Important note - at the end of the video, I say Sauron had no important military targets in the north...which makes zero sense considering I just made a video about the war in the north. I want to clarify that statement by saying I meant Eriador. Less important note - I usually use a lot of footage from Lord of the Rings Online, but I specifically avoided it in this video because I hate their version of Angmar. It couldn't be more opposite to how I pictured Angmar, and you'll never find me using it in any of my videos. Rant over.
@@legiohysterius4624 I think his reasoning is that Angmar in LOTRO looks more akin to Minas Morgul. There's no snow in the despite its neighbor, Forochel, being a mostly barren snow waste
That thumbnail is an upgrade 👌🏼 And quite recent I think. How did you stumble upon this channel? I did not see it listed in the community tabs of other lore video creators and commenters
I think you're onto something here. After all, the first thing Sauron did after the Siege of Angband was broken was find a new place to live further south.
Servant: My lord. why not send the Nazgul and a few thousand orcs and trolls to reclaim the ruined, abandoned fortress of Angmar? Sauron: Because I like to leave maneuvers like *that* to the dwarves.
I think Sauron would have had a plan to reoccupy Angmar, but it wasn’t a top priority. The priority was destroying Gondor, Rohan and Dale, and after that Lothlorien and the Wood Elves in Mirkwood, and the Dwarves of Erebor. After the fall of Gondor, Rohan and Dale, it’s likely that many surviving Men would have fled westward, over the Misty Mountains into Eriador. Once there, they would probably have tried to reestablish the lost realm of Arnor, which would become a kind of ‘Gondor in exile’. And it’s at that point when Sauron would want to reestablish Angmar as a base from which to attack them. So it’s something that would have happened if the Ring had never been found, or if it had remained in Gollum’s lair.
@@warbossgrimskull6095 it won't Amazon series will be about life of Isildur of what I know, so just Last days of Second Age, It won't skip through years but who knows what the future brings
@@warbossgrimskull6095 Amazon series appears to be either middle or late Second Age whereas Angmar doesn‘t play a role (doesn‘t exist) for the next 1500 to 3000 years, in the Third Age
When Angmar fell in 1975 TA, part of the Gondorian Army stayed for more than a year destroying all of the fortifications in the region lest they become reoccupied. Sauron was already diverting his attention back to Gondor and the Witch Kings arrival from Angmar in 1976 led to the reoccupation of Mordor. In TA 2000 the newly formed Army of Mordor with the Witchking at it's head attacked Minas Ithil and took it after a 2 year siege despite several Gondorian attempts to break it. So Sauron's forces were for a time much depleted. Re-occupying Angmar would have needed vast resources not only in men but also in materials. Angmar had been supplied from Eastern Tributaries for mercenaries and food. The Eotheod moved into the Upper Anduin Vales around TA 1980 and stayed there until Eorl led them away to what would become Rohan in TA 2510. The Dwarves of the North in the Grey Mountains, the Iron Hills and Erebor as well as, the Northman of Dale would also have interdicted any Supply lines going to Angmar. Smaug's arrival changed the balance of power and made re-occuping Angmar attractive but The War of the Dwarves and Orcs from 2793-2800 decimated the Orcish population who would have provided the bulk of any new Angmarim Army. The Orcs had recovered by 2941 but the death f Smaug and the defeat of the Orcs at the Battle of Five Armies put an end to any plans Sauron might have had concerning Angmar. smaug was a real concern for Gandalf as a winged fire drake could have been used to great effect in the north by Sauron.
I think Sauron might well have been interested in doing so at some point as it would have made a good place from which to attack Imladris. But after the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, the death of Smaug, and the Battle of the 5 Armies, he lacked any possible forces to make it achievable.
Ironically if Sauron had established a foothold in Eriador he'd have learned of the Shire much sooner and been able to find it much sooner. Of course depending on when that happened the Ring may never have come there.
this assumes the Dunedain & their elven allies don't harry any attempt by those forces to venture close to the shire, which they did when encountering bands of orcs / monsters / trolls in region as it was , not to mention breaking up any concentration of them with a direct assault after a build up of forces to break them apart, such as the assault on the trolls that resulted in the death of Arathorn iirc , before they could start to reach out into surrounding lands
@@Marcusjnmc yeah, but if he got that foothold in Angmar, he'd hear of the Shire sooner. The Nazgul managed to get past the Dunedain into the Shire in canon, they'd manage in this AU too.
My understanding is that Angmar had served its purpose and destroyed Arnor as a military threat. Holding it may have helped attack Rivendell from two sides, but Rivendell wasn’t really a fortress and the greater part of elves power had pretty much left middle-earth, which only left the kingdoms of men to worry about, mainly Arnor and Gondor. Arnor was pretty much destroyed and Gondor was reduced from three, to one great city. Sauron pretty much had won by the time of the war of the ring, yes he underestimated men in the first battle, but the cost was too much to absorb by the west and a second offensive would have resulted in victory, if he had not been baited by Gandalf at the black gate to strike early, then he would have won and most likely regained his ring.
Tolkien's setting having so much completely deserted land (Eriador, Rhovanion, Eregion...) is always both fascinating and strange. I think it's a good thing coz it leaves so much room for fanfiction and imagination! Can't imagine that fertile Cardolan and Eregion stayed barren wastelands for too long - even if they had been deforested by Men and Sauron.
Maybe it was to show that really all of the great days of civilization were well and truly in the past and that Tolkien’s setting was very much set in a Middle Earth not far away removed from say, Mad Max…
@@Crafty_Spirit LOL! Well yeah..essentially it is that too…A lot of these realms are fine lands for settlings but for the rumors of orcs showing themselves again and a shadow falling upon the land…it was a time of a nameless fear and so nobody really wanted to leave their village or their town and go out and live in the countryside because they would be vulnerable to attack from these unknown forces..
@@suryavajra Yes, that - and also the weirdly low fertility rates of Men in Middle-Earth... were they like not interested in sex or had impaired semen??
@@Crafty_Spirit right! It really feels that bleak…lol! One thing is if the movies are any guides to the visuals, what strikes me is, no farms outside the walls of Gondor…just vast empty fields…
Id agree... after the fall of Arnor and Lindon there was really no serious threat, Khazad Dum doors were now closed and Rivendell so far off and now so small of a military power without Gil Galad, Celebrimbor and the Numanoreans that he most like had lil thought of setting up Angmar. Sauron wanted Isenguard and to put his left tenant Mouth of Sauron there to rule...
Wow, a great answer to a question I hadn't even asked myself, nice! Also, do you think Sauron could have made a bargain with Smaug while he was still in Erebor? The movies hint at Smaug sensing the dark power rising again, but I don't remember any moment in the book where it's stated Smaug would ally himself with Sauron.
I actually doubt they would have been interested in an alliance, despite Gandalf's fears. Both are too haughty and would not trust the other. Smaug likely mocks the ringless Sauron, who he viewed as his equal at Sauron's height because both were servants of Morgoth, and Sauron despises this pale imitation of a "dragon". Sauron would attempt to use Smaug as a distraction, hoping someone would kill him so he doesn't have to go through the trouble himself, but a full alliance is probably out of the question. And Smaug would think Melkor's submissive bed warmer has no authority to command him.
@@IPlayWithFire135 That's fair. But now, I wonder if Smaug and Sauron knew each other back in the First Age. We don't really know how old Smaug is... Either way, like you say, they'd probably strike a deal similar to that of Sauron and Shelob: each minding their own business, as long as that business benefits them both.
It's kind of hinted that Sauron had the ability to draw all evil things to himself. I imagine this applies to Smaug. But a formal alliance might not have been necessary. Bilbo and the Dwarves provoked Smaug to attack Esgaroth without meaning to. Gandalf said Sauron might "use the Dragon to terrible effect." He or his messengers could have deceived Smaug and inspired him to assault various targets without winning the dragon's allegiance. A few slain Elves left on the doorstep of Erebor and some playacting orcs or men could have put it into Smaug's imagination that Rivendell or Mirkwood had sent theives to plunder the Mountain, provoking Smaug to an attack.
@@LeHobbitFan Smaug seems to have been born in the Third Age, as Gandalf describes him as being "young" when he sacked Erebor. If Gandalf is to believed, then that would mean Sauron and Smaug never met.
@@DarthGandalfYT Interesting, so maybe Sauron knew Smaug's parents or grandparents back in the day... "Oh, that's little Smaug for ya! Always running around, slaying dwarves and hoarding their ancesters' treasures, what a scamp!"
Angmars only strategic purpose was to destroy Arnor. This had been accomplished so it was no longer of any importance. Saurons focus had shifted to the destruction of Gondor and its allies in the south.
Here is a great question to ask. If there are Dragons in the far North could it be possible that some of the larger great dragons from the War of Wrath survived and migrated North where they would be far away from the certain wrath of the Valar and from there bred new generations of dragons which would lead to the current era such as Smaug? Could it be possible that these ancient great dragons of the ancient world could be out there still somewhere lurking and slumbering in or under the unknown land full of tempest blizzards and hoarfrost?
We know of cold dragons there... I don‘t believe fire breathing dragons would feel comfortable there! And if I remember correctly, Smaug was called the last of the larger fire breathing dragons
@@michelmorio8026 What do you think dragons need to survive? Blogger Michael Martinez posted a hypothesis that dragons actually need gold to survive in the long run, or at least to reach a certain strength...
@@Crafty_Spirit never heard of that theory, but it sounds very interesting! Tbh, I have no good guess 🤷🏻♂️ never really thought about before what special conditions they might need to thrive I don‘t know if gold or jewels are needed, but they definitely weren‘t an disadvantage when we look upon (book) Smaug, whose scales were protected with a layer of both through sleeping for decades on his treasures! Thinking about the large dragons of Morgoth in the First Age, I‘m not so sure if gold is actually needed! Never heard of immeasurable riches in his possession except the Silmarils
@@michelmorio8026 One idea is of Morgoth sustaining them, his essence concentrated in gold is a replacement that could feed the dragon, though weaker than the dragons of the First Age
the War of Dwarves and Orcs and the Battle of 5 Armies had so shattered the goblins of the misty mountains as a strategic force that they would never be considered a major threat going forward;
Hey man, I’ve been a viewer since you first started posting a couple years ago and I’m glad you decided to continue making videos, they are some of the best LOTR videos I’ve seen on RUclips and I hope you don’t stop. Also, since you’ve had plenty of topics regarding what if scenarios, do you have any plans for discussing what would have changed had Finarfin taken a more active role in anything?
I imagine he would at least try to retake Angmar leading up to the war of the ring, like he did with Ithillien. But the problem is, he didn't have the manpower to do so. Specifically, the goblins/orcs of the misty mountains and grey mountains that were killed in the battle of five armies. Sure, there were the Mordor orcs, but that's too far away to be effective.
It wouldn‘t be necessary... the dwarves of the Ered Luin care little for what is going on out there, as do the Hobbits... the Noldor & Sindar of Lindon are almost all gone in late Third Age by migration and Arnor or rather Eriador is almost completely depopulated... to get an army there and reconstruct Angmar would cost more then it would have an geo strategic effect Sauron’s obstacles are Gondor, Rohan, Lothlorien, Greenwood, Erebor & Dale... and they Are all in his reach from where he already positioned his troops! He only cared for Ithilien so the Haradrim and his Orc horses could move freely... and even that only lately in the conflict when he occupied the complete eastern bank
@@360Roko again... expansion to what? There is almost nothing in numbers! A few dozen Dunedain, a few hundred hobbits and Middle-men is nothing he has to be afraid of! He would have already the passes over the Misty Mountains, a way through Moria and the Gap of Rohan into the west and with the corsairs additionally the naval superiority which allows him to reach every point far in the west and built a beachhead wherever he wants to! Again, Angmar would be a massive waste of resources compared to what effect it might have
Well yesterday i finally wiped out Angmar in my Ered Luin campaign by killing Agandaur Overlord of Carn-Dum in open battle. Lost my faction Heir doing it. Gained the One Ring also !
Despite Gandalf's belief, I doubt Smaug would've joined anyways. He struck me as the 'I'm not interested in your petty wars, begone' kinda guy. Whereas Ancalagon and the lackeys of Morgoth obeyed without much question.
He rightly drew up his forces around Mt. Doom, whilst concentrating on reconnaisance and empowering his Nazgul. His successful beguilment of Saruman and Denethor highlights his true strengths. The power to usurp resistence, without open warfare. For Sauron, open battle was a last resort. For the west, it was their only resource.
I can understand why Sauron did not occupy Angmar, I've been there in Lord of the Rings Online and it's a bleak desolate place. Hardly any Humans to torment, no Elves to be found and even the Trolls and Goblins that live there are a bit apathetic. I can understand why the Dark Lord sent the Witchking in his stead to manage the place.
The men of numenor and the elves of lindon and the dwarves of moria would lay waste to Sauron easily if he went all Dark Lord, he had to approach them fair and earnest dismantling from within. In the 3rd Age he could go all Evil Fortress Of Doom this was because he had less opposition but also because he lost a lot of power in that Ring and could not walk as normal good looking bloke in world again
some of the minor sauron aligned forces of & around angmar were unleashed against the small towns like Bree after the Rangers moved south in force , but they were never a real threat to even those minor townships, there likely was some attempt to slowly build back up there over the years but no massive force could ever be amassed due to the active resistance of the Rangers
Reoccupying angmar would mean spreading his forces too thin without any need. Striking against gondor and erebor makes perfect sense because they were the main rival powers on his door step. Ive never understood the movies making it look like gandalf had no idea where mordor would strike next when its blatantly obvious that an invading force is going to strike the nearest threat first. The only places possible for mordor to strike was minas tirith and erebor and had sauron succeeded in taking gondor’s main cities and erebor and if saruman had taken helms deep and edoras then he probably would have turned his attention to mirkwood and lothlorien before retaking angmar and the north and then closed in on rivendell, the shire and the blue mountains. Its just plain obvious he would work in order of a) threat to his land, and b) distance.
Eriador's Numenórean kingdoms were all but destroyed in the war with Angmar, its cities abandoned and region depopulated. While there are elven and dwarve kingdoms there Sauron knows the elves are slowly departing Middle-Earth and their strength is much reduced from the second age and the dwarves are not a threat on their own. There is no strategic value in focusing his forces in Eiador when his main threat is found in Gondor (with possible support from Rohan and Lorien).
I do like Lord of the Rings Online's explanation that Angmar was basically being used to distract and keep the Rangers of the North involved so they couldn't rally to Aragorn's banner.
Great and interesting topic! I agree with you that he would have no real reason to focus on Eriador, especially when he was so close to break his real enemies outside of Eriador. Everything left in Eriador was only a former shadow of itself, and thus not much of a concern
Ha!!! I thought you wrote “Angband.” I was all: “um. Because it’s ducking under water! We’re talking about Sauron, not Prince Namor!!” 🤣 ANGMAR!!!! Ohhhhh. 😅
Great vid, just one thing to improve, the narration audio level was a little off, If you put a compressor on it (any free software has them) it will sound much more better with less low and Hi’s, looking forward to more vids!
Strategically unimportant, or, just not worth the resources in his view of circumstance. Sauron seldom won a battle through strategy, but he had a lot of bodies to throw.
One thing I have wondered, is how did the free peoples know Sauron wasn't hanging out in Angmar, during The War With Arnor? Because they didn't seem to take it as a serious threat for a long time, but like.. How did they know he wasn't back, turning Angmar into a new Barad-Dur in secret? Would they have sensed his return?
I always felt like sauron would have occupied Angmar given the chance if he had succeeded in stopping thorin retaking erebor. It's hard to know what saurons plans were but before the white council discovered him it seems he planned on building up his forces around middle earth. But after he was discovered it would be far too difficult but if he were to remain hidden I think it would have been a worthwhile venture much like his building of Dol Guldur
Sauron never resided in Angmar it was the Fortress of the Witchking and he was based in Minus Morgul so until they had secured the big population centres it would be a waste of resources and would have probably been handed to one of the lesser Nazgul or an unknown Black Numenorean as Mouth of Sauron has his eye on Isengard.
I'm not sure if this will really work as a what if theory but what if Thranduil had aided the Dwarves after Smaug's claiming of Erebor. I think this would have several different effects that could involve elf/dwarf relations, what happens in the five armies and perhaps more.
@@Marcusjnmc True, I mean if you look at the two elves in hobbit/lotr who were the fairest towards the Dwarves one is Galadriel who is fair to all the free peoples but also Elrond who is only half-elven but is tied to the noldor. On the other hand you have Thranduil who is a sindar ruling mostly silvan elves, putting aside the first age stuff their is still a more notable arrogance in Thranduil's folk compared to other elves.
He could've attacked the Shire and reclaimed the ring. I know he didn't know that it was in the Shire or that the Shire even exists, but if he'd known that, he'd probably have been able to gather enough strength by recalling orcs from the Misty Mountains to take the Shire and reclaim the ring without needing to capture Erebor. I suppose we see that his own ignorance and disregard for anything he doesn't consider important is one of his weaknesses and was on of the reasons for his eventual defeat.
The logistics of reoccupying Angmar are a huge problem for the Dark Lord if he's going to be gathering an army of Men there. There's enough "food" under Gundabad and the northern Misty Mountains for Orcs to survive on, maybe, but Angmar is too cold and too ruined to grow significant crops in. The country would have been able to be supplied overland from Sauron-dominated Rhun during the middle of the Third Age, with only Thranduil's Elves and the Dwarves of the Iron Hills to harry the wains, but toward the end of the Third Age any Quartermaster of Angmar would also have had Erebor, Lake-Town, any Men remaining in the upper vales of the Anduin, and the Beornings to worry about.
Why didn't sauron try to rebuild utumno in the Iron hills it would have been another stronghold in the north to attack the elves of mirkwood and the dwarves of the Iron hills from and it could have isolated the dwarves of the iron hills from the elves and the erebor. In the same time the forces stationed in dol guldur could have layed a bigger focus on loth lorien and the Easterling would hav another fortified position to rally there forces. In my opinion it would have made sauron forces more mobile and because of the great numbers advantage sauron had he wouldn't have to fear being defeated in detail. In my opinion it would have been an interesting idea and it would have opened a secure position to start an expedition to reclaim arnor and it would have made communicating and connecting with the forces in gundabard and the mysty mountains through the nordern waste lands more easy.
@@loveconqueror this could be a Problem maybe but im not shoure about it. Melkor could support his Armys before the Awakening of the Elves and untill his first Downfall too in this Region. and the Dwarves could suplie themselves too. it isnt imposible that the Elves providet the Food for the Dwarves via Trade but maybe such a asituation could be aranged betwen the Orks and the Easterlings or with the orks of gundabard or the Mysty mountains. and SPeaking of those factions they can supplie pretty big armysin desolate Areas too as shown during the War betwen the Dwarves and the Orks there were a number of pretty major Ork strongholds in the Mysty mountains were did they get there food from. because they didnt starve to death i assume that Orks dont need much food and can survive from a bit of foraging Fishing and maybe the Odd body of a Slayen foe. another Question is how big has the Rebuild Utumno be to be concidered a Thread. i think it only has to be big enough to not be Destreued by a coalition ot the Dwarves and Elves to be a Major thread because then the Northern free People couldnt Depleu all there Troops to defend one Point because of the Tread that the Troops of Utumno could sally out and destreu one of the Three fortresses of the Free People. therefor you dont need Much. even a big Raiding Party could do massive Damage in the Woodland realm as seen in Parts during the Hobbit and Gollums Rescue. Utumno in this Version would have the Same Rool as the Corsares in the war in the South. not a Massiv Force but a Force stron enough to pose a Thread that cant be ignored.
you missed one other reason. The witch king was his most powerful servant. when sauron was in hiding he could let the witchking run things but by the end of the 3rd age sauron had other plans and for that he needed his chief agent to attack bigger targets, like gondor
i feel he would have tried if the war in the north was being won in the east and he had more of an opening but even than it would have been more of an guard posting to keep people using that gap to sneak or flee across those passages
Hello friend, can you make a video which shows an alternate timeline where Morgoth wins in the first Age,that would be challenging yet a great topic to mention Thanks
Angmar was initially occupied due to the division in Arnor and the opportunity it presented to bring down the Northern Kingdom. This seems to have been its only useful purpose. The Men of the West were thereafter scattered and not much of a threat.
I believe your right in it being not worth the effort but you seem to forget the misty mountains from Moria to Gundabad at least are inhabited by orcs and they have dug tunnels everywhere. It would probably have been very easy to send forces to reoccupy angmar by going through the misty mountains but then as you point out they would have to start from scratch. Also this potential population would have to come from somewhere and the only ones who could populate it are the orcs of the misty mountains whose population was decimated during their war with the dwarves and later the battle of the five armies. So, sending anyone their would be stretching thin their already low amount of numbers.
I don’t know if the lore in this video is 100% cannon. Angmar basically is in the misty mountains and it has such an evil history there are surly a few tribes of orcs or other foul evil drawn there. The place isn’t crawling with orcs like Mordor to where there are massive armies but I wouldn’t want to go to Angmar. I believe the rangers do fight orcs in Eridor would be shocked if no trolls or orcs lived in Angmar.
Mods and video games use black Numenoreana and nearly restored Angmar concepts so much non lore masters can be forgiven to mistake that Tolkien had a restored Angmar or higher use of black numenoreans. Of which mean mods for many games as well as many fanfiction games love exploring.
I think he could have sent a small party of orcs to reclaim it for themselves, and then repopulate. I don't know if that would have worked no matter how many parties he would send out.
The orcs we see in LOTR are a fairly uncooperative bunch who need a very firm ruling hand--whether Sauron, his main lieutenants, the Nasgul, or Saruman. They fight among one another and indeed would just as soon knife another orc as follow orders to attack the enemy. Sauron undoubtedly knew he couldn't count on them so far away, unless he sent a number of Nasgul with them to keep order--and he needed those closer to Mordor. The orcs wouldn't last more than a few years in Angmar, I think. Sauron was able to control the minds of his forces close to him, but it's not clear if he could do that as effectively so far away in Angmar. It is clear that his attention was mainly focused on safeguarding Mordor and plotting against Gondor and Rohan, plus manipulating Saruman.--oh, and, of course, seeking any hint of the Ring. Beyond that, he either left areas for later attention (e.g., Dale) or didn't bother to find out about who or what was there (e.g., the Shire).
The only way Sauron could establish any kind of foothold in the north after the war of dwarves and orcs and long after the angmar war is If Sauron wanted to ally with marauders, Bandits, raiders and other itinerant criminal vagabonds. And that's hoping they don't just slaughter the couple hundred orcs envoy. And losing their own men. Losing both way numbers to confirm enmity and gaining nothing. Except some bandit with a stone knife acquiring a sharp orc metal sword. And doing the Dunedain's work. Honestly there's no other population other than immigrant Dunlending ruffians for Sauron to rely on. And at that point most Dunlendings are in Dunland not criminal immigrants minority that they are in Eriador. What force other than a 4 thousand strong unified army of bandit gangs who otherwise kill each other could Sauron rely on?
I have a question for Community: What if an Army of Orcs of Gundabad and Dol Guldur, led by Bolg and Azog, who was managed to attack Erebor, was instead sent to Carn Dûm by Sauron? And what if Sauron emptied entire Gundabad and Dol Guldur, and all of Orcs from Gundabad and Dol Guldur, together with Azog and Bolg was sent to Carn Dûm to Reclaim Kingdom of Angmar? You have on mind that army of Sauron at the Battle of a five Armies was Big... (According to informations from Google army of Orcs and War Beasts who attacked Erebor was this strong: 75,000 Orcs of Dol Guldur, 5,000 Goblin Mercenaries from Misty Mountains, 800 Ogres, 500 Cave Trolls, Olog - Hai, 50,000 Orcs of Mount Gundabad, 2,500 Bats of Gundabad...) And to complicate things even more, what if Sauron emptied Goblin town, and sent all goblins (who were now without king who was killed by fellowship of dwarves) to reinforce Armies of Gundabad and Dol Guldur in Angmar. You Have on mind that Gundabad and Dol Guldur wasn't completely emptied before Battle of Five Armies, At Gundabad were At Least 50,000 More Orcs (my opinion). Same with the Dol Guldur. Also, as you had the opportunity to see in the movie, Goblin Town was Crowded with Goblins. And Now, what if all that was sent to Regain and Rebuild Angmar? I waiting for your Answer. :)
I think you're referring to the films here, because the numbers are clearly different in the books and Azog already died in a previous war. In the films the armies, that were supposed to reconquer and defend Angmar got annihilated and we can infer that Gundabad couldn't afford a war. It still makes sense, that Sauron shifts his priorities to Mordor.
Call of duty doesn't work. It's trash and has been for years. Unfortunately people will keep buying it every year because they refuse to see the facts. Cod is copy and paste bullshit. The franchise is a joke. A fresh coat of paint and a handful of recycled or reworked features are the only real changes made every year. Why people dont see this is something I will never understand.
The logistics of reoccupying Angmar are a huge problem for the Dark Lord if he's going to be gathering an army of Men there. There's enough "food" under Gundabad and the northern Misty Mountains for Orcs to survive on, maybe, but Angmar is too cold and too ruined to grow significant crops in. The country would have been able to be supplied overland from Sauron-dominated Rhun during the middle of the Third Age, with only Thranduil's Elves and the Dwarves of the Iron Hills to harry the wains, but toward the end of the Third Age any Quartermaster of Angmar would also have had Erebor, Lake-Town, any Men remaining in the upper vales of the Anduin, and the Beornings to worry about.
Important note - at the end of the video, I say Sauron had no important military targets in the north...which makes zero sense considering I just made a video about the war in the north. I want to clarify that statement by saying I meant Eriador.
Less important note - I usually use a lot of footage from Lord of the Rings Online, but I specifically avoided it in this video because I hate their version of Angmar. It couldn't be more opposite to how I pictured Angmar, and you'll never find me using it in any of my videos. Rant over.
Whats so bad about it?
@@legiohysterius4624 I think his reasoning is that Angmar in LOTRO looks more akin to Minas Morgul. There's no snow in the despite its neighbor, Forochel, being a mostly barren snow waste
Really that sucks
I really enjoy LOTRO but I also feel like they missed with Angmar. I think it should have been much colder.
My goodness there is anyone...we so need to team up...
The truth is that after spending interminable ages alone in Angband, Sauron has come to hate cold weather.
That thumbnail is an upgrade 👌🏼 And quite recent I think.
How did you stumble upon this channel? I did not see it listed in the community tabs of other lore video creators and commenters
I think you're onto something here. After all, the first thing Sauron did after the Siege of Angband was broken was find a new place to live further south.
"I hate snow!" - Sauron, probably
Lol! I love cold weather! :D
Shit then I’m safe in Wisconsin then seriously tho fuck the changing weather and the cold here it suuuuucks more than leeches at a gay beach party
Servant: My lord. why not send the Nazgul and a few thousand orcs and trolls to reclaim the ruined, abandoned fortress of Angmar?
Sauron: Because I like to leave maneuvers like *that* to the dwarves.
I think Sauron would have had a plan to reoccupy Angmar, but it wasn’t a top priority. The priority was destroying Gondor, Rohan and Dale, and after that Lothlorien and the Wood Elves in Mirkwood, and the Dwarves of Erebor.
After the fall of Gondor, Rohan and Dale, it’s likely that many surviving Men would have fled westward, over the Misty Mountains into Eriador. Once there, they would probably have tried to reestablish the lost realm of Arnor, which would become a kind of ‘Gondor in exile’.
And it’s at that point when Sauron would want to reestablish Angmar as a base from which to attack them. So it’s something that would have happened if the Ring had never been found, or if it had remained in Gollum’s lair.
I just imagine sauron with an EU4/other rp rpg kind of mission tree with an "Reclaiming Angmar" sidemision
Gods bless you for this video, Angmar is often missed by Tolkien's fans but it plays a very important role and I think it deserves more
Aye I hope the amazon series does a season on it
@@warbossgrimskull6095 it won't Amazon series will be about life of Isildur of what I know, so just Last days of Second Age,
It won't skip through years but who knows what the future brings
@@warbossgrimskull6095 Amazon series appears to be either middle or late Second Age whereas Angmar doesn‘t play a role (doesn‘t exist) for the next 1500 to 3000 years, in the Third Age
@@michelmorio8026 I know, but I was hoping they would fast forward in time to the year of angmars rise
@Mark Sheymus What does that even mean? There's gonna be a gay elf and you're gonna lose your mind over it?
When Angmar fell in 1975 TA, part of the Gondorian Army stayed for more than a year destroying all of the fortifications in the region lest they become reoccupied. Sauron was already diverting his attention back to Gondor and the Witch Kings arrival from Angmar in 1976 led to the reoccupation of Mordor. In TA 2000 the newly formed Army of Mordor with the Witchking at it's head attacked Minas Ithil and took it after a 2 year siege despite several Gondorian attempts to break it. So Sauron's forces were for a time much depleted. Re-occupying Angmar would have needed vast resources not only in men but also in materials. Angmar had been supplied from Eastern Tributaries for mercenaries and food. The Eotheod moved into the Upper Anduin Vales around TA 1980 and stayed there until Eorl led them away to what would become Rohan in TA 2510. The Dwarves of the North in the Grey Mountains, the Iron Hills and Erebor as well as, the Northman of Dale would also have interdicted any Supply lines going to Angmar. Smaug's arrival changed the balance of power and made re-occuping Angmar attractive but The War of the Dwarves and Orcs from 2793-2800 decimated the Orcish population who would have provided the bulk of any new Angmarim Army. The Orcs had recovered by 2941 but the death f Smaug and the defeat of the Orcs at the Battle of Five Armies put an end to any plans Sauron might have had concerning Angmar. smaug was a real concern for Gandalf as a winged fire drake could have been used to great effect in the north by Sauron.
Angmar had already fulfilled its purpose in destroying the Kingdom of Arnor.
I think Sauron might well have been interested in doing so at some point as it would have made a good place from which to attack Imladris. But after the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, the death of Smaug, and the Battle of the 5 Armies, he lacked any possible forces to make it achievable.
Ironically if Sauron had established a foothold in Eriador he'd have learned of the Shire much sooner and been able to find it much sooner. Of course depending on when that happened the Ring may never have come there.
It is likely he would have won if he had reach in all of ME.
this assumes the Dunedain & their elven allies don't harry any attempt by those forces to venture close to the shire, which they did when encountering bands of orcs / monsters / trolls in region as it was , not to mention breaking up any concentration of them with a direct assault after a build up of forces to break them apart, such as the assault on the trolls that resulted in the death of Arathorn iirc , before they could start to reach out into surrounding lands
@@Marcusjnmc yeah, but if he got that foothold in Angmar, he'd hear of the Shire sooner. The Nazgul managed to get past the Dunedain into the Shire in canon, they'd manage in this AU too.
My understanding is that Angmar had served its purpose and destroyed Arnor as a military threat. Holding it may have helped attack Rivendell from two sides, but Rivendell wasn’t really a fortress and the greater part of elves power had pretty much left middle-earth, which only left the kingdoms of men to worry about, mainly Arnor and Gondor. Arnor was pretty much destroyed and Gondor was reduced from three, to one great city. Sauron pretty much had won by the time of the war of the ring, yes he underestimated men in the first battle, but the cost was too much to absorb by the west and a second offensive would have resulted in victory, if he had not been baited by Gandalf at the black gate to strike early, then he would have won and most likely regained his ring.
Tolkien's setting having so much completely deserted land (Eriador, Rhovanion, Eregion...) is always both fascinating and strange. I think it's a good thing coz it leaves so much room for fanfiction and imagination! Can't imagine that fertile Cardolan and Eregion stayed barren wastelands for too long - even if they had been deforested by Men and Sauron.
Maybe it was to show that really all of the great days of civilization were well and truly in the past and that Tolkien’s setting was very much set in a Middle Earth not far away removed from say, Mad Max…
@@suryavajra More often it is compared to the early Middle Ages in Europe, but the Mad Max comparison made me smirk 😁
@@Crafty_Spirit LOL! Well yeah..essentially it is that too…A lot of these realms are fine lands for settlings but for the rumors of orcs showing themselves again and a shadow falling upon the land…it was a time of a nameless fear and so nobody really wanted to leave their village or their town and go out and live in the countryside because they would be vulnerable to attack from these unknown forces..
@@suryavajra Yes, that - and also the weirdly low fertility rates of Men in Middle-Earth... were they like not interested in sex or had impaired semen??
@@Crafty_Spirit right! It really feels that bleak…lol! One thing is if the movies are any guides to the visuals, what strikes me is, no farms outside the walls of Gondor…just vast empty fields…
Id agree...
after the fall of Arnor and Lindon there was really no serious threat, Khazad Dum doors were now closed and Rivendell so far off and now so small of a military power without Gil Galad, Celebrimbor and the Numanoreans that he most like had lil thought of setting up Angmar. Sauron wanted Isenguard and to put his left tenant Mouth of Sauron there to rule...
Does anyone else just absolutely love the name Agandaur? It's easily top 10 favorite names in LOTR, Adunaic is such a cool sounding language
Wow, a great answer to a question I hadn't even asked myself, nice!
Also, do you think Sauron could have made a bargain with Smaug while he was still in Erebor? The movies hint at Smaug sensing the dark power rising again, but I don't remember any moment in the book where it's stated Smaug would ally himself with Sauron.
I actually doubt they would have been interested in an alliance, despite Gandalf's fears. Both are too haughty and would not trust the other. Smaug likely mocks the ringless Sauron, who he viewed as his equal at Sauron's height because both were servants of Morgoth, and Sauron despises this pale imitation of a "dragon".
Sauron would attempt to use Smaug as a distraction, hoping someone would kill him so he doesn't have to go through the trouble himself, but a full alliance is probably out of the question. And Smaug would think Melkor's submissive bed warmer has no authority to command him.
@@IPlayWithFire135 That's fair. But now, I wonder if Smaug and Sauron knew each other back in the First Age. We don't really know how old Smaug is...
Either way, like you say, they'd probably strike a deal similar to that of Sauron and Shelob: each minding their own business, as long as that business benefits them both.
It's kind of hinted that Sauron had the ability to draw all evil things to himself. I imagine this applies to Smaug. But a formal alliance might not have been necessary. Bilbo and the Dwarves provoked Smaug to attack Esgaroth without meaning to. Gandalf said Sauron might "use the Dragon to terrible effect." He or his messengers could have deceived Smaug and inspired him to assault various targets without winning the dragon's allegiance. A few slain Elves left on the doorstep of Erebor and some playacting orcs or men could have put it into Smaug's imagination that Rivendell or Mirkwood had sent theives to plunder the Mountain, provoking Smaug to an attack.
@@LeHobbitFan Smaug seems to have been born in the Third Age, as Gandalf describes him as being "young" when he sacked Erebor. If Gandalf is to believed, then that would mean Sauron and Smaug never met.
@@DarthGandalfYT Interesting, so maybe Sauron knew Smaug's parents or grandparents back in the day... "Oh, that's little Smaug for ya! Always running around, slaying dwarves and hoarding their ancesters' treasures, what a scamp!"
Angmars only strategic purpose was to destroy Arnor. This had been accomplished so it was no longer of any importance. Saurons focus had shifted to the destruction of Gondor and its allies in the south.
Loving this channel.
I love the explanation of the timeline and how you weigh the pro's and con's. Very nice.
Here is a great question to ask.
If there are Dragons in the far North could it be possible that some of the larger great dragons from the War of Wrath survived and migrated North where they would be far away from the certain wrath of the Valar and from there bred new generations of dragons which would lead to the current era such as Smaug?
Could it be possible that these ancient great dragons of the ancient world could be out there still somewhere lurking and slumbering in or under the unknown land full of tempest blizzards and hoarfrost?
We know of cold dragons there... I don‘t believe fire breathing dragons would feel comfortable there! And if I remember correctly, Smaug was called the last of the larger fire breathing dragons
@@michelmorio8026 What do you think dragons need to survive? Blogger Michael Martinez posted a hypothesis that dragons actually need gold to survive in the long run, or at least to reach a certain strength...
@@Crafty_Spirit never heard of that theory, but it sounds very interesting!
Tbh, I have no good guess 🤷🏻♂️ never really thought about before what special conditions they might need to thrive
I don‘t know if gold or jewels are needed, but they definitely weren‘t an disadvantage when we look upon (book) Smaug, whose scales were protected with a layer of both through sleeping for decades on his treasures!
Thinking about the large dragons of Morgoth in the First Age, I‘m not so sure if gold is actually needed! Never heard of immeasurable riches in his possession except the Silmarils
@@michelmorio8026 One idea is of Morgoth sustaining them, his essence concentrated in gold is a replacement that could feed the dragon, though weaker than the dragons of the First Age
It's worth noting that we don't actually know how long Dragons could live for as no known Dragons actually die a natural death.
Excellent theory.
After the defeat of the Numenorians in the North, it had become a side-show. The elves living in the north were moving out anyway.
I really love your style in portraying of the events in which you present your content. Great job . Can't wait for your next video
the whole angmar witch King story would be so good to see on the big screen that and the war of wrath 😊
the War of Dwarves and Orcs and the Battle of 5 Armies had so shattered the goblins of the misty mountains as a strategic force that they would never be considered a major threat going forward;
Hey man, I’ve been a viewer since you first started posting a couple years ago and I’m glad you decided to continue making videos, they are some of the best LOTR videos I’ve seen on RUclips and I hope you don’t stop. Also, since you’ve had plenty of topics regarding what if scenarios, do you have any plans for discussing what would have changed had Finarfin taken a more active role in anything?
I imagine he would at least try to retake Angmar leading up to the war of the ring, like he did with Ithillien. But the problem is, he didn't have the manpower to do so. Specifically, the goblins/orcs of the misty mountains and grey mountains that were killed in the battle of five armies. Sure, there were the Mordor orcs, but that's too far away to be effective.
It wouldn‘t be necessary... the dwarves of the Ered Luin care little for what is going on out there, as do the Hobbits... the Noldor & Sindar of Lindon are almost all gone in late Third Age by migration and Arnor or rather Eriador is almost completely depopulated... to get an army there and reconstruct Angmar would cost more then it would have an geo strategic effect
Sauron’s obstacles are Gondor, Rohan, Lothlorien, Greenwood, Erebor & Dale... and they Are all in his reach from where he already positioned his troops!
He only cared for Ithilien so the Haradrim and his Orc horses could move freely... and even that only lately in the conflict when he occupied the complete eastern bank
@@michelmorio8026 Yes, but if we assume Sauron wins, having Angmar would be convinient for his further expansion to the West.
@@360Roko again... expansion to what? There is almost nothing in numbers! A few dozen Dunedain, a few hundred hobbits and Middle-men is nothing he has to be afraid of! He would have already the passes over the Misty Mountains, a way through Moria and the Gap of Rohan into the west and with the corsairs additionally the naval superiority which allows him to reach every point far in the west and built a beachhead wherever he wants to!
Again, Angmar would be a massive waste of resources compared to what effect it might have
@@michelmorio8026 I really like your comments (also under other videos), they have a consistent logic
@@Crafty_Spirit thanks mate
Well yesterday i finally wiped out Angmar in my Ered Luin campaign by killing Agandaur Overlord of Carn-Dum in open battle.
Lost my faction Heir doing it.
Gained the One Ring also !
That is a kingly gift!
@@AlyssMa7rin Much better than being a Princely sum !
Despite Gandalf's belief, I doubt Smaug would've joined anyways. He struck me as the 'I'm not interested in your petty wars, begone' kinda guy. Whereas Ancalagon and the lackeys of Morgoth obeyed without much question.
Wonderful insight. Great video
Awesome job Mellon. Keep up the great work. You are great
He rightly drew up his forces around Mt. Doom, whilst concentrating on reconnaisance and empowering his Nazgul. His successful beguilment of Saruman and Denethor highlights his true strengths. The power to usurp resistence, without open warfare. For Sauron, open battle was a last resort. For the west, it was their only resource.
I can understand why Sauron did not occupy Angmar, I've been there in Lord of the Rings Online and it's a bleak desolate place. Hardly any Humans to torment, no Elves to be found and even the Trolls and Goblins that live there are a bit apathetic. I can understand why the Dark Lord sent the Witchking in his stead to manage the place.
The men of numenor and the elves of lindon and the dwarves of moria would lay waste to Sauron easily if he went all Dark Lord, he had to approach them fair and earnest dismantling from within. In the 3rd Age he could go all Evil Fortress Of Doom this was because he had less opposition but also because he lost a lot of power in that Ring and could not walk as normal good looking bloke in world again
some of the minor sauron aligned forces of & around angmar were unleashed against the small towns like Bree after the Rangers moved south in force , but they were never a real threat to even those minor townships, there likely was some attempt to slowly build back up there over the years but no massive force could ever be amassed due to the active resistance of the Rangers
Reoccupying angmar would mean spreading his forces too thin without any need. Striking against gondor and erebor makes perfect sense because they were the main rival powers on his door step. Ive never understood the movies making it look like gandalf had no idea where mordor would strike next when its blatantly obvious that an invading force is going to strike the nearest threat first. The only places possible for mordor to strike was minas tirith and erebor and had sauron succeeded in taking gondor’s main cities and erebor and if saruman had taken helms deep and edoras then he probably would have turned his attention to mirkwood and lothlorien before retaking angmar and the north and then closed in on rivendell, the shire and the blue mountains. Its just plain obvious he would work in order of a) threat to his land, and b) distance.
Eriador's Numenórean kingdoms were all but destroyed in the war with Angmar, its cities abandoned and region depopulated. While there are elven and dwarve kingdoms there Sauron knows the elves are slowly departing Middle-Earth and their strength is much reduced from the second age and the dwarves are not a threat on their own. There is no strategic value in focusing his forces in Eiador when his main threat is found in Gondor (with possible support from Rohan and Lorien).
Great lore video!
This is a very underrated middle earth channel top marks
I do like Lord of the Rings Online's explanation that Angmar was basically being used to distract and keep the Rangers of the North involved so they couldn't rally to Aragorn's banner.
Great and interesting topic! I agree with you that he would have no real reason to focus on Eriador, especially when he was so close to break his real enemies outside of Eriador. Everything left in Eriador was only a former shadow of itself, and thus not much of a concern
Ha!!! I thought you wrote “Angband.”
I was all: “um. Because it’s ducking under water! We’re talking about Sauron, not Prince Namor!!”
🤣
ANGMAR!!!! Ohhhhh.
😅
Great vid, just one thing to improve, the narration audio level was a little off, If you put a compressor on it (any free software has them) it will sound much more better with less low and Hi’s, looking forward to more vids!
Strategically unimportant, or, just not worth the resources in his view of circumstance. Sauron seldom won a battle through strategy, but he had a lot of bodies to throw.
One thing I have wondered, is how did the free peoples know Sauron wasn't hanging out in Angmar, during The War With Arnor? Because they didn't seem to take it as a serious threat for a long time, but like.. How did they know he wasn't back, turning Angmar into a new Barad-Dur in secret? Would they have sensed his return?
Thanks !!!
I always felt like sauron would have occupied Angmar given the chance if he had succeeded in stopping thorin retaking erebor. It's hard to know what saurons plans were but before the white council discovered him it seems he planned on building up his forces around middle earth. But after he was discovered it would be far too difficult but if he were to remain hidden I think it would have been a worthwhile venture much like his building of Dol Guldur
My guess is that Sauron just have a lot of bad memories of how many times his ass got kicked in that place.
Sauron never resided in Angmar it was the Fortress of the Witchking and he was based in Minus Morgul so until they had secured the big population centres it would be a waste of resources and would have probably been handed to one of the lesser Nazgul or an unknown Black Numenorean as Mouth of Sauron has his eye on Isengard.
I'm not sure if this will really work as a what if theory but what if Thranduil had aided the Dwarves after Smaug's claiming of Erebor. I think this would have several different effects that could involve elf/dwarf relations, what happens in the five armies and perhaps more.
none of Doriath's folk ever much trusted Dwarves after the first age , & that heritage no doubt had a great influence upon Thranduil's court
@@Marcusjnmc True, I mean if you look at the two elves in hobbit/lotr who were the fairest towards the Dwarves one is Galadriel who is fair to all the free peoples but also Elrond who is only half-elven but is tied to the noldor. On the other hand you have Thranduil who is a sindar ruling mostly silvan elves, putting aside the first age stuff their is still a more notable arrogance in Thranduil's folk compared to other elves.
Very interesting. Thanks
Rivendell doesn't have much military importance but Elrond does have a ring of power which Sauron likely suspects.
He could've attacked the Shire and reclaimed the ring. I know he didn't know that it was in the Shire or that the Shire even exists, but if he'd known that, he'd probably have been able to gather enough strength by recalling orcs from the Misty Mountains to take the Shire and reclaim the ring without needing to capture Erebor.
I suppose we see that his own ignorance and disregard for anything he doesn't consider important is one of his weaknesses and was on of the reasons for his eventual defeat.
Dude I never thought of this
The logistics of reoccupying Angmar are a huge problem for the Dark Lord if he's going to be gathering an army of Men there. There's enough "food" under Gundabad and the northern Misty Mountains for Orcs to survive on, maybe, but Angmar is too cold and too ruined to grow significant crops in. The country would have been able to be supplied overland from Sauron-dominated Rhun during the middle of the Third Age, with only Thranduil's Elves and the Dwarves of the Iron Hills to harry the wains, but toward the end of the Third Age any Quartermaster of Angmar would also have had Erebor, Lake-Town, any Men remaining in the upper vales of the Anduin, and the Beornings to worry about.
Why didn't sauron try to rebuild utumno in the Iron hills it would have been another stronghold in the north to attack the elves of mirkwood and the dwarves of the Iron hills from and it could have isolated the dwarves of the iron hills from the elves and the erebor. In the same time the forces stationed in dol guldur could have layed a bigger focus on loth lorien and the Easterling would hav another fortified position to rally there forces. In my opinion it would have made sauron forces more mobile and because of the great numbers advantage sauron had he wouldn't have to fear being defeated in detail. In my opinion it would have been an interesting idea and it would have opened a secure position to start an expedition to reclaim arnor and it would have made communicating and connecting with the forces in gundabard and the mysty mountains through the nordern waste lands more easy.
not enough resources around
@@loveconqueror
this could be a Problem maybe but im not shoure about it. Melkor could support his Armys before the Awakening of the Elves and untill his first Downfall too in this Region. and the Dwarves could suplie themselves too. it isnt imposible that the Elves providet the Food for the Dwarves via Trade but maybe such a asituation could be aranged betwen the Orks and the Easterlings or with the orks of gundabard or the Mysty mountains. and SPeaking of those factions they can supplie pretty big armysin desolate Areas too as shown during the War betwen the Dwarves and the Orks there were a number of pretty major Ork strongholds in the Mysty mountains were did they get there food from. because they didnt starve to death i assume that Orks dont need much food and can survive from a bit of foraging Fishing and maybe the Odd body of a Slayen foe. another Question is how big has the Rebuild Utumno be to be concidered a Thread. i think it only has to be big enough to not be Destreued by a coalition ot the Dwarves and Elves to be a Major thread because then the Northern free People couldnt Depleu all there Troops to defend one Point because of the Tread that the Troops of Utumno could sally out and destreu one of the Three fortresses of the Free People. therefor you dont need Much. even a big Raiding Party could do massive Damage in the Woodland realm as seen in Parts during the Hobbit and Gollums Rescue.
Utumno in this Version would have the Same Rool as the Corsares in the war in the South. not a Massiv Force but a Force stron enough to pose a Thread that cant be ignored.
you missed one other reason. The witch king was his most powerful servant. when sauron was in hiding he could let the witchking run things but by the end of the 3rd age sauron had other plans and for that he needed his chief agent to attack bigger targets, like gondor
i feel he would have tried if the war in the north was being won in the east and he had more of an opening but even than it would have been more of an guard posting to keep people using that gap to sneak or flee across those passages
Cause the witch king did it off the clock
Hello friend, can you make a video which shows an alternate timeline where Morgoth wins in the first Age,that would be challenging yet a great topic to mention
Thanks
It was too damn cold!!!
Angmar was initially occupied due to the division in Arnor and the opportunity it presented to bring down the Northern Kingdom. This seems to have been its only useful purpose. The Men of the West were thereafter scattered and not much of a threat.
I believe your right in it being not worth the effort but you seem to forget the misty mountains from Moria to Gundabad at least are inhabited by orcs and they have dug tunnels everywhere. It would probably have been very easy to send forces to reoccupy angmar by going through the misty mountains but then as you point out they would have to start from scratch. Also this potential population would have to come from somewhere and the only ones who could populate it are the orcs of the misty mountains whose population was decimated during their war with the dwarves and later the battle of the five armies. So, sending anyone their would be stretching thin their already low amount of numbers.
I don’t know if the lore in this video is 100% cannon. Angmar basically is in the misty mountains and it has such an evil history there are surly a few tribes of orcs or other foul evil drawn there. The place isn’t crawling with orcs like Mordor to where there are massive armies but I wouldn’t want to go to Angmar. I believe the rangers do fight orcs in Eridor would be shocked if no trolls or orcs lived in Angmar.
Battle for Middle-Earth II: Rise of the Witch King
He'd be spreading his forces too thin and doing so wouldn't be able to have been done covertly!
Sauron managed to attack Erebor and Dale, Lothlorien and Rivendale when he wished, from the south or east. He did not need to rebuild Angmar.
Short answer: he didn't need to. The Kingdom of Arnor was very thoroughly destroyed.
Interesting video,
Lotro Angmar is creepy
angmar before it fell , would have been a threat even to mordor
Mods and video games use black Numenoreana and nearly restored Angmar concepts so much non lore masters can be forgiven to mistake that Tolkien had a restored Angmar or higher use of black numenoreans. Of which mean mods for many games as well as many fanfiction games love exploring.
Angmarian here: we were better off with him.
Why Sauron never reclaim Angmar? Because plot ...
I don't think elves from lothlorien would attack angmar. It's too far away. With that caveat your logic I think works
I think he could have sent a small party of orcs to reclaim it for themselves, and then repopulate. I don't know if that would have worked no matter how many parties he would send out.
The orcs we see in LOTR are a fairly uncooperative bunch who need a very firm ruling hand--whether Sauron, his main lieutenants, the Nasgul, or Saruman. They fight among one another and indeed would just as soon knife another orc as follow orders to attack the enemy. Sauron undoubtedly knew he couldn't count on them so far away, unless he sent a number of Nasgul with them to keep order--and he needed those closer to Mordor. The orcs wouldn't last more than a few years in Angmar, I think. Sauron was able to control the minds of his forces close to him, but it's not clear if he could do that as effectively so far away in Angmar. It is clear that his attention was mainly focused on safeguarding Mordor and plotting against Gondor and Rohan, plus manipulating Saruman.--oh, and, of course, seeking any hint of the Ring. Beyond that, he either left areas for later attention (e.g., Dale) or didn't bother to find out about who or what was there (e.g., the Shire).
i am INDIAN now 😎
Why would i when i can have the whole world
The only way Sauron could establish any kind of foothold in the north after the war of dwarves and orcs and long after the angmar war is If Sauron wanted to ally with marauders, Bandits, raiders and other itinerant criminal vagabonds. And that's hoping they don't just slaughter the couple hundred orcs envoy. And losing their own men. Losing both way numbers to confirm enmity and gaining nothing. Except some bandit with a stone knife acquiring a sharp orc metal sword. And doing the Dunedain's work.
Honestly there's no other population other than immigrant Dunlending ruffians for Sauron to rely on. And at that point most Dunlendings are in Dunland not criminal immigrants minority that they are in Eriador.
What force other than a 4 thousand strong unified army of bandit gangs who otherwise kill each other could Sauron rely on?
Ahh explains a lot thanks 🤓
Can’t sauron army go from mount gundabad to angmar? So that way no need to worry about Mirkwood
These lotr lore channels. Yay
Attention all nerds. You can play the Minecraft version of LoTR to roleplay the remaking of Angmar for free. The Shire won't know what's coming.
Sauron didn't reoccupy Angmar, but do you think orcs and trolls could have done so?
Sauron is not sentimental.
Its purpose served, Angmar wasn't worth the investment.
Sauron was a 'bottom line' sort.
What if Sauron had allied with the Klingons? Even Dumbledore couldn't have defeated him then, at least not without Ethan Hunt and the velociraptors.
I have a question for Community: What if an Army of Orcs of Gundabad and Dol Guldur, led by Bolg and Azog, who was managed to attack Erebor, was instead sent to Carn Dûm by Sauron? And what if Sauron emptied entire Gundabad and Dol Guldur, and all of Orcs from Gundabad and Dol Guldur, together with Azog and Bolg was sent to Carn Dûm to Reclaim Kingdom of Angmar? You have on mind that army of Sauron at the Battle of a five Armies was Big... (According to informations from Google army of Orcs and War Beasts who attacked Erebor was this strong: 75,000 Orcs of Dol Guldur, 5,000 Goblin Mercenaries from Misty Mountains, 800 Ogres, 500 Cave Trolls, Olog - Hai, 50,000 Orcs of Mount Gundabad, 2,500 Bats of Gundabad...) And to complicate things even more, what if Sauron emptied Goblin town, and sent all goblins (who were now without king who was killed by fellowship of dwarves) to reinforce Armies of Gundabad and Dol Guldur in Angmar. You Have on mind that Gundabad and Dol Guldur wasn't completely emptied before Battle of Five Armies, At Gundabad were At Least 50,000 More Orcs (my opinion). Same with the Dol Guldur. Also, as you had the opportunity to see in the movie, Goblin Town was Crowded with Goblins. And Now, what if all that was sent to Regain and Rebuild Angmar? I waiting for your Answer. :)
I think you're referring to the films here, because the numbers are clearly different in the books and Azog already died in a previous war. In the films the armies, that were supposed to reconquer and defend Angmar got annihilated and we can infer that Gundabad couldn't afford a war. It still makes sense, that Sauron shifts his priorities to Mordor.
@@tarmairon431 Thank you for your reply!
good subject but very bad voice , low voice you gotta get better equipment
Call of duty doesn't work. It's trash and has been for years. Unfortunately people will keep buying it every year because they refuse to see the facts. Cod is copy and paste bullshit. The franchise is a joke. A fresh coat of paint and a handful of recycled or reworked features are the only real changes made every year. Why people dont see this is something I will never understand.
The logistics of reoccupying Angmar are a huge problem for the Dark Lord if he's going to be gathering an army of Men there. There's enough "food" under Gundabad and the northern Misty Mountains for Orcs to survive on, maybe, but Angmar is too cold and too ruined to grow significant crops in. The country would have been able to be supplied overland from Sauron-dominated Rhun during the middle of the Third Age, with only Thranduil's Elves and the Dwarves of the Iron Hills to harry the wains, but toward the end of the Third Age any Quartermaster of Angmar would also have had Erebor, Lake-Town, any Men remaining in the upper vales of the Anduin, and the Beornings to worry about.