[TF2] Just What Even Is A Subclass?
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- I apologize in advance for the terrible Trolldier clips, anyway here's Fart of the Subclass.
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I think the "demoknight is the only subclass" argument makes sense on one major point: it is the only subclass deliberately made by Valve themselves.
Only real difference between Trolldier and Demoknight is that the latter gets MvM unique upgrades
Trolldier was never intended by Valve
Idk I mean valve made a pretty deliberate decision to release the gunslinger, which is a mainstay of any modern battle engie.
huntsman gaming
@@MormonDude *mainstay of the old battle engie
With people like uncledane, I think it's pretty clear that battle engie is a mindset. You don't need the gunslinger to battle engie, it's just a playstyle
To me, "subclasses" are just... evolved callouts/descriptors
Saying 'demonight on flank' is a lot easier then saying 'demoman with shield and sword and boots on flank', and conveys a lot more (very important) information then 'demoman on flank'
'Trolldier tutorial' is a lot easier then 'guide to using rocket jumper and market gardener'
Etc, etc
so basically, a playstyle that warrants the subclass descriptor more or less means a play style that shows up often enough, with enough differences in how you would want to approach fighting them as opposed to another playstyle.
@@azurekurgan4099 Y'know what, that's a really good way to describe it, thanks~!
Yes. Like all words, when it is useful to have a word for something, we come up with one.
It doesn't even really matter if you can clearly define it as long as people have a general idea what you mean.
This is honestly a better definition
By this logic, won't Uncle Dane Wannabe be a subclass?
Not trying to nitpick, just a funny thought I had
Maybe the real subclass is the friends we made along the way
Teamwork, the one true subclass!
Is this some kind of Team Fortress?..
tf2
@@notsobadbones We are Team Fortress (2).
If by "friends", you mean all these men I killed shooting canon balls, then yes
You’re right, gun spy isn’t a subclass
It’s a *_DOMCLASS_*
Ah, a man of culture
porn addicted
It's right in the sense I always dom every Demoknight in the battlefield
"Did he fire six shots or only five? Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself"
I'd love to a subclass😊
I'd just have to fall back on the old pornography definition style of "I couldn't define it for you, but I know it when I see it." If I look at a player and think, "Oh, that's a Fat Scout" or "Pyroshark in the sewers" before I think the words Heavy or Pyro, I know I'm looking at a subclass.
that's missing the point of definition
@@richardlionerheart1945 well there are things that don't really fit neatly into a definition so not really, take the classic example of chairs, there really isn't a definition of chair that would include all chairs and exclude all non chairs but you know it's a chair when you see it
this also is why in my eyes, a pybro isn't really a subclass. it's just a role pyro is already meant to play, just with more dedication. you wouldn't say "pybro guarding the engie nest" you'd just say it was a pyro. you WOULD say "watch the skies, there's a trolldier around"
Thats only because that playstyle has become so popuplar you instantly recognize it. If those playstyles didnt have titles you'd just say "pyro with NA in the sewers" or "heavy without a sandvich" or even just "heavy here". Meanwhile if you fought a demoknight you would see that he looks seriously different than a normal demo and notice how hes trying to melee you instead of using his explosives launchers
@@richardlionerheart1945 That's because definitions all break down at a certain level, and that's okay. We invented language as a loose approximation to describe reality, but it can't ever be exact. It is better to accept that and move on than dwell on definitions for classes having to be "exact".
It's better to ask if they're useful. And if people mostly know what you mean when you say it, that is useful.
>expected a video on subclasses
>got a video on taxonomy
>still very entertained
Tis a simple life, for a fish enjoyer.
🐟
In the words of some smart guy: "tree" is not a group, it is a strategy.
i think its a class that likes subway
“How do you top your subclass?”
Demoknight TF2 always seemed to me to be the gold standard of what a subclass is. Not much else really changes a class around as much as that, but simple changes in mindset or weapon selection's can, and people simply do what seems fun and/or silly to sorta match that level of different intended gameplay.
Holiday punch pootis pows only? Sure, why not.
Charge shot only Cow-Mangler soldiers? No one's stopping you.
Reconaissance Cloak & Dagger spy? Go for it.
Run & Gun Widowmaker Engi? Some folks love it.
It's all so unorthodox and is what makes TF2 so great.
@TheBalkanJoker Scrodulous
@TheBalkanJoker Just a made up word & name simply. ^^
@TheBalkanJoker Maybe! Hehe, it was just a made up, abbreviated name that I never gave much thought. I may change it, likely not though.
Tf2 works on "if it sounds stupid, but if works, then it not stupid".
I swear to god I thought you were gonna pull a "demoknight in tf2 always seemed like a strange case to me"
I’d describe a subclass as a loadout made that benefits but also forces you into a specific play style.
As an example, you can do a troldier-like playstyle with liberty launcher and market gardener but that doesn’t force you into that playstyle of market gardening. Swap to the rocket jumper and it does force you into market gardening while benefiting that playstyle with 0 self damage
For battle engi, you can go for a battle engi playstyle with any wrench, but you aren’t forced into it and can change playstyle by still upgrading buildings. Mini sentries can’t be upgraded though so you’re stuck with it but the mini sentries also benefit the battle engi playstyle.
Demoknight is an only subclass because it's the only one who has variety. You can be different demoknights, but Trolldier is only one.
Factually wrong. I am a trolldier that uses either the katana or the whip to abuse their increased range to exclusively get Mantread kills. Trolldiers may also come with banners or for a challenge with gunboats. Trolldiers with Shotguns are just worse DOOM guys.
@@Beginnerss Doomguys? Doomguy can't even jump, you goober. And there is the question: does changing to katana or a shotgun still counts as trolldier?
@@aanproduction1516 trolldier with shotgun is basically the same as hybrid-knight for me
@@aanproduction1516 Doomguy jumps a lot? NU-DOOM is still Doomguy if i remember my lore correctly.
At worst you can call him Quake Guy.
Regarding your question: Yes, it does since is literally just "anything but a damaging primary" which concludes with: Rocket Jumper + anything. The trolling comes from coming and going away, more similar to a Scout than a bomber/roamer.
@@aanproduction1516 yes it does, it just changes your approach in a different way
whip gives random crits and farther range but lacks the damage, so you have a harder time killing
katana offers no crits, but heals/overheals you when you kill, so targetting low health people is more preferred and makes you play as a high speed assassin, or a full blown knight if you want to use banners
my take is that demoknight having weapons designed specifically for him and his playstyle should just bring him up to actual full class, with hybrid knight being the subclass. and if you really think about it, it fits. demoman has 2 primaries, so having 2 classes is just continuing the pattern
Exactly, demoknight has different ehp (different HP if you use eyelander), speed, range, counters, and goals from demoknight, why the hell is it just considered a subclass.
We've run out of weapons to talk about so now we turn to philosophy.
If you think trying to categorize what does and doesn't qualify as a fish is a nightmare, then, if for no other reason than your own sanity, do not subject yourself to the rabbit hole that comes with trying to figure out what the fuck a worm is.
I think a subclass should be defined around how the most popular play-style of the class is.
As for Demoknight, i think calling it the only subclass is putting the bar too high, since it's the closest thing to a tenth class we have in the game.
And sorry fish, the nerd in me has to speak, Reptile is invalid and Sauropsid remains supreme.
Demoman Grenade Launcher Subclass
Huntsman sniper and demo knight felt like the only intentional sub-classes by Valve.
I'm still mad that Heavy didn't get a primary that changed his mode of operation
Either give him something to encourage the fat scout playstyle, or just make his lunchbox items able to occupy the primary slot. I know fat scout is really mundane at the core, but it's still a really fun(ny) playstyle imo.
The Huntsman is my favorite way to fight on the forefront as a Sniper, especially with some Jarate.
Please tell me you at least don't use the BS that is the Bushwacka, @@PolarGuy... Even something like the Shashasha would be useful with the piss.
I suggest giving Heavy an assault rifle in the primary slot (a variation of AK, perhaps). It wouldn't exactly make a subclass, but it would make him more mobile during the fight, unlike GRU that makes him more mobile outside the fight. It would kinda change the playstyle, making Heavy more of an offensive class that's able to do fast pushes without having his entire team wait for him.
What about Crusader's Crossbow or the Gunslinger?
Seeing demokmight as the only “true” subclass is a good meter for the thing. Using “true” as “inarguable”. Like managing charge and bash is so different from sticky traps or spam that it is obviously a subclass. While Hybridknight is not a subclass, since the main damage dealer is still charge and bash, but you keep a pipe option and forgo some maneuverability. A change in class play style, instead of a subclass. But the only way to define these things is with fuzzy definitions, so it’ll never be clean borders.
The ch in concheror is pronounced like a K. The shell he's blowing on is a conch, as in conch chowder. It's a play on words to sound like conquerer. Get it?
Absolutely love the melee music, and you had great points, and the jokes were pretty good. Solid A-tier, well done FSOAS.
I think Uncle Dane's argument of "Battle Engie isn't a subclass, it's a mindset" is basically how it works for all subclasses, it's just how you want to play, and it's a simple easy way to call out what role you're trying to play.
You hear "Engie on the front Lines" you think it's easy pickings.
You hear "Battle Engie on the front lines" you start looking for sentries on flanks and be ready for a Frontier Crit.
Honestly if valve just let Heavy equip the shotguns in his primary slot AND his secondary slot, Fat Scout would be a genuine subclass. That way he could have both a Shotgun and a Sandvich at the same time, which essentially forces him to play differently instead of just having him ignore his Minigun like current Fat Scout.
or we could let heavy equip sandvich in both primary and secondary slot
@@correctly2167 double sandvich pog
heavy knight reign supreme
8:26 birds are technically also reptiles
Here is my take on Subclass:
A change in playstyle prominent enough to be recognized by the wider community
The core of classes in practice are to communicate what a player should expect in one or two words, soldiers fire rockets and might come at you from the sky, spies will be trying to sabotage your engies and subtitle take out you or your teammates, and medic will sit behind their team and heal.
You would call out a subclass when these norms are broken in a way that happens regularly enough to become a recognizable pattern
A demoknight and trolldier are a subclass because they deviate in a specific enough way and with enough regularity to get their own designation
Ultimately this “definition” is loose as it depends purely on “memes” shared around the community but it’s the best I’ve got
My personal definition: If you change your class's role on the team and the new role requires you to spam one or more non-stock weapons, it's a subclass.
Welcome to what I like to call "FSoaS learns about the hell scientists go through in regards to our entire existence: TF2 Edition!"
This is probably the most philosophical video FishStick has made.
I always though of it like this
Large change in gameplay?
Viable enough to topscore easily if you put in the time to learn?
Changes strengths and weakness of class role heavily?
If all three are yes then its a subclass and not a gimmick.
subclass to me is just a way of changing how you play that class in a way that isn't just a a number modification that changes how you deal damage based on a specific condition (etc. setting enemies on fire to deal mini crits, right click charge does minicrit mega explosion, etc.). Stuff like fatscout isn't a subclass, that's regular heavy. I'd argue that the sandwiches are more of an actual subclass since they change how you interact with the map, as healing on the spot makes you tank better while on the frontlines, but also makes you a minor support where you can help give hefty healing towards a teammmate (or minor instant healing if you go with the banana or chocolate), Steak Heavy is also a subclass that necessitates a brawler or assassin playstyle as it forces you into melee range.
Soldier Knight is a unique subclass mostly revolving around using the zatoichi and pairing it with the rocket jumper and any of the banners, encouraging you to engage with the enemy to score a kill
The end really tied it together, good vid fish!
I'd like to appreciate just how many jokes Fish packed into the opening 5 seconds of script.
I did not expect this to be the video where my intense interests in biology and tf2 overlapped but HOLY SHIT AM I HERE FOR IT! Very good video fish thx :)
Like goddamn I need a series about the taxonomy of tf2 yesterday. Probably not much wide appeal but fuck that I need more of this video
Taxonomy showing up in this video is literally the greatest thing and makes me remarkably happy.
Real answer.
Sub Class were meant to be a thing in TF2 that Valve inteeded to add with Demoknight being the first one ever but Valve being Valve deised to abandon this concept and never touch on it again.
So the TF2 community did what they do best, cope and fool themselves into thinking the game has lots of subclass when in reality there's only one.
I feel like a subclass is a set of items which physically prevents you from playing the traditional way a class is played.
So demoknight is a subclass because you physically can't lob pipes and stickies like a normal demoman
Trolldier is a subclass because you can't use rockets or your shotgun.
Demo with the base-jumper and sticky jumper is a form of demoknight called demoflight because you're still navigating the map a high speeds to get melee kills.
This means that demoknight and trolldier are the only subclasses.
If valve were to add a support weapon to heavy's primary then fat scout would become a subclass.
there are two kinds:
1. good subclass: play like its a new class because of weapons
2. gimmick: play this way 4 funnies
99% are the ladder
13:39 Well that's just philosophy in general.
I see it as a combination of both definitions. Both a change of mindset and a change of weapons that specifically compliment that subclass.
*Shows text in the after outro segment*
*Recommended videos completely block the text out*
*Goes on vacation and refuses to elaborate*
I think that is any loadout with a mindset that changes totally the way you usually can play, like the paratrooper that makes you an air danger, the milkman that makes you a support and not an offensive like scout is supposed, the pyroshark, because it changes totally what a pyro is made to normally do, the huntsman makes sniper a front line character and not an behind all the wall of tankies because the hunstman does less damage and doesn't have an eyehole that makes you see further the targets, the demoknight and trolldier i think that don't need to explain why are they subclasses, so for me those are the 6 subclasses
Taxonomie is beautiful. It also reveals the unavoidable fact: nothing is fact. The difference between fish and mammal is a gradient so gradual that any slice of a couple million years could be part of a species; the ones we found are those million-year slices, and those we have now are the tiny thousand-year fraction of a million-year slice of future prehistory.
I for one found this resolution very satisfying. Thank you Fish
As a biologist your use of taxonomy and cladistics is a terrible metaphor for what are subclasses but i love it anyway
13:48 fish just glosses over how he got the files of the destroyed Conagher Slaughterhouse (that one we see when soldier is giving his testimony on what he saw)
This is an excellent video, my favorite commentary on this subject I've heard so far
"just a bunch of dorks in lab coats trying to figure out if we're fish or not"
Speaking as someone who is studying biology stuff, I appreciate the taxonomy stuff and comparison. Also chuckle on the plant taxaonmy blood bath joke
it wouldn't be like a sap bath or something?
He finally did it. Fish managed to make a main line video where he gets to complain about scientists and talk about animals. We're just missing the government conspiracies.
What’s that Syndrome line from the Incredibles? “If everyone’s super, no one will be.” Indeed. Subclasses have seemed like a strange case to me.
Is the platypus a subclass? It's a warm-blooded animal with mammary glands, that is amphibious, has a bill, lays eggs, and is venomous.
I really wish fish would talk about taxonomy more. Love seeing him in his element
Either it's everything is or nothing is a subclass, then there's things like platypus exist
Pingas scout is the only sub class
Here’s my idea, a subclass is when a class changes up the way that it is played without changing the function of that class, a subsection of a class. For example battle engineer still uses building for support, but instead of staying back to maintain the builds, he goes and attacks the enemy team directly. Then there is side classes, where the class changes its function based on the loadout, like crossbow/ubersaw medics being battle medics. Then there is the strange case of demoknight which I would consider to be a brand new class under the mask of demoman
For sniper with the hunstman I do see as a subclass because there are scenarios where a bow will do better than a rifle and others where a rifle can do the same thing a bow can but better. The more a weapon or tool changes your playstyle,strategy, effective range/zone/placement/etc., the more you can call it a subclass.
3:00 that's why I play Fat Pyro instead of Fat Scout, where everything is the same between them except I use the Huo-Long Heater for a minigun, using the shotgun as my primary and the huo-long as a secondary/close-range/ambush tool
Subclasses I can think of as in play-style feeling pretty different from base:
-Huntsman sniper
-Demoknight
-Rocket Jumper soldier
-Jet pack Pyro
-Gunslinger Engineer
-Basically any different Medic Ubercharge (they incentive different play styles)
-KGB heavy
-Ambassador spy
-Wrangler/Rescue Ranger Engineer (sentry protector).
If i have to say what count as a subclass.
1: Weapon change to do a certain purpose.
Weapon for when you want to play the class differently.
2: Mindset when playing.
The mindset for how you would be playing.
3: Commitment on the first 2.
So you can standout from the base play style of a class.
That's actually a fairly decent logical flow. As I've probably said before on other things, comparing new inputs to preexisting models can usually yield more coherent classifications or results.
Fish, wearing a Syndrome cosplay: "And when everyone is a subclass, no one will be."
Everyone is asking "What's a Subclass?", and never "How's the Subclass?"
fun fact, last time i heard "fish" isnt a taxonomic group anymore
but i might remember something wrong
Lazypurple being a egg of a pybro is wild
I appreciate the taxonomy/biology talk fish.
Demoknight has multiple choises for loadout, swords, shields, etc...
It's smaller class, specifically built into another class
Troldier has only the jumper and shovel, changing either is no longer a troldier
A demoman is a demoman, you can’t say it’s only a demoknight
This is simple:
Full Melee Demoknight and Trolldier are entire new classes.
If you can't damage Engineer's buildings with explosive weapons, you're not a Demoman or a Soldier.
And none of those classes are efficients in terms of teamplay since they can't accomplish their main goals reliably (aka crowd control and nest destruction for the most parts).
Not to mention both violates some TF2 core design about classes. And both are incredibly annoying to fight against.
I think the real meaning of a subclass is changing the position of this one in the tree of classes (Attack,Defense and support) for example: if you change your soldier to trolldier, you are changing from attack to support (just like picking sniper without picking sniper because youre attacking specific targets. Pybro: would pass from being an attack class to a defend class and demoman with demoknight, that would pass from being a defense class to attack class, just like scout role but better (or worse) in some way.
9:45
Palm trees are grass
5:35 if that means that huntmen isnt a subclass , then battle engie also falls into that category since you only need the gunslinger
I would add one more line to the definition that you gave in the video and that is that the subclass actually has to have a viable playstyle and be effective at it's own thing and not just be a meme.
Fsoas, I hope ya know that while you may not be the most popular, you always make at least a few people really happy when ya upload. Cheers mate.
I will note, Trolldier and Demoknight’s main defining “subclass factor” are the weapons they use. No Demoknight uses a stickybomb launcher, and no Trolldier uses anything but the Rocket Jumper. The Dragon’s Fury isn’t much different in playstyle, as you’re mostly holding W+M1 still, but Huntsman is a significant change from a sniper rifle for a back line class, to what is effectively a battle rifle.
For that last subclass category I would personally call them "Callout Subclasses", in that just using one specific weapon isn't enough for me to call it a subclass but I still call them out as if they were one. For example, I wouldn't tell my team to look out for a, "Sniper," but rather a, "Huntsman Sniper." This also applies to how I treat the Challenges category, as they're pretty similar to the last category in a lot of ways. So similarly I wouldn't callout, "Heavy," I would callout, "Fat Scout." In this way these categories interact with communicating with your team in a very particular way. You say these callouts so that they can more accurately understand the threat they must deal with, i.e. they aren't going to deal with a Huntsman Sniper or Fat Scout the same way they would a regular Sniper or Heavy.
Demoknight tf2
If something is not a sub class, it could then very well be called a *DOM CLASS*
I've been questioning if backburner pyro playing more like a spy is a subclass
I love the stupid little sfm/gmod animations added in
A subclass is any loadout that causes a big enough difference in how an opponent fights against it to merit being given a callout by the community. Demoknight, huntsman, trolldier, and that ilk make the cut.
subclass is like a cladistics term for how fucking vague it is
Congratulations fish. I think you’ve just started a civil war.
It's pretty simple, if you go off demoknight. A Subclass is a weapon set that FORCES you to play in a different way that you usually do with your usual class, plus the set needs to be built around a weapon.
Hybridknight doesnt force you to charge in and use your sword, you can just spam your primary. Battle engi is really just an "aggresive playstyle on engineer", the gunslinger just makes you better at the aggresive part and worse on the defensive. Same goes to a lot of "lets ignore the primary". Full trolldier can be defined , because rocket jumping is not optional, rather than shooting hitscan and projectiles, you use rocket jumping to propel yourself. You also can counter trolldier by walking in a weird pattern, which can't be done for the regular soldier jumping you. So yeah, trolldier and demokinght are the only ones.
i absolutely love languages and the innate human instinct to categorize things for their ability to makes us insane
there is also some people that use subclass is just a loadout with a theme. like limescout, its just scout with lime colored cosmetic
I thought everyone knew that everything is a pyro subclass. Scout? Fast gun pyro. Heavy? Fat gun pyro. Demoman? Bomb pyro. Demoknight? Sword bomb pyro. I can do this all day
the pybro subclass has ONE thing it can do compared to normal pyro.
A pybro can REMOVE SAPPERS something a normal pyro can't do.
"When everyone's a subclass, *_no one is."_*
So youre telling me that, when i go and use the holiday punch to go for backstabs it IS in fact a subclass???
I think the reason why DemoKnight is the only thing considered as a subclass is because of one simple thing. Everything else can be mixed up except for it and every part of the DemoKnight's kit is a necessity.
For example, Trolldier can be mixed up, you are not required to use the Rocket Jumper as a launching method, all RL's propel you up, meaning you still have the explosive power of the RLs. You don't need the Manntreads to deal damage, in fact its unreliable because most of the time you land on the ground or you have already market gardened the enemy, the only thing required is the Market Gardener, which even if you have RL + Banners or RL + Shotguns or RL + Boots you can still play Trolldier. The one thing that will make it a true subclass is if the Market Gardener deals significantly more damage based on your air time and if with it equipped launching yourself removes any and all debuffs you have, that way the RJ and Manntreads becomes a necessity rather than option because it gives you air time for your MG kills and encourages you to just fly all over the map.
Battle Engie as well as Dane said in his video and as said here, its more of a mindset, instead of defense, you go on offensive pushes, both mini and regular sentries can be used for offensive combat. The only way to make Battle Engie a true subclass is if there more than 2 weapons that are reliant on the Engie to go on the offensive, FJ exist already so as the Widowmaker, had there been a pistol that maybe deals more damage vs enemies targeted by the sentry then maybe because then, it becomes a necessity to go on the offensive not to mention a mini dispenser to actually encourage you.
DemoKnight on the other hand has to have EVERYTHING, you can't be a DemoKnight if you have any explosives. That's what the wiki means by "drastic" because its really something different, not to mention all of the weapons of a DemoKnight works ONLY if you are fully Knighted, the boots have a bonus movement speed that needs you to have the Shield equipped, the swords don't crit unless you have the shield and most swords have a bonus that encourages you to do so, Eyelander + Reskins have the heads which gives you HP and movement speed, Persuader recharges your charge to charge more, the Zatoichi gives HP on kill which overheals. (Skullcutter doesn't count its an axe) and your Shield gives you a charge to basically close the distance on your enemies and provides some protection vs anything EXCEPT MELEE and Bullets which encourages your enemies to stay in range because you are tanky vs other options or you have to be a bullet based class like Scout or Heavy, every part of the kit is a NECCESSITY not just a fun option.
I would argue fat scout counts as to get the most from it you have to change both playstyle AND load out, similar to Demoknight and Trolldier. I mean sure you can TRY doing it with nothing but stock but the same can be said for Trolldier and Demoknight simply by swapping the melee but to get the most out of fat scout you need to commit, running the KGB or GRU with the family business or panic attack for fat scout and changing from a front-line tank to a flank and spank burst DPS scout that can take a few pipes.
As far as I understand the taxonomy debate, which im calling characteristics vs cladistics.
I believe the cladistics group won’t say every tetrapod is a fish (or if they would they would back it up to every vertebrate being fish) but rather fish in itself is an improper term as it is paraphyletic (does not include all descendant classes as part of the grouping) like how we don’t recognize pachyderm as a real grouping since hippos/elephants/rhinos aren’t particularly related.
5:33 Lobbing shots into the void hoping you hit something is not something almost any sniper does, unless they're using the Huntsman. It's pretty unique to the weapon. (Unless you consider the Jarate, I suppose.)
Snipers using the Huntsman are much more mobile than typical snipers, since they can charge shots very quickly without losing any movement speed by jumping. A bodyshot with a charged Huntsman shot does 120 damage, putting light and medium classes only a few SMG shots from death, which is a tactic that's much easier to pull off at close range than quickscoping with a normal sniper rifle. One more change is that a sniper using the Huntsman is far less prone to tunnel vision than other snipers, even compared to using the Classic.
All of those changes, plus the fact that the Huntsman is a projectile weapon, encourage snipers using it to get fairly close to the enemy and take the fight directly to them, which is almost antithetical to a normal sniper's playstyle. That's why I consider the Huntsman significantly different, different enough to qualify as a subclass. I don't normally think of a player using them as "a sniper with a Huntsman", they're just Huntsmen to me, same as Trolldiers or Demoknights. The differences in their weapons make them behave differently enough to warrant separate categories.
For those reasons and others I think Huntsman with Jarate + Bushwhacka qualifies for the "overhaul" category based on the criteria. It basically turns the class role inside out so that the closer you are to the front line, the more effective you get; you can be the spy-checker instead of the spy victim; actively buff the team/debuff the enemy instead of being too far away to contribute; shoot over and under obstacles to hit people you can't see instead of requiring clear sight lines... plus the obvious, you're playing the sniper class without any actual guns.
i think anything is a suclass where it would be significantly benifitial to have a diffrent icon on the leaderboard for your team
I say a subclass is the loadout.
Your class is the guy you pick in the menu.
Only the menu can change it.
It stands to reason that a subclass is the same.
That guy's loadout you select via menu.
Technically every loadout is a subclass.
We just name the ones that actually matter.
I'd go even farther with further taxonomy, with ninjaneer being a subgroup of battle engie, hybridknight a subgroup of demoknight, etc.
my money's on the TF2 wiki just not updating the page with that definition on it in too long
We could also just rely on the idea that a subclass is just what the majority of people call a subclass
great video from tetrapod on a weird looking fat grass
In a Durkheimian sense, the category of “subclass” exists to show us the outer bounds of acceptable TF2 behavior- even if only base weapons were available, the range of what a class is would narrow, but the exceptions would still be defined as subclasses.
In a Marxian sense, the category of subclass seeks to destroy the thesis of “acceptable” TF2 classes, creating a new standard of what is the class and what is the subclass from there. Conversely, the class is attempting to prevent this by preventing subclass consciousness from emerging.
Battle engi
> change one weapon
> basically just a weird version of stock
> subclass
Huntsman sniper
> change one weapon
> basically just a weird version of stock
> not a subclass?
You already described this in the video but I wanted to point out how silly it is