages are ok with it even re-branding themselves. (I wouldn't be surprised if in the last trilogy of the First Law world all the mages get offed by the normies)
"Excellent video. I laughed, I cried, I ate a chicken parm sandwich. I recommend. Would watch again." - BellTube.
I´ve read The First Law once, and it was very good but it doesn´t invite me to read it again. ASOIAF on the other hand, I could read those books over and over again until I die, easily. Can´t explain why though. Sometimes you just have to read something again. It happened with Pedro Páramo by Juan Rulfo, it only have 130 pages, but I never get tired of it. The First Law doesn´t do that to me. ASOIAF does it.
I just started the video. But i love this warmer lighting
I started this video thinking "yeah! First Law! oh wait what? It's 10 books??? I thought it was only 3? Ughhhh where have I been?"
Well that’s a nice surprise! More for you to read now 🤣
In ASOIAF they also show the magic and progress of time struggling against each other. Magic isn’t going quietly into the Long Night, hence the birth of the dragons and some of the old spells working again.
On the low magic note, I agree that ASoIaF does have quite a lot of magical elements in it, be it dragons flying around or ice zombies invading from the north. I think what people really mean when they say that is that magic is more of a frontier element that is always doing its thing at the fringes of the world, but human civilization in Westeros is largely sheltered from it and operates entirely without like a real Middle Ages society. It’s to the point where many characters, including very smart people like Tyrion, don’t believe in magic at all.
When magic does enter the story, it usually has the effect of pulling the rug out of someone’s feet, serving as an element of horror, fear of the unknown, and blowing the lid off the world that character knew to be real. And I can definitely see that carried over into first law
Both series are my top 1
Jaw dropping when I see the video title
Have you done a video about your top 10 favorite series? I’d love to see it!
I have! But it was from a few years ago so ASOIAF isn’t on it :) I’ll need to update it. But I stand by the list still for the most part!
@ you should make a new one!! 🥹🙏
About book recommendations: there is a book series called Dark Star, written by Marlon James, which is supposed to be a trilogy but so far only has two books out. The story plays in an african inspired fantasy world and at it's centre lies the murder of a boy that has been witnessed by three people, all of whom are questioned by a person only refered to as "The Inquisitor" about said murder and each of the witnesses tells a different version of the events that transpired (one perspective per book) and how why they did so, with the Inquisitor (and by extension us) having to piece together the truth out of all the different storys
14:25 Preach! Like don't get me wrong, First Law is incredibly well written and the character work is second to none, but I just can't handle that depressive of a world for long. I need at least some hope and uplifting story beats in my escapism!
The way people who don't like dark books describe themselves when reading ASOIAF is how I felt while reading The First Law Trilogy. I felt pretty nihilistic.
About the theme of magic leaving the world. I believe that asoiaf has exactly the opposite theme. Magic is coming back into the world with the comet and the birth of Dany’s dragons. Examples that come to mind are the wildfire creation spells of the alchemist guild working better than expected and glass candles glowing again.
Love your videos ♥️
2:17 I think that Joe's taking a break with "First Law" to write "Devils", but he has plans to publish more books in this universe in the future. I read about it somewhere. :)
i want to start other fantasy series like first law but im in this perpetual cycle of “what if i dont like it as much as asoiaf” “its ok if you dont but maybe you will, never know until you read it” “but what if i dont like it as much as asoiaf”
I mean you might not like it as much as ASOIAF, but that won’t mean you don’t enjoy it! I have a couple series in my life that have consumed me completely they were so excellent. I find that very rarely. That doesn’t mean I haven’t loved and highly enjoyed other series, too!
You're actually who inspired me to pick up Abercrombie and I was pleasantly surprised by TFL trilogy. Despite indeed having far less plot than ASOIAF, it had a certain charm to it that felt super unique and prevalent throughout all three books. I also liked what I can only describe as Abercrombie's "restraint". He is impressively restrained in everything. Something ASOIAF sometimes struggles with when at its weakest, I think some of his scenes fall straight into pointless gratuity that I literally have to skip entire paragraphs of it. Well you know what I mean, like scanning through it just to move on. Whereas with Abercrombie, I don't even remember any scene that felt like that in TFL.
That said, I could not agree with you any more regarding how underrated GRRM's use of magic is. It's like a beacon of light and energy in the novels. I literally think about the Ghost of High Heart all the time for some reason lol. Also, the House of Black & White has some of the best lines in the series. Magic plays a pivotal role in the plot, in a very relaxed way. It is in the details often, but that's honestly what makes it so cool and prevalent. In fact, I think my favorite part about ASOIAF is its creative use of magic. It basically blends both into religion and politics, which is just pretty cool world-building. I also like how the magic is never explicitly made out to be evil or good; it simply varies depending on the situation and context.
Regarding TFL, I loved the deconstruction of Tolkienism. It was surprisingly overt but not in a condescending way, despite the fact that it literally inverts so much about the LOTR, which I suppose shouldn't have surprised me that much but still. I thought he walked a pretty humble tightrope between paying homage and low-level parody. This brings me neatly along to the final point is that they both make excellent use of comedy. GRRM pours the comedy into his characters in a way that almost feels like it's not supposed to be funny, even though it obviously is in retrospect. Whereas Abercrombie pours his comedy into the plot and story beats instead. Which make otherwise boring scenes actually kinda funny in a meaningless sort of way. I mean the most obvious example is how shamelessly The First of the Magi (What a funny character btw lol) literally pass through the ruins to reach what was expected to be some tide-turning device only to discover it was nothing. Speaking of which, one of the last scenes in Last Argument, Jezal is torn to shreds by this awful wave of rage that overcomes Bayaz. That's another scene in my mind that serves as a good example of how comedy is essential in darkgrim books. That scene, despite being utterly depressing at first, becomes funny the more you think about where Jezal originally began in the first book. Likewise, West, becomes utterly wretched. And in a sort of mirror fashion, so does Ardee, but in her own fashionable way that somehow kept her dignity intact unlike all the other anti-arcs as I see them lol. They only work because they're soaked in irony and humor.
Lastly, my main disagreement. Maybe it's because I re-read Norse Mythology, but I actually think ASOIAF was in the direction of ending on just as bleak a note as TFL. Like yes I do get what you mean about hope being a theme very present in ASOIAF. But in a way, I interpret it as set up for us to have our hearts torn out like he repeatedly does. In fact, I think ASOIAF will end just as bleakly as TFL. That's perhaps an exaggeration, esp after thinking about Abercrombie's character arcs lol. ASOIAF is a mixed bag in terms of its messaging. And contrary to popular belief, I can think of several coherent ways for the story to end. He hasn't written himself into a corner. But at the end of the day, a story does rely heavily on its ending and ASOIAF simply does not have one, unless you take the one from the show which I suspect is much closer to his real personal ending than fans would like to admit. That said, I can't see how the story won't end on at least a cynical note. One of the most interesting and in my opinion logical endings would be the ultimate subversion of expectations: having the Others win in the war for the dawn. It sounds extreme yes but it makes sense thematically and narratively. It would also resolve any plot holes or contrivances in the political landscape that appear daunting in scope (like Jon for example). It would be utterly bleak though. This is why I kinda laugh when I hear about Jaime's redemption arc continuing to the end. I think he'll at least be given the opportunity to go heroically. Same for Theon, a good ending mayhaps. It's not what we wanna hear but idk, how else would this come to an end? Also, Bran effectively losing all humanity to become an evil tree king is pretty similar thematically to me, especially if Dany turns mad and is done away with as is the case in the show (which would be the logical deconstruction of the Return of the King Aragorn). Also, I do think Sansa & Arya are being set up as misguided teens who will mature into politically-minded and revenge-driven, respectively.
Question: Do you think Abercrombie could pull off a convincing end to ASOIAF? If so, then I'll read AOM
Joe is a master at Gallows Humour which just suits his setting to a T
Everyone else - great video Bookborn! You did a great job comparing these two series!
Me - great job Bookborn! You said Feast For Crows correctly!
I want you to know I wrote and dated a note in my note apps that said "Kyle will comment on the book title and my correct or incorrect saying of them in his comment". I hope you enjoy being PREDICTABLE
@Bookborn this sparks joy
Read both. ASOIF takes the cake for me. I liked First Law, but the one element I felt it was really missing that ASOIF knocks out of the park is the political intrigue. The scheming and weaving of this driving the plot is so superbly done. First Law really doesn’t have that aspect (at least not in the first trilogy or first 3 stand-alones that I read).
Ironically the last trilogy actually has the most political weaving of the entire first law lol so I think you’ll enjoy it. But ultimately I agree with you that Martin is better at that aspect for sure!
Small correction: although ASOIAF is definitely low in magic overall compared to fantasy as a whole, I think its made clear that what we're witnessing over the course of the series is the returning of magic to a world that has been long without it, exemplified by the return of dragons and the lighting of the glass candles for example. I also completely agree that ASOIAF is definitely not grimdark: GRRM is really a romantic who I think is not interested in exempting his characters from tragedy, nor creating a world without heroes and hope, but rather having his characters go forward profoundly changed by their experiences, for better or for worse.
Anyway, loved the video! I'll definitely check of The First Law series, as a professional sadboi myself im not too bothered with an even darker turn.
Appreciate the comparison. Perhaps I'll check out The First Law. I could use something to alleviate my decade long ASOIAF withdrawals. By the way, and you may have heard this already, but George R.R. Martin has described the tone he's going for with the ending of ASOIAF as "bittersweet."
YESSSSS I feel so vindicated
While it will hopefully be better executed, the ending of ASoIaF is 100% the same as GoT in the broad strokes, so we known how dark it is going to get in action if not in spirit. And you can make the same events seem very different based on how you tell them.
I’ve listened to both series. 2x for ASFIAF and 3x for Abercrombie. I prefer Abercrombie because of his humor and I like the characters more. Both are top 5 series. I rank them above the Lord of the Rings.
I thInk First Law is more nakedly ironic/subversive in its tone. Abercrombie intentionally sets up the classic tropes of fantasy only to deliberately rip the rug out from under them. It seems to be almost a parody of traditional fantasy. While Asoiaf subverts classic fantasy tropes, it seems to go about it in a more straightforward manner while earnestly telling a traditional-ish story.
Great way of stating it, and I totally agree. Perhaps it is the earnestness of ASOIAF that I am so attracted to
I never read the G.R.R. Martin books but have read and loved the First Law books. The “magic” in 1st Law was money/gold. I think that’s the clear message at the end of the first three books. And that was realistic and phenomenal. I don’t really like Best Served Cold (with the ridiculously powerful whaman! main character) but The Heroes and Red Country (fantasy with swords Western novel) were pretty great. The last three books are sitting in a large stack of TBR books and I can’t wait to get to them. I’ll probably never read ASOIAF because I’ve seen and heard too much of the tv show and I hate things with dragons. Good video 👍🏻
As far as audiobooks go, The First Law has the GOAT of narrators. Pacey deserves all the praise for his performance.
Ugh this video hit me a day after roommate and I were contemplating a reread of first law 😅
In general, I'd say I love asoiaf more. It's a more complex and intricate, and with a bigger scope. The political aspect which is mixed with magical elements like dragons is just second to none. And while both have great characters which are fascinatingly written, I think first law has one or two higher highs in terms of characters. I fucking enjoy reading Glokta so much.
So I absolutely love them both, and of course there are plenty of similarities between the two as you describe (though as you say, First Law is, for the most part, a lot grimmer).
The thing that separates them for me is re-readability and, for lack of a better word, depth. I know that sounds like I'm saying that ASOIAF is in some way more profound or worthy than First Law, but really I don't mean it that way. Abercrombie's novels are fantastic on a first readthrough, and perfectly enjoyable on a second or third, but you don't pick up much more the more times you read them. ASOIAF, on the other hand... I think I might have enjoyed some subsequent reads of the series more than my first. Every time you pick up on details you missed before, things that might completely change your perspective on a character or the story. There's a reason there are countless threads on Reddit and entire forums dedicated to analysing the series, along with hundreds of RUclipsrs making a living spouting theories that have become more and more batshit as time goes on. Yes, this is partly because of the massive popularity of the series (and the show), as well as the amount of time since the last book, but it's also a feature of the novels and the amount of foreshadowing and detail there is to dig into.
Again, I love Abercrombie and First Law, I think he's a genius in his own way and would heartily recommend his books to any ASOIAF fan. I would also point out that Abercrombie is still very much writing and, for the most part, his books have improved with each publication. I wouldn't bet against, in future, Abercrombie writing something on par with ASOIAF, but, for me, he's not quite there yet.
I always tell people I think first law is way more niche than most people let on, especially compared to ASOIAF. Going to go into some spoilers for the first trilogy…
.
.
.
The fact that the story ends where basically nothing has changed and everything is awful makes it far more grim than asiaf as you pointed out. It’s also a testament to what a great writer Abercrombie is that not only do I not hate that ending, I think it is actually brilliant for the series. It’s like you go on a huge hero’s journey only to realize that not only are you not really the hero, you’re not even really the villain, you’re just kind of nothing. And also you might have accidentally had sexual relations with someone who was threatened into it. I won’t get into the details of the show, but I think this is the kind of ending the showrunners were going for and it just doesn’t work. There is a lot of hope within ASOIF and we’re rooting for the heroes, so they should win even if it’s not a clean victory.
By the way, as a life hack, if you get HBO through Amazon, you can use Vidangel to skip the bad stuff in the show. That’s how I watched it back in the day (coming from a fantasy obsessed Mormon dad). Seems like most of the naughty content is in the first couple seasons and then they started to chill out once their actresses started getting a bit more indispensable. It’s actually kind of sad when you hear Emilia Clarke (Dany) talk about how she was pressured into doing scenes she wasn’t comfortable with and she didn’t feel she could say no. That’s pretty yucky to me. That makes them perfectly skippable if you ask me!
I started first law because of this actually, but I disagree with people’s comparison. While there is definitely strong character writing element, the plotting didn’t feel as strong to me nor the world building and it just didn’t have that particular GOT flavor. I actually think Red Rising, particularly the sequel series aka book 4 and onward is a better recommendation for GOT lovers.
PS: I saw that you DNFd Red Rising a while ago, I recommend giving it another try. It definitely pays off in my opinion.
She actually mentions that’s she thinks the plotting differences are why some ASOIAF fans might not love first law
Yep. Read the FLT and, while the characters were very solid, the plot was just ok and the world building was pretty lacking. It made me hesitant to start reading Robbin Hobb, who's also mentioned a lot with the other two.
Agreed tbh. Especially the RR suggestion tho RR having an outright central protagonist is a clear difference some ASOIAF fans might not like
@@abdullahisayuti6698 yea that is understandable but I think that the central character focus actually enhances the multiple pov we get later on cause after being so invested in Darrow and his crew, we are suddenly pulled into heads of other characters and see completely different perspectives which really shifts the dynamic of the events. To me this perfectly replicates the feeling I get in GOT when Martin does unreliable narrator stuff with Cersei. Or someone like Jaime.
Admittedly I haven’t read the second half of red rising, but I’ve heard it’s EXTREMELY dark, so I think it would still have that Abercrombie thing of not blending enough hope
I've tried a lot of different series that often get compared to ASOIAF, but the only one that actually managed to scratch that itch was J.V. Jones's "Sword of Shadows" series.
Because you loved Fire and Blood, you quickly need to get to Aerys II's chapter in AWOIAF. GRRM's prose makes even the Mad King believable and somewhat empathetic.
I have consumed a ton of SFF books. GRRM and Joe Abercrombie are the unquestionable Kings of dialogue in the genres. I really havent read anyone close to either of them.
What I find strange about First Law is that I don’t always find it completely hopeless? Overall, things don’t really work out, but then you have these individual moments of characters succeeding in their goals, even if it comes at a high cost. I just think about Orso in Age of Madness and the change he brought in a lot of other characters, despite how much was working against him. If/When we continue seeing more First Law books, I wonder how the events of Age of Madness will affect the world and if maybe we will see a resolution that isn’t as bleak 😅 a man can dream.
I am happy and think we're all lucky to have both. Can't wait for the Devils.
Abercrombie gets points for actually finishing his series, but honestly George’s books are in a completely different league.
I found the First Law books to be really enjoyable, but the ASOIAF books are legendary.
S tier vs. A tier in my opinion.
Might give first law a go when i finish sanderson thanks to this video.
Do you have any plans to read the Realm of the Elderlings?
I’ve read the first trilogy ages ago! Before my channel. I do plan to continue!
@@Bookborn It is incredible! Expectations tend to ruin people's experience, though.
You have to resist the urge to say "ah, so THAT'S what the story is about, and just go on the journey
I’ve only read Abercrombie's first trilogy, so take this with a grain of salt.
I like The First Law trilogy, but I love A Song of Ice and Fire (ASOIAF). I really appreciate how The First Law delivers such well-executed storytelling-it’s well-written, with great characters, and explores its themes in depth. I can see that it’s excellent, but I just can’t love it-it’s too depressing for me. On the other hand, ASOIAF is also brilliantly executed, but it makes me feel good in its own way. At the end of the day, it’s still a hero’s story. Sometimes, it even feels like a more grounded version of a Sanderson book, haha.
I just wanted to point out that although both series are similar, they have very different tones. I still plan to keep reading Abercrombie’s work, but I’m waiting until I have a bit more happiness in reserve 😂.
Hi! Love your videos. So overall, what is the number one series you would recommend for fans of Song of Ice and Fire?
They are both two of my favorite series of all time, but i think the other thing that ASOIAF doesn't get a whole lot of credit for when being compared with FL is that the world and specifically political machinations are all very strong and up front. I think for me it's why ASOIAF gets the bump up, despite it being unfinished. Not necessarily an ability or vibe thing, though. Probably falls within what you said for plot.
the main difference is Joe finishes his books, George started well with the first 3 books then fizzled out
Agree with so much of what you say. Have only read The First Law (not his other series), but i am seriously considering them once i finish Malazan. I have read Asoiaf (and all other related book) multiple times. Both are excellent series, but i prefer asoiaf a bit more. What i think sets asoiaf apart is how deeply it looks into both small and large consequencs of actions. It has literally changed how i approach complicated situations as often there is no magic bullet or perfect solution. I think of decisions made throughout the books that don't follow the traditional trope of sword kills bad guy. One of my favorite illustrations of this is in Dany's arc in books 3 and 5. Spoilers for storm of sword and dance with dragons:
Dany's arc is book 3 feels so triumphant and uplifting. While at times brutal, she is clearly trying to do the right thing in freeing the slaves. Book 5 shows despite that, she did not "defeat slavery" and she still needs to find ways to push for a better situation. She has to find naunced and often imperfect solutions, like marrying Hizdar. When Hazzea's body is laid before Dany, you feel that so deeply because you know in your heart that Dany is trying to do the right thing. Her chaining 2 of her dragons shows that she is willing to try things to better the situation for Mereen and is also obviously symbolic of her suppressing her "mother of dragons" persona while in leaning into more diplomatic solutions. This also has downsides as without her dragons, the sons of the harpy and old slave masters feel like they can push her around. Again, no perfect answer. Love your perspective on these things
Hey Bookborn, as someone who is planning to read the ASOIAF books, (I have watched both shows so I am a big fan) and has bough all the books you have reviewed so far, I also find myself wanting to get to the Stormlight Archive. Do you think you could explain the similarities and differences between the two? I'm curious how they are similar and different in terms of characters and how one who is familiar with ASOIAF but not Stormlight might find the latter series interesting.
Ooo I'm curious as to what she thinks, as I believe I remember people complaining in her other vids that you can't enjoy both series
@@drewby3346 She made a video explaining that there is a specific element to both series that makes her love them both, but I'm more curious in a "expect this but not this but also Stormlight has this,' kind of explanation. ASOIAF isn't Stormlight so I basically want to know what I am getting into as to not judge it unfairly happing to capture some ASOIAF that may or may not be there.
Well I LOOOVE the Stormlight Archive so I'm never going to say no to someone starting that! (ASOIAF and SA are now my two favs actually lmao). Stormlight Archive is much more heroic in tone than ASOIAF - Sanderson is all about the hope, and the promise of change. Sanderson's series is also much more magical, as it focuses much more on the details of magic and makes it almost scientific. Additionally, Sanderson's prose is very straightforward - it's to serve the story, and it's not considered at the same level as Martin's, who is really just like fantastic at prose. That said, both series deal wonderfully with deep, complex characters going through difficult things; both are so good at really highlighting the inner struggle of who we are and who we wish to be. Martin's works will take a darker, sadder tone.
@@Bookborn Thanks for the reply! While I love ASOIAF, having a more cheerfully and magical/fantastical alternative to switch between and compare definitely sounds like something I would enjoy. Once I finish ASOIAF I will definitely buy the first Stormlight book, but not before because I have been pushing Ice and Fire back way too long! 😅
The first law is my favourite series ever, I tried to get into ASOISF but I just never got sucked in in the same way.
I’ll be honest i always thought George wrote 3 great books and 2 decent novels in his series. I think he lives off those early books but I do love his Dunk and Egg stories.
Abercrombie wrote 3 good books first and then really found his groove with the stand alone’s. Which I like as their own unofficial Trilogy. And his short stories and new trilogy are all top quality as well
I think ASOF hits higher highs and I think the First Law is much more consistent. Both great series but I’m much more excited about Joe’s career than George’s
Catelyn Stark defense video when!
Love your vids
It’s still planned! It’s just something I care a lot about and want to do well, so I’m waiting for when I actually have time to sit down and craft it. I’m hoping soon!
I haven't realized people don't see Martin as funny... outside of general comedy books, he's one of the funniest authors out there! Especially given his subject material!
So I've read and reread ASOIAF, it's by far my favorite series. I've read the first four books of the First Law, and I agree with most of your assessment - Abercrombie is a fantastic writer of a similar caliber and style to George, but funnier and a lot less hopeful.
I also think that Abercrombie writes much better action scenes - they're a lot more visceral, entertaining, and, for me, it's a lot easier to form an image of what's physically happening. But I think he overuses this talent, at times - just like in movies, too many or too long of action sequences can start to drag.
Then, with characters - I agree with you that they both write *incredible* POV characters, but I think George is WAY better at populating his world with fully fleshed out side characters. I feel almost no connection to, or even any real understanding of, any Union bureaucrats or military officers or court members other than our POV characters. There are some secondary characters - those in Logen/ Dogman's party in the North, Bayaz and the other wizards - who are interesting and feel thought out, but a lot of other characters feel more like plot devices and caricatures. On the other hand, the entirety of George's secondary characters - whether it's any of the Five Kings, or Tywin Lannister, Little finger and Varys in Kings Landing, or Jeor Mormont, Bowen Marsh, and Mance Rayder at the Wall, or Illyrio, Jorah, Drogo, and Hizdahr in Dany's story - they feel like *people,* with rich internal lives and histories. Even much more tertiary characters, like Roose Bolton or Oberyn/ Ellaria/ The Sand Snakes, Mirri Maaz Duur, Craster, Walder Frey, Wyman Manderly, Lysa Arryn, even Ilyn Payne in book 5 - there's just so much going on with these people! And that leads me to my next point...
Politics in ASOIAF is way more interesting, because I feel like all these characters, even those I can barely see around the outskirts of a scene, have complex motivations and perspectives about what's happening in the world. When I think of the current Northern plotline, I feel like I really have to ask myself, like "What is Kyle Condon's understanding of what happened at the Red Wedding? How much do the Ryswells trust Wyman Manderly, or Whoresbane Umber?" It really feels like there are a million moving pieces. Thus far, in The First Law series, each new political situation feels like there's two or three sides, and one ending is beneficial towards Bayaz' cause and other(s) aren't. It's still very fun, but I don't get the sense of "wheels within wheels" that's led to me thinking about ASOIAF nonstop for over a decade.
One point I definitely disagree with you on, though - I feel like there's way more Tolkein-esque magic in The First Law! Like, yes, the Others are coming, and the Children of the Forest are like magical nature elves, and we have Warlocks in Qarth and blood magic with Mirri and magical indestructible swords and glass candles - but the First Law Trilogy ends with a straight up massive wizard battle with telekinesis and super speed and magically summoned tornados. It felt like the end of a high fantasy video game or epic DnD campaign. I don't think it detracted from his world, but it felt wayyy more traditionally magical than ASOIAF
You're one of the only people I've seen confirm my conviction in how Tolkien-esque many segments of the story felt. I see them as overt but respectful and lighthearted deconstructions of Tolkien's legacy. Whereas GRRM likewise sought to intellectually challenge Tolkien's legacy more subtly but also more seriously if that makes sense. I think he was partly successful imo, though LOTR is still the superior work and GRRM's difficulty wrapping his thesis is more proof that he didn't finish his thesis. That said, I actually appreciate TFL for being as straightforwardly brazen as it was in its deconstruction of Tolkien tropes. It didn't feel like an actual rebuttal to Tolkien and instead felt more like homage with heavy irony, bordering on parody but somehow not disrespectful to Tolkien; a testament to his subtle but excellent skills in humor. It was also more unapologetic which felt refreshing. GRRM presumably began to overextend his ideas in his more ambitious attempt at challenging modern fantasy. Without an ending, it really is difficult for a verdict to be made. TWOW should contain enough foreshadowing and clues necessary to make reasonably broad stances on his mission but as the story currently stands, it's at a crossroads, and thus thematically vague. I love all 3 authors' works but yeah cool how they feed off each other.
Magic does affect the plot more overtly in TFL trilogy but ultimately in a way that kind of trivializes/normalizes it, more than in Westeros. The use of magic in ASOIAF reflects GRRM's atheist but all-connecting philosophy he has. If you reread chapters in search of cryptic messages among all the shades of magic in the world you'll quickly realize just how grand in scale magic is thematically, I think the relative lack of belief in its various forms by the general population is deliberate, effectively hiding true power in plain sight, disguised as coincidence, religious institutions, and even personal dreams/memory. I suppose it depends on how you define magic. Anyway great points.
@@parkersenders4446 Also, I must confess that I do not remember tornadoes being summoned? And the only reason I am suddenly wary is because I didn't want to get caught reading it at work so I bought them on Audible as well. So almost half, but definitely about a third of the three books in total were consumed audibly. More importantly, it was my first time using Audible whatsoever and I actually struggled with it. I couldn't focus on what and had to actively make an effort to get through each chapter. On the bright side, it made me more open-minded to Audible. Anyway since you can't "scan" through certain battle/graphic scenes the way you can while actually reading it physically, that means I had to use the 10s fast-forward, more than I should have in retrospect. But I do know I likely missed some good lines and there was one particularly long chapter in which everything comes together before their triumph I suspect the reason I don't remember the tornados was because I skipped too often. Or perhaps fell asleep. Makes me a bit sad.
Hey, Bookborn!
May I ask if you are planning on finishing Malazan? I was so sad to see that you stopped at book 3.
Read the first law it was great, waiting on Martin to finish then I’ll read it. I don’t want to go down the same road I did with king on the dark tower waiting years half way through for the next book.
I’ve been meaning to read the First Law for a while, but I haven’t gotten around to it yet. I actually was never planning to read ASOIAF though…
I think the biggest difference that you didn’t mention here is ASOIAF is a long, slow, massive and super detailed book series whereas First Law is a short and fast paced movie type experience.
I Bookborn!! I hope you are having a good time and a good fall reading whatever it is you're reading at the moment!! You still need to 'read' The World of Ice and Fire' its far from a novel, but it is so SO informative similar to Fire & Blood, and although it's not as good and kinda different. What I mean is it covers the early dynasty of the Targaryens like Fire & Blood, but it also covers the whole ass universe, including ALL the major houses and every corner of the known world. I am telling you, one cannot claim that ASOIAF was your new personality without reading The Silmarillion of Westros and beyond. Take care and happy reading!! P.S. please I am begging you to watch the show, at the very least watch the first 5 seasons. I would LOVE to get your reaction. I love seeing the show through brand new eyes.
I am currently reading the world of ice and fire lmao more than half way through
I always said First Law is like Game of Thrones with much less politics.
In asoiaf magic is actually being reintroduced into the world. So the upcoming books will be more magical not less. The birth of dragons is what is making magic resurge. All of dany chapters increase in magic, tbh.
Im a HUGE ASOIAF fan, series means so much to me but I want to get into some more fantasy, have been debating whether I should get into The First Law or the Stormlight Archive first. After watching this video I think more leaning more towards the former, but which would you recommend first??
I've got all five ASOIAF books on my shelves. Loved it at the beginning, a little less so as it went on, and I've about given up on ever seeing the end of it. Overall, like it, but not among my most favorite series anymore. First Law I started, but didn't even make it through the first book. Got about 1/3 of the way in, realized I didn't like or care about any of the characters, and there was no discernable overall plot to keep me going, so I dropped it. May go back one of these days to be sure it wasn't just me having a bad day, but as of now, too grimdark for my tastes, I guess.
I’m a massive History fan and primarily focus on reading history books which really causes ASOIAF to resonate with me and I’m now obsessed with ASOIAF and GRRM. The themes , analogues, depths and complexities fascinated me. Problem is, I feel really basic when it comes to fiction, is there some other works or authors that are contemporary or recommendable for someone entering Fiction the way I am?
Fiction in general or specifically fantasy fiction?
@@BookbornActually doesn’t have to be Fantasy at all. I’m reading GRRMs Fevre Dream based in the 19th century and it still hits the spot.
I just really appreciate when the writer respects their characters and their complexities.
I mean it's not recommended for newer fantasy enjoyers to delve into it but Malazan seems to be exactly what you're looking for. It's scope is massive and has actual magic system and wide array of characters and feels like history books not to mentione that writer Steven Erikson was actual Archaeologist and you can really see it in his books. But do it at your own peril, this series is a behemoth.
In ASOIAF, until the Comet, the world had lost most of its magic. During the events of the books, though, it is undergoing a resurgence. I think it is part of that underlying hope but also foreshadows calamity.
I agree for the most part although I feel there is more killing in the 1st law series
Thanks for this one!! You have done your duty and given me sufficient info to know that I don't need to read the First Law series =D I came in to this video not knowing much about it, but hoping that it would be maybe slightly less dark and maybe slightly less sexually explicit than ASoIaF as those are my main two issues with the aforesaid. Well alas. Guess no First Law for me. Appreciate your service!!
The only magic I could think of is the many face god and the lord of light in a song of ice and fire. Is there any more?
Im reading First Law right now and i'm sorry but it's nowhere near what Martin created. I'm starting Last Argument(yeah, it's the best one i know) and comparing first two ASOIAF books to the Abercrombie is brutal. Even if the Last Argument is as good as everybody says let's not forget that third book of ASOIAF is Storm of fucking Swords.
We are doing a lot of harm to the First Law by comparing it to Martin
I've seen many people recommend the First Law books, but I just haven't been able to get into them. I've tried to read the first one probably two or three times now and I just can't get more than a few pages into it before I lose interest. I'm not sure why.
As much as everyone says they love the first chapter, I also wasn’t hooked immediately. Maybe try again when you’re in the mood for something that starts slow. I do think it’s worth it!
As much as everyone says they love the first chapter, I also wasn’t hooked immediately. Maybe try again when you’re in the mood for something that starts slow. I do think it’s worth it!
I've been struggling to get into first law. It's just not gripping me somehow.
Yeah, these 2 series aren't really similar at all. It's hard to get another series anywhere similar to A Song of Ice and Fire. They are both fantastic, but certainly different.