The fact is that people like theses kind of stories... Like in Hokuto no ken, and Soten no Ken... And forget that it is just manga stories... And not history ! And History with H.
Right on Jesse ... It's crazy, huh? Kinda like sayin' "Kara-te's" birth-place is Okinawa, right? Like, why are all of the Okinawan Karate terms (including "Karat-te") in the Japanese language, if most people in Okinawa do not speak Japanese?
The foundation of kung fu came from India From an Indian martial art called Kalaripayuttua Bodidharama taught them kalari as well as yogic breathing practices These practices were later turned to Chi Gong These arts were later defined and combined with other skills from many visitors and slowly turned in to KUNG FU
Also kalaripayattu is over 3,000 years old!!! Which is double the age of shaloin Kungfu His research was wrong .. please take 5 seconds too look up how old it is
People dont realize the Shaolin Temple was famous historically primarily as a religious research institution. It laid the foundation of Chan Buddhism which the Japanese call Zen. The Indian monk Bodhidharma was one of the creators. Chan requires long hours, even days of meditation and the monks were too physically weak to withstand it. Legend has it Bodhidharma taught them physical exercises. This was probably a form of yoga. Later on the temple became an extremely important religious center. The Emperor granted them a lot of land and they were rich enough to recruit a full scale army to defend temple property. These were the warrior monks. They are like lay brothers in Catholic monastery. Not strictly monks but devout soldiers who already had military training. Most soldiers back then were peasant levees with little training. But these religious warriors trained every day for years. They had no wives and children. A school of traditional martial art typically die out after a few generations, but as an institution the temple can keep some styles alive for much longer.
Very good reply. Kung fu is Chinese. This "style" of fighting and exercise forms was developed after an Indian monk taught the Shaolin monks, breathing, and yoga like techniques. Gong Fu did not need Indian influence. It did however develope in a way because of it in a way through the Shaolin branch of martial arts. The Shaolin warrior monks would have seemed like super soldiers compared to the common man in the areas of what is now called China. Imo the forms and movements that we see after the earlier 1900s are not the original fighting techniques/movements. This is due to the many culture/war/religious events that have occurred in China.
Supposedly, Bodhidharma taught them the "18 Hands of Lohan", a series of movements that are some kind of Chi Kung, not fighting movements. Supposedly, though, Shaolin Kung Fu was derived from these movements, though I don't see the connection other than in the most general way.
@@The_Okami Some kind of Kung Fu, perhaps. Fighting arts, not necessarily. The histories/legends themselves do not specify that he taught a fighting method.
You're just buying into the same myth that is debunked in the very video you are replying to. The same myths circling around the Kung Fu are for the meditations. There are multiple artworks dating back before the founding of Shaolin, (and evidence that they existed before the founding of Buddhism itself, or at the least Buddhism coming to China) showing those exercises, in detail, local to the area. The 18 Lohan/Baduanjin/qigong/etc have a clear pre-Buddhist/pre-Shaolin origin.
The foundation of kung fu came from India From an Indian martial art called Kalaripayuttua Bodidharama taught them kalari as well as yogic breathing practices These practices were later turned to Chi Gong These arts were later defined and combined with other skills from many visitors and slowly turned in to KUNG FU
Also kalaripayattu is over 3,000 years old!!! Which is double the age of shaloin Kungfu His research was wrong .. please take 5 seconds too look up how old it is
@asecond_1 There was no India in The Karate Kid, but there was a Black(African American) kid in it, though played by Will Smith son. I think there was also the token white kid in it, too, played by young American heart throbs, Justin Bieber, and he also sang the movie theme song too. The move gross over $359,126,022.59 dollar worldwide. On a budgeting of only $40 million, a successful movie. Unfortunately, Will Smith's son didn't not pursue his acting career. He tried to follow his father's other footsteps into the music industry but failed. His sister also went into the music industry but failed as well. Despite his many failures. Will Smiths son finally succeed in starting a highly successful fashion line. Fast forward, many later, his father slapped his former friend Chris Rock, and everyone forgot about Will Smiths son. As you can see, there is no India, role, or influence in The Karate Kid. Where Jackie Chan playing Mr. Han said "there's kungfu in everything".
@@asecond_1 It doesn't address the main argument, though - whatever was somewhat verifiably brought from India is not "kung fu", and definitely not whole "kung fu" even if we agree to call the sum of Chinese martial arts "kung fu". We know one possible instance of Indian martial art being brought into China through Shaolin, but Chinese fought for millenia before Shaolin had become a thing, nevermind even later tradition of Shaolin warror monks. Even if the trip in question didn't happen, Chinese would still have their martial arts and their martial "kung fu" in the form of majority of what remains of it in the current timeline.
Heard the indian monk handed down excercises more akin to Yoga that eventually morphed into Shaolin kung fu, while other fighting styles would filter into the temple via refugees, fugitives etc. Making the temple sort of a martial arts University. Shaolin however could possibly ascribe the deep spiritualization of kung fu to India and the utilization of the martial arts as a meditative tool and not just a practical one
@@ubcroel4022 I know that's not the answer you're probably interested in, but whatever locals used before their culture took what was essentially a fatal hit - it probably existed, and we probably know very little about it, if anything.
@ubcroel4022 the more traditional combat styles were lost like the Eagle and Jaguar warrior training. But also more niche things like developing poisons, and types of grappling.
I think people are confusing Kung Fu with Qi Gong. It seems more plausible that Bodhidarma introduced the Shaolin monks to yoga and ayurvedic medicine.
@@jestfullgremblim8002 I believe the monks already had their own fighting systems, but incorporated concepts they learned from Indian travelers such as Bodidharma into their practice. Marrow washing in qi gong, for example, is nearly identical to Sun Salutation in yoga.
@@foosmonkey well said. Even the Chinese sources mentions that Bodhidharma only taught the breathing technique to the Shaolin monks. Nothing else. Indians, over hyped it up by claiming Bodhidharma taught the whole martial art system to the Shaolin Monks. Lol
I think that makes a lot more sense. They've found swords in China from over 2000 years ago, so obviously they were fighting. But maybe Qigong could have been introduced from people from India. However the story of Bodhidarma facing a cave wall for 9 years and all those other myths are ridiculous. Just like the story of Wing Chun is ridiculous. It was probably just a bunch of people getting together and training teaching each other stuff. Just like people train and learn with practitioners of other styles now.
@@foosmonkey i don't just believe that, i'm basically sure. There were all sort of people in the temple, some where soldiers or ex-soldiers, some came from very far, others were just monks, etc. Of course they had their own martial arts in there! But i do believe that they might have gotten many of their exercises from indian stuff or from some other physical training system, and they probably got some of their concepts and techniques from some indian stuff as well, it is very possible
13:16 Good video, but I’d like to clarify a historical point about Kalaripayattu. This martial art is believed to be around 3,000 years old, much older than the "12th Century" timeline mentioned in the video. There are several pieces of evidence to support this: *1. Sangam Literature (circa 300 BCE to 300 CE)* - These ancient Tamil texts describe warriors trained in martial arts techniques similar to Kalaripayattu, indicating its early existence. *2. Ancient Temple Sculptures* - Many temples in South India, dating back to the early centuries of the Common Era, depict warriors in combat poses resembling Kalaripayattu techniques. *3. Historical Mentions* - Kalaripayattu is referenced in ancient Indian texts such as the Agastya Samhita, linking it to early Indian martial traditions. Additionally, Bodhidharma is generally dated to the 5th-6th century, well after Kalaripayattu was already in practice. Therefore, suggesting that Kalaripayattu developed after Bodhidharma is historically inaccurate. Understanding the proper timeline helps give a clearer picture of the origins of martial arts. 🇮🇳
It doesn't matter when kalaripayattu was created or developed, whether before or after Bodhidharma, the fact here is Chinese martial arts originated much further back than Bodhidharma, several millennia before Bodhidharma, so for people to claim Bodhidharma brought martial arts to China is an utter nonsense. Martial arts historians as early as during Qing Dynasty had already debunked such a mythical claim, and this thing was also debunked by Japanese historian, but there are just some people still cling to such a mythical nonsense, and mostly from india. Even the martial Buddhist monks in Shaolin Temple in this modern era debunked such a claim that TCMA came from Bodhidharma.
@@Toxicgamerdog THERE IS SO MUCH SIMILARITY This dude has no idea what he is talking about I watched a video 3 days ago of a kung fu master and kalari master doing a form together!! And it WAS ALMOST IDENTICAL
I remember hearing some crackpot theory that the Indian martial art that Shaolin kung fu was allegedly based on was actually a result of Alexander the Great's men teaching Indians Pankration. At this point, I'm just waiting for someone from the Middle East or Egypt to claim Pankration was derived from Mesopotamian or Egyptian martial arts...
Even very old karate sources seem to indicate that the Bodhidharma story doesn’t have much basis in fact. Anko Itosu described karate in his precepts as explicitly not being related to Buddhism. I think that what we are seeing here is the effect of the Golden Age Fallacy. You get the same thing in the West where European powers often linked themselves to Ancient Rome, the Romans did the same thing with Troy. Martial arts have a tendency to link themselves to older times and distant places to give themselves legitimacy. A very recent example of this was early MMA marketing itself as a modern Pankration. This is also a factor to consider with the Chinese influence on karate, though in this case there clearly is some direct connection. It’s still difficult to determine exactly what really came from China and what was developed in Okinawa itself. It’s also important to remember that there was a lot of influence from Japanese martial arts in Okinawa as well. I tend to think less came from China than is often reported.
@@asecond_1 yes Bodhidharma is a very important religious figure but his connection to martial arts is questionable. Literary references to this are all fairly recent. For karate specifically, Itosu denied that the art had a connection to Buddhism.
Really, it does not matter whether Kung Fu came from India mainly because there is no modern equivalent of it here, and we were instrumental in spreading Buddhism anyway, which is a similarly great act.
I first encountered this story as a child interested in Martial Arts I watched a BBC series about Martial Arts called the Way of the Warrior, then I bought the book of the series which repeated this story. I believed it because, I was a child and had little ability to reason, it was the BBC that told it to me, so I believed them. There was no internet to check things up, so I had accepted that Kung Fun had come from India well into adulthood.
The foundation of kung fu came from India From an Indian martial art called Kalaripayuttua Bodidharama taught them kalari as well as yogic breathing practices These practices were later turned to Chi Gong These arts were later defined and combined with other skills from many visitors and slowly turned in to KUNG FU
Also kalaripayattu is over 3,000 years old!!! Which is double the age of shaloin Kungfu His research was wrong .. please take 5 seconds too look up how old it is
My Bajiquan Sifu told me the same, kung fu did not come from India or a Bodhidarma teaching shaolin monks. Thanks for you confirming this as a second resource, Ramsey. Keep on teaching
The foundation of kung fu came from India From an Indian martial art called Kalaripayuttua Bodidharama taught them kalari as well as yogic breathing practices These practices were later turned to Chi Gong These arts were later defined and combined with other skills from many visitors and slowly turned in to KUNG FU
Also kalaripayattu is over 3,000 years old!!! Which is double the age of shaloin Kungfu His research was wrong .. please take 5 seconds too look up how old it is
@@asecond_1incorrect. The foundation of shaolin kungfu came from bodhidharma. China already had family martial arts before bodhi for 2k years. It just wasnt in an institution like shaolin temple. Lets just say that shaolin kung fu was developed in china taking almost all techniques and weopons techs from chinese family arts. The 5 animal kung fu for instance isnt indian. Yes there was sparring eith weopons as well as force and speed training such as art of 1000 steps or iron brom or iron shirt or a better golden bell.
Glad you're tackling these myths about martial arts history, Ramsey! One that I find particularly aggravating is the myth about black belts representing an ancient tradition of a master's belt being covered blood and dirt. It usually tends to be perpetuated by people obsessed with arguing what a "tRuE bLaCk BeLt" means, which they always seem to conveniently have an arbitrary time frame for (and incidentally, one that just so happens to line up with the one *their* instructors prefer, funny how that works.) I find this myth aggravating for a number of reasons. For one; we have ample documentation that the belt system as a concept was wholesale invented by Jigoro Kano after founding judo, and he explicitly meant for black belts to be an intermediate rank. The romanticized idea that the belt represents *mastery* is something veterans from WWII/Korea/etc. made up in order to milk more membership dues from their students. For another, how do these people explain other belt colors? To steal/expand upon a joke from Jesse Enkamp, do yellow belts represent peeing on your belt? Do green belts represent blowing your nose with your belt? Do browns belt represent using your belt to wipe where the sun doesn't shine? For the life of me, I can't understand why people are so desperate to cling to this Quixotic myth, one well-documented to be nonsense, for the sake of "protecting an ancient tradition" that's not even as old as revolvers or lightbulbs.
@@RamseyDewey Very true. I'll admit I got the specific details jumbled, but I definitely remember that a lot of the ideas out there are based on old wives' tales made to milk more money from western students in the 50's and 60's.
@@RamseyDewey "Legend" has it that Kano got the idea from swimming instructors who tied black bands around the arm of people they knew could swim and white around those who were beginners. Quoting from the belt section of my site: "The awarding of coloured and black belts is not an ancient tradition, and its adoption arose from Kano needing a way to differentiate between his beginner (White Belt), intermediate (Brown Belt) and advanced (Black Belt) students. The first two people promoted to 1st Dan Black Belt had one year of training in Judo. Later in 1926 one of Kano’s students in England, 小泉 軍治 Master Gunji Koizumi, would expand upon the system and include the multitude of colours which we are accustomed to today. 1883: White, Brown & Black Belts for rank originate in Judo 1922: Shotokan Karate borrows Judo’s belt and rank system 1926: Extra coloured belts are added to Judo 192x: Shotokan also adds extra coloured belts 194x: Korean martial arts schools perpetuate the belt and rank system" www.nbtkda.com/belts
@@RamseyDewey Fair enough, looks like I got my history slightly mixed up. I definitely remember that the modern ideas about time length were largely derived from GIs in western countries trying to get their students to stay longer so they could milk more money from them.
I was always told by my judo instructor that being a black belt meant that you had attained competency in all stanard, and advanced judo techniques. That's it. I have always told my guitar students something similar about attaining Grade 8 in an instrument. When I got my judo black belt I certainly didn't feel like a master, I went to the same judo school as Tom and Pete Cousins, who were among the best judokas the UK has ever produced and they had been beating my ass since I was 6, so I was under no illusions about what that belt meant in real terms, lol
Bodidharma was also said to have originally been denied entry to the Shaolin Temple for 9 years, during which he lived in a cave and meditated outdoors, ultimately cracking away the rock in a cliff with his incredible power of the mind, which so impressed the Venerable Abbot that he finally granted him entry into the temple complex. So this is as historically accurate as Xīyóu Jì (Journey to the West).
The foundation of kung fu came from India From an Indian martial art called Kalaripayuttua Bodidharama taught them kalari as well as yogic breathing practices These practices were later turned to Chi Gong These arts were later defined and combined with other skills from many visitors and slowly turned in to KUNG FU
Also kalaripayattu is over 3,000 years old!!! Which is double the age of shaloin Kungfu His research was wrong .. please take 5 seconds too look up how old it is
@@asecond_1 the foundation of kung fu DID NOT come from India. Kung fu is not based on Kalaripayattu. Indians are masters of claiming stealing other people's art and culture.
It's hard to argue that shuai jiao is as old as many seem to believe. The modern jacket wrestling commonly called shuai jiao is mostly Manchu/Mongol bohk inspired, meanwhile historical shuai jiao (in its earliest form) was done by ethnic Han who would wear horned head gear and headbutt each other (and there was no jacket). Shuai jiao doesn't have an unbroken lineage, and bears nearly zero resemblance to its origin. The concept of wrestling has advancement been around in China for thousands of years, but the same could be said for other civilizations because wrestling tends to be a default in terms of folk combat sports. Mu Shin Martial Culture has made an amazing video essay on the history and clarification of shuai jiao. But I definitely agree that the claim that kung fu wouldn't have existed without India is bollocks. That's assuming that sub cultures cannot develop something on their own without the influence of some other culture.
Ancient Greek art of Pankration is immortalized on pottery and some Egyptian wall paintings. These examples are dated back as for as at least 900 BC. Thus Pankration is about 3000 years old. Probably older because it was wide spread enough to paint and put on pottery
I have to partially disagree. I trained in contemporary wushu and traditional kung fu a couple decades, and I've noticed quite a few similarities between Shaolin Quan and Indian arts such as Kalaripayuttu. They both employ similar stances and kicks, and they even slap their feet while kicking in a way I thought was a unique quirk of Shaolin styles. They both have forms that include a degree of acrobatics and require a high degree of flexibility. Contrast this with say historical European arts, which were largely devoid of forms as we commonly understand the term and lack the acrobatics and kicks commonly found in East and SE Asian styles. Yes, Kalari doesn't go back more than 800 years, but extant Indian martial arts evolved from older martial arts systems that were contemporary with Bodhidharma. The evidence isn't particularly strong, but I think it's at least *plausible* that some of India's martial arts may have been imported along with Buddhism, and extant Indian martial arts may share a distant common ancestor with old styles of Shaolin quan. That being said, people take this to far and make the absurd claim that India *invented* martial arts. As you explain, China, like every other nation that waged war, had indigenous fighting methods. Europe has had wrestling, submission wrestling and/or forms of pugilisism for thousands of years. The same is true of Africa, the Americas, the Pacific Islands... Martial arts are not a unique Asian invention!
I will cite my information from Meir Shahar who has a PhD in Asian languages and civilizations at Harvard University. He wrote a book called "The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion and the Chinese Martial Arts". The historical records all converge to the notion that much of today's bare-handed Chinese martial arts originated around the Ming-Qing transitioning period. Prior to that, Shaolin was not famous for bare-handed martial arts. They were famous for the staff method. The military general, Qi Jiguang, wrote that he thought bare-handed martial arts wasn't too useful on the battlefield but was good for building up athleticism. Back then, weapons were what's useful on the battlefield. There is a manual called "Exposition of the Original Shaolin Staff Method" from 1610 written by Cheng Zongyou. There was a Q&A portion in it where a question was raised: “As to the staff, the Shaolin [method] is admired. Today there are many Shaolin monks who practice hand combat (quan), and do not practice staff. Why is that?" Cheng Zhongyou's answer: "...hand combat is not yet popular in the land (quan you wei shengxing hainei). Those [Shaolin monks] who specialize in it, do so in order to transform it, like the staff, [into a vehicle] for reaching the other shore [of enlightenment].” It was so unusual that there's even a question about why Shaolin decided to practice Quan. It admits that bare-handed combat wasn't popular in the land. Therefore, to the degree that Indian martial arts has influenced Chinese martial arts seems negligible.
@@ShadowParalyzer Those quotes imply the contrary, at least when it comes to South Asian influence more broadly. Buddhism has a long history of being associated with martial arts, especially unarmed arts like Muay Boran in Thailand. There is also a Hindu or Sikh component to South Asian martial arts, which include unarmed fighting methods and acrobatic forms of yoga. This may explain why unarmed fighting was practiced at Shaolin when it was otherwise unpopular among Chinese soldiers. Therefore I still think it's at least plausible that there was some influence. After all, Buddhism itself originated in India and was spread by missionaries into neighboring nations. That being said, I agree that the influence on the actual techniques is often greatly overstated if it existed at all. Punching, kicking, wrestling and submissions were nearly universal throughout history, and it only seems otherwise because in the west many native martial arts were turned into more abstract sports, e.g. pugilism into boxing, catch wrestling into freestyle wrestling, Parisian street fighting into modern savate. One can even find strikes, joint locks, chokes and throws in Medieval European fight manuals that look like jujutsu!
I am ashamed that people are fighting over where it originated instead of learning its importance in life and start practicing it. People should stop giving importance to videos spreading negativity instead look for videos that teach technique and positivity about other cultures and beliefs
The foundation of kung fu came from India From an Indian martial art called Kalaripayuttua Bodidharama was a prince from south India who taught them kalari as well as yogic breathing practices These practices were later turned to Chi Gong These arts were later defined and combined with other skills from many visitors and slowly turned in to KUNG FU
@@asecond_1 the foundation of kung fu DID NOT came from India. Kung fu IS NOT based on Kalaripayattu. Indians are the masters of claiming and stealing other people's art and legacy
The exercices Bodidharma taught to the Shaolin Monks, in order to relieve back pain from long sesions of seated meditation, are amazing! They are known as the 8 Pieces of Brocado. Used to be more but, unfortunately, some got lost in time! 😔
While I agree with your statement that Chinese martial arts do not originate from India, Kalaripayattu is estimated to be about 3000 years old. Namely because of ancient Hindu scriptures, which mention Kalaripayattu and estimates from people whom are recognized as reputable historians on the subject, whom place its origins between 200 BCE and 600 CE. Although it's peak popularity was between the 14th and 15th centuries.
The way i heard the story from a shaolin monk is not that bodhidharma brought the martial arts. It was Hui Ke, a former Military officer who accompanied bodhidharma bcs he wanted to learn from him who brought the martial arts to the shaolin temple. Bodhidharma saw the monks would be in a bad physical state and had to implement some movements, and the temple was regularly attacked so Huike trained them in combat. Later on the Temple even invited different fighters to improve the style together. Huike is also the reason why shaolin monks greet with only one hand. Also: kalaripayattus swordwhip style does indeed look very similar to shaolin dao and shield style.
My from study I think Da Mo (Bodidharma) likely brought muscle tendon changing / bone marrow washing to Shaolin, or he used his knowledge from India to create tendon changing / bone marrow washing qi gong, a very important aspect which was introduced to Chinese martial arts. Unsure how likely it is that Da Mo brought more than health arts in the form of Yoga/Qi Gong. As I understand there were already many family style martial arts in China when Da Mo arrived, but the Qi Gong/Yoga practice that Da Mo shared led to some pretty epic martial contributions.
Yes! There are manuscripts regarding bone/tendon washing that is still practiced in Shaolin. And this yogic practice would be more than likely introduced to Shaolin by a peaceful Indian Buddhist monk than any martial system.
The foundation of kung fu came from India From an Indian martial art called Kalaripayuttua Bodidharama taught them kalari as well as yogic breathing practices These practices were later turned to Chi Gong These arts were later defined and combined with other skills from many visitors and slowly turned in to KUNG FU
@@asecond_1 If kalari is a MA system, why are there no resemblance of it in the current MA's world? Evidence such as manuscripts on tendon & marrow cleansing is proof that only yogic exercises were taught & not chi gung which was already practised in Taoism before Bodhidarma was born.
@@MustAfaalikTHERE IS SO MUCH SIMILARITY This dude has no idea what he is talking about I watched a video 3 days ago of a kung fu master and kalari master doing a form together!! And it WAS ALMOST IDENTICAL
Just a small consideration here: history and prehistory are technically distinguished by written notes. History starts with the first written information. Everything we got before any writing system was invented is called prehistory. Cave painting are not written notes so they are prehistory. Would be awesome, though, to find a cave painting of poeple killing a deer with a Kamehameha
The foundation of kung fu came from India From an Indian martial art called Kalaripayuttua Bodidharama taught them kalari as well as yogic breathing practices These practices were later turned to Chi Gong These arts were later defined and combined with other skills from many visitors and slowly turned in to KUNG FU
Also kalaripayattu is over 3,000 years old!!! Which is double the age of shaloin Kungfu His research was wrong .. please take 5 seconds too look up how old it is
This boddidharma claim is not about the physical movement set, is about the Kundalini the internal esoteric magic tradition, the Qui, the energy beam , like kame hame hame that anyone can do , but there is tons of legends and myths about this thing, I think this is more something esoteric, like the Masons , or the kabbalist on occident , batman was trained by a ninja ras al ghul from the Sufi Muslim tradition, this is the thing .... I don't mean is real , what I mean is that is not a lit the movements is about the esoteric the Kundalini the dragon
Dude they can’t even fathom to believe about yoga , kalari the fck they’ll understand about Kundalini its out of their leagues entirely & the mention of Kabbalah & Qlippoth is beyond their comprehension. I’m aware of everything that you mentioned as I’m on the Left Hand Path being an Indian I clearly understood what you implied
This is an unfair comparison. The whole story is so much more complicated than that. India is not even known for recording many things that India. Hence we see many events in the history of India as being borderline myths because sages didn’t record as much in text in comparison to oral. Oral traditions eventually break off chain and become forgotten eventually. We may not know today but tomorrow we may find out that India had something to do influence wise with Chinese martial arts etc. again it’s much more complicated than what it seems
One again, even if Shaolin martial arts are 100% Indian in origin, that doesn’t account for the hundreds of other Chinese martial arts that developed independently and prior to Shaolin martial arts.
@@RamseyDewey Agreed Sir. I may not know as much about the history of China but understandably China had many golden eras of cultural advancements (Zhao and Han dynasty) that encompass and include martial arts advancements as well before any Indian or Buddhist influence from the relative west (Indian subcontinent in this case). This is true. However Indian influence is on a spectrum. The current evidence now does not say all and there are inconsistencies no different than that of the life the Buddha and his disciples who were also from India. But it is not a dichotomy. Its not just yes or no. It's a complicated story uptill now. I believe Bodhidharma may have been a real person yet how he lived his life? Not even Im sure. but heck there's always a grain of truth here and there for every myth out there. Which is why myths are still around even after thousands of years.
Probably kung fu (as a concept) developed as the people of China applied the Buddhist teachings to the folk arts which they were already practicing...since Bodhidharma is revered as a sage in both countries, it would make sense for people to attribute kung fu to Bodhidharma, even though it might not be strictly accurate history...
He was talking about Bodhidharma. That is where the claim about Indian influence came from. You have to show that there was sufficient cultural exchanged before Bodhidharma to make your claim.
If anything, early Shaolin received some form of Yoga, which is perhaps still practiced in evolved variations, such as the single fingered handstand or the double fingers pointing to the temple side elbow plank. But martial arts? Nah, that probably entered the temple via retired/exiled/refugee Chinese military personnel.
@@RamseyDeweyyou are talking about the modern formation of Yoga, however the practices were derived from methods of older traditions. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga
Yea, I read something like that as well, and I don't know enough to refute you. However I don't think people argued that people from India invented Chinese martial arts, but they set the foundation for Shaolin King Fu. I highly doubt that India had no influence on Chinese martial arts. Maybe they're referring to more of the breathing and meditation exercises, and they combined that with martial arts. I think the accurate explanation is that there is a significant influence on Chinese martial arts from India, NOT that Indians invented Chinese martial arts.
Great insight. Being an Indian, I would like to state what I think. I also think that there must be atleast some kind of similarity between the techniques. Tbh, we have some similarities. I would like to mention whatever I have observed. 1. Silambam is a staff based martial art (as far as I know). Staff being a common weapon, there are some movements common between silambam and weapon based kung fu. 2. I have seen videos of Kalaripayattu practitioners doing crescent kicks and 360 crescent kicks (but never seen them spar though). Crescent kick can be found in kung fu too. 3. There are some stances/exercises derived from yoga in both kalaripayattu and kung fu. 4. Theres another weapon based martial arts originated among sikh community (Gatka). It also has staff and swords as weapons (but that clearly is comparitively newer to kung fu). What I believe there are just a few elements common in indian martial arts and kung fu. This might be purely coincidental but yes, cant rule out the possibility of Bodhidharma contributing to kung fu in some way or the other. And yes, giving credit for origin of kung fu to bodhidharma alone would be a big inaccuracy. Since shaolin kung fu has evolved alot. Anyway, great video coach.
Yeah, as I read from some of the other comments, I too gathered from the myth that Bodhidharma simply made Shaolin martial arts really strong because the monks added his chi kung technique which made their bodies super strong and gave extreme power to their attacks (note I grew up with the Yang Jwing-ming books and it is hard to tell where or when I first thought that).
I'm so glad you brought this up. Because I have implied it in one if my loooong rants, that there are core parts of what we think of as king fubthat came from India. But kung fu did NOT come from India. The only parts that can be said to MAYBE have come from idea are breathing techniques which became qigong. But even that, mixed with so much existing Chinese medicine and other techniques that you can't say that it is 100% from India. And China is big. I mean, like really big. Even if you could say it came from idea, that would inly be true for southern stiyes of Chinese martial arts. What about all of the influence from Russia? Mongolia? This myth is asinine. But there is a kernel of truth to information passing from one culture to another. A kernel. That's it. Also, these people think that this one guy was the first time China interacted with India? They existed right next to each other forever. Even with the mountains between them there was a tiny bit of trade going on. Maybe not arge mercantile trade, or even cultural trade, nut trade nonetheless less. Ramsey, look at Indian breathing techniques. Compare them ton real qigong. Then make a decision. The earth, fire, water, air breathing learned came from India. I learned 5 "forms" the last one teaches you to switch between those types if breathing while fighting.)
*U R nothing know about Yoga! Actually, Yoga is far from a modern invention. The origins of yoga can be traced back to over 5,000 years in ancient India. 🇮🇳* *The earliest mentions of yogic practices appear in the "Rigveda" and later texts such as the "Upanishads". Additionally, the "Yoga Sutras of Patanjali", which were compiled around the "2nd century BCE", serve as a foundational text of traditional yoga practices.*
Well no. History being a permanent, transcribed record of events, as related in this video. Events preceding history were not formally recorded. Ergot prehistory.
Thanks for another great video, Coach. For what it’s worth, there are two good books written by professional historians that should put this claim to rest: Chinese Martial Arts by Peter Lorge, and The Shaolin Monastery by Meir Shahar.
It's far more plausible that different martial arts and fighting styles emerged independently across different human cultures, many of them converging towards some common techniques and principles. And it's all right Ramsey. It's a very typically Indian thing to claim that everything originated in India. You'll not change the minds of people who insist this
The Shaolin temple is like a university but it's professors were former soldiers that passed down their fighting arts. China has had martial arts since the Zhou dynasty from 1046bce. Therefore the Shaolin temple did not create anything new, there more like wushu-mma creators.
Hi Ramsey, first and foremost, thanks for the consistent martial arts content you've been putting out thus far. It helps that there are practicing martial artist who delve into concepts and experiment as opposed to armchair-bound keyboard warriors. Now, addressing the content in this video, I believe it could use a little attenuation. Let's tackle 3 specific areas, if you'd be open to the notion: Knowledge and exposure to south indian martial arts: As you mentioned in the video, your knowledge of indian martial arts is limited. Furthermore, the first examples quoted not only for India but on the martial practices of other cultures seem limited to wrestling. As you know, wrestling is the most ancient form of martial arts, pre-historic even, as it is the first application of force that comes innately to all creatures... not just humans. However, there are multiple technical systems of south Indian martial arts mentioned in records of it as practiced martial skills. Two such martial art commonly practiced in south India was Adimurai and Silambam, Tamil warfare arts that was predominant with records dating back to 400 BCE. It's traceability through body mechanics and similarity of forms: Many branches of adimurai share similarities. This similarity was passed on to south-east Asia and can be found in their martial art forms such as Pencak silat, silat, and some empty hand/stick-based Filipino martial arts as well, from Indian, specifically south indian interactions with south east Asia from 1st CE, when the kingdom of funan (now Cambodia) was established due to the marriage between a brahmin merchant turned monk and a naga chieftain's daughter. The Nagas were a race that existed well in the Vedic age (1500 BC and 600 BC) and is prominently featured as warriors and teachers in the great Indian epic, the Mahabharatha. The forms of these martial arts, when traced, would lead back to it's closest descendant adimurai, which was the precursor to most south Indian martial arts. Several traits such as the L stance or back stance, the lowering of the body to mid-height, and the mechanics of the transfer of power through open hand strikes in a swinging motion, coupled with basic kicks share are evident in asian martial arts. The timeline of existence: So, what does this mean? We know that Bodhidharma was originally a pallava prince in south India and a prince. The Pallavas ruled from 275CE to 875CE. Bodhidharma arrived in China in 527. Assuming he was 27 when arrived in china, this would peg his birth around 500 CE. Meaning, that the martial arts he was exposed to and excelled in, though was recorded in 400 BCE, was practiced way before, through a system known as Guru-Shishya Parambarai. Meaning, that the lessons of the art were transmitted through the teacher (Guru) to their students (Shishya) in a codified oral and visual practice that became a tradition (Parambarai). This concept is not new to martial arts, it's similar to the concept of "Lineage of martial art" utilized in Chinese martial arts. My take on this: Bodhidharma may not transplanted the Indian martial arts wholesale and called it kungfu. Instead, given that he was adept in the ways of martial arts, he would've recognized similarities between the pre-existing techniques of the land he arrived in (China) and incorporated his knowledge of Adimurai and Silambam into these arts to codify them, similar to the guru-shishya parambarai he was exposed to. Since he was also knowledgable, recording that knowledge to overcome the limitation of the oral-visual tradition he was exposed to, would've been an optimal route taken to prevent the loss of this knowledge.
@@Muniswarannn Thanks for reading through the comment and responding to it. I don't expect them to, and why should they? As scions of the race and culture we descend from, it is our duty to seek, understand and dispel ignorance: "Tamaso ma Jotir Gamaya", from the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, literally translates into English " From the Darkness (of Ignorance), make me go (i.e. Lead me) towards the Light (of Knowledge)". I've merely provided information that already exists and have provided inferences from my observation of existing data. If anything, we should delve deeper and further re-discover what we've lost and preserve what we're losing, before adapting it to the world we live in.
Thank you for this, Ramsey. However, there is one correction. Kalaripayattu didn't develop in the 12th century. There are mentions of it in the Sangam literature, and they were compiled between 3rd Century BCE and 3rd Century CE.
This is the first time I hear that Shaolin kung fu was based on a pre existing Indian martial art. I've read a different story. When Bodhidharma came to the Shaolin temple, he found the monks lacking focus for deep meditation exercises. In order to strengthen their mind, he thought to strengthen their bodies first. He came up with some tao lu as a forms to excerise the body. Similar to Yoga. Gym class if you will. The story doesn't say anything about him teaching the monks a pre existing Indian martial arts or that the forms he taught them were even intended to be fighting forms. But the story says that those physical excerise forms later evolved into a martial art due to circumstances. Shaolin was being frequently attacked. So the monks worked with what they knew and made the gym class into a martial art. Based on that, it's safe to assume Bodhidharma made those forms up from his head. Ancient China is older than Ancient Greece. Of course there were many Chinese martial arts waaaay before the Shaolin style that was used in many armies in China. I would guess the Shaolin even combined pre existing Chinese military fighting styles with the Bodhidharma physical exercises to create a distinct stylised fighting discipline.
Very interesting video here. Amongst Karate practioners, just like Kabudo weapons myth, many believe and have been taught for a very long time that the Bodhidarma myth is in fact history. However from a historian's perspective (not me, but what historians have commented on) there is more historical accuracy with King Arthur mythology than there is with the Bodhidarma myth. Real masters have been taught this myth as fact, so it is still very common for modern dojos to teach this myth as fact. Pop culture like Fatal Fury and Street Fighter, if I recall correctly also tap into this myth. By the way, Kubodo weapons were never regular farm implements that secretly were weapons in disguise. Historians, authors, and teachers have all had a hand in spreading the lies. Somtimes by ignorance, others for recognition, greed, or some other selfish motive. Good video.
My name is Scots/Irish - Tyler Jackson Auld. People don't think about names enough. Tyler - a roof tiler, usually, tile floors weren't popular until fairly recently. Jackson - son of Jack (I'm not haha). Auld - literally old. My family is unusually long lived. My two great grandmothers lived to be 97.
Thank you. In pinyin is Zheng Manqing and the fact that you don't know him, I believe answers my question. Modern Tai Chi is in great part his responsibility, he popularized the form of Yang Cheng Fu, making it shorter (37 movement Yang Short Form), he escaped to Taiwan when the communists took power, later in mainland China was created the 24 movements form, imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. He was one of the very first to bring Tai Chi specially, and to a point Chinese painting medicine and culture to the West. Cheers
Seemingly every culture developed some sort of unarmed fighting art. In that human beings typically have 2 arms and 2 legs, and the same joints and points of vulnerability, it should be no surprise that these cultures' arts have a lot of similarities. Parallel truths, so to speak.
Hello Mr Dewey, hope you're doing well, thanks for all your valuable content. Please someday make a video about how to prevent or reduce the damage from being slammed.
The foundation of kung fu came from India From an Indian martial art called Kalaripayuttua Bodidharama taught them kalari as well as yogic breathing practices These practices were later turned to Chi Gong These arts were later defined and combined with other skills from many visitors and slowly turned in to KUNG FU
@@asecond_1 the foundation of kung fu DID NOT come from India. Kung fu is not based on Kalaripayattu. Indians are the masters of claiming and stealing other people's art and legacy
@@asecond_1 No, it didn't. There is no documented record of Bodhidharma ever teaching the Chinese any martial arts. Even in this video, Ramsay talks about multiple martial arts styles in China long pre-dated Bodhidharm's visit to China. I guess you didn't watch the whole thing. Plus, there are no similar moves. Kung Fu existed several centuries before Bodhidharma visited there.
From the kung fu side of the story it was strangers that brought martial arts in from roughly the direction of India and was developed in China around animal movements only to have these animal movements removed in Korea and Japan.
How I understand it is Bodi Dharma taught his Chinese disciples yoga. They then used it as a strengthening base exercise for their fighting style which became Shaolin Kung Fu. Hence no similarity to Kaalyrupa.
@@asecond_1 The age of Kalari does not change my suspicion that it wasn't taught the Shaolin monks. They both have some similarities in a few of the stances, but I think that's more related to the similar yogic root. Other than that, there isn't much in common.
I understood it to be that the arrival of Buddhism in China included the importation of meditation exercises, including the observation of nature and that Buddhist practice of observing nature led to the development of animal forms in the Shaolin Temple. Thats not the same as saying that the forms themselves being imported from Indian Buddhism. This interpretation does match history. Buddhism arrived in China from India (carried by many monks and merchants, not just one mythical one) during the Han dynasty (202 BC to 220 AD). This is about the same time that we see the development of the "Five Animal Play" in qigong exercises. You don't see Five Animal Kung Fu as we know it for about another thousand years (the 13th century AD) and its generally known to have evolved from Luohanquan (also called 18 Hands of Luohan...Luohan meaning "protector of the Buddha"" as my first Longfist teacher told me, not sure if that's correct), which itself originated around 600 AD. How the animal aspects got mixed in with 18 Hands is a mystery (if it happened that way at all). So...there's probably some level of truth in the connection between the Animal Forms and Buddhist meditative practices from India, but its much less direct than "Bodidharma taught them."
The first time I learned about this myth, I read it on a Snapple bottle cap fact. The way they phrased it was “karate comes from India.” I guess if the story had any truth to it, that would kind of make sense. Alas, it does not
I love Ramsey Dewey QnAs...came to learn about martial arts, learned about society and material science as well Edit: I should add I used to believe in the Bodhidharma story until watching this video
Also, this talk about India is hilarious. Indians don't realise that India only started existing after 1947. Before that, it was an entire region of small kingdoms but never a country called India. So anything that happened in that region cannot be called indian. It could be Nepalese, Sri Lankan, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, bhutanese or even belonging to a certain region in the south Asian subcontinent.
Yoga means “skill in action”, and you yourself said Kung-foo means “great skill”. Bodhidharma emphasised on the Dhyana aspect of Yoga while preaching in ancient China, which became Chan Buddhism, and later Zen Buddhism in Japan.
I’ve heard that it was customary for the Emperor to grant leniency for criminals who were willing to commit to monastic life, and so the Shaolin became a hub for not only monks, but criminals, terrorists, militants, insurgents, retired soldiers, Taoist cultivators, etc. This is actually why it developed into such a rich martial tradition, it wasn’t even developed by the monks themselves but rather the rifraff they absorbed, cross training with and learning from each other.
Hallo Coach, Love your content. Love your non nonsense approaches to martial arts. My main Question: had you ones had an shoulder injury, and how / what did you durring your rehabilitation. - I shattered my collarbone/clavicula bone around six weeks ago, due to my injury i worried to break it again if i would be takendown or if someone place his weiht on to me (i'm training BJJ). Do you think it would be an good ide to during i'm take time off from BJJ, would it be an good ide to train in striking (Savate, Kickboxing ect)? (i know you not an doctor, but would like your opinion anyway) PS: Really like your videos and sorry for my Shitty english (i'm not an native english speaker).
This is good. The shaolin cultures lifestyles were changed by buddhist practices wich gives it that specific character that can be tested to Bodhidarma. However, its safe to say the forms were already in place in the old confucian ways hence the "iron cloak" mentality that it is not a pleasantry but like meat, alcohol and fighting wich was/is frowned at by Bhuddists Thanks.
Having done some research on Chinese Martials reliable historical sources point that almost all martial arts including Chang Quan, Tai Chi Quan, Bagua Zhang, Xing Yi, Baji were created by soldiers or warriors not by monks or immortals in temples. And most of the weapons were the main point and empty hand was in the background.
>"the most difficult technology for humans to master is to record, preserve and transmit information over long periods of time" That's an extremely good, we forget that recently we have access to so much information that we don't appreciate the ability to have a whole library in the palm of your hand. A true privilege that no other civilization had in all of human history. Great video btw.
There was Te, which was China Hand, before the 36 families. Then there was the 36 families, ambassadors from the Ming Dynasty. Then 500 years later, there was Southern Calling White Crane, which became Goju Ryu. And 100 years later, Uechi Ryu, supposedly Southern White Crane. These are the major Karate roots. However, there were minor influences from other Okinawans traveling to China, especially to learn Buddhism, or for 101 other reasons.
It is disputed that Bodidharma was even from India, he was broadly from an area called the western regions, he could have been Persian, Central Asian, or from the land of the Indus (note I say land of the Indus because India only incorporates part of the Indus, when I mean Indus, I mean the land from North west Pakistan all the way down to South India).
No, this is nationalistic reductionism. The India back then was not “India” as a nation, it was split into various empires and domains. The area encompassing India and Pakistan was part of the British empire longer than Pakistan and India have existed.
3 laws of physics. Kung Fu lives in everything we do. Different styles have different origins, but a lot of them work the exact same way. At their core, all of them operate using the 3 laws of physics to do the same things. This is why they teach soldiers to march, and boxers to jog with their feet straight in the same direction as their eyes. Just like in running, if your feet are straighter, your impact, speed and balance become fucked up levels of good. That's how wing chun works, and boxing. The position of your feet affects a lot. Do not point your feet in an outward triangle, like a v. Point them either straight, or slightly inward for kicking balance. Keeps you from falling, and makes your kicks fast and hard. The wing chun triangle footwork. You point your big toes together, and make your feet form a triangle before kicks. Too fast to see. You keep your eyes on the conjunction of their clavicle, like in fencing, or a sword or knife fight. Gives you view of everything at once, and is the easiest way to tell what's coming. They can't trick you. Wing chun knife fighting is great. The centerline principal is part of the basics of wing chun. Not answering any replies or reading them. I respect India's history, but I got into Kung Fu, and it changed my whole life for the better. Trying to practice Shaolin Buddhism. Regardless of history, this stuff saved my life, and kept me safe more times than I can count. I'm not perfect. I have a lot to learn. Even skilled masters need to have a firm understanding of Kung Fu, whichever style, at it's core. A boxer, a knight, or a gunslinger. Look up southpaw and Orthodox stance. It's in boxing. Wing chun works like that, just with more kicks, different strikes blocks, and grabbing. The same strikes as in boxing, plus more. If you like boxing, wing chun would be perfect for you. Especially if you like infighting boxing. Wing chun Kung Fu is known as the science of infighting. The best martial art for boxers to learn for self defense, without gloves on. More possibilities. Knife fighting, and learning how to fight with anything, even a rock. I love boxing. Have a lot of respect for it. Not to shit on boxing, at all. Martial arts, teaches you differently than boxing, for a much different purpose. I've been in some bad situations where I couldn't run. Kung Fu is a great option in places like Canada, where I live, for legal self defense. Or illegal self defense. With a knife. Since it's Canada, and the self defense laws are ass. Even if you don't use a knife, it works the same way barehanded. The zoro theme has now started playing. I can hear it for some reason. Just kidding. I'm a complete asshole, I know, but hopefully this info can help someone. If it gets you into martial arts, it makes me happy. The skeleton, and form, is what lets you shift your weight, either fast, or hard. That's how Orthodox (right handed stance), and Southpaw (left handed stance) both work. You lock it in with your hip, step into it with your back foot whether it's with your fast hand, or the strong one. This makes the front hand faster, and the one in the back way stronger. That's why fighters hold their arms like that, and make the hands meet in the middle for blocking. Every boxer was either right handed, left handed or both. The way you train yourself to be ambidextrous with both fists and legs is by jump rope, marching, jogging, or running. It's about rhythm and footing. Jump rope and jogging, are boxing classics for that reason. Do your roadwork. Keep your feet straight, pointed in the same direction as your eyes. Keeps you faster, makes it so you don't hurt your ankles or knees, makes it possible to dodge, and makes you harder to knock down from any direction. Balance is important. Very. The best boxers were switch hitters, like Jack Dempsey. This is how to train it. I always fought like that instinctively without knowing what it is. I do infighting, and switch hit, just on instinct, which is why I got so into wing chun. I'm comfortable with it. It's saved my ass before. I got attacked a few times in my life. Not proud of it, or what I did to protect myself, of course. Not reading or answering any comments. I like learning, not arguing with people who can't even jog up or down a set of stairs quickly, with their feet straight, without falling.
For sure Bohdidarma taught the monks prayer teachings and how to defend themselves from animals. Would Bohdidarma and the monks refine and evolve the self defense against animals as Shaolin, or would the monks refine it themselves?
I think martial arts was banned in India so the date of Kalari is unknown, but supposedly they practiced in secret and thats how it was preserved. India has a lot of ancient history so combat training must have existed in some form but this is purely speculative.
Thanks for the interesting video. Of course, kung-fu has zero connection with China’s neighbour to the south! Chinese martial arts predate the Shaolin myth by millennia, a fact well attested by abundant archaeological and textual evidence. According to Adam Hsu: “Shaolin kung-fu is mostly a fairy tale, and the origins of Shaolin kung-fu is more mythical than real. … At no time was the Shaolin Temple considered a kung-fu school. To assert that kung-fu originated there with Ta Mo (Bodhidharma) is absurd. The Chinese brought kung-fu to the Shaolin Temple and, before that, it had already been practiced throughout China for hundreds of years. … In the evolution of kung-fu, Shaolin kung-fu holds little importance. Shaolin didn’t even develop its own style. What is really ridiculous, though, is to pretend that Shaolin is the birthplace of kung-fu. It is time to stop calling what may be the grandchild the grandfather.” These words are taken from the chapter on Shaolin in The Sword Polisher’s Record, Tuttle Publishing, 1998. Any kung-fu style claiming a connection with the Shaolin Temple is basically using the purported connection for marketing.
What if the Indian Buddhist monks brought back Chinese martial arts from their missionary trips to China and what we see is an actual role Reversal of origins?
I believe you are thinking of the term “Arian”. Real Caucasians are ethnic group of people from the area surrounding Ural mountains, like the Republic of Georgia. Real ethnic Arians were from the Punjab peninsula.
@@RamseyDeweyAryan is usually considered a linguistic group. The idea of race was a colonial invention. They were xtian countries and it's wrong to steal. The nazis advanced race theory so they could exterminate scapegoats. But american based religions developed their own theological race theory. Some challenge that from within. But people disagree
I am the Shaolin Kratos. Greek origin joke for you. "This is Sparta". That push kick he used to push the guy into the pit, was actually pretty good. It's like IP Man, if he was wearing sandals, and liked to throw babies off cliffs
I don't have a dog in this fight but I'm wondering if kalaripayattu has a similar training structure in terms of prearranged forms in relation to other traditional martial arts. I also wonder if this type of training is cultural element in that it's not found often in more western arts (boxing, wrestling, fencing etc.)
There is A LOT of Kalaripayattu that is similar or even identical to Chinese martial arts and Asian martial arts in general. But many of these things are not rwally implied to be borrowed from Kalari. For example, both Kalari and most Kung Fu styles use a lot of Yoga poses in their training and forms, these are used to strenghten their practitioners and make them more flexible. Maybe some Chinese styles DID take this stuff from Yoga, but i'm certain that many of them got them from other exercise disciplines or actually came up with them. There's only so many ways to properly exercise without using additional equipment, which Yoga excels at. There's more, like most of Kalari actually being weapon work or grappling that looks like striking in the forms. It's the same case for most of Kung Fu! But the thing is, basically every martial art back then did weapons, and grappling has always been "king" of unarmed combat so of course that the forms and unarmed techniques will be grappling-heavy for most styles of traditional arts! For some examples on this, Wing Chun was actually a weapon art with grappling and little bit of unarmed striking, same with Xing Yi, Same with Taijiquan (Taichi), same with Baguazhang, same with Bajiquan, and same with many animal styles like Crane and Mantis. Many styles are like that, huh? And i believe that even if Shaolin was indeed based on Kalari, it's influence would hardly have such a drastic effect on styles that had next to nothing to do with Shaolin, like the Taoist arts (Xing Yi, Bagua, Taichi). So once again, this is just the natural order of things, weapons are strong, grappling is strong, people will include these into their arts that are supposed to be used for actual fighting or for war... There are more similarities but they are all like that
I remember seeing a video of a kalaripayatu practitioner, who felt that because i the past there were Chinese settlements in India and Indian settlements in China some ideas and techniques might have been shared. This was probably during the era of the silk road trading between east and west
@@TomMack6466 yeah, lot of stuff must have been shared indeed, that's just how the world works, that's very true for martial arts as well. Now then, i don't agree with saying that all of Kung Fu or all of a certain Kung Fu style comes from india. I haven't found proof of any of that. Now then, some styles do share a lot with Kalari and maybe borrowed it from there, so one could at least argue that if Kalari didn't exist, that Kung Fu style wouldn't exists either or would be very different
Well that's pretty obvious. Just not what most people would tell you. They were doing many forms in f martial arts long before he was even born. He simply taught the monks at the Shaolin more about meditation etc to help them train more and harder.
The problem with MA is due to evolution of weapons & armor old forma die off or merge with new. This happens constantly. Sometimes this will cause the old forms to come back. Looking at you Tongbei. Modern body armor bringing back a favorite in the days of ancient heavy armor.
We do have primary evidence that bodhidharman certainly existed and he did contribute to the growth and development of chan buddhism in shaolin temple 15th century texts ie non primary sources also credited DaMo with creation of shaolin style kung fu
Qi Gong is well attested to BCE - 1000 years prior to anything Shaolin. Most Ashtanga yoga postures are modern and european - a handful of sitting postures are 1000 years old and possibly as old as 2000. But Qigong without doubt is more well documented as being older-Its Taoist medicine and longevity from at least the warring states period
China was/is a large empire and absorbed influences from everywhere, as well as generating its own. Chinese martial arts evolved in China, and just because many styles absorbed influences from elsewhere doesn't mean those influences are the "origin" of that martial art. It's just an influence, one among many, and blended and evolved further.
China was an empire until the cultural revolution. It’s now a representative republic. You could argue that China is a cultural hegemony, which shares some similarities to an empire, but “empire” would still be the wrong word.
Silambam is very shaolin-like. Also Shuajiao came from Mongolian Wrestling so that's really only one example you gave. Having that turn into shaolin would have been a much bigger stretch.
Your last words "Let's stop spreading myths!" were like you winked an eye at me! My new book happens to be called "Myths and blind spots in the fighting arts' world... After the Bible, it's the next good book for you!" (Part #1) All I can say, is that it's an eye opener, maybe an eye popper sometimes as well... (A riddle.) Nice video!
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
BLASPHEMY!! 😂
The fact is that people like theses kind of stories... Like in Hokuto no ken, and Soten no Ken... And forget that it is just manga stories... And not history ! And History with H.
@@martialartnerd1396 I love Hokuto No Ken but what's Soten No Ken? Was that that prequel series?
Right on Jesse ... It's crazy, huh? Kinda like sayin' "Kara-te's" birth-place is Okinawa, right? Like, why are all of the Okinawan Karate terms (including "Karat-te") in the Japanese language, if most people in Okinawa do not speak Japanese?
The foundation of kung fu came from India
From an Indian martial art called Kalaripayuttua
Bodidharama taught them kalari as well as yogic breathing practices
These practices were later turned to Chi Gong
These arts were later defined and combined with other skills from many visitors and slowly turned in to KUNG FU
Also kalaripayattu is over 3,000 years old!!!
Which is double the age of shaloin Kungfu
His research was wrong .. please take 5 seconds too look up how old it is
People dont realize the Shaolin Temple was famous historically primarily as a religious research institution. It laid the foundation of Chan Buddhism which the Japanese call Zen. The Indian monk Bodhidharma was one of the creators.
Chan requires long hours, even days of meditation and the monks were too physically weak to withstand it. Legend has it Bodhidharma taught them physical exercises. This was probably a form of yoga.
Later on the temple became an extremely important religious center. The Emperor granted them a lot of land and they were rich enough to recruit a full scale army to defend temple property. These were the warrior monks. They are like lay brothers in Catholic monastery. Not strictly monks but devout soldiers who already had military training.
Most soldiers back then were peasant levees with little training. But these religious warriors trained every day for years. They had no wives and children. A school of traditional martial art typically die out after a few generations, but as an institution the temple can keep some styles alive for much longer.
Very good reply. Kung fu is Chinese. This "style" of fighting and exercise forms was developed after an Indian monk taught the Shaolin monks, breathing, and yoga like techniques. Gong Fu did not need Indian influence. It did however develope in a way because of it in a way through the Shaolin branch of martial arts.
The Shaolin warrior monks would have seemed like super soldiers compared to the common man in the areas of what is now called China.
Imo the forms and movements that we see after the earlier 1900s are not the original fighting techniques/movements. This is due to the many culture/war/religious events that have occurred in China.
Supposedly, Bodhidharma taught them the "18 Hands of Lohan", a series of movements that are some kind of Chi Kung, not fighting movements. Supposedly, though, Shaolin Kung Fu was derived from these movements, though I don't see the connection other than in the most general way.
@@varanid9 Buddidarma was supposedly from India. Which can be used for the purposes of stating kung fu came from India. Or at least one claim for it.
@@The_Okami Some kind of Kung Fu, perhaps. Fighting arts, not necessarily. The histories/legends themselves do not specify that he taught a fighting method.
You're just buying into the same myth that is debunked in the very video you are replying to. The same myths circling around the Kung Fu are for the meditations. There are multiple artworks dating back before the founding of Shaolin, (and evidence that they existed before the founding of Buddhism itself, or at the least Buddhism coming to China) showing those exercises, in detail, local to the area. The 18 Lohan/Baduanjin/qigong/etc have a clear pre-Buddhist/pre-Shaolin origin.
"There's kungfu in everything"
-Mr. Han(Jackie Chan(The Karate kid))
The foundation of kung fu came from India
From an Indian martial art called Kalaripayuttua
Bodidharama taught them kalari as well as yogic breathing practices
These practices were later turned to Chi Gong
These arts were later defined and combined with other skills from many visitors and slowly turned in to KUNG FU
Also kalaripayattu is over 3,000 years old!!!
Which is double the age of shaloin Kungfu
His research was wrong .. please take 5 seconds too look up how old it is
@asecond_1 There was no India in The Karate Kid, but there was a Black(African American) kid in it, though played by Will Smith son. I think there was also the token white kid in it, too, played by young American heart throbs, Justin Bieber, and he also sang the movie theme song too.
The move gross over $359,126,022.59 dollar worldwide. On a budgeting of only $40 million, a successful movie.
Unfortunately, Will Smith's son didn't not pursue his acting career. He tried to follow his father's other footsteps into the music industry but failed. His sister also went into the music industry but failed as well.
Despite his many failures. Will Smiths son finally succeed in starting a highly successful fashion line.
Fast forward, many later, his father slapped his former friend Chris Rock, and everyone forgot about Will Smiths son.
As you can see, there is no India, role, or influence in The Karate Kid. Where Jackie Chan playing Mr. Han said "there's kungfu in everything".
@@asecond_1 what does India have to do with The Karate Kid movie?
@@asecond_1 It doesn't address the main argument, though - whatever was somewhat verifiably brought from India is not "kung fu", and definitely not whole "kung fu" even if we agree to call the sum of Chinese martial arts "kung fu".
We know one possible instance of Indian martial art being brought into China through Shaolin, but Chinese fought for millenia before Shaolin had become a thing, nevermind even later tradition of Shaolin warror monks.
Even if the trip in question didn't happen, Chinese would still have their martial arts and their martial "kung fu" in the form of majority of what remains of it in the current timeline.
Heard the indian monk handed down excercises more akin to Yoga that eventually morphed into Shaolin kung fu, while other fighting styles would filter into the temple via refugees, fugitives etc. Making the temple sort of a martial arts University. Shaolin however could possibly ascribe the deep spiritualization of kung fu to India and the utilization of the martial arts as a meditative tool and not just a practical one
Speak English
Honestly I am so jealous Indian martial arts got preserved and most of the history of Mexican martial arts was burned
What Mexican martial arts were there? Curious now.
@@ubcroel4022 I know that's not the answer you're probably interested in, but whatever locals used before their culture took what was essentially a fatal hit - it probably existed, and we probably know very little about it, if anything.
@ubcroel4022 the more traditional combat styles were lost like the Eagle and Jaguar warrior training. But also more niche things like developing poisons, and types of grappling.
There are no Mexican martial arts.only places with martial arts are Greek(pankration) Asia and Africa.
Most Indian scientific records were burned by invaders, if that makes you feel any good
I think people are confusing Kung Fu with Qi Gong. It seems more plausible that Bodhidarma introduced the Shaolin monks to yoga and ayurvedic medicine.
To be fair. A lot from Kung Fu is either Yoga (bow stance, drop stance, horse stance, etc) or Shuai Jiao/Grappling stuff
@@jestfullgremblim8002 I believe the monks already had their own fighting systems, but incorporated concepts they learned from Indian travelers such as Bodidharma into their practice. Marrow washing in qi gong, for example, is nearly identical to Sun Salutation in yoga.
@@foosmonkey well said. Even the Chinese sources mentions that Bodhidharma only taught the breathing technique to the Shaolin monks. Nothing else. Indians, over hyped it up by claiming Bodhidharma taught the whole martial art system to the Shaolin Monks. Lol
I think that makes a lot more sense. They've found swords in China from over 2000 years ago, so obviously they were fighting. But maybe Qigong could have been introduced from people from India. However the story of Bodhidarma facing a cave wall for 9 years and all those other myths are ridiculous. Just like the story of Wing Chun is ridiculous. It was probably just a bunch of people getting together and training teaching each other stuff. Just like people train and learn with practitioners of other styles now.
@@foosmonkey i don't just believe that, i'm basically sure.
There were all sort of people in the temple, some where soldiers or ex-soldiers, some came from very far, others were just monks, etc.
Of course they had their own martial arts in there! But i do believe that they might have gotten many of their exercises from indian stuff or from some other physical training system, and they probably got some of their concepts and techniques from some indian stuff as well, it is very possible
13:16 Good video, but I’d like to clarify a historical point about Kalaripayattu. This martial art is believed to be around 3,000 years old, much older than the "12th Century" timeline mentioned in the video. There are several pieces of evidence to support this:
*1. Sangam Literature (circa 300 BCE to 300 CE)* - These ancient Tamil texts describe warriors trained in martial arts techniques similar to Kalaripayattu, indicating its early existence.
*2. Ancient Temple Sculptures* - Many temples in South India, dating back to the early centuries of the Common Era, depict warriors in combat poses resembling Kalaripayattu techniques.
*3. Historical Mentions* - Kalaripayattu is referenced in ancient Indian texts such as the Agastya Samhita, linking it to early Indian martial traditions.
Additionally, Bodhidharma is generally dated to the 5th-6th century, well after Kalaripayattu was already in practice. Therefore, suggesting that Kalaripayattu developed after Bodhidharma is historically inaccurate. Understanding the proper timeline helps give a clearer picture of the origins of martial arts.
🇮🇳
It doesn't matter when kalaripayattu was created or developed, whether before or after Bodhidharma, the fact here is Chinese martial arts originated much further back than Bodhidharma, several millennia before Bodhidharma, so for people to claim Bodhidharma brought martial arts to China is an utter nonsense.
Martial arts historians as early as during Qing Dynasty had already debunked such a mythical claim, and this thing was also debunked by Japanese historian, but there are just some people still cling to such a mythical nonsense, and mostly from india. Even the martial Buddhist monks in Shaolin Temple in this modern era debunked such a claim that TCMA came from Bodhidharma.
Chinese martial arts don't really resemble kalaripayattu at all and there's no physical evidence to suggest such a thing
@@weirdno.1uniqueno.173 he's not saying that as proof. Did you not read and understand what he said? It merely clarifies historical information.
@@Toxicgamerdog 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@Toxicgamerdog THERE IS SO MUCH SIMILARITY
This dude has no idea what he is talking about
I watched a video 3 days ago of a kung fu master and kalari master doing a form together!!
And it WAS ALMOST IDENTICAL
I feel fairly certain there will be a Greek origin story in the comments.
There definitely will should be!
I remember hearing some crackpot theory that the Indian martial art that Shaolin kung fu was allegedly based on was actually a result of Alexander the Great's men teaching Indians Pankration.
At this point, I'm just waiting for someone from the Middle East or Egypt to claim Pankration was derived from Mesopotamian or Egyptian martial arts...
For very good reasons.
I've heard Karate *completely* comes from Greece. That's dumb
There were Greek colonies on the borders of India due to Alexander the great's conquest.... 😂😂😂
Even very old karate sources seem to indicate that the Bodhidharma story doesn’t have much basis in fact. Anko Itosu described karate in his precepts as explicitly not being related to Buddhism. I think that what we are seeing here is the effect of the Golden Age Fallacy. You get the same thing in the West where European powers often linked themselves to Ancient Rome, the Romans did the same thing with Troy. Martial arts have a tendency to link themselves to older times and distant places to give themselves legitimacy. A very recent example of this was early MMA marketing itself as a modern Pankration. This is also a factor to consider with the Chinese influence on karate, though in this case there clearly is some direct connection. It’s still difficult to determine exactly what really came from China and what was developed in Okinawa itself. It’s also important to remember that there was a lot of influence from Japanese martial arts in Okinawa as well. I tend to think less came from China than is often reported.
ruclips.net/user/shortsIklX4yL8COk?si=SBN11hwzI-jRPL0P
ruclips.net/user/shortsIklX4yL8COk?si=SBN11hwzI-jRPL0P
You are wrong the forms are the same form shaloin and kalari
And all over Japan and China they have ancient statues of bodidharma
YOU WERE WRONG🤣🤣🤣!
@@asecond_1 yes Bodhidharma is a very important religious figure but his connection to martial arts is questionable. Literary references to this are all fairly recent. For karate specifically, Itosu denied that the art had a connection to Buddhism.
Funakoshi translated "Shorin" as "From Shaolin". It's in his autobiography. A great read.
Really, it does not matter whether Kung Fu came from India mainly because there is no modern equivalent of it here, and we were instrumental in spreading Buddhism anyway, which is a similarly great act.
I first encountered this story as a child interested in Martial Arts I watched a BBC series about Martial Arts called the Way of the Warrior, then I bought the book of the series which repeated this story. I believed it because, I was a child and had little ability to reason, it was the BBC that told it to me, so I believed them. There was no internet to check things up, so I had accepted that Kung Fun had come from India well into adulthood.
The foundation of kung fu came from India
From an Indian martial art called Kalaripayuttua
Bodidharama taught them kalari as well as yogic breathing practices
These practices were later turned to Chi Gong
These arts were later defined and combined with other skills from many visitors and slowly turned in to KUNG FU
Also kalaripayattu is over 3,000 years old!!!
Which is double the age of shaloin Kungfu
His research was wrong .. please take 5 seconds too look up how old it is
The folly of believing the BBC.
@@varanid9 I have since learned not to trust the BBC, however, in my defense I was a child at the time.
I remember that series!
My Bajiquan Sifu told me the same, kung fu did not come from India or a Bodhidarma teaching shaolin monks.
Thanks for you confirming this as a second resource, Ramsey. Keep on teaching
The foundation of kung fu came from India
From an Indian martial art called Kalaripayuttua
Bodidharama taught them kalari as well as yogic breathing practices
These practices were later turned to Chi Gong
These arts were later defined and combined with other skills from many visitors and slowly turned in to KUNG FU
Also kalaripayattu is over 3,000 years old!!!
Which is double the age of shaloin Kungfu
His research was wrong .. please take 5 seconds too look up how old it is
@@asecond_1incorrect. The foundation of shaolin kungfu came from bodhidharma. China already had family martial arts before bodhi for 2k years. It just wasnt in an institution like shaolin temple. Lets just say that shaolin kung fu was developed in china taking almost all techniques and weopons techs from chinese family arts. The 5 animal kung fu for instance isnt indian. Yes there was sparring eith weopons as well as force and speed training such as art of 1000 steps or iron brom or iron shirt or a better golden bell.
Glad you're tackling these myths about martial arts history, Ramsey!
One that I find particularly aggravating is the myth about black belts representing an ancient tradition of a master's belt being covered blood and dirt. It usually tends to be perpetuated by people obsessed with arguing what a "tRuE bLaCk BeLt" means, which they always seem to conveniently have an arbitrary time frame for (and incidentally, one that just so happens to line up with the one *their* instructors prefer, funny how that works.) I find this myth aggravating for a number of reasons.
For one; we have ample documentation that the belt system as a concept was wholesale invented by Jigoro Kano after founding judo, and he explicitly meant for black belts to be an intermediate rank. The romanticized idea that the belt represents *mastery* is something veterans from WWII/Korea/etc. made up in order to milk more membership dues from their students. For another, how do these people explain other belt colors? To steal/expand upon a joke from Jesse Enkamp, do yellow belts represent peeing on your belt? Do green belts represent blowing your nose with your belt? Do browns belt represent using your belt to wipe where the sun doesn't shine?
For the life of me, I can't understand why people are so desperate to cling to this Quixotic myth, one well-documented to be nonsense, for the sake of "protecting an ancient tradition" that's not even as old as revolvers or lightbulbs.
Kano’s first belt system was white belts for students and black belts for instructors. There was no intermediate rank. Dan and kyu grades came later.
@@RamseyDewey Very true. I'll admit I got the specific details jumbled, but I definitely remember that a lot of the ideas out there are based on old wives' tales made to milk more money from western students in the 50's and 60's.
@@RamseyDewey "Legend" has it that Kano got the idea from swimming instructors who tied black bands around the arm of people they knew could swim and white around those who were beginners. Quoting from the belt section of my site:
"The awarding of coloured and black belts is not an ancient tradition, and its adoption arose from Kano needing a way to differentiate between his beginner (White Belt), intermediate (Brown Belt) and advanced (Black Belt) students. The first two people promoted to 1st Dan Black Belt had one year of training in Judo.
Later in 1926 one of Kano’s students in England, 小泉 軍治 Master Gunji Koizumi, would expand upon the system and include the multitude of colours which we are accustomed to today.
1883: White, Brown & Black Belts for rank originate in Judo
1922: Shotokan Karate borrows Judo’s belt and rank system
1926: Extra coloured belts are added to Judo
192x: Shotokan also adds extra coloured belts
194x: Korean martial arts schools perpetuate the belt and rank system"
www.nbtkda.com/belts
@@RamseyDewey Fair enough, looks like I got my history slightly mixed up.
I definitely remember that the modern ideas about time length were largely derived from GIs in western countries trying to get their students to stay longer so they could milk more money from them.
I was always told by my judo instructor that being a black belt meant that you had attained competency in all stanard, and advanced judo techniques. That's it. I have always told my guitar students something similar about attaining Grade 8 in an instrument.
When I got my judo black belt I certainly didn't feel like a master, I went to the same judo school as Tom and Pete Cousins, who were among the best judokas the UK has ever produced and they had been beating my ass since I was 6, so I was under no illusions about what that belt meant in real terms, lol
Bodidharma was also said to have originally been denied entry to the Shaolin Temple for 9 years, during which he lived in a cave and meditated outdoors, ultimately cracking away the rock in a cliff with his incredible power of the mind, which so impressed the Venerable Abbot that he finally granted him entry into the temple complex.
So this is as historically accurate as Xīyóu Jì (Journey to the West).
So was there a talking monkey?
I've been thinking about this story lately, so it's the perfect time for this video to come up, thanks coach!
The foundation of kung fu came from India
From an Indian martial art called Kalaripayuttua
Bodidharama taught them kalari as well as yogic breathing practices
These practices were later turned to Chi Gong
These arts were later defined and combined with other skills from many visitors and slowly turned in to KUNG FU
Also kalaripayattu is over 3,000 years old!!!
Which is double the age of shaloin Kungfu
His research was wrong .. please take 5 seconds too look up how old it is
@@asecond_1 the foundation of kung fu DID NOT come from India. Kung fu is not based on Kalaripayattu. Indians are masters of claiming stealing other people's art and culture.
@@asecond_1 there is no evidence Kalaripayattu is 3000 years old and there is many evidence shows shaolin kung fu is much older than Kalaripayattu
@@TingTong2568literally take 5 seconds to search up how old Kalari is
And then search up how old shaloin kung fu is
It's hard to argue that shuai jiao is as old as many seem to believe. The modern jacket wrestling commonly called shuai jiao is mostly Manchu/Mongol bohk inspired, meanwhile historical shuai jiao (in its earliest form) was done by ethnic Han who would wear horned head gear and headbutt each other (and there was no jacket). Shuai jiao doesn't have an unbroken lineage, and bears nearly zero resemblance to its origin. The concept of wrestling has advancement been around in China for thousands of years, but the same could be said for other civilizations because wrestling tends to be a default in terms of folk combat sports. Mu Shin Martial Culture has made an amazing video essay on the history and clarification of shuai jiao.
But I definitely agree that the claim that kung fu wouldn't have existed without India is bollocks. That's assuming that sub cultures cannot develop something on their own without the influence of some other culture.
Ancient Greek art of Pankration is immortalized on pottery and some Egyptian wall paintings. These examples are dated back as for as at least 900 BC. Thus Pankration is about 3000 years old. Probably older because it was wide spread enough to paint and put on pottery
The Chinese didn't need wall paintings. Combat strategies were well documented by the Yellow Emperor in 2700BC. That's nearly 5000 years ago.
I have to partially disagree. I trained in contemporary wushu and traditional kung fu a couple decades, and I've noticed quite a few similarities between Shaolin Quan and Indian arts such as Kalaripayuttu. They both employ similar stances and kicks, and they even slap their feet while kicking in a way I thought was a unique quirk of Shaolin styles. They both have forms that include a degree of acrobatics and require a high degree of flexibility. Contrast this with say historical European arts, which were largely devoid of forms as we commonly understand the term and lack the acrobatics and kicks commonly found in East and SE Asian styles. Yes, Kalari doesn't go back more than 800 years, but extant Indian martial arts evolved from older martial arts systems that were contemporary with Bodhidharma.
The evidence isn't particularly strong, but I think it's at least *plausible* that some of India's martial arts may have been imported along with Buddhism, and extant Indian martial arts may share a distant common ancestor with old styles of Shaolin quan. That being said, people take this to far and make the absurd claim that India *invented* martial arts. As you explain, China, like every other nation that waged war, had indigenous fighting methods. Europe has had wrestling, submission wrestling and/or forms of pugilisism for thousands of years. The same is true of Africa, the Americas, the Pacific Islands... Martial arts are not a unique Asian invention!
I will cite my information from Meir Shahar who has a PhD in Asian languages and civilizations at Harvard University.
He wrote a book called "The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion and the Chinese Martial Arts".
The historical records all converge to the notion that much of today's bare-handed Chinese martial arts originated around the Ming-Qing transitioning period.
Prior to that, Shaolin was not famous for bare-handed martial arts. They were famous for the staff method. The military general, Qi Jiguang, wrote that he thought bare-handed martial arts wasn't too useful on the battlefield but was good for building up athleticism. Back then, weapons were what's useful on the battlefield.
There is a manual called "Exposition of the Original Shaolin Staff Method" from 1610 written by Cheng Zongyou. There was a Q&A portion in it where a question was raised: “As to the staff, the Shaolin [method] is admired. Today there are many Shaolin monks who practice hand combat (quan), and do not practice staff. Why is that?"
Cheng Zhongyou's answer: "...hand combat is not yet popular in the land (quan you wei shengxing hainei). Those [Shaolin monks] who specialize in it, do so in order to transform it, like the staff, [into a vehicle] for reaching the other shore [of enlightenment].”
It was so unusual that there's even a question about why Shaolin decided to practice Quan. It admits that bare-handed combat wasn't popular in the land.
Therefore, to the degree that Indian martial arts has influenced Chinese martial arts seems negligible.
@@ShadowParalyzer Those quotes imply the contrary, at least when it comes to South Asian influence more broadly. Buddhism has a long history of being associated with martial arts, especially unarmed arts like Muay Boran in Thailand. There is also a Hindu or Sikh component to South Asian martial arts, which include unarmed fighting methods and acrobatic forms of yoga. This may explain why unarmed fighting was practiced at Shaolin when it was otherwise unpopular among Chinese soldiers. Therefore I still think it's at least plausible that there was some influence. After all, Buddhism itself originated in India and was spread by missionaries into neighboring nations.
That being said, I agree that the influence on the actual techniques is often greatly overstated if it existed at all. Punching, kicking, wrestling and submissions were nearly universal throughout history, and it only seems otherwise because in the west many native martial arts were turned into more abstract sports, e.g. pugilism into boxing, catch wrestling into freestyle wrestling, Parisian street fighting into modern savate. One can even find strikes, joint locks, chokes and throws in Medieval European fight manuals that look like jujutsu!
The acrobatics is from modern Shaolin, which was wushu-fied for the tourists. Historical Shaolin martial arts are not acrobatic.
I am ashamed that people are fighting over where it originated instead of learning its importance in life and start practicing it. People should stop giving importance to videos spreading negativity instead look for videos that teach technique and positivity about other cultures and beliefs
I'm an Indian & I've never heard or read it came from India, that's just a hilarious claim
They just want credit for everything
@@nikhilkujur9744 our ancient ancestors invented everything that has ever existed. But the British and Mughals stole it 😪
@@tuneboyz5634 they also invented the caste system and sati
No everyone knows it was Thor the Thunder God
Far better things come from India mate...chicken madras, Naan breads and chicken tikka for example 😋
Pretty sure there’s substantial doubt that Bodhidharma was a real historical person anyway.
The foundation of kung fu came from India
From an Indian martial art called Kalaripayuttua
Bodidharama was a prince from south India who taught them kalari as well as yogic breathing practices
These practices were later turned to Chi Gong
These arts were later defined and combined with other skills from many visitors and slowly turned in to KUNG FU
Well theres old pictures/paintings of him
@@asecond_1 the foundation of kung fu DID NOT came from India. Kung fu IS NOT based on Kalaripayattu. Indians are the masters of claiming and stealing other people's art and legacy
@@hagenanon9484and for some I guess that may constitute proof. I’ve seen pictures of Santa too. So by that logic…..
@@asecond_1 I wasn’t there. So I don’t know.
The exercices Bodidharma taught to the Shaolin Monks, in order to relieve back pain from long sesions of seated meditation, are amazing! They are known as the 8 Pieces of Brocado. Used to be more but, unfortunately, some got lost in time! 😔
While I agree with your statement that Chinese martial arts do not originate from India, Kalaripayattu is estimated to be about 3000 years old.
Namely because of ancient Hindu scriptures, which mention Kalaripayattu and estimates from people whom are recognized as reputable historians on the subject, whom place its origins between 200 BCE and 600 CE. Although it's peak popularity was between the 14th and 15th centuries.
The way i heard the story from a shaolin monk is not that bodhidharma brought the martial arts. It was Hui Ke, a former Military officer who accompanied bodhidharma bcs he wanted to learn from him who brought the martial arts to the shaolin temple. Bodhidharma saw the monks would be in a bad physical state and had to implement some movements, and the temple was regularly attacked so Huike trained them in combat. Later on the Temple even invited different fighters to improve the style together. Huike is also the reason why shaolin monks greet with only one hand. Also: kalaripayattus swordwhip style does indeed look very similar to shaolin dao and shield style.
My from study I think Da Mo (Bodidharma) likely brought muscle tendon changing / bone marrow washing to Shaolin, or he used his knowledge from India to create tendon changing / bone marrow washing qi gong, a very important aspect which was introduced to Chinese martial arts. Unsure how likely it is that Da Mo brought more than health arts in the form of Yoga/Qi Gong. As I understand there were already many family style martial arts in China when Da Mo arrived, but the Qi Gong/Yoga practice that Da Mo shared led to some pretty epic martial contributions.
Yes! There are manuscripts regarding bone/tendon washing that is still practiced in Shaolin. And this yogic practice would be more than likely introduced to Shaolin by a peaceful Indian Buddhist monk than any martial system.
totally useless forms of pseudo science irrelevant to modern martial arts
The foundation of kung fu came from India
From an Indian martial art called Kalaripayuttua
Bodidharama taught them kalari as well as yogic breathing practices
These practices were later turned to Chi Gong
These arts were later defined and combined with other skills from many visitors and slowly turned in to KUNG FU
@@asecond_1 If kalari is a MA system, why are there no resemblance of it in the current MA's world? Evidence such as manuscripts on tendon & marrow cleansing is proof that only yogic exercises were taught & not chi gung which was already practised in Taoism before Bodhidarma was born.
@@MustAfaalikTHERE IS SO MUCH SIMILARITY
This dude has no idea what he is talking about
I watched a video 3 days ago of a kung fu master and kalari master doing a form together!!
And it WAS ALMOST IDENTICAL
Just a small consideration here: history and prehistory are technically distinguished by written notes. History starts with the first written information. Everything we got before any writing system was invented is called prehistory. Cave painting are not written notes so they are prehistory. Would be awesome, though, to find a cave painting of poeple killing a deer with a Kamehameha
Kind of like how some people say the Proto Indoeuropeans came from India.
The foundation of kung fu came from India
From an Indian martial art called Kalaripayuttua
Bodidharama taught them kalari as well as yogic breathing practices
These practices were later turned to Chi Gong
These arts were later defined and combined with other skills from many visitors and slowly turned in to KUNG FU
Also kalaripayattu is over 3,000 years old!!!
Which is double the age of shaloin Kungfu
His research was wrong .. please take 5 seconds too look up how old it is
They originated from Persia, but most did migrate to India, hence the name.
@@thrwwyaccnt123 The pontic steppe is the best current theory
Sorry it did not
This boddidharma claim is not about the physical movement set, is about the Kundalini the internal esoteric magic tradition, the Qui, the energy beam , like kame hame hame that anyone can do , but there is tons of legends and myths about this thing, I think this is more something esoteric, like the Masons , or the kabbalist on occident , batman was trained by a ninja ras al ghul from the Sufi Muslim tradition, this is the thing .... I don't mean is real , what I mean is that is not a lit the movements is about the esoteric the Kundalini the dragon
Dude they can’t even fathom to believe about yoga , kalari the fck they’ll understand about Kundalini its out of their leagues entirely & the mention of Kabbalah & Qlippoth is beyond their comprehension. I’m aware of everything that you mentioned as I’m on the Left Hand Path being an Indian I clearly understood what you implied
This is an unfair comparison. The whole story is so much more complicated than that. India is not even known for recording many things that India. Hence we see many events in the history of India as being borderline myths because sages didn’t record as much in text in comparison to oral. Oral traditions eventually break off chain and become forgotten eventually. We may not know today but tomorrow we may find out that India had something to do influence wise with Chinese martial arts etc. again it’s much more complicated than what it seems
One again, even if Shaolin martial arts are 100% Indian in origin, that doesn’t account for the hundreds of other Chinese martial arts that developed independently and prior to Shaolin martial arts.
@@RamseyDewey Agreed Sir. I may not know as much about the history of China but understandably China had many golden eras of cultural advancements (Zhao and Han dynasty) that encompass and include martial arts advancements as well before any Indian or Buddhist influence from the relative west (Indian subcontinent in this case). This is true. However Indian influence is on a spectrum. The current evidence now does not say all and there are inconsistencies no different than that of the life the Buddha and his disciples who were also from India. But it is not a dichotomy. Its not just yes or no. It's a complicated story uptill now. I believe Bodhidharma may have been a real person yet how he lived his life? Not even Im sure. but heck there's always a grain of truth here and there for every myth out there. Which is why myths are still around even after thousands of years.
I mean Silambam is the basis of SOME kung fu. Some.
It's not ALL chinese martial arts, that's nuts.
What's the evidence for it?
Thank you for this insight. I have heard about that too, but never spent too much thought about it.
Probably kung fu (as a concept) developed as the people of China applied the Buddhist teachings to the folk arts which they were already practicing...since Bodhidharma is revered as a sage in both countries, it would make sense for people to attribute kung fu to Bodhidharma, even though it might not be strictly accurate history...
Thank you for highlighting prehistoric martial arts and giving them their rightful place
Ramsey the art of kalaripayattu is actually 3000 years old. Because of that it could have been the precursor to Shaolin Kung Fu.
ruclips.net/user/shortsIklX4yL8COk?si=1KOA0Na7lEh94ohh
^^ yup the forms are the same
He was incorrect in both his dates and his research
He was talking about Bodhidharma. That is where the claim about Indian influence came from. You have to show that there was sufficient cultural exchanged before Bodhidharma to make your claim.
If anything, early Shaolin received some form of Yoga, which is perhaps still practiced in evolved variations, such as the single fingered handstand or the double fingers pointing to the temple side elbow plank. But martial arts? Nah, that probably entered the temple via retired/exiled/refugee Chinese military personnel.
Yoga is a modern invention.
@@RamseyDewey well, yogic practices, or Whatever the term you wish to use to describe pre-yoga.
@@RamseyDeweyyou are talking about the modern formation of Yoga, however the practices were derived from methods of older traditions.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga
@@RamseyDeweya load of crock, that statement is.
@@RamseyDewey ok that's 100% false yoga has been around for thousands of years. Unless you're talking about the modern form of yoga
Yea, I read something like that as well, and I don't know enough to refute you. However I don't think people argued that people from India invented Chinese martial arts, but they set the foundation for Shaolin King Fu. I highly doubt that India had no influence on Chinese martial arts. Maybe they're referring to more of the breathing and meditation exercises, and they combined that with martial arts. I think the accurate explanation is that there is a significant influence on Chinese martial arts from India, NOT that Indians invented Chinese martial arts.
This is a much more sensible conjecture. Existing folk - practices of China + mediation methods from Buddhist tradition = kung fu 😊
Great insight. Being an Indian, I would like to state what I think. I also think that there must be atleast some kind of similarity between the techniques. Tbh, we have some similarities. I would like to mention whatever I have observed.
1. Silambam is a staff based martial art (as far as I know). Staff being a common weapon, there are some movements common between silambam and weapon based kung fu.
2. I have seen videos of Kalaripayattu practitioners doing crescent kicks and 360 crescent kicks (but never seen them spar though). Crescent kick can be found in kung fu too.
3. There are some stances/exercises derived from yoga in both kalaripayattu and kung fu.
4. Theres another weapon based martial arts originated among sikh community (Gatka). It also has staff and swords as weapons (but that clearly is comparitively newer to kung fu).
What I believe there are just a few elements common in indian martial arts and kung fu. This might be purely coincidental but yes, cant rule out the possibility of Bodhidharma contributing to kung fu in some way or the other. And yes, giving credit for origin of kung fu to bodhidharma alone would be a big inaccuracy. Since shaolin kung fu has evolved alot.
Anyway, great video coach.
Yeah, as I read from some of the other comments, I too gathered from the myth that Bodhidharma simply made Shaolin martial arts really strong because the monks added his chi kung technique which made their bodies super strong and gave extreme power to their attacks (note I grew up with the Yang Jwing-ming books and it is hard to tell where or when I first thought that).
I'm so glad you brought this up. Because I have implied it in one if my loooong rants, that there are core parts of what we think of as king fubthat came from India.
But kung fu did NOT come from India. The only parts that can be said to MAYBE have come from idea are breathing techniques which became qigong.
But even that, mixed with so much existing Chinese medicine and other techniques that you can't say that it is 100% from India.
And China is big. I mean, like really big. Even if you could say it came from idea, that would inly be true for southern stiyes of Chinese martial arts.
What about all of the influence from Russia? Mongolia? This myth is asinine.
But there is a kernel of truth to information passing from one culture to another. A kernel. That's it.
Also, these people think that this one guy was the first time China interacted with India? They existed right next to each other forever. Even with the mountains between them there was a tiny bit of trade going on. Maybe not arge mercantile trade, or even cultural trade, nut trade nonetheless less.
Ramsey, look at Indian breathing techniques. Compare them ton real qigong. Then make a decision.
The earth, fire, water, air breathing learned came from India. I learned 5 "forms" the last one teaches you to switch between those types if breathing while fighting.)
*U R nothing know about Yoga! Actually, Yoga is far from a modern invention. The origins of yoga can be traced back to over 5,000 years in ancient India. 🇮🇳*
*The earliest mentions of yogic practices appear in the "Rigveda" and later texts such as the "Upanishads". Additionally, the "Yoga Sutras of Patanjali", which were compiled around the "2nd century BCE", serve as a foundational text of traditional yoga practices.*
ruclips.net/user/shortsIklX4yL8COk?si=SBN11hwzI-jRPL0P
Kungfu definitely did come from kalari
His research was wrong
Kalari is 3,000 years old
Shaloin Kungfu is 1,500 years old
"Trace it to prehistory"
Wouldn't that make it history?
Well no. History being a permanent, transcribed record of events, as related in this video. Events preceding history were not formally recorded. Ergot prehistory.
@@jamesdspaderf2883 so yes?
Havent watched the video yet but I LOVE YOU FOR THIS AHAHAHHAHA
Well said Coach! Thanks for putting it out there and debunking these ridiculous claims!
Thanks for another great video, Coach. For what it’s worth, there are two good books written by professional historians that should put this claim to rest: Chinese Martial Arts by Peter Lorge, and The Shaolin Monastery by Meir Shahar.
It's far more plausible that different martial arts and fighting styles emerged independently across different human cultures, many of them converging towards some common techniques and principles.
And it's all right Ramsey. It's a very typically Indian thing to claim that everything originated in India. You'll not change the minds of people who insist this
The Shaolin temple is like a university but it's professors were former soldiers that passed down their fighting arts. China has had martial arts since the Zhou dynasty from 1046bce. Therefore the Shaolin temple did not create anything new, there more like wushu-mma creators.
That's because of street fighter V2 boddidharma
Hi Ramsey, first and foremost, thanks for the consistent martial arts content you've been putting out thus far. It helps that there are practicing martial artist who delve into concepts and experiment as opposed to armchair-bound keyboard warriors. Now, addressing the content in this video, I believe it could use a little attenuation. Let's tackle 3 specific areas, if you'd be open to the notion:
Knowledge and exposure to south indian martial arts:
As you mentioned in the video, your knowledge of indian martial arts is limited. Furthermore, the first examples quoted not only for India but on the martial practices of other cultures seem limited to wrestling. As you know, wrestling is the most ancient form of martial arts, pre-historic even, as it is the first application of force that comes innately to all creatures... not just humans. However, there are multiple technical systems of south Indian martial arts mentioned in records of it as practiced martial skills. Two such martial art commonly practiced in south India was Adimurai and Silambam, Tamil warfare arts that was predominant with records dating back to 400 BCE.
It's traceability through body mechanics and similarity of forms:
Many branches of adimurai share similarities. This similarity was passed on to south-east Asia and can be found in their martial art forms such as Pencak silat, silat, and some empty hand/stick-based Filipino martial arts as well, from Indian, specifically south indian interactions with south east Asia from 1st CE, when the kingdom of funan (now Cambodia) was established due to the marriage between a brahmin merchant turned monk and a naga chieftain's daughter. The Nagas were a race that existed well in the Vedic age (1500 BC and 600 BC) and is prominently featured as warriors and teachers in the great Indian epic, the Mahabharatha. The forms of these martial arts, when traced, would lead back to it's closest descendant adimurai, which was the precursor to most south Indian martial arts. Several traits such as the L stance or back stance, the lowering of the body to mid-height, and the mechanics of the transfer of power through open hand strikes in a swinging motion, coupled with basic kicks share are evident in asian martial arts.
The timeline of existence:
So, what does this mean?
We know that Bodhidharma was originally a pallava prince in south India and a prince. The Pallavas ruled from 275CE to 875CE.
Bodhidharma arrived in China in 527. Assuming he was 27 when arrived in china, this would peg his birth around 500 CE. Meaning, that the martial arts he was exposed to and excelled in, though was recorded in 400 BCE, was practiced way before, through a system known as Guru-Shishya Parambarai. Meaning, that the lessons of the art were transmitted through the teacher (Guru) to their students (Shishya) in a codified oral and visual practice that became a tradition (Parambarai). This concept is not new to martial arts, it's similar to the concept of "Lineage of martial art" utilized in Chinese martial arts.
My take on this:
Bodhidharma may not transplanted the Indian martial arts wholesale and called it kungfu. Instead, given that he was adept in the ways of martial arts, he would've recognized similarities between the pre-existing techniques of the land he arrived in (China) and incorporated his knowledge of Adimurai and Silambam into these arts to codify them, similar to the guru-shishya parambarai he was exposed to. Since he was also knowledgable, recording that knowledge to overcome the limitation of the oral-visual tradition he was exposed to, would've been an optimal route taken to prevent the loss of this knowledge.
You are right but these so called expert wont understand becuse they dont research about indian tamil culture
@@Muniswarannn Thanks for reading through the comment and responding to it. I don't expect them to, and why should they? As scions of the race and culture we descend from, it is our duty to seek, understand and dispel ignorance: "Tamaso ma Jotir Gamaya", from the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, literally translates into English " From the Darkness (of Ignorance), make me go (i.e. Lead me) towards the Light (of Knowledge)". I've merely provided information that already exists and have provided inferences from my observation of existing data. If anything, we should delve deeper and further re-discover what we've lost and preserve what we're losing, before adapting it to the world we live in.
@@Buildkraftgaming good explanation
@@Muniswarannn Nandri Thozhra
@@Buildkraftgaming nandri sagothara ivargaluku ondrum puriyaathu sagothara
Thank you for this, Ramsey. However, there is one correction. Kalaripayattu didn't develop in the 12th century. There are mentions of it in the Sangam literature, and they were compiled between 3rd Century BCE and 3rd Century CE.
Another great video as always, thanks coach!
This is the first time I hear that Shaolin kung fu was based on a pre existing Indian martial art. I've read a different story. When Bodhidharma came to the Shaolin temple, he found the monks lacking focus for deep meditation exercises. In order to strengthen their mind, he thought to strengthen their bodies first. He came up with some tao lu as a forms to excerise the body. Similar to Yoga. Gym class if you will. The story doesn't say anything about him teaching the monks a pre existing Indian martial arts or that the forms he taught them were even intended to be fighting forms. But the story says that those physical excerise forms later evolved into a martial art due to circumstances. Shaolin was being frequently attacked. So the monks worked with what they knew and made the gym class into a martial art. Based on that, it's safe to assume Bodhidharma made those forms up from his head.
Ancient China is older than Ancient Greece. Of course there were many Chinese martial arts waaaay before the Shaolin style that was used in many armies in China. I would guess the Shaolin even combined pre existing Chinese military fighting styles with the Bodhidharma physical exercises to create a distinct stylised fighting discipline.
Very interesting video here. Amongst Karate practioners, just like Kabudo weapons myth, many believe and have been taught for a very long time that the Bodhidarma myth is in fact history. However from a historian's perspective (not me, but what historians have commented on) there is more historical accuracy with King Arthur mythology than there is with the Bodhidarma myth. Real masters have been taught this myth as fact, so it is still very common for modern dojos to teach this myth as fact. Pop culture like Fatal Fury and Street Fighter, if I recall correctly also tap into this myth. By the way, Kubodo weapons were never regular farm implements that secretly were weapons in disguise. Historians, authors, and teachers have all had a hand in spreading the lies. Somtimes by ignorance, others for recognition, greed, or some other selfish motive. Good video.
My name is Scots/Irish - Tyler Jackson Auld. People don't think about names enough.
Tyler - a roof tiler, usually, tile floors weren't popular until fairly recently. Jackson - son of Jack (I'm not haha). Auld - literally old. My family is unusually long lived. My two great grandmothers lived to be 97.
3:22 is it kusthi?. Its indian mud wrestling, which has its roots tracing back to old persia i think. Its still a living thriving tradition here.
Meir Shahar, “The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion, and the Chinese Martial Arts”
Thank you. In pinyin is Zheng Manqing and the fact that you don't know him, I believe answers my question. Modern Tai Chi is in great part his responsibility, he popularized the form of Yang Cheng Fu, making it shorter (37 movement Yang Short Form), he escaped to Taiwan when the communists took power, later in mainland China was created the 24 movements form, imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. He was one of the very first to bring Tai Chi specially, and to a point Chinese painting medicine and culture to the West. Cheers
You can just say "Kalari". People understand what you are referring to.
Seemingly every culture developed some sort of unarmed fighting art. In that human beings typically have 2 arms and 2 legs, and the same joints and points of vulnerability, it should be no surprise that these cultures' arts have a lot of similarities. Parallel truths, so to speak.
Hello Mr Dewey, hope you're doing well, thanks for all your valuable content. Please someday make a video about how to prevent or reduce the damage from being slammed.
Indians love to conflate this story about zen martial arts originating in India. Bodhidharma brought Buddhism to China, not martial arts.
THAT IS NOT TRUE
There were two other Indian monks who came 500 years before bodidharma who brought Buddhism to China
The foundation of kung fu came from India
From an Indian martial art called Kalaripayuttua
Bodidharama taught them kalari as well as yogic breathing practices
These practices were later turned to Chi Gong
These arts were later defined and combined with other skills from many visitors and slowly turned in to KUNG FU
@@asecond_1 the foundation of kung fu DID NOT come from India. Kung fu is not based on Kalaripayattu. Indians are the masters of claiming and stealing other people's art and legacy
@@asecond_1 No, it didn't. There is no documented record of Bodhidharma ever teaching the Chinese any martial arts. Even in this video, Ramsay talks about multiple martial arts styles in China long pre-dated Bodhidharm's visit to China. I guess you didn't watch the whole thing. Plus, there are no similar moves. Kung Fu existed several centuries before Bodhidharma visited there.
@@asecond_1 What were their names and what were the years?
From the kung fu side of the story it was strangers that brought martial arts in from roughly the direction of India and was developed in China around animal movements only to have these animal movements removed in Korea and Japan.
How I understand it is Bodi Dharma taught his Chinese disciples yoga. They then used it as a strengthening base exercise for their fighting style which became Shaolin Kung Fu. Hence no similarity to Kaalyrupa.
ruclips.net/user/shortsIklX4yL8COk?si=1KOA0Na7lEh94ohh
Your wrong
Kalari is 3,000 years old
Not 800 years old
This guys research was incorrect 🤣
Watch who you listen too
@@asecond_1 The age of Kalari does not change my suspicion that it wasn't taught the Shaolin monks. They both have some similarities in a few of the stances, but I think that's more related to the similar yogic root. Other than that, there isn't much in common.
Your understand was faults :v , give me an history source that proof your "understand"
I understood it to be that the arrival of Buddhism in China included the importation of meditation exercises, including the observation of nature and that Buddhist practice of observing nature led to the development of animal forms in the Shaolin Temple. Thats not the same as saying that the forms themselves being imported from Indian Buddhism.
This interpretation does match history. Buddhism arrived in China from India (carried by many monks and merchants, not just one mythical one) during the Han dynasty (202 BC to 220 AD). This is about the same time that we see the development of the "Five Animal Play" in qigong exercises. You don't see Five Animal Kung Fu as we know it for about another thousand years (the 13th century AD) and its generally known to have evolved from Luohanquan (also called 18 Hands of Luohan...Luohan meaning "protector of the Buddha"" as my first Longfist teacher told me, not sure if that's correct), which itself originated around 600 AD. How the animal aspects got mixed in with 18 Hands is a mystery (if it happened that way at all).
So...there's probably some level of truth in the connection between the Animal Forms and Buddhist meditative practices from India, but its much less direct than "Bodidharma taught them."
The first time I learned about this myth, I read it on a Snapple bottle cap fact. The way they phrased it was “karate comes from India.” I guess if the story had any truth to it, that would kind of make sense. Alas, it does not
I love Ramsey Dewey QnAs...came to learn about martial arts, learned about society and material science as well
Edit: I should add I used to believe in the Bodhidharma story until watching this video
Also, this talk about India is hilarious. Indians don't realise that India only started existing after 1947. Before that, it was an entire region of small kingdoms but never a country called India. So anything that happened in that region cannot be called indian. It could be Nepalese, Sri Lankan, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, bhutanese or even belonging to a certain region in the south Asian subcontinent.
The concept of 'Bharatvarsh' was bigger then but the idea of the nation bharat was given in Vishnupuran.
Yoga means “skill in action”, and you yourself said Kung-foo means “great skill”. Bodhidharma emphasised on the Dhyana aspect of Yoga while preaching in ancient China, which became Chan Buddhism, and later Zen Buddhism in Japan.
Much appreciated information.Your gong-fu has made this exploration of a myth possible.
I’ve heard that it was customary for the Emperor to grant leniency for criminals who were willing to commit to monastic life, and so the Shaolin became a hub for not only monks, but criminals, terrorists, militants, insurgents, retired soldiers, Taoist cultivators, etc. This is actually why it developed into such a rich martial tradition, it wasn’t even developed by the monks themselves but rather the rifraff they absorbed, cross training with and learning from each other.
Hallo Coach,
Love your content. Love your non nonsense approaches to martial arts.
My main Question: had you ones had an shoulder injury, and how / what did you durring your rehabilitation.
- I shattered my collarbone/clavicula bone around six weeks ago, due to my injury i worried to break it again if i would be takendown or if someone place his weiht on to me (i'm training BJJ). Do you think it would be an good ide to during i'm take time off from BJJ, would it be an good ide to train in striking (Savate, Kickboxing ect)? (i know you not an doctor, but would like your opinion anyway)
PS: Really like your videos and sorry for my Shitty english (i'm not an native english speaker).
Tan tui has been said to be among the oldest and they say it originated in Shandong Province
There's a lot of 'ancient' Indian martial arts that have forms that can be traced directly to Bruce Lee & Jackie Chan movies......
This is good. The shaolin cultures lifestyles were changed by buddhist practices wich gives it that specific character that can be tested to Bodhidarma. However, its safe to say the forms were already in place in the old confucian ways hence the "iron cloak" mentality that it is not a pleasantry but like meat, alcohol and fighting wich was/is frowned at by Bhuddists Thanks.
Having done some research on Chinese Martials reliable historical sources point that almost all martial arts including Chang Quan, Tai Chi Quan, Bagua Zhang, Xing Yi, Baji were created by soldiers or warriors not by monks or immortals in temples. And most of the weapons were the main point and empty hand was in the background.
>"the most difficult technology for humans to master is to record, preserve and transmit information over long periods of time"
That's an extremely good, we forget that recently we have access to so much information that we don't appreciate the ability to have a whole library in the palm of your hand.
A true privilege that no other civilization had in all of human history. Great video btw.
There was Te, which was China Hand, before the 36 families. Then there was the 36 families, ambassadors from the Ming Dynasty. Then 500 years later, there was Southern Calling White Crane, which became Goju Ryu. And 100 years later, Uechi Ryu, supposedly Southern White Crane. These are the major Karate roots. However, there were minor influences from other Okinawans traveling to China, especially to learn Buddhism, or for 101 other reasons.
It is disputed that Bodidharma was even from India, he was broadly from an area called the western regions, he could have been Persian, Central Asian, or from the land of the Indus (note I say land of the Indus because India only incorporates part of the Indus, when I mean Indus, I mean the land from North west Pakistan all the way down to South India).
Modern Indians argue that India used to get a lot bigger. Technically the Gautama Buddha was born in Nepal for example
Nepal has always been part of the indian civilization still is@@DesCoutinho
@@arnavpandey5386 did I. Not saying that this chap is going with modern borders others go broader
No, this is nationalistic reductionism. The India back then was not “India” as a nation, it was split into various empires and domains. The area encompassing India and Pakistan was part of the British empire longer than Pakistan and India have existed.
@@AK-hf3pf they have the power for now good luck reasoning with them on social media then
In Sardegna we have prehistoric statuettes of wrestlers, so there are prehistoric testimonies of martial arts...
3 laws of physics. Kung Fu lives in everything we do. Different styles have different origins, but a lot of them work the exact same way. At their core, all of them operate using the 3 laws of physics to do the same things. This is why they teach soldiers to march, and boxers to jog with their feet straight in the same direction as their eyes. Just like in running, if your feet are straighter, your impact, speed and balance become fucked up levels of good. That's how wing chun works, and boxing. The position of your feet affects a lot. Do not point your feet in an outward triangle, like a v. Point them either straight, or slightly inward for kicking balance. Keeps you from falling, and makes your kicks fast and hard. The wing chun triangle footwork. You point your big toes together, and make your feet form a triangle before kicks. Too fast to see. You keep your eyes on the conjunction of their clavicle, like in fencing, or a sword or knife fight. Gives you view of everything at once, and is the easiest way to tell what's coming. They can't trick you. Wing chun knife fighting is great. The centerline principal is part of the basics of wing chun. Not answering any replies or reading them. I respect India's history, but I got into Kung Fu, and it changed my whole life for the better. Trying to practice Shaolin Buddhism. Regardless of history, this stuff saved my life, and kept me safe more times than I can count. I'm not perfect. I have a lot to learn. Even skilled masters need to have a firm understanding of Kung Fu, whichever style, at it's core. A boxer, a knight, or a gunslinger. Look up southpaw and Orthodox stance. It's in boxing. Wing chun works like that, just with more kicks, different strikes blocks, and grabbing. The same strikes as in boxing, plus more. If you like boxing, wing chun would be perfect for you. Especially if you like infighting boxing. Wing chun Kung Fu is known as the science of infighting. The best martial art for boxers to learn for self defense, without gloves on. More possibilities. Knife fighting, and learning how to fight with anything, even a rock. I love boxing. Have a lot of respect for it. Not to shit on boxing, at all. Martial arts, teaches you differently than boxing, for a much different purpose. I've been in some bad situations where I couldn't run. Kung Fu is a great option in places like Canada, where I live, for legal self defense. Or illegal self defense. With a knife. Since it's Canada, and the self defense laws are ass. Even if you don't use a knife, it works the same way barehanded. The zoro theme has now started playing. I can hear it for some reason. Just kidding. I'm a complete asshole, I know, but hopefully this info can help someone. If it gets you into martial arts, it makes me happy. The skeleton, and form, is what lets you shift your weight, either fast, or hard. That's how Orthodox (right handed stance), and Southpaw (left handed stance) both work. You lock it in with your hip, step into it with your back foot whether it's with your fast hand, or the strong one. This makes the front hand faster, and the one in the back way stronger. That's why fighters hold their arms like that, and make the hands meet in the middle for blocking. Every boxer was either right handed, left handed or both. The way you train yourself to be ambidextrous with both fists and legs is by jump rope, marching, jogging, or running. It's about rhythm and footing. Jump rope and jogging, are boxing classics for that reason. Do your roadwork. Keep your feet straight, pointed in the same direction as your eyes. Keeps you faster, makes it so you don't hurt your ankles or knees, makes it possible to dodge, and makes you harder to knock down from any direction. Balance is important. Very. The best boxers were switch hitters, like Jack Dempsey. This is how to train it. I always fought like that instinctively without knowing what it is. I do infighting, and switch hit, just on instinct, which is why I got so into wing chun. I'm comfortable with it. It's saved my ass before. I got attacked a few times in my life. Not proud of it, or what I did to protect myself, of course. Not reading or answering any comments. I like learning, not arguing with people who can't even jog up or down a set of stairs quickly, with their feet straight, without falling.
For sure Bohdidarma taught the monks prayer teachings and how to defend themselves from animals. Would Bohdidarma and the monks refine and evolve the self defense against animals as Shaolin, or would the monks refine it themselves?
I think martial arts was banned in India so the date of Kalari is unknown, but supposedly they practiced in secret and thats how it was preserved. India has a lot of ancient history so combat training must have existed in some form but this is purely speculative.
Thanks for the interesting video. Of course, kung-fu has zero connection with China’s neighbour to the south! Chinese martial arts predate the Shaolin myth by millennia, a fact well attested by abundant archaeological and textual evidence.
According to Adam Hsu: “Shaolin kung-fu is mostly a fairy tale, and the origins of Shaolin kung-fu is more mythical than real. … At no time was the Shaolin Temple considered a kung-fu school. To assert that kung-fu originated there with Ta Mo (Bodhidharma) is absurd. The Chinese brought kung-fu to the Shaolin Temple and, before that, it had already been practiced throughout China for hundreds of years. … In the evolution of kung-fu, Shaolin kung-fu holds little importance. Shaolin didn’t even develop its own style. What is really ridiculous, though, is to pretend that Shaolin is the birthplace of kung-fu. It is time to stop calling what may be the grandchild the grandfather.” These words are taken from the chapter on Shaolin in The Sword Polisher’s Record, Tuttle Publishing, 1998.
Any kung-fu style claiming a connection with the Shaolin Temple is basically using the purported connection for marketing.
Very interresting, video... Thanks
What if the Indian Buddhist monks brought back Chinese martial arts from their missionary trips to China and what we see is an actual role
Reversal of origins?
It's the same with some Indians claiming they were progenitors of modern Europeans conflating the term Caucasian.
I believe you are thinking of the term “Arian”. Real Caucasians are ethnic group of people from the area surrounding Ural mountains, like the Republic of Georgia.
Real ethnic Arians were from the Punjab peninsula.
@@RamseyDeweyAryan is usually considered a linguistic group. The idea of race was a colonial invention. They were xtian countries and it's wrong to steal. The nazis advanced race theory so they could exterminate scapegoats. But american based religions developed their own theological race theory. Some challenge that from within. But people disagree
How would you in a grappling scenario approach someone who's just backing up shooting but and hips back
I am the Shaolin Kratos. Greek origin joke for you. "This is Sparta". That push kick he used to push the guy into the pit, was actually pretty good. It's like IP Man, if he was wearing sandals, and liked to throw babies off cliffs
I don't have a dog in this fight but I'm wondering if kalaripayattu has a similar training structure in terms of prearranged forms in relation to other traditional martial arts. I also wonder if this type of training is cultural element in that it's not found often in more western arts (boxing, wrestling, fencing etc.)
There is A LOT of Kalaripayattu that is similar or even identical to Chinese martial arts and Asian martial arts in general. But many of these things are not rwally implied to be borrowed from Kalari.
For example, both Kalari and most Kung Fu styles use a lot of Yoga poses in their training and forms, these are used to strenghten their practitioners and make them more flexible. Maybe some Chinese styles DID take this stuff from Yoga, but i'm certain that many of them got them from other exercise disciplines or actually came up with them. There's only so many ways to properly exercise without using additional equipment, which Yoga excels at.
There's more, like most of Kalari actually being weapon work or grappling that looks like striking in the forms. It's the same case for most of Kung Fu!
But the thing is, basically every martial art back then did weapons, and grappling has always been "king" of unarmed combat so of course that the forms and unarmed techniques will be grappling-heavy for most styles of traditional arts! For some examples on this, Wing Chun was actually a weapon art with grappling and little bit of unarmed striking, same with Xing Yi, Same with Taijiquan (Taichi), same with Baguazhang, same with Bajiquan, and same with many animal styles like Crane and Mantis. Many styles are like that, huh? And i believe that even if Shaolin was indeed based on Kalari, it's influence would hardly have such a drastic effect on styles that had next to nothing to do with Shaolin, like the Taoist arts (Xing Yi, Bagua, Taichi). So once again, this is just the natural order of things, weapons are strong, grappling is strong, people will include these into their arts that are supposed to be used for actual fighting or for war...
There are more similarities but they are all like that
I remember seeing a video of a kalaripayatu practitioner, who felt that because i the past there were Chinese settlements in India and Indian settlements in China some ideas and techniques might have been shared. This was probably during the era of the silk road trading between east and west
@@TomMack6466 yeah, lot of stuff must have been shared indeed, that's just how the world works, that's very true for martial arts as well. Now then, i don't agree with saying that all of Kung Fu or all of a certain Kung Fu style comes from india. I haven't found proof of any of that.
Now then, some styles do share a lot with Kalari and maybe borrowed it from there, so one could at least argue that if Kalari didn't exist, that Kung Fu style wouldn't exists either or would be very different
@11:20 I tend to agree here. Shaolin has a very unique signature, both in look and in application.
Well that's pretty obvious. Just not what most people would tell you. They were doing many forms in f martial arts long before he was even born. He simply taught the monks at the Shaolin more about meditation etc to help them train more and harder.
The problem with MA is due to evolution of weapons & armor old forma die off or merge with new. This happens constantly. Sometimes this will cause the old forms to come back. Looking at you Tongbei. Modern body armor bringing back a favorite in the days of ancient heavy armor.
We do have primary evidence that bodhidharman certainly existed and he did contribute to the growth and development of chan buddhism in shaolin temple 15th century texts ie non primary sources also credited DaMo with creation of shaolin style kung fu
kalari rappayat and vharma kalai, both with and without weapons. india has a rich tradition of martial arts
@Ramsey What do you think of Coreeda? It's an Australian Aboriginal wrestling style.
Need a dedicated video on the Indian martial art Kalaripayat
I've heard that what India taught to China wasn't martial arts, but a series of exercises for health along the lines Yoga or Qi Gong.
Qi Gong is well attested to BCE - 1000 years prior to anything Shaolin.
Most Ashtanga yoga postures are modern and european - a handful of sitting postures are 1000 years old and possibly as old as 2000.
But Qigong without doubt is more well documented as being older-Its Taoist medicine and longevity from at least the warring states period
China was/is a large empire and absorbed influences from everywhere, as well as generating its own. Chinese martial arts evolved in China, and just because many styles absorbed influences from elsewhere doesn't mean those influences are the "origin" of that martial art. It's just an influence, one among many, and blended and evolved further.
China was an empire until the cultural revolution. It’s now a representative republic. You could argue that China is a cultural hegemony, which shares some similarities to an empire, but “empire” would still be the wrong word.
Silambam is very shaolin-like. Also Shuajiao came from Mongolian Wrestling so that's really only one example you gave. Having that turn into shaolin would have been a much bigger stretch.
Your last words "Let's stop spreading myths!" were like you winked an eye at me! My new book happens to be called "Myths and blind spots in the fighting arts' world... After the Bible, it's the next good book for you!" (Part #1)
All I can say, is that it's an eye opener, maybe an eye popper sometimes as well... (A riddle.)
Nice video!
Damo taught the monks Yi Jin Jing (qi gong) for their health. There were many martial arts in China well before Damo got there.