I can certianly see Sauron having a hand in the plan to weaken dwarfs, in fact that might be why it took five years for Balin and company to be wiped out, he was likely hoping Balin's success was going to draw Dain in to, meaning the Ironhills would be at worst case for Sauron split on two fronts or had lost a big chunk of their army meaning it would be easier to wipe the dwarfs out.
The phrasings Gloin uses to describe the "whispers of discontent," of being "hemmed in a tight place" and more wealth to be found "in a wider world" do sound ominously similar to the lies Sauron used to trick Celebrimbor and the Elves of Eregion and to lead the Numenorians to their downfall. In all three cases some of the mightiest of their people were lured to their destruction by promises of great things that turned out to be empty.
I mean, there's the Balrog, so that always predestined the failure of the expedition. Even without it, there's Gundabad, the infestation of the Misty Mountains and the sheer vastness of Moria that makes it impossible to defend with a mere handful of Dwarves.
I always felt that the idea was that once the colony was firmly established more Dwarves would want to join them in the greatest dwellings of their place, strengthening the colony and replacing any inhabitants lost to chance. Gloin says "at first we had news and it seemed good," so the Dwarves of Erebor would have been like "cool, keep us posted." But they never got a green light that all was cool so no one ever went to join them.
very likely The Balrog thought the dwarves where not worth his direct presence and likely sent and stirred the orcs and goblins to remove the new pests. Now I think the reason why the Balrog took direct action when the fellowship came to Moria was that he could sense the power of the ring and Maybe even Gandalf's nature. And so decided to a more direct approach to deal with them. Balin to the Balrog was just another stupid dwarves who could be swept away with ease. But The ring and Gandalf where something else. Sauron likely knew about the Balrog in the mountain and thought he would be a useful tool in removing the dwarves power, He was likely hoping a full huge expedition funded by Erebor was to be sent, the loss of which would be crippling to Dain.
@@specialnewb9821 That Dog was a powerful wolf, a gift from a valor and blessed with valar like powers. Huan was no chump. Valar powers are a source of power beyond Sauron's Maiar powers. That vocalist was a first age elve. And did not actually fight Sauron.
another problem was food. we know that the dwarves of Erebor had no farmers among them, that there was nobody around for them to trade for food. that the inner city farms moria once had thanks to its shafts and light crystals are gone since the orcs probably blocked and destroyed them. meaning the only food they could rely on was what they brought with them and what they could find, fish and hunt outside the east gate which is quickly cut off when the orcs counter-attack
Imagine being a dwarf in the years after the fall of Sauron that decides to explore the lost secrets of Khazad-dum. Taking weeks-long expeditions down dark passages unseen for centuries.
Sauron the deceiver by name and Sauron the deceiver by nature, it’s possible he attempted it, however I think it’s more likely he was hoping to trap Dain there instead of Balin. But Balins colony may not have been doomed from the start had he foresight and knowledge to do certain objectives at certain points in time, for example once he had re-taken at least a portion of Moria, he should have tried to make sure there was a back way out and tried to find the Western gate long before any attack happened, so they would know if there was a Plan B of escape, also he could’ve tried to start-up alliances and trade routes with their closest neighbours such as Mirkwood or the Beornings, or more probable and closer Lothlorien. Although Dain said he would not send aid Balin could have still made it public knowledge to the Dwarven world of his success encouraging others from Erobor and the Blue Mountains to join him to boost his numbers.
Great video. Also very valid points you make. Having a guarantee of no support from Erebor should have been a huge red flag for Balin, on top of Balin likely knowing that the Elves of Lorien and certainly the Woodland Realm would never aid him, due to the dangers of the orcs, the amnesty between the Dwarves and Elves, but mostly their justified fear of the Balrog. Even if food, orcs, and allies weren't an issue, the colony would never have been able to survive the Balrog, since even Gandalf technically died battling it. All in all, the belief that Balin's colony was always doomed might as well just be basic fact. Looking forward to the next war video, I am assuming it is the Battle of the Five Armies :)
@@alanpennie8013 I haven't read the books in a while, but are we certain Dain knew it was a Balrog? Or did he just sense something evil and extremely powerful? I do recall in the books, Gandalf doesn't even know what it is at first. When he magically seals one of the doors to cover their escape, all he knows is that something extremely powerful is on the other side, capable of breaking the seal. Had Dain known what Durin's Bane actually ones, I cannot imagine him allowing Balin's expedition to go.
@@legionarybooks13 He may not have known exactly what "Durin's Bain" was. But he had seen it and intuited its tremendous power. I think him allowing Balin's expedition is a narrative fail.
"... hemmed in a _narrow place..._ wealth and splendour would be found in a _wider world"_ These words are somewhat reminiscent of words spoken by Fëanor and other Noldor in Valinor. Those _whispers and murmurs,_ of course, came from Melkor. It sounds like Sauron learned more from his master than just corrupting and dominating living things through force! After all the times I've read/listened to The Lord of the Rings, I never noticed this until now. One of the best things about these books is that, no matter how many times you read through them, they will always have something new for you.
Appendix A says “None the less it may well be, as the Dwarves now believe, that Sauron by his arts had discovered who had this Ring, the last to remain free, and that the singular misfortunes of the heirs of Durin were largely due to his malice.” Obviously this is written before the loss of the seventh ring but I agree with you that when there’s a suspicion of outside influence or interference amongst any of the free peoples, it points to Sauron. He’s just so good at playing on their desires, insecurities etc without them knowing for sure it’s him. A case could also be argued for him stirring up the dragons (and maybe even the Balrog) to attack the dwarves in the centuries before this as part of his wider strategy to weaken any major obstacles to his return.
I actually missed that quote when making this video so thanks for posting it. Perhaps Sauron had something to do with the Dragons and Smaug's attack on Erebor.
If I had been Balin, after taking Moria I and those under my command would explore the ruins, recover what we could, and then evacuate back to Erebor instead of tempting fate.
Some fun theories about Sauron meddling. My impression of Dwarves in Middle Earth is that they may have launched the expedition without Sauron’s meddling, anyway. The dwarves have a strong sense of ownership with a powerful drive to reclaim what they perceive as theirs. They can sometimes be single-minded about it. The Nauglamír comes to mind.
16 year old me 9 years ago, after having watched Lord of the Rings all my life, reading the Hobbit and LOTR, and then watching the Hobbit movies, and only then realizing that Oin, Ori, and Balin all met horrible ends in Moria: 😞
I would like to see a LOTR tota war game where this is the main mechanic for Balin, In Warhammer III Markus Wulfhart has a similar situation, the More he expands and builds up the more Hostile his Neighboring Lizardmen Become and it Spawns deadlier and deadlier Armies, Balin's Colony can have a similar mechanic for Moria, the More he Grows his Empire, the More Hostile his Neighboring Orcs become and the Deadlier the Armies that Spawn in Moria his Capital until it Spawns the Balrog.
i admire your perception. this is a topic never talked about and now i wonder why they didn’t just get some relics, treasure and the axe of durin and show the orcs that the dwarves will come back and get out of there. the prospects were quite grim for a colony but an expedition would have been a great success.
I think Balins expedition had to be at least 1000 Dwarves. The whole point would be to mine mithril and craft weapons/armor for profit. For this they would need all kinds of people to sustain the colony. And I like the idea that sauron convinced them to do this, which essentially ensured that the Dwarves contributed nothing in the war in the south
The black Uruks from Mordor probably arrived in Moria only a few day before the Fellowship. Haldir say "We have been keeping a watch on the rivers, ever since we saw a great troop of Orcs going north toward Moria, along the skirts of the mountains, many day ago."
Excellent video! I think the biggest aspect making it a strategic deathtrap was the situation with the West gate being blocked/guarded by the Watcher. It obviously prevented a quick escape if they were overrun from the East, but it also increased the colony's isolation; the only other significant source of Dwarven reinforcements would be from Ered Luin and other parts in the West. They could've reasonably reinforced Moria if the West gate was available, but if they had to go the long way around to the East gate that becomes way harder, both physically and for communication.
I was always confused by Gimli's surprised horror (from the movie, at least; I don't remember whether this was also in the book) and that the fate of the colony was unknown for so long. The way I understand it, they died after just a few years - _several_ decades before the council of Elrond. I get that news travel more slowly in a medieval fantasy world, but for all this time, nobody went to check on the colony and found out it was destroyed? Or if traders and caravans going there were massacred by the goblins, nobody realized those people traveling to Moria never came back? For years? Maybe Dwarves go "radio silent" for years and decades on end, but I still would've thought somebody would've gone there to actually check, in the intervening _thirty_ years. Even without official support, there should've been a scout or two.
You'd think so. Balin was an eminent person, Thorin's former consigliere. It may be that Dain, knowing as he did about The Balrog, forbade anyone to go, which raises the question why he allowed Balin to go.
@@alanpennie8013 Balin is a rich and storied dwarf. Influential enough that dwarves were listening to him despite the long odds of a successful Moria colony. The dwarves of Erebor were still getting back on their feet after Smaug. King Dain might have judged that Balin's plan could snowball and seriously threaten the survivability of his own kingdom (politically or even through violence) if he didn't permit some dwarves to accompany Balin. Better to lose a few then lose it all. Dain might have considered the dark whispers and rumors circulating too and did this to undercut their potential harm.
It's worth noting that the kind of dwarf who would join an expedition to Moria is also the kind of dwarf to join an expedition to oppose Sauron. By creating a quest of folly to occupy those dwarves, Sauron has effectively taken the most dangerous (to him) segment of the dwarven population and neutralized them with little effort on his part.
Here's a thought...perhaps Balin only went reluctantly? Perhaps in order to avoid civil conflict, Dain agreed to the expedition on the condition it was led by a dwarf of Durin's line. Balin may have "taken one for the team".
Amazing video man congratz, really never thought of the expedition this way... nice points and also nice lore These longer videos are actually better for lore becuse you have more time to cover all possibilitys and scenarios, keep it up I tend to belive he wanted to show the rest of the dwarfs Moria was habitable again, and as soon as he developed the colony he would get the support from Erebor and some few folk of the nearby Blue Mountains, i think he was guessing he would have support again, not in time it seems...
Balin and company were in the presence of the Ring throughout most of the entire quest for Erebor, so perhaps that influenced them to seek wealth and power in Moria.
I had always assumed that Balin's expedition to Moria was very small, perhaps 50 or 60 dwarves to start out with, steadily decreasing in number as they took losses in battles against orcs. Balin's taking the title "Lord of Moria" would have been proud and somewhat pretentious, but understandable as it was done in the aftermath of a successful defeat of the orcs there and momentary conquest of a significant landmark within the dwarves' ancestral home. As for Durin's Bane, I thought the dwarves dealt with that by limiting their occupation to a relatively small area within Moria, carefully keeping track of where it was and what it was doing, and taking any steps necessary to stay out of its way. Dain was aware of its presence, and would certainly have warned Balin about it as the chief danger he would face. It's even possible, albeit unlikely, that the expedition somehow reached some sort of understanding with the balrog and avoided making themselves a nuisance to it in exchange for it not destroying them.
@@jacobgutow-ellis1612 It is crazy to think one of their videos blew up (280 k I guess) and they still have only hundreds or thousands of views max on each video
Did Dain II tell Balin and the rest of the dwarves that a Balrog was living inside of Moria? I would think even the most reckless dwarves would be cowed at the idea of facing down an evil primordial being from the first age and beyond. In fact why doesn't everyone know that thing lives there? It was the reason the city was abandoned in the first place.
While I agree that the author's intent was clearly for Balin's expedition to be a doomed one, I would argue that one paper, it had a much better chance of succeeding than the quest to liberate Erebor. It wasn't until Smaug had died, under circumstances no-one could have fully predicted, that the dwarves of the west bothered to support the venture, so I think it is reasonable to argue that Balin was hoping for something similar to occur once Moria had been taken back. With better diplomacy and coordination with potential allies, I do think it would have been feasible to retake Moria in the interlude between the reestablishment of Erebor and the start of the war of the ring. Logistically, it would have made a sound preparatory step before evicting the necromancer from Dol Guldur; and by securing Moria and Mirkwood, the free peoples could have connected their eastern and western nations, allowing for greater cooperation, support and trade.
Overall I like your theory. I'd like to add three other factors for Balin's bad judgment. First, maybe an assumption that the orcs of the Misty Mountains had not recovered as much and were still in disarray after the Battle of the Five Armies. Two, an expedition of 13 dwarves and a hobbit eventually lead to the defeat of Smaug, (granted a lot happened after, but that small expedition was the catalyst and now the start of this expedition included a lot more numbers). Three, while Dane knew whatever wiped out the Dwarves was powerful, I don't think he knew exactly what it was. When the Fellowship encounters it, it's Legolas that recognizes it's a balrog. It's very easy to get overly optimistic when you don't have all the facts and it's easy to assume that if you've won before, you can do it again. After all, It happens all the time in the real world.
The Balrog alone probably woulda been cause for concern. I mean, what was Balin's plan for dealing with Durins bane to begin with when it would have eventually showed up?
I think the reason why Balin’s colony never ran into the Balrog was probably that the small size of the colony meant not only did they never reached the areas it occupied but also that the Balrog probably knew the orcs would deal with them if it gave them some time.
What seems implausible is that Balin was fighting a two front war: defending against attacks from within Moria and attacks from the outside. It seems suicide to seize only a small part of Moria and then leave yourself open to attack from multiple directions. If the Dwarves could wall off passages with their mining skills so they only have to defend one way that could work, but at this point the orcs know Moria better than the Dwarves do and they are capable of digging tunnels. The other flaw is warning of a pending attack. Was anybody watching Dol Guldur or the crossing of the Anduin, or were they just guarding the gates of Moria? But this raises another problem. The elves in Lorien can't afford to assume that an orc army marching to Moria isn't marching against them. It's unclear how that would work out, but I don't see how the elves could not intervene against an orc army marching past their northern border.
One major factor for the success or failure of Balin's resettlement is the size and scale of Moria. When Durin first began settlement, it was one cave and chamber at a time, gradually expanding as the population grew larger. Balin was coming into the ruin of a sprawling underground metropolis with merely a few hundred dwarves. When one considers the ambition to not just colonize such a place, but re-establish the lines of communication and transit through such a vast set of spaces, the security problem becomes impossible. On top of this there is the unsatisfying stalemate of the War of the Dwarves & Orcs, a war that acheive vengance for the blood of Thror, but could not remove the orcs from Moria, nor cleanse it of the rest of many fell creatures that lurked in its depths.
Agreed. Definitely in Sauron's interest to weaken Erebor as much as possible. By the time the first book starts he's had decades to reinforce Moria with his uruks and possibly influence the Balrog. The whole time the Fellowship is in Moria is filled with a subtle, slow accumulation of horror and despair that isn't really surpassed even by Frodo and Sam confronting Shelob, IMO.
I suspect that there was more than one Dwarf in Balin's party that knew this was going to end in tragedy. The Dwarves had a strong code of discipline and honour throughout their culture though, so there would be few with the mindset to deter the decision, once Balin had determined he was going. Balin was an Elder, a Senior Authority and one of the Legendary Company that retook Erebor from the Dragon, Smaug. Not one to be arbitrarily dismissed for irrational thought. There may have even been some who relished the idea of going out in a blaze of glory, a name added to the books of legendary heroes. Of course the whole idea was doomed but perhaps to some, that didn't matter?
I think the question isnt whether they were doomed, of course with hindsight they were, but should they have realised they were before they went. On that I am not so sure. They new that the mountain orks were depleted, the presence of Mordor Orks certainly shows some interest in the outcome, but it also shows the local Orks needed reinforcement. Balin had no reason 35 years earlier to suspect Sauron's involvement, he did not know of Saruman's tretchery, indeed so far as he knew Sauron had been forced out of Dol Guldur, the threat was less, it was the perfect time to attempt it. Dain says he felt the Balrog's presence, but he hadn't seen it, and it took no part in the battle he was involved it. Its not unreasonable for Balin to conclude that this threat exists, but that it is dormant. Just as those who live at the side of a volcano measure the risk of living with a threat. Just as the lake men lived for generations under the threat of the dragon. Finally remember Balin had been part of an attempt of 13 dwarves and one hobbit to defeat a dragon, a much riskier sounding plan, Moria must have seemed much more doable once that came off.
Way way waaaaay overestimating the size of the expedition. Food and supply/trade infrastructure was the main limit. Small farming communities could be set up around the size of what the pilgrims attempted at Plymouth Rock. I'm thinking any guess that goes much over 100 dwarves is optimistic.
There is something else that lends credence to your conspiracy theory. During the Council of Elrond, Gloin mentioned the hopes of finding the last Dwarven Ring of Power as another strong motive for going to Moria. I could definitely see the Lord of the Rings specifically including that in the whispers, especially as he was one of only two people who knew for certain it wasn't there.
Question: Did King Dain actually know it was a Balrog, or just the presence something evil and powerful? In the books, Gandalf didn't even know what they were up against at first, only sensing something extremely powerful when he tried to magically seal one of the doors as they fled towards the Bridge of Khazad Dum. Had the dwarves known Durin's Bane was a Balrog, I cannot imagine anyone thinking it a good idea to step foot into Moria, letting alone Dain allowing it!
In the Hobbit (Book) atleast, Dain saw a creature made out of shadow and fire lurking deep within. Also does even anybody know what a balrog is by this point? I mean there have been thousands of years since the war of wrath. Only the elves and beings like gandalf are old enough to remember this, for others its more like a myth.
I always assumed that Dain recognized that the terror he saw was Durin's Bane, but was unaware that it was a Balrog. It's uncertain as to whether dwarves had ever heard of Balrogs as a type, other than Durin's Bane.
@@DamonNomad82 I assumed the same thing. Thousands of years have passed since the War of Wrath, which I believe is the last time balrogs were seen. And given the animosity between elves and dwarves, would the dwarves know the historical details or even what a balrog was? And while non-canon, I thought it was a fair point in Middle Earth: Shadow of War when Talion tells Celebrimbor that he's never even heard of a balrog. To which Celebrimbor says, "Few survive who have." Heck, the only ones I could think of would be Glorfindel and maybe Galadriel and Celeborn. So yeah, I don't think anyone knew what Durin's Bane actually was. If they did, that just makes Dain and Balin look like complete imbeciles, which they were not.
Given his life experience with retaking Dwarven cities against impossible odds from terrifying creatures, it’s pretty odd Balin didn’t try to recruit Gandalf and even Bilbo. 100-year-old unaged Bilbo quite possibly would’ve gone.
I don't believe Balin's extraordinary folly stands up to fridge logic. As you yourself point out Dain had actually seen The Balrog. Even if he thought it tyrannous to forbid the expedition he would have issued very clear and explicit warnings and no one would have gone who wasn't completely insane.
Balin should have just treated Moria as a good looting place, set supply lines between camp and Erebor, and just loot and extract stuff till the orcs attacks
Balin's plan was brave but, with Durin's bane still existing in Moria......no, there was no hope for them. Reclaiming Khazad dum was a compelling argument....but come on....Dain II after the battle of Azanulbuzar SAW...with his own eyes...Durin's bane in the eastern gate of Moria and said 'Oh HELL no. " Balin had this story in front of him and still went. Facepalm. It wasn't going to work. Ever."
One element you might have weaved into this is why the quest in The Hobbit was different. I would have called The Hobbit quest far more difficult and yet it succeeded. Why?
Rewatching and i have to wonder what would have happened if Dain didn't know of the Balrog or he now believe it had died and actually supported Balin, what could have happened, the battles in the North would have been a lot worse with a much weaker dwarf forces from the Ironhills
the dwarves thought they were hemmed in, implying their population was growing. they may have been arogant- having regained their ancient city they now maybe thought they could go forward with the momentum of the orcs on their back foot after the battle of 5 armies and the dwarves should strike while they could
I think it's great that this as an informational vid was presented with integrity and without what was becoming a customary slide into bad character and base language. I like all my reference sources to exercise a modicum of professionalism, so kudos. 👍 I think I can re-subscribe, we'll see I suppose. I think your theories are as good as, or even the best available. The logic is sound, is based on known factors and doesn't attempt to embellish or force itself, rather simply taking the most natural courses, and makes a solid all around case. It's perfect. 😊
I always wondered what the relationship between Sauron and the Balrog was? I always figured Sauron was of greater power then the remaining Balrog. So is it possible that the Balrog may have been wary of Sauron, or even not wanting to be forced into the service of Sauron? Anyone who spends 5,000 years hiding after losing a war, is worried about something. So those five years of the colony could have been the Balrog laying low to see what Sauron was up to. There were dwarfs that served Sauron after all. Remember Sauron never had a dragon under his direct control either, not all evil creatures of power shared the same goal. After all better to be a ruler in Hell, then a servant in Heaven or in this case Mordor.
I imagine Sauron and the Balrog were both aware of each other considering that Sauron had been populating Moria with his Orcs. I think Sauron may have tried to secure the Balrog's allegiance, but the Balrog probably declined based on him and Sauron being at similar levels. Unless Sauron showed up in person, I think he realised that he could not force the Balrog to do anything and was content to leave him be.
@@DarthGandalfYT Now you really got me thinking. So Gandalf takes down a Balrog. If Sauron and the Balrog are similar in power and one wizard takes down a Balrog, then what exactly could 5 wizards together could have done to Sauron? If it was okay for Gandalf to take out the Balrog, why didn't the wizards just find Sauron and end it right there? There is a break down in the whole logic of the story then. You can't say the wizards where sent to just advise the good people and to do nothing else, if it is okay for Gandalf to take out a being almost as powerful as Sauron. Gandalf tells the members of the Fellowship you do not have the power to oppose the Balrog, so it is okay for him to fight the Balrog. Then that logic should apply to Sauron also. Also why would the Balrog not realize that Gandalf is also a Maiar and it would be a bad idea to fight someone who could fight you on equal terms? Now the whole plot falls apart for me. I should never rethink my favorite book, lol.
@@dougredshirt3991 It was part of the mission - statement of The Istari that they not overthrow Sauron themselves ( as they probably could have done) but instead advise and encourage The Free Folk to do it themselves (you know, free will and all that). As to why The Balrog attacked Gandalf that's a good question. Maybe it fell under the lure of The Ring.
@@dougredshirt3991 I think he mean that they had similar level in rank. Also Sauron probably didnt have enough raw power to make that powerful creature obey (without The Ring). The Balrog probably also didnt have enough power to hurt Saurons body, what was bounded to The Ring so it was indestructable. Even The Wise (what was probably even more powerful group than the 5 wizards) wasnt able to hurt Sauron when they attacked DG only forced him to leave. Gandalf was only able to kill the Balrog by an extreme battle and for the price of his own life and probably by his Ring of Fire.
@@dougredshirt3991 ...The simple reason why, is the destruction of Beleriand. If all had gone all out, and the Ring-Wraiths too. Gondor at the least, would have been ruined as well! The Valar, knowing this, would NOT allow the wizards to do so.
Nah. They were still beneath the notice of The Balrog.....for the time. Maybe 500 Dwarves. Balin's share was tainted by Smaug, Balin was tainted by this. The involvement of the Watcher show Sauron was involved in the downfall. He did not need the Balrog nor do I feel it was his ally. Without actual possession of his ring, could Sauron control it?
I think that Sauron was behind this is not only probable but likely. As has been pointed out, under normal circumstances why would Balin and his small colony think they could deal with Durin's Bane when the entire city with vastly more warriors couldn't when they first encountered the Balrog.
Balin was possibly blinded by pride. After all, he had survived some pretty crazy things - Smaug's attack, the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, the Quest for Erebor, the Battle of the Five Armies...Perhaps he felt that he could succeed where his ancestors could not.
MIthril was the main reason: you have to remember that it is the most precious metal in Tolkien world and it is mined only from Moria. The success in Erebor made Balin think that they could reattempt entering the greatest of the dwarves realms and at least take a little bit of the mines back: even a small production of mithril would have massively enhanched their power and put a serious dent in any of Sauron's attempt of conquering Eriador (Balin is far friendlier than most dwarves) and greatly reinforced Lorien. That is why the goblins were there.
I understand why Dain didn't send his own Men and messengers from Erebor its self but I still would have had like a ok if no news comes on the regular we have to atleast go check it out because Dain seen Durins Bane with his own eyes
@@DarthGandalfYT Sounds good to me! Non-jokey thought, though. How much time passed with the Balrog down there... with nobody else? Or just orcs and trolls that clearly didn't want to spend time in its presence? With no Morgoth to command it, and arguably tenuous command over the army of goblinorcs, how exactly did this immortal, powerful, intelligent Maia keep itself occupied?
Absolutely. And he should have laid the diplomatic groundwork to make sure he had supply lines and some way to retreat if he needed to. Obviously that would mean making contact with the lands west of Moria, given that the east is occupied by elves who have little or no use for dwarves and are preoccupied with other foes. The west is empty land, but it didn't have to be, a long plan would have had a settlement of dwarves, possibly with some men as well, establishing farms and trade routes there to test the waters and draw more numerous dwarven colonists for the eventual occupation of Moria. Even that would fall prey to the balrog eventually, but it might at least have held against the orcs. Of course, it also would have taken until well after the end of the Third Age to even break into the outer halls of Moria.
So what you're saying is, "Certainty of death. Small chance of success. What are we waiting for?" - Balin
Excellent.....kudos
Family motto. 🤣
I can certianly see Sauron having a hand in the plan to weaken dwarfs, in fact that might be why it took five years for Balin and company to be wiped out, he was likely hoping Balin's success was going to draw Dain in to, meaning the Ironhills would be at worst case for Sauron split on two fronts or had lost a big chunk of their army meaning it would be easier to wipe the dwarfs out.
The phrasings Gloin uses to describe the "whispers of discontent," of being "hemmed in a tight place" and more wealth to be found "in a wider world" do sound ominously similar to the lies Sauron used to trick Celebrimbor and the Elves of Eregion and to lead the Numenorians to their downfall. In all three cases some of the mightiest of their people were lured to their destruction by promises of great things that turned out to be empty.
I mean, there's the Balrog, so that always predestined the failure of the expedition. Even without it, there's Gundabad, the infestation of the Misty Mountains and the sheer vastness of Moria that makes it impossible to defend with a mere handful of Dwarves.
I always felt that the idea was that once the colony was firmly established more Dwarves would want to join them in the greatest dwellings of their place, strengthening the colony and replacing any inhabitants lost to chance. Gloin says "at first we had news and it seemed good," so the Dwarves of Erebor would have been like "cool, keep us posted." But they never got a green light that all was cool so no one ever went to join them.
very likely The Balrog thought the dwarves where not worth his direct presence and likely sent and stirred the orcs and goblins to remove the new pests. Now I think the reason why the Balrog took direct action when the fellowship came to Moria was that he could sense the power of the ring and Maybe even Gandalf's nature. And so decided to a more direct approach to deal with them. Balin to the Balrog was just another stupid dwarves who could be swept away with ease. But The ring and Gandalf where something else.
Sauron likely knew about the Balrog in the mountain and thought he would be a useful tool in removing the dwarves power, He was likely hoping a full huge expedition funded by Erebor was to be sent, the loss of which would be crippling to Dain.
This is the one that makes sense whoaaa
I always wanted to see a throw down between a ring holding S and the Balrog. "I was your boss!" "Co-worker at best!" Fight. Fight.
@@specialnewb9821 I Give it to Sauron then, Without the ring he was stronger than Gandalf the White.
@@RomanHistoryFan476AD Sauron lost to a dog and a local vocalist. Not really a combat specialist
@@specialnewb9821 That Dog was a powerful wolf, a gift from a valor and blessed with valar like powers. Huan was no chump. Valar powers are a source of power beyond Sauron's Maiar powers.
That vocalist was a first age elve. And did not actually fight Sauron.
another problem was food. we know that the dwarves of Erebor had no farmers among them, that there was nobody around for them to trade for food. that the inner city farms moria once had thanks to its shafts and light crystals are gone since the orcs probably blocked and destroyed them. meaning the only food they could rely on was what they brought with them and what they could find, fish and hunt outside the east gate which is quickly cut off when the orcs counter-attack
The Dwarves' problem was not simply that they didn't have food, but that they WERE food!
Not the video I expected, but a pleasant surprise, to be sure
Imagine being a dwarf in the years after the fall of Sauron that decides to explore the lost secrets of Khazad-dum. Taking weeks-long expeditions down dark passages unseen for centuries.
Sauron the deceiver by name and Sauron the deceiver by nature, it’s possible he attempted it, however I think it’s more likely he was hoping to trap Dain there instead of Balin.
But Balins colony may not have been doomed from the start had he foresight and knowledge to do certain objectives at certain points in time, for example once he had re-taken at least a portion of Moria, he should have tried to make sure there was a back way out and tried to find the Western gate long before any attack happened, so they would know if there was a Plan B of escape, also he could’ve tried to start-up alliances and trade routes with their closest neighbours such as Mirkwood or the Beornings, or more probable and closer Lothlorien. Although Dain said he would not send aid Balin could have still made it public knowledge to the Dwarven world of his success encouraging others from Erobor and the Blue Mountains to join him to boost his numbers.
Great video. Also very valid points you make. Having a guarantee of no support from Erebor should have been a huge red flag for Balin, on top of Balin likely knowing that the Elves of Lorien and certainly the Woodland Realm would never aid him, due to the dangers of the orcs, the amnesty between the Dwarves and Elves, but mostly their justified fear of the Balrog. Even if food, orcs, and allies weren't an issue, the colony would never have been able to survive the Balrog, since even Gandalf technically died battling it. All in all, the belief that Balin's colony was always doomed might as well just be basic fact. Looking forward to the next war video, I am assuming it is the Battle of the Five Armies :)
What on Middle - earth was Balin thinking?
Are we supposed to believe that Dain didn't tell him about The Balrog?
@@alanpennie8013 I haven't read the books in a while, but are we certain Dain knew it was a Balrog? Or did he just sense something evil and extremely powerful? I do recall in the books, Gandalf doesn't even know what it is at first. When he magically seals one of the doors to cover their escape, all he knows is that something extremely powerful is on the other side, capable of breaking the seal. Had Dain known what Durin's Bane actually ones, I cannot imagine him allowing Balin's expedition to go.
@@legionarybooks13
He may not have known exactly what "Durin's Bain" was.
But he had seen it and intuited its tremendous power.
I think him allowing Balin's expedition is a narrative fail.
I was confused when you mentioned the relationship between the Dwarves and Elves. It’s animosity, not amnesty. 😅
"... hemmed in a _narrow place..._ wealth and splendour would be found in a _wider world"_
These words are somewhat reminiscent of words spoken by Fëanor and other Noldor in Valinor. Those _whispers and murmurs,_ of course, came from Melkor. It sounds like Sauron learned more from his master than just corrupting and dominating living things through force!
After all the times I've read/listened to The Lord of the Rings, I never noticed this until now. One of the best things about these books is that, no matter how many times you read through them, they will always have something new for you.
Very interesting observation!!!
An upload from this channel always makes a good day, a great day
Appendix A says “None the less it may well be, as the Dwarves now believe, that Sauron by his arts had discovered who had this Ring, the last to remain free, and that the singular misfortunes of the heirs of Durin were largely due to his malice.” Obviously this is written before the loss of the seventh ring but I agree with you that when there’s a suspicion of outside influence or interference amongst any of the free peoples, it points to Sauron. He’s just so good at playing on their desires, insecurities etc without them knowing for sure it’s him. A case could also be argued for him stirring up the dragons (and maybe even the Balrog) to attack the dwarves in the centuries before this as part of his wider strategy to weaken any major obstacles to his return.
I actually missed that quote when making this video so thanks for posting it. Perhaps Sauron had something to do with the Dragons and Smaug's attack on Erebor.
If I had been Balin, after taking Moria I and those under my command would explore the ruins, recover what we could, and then evacuate back to Erebor instead of tempting fate.
Some fun theories about Sauron meddling. My impression of Dwarves in Middle Earth is that they may have launched the expedition without Sauron’s meddling, anyway. The dwarves have a strong sense of ownership with a powerful drive to reclaim what they perceive as theirs. They can sometimes be single-minded about it. The Nauglamír comes to mind.
16 year old me 9 years ago, after having watched Lord of the Rings all my life, reading the Hobbit and LOTR, and then watching the Hobbit movies, and only then realizing that Oin, Ori, and Balin all met horrible ends in Moria: 😞
I would like to see a LOTR tota war game where this is the main mechanic for Balin,
In Warhammer III Markus Wulfhart has a similar situation, the More he expands and builds up the more Hostile his Neighboring Lizardmen Become and it Spawns deadlier and deadlier Armies,
Balin's Colony can have a similar mechanic for Moria, the More he Grows his Empire, the More Hostile his Neighboring Orcs become and the Deadlier the Armies that Spawn in Moria his Capital until it Spawns the Balrog.
i admire your perception. this is a topic never talked about and now i wonder why they didn’t just get some relics, treasure and the axe of durin and show the orcs that the dwarves will come back and get out of there. the prospects were quite grim for a colony but an expedition would have been a great success.
I think Balins expedition had to be at least 1000 Dwarves. The whole point would be to mine mithril and craft weapons/armor for profit. For this they would need all kinds of people to sustain the colony. And I like the idea that sauron convinced them to do this, which essentially ensured that the Dwarves contributed nothing in the war in the south
The black Uruks from Mordor probably arrived in Moria only a few day before the Fellowship. Haldir say "We have been keeping a watch on the rivers, ever since we saw a great troop of Orcs going north toward Moria, along the skirts of the mountains, many day ago."
Loved this video, especially the ending. Super fascinating speculation
"So ended the attempt to retake Moria! It was valiant but foolish. The time is not come yet." - Gandalf
Can't wait for the next war in middle earth video :>
Excellent video! I think the biggest aspect making it a strategic deathtrap was the situation with the West gate being blocked/guarded by the Watcher. It obviously prevented a quick escape if they were overrun from the East, but it also increased the colony's isolation; the only other significant source of Dwarven reinforcements would be from Ered Luin and other parts in the West. They could've reasonably reinforced Moria if the West gate was available, but if they had to go the long way around to the East gate that becomes way harder, both physically and for communication.
Wonderfully covered material. The music was perfect!
I was always confused by Gimli's surprised horror (from the movie, at least; I don't remember whether this was also in the book) and that the fate of the colony was unknown for so long. The way I understand it, they died after just a few years - _several_ decades before the council of Elrond. I get that news travel more slowly in a medieval fantasy world, but for all this time, nobody went to check on the colony and found out it was destroyed? Or if traders and caravans going there were massacred by the goblins, nobody realized those people traveling to Moria never came back? For years? Maybe Dwarves go "radio silent" for years and decades on end, but I still would've thought somebody would've gone there to actually check, in the intervening _thirty_ years. Even without official support, there should've been a scout or two.
You'd think so.
Balin was an eminent person, Thorin's former consigliere.
It may be that Dain, knowing as he did about The Balrog, forbade anyone to go, which raises the question why he allowed Balin to go.
@@alanpennie8013 Balin is a rich and storied dwarf. Influential enough that dwarves were listening to him despite the long odds of a successful Moria colony. The dwarves of Erebor were still getting back on their feet after Smaug. King Dain might have judged that Balin's plan could snowball and seriously threaten the survivability of his own kingdom (politically or even through violence) if he didn't permit some dwarves to accompany Balin. Better to lose a few then lose it all. Dain might have considered the dark whispers and rumors circulating too and did this to undercut their potential harm.
@@Bhoddisatva
Quite a Machiavellian that Dain.
@@alanpennie8013it's why he's King!
It's worth noting that the kind of dwarf who would join an expedition to Moria is also the kind of dwarf to join an expedition to oppose Sauron. By creating a quest of folly to occupy those dwarves, Sauron has effectively taken the most dangerous (to him) segment of the dwarven population and neutralized them with little effort on his part.
I love long videos. I don't click on a any lore unless I have the time to immerse myself.
Here's a thought...perhaps Balin only went reluctantly? Perhaps in order to avoid civil conflict, Dain agreed to the expedition on the condition it was led by a dwarf of Durin's line. Balin may have "taken one for the team".
Ooo liked the twist at the end. Great vid
Amazing video man congratz, really never thought of the expedition this way... nice points and also nice lore
These longer videos are actually better for lore becuse you have more time to cover all possibilitys and scenarios, keep it up
I tend to belive he wanted to show the rest of the dwarfs Moria was habitable again, and as soon as he developed the colony he would get the support from Erebor and some few folk of the nearby Blue Mountains, i think he was guessing he would have support again, not in time it seems...
I think balin should have made it just an expedition of just come there look for relics then leave quickly.
Balin and company were in the presence of the Ring throughout most of the entire quest for Erebor, so perhaps that influenced them to seek wealth and power in Moria.
Well, I'll certainly take that to thought. Good one.
I had always assumed that Balin's expedition to Moria was very small, perhaps 50 or 60 dwarves to start out with, steadily decreasing in number as they took losses in battles against orcs. Balin's taking the title "Lord of Moria" would have been proud and somewhat pretentious, but understandable as it was done in the aftermath of a successful defeat of the orcs there and momentary conquest of a significant landmark within the dwarves' ancestral home. As for Durin's Bane, I thought the dwarves dealt with that by limiting their occupation to a relatively small area within Moria, carefully keeping track of where it was and what it was doing, and taking any steps necessary to stay out of its way. Dain was aware of its presence, and would certainly have warned Balin about it as the chief danger he would face. It's even possible, albeit unlikely, that the expedition somehow reached some sort of understanding with the balrog and avoided making themselves a nuisance to it in exchange for it not destroying them.
Such an underrated channel!
I agree the expedition was doomed for the start
Your videos are so underrated, you deserve 100k, not 5k
Right?! They're so good and how he estimates army sizes is something I also really love watching.
@@jacobgutow-ellis1612 It is crazy to think one of their videos blew up (280 k I guess) and they still have only hundreds or thousands of views max on each video
Did Dain II tell Balin and the rest of the dwarves that a Balrog was living inside of Moria? I would think even the most reckless dwarves would be cowed at the idea of facing down an evil primordial being from the first age and beyond. In fact why doesn't everyone know that thing lives there? It was the reason the city was abandoned in the first place.
Man please more videos with that lenghts! You make my day!!
While I agree that the author's intent was clearly for Balin's expedition to be a doomed one, I would argue that one paper, it had a much better chance of succeeding than the quest to liberate Erebor. It wasn't until Smaug had died, under circumstances no-one could have fully predicted, that the dwarves of the west bothered to support the venture, so I think it is reasonable to argue that Balin was hoping for something similar to occur once Moria had been taken back.
With better diplomacy and coordination with potential allies, I do think it would have been feasible to retake Moria in the interlude between the reestablishment of Erebor and the start of the war of the ring. Logistically, it would have made a sound preparatory step before evicting the necromancer from Dol Guldur; and by securing Moria and Mirkwood, the free peoples could have connected their eastern and western nations, allowing for greater cooperation, support and trade.
Overall I like your theory. I'd like to add three other factors for Balin's bad judgment. First, maybe an assumption that the orcs of the Misty Mountains had not recovered as much and were still in disarray after the Battle of the Five Armies. Two, an expedition of 13 dwarves and a hobbit eventually lead to the defeat of Smaug, (granted a lot happened after, but that small expedition was the catalyst and now the start of this expedition included a lot more numbers). Three, while Dane knew whatever wiped out the Dwarves was powerful, I don't think he knew exactly what it was. When the Fellowship encounters it, it's Legolas that recognizes it's a balrog. It's very easy to get overly optimistic when you don't have all the facts and it's easy to assume that if you've won before, you can do it again. After all, It happens all the time in the real world.
The Balrog alone probably woulda been cause for concern. I mean, what was Balin's plan for dealing with Durins bane to begin with when it would have eventually showed up?
Balin was absolutely insane to go to Moria if he knew The Balrog was there, and Dain certainly knew that it was highly likely it was there.
Great video!
I think the reason why Balin’s colony never ran into the Balrog was probably that the small size of the colony meant not only did they never reached the areas it occupied but also that the Balrog probably knew the orcs would deal with them if it gave them some time.
He was probably inspired the retaking of Erebor under similar circumstances
What seems implausible is that Balin was fighting a two front war: defending against attacks from within Moria and attacks from the outside. It seems suicide to seize only a small part of Moria and then leave yourself open to attack from multiple directions. If the Dwarves could wall off passages with their mining skills so they only have to defend one way that could work, but at this point the orcs know Moria better than the Dwarves do and they are capable of digging tunnels. The other flaw is warning of a pending attack. Was anybody watching Dol Guldur or the crossing of the Anduin, or were they just guarding the gates of Moria? But this raises another problem. The elves in Lorien can't afford to assume that an orc army marching to Moria isn't marching against them. It's unclear how that would work out, but I don't see how the elves could not intervene against an orc army marching past their northern border.
Perhaps the Orc armies marched straight through the mountains, down from the north, and largely avoided Lorien
The whole Iron Hills dwarven army at the Battle of the Five Armies was over 500, so 300-700 estimate range seems a bit high
Cheers mate
One major factor for the success or failure of Balin's resettlement is the size and scale of Moria. When Durin first began settlement, it was one cave and chamber at a time, gradually expanding as the population grew larger. Balin was coming into the ruin of a sprawling underground metropolis with merely a few hundred dwarves. When one considers the ambition to not just colonize such a place, but re-establish the lines of communication and transit through such a vast set of spaces, the security problem becomes impossible. On top of this there is the unsatisfying stalemate of the War of the Dwarves & Orcs, a war that acheive vengance for the blood of Thror, but could not remove the orcs from Moria, nor cleanse it of the rest of many fell creatures that lurked in its depths.
Pretty sure the last thought of each dwarf was "Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!"
Great video as usual ;)
ha, the Balrog in the room
The length is fine I like the theory
Agreed. Definitely in Sauron's interest to weaken Erebor as much as possible. By the time the first book starts he's had decades to reinforce Moria with his uruks and possibly influence the Balrog. The whole time the Fellowship is in Moria is filled with a subtle, slow accumulation of horror and despair that isn't really surpassed even by Frodo and Sam confronting Shelob, IMO.
I suspect that there was more than one Dwarf in Balin's party that knew this was going to end in tragedy. The Dwarves had a strong code of discipline and honour throughout their culture though, so there would be few with the mindset to deter the decision, once Balin had determined he was going.
Balin was an Elder, a Senior Authority and one of the Legendary Company that retook Erebor from the Dragon, Smaug. Not one to be arbitrarily dismissed for irrational thought.
There may have even been some who relished the idea of going out in a blaze of glory, a name added to the books of legendary heroes.
Of course the whole idea was doomed but perhaps to some, that didn't matter?
Very interesting
I think the question isnt whether they were doomed, of course with hindsight they were, but should they have realised they were before they went. On that I am not so sure. They new that the mountain orks were depleted, the presence of Mordor Orks certainly shows some interest in the outcome, but it also shows the local Orks needed reinforcement. Balin had no reason 35 years earlier to suspect Sauron's involvement, he did not know of Saruman's tretchery, indeed so far as he knew Sauron had been forced out of Dol Guldur, the threat was less, it was the perfect time to attempt it.
Dain says he felt the Balrog's presence, but he hadn't seen it, and it took no part in the battle he was involved it. Its not unreasonable for Balin to conclude that this threat exists, but that it is dormant. Just as those who live at the side of a volcano measure the risk of living with a threat. Just as the lake men lived for generations under the threat of the dragon. Finally remember Balin had been part of an attempt of 13 dwarves and one hobbit to defeat a dragon, a much riskier sounding plan, Moria must have seemed much more doable once that came off.
Way way waaaaay overestimating the size of the expedition.
Food and supply/trade infrastructure was the main limit. Small farming communities could be set up around the size of what the pilgrims attempted at Plymouth Rock. I'm thinking any guess that goes much over 100 dwarves is optimistic.
There is something else that lends credence to your conspiracy theory. During the Council of Elrond, Gloin mentioned the hopes of finding the last Dwarven Ring of Power as another strong motive for going to Moria. I could definitely see the Lord of the Rings specifically including that in the whispers, especially as he was one of only two people who knew for certain it wasn't there.
Question: Did King Dain actually know it was a Balrog, or just the presence something evil and powerful? In the books, Gandalf didn't even know what they were up against at first, only sensing something extremely powerful when he tried to magically seal one of the doors as they fled towards the Bridge of Khazad Dum. Had the dwarves known Durin's Bane was a Balrog, I cannot imagine anyone thinking it a good idea to step foot into Moria, letting alone Dain allowing it!
In the Hobbit (Book) atleast, Dain saw a creature made out of shadow and fire lurking deep within. Also does even anybody know what a balrog is by this point? I mean there have been thousands of years since the war of wrath. Only the elves and beings like gandalf are old enough to remember this, for others its more like a myth.
I always assumed that Dain recognized that the terror he saw was Durin's Bane, but was unaware that it was a Balrog. It's uncertain as to whether dwarves had ever heard of Balrogs as a type, other than Durin's Bane.
@@DamonNomad82 I assumed the same thing. Thousands of years have passed since the War of Wrath, which I believe is the last time balrogs were seen. And given the animosity between elves and dwarves, would the dwarves know the historical details or even what a balrog was? And while non-canon, I thought it was a fair point in Middle Earth: Shadow of War when Talion tells Celebrimbor that he's never even heard of a balrog. To which Celebrimbor says, "Few survive who have." Heck, the only ones I could think of would be Glorfindel and maybe Galadriel and Celeborn. So yeah, I don't think anyone knew what Durin's Bane actually was. If they did, that just makes Dain and Balin look like complete imbeciles, which they were not.
@@einfachignorieren6156 When does he see it? During the battle of Azanulbizar(gates of Moria)? Never saw that part in the film.
@@Dinoslay yes
Given his life experience with retaking Dwarven cities against impossible odds from terrifying creatures, it’s pretty odd Balin didn’t try to recruit Gandalf and even Bilbo. 100-year-old unaged Bilbo quite possibly would’ve gone.
it was a cool video i enjoyed it
Wait......... *That tomb was of Balin ?!!!!!* Good God.
A like and love the video!
I don't believe Balin's extraordinary folly stands up to fridge logic.
As you yourself point out Dain had actually seen The Balrog.
Even if he thought it tyrannous to forbid the expedition he would have issued very clear and explicit warnings and no one would have gone who wasn't completely insane.
Incidentally I think The Balrog did participate in the final destruction of the expedition.
That line about drums in the deep may allude to it.
Balin should have just treated Moria as a good looting place, set supply lines between camp and Erebor, and just loot and extract stuff till the orcs attacks
Can you make a what if balins colony was a success fan fiction where dain did send support and somehow the balrog died to Balin
Perhaps not greed for money but fame or prestige or the legacy of being the man who restored the dwarfs ancestral kingdom ?
Balin's plan was brave but, with Durin's bane still existing in Moria......no, there was no hope for them. Reclaiming Khazad dum was a compelling argument....but come on....Dain II after the battle of Azanulbuzar SAW...with his own eyes...Durin's bane in the eastern gate of Moria and said 'Oh HELL no. " Balin had this story in front of him and still went. Facepalm. It wasn't going to work. Ever."
One element you might have weaved into this is why the quest in The Hobbit was different. I would have called The Hobbit quest far more difficult and yet it succeeded. Why?
Honestly i think Balin went to Moria to find the last dwarven ring. If he would find it, i think he would return.
I agree with this video
Rewatching and i have to wonder what would have happened if Dain didn't know of the Balrog or he now believe it had died and actually supported Balin, what could have happened, the battles in the North would have been a lot worse with a much weaker dwarf forces from the Ironhills
MAZ-AR-BUL.
the dwarves thought they were hemmed in, implying their population was growing. they may have been arogant- having regained their ancient city they now maybe thought they could go forward with the momentum of the orcs on their back foot after the battle of 5 armies and the dwarves should strike while they could
I think it's great that this as an informational vid was presented with integrity and without what was becoming a customary slide into bad character and base language. I like all my reference sources to exercise a modicum of professionalism, so kudos. 👍 I think I can re-subscribe, we'll see I suppose. I think your theories are as good as, or even the best available. The logic is sound, is based on known factors and doesn't attempt to embellish or force itself, rather simply taking the most natural courses, and makes a solid all around case. It's perfect. 😊
I always wondered what the relationship between Sauron and the Balrog was? I always figured Sauron was of greater power then the remaining Balrog. So is it possible that the Balrog may have been wary of Sauron, or even not wanting to be forced into the service of Sauron? Anyone who spends 5,000 years hiding after losing a war, is worried about something. So those five years of the colony could have been the Balrog laying low to see what Sauron was up to. There were dwarfs that served Sauron after all. Remember Sauron never had a dragon under his direct control either, not all evil creatures of power shared the same goal. After all better to be a ruler in Hell, then a servant in Heaven or in this case Mordor.
I imagine Sauron and the Balrog were both aware of each other considering that Sauron had been populating Moria with his Orcs. I think Sauron may have tried to secure the Balrog's allegiance, but the Balrog probably declined based on him and Sauron being at similar levels. Unless Sauron showed up in person, I think he realised that he could not force the Balrog to do anything and was content to leave him be.
@@DarthGandalfYT Now you really got me thinking. So Gandalf takes down a Balrog. If Sauron and the Balrog are similar in power and one wizard takes down a Balrog, then what exactly could 5 wizards together could have done to Sauron? If it was okay for Gandalf to take out the Balrog, why didn't the wizards just find Sauron and end it right there? There is a break down in the whole logic of the story then. You can't say the wizards where sent to just advise the good people and to do nothing else, if it is okay for Gandalf to take out a being almost as powerful as Sauron. Gandalf tells the members of the Fellowship you do not have the power to oppose the Balrog, so it is okay for him to fight the Balrog. Then that logic should apply to Sauron also. Also why would the Balrog not realize that Gandalf is also a Maiar and it would be a bad idea to fight someone who could fight you on equal terms? Now the whole plot falls apart for me. I should never rethink my favorite book, lol.
@@dougredshirt3991
It was part of the mission - statement of The Istari that they not overthrow Sauron themselves ( as they probably could have done) but instead advise and encourage The Free Folk to do it themselves (you know, free will and all that).
As to why The Balrog attacked Gandalf that's a good question.
Maybe it fell under the lure of The Ring.
@@dougredshirt3991 I think he mean that they had similar level in rank. Also Sauron probably didnt have enough raw power to make that powerful creature obey (without The Ring). The Balrog probably also didnt have enough power to hurt Saurons body, what was bounded to The Ring so it was indestructable. Even The Wise (what was probably even more powerful group than the 5 wizards) wasnt able to hurt Sauron when they attacked DG only forced him to leave.
Gandalf was only able to kill the Balrog by an extreme battle and for the price of his own life and probably by his Ring of Fire.
@@dougredshirt3991 ...The simple reason why, is the destruction of Beleriand. If all had gone all out, and the Ring-Wraiths too. Gondor at the least, would have been ruined as well! The Valar, knowing this, would NOT allow the wizards to do so.
3:47 You can stop the video here, that is all anyone needs to know why the colony failed.
I'm starting to think the Watcher has some ego problems.
@@DarthGandalfYT True, much more self-confidence is deserved!
Nah. They were still beneath the notice of The Balrog.....for the time.
Maybe 500 Dwarves.
Balin's share was tainted by Smaug, Balin was tainted by this.
The involvement of the Watcher show Sauron was involved in the downfall.
He did not need the Balrog nor do I feel it was his ally. Without actual possession of his ring, could Sauron control it?
Food and Fresh water?
I wish balin or some other dwarf company earlier settled the island of tolfalas
I think that Sauron was behind this is not only probable but likely. As has been pointed out, under normal circumstances why would Balin and his small colony think they could deal with Durin's Bane when the entire city with vastly more warriors couldn't when they first encountered the Balrog.
Balin was possibly blinded by pride. After all, he had survived some pretty crazy things - Smaug's attack, the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, the Quest for Erebor, the Battle of the Five Armies...Perhaps he felt that he could succeed where his ancestors could not.
@@DarthGandalfYT Perhaps but I wonder if something more insidious was at work on Balin; maybe something like what Saruman was doing to Théoden.
MIthril was the main reason: you have to remember that it is the most precious metal in Tolkien world and it is mined only from Moria. The success in Erebor made Balin think that they could reattempt entering the greatest of the dwarves realms and at least take a little bit of the mines back: even a small production of mithril would have massively enhanched their power and put a serious dent in any of Sauron's attempt of conquering Eriador (Balin is far friendlier than most dwarves) and greatly reinforced Lorien. That is why the goblins were there.
I understand why Dain didn't send his own Men and messengers from Erebor its self but I still would have had like a ok if no news comes on the regular we have to atleast go check it out because Dain seen Durins Bane with his own eyes
Idk about you but Balin was balin’
Didn't Gandalf walk through Moria before he was captured by Saruman
Possible
What video game does the imagery come from?
Lord of the Rings Online.
What I want to know is what the Balrog did to pass the time for all those centuries down there. Did he play Solitaire? Cheat at Solitaire?
Spider Solitaire.
@@DarthGandalfYT Sounds good to me!
Non-jokey thought, though. How much time passed with the Balrog down there... with nobody else? Or just orcs and trolls that clearly didn't want to spend time in its presence? With no Morgoth to command it, and arguably tenuous command over the army of goblinorcs, how exactly did this immortal, powerful, intelligent Maia keep itself occupied?
@@johnmorey720 It might have just been sleeping for a lot of that time. It was certainly doing that when the dwarves first woke it up.
A brave mission, but mabye Nirvana wise one.
Manpower? Shouldn't you say dwarfpower?
One of Balin's colony was that it was way too small,he should have had atleast 500 to a 1000 warrior dwarves plus the normal craftsman,miners ect..
Absolutely. And he should have laid the diplomatic groundwork to make sure he had supply lines and some way to retreat if he needed to. Obviously that would mean making contact with the lands west of Moria, given that the east is occupied by elves who have little or no use for dwarves and are preoccupied with other foes. The west is empty land, but it didn't have to be, a long plan would have had a settlement of dwarves, possibly with some men as well, establishing farms and trade routes there to test the waters and draw more numerous dwarven colonists for the eventual occupation of Moria. Even that would fall prey to the balrog eventually, but it might at least have held against the orcs.
Of course, it also would have taken until well after the end of the Third Age to even break into the outer halls of Moria.
@@richardkenan2891 I agree completely brother. Balin had no logistics
Just a small suggestion. Could you please speak a little slower 😉
A fair suggestion. I made a conscious effort in some of my earlier videos but I might be slipping into old habits.