Engines & Sonex Philosophy: Aerovee, Jabiru, UL Power, AeroMomentum, Corvair, Rotax Part # 2
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2021
- In Part # 2 of my interview with Mark Schaible, we discuss the Sonex design philosophy concerning current and future engines. Which engine is right for you?
👇👇 Timestamps and links below: 👇👇
👉Links:
Sonex Aircraft: www.sonexaircraft.com/
Sonex Engine Options:
www.sonexaircraft.com/engine-...
AeroMomentum Engines: aeromomentum.com/
Fly Corvair: flycorvair.net/
Arion/ Jabiru: www.flylightning.net/jabiru-en...
D-Motor: d-motor-usa.com/
Yamaha Release:
global.yamaha-motor.com/news/...
not discussed in this one, but MW Fly:
mwfly.it/en/
More on MOSAIC:
bydanjohnson.com/faas-propose...
⏰ Timestamps: ⏰
00:24 Design Philosophy
00:36 Kit Cost vs. Completion Cost
00:56 Certified Engines for a Sonex?
02:29 Experimental Engine Market
03:07 Yamaha Aircraft Engine
03:47 AeroMomentum and Sonex
05:25 Cowling Alt Engines
06:39 Corvair Compromises
07:46 Future Designs?
08:23 Proven Systems
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Much respect for Sonex's philosophy. Simplicity is vital. Air cooled, proven reliable, cost effective. Aerovee might be near perfect for those in the plains states. Still thinking an air cooled engine I assemble myself for much less money than the pre-assembled off the shelf engines yet has years of success would be just the ticket. If only it had six cylinders.... ;) I would accept dealing with the compromises of an extra 25lbs to achieve this.
Yup, I may have some parts for that 6 cylinder in my hangar at the moment. Not sure how I'll use them yet ..
Corvair has 6cyl.
The best part about Yamaha throwing their hat in the ring is that the homebuilders have done so much of the testing for them already. These snowmobile engine conversions have shown tremendous promise. Can't wait to see them give ROTAX a run for their money.
Yup, definitely looking forward to seeing what Yamaha comes out with. I personally think they could be at a lower price point than Rotax as well.
@@LeftSeatAdventures 100% agree
What would be nice if Yamaha can produce a turbocharged engine sell it at the 912 prices in the 20k range that would really hurt Rotax.
I'd like to see a Yamaha in a sonex... One of the conversions would be fine - hard to see what the total install cost would be though.
Embracing the Rotax 900 series engines is the single biggest thing Sonex has done to increase the acceptance, and resell value of their piston fleet.
So happy to see this.
Agreed, it's hard to argue with the fleet hours and safety record of the Rotax fleet. Can't wait to see what they come up with for the 912 going in the One Week Wonder build. Expecting new parts that'll streamline the process for the rest of us in the future.
I like that Sonex sticks with the Aerovee philosophy. people can choose something else if they like, but keeping it affordable and simple for others is important.
Yup, more power would be nice, but it's hard to argue with what the VW platform offers. $8-9k new for that versus $20+k for a Rotax or Jabiru. However, you can occasionally find deals on used engines.
@@LeftSeatAdventures Agreed. Currently pricing out an RV-7 with used engines. People freak out when I tell them I plan to use a used engine, but even a new engine is used after its first flight, and statistically newer engines are more likely to fail anyways. As long as you use them right, take care of them properly, and replace things that are worn or broken, they will be fine.
As a European I would go for a modern European engine. Rotax is the king, but over complex, and expensive. Despite the cost I think the basic UL260i would be superb in a Sonex. Fuel injection, FADEC, air cooling and direct drive at slightly lower RPM than a VW, so the prop can be more efficient. I like VW adaptions, but I think they all could be improved more. Develop a good sequential fuel injection system for them. Forget turbo. Is it possible to make a new crankshaft with integral prop flange ? I hope Aerovee are using nicer cylinder heads now than I have seen on a friend's Aerovee. The casting quality was not nice. Many airways in the cooling fins were blocked. The induction system looks like it could have smoother airflow with little difficulty in design or manufacture. Improve the Aerovee, and I would put it up there with UL.
All good points. The VW conversion could stand to have some upgrades. Revmaster is the only one I'm aware of with the extra oiled bearing on the crankshaft, you never hear about them snapping. They have electronic ignition and pm alternators (I personally had issues with both) but no fuel injection yet. Fit and finish can be better than others I've seen. I don't know how they're doing as a company, but the MW Fly engine looked interesting. Believe they were from Italy
Well done, thanks again for putting these together.
Absolutely! Next one up is probably going to be on Oshkosh '21 and the 2022 One Week Wonder. Probably the Subsonex and 2 place jet after that. And still more lol
The Aero Vee is less complex without a redrive, but there are certain penalty you have to pay for that. For a heavier engine installations, you can always design a larger plane or move the wing an inch forward. The Aero Momentum radiator only look draggy as it was shown right under the engine. I live in northern areas (Canada) and I had my moments freezing my rear end off in a leaky 172. So I appreciate water cooling with their superior heaters. There are lots of ways cooling drag can be reduced. The rad can be placed as part of the skin behind the seats, and if the pipe run is long enough, the heat loss at the pipe/hose will allow for smaller radiator. All I know is , as soon as I see Rotax , UL etc I know the airplane is likely not affordable for many. Rotax is a big company, with lots of overhead and share holders to pay for. They are also snail slow with tech advances and HP range. Some Rotax still use Carbs. and they are still maxed out at 141 HP.
All good points, thanks for sharing. Early rotax installs on say a Rans S7 had the radiator mounted below, now they mount them in the cowling. Guess it just takes time and development. A bigger, heavier Sonex than can utilize larger engines isn't out of the question at all, just have to see what they come out with. Either way the expense on many engines is definitely a barrier to entry. (Part of why I'm currently reading the Corvair conversion manual... 🤔)
It’ll be interesting to see the performance at high altitude if powered by a Rotax 914 or 915.
Agreed. Sonex is using a 912is for the One Week Wonder build, so that should lead to more direct parts and support for the Sonex builder as well.
slight correction wrt to his stated 912 fleet hours... the correct number is ~70 million hours (not "10s of thousands" ) :-) Indeed it is currently the most produced GA engine worldwide, and even now has a Chinese direct copy/knockoff.
Just a slight difference then lol. It'll be interesting to see how Sonex streamlines the Rotax installation for the One Week Wonder build.
What is the name of the knock off ? ? ?
What happened to the Pegasus 0-100? Where's the EAA. Anybody home.
Good question. The website doesn't appear to be working at the moment. Can't find much else on them either.
Does your Sonex have the Aerovee? Is that a aviation VW? My motorglider has a Limbach 1700EA, essentially 65 hp VW.
Cool. My Sonex has a Revmaster 2200 VW engine rated at 80hp. Similar to the Aerovee with some different design elements.
The AeroMomentim AM15 117 HP weighs 185 lbs. same as the AeroVee
They have 131hp version of that one with same weight
I wonder if the domed b can fit the rotax 915 turbo?
That would be a ton of fun. I guess it comes down to weight and cowling. Remember, Sonex aims to have the engine and accessories all under 200#. Revmaster engines didn't completely fit in the original Sonex cowling requiring bump outs and a ram air scoop on the front. Always possible to do the same with the 915.
@@LeftSeatAdventures the 915 is 180ish lbs if I’m not mistaken producing 141 hp so under the limit ….. hmmmm
I wish I could post a gif of Mr Burns doing his trademark, "Excellent." Time to start putting more money aside...
first of all good day. max speed 200 or 250 mph. range 1000 or 1200 miles. I want to build a 2 and 4 seat ultralight airplane. cost is not important. Can you do it? thanks.
Good day to you too! I guess it depends on how you define "ultralight." In the US, that is a no-go as Ultralight aircraft have a top speed limit. But there are US classified Experimentals that are considered Ultralights in other countries, so I would say someone local to you would have a better answer. Sonex piston aircraft have a Vne of 197mph, so right away that won't work for you. Good luck!
have a nice day. I want to build airplanes for which I write technical suggestions. What will it cost me? Please give an average number. Help. thanks.
@@mehmetvural8095 you might wanna take look at Blackshape Prime, Glassair III, Shark LSA, Swiss Risen Excellence, JMB VL3 915is, Tarragon, DarkAero 1.
I dont understand why people still use these old carburetted air cooled engines. Modern engines, especially small Japanese are far better in every way including reliability. So many issues with old engines that have been designed out in more modern engines. I think it is that people have little mechanical or electrical knowledge so they stick to the most basic. Smaller liquid cooled higher revving DOHC engines are under less stress than lower revving high displacement engines.
I think some people want to stick with what in there mind is the most simple. Less systems equal less points of failure. Some people want see a newer design well proven by others before they'll take the chance. The development of automotive conversion (or any new design) engines has not been without it's hiccups. And then some are in fact stuck in cognitive dissonance and will never except anything new. In the case of the Rotax 9 series, it's lighter, more efficient and a tighter tolerance design than legacy engines and has millions of proven flight hours. But I know people who still refuse to have anything to do with them. (Especially those w/ 30+ years of aviation mechanic experience.) In the end, go with the engine design you believe is best and prove it out, maybe you'll convince some holdouts.
Not a fan of Aerovee engines, I see too many fatalities and close calls due to Aerovee engine failures or loss of power here on RUclips (including the previous CEO of Sonex and a mechanic).
Luckily, there's multiple options to pick from too. My Sonex had the Revmaster version of the air cooled VW engine, and my honest opinion is that it was underpowered for the rising terrain where I reside. However, it was adequate in the flat lands at sea level. Sonexes are GREAT flying airplanes, my opinion based on my experience and weight is that at least 100HP is needed. Thanks for sharing!