A certain someone who shall remain nameless accidentally turned on some goofy theater mode that my camera apparently has. I've never figured out how to turn it on. Lol.
@@Hyce777Are you aware the University of York in the UK has a master's degree in Railroad History? I REALLY think you should apply... and then vlog the experience.
Here in the north Czechia, we still use only the good old Tatra trams. We have only one modern tram no.86 (i hate it) and a few historic ones that run only like once a year.
dayum, they werent kidding with the acceleration. that puppies got some getup and go on her and hearing the level of R&D they put into it to minmax its capabilities is freaking cool.
I absolutely love the PCC cars. I first fell head over heals with the exterior ascetic. But when I learned about the engineering and that wonderful smooth power controller- that really got my interest going.
When I was a kid growing up in northern New Jersey I actually rode on these when they were in regular service on the Newark city subway, a lot of fun memories.
As a PCC operator and former NJ resident, I thoroughly enjoyed this. You actually did pretty good for a first timer, even getting the service latch on the first try without putting the car into emergency. I'd definitely like to see you tackle a traditional hand-controlled car next (come to the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum, we have plenty of those that I could show you :p)
As someone who lives in the Twin Cities and volunteers at the Twin City Model Railroad Museum with a O Scale layout that also models the Trolley system we all regret the decisions of the past that they got rid of the trolley system. Its because of those decisions that have made it to where light rail had to take over sections of the toad rather than wotk with it like the trolley system did. Im so glad to see that another one of those trolleys survives and is still used rather than being outright destroyed. This brings much joy and now i want to visit this museum rven more. Thank you Hyce for going out there and sharing this place
Westinghouse and GE both designed and built sophisticated pre-electronic motor controls for these cars. Pilot motors spinning a commutator creating seemingly continuous resistance steps. Pre-electronic motor control at its finest. IMO, even the car body design looks better than most modern transit cars. But I'm a nerd boomer .. everything railroad was better than now :)
Hi Mark, you getting to operate that trolley was so ultra cool! Brill’s tour of this was fabulous and I learned even more about these wonderful machines. Loved hearing from Brill about all the period spare parts, records and even upholstery fabric that they have in their collection. That is every curator and preservationist’s dream come true! Wow so impressive. Brill’s story about kids messing with the rope catchers reminds me of the hilarious trolley scene in the classic 1944 film “Meet Me in St. Louis”. 😂 Enjoyed hearing your description, Mark, of what operating the trolley felt like. Seemed to accelerate pretty fast and so quiet too-gives new meaning to “give it the beans”! 🤣 Many thanks to Brill for a magnificent tour. And, as always, thanks to you Professor for this excellent virtual experience. Like a class field trip! Cheers to you and Brill!
Swell show!!! 👀❤ . Here in Toronto Ontario Canada the city had the PCC from September 1938 to the mid 1995. I rode on them for MANY!!! decades . They have since replaced them over the last forty years . - 2/22/2024 🤠
More tractionisms!! One of our PCC down (or over) here at the National Capital Trolley Museum has a backup controller, though much less touchy with stopping 😅. Should've had Brill teach you how to give the johnstown car the beans ah well. Great stuff as always!!
Toronto Transit Commission - TTC Toronto was one of the biggest operator of PCC's, they called the Red Rockets. You can see some of them at the Halton County Radial Railway Museum today
Great video. I may be a bit biased toward conventional cars but I like the pccs every once in a while. The thing with streetcars in general is that they all have their own personality.
literally our Green line subway in Boston cars looked almost identical to that 1946. As I was typing this the Guide said they were actually from ‘42 which is crazy. The real problem with ours in the modern world is the track gauge they run on. We can’t have bigger cars to accommodate the record numbers of ppl using the system. That might be a Boston thing but it’s def a thing or at least the excuse we hear from the state.
The subway lines in Boston are all originally streetcar tunnels, so they are smaller than modern subway tunnels, so yeah, it is a genuine problem, not government scapegoating for once...
I live in Kenosha, WI. The cars for our streetcar line came from Toronto. This video brought back memories from riding it. Unfortunately many people think it is a waste of money so when Kenosha wanted to expand it was voted down.
By the way there used to be something called the MIT Express in Boston it's where they would unhook the trolley Pole from The Wire and then one of them would wait for the operator to get off the car to fix the trolley Pole and then run on to the trolley put it in full forward and make a beeline to MIT
a combination of you and Lawries Mechanical Marvels got me into the idea of Volunteering at Mangapps, a Museum railway line in Essex (the British one) , 2 months on i've worked on a fair few BR Class 03's, spotted for some shunting, looking to get training as a driver and done some paintwork on a 1910 wooden passenger carriage and i wont ever look back. preserving mechanical history is the most fun i've ever had. i hope i get the opportunity to work at a Railroad museum when i move to the States too
Thanks Hyce! I was impatiently waiting for part 2. And to see that the entire show is about the PCC car made me smile. 😊 I LOVE PCC CARS! I envied you when you operated the PCC car. You were having so much fun running it I felt it was so unfair...but, that's life. 😢 But, l managed to enjoy the entire episode. I hope you do more shows like this one. Thanks for almost 26 minutes of bliss! 👍😉 I LOVE TRACTION!!!
Great video! You had an excellent host as well who was part of the team that brought NJT #6 back to life in 2011. Having led the efforts to acquire the car in 2011 and get it back into running condition and cosmetically improved over a 4 month period, I’m glad to see this car still going strong. Many of the same team who brought #6 back to life are now involved with the comprehensive restoration of sister car #26 at Baltimore Streetcar Museum, which is planned for completion later this year.
I just watched this episode. I used to ride Public Service busses when I was a kid in the '60's to & from school. The service was great & the people were wonderful that I had interaction with. You could go just about anywhere on the busses all the way to Newark & to Netcong. If I had to do the commute thing between Public Service & NJT I'd pick Public Service every time. The Morris Canal ran through Rockaway Boro, Wharton, Dover, & Boonton & other places. There's a lot of roads that are filled, paved over canal planes & flats (can't remember the proper name). Part of the train tracks in Dover are canal flats paved over. I enjoyed both parts of this video. thank you so much, it was good to see the Newark car.
Thankyou so much for posting this Hyce; this has put the biggest smile on my face for a long time ❤ First, it's fantastic to see you playing in the same area of rail that I exist in, and it's fantastic to see you getting so much joy in it 😊 Secondly, I started in preservation, so this is bringing back a lot of fond memories. And... I'm long term injured, and cannot tram anymore. So it's fantastic to relive the joy of it all. So... thankyou again for this wonderful video 😊❤
The PCC car has so much personality. Thank you Brill and Hyce for showing it to us. Hoping I can see it myself sometime soon! and holy crow these still run in San Francisco?? #boggled
I wish I could work with rail preservation like you and these others do. My attempts previously to get a job somewhere have been unsuccessful since no one it seems wants to teach someone from the ground up… no matter how much I want to learn, get dirty, and get active.
Could we get a video running one of the diesels at the CRRM, I think it'd be cool to see how they work and how they operate. Similar to the video you did with RGS 20.
Hey Hyce, that seems fun, but I wonder if you’d want to compare trolley museums… at the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum, we have some other cars that they don’t have, I wonder which one you’d think is better
I think the IRM has a program where all you need is a valid driver's license, a bit of money, to be over 18, to operate pieces there (I am assuming electric traction). I might have to to that sometime... Thanks!
So far I have driven D&RGW Nos. 346 & 491 as well as RGS No. 20 and CRRM's Velocipeade. Looking forward to adding the Geese to that list......maybe even D&RGW Diesel No. 50 someday?
Two things: - I'm simple man. I see "That's straight piece of track. Give'er all the beans, Captain!" I press like 🤣 - I'm used to watch big old Eastern Europe Electric choo-choos. And every change in position of the throtle (pedal in this case) on them is always made with sounds of many contractors going brrrr to switch the motor cofiguration, resistors and other thingis. I was always wondering how it is made on trams (or trolleys as you guys in US saying) in a way, that nothing is heard from inside. Is a throttle pedal acting as a big potentiometer for motors to change the fields in windings or just control the overal voltage level or sth?
Is this where I'm supposed to be a gatekeeper and say you haven't "really" run an electric trolley until you've experienced the quirkiness of a motorman's handle? I saw this type of pedal control in the PCC cars in...er...Kenosha, WI, and figured it must have been a modification to be more similar to buses. Now I've leaned something!
Always wondered how they handled back up moves on museum PCCs and now I know. If you notice on the classic green and white CTA cars they have those signature PCC portholes and that's because when the CTA retired the Green Hornets they shipped them back to St. Louis Car Company for reuse of components in building the new elevated cars. Additionally the Green Hornets almost got a second life in CTA service when the old Chicago Aurora & Elgin abruptly shut down in 58 there was talk of tearing out the transfer loops between the CTA and CAE and continued service by connecting the two lines and equipping PCC cars with third rail pick up shoes and air horns for open country running on the CAE's third rail system. Unfortunately the plan never came to be as Illinois government then as now is a ginormous clusterflop and by the time they got done diddling about the former ridership had moved to a one seat ride on the CNW, Burlington or Milwaukee Road and the CAE exists today as the Illinois Prarie Path. And finally not only can you still ride one of the CTA Green Hornets out at IRM but if you drive a bit north of the state line you can ride them in ( and you're going to love this) Kenosha Wisconsin in an actual albeit limited public transport service as they purchased a number of retired Toronto PCC cars, retrucked them on some surplus CTA standard gauge trucks and painted them in liveries of various legendary PCC systems.
@@Hyce777 Or you've destroyed so many that there was a mix-up at the factory, who knows, if you get one that says "TB&RGW" on the side, we'll know for sure
As soon as Hyce started running the car, I thought "wait, what are you supposed to do with your hands?" And as it turns out...nothing. I would hate that, personally.
Are the camera effects added, or do you need to bring a geiger counter for your next visit?
A certain someone who shall remain nameless accidentally turned on some goofy theater mode that my camera apparently has. I've never figured out how to turn it on. Lol.
@Hyce777 I was wondering if it was filmed on 8 mm but no it's just a nameless human who accidentally turned on theater mode
@@Hyce777 bretttttttt?😂😂😂
@@Hyce777 It was 491 wasn't it, she was jealous....
@@Hyce777Are you aware the University of York in the UK has a master's degree in Railroad History?
I REALLY think you should apply... and then vlog the experience.
Yay! The PCC trams! As a Czech, we of course love our PCC based Tatra trams that are still roaming the streets of Prague to this day!
I've been 5-7 years ago in your country. Some of them yee 'ole trams that I rode then propably have been one of them!
Love Czechia and your tram and rail systems!
Here in the north Czechia, we still use only the good old Tatra trams. We have only one modern tram no.86 (i hate it) and a few historic ones that run only like once a year.
I liked the message at the end. I started volunteering at a wooden boat museum and I've made so many friends and now teach sailing lessons there!
dayum, they werent kidding with the acceleration. that puppies got some getup and go on her and hearing the level of R&D they put into it to minmax its capabilities is freaking cool.
I absolutely love the PCC cars. I first fell head over heals with the exterior ascetic. But when I learned about the engineering and that wonderful smooth power controller- that really got my interest going.
When I was a kid growing up in northern New Jersey I actually rode on these when they were in regular service on the Newark city subway, a lot of fun memories.
I ride the Newark Subway, now the Newark Light Rail. Puts a smile on my face seeing these old cars even though they are before my time.
"What do I do with my hands?" 😂😂😂
EVERY tram driver (myself included) has had this conversation ❤
As a PCC operator and former NJ resident, I thoroughly enjoyed this. You actually did pretty good for a first timer, even getting the service latch on the first try without putting the car into emergency. I'd definitely like to see you tackle a traditional hand-controlled car next (come to the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum, we have plenty of those that I could show you :p)
As someone who lives in the Twin Cities and volunteers at the Twin City Model Railroad Museum with a O Scale layout that also models the Trolley system we all regret the decisions of the past that they got rid of the trolley system. Its because of those decisions that have made it to where light rail had to take over sections of the toad rather than wotk with it like the trolley system did. Im so glad to see that another one of those trolleys survives and is still used rather than being outright destroyed. This brings much joy and now i want to visit this museum rven more. Thank you Hyce for going out there and sharing this place
Hearing the Morris Canal get a call out made me smile. Other than everything else, that brightened my day.
I saw the NJ Transit logo on the sticker in the part 1 thumbnail, and figured this was coming. As a guy who grew up in NJ, I appreciate this.
Westinghouse and GE both designed and built sophisticated pre-electronic motor controls for these cars. Pilot motors spinning a commutator creating seemingly continuous resistance steps. Pre-electronic motor control at its finest. IMO, even the car body design looks better than most modern transit cars. But I'm a nerd boomer .. everything railroad was better than now :)
So cool. The US used to have so many trolley lines even out west prior to the depression. Glad to see the history being kept alive.
Hi Mark, you getting to operate that trolley was so ultra cool! Brill’s tour of this was fabulous and I learned even more about these wonderful machines. Loved hearing from Brill about all the period spare parts, records and even upholstery fabric that they have in their collection. That is every curator and preservationist’s dream come true! Wow so impressive. Brill’s story about kids messing with the rope catchers reminds me of the hilarious trolley scene in the classic 1944 film “Meet Me in St. Louis”. 😂 Enjoyed hearing your description, Mark, of what operating the trolley felt like. Seemed to accelerate pretty fast and so quiet too-gives new meaning to “give it the beans”! 🤣 Many thanks to Brill for a magnificent tour. And, as always, thanks to you Professor for this excellent virtual experience. Like a class field trip! Cheers to you and Brill!
I rode the PC7 cars in Newark, and even went on the final ride night, when they were retiring them. Thanks for the memories!
I volunteer at the fox river trolley museum in Elgin, IL and watching this makes me excited to go back on the regular when summer arrives.
Hyce triple threat driver of the rails!
Swell show!!! 👀❤ . Here in Toronto Ontario Canada the city had the PCC from September 1938 to the mid 1995. I rode on them for MANY!!! decades . They have since replaced them over the last forty years . - 2/22/2024 🤠
We technically still do have them, but, they only run in regular service on certain weekends in July, particularly on Canada Day...
More tractionisms!! One of our PCC down (or over) here at the National Capital Trolley Museum has a backup controller, though much less touchy with stopping 😅. Should've had Brill teach you how to give the johnstown car the beans ah well. Great stuff as always!!
Toronto Transit Commission - TTC Toronto was one of the biggest operator of PCC's, they called the Red Rockets. You can see some of them at the Halton County Radial Railway Museum today
8:12 Wow 😯 Fabulous some of the *Originals* are still Operating!
Great video. I may be a bit biased toward conventional cars but I like the pccs every once in a while. The thing with streetcars in general is that they all have their own personality.
We desperately need a game with old style trams and trolleys. Come Hyce…you know you want to…
literally our Green line subway in Boston cars looked almost identical to that 1946. As I was typing this the Guide said they were actually from ‘42 which is crazy. The real problem with ours in the modern world is the track gauge they run on. We can’t have bigger cars to accommodate the record numbers of ppl using the system. That might be a Boston thing but it’s def a thing or at least the excuse we hear from the state.
The subway lines in Boston are all originally streetcar tunnels, so they are smaller than modern subway tunnels, so yeah, it is a genuine problem, not government scapegoating for once...
Not track gauge, but loading gauge.
Wow, what an interesting way of operating! I actually have a new appreciation for trolleys
I live in Kenosha, WI. The cars for our streetcar line came from Toronto. This video brought back memories from riding it. Unfortunately many people think it is a waste of money so when Kenosha wanted to expand it was voted down.
Number 6 looks very strange with that windscreen design
By the way there used to be something called the MIT Express in Boston it's where they would unhook the trolley Pole from The Wire and then one of them would wait for the operator to get off the car to fix the trolley Pole and then run on to the trolley put it in full forward and make a beeline to MIT
Having run a LARY narrow gauge pcc car they are a blast to run ..
a combination of you and Lawries Mechanical Marvels got me into the idea of Volunteering at Mangapps, a Museum railway line in Essex (the British one) , 2 months on i've worked on a fair few BR Class 03's, spotted for some shunting, looking to get training as a driver and done some paintwork on a 1910 wooden passenger carriage and i wont ever look back. preserving mechanical history is the most fun i've ever had. i hope i get the opportunity to work at a Railroad museum when i move to the States too
YAY PCCs! I see the San Francisco fleet fairly often, and I visit the Rio Vista museum where they get their overhauls. And yes, they can MOVE.
Wow Iooks like you had a lot of fun running The electric trolley.
Thanks Hyce! I was impatiently waiting for part 2. And to see that the entire show is about the PCC car made me smile. 😊 I LOVE PCC CARS! I envied you when you operated the PCC car. You were having so much fun running it I felt it was so unfair...but, that's life. 😢 But, l managed to enjoy the entire episode. I hope you do more shows like this one. Thanks for almost 26 minutes of bliss! 👍😉 I LOVE TRACTION!!!
I remember when SF opened that Waterfront Trolley Line. They are kept in pretty good condition at least exterior-wise
Great video! You had an excellent host as well who was part of the team that brought NJT #6 back to life in 2011. Having led the efforts to acquire the car in 2011 and get it back into running condition and cosmetically improved over a 4 month period, I’m glad to see this car still going strong. Many of the same team who brought #6 back to life are now involved with the comprehensive restoration of sister car #26 at Baltimore Streetcar Museum, which is planned for completion later this year.
What an awesome piece of history that streetcar is!
I just watched this episode. I used to ride Public Service busses when I was a kid in the '60's to & from school. The service was great & the people were wonderful that I had interaction with. You could go just about anywhere on the busses all the way to Newark & to Netcong. If I had to do the commute thing between Public Service & NJT I'd pick Public Service every time. The Morris Canal ran through Rockaway Boro, Wharton, Dover, & Boonton & other places. There's a lot of roads that are filled, paved over canal planes & flats (can't remember the proper name). Part of the train tracks in Dover are canal flats paved over.
I enjoyed both parts of this video. thank you so much, it was good to see the Newark car.
Thankyou so much for posting this Hyce; this has put the biggest smile on my face for a long time ❤
First, it's fantastic to see you playing in the same area of rail that I exist in, and it's fantastic to see you getting so much joy in it 😊
Secondly, I started in preservation, so this is bringing back a lot of fond memories.
And... I'm long term injured, and cannot tram anymore. So it's fantastic to relive the joy of it all.
So... thankyou again for this wonderful video 😊❤
In den haag (the heague in english) we used to have pcc trams with pantographs, in antwerpen they still run theirs in daily service on 1 or 2 lines
Fun fact, PCCs are still in revenue service here in Boston!
YES ELECTRIC TRACTION (im a Traction foamer trolleys and Electric Locomotives are my thing)
As a Minnesnowtan, I have been around that trolley many times. Now I know where it is located for a summer road trip with my wife. Thank you Hyce.
That looks like so much fun!
Always fun to explore and experience a different flavor of railroading. :)
I rode these as a kid into Newark Penn, I remember like yesterday. Thanks for sharing.
Again, another wonderful program. Thanks Mark!
Now we just need Hyde to visit the Illinois Railway Museum
The PCC car has so much personality. Thank you Brill and Hyce for showing it to us. Hoping I can see it myself sometime soon! and holy crow these still run in San Francisco?? #boggled
I used to ride one of these to and from school every day... They were loud and BOY were they hot! Like being in an oven.
Love that Philadelphia is running these again on route 15
The trolleys used in shuttle service in Boston were built in 1944.
I wish I could work with rail preservation like you and these others do. My attempts previously to get a job somewhere have been unsuccessful since no one it seems wants to teach someone from the ground up… no matter how much I want to learn, get dirty, and get active.
BRB @work. Love the *thumbnail* that smirk 😏 says it allll 👉
12:21 DAM > Welll this got exciting! *Edit* 12:35 Hauling Ass O.O
lol the rollercoaster bar
I remember kids pulling the connectors off and shutting down the trolley. It seemed to be a past time for juvenile delinquents.
Looks like an awesome experience!
Could we get a video running one of the diesels at the CRRM, I think it'd be cool to see how they work and how they operate. Similar to the video you did with RGS 20.
The museum guy looks like Dwight Schrute
Dang, this would be LOVELY to ride
Full beans!
Im from Jersey, fairly close to were that PCC ran. Pretty cool
This is so cool
Hey Hyce, that seems fun, but I wonder if you’d want to compare trolley museums… at the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum, we have some other cars that they don’t have, I wonder which one you’d think is better
They're all worth and wonderful, my friend. :)
This is something I should probably do if I ever want to get into the rail industry. Probably anyways.
That thing is way more silent than the trams in Bucharest. And faster, lol.
Technical question: How do you rectify the power during dynamic braking when you’re feeding power back to an AC system?
Very nice video, likes from me🤩!!!
I think the IRM has a program where all you need is a valid driver's license, a bit of money, to be over 18, to operate pieces there (I am assuming electric traction). I might have to to that sometime... Thanks!
i definitely need to put in more time at irm
So far I have driven D&RGW Nos. 346 & 491 as well as RGS No. 20 and CRRM's Velocipeade. Looking forward to adding the Geese to that list......maybe even D&RGW Diesel No. 50 someday?
You don't want to run 50. Trust me.
@@Hyce777 hahaha....fair enough.....I just love clutch....should've made my move during the 50th anniversary.
@@akaBoG come run peewee... 50 is the loudest thing in existence
@@Hyce777 will do! ❤️
Two things:
- I'm simple man. I see "That's straight piece of track. Give'er all the beans, Captain!" I press like 🤣
- I'm used to watch big old Eastern Europe Electric choo-choos. And every change in position of the throtle (pedal in this case) on them is always made with sounds of many contractors going brrrr to switch the motor cofiguration, resistors and other thingis. I was always wondering how it is made on trams (or trolleys as you guys in US saying) in a way, that nothing is heard from inside. Is a throttle pedal acting as a big potentiometer for motors to change the fields in windings or just control the overal voltage level or sth?
If it's like the other trolleys, it's picking how much voltage goes through resistors vs. the motors themselves. I'm not sure though!
There's a video of a different museum running and demonstrating a display of the pcc contactor system on youtube.
Hyce please come to the Minnesota transportation museum Jackson street roundhouse the last fully operating great northern roundhouse in Minnesota
Though it’s really located on Pennsylvania Ave.
The one thing a PCC car and the Geese have in common..
“What do I do with my hands?!”
Is this where I'm supposed to be a gatekeeper and say you haven't "really" run an electric trolley until you've experienced the quirkiness of a motorman's handle?
I saw this type of pedal control in the PCC cars in...er...Kenosha, WI, and figured it must have been a modification to be more similar to buses. Now I've leaned something!
Always wondered how they handled back up moves on museum PCCs and now I know.
If you notice on the classic green and white CTA cars they have those signature PCC portholes and that's because when the CTA retired the Green Hornets they shipped them back to St. Louis Car Company for reuse of components in building the new elevated cars. Additionally the Green Hornets almost got a second life in CTA service when the old Chicago Aurora & Elgin abruptly shut down in 58 there was talk of tearing out the transfer loops between the CTA and CAE and continued service by connecting the two lines and equipping PCC cars with third rail pick up shoes and air horns for open country running on the CAE's third rail system. Unfortunately the plan never came to be as Illinois government then as now is a ginormous clusterflop and by the time they got done diddling about the former ridership had moved to a one seat ride on the CNW, Burlington or Milwaukee Road and the CAE exists today as the Illinois Prarie Path.
And finally not only can you still ride one of the CTA Green Hornets out at IRM but if you drive a bit north of the state line you can ride them in ( and you're going to love this) Kenosha Wisconsin in an actual albeit limited public transport service as they purchased a number of retired Toronto PCC cars, retrucked them on some surplus CTA standard gauge trucks and painted them in liveries of various legendary PCC systems.
There yousif to be a tram that went from Chester NH to Derry NH in the 60s or 70s way before I was born
😎
Hyce, care to explain how an ES&DT pulpwood car ended up on MY railroad?
Man, I really kicked that one hard...
@@Hyce777 Or you've destroyed so many that there was a mix-up at the factory, who knows, if you get one that says "TB&RGW" on the side, we'll know for sure
@@Hyce777 Also how well would a 4-10-10-6 wheel arrangement work?
i saw lines liek a older style black + white show would have was that intentional or bad camera / memory corruption?
Somebody goofed.
okay
16:44 HAHAHAHAHAHA
As soon as Hyce started running the car, I thought "wait, what are you supposed to do with your hands?" And as it turns out...nothing. I would hate that, personally.
Does this ride go upside down?
Only once...
wait.. are you filming on FILM?
Nope... Someone fat fingered a goofy camera preset. Lol
The tryfecta Semmes like 3 phase
You look like you did some shaving. Is that for your friend's wedding?
PCC: Please Consider Crashing
Now a gas turbine.
Should have put a microphone on him, instead of relying on the camera one