Forgetting the war Thunder thing…. I’m curious if it’s possible there would be a choice to help river or takemura (night city vs corpo) as they developed the game. The original concept they sold us was that choices mattered in the game… and a choice like that would change the course greatly… But CDPR ran out of time :/ Lack of takemura romance Lack of river tie in Lack of choice :(
@@VladK95no one believes me when I say that… they thought only men would play cyberpunk (or mostly men). :/ It’s an issue with a lot of these types of games. Hell, even skyrim back in the day was lacking male choices.
Devil’s Advocate: the Perlzas’ quest line being short and somewhat suddenly shutdown works in its favor-such a dramatic anticlimax deepens the psychological horror of the entire ordeal. Leaving the loose threads hanging also reinforces the whole “Night City always wins” tragedy.
Bingo. At first I felt like something was missing from the Peralez quest. But after my second playthrough I came to the same conclusion…the ambiguous ending deepens the concept.
The objective part of me agrees and thinks it fits the story well but also the human part of me just will forever feel the need to know exactly what and who was behind everything with mr blue eyes and the peralzes
It reminds me of mgsv sometimes with that whole "phantom pain" theory where the anticlimax alongside the knowledge of the cutting room floor like episode 53 and chico adding to the feeling of loss that the game has Or it's just a vibe I feel
If River took up Takemuras roll, saved you at the beginning, then stuck with you through the whole game his romance/friendship makes so much more sense! I might have actually romanced him if that's how it played out
Oh and I would have loved a more stable moderating voice in V's ear. It wasn't until towards the end of phantom Liberty that I considered that all the nameless body's V left behind weren't worth just her survival (So I recently did a nonlethal run which is strangely possible if you don't count the people who jump into your car)
@@TheFlyingPilgrim trur true, it was all the civilians in the stadium when I was rescuing songbird that really got to me (Also I appreciate that you have your grasses on)
Takemura could be a romance for either sex like Meredith(who deserved more time btw). We have almost as much interaction with Goro as we do Johnny and V can playfully flirt with him, and regularly press him to think about how there may be another lifestyle than Arasaka lapdog.
Here is a piping hot take for you. Even though River needed much better pacing in his story and quests I prefer him to implicitly trust V. V. Almost every other romance takes significant time to even warm up to our character, some of them even outright rejecting the idea of a romance at multiple points (not a bad thing) and I like that River stands in contrast to that. A person that we never thought we would see in night City, a person who definitely doesn't belong in night City, and a person who's trying to make it work anyway because he knows this place could do better. Part of that comes with trusting v because they've proven themselves as far as he is concerned.
Despite how awkward it was for his family to ambush you it always gave me the feeling that River only went along with it because he didn't know how to flirt or that he spent so long working his job he had next to no people skills.
I always headcanon that he’s immediately infatuated with V, his personality and experience making it easy for him to trust someone like V more than the other options do at first. It does at least set him apart from the others in a way that’s not negative
Huh, it actually make sense. As I recall V can be kinda playful and even flirty with Takemura in texting, which always leading nowhere and left unacknowledged by Takemura. I always thought it was part of their dynamic like young pup friendly teasing old wolf to his reluctant amusement. But if Takemura was stitched together from new questlines and original River's organs, this conversations would be part of V and River romance and fit much better.
I’m imagining the text where takemura is trying to search for food but is unknowingly texting V, initially belonging to river… it actually kinda fits?! lol
I think Jackie would be the best romance for fem v i don’t think it would be in character for V Takemura and V to be in a relationship. I wish they would’ve scrapped Kerry’s quest line and made Jackie Bisexual and make him an optional prologue romance. Then we would be able to spend time with Jackie instead of it all just being a cutscene. I think Kerry’s quest line is boring and doesn’t add much to the story.
@@reality4saints I think you missed something beyond him not being bisexual that would make a jackie romance weird. you also dont need to have a romance to spend more time with him,,just make more quests with him
It's sad to think that it was cut, I liked his romance a lot, the normalcy and humanity was very immersive and developing for my ex-corpo run. Rather than impacting V's life directly in a huge way and being some "savior", V backseats and gets to observe who he is. Maybe too realistic and boring for some people's tastes, but it changed who my V was for the rest of my playthrough.
My most awkward moment in the game was River's family saying: "Everyone who thinks V and River should be a couple, raise your hand!" And I think my V was the only one who didn't raise her hand...
I wish there was a dialouge option, where V could smooth that over in some way. A smooth line which V could say to dull the awkwardness of that moment, could be locked behind a certain level of the cool stat, to make it more realistic.
It's no better for male V. You are forced to ask Joss if she sees you as having a family and there is no option not to ask it. Why would you ask that if you know you're dying? More to the point, what if you just aren't interested in marriage and kids, ever? (Corpo V hints as much). Ugh.
I think River is a great romantic partner, with a poorly fleshed put romantic plot. Hes a very caring and soft hearted individual, he'll get himself killed to save his family, he's so in love with you that he goes out of his way to learn how to cook after fronting a bit too hard, and he says, or rather texts, my favorite romantic line in the game: "You make me happy V, like that stupid kinda happy." Cause its so relatable, anyone whose really been in a loving relationship has at least thought that once. Its just a shame that hes so underdeveloped. Even though i think him falling for us after literally saving his family and his relationship with his family, is pretty fair, i cant deny that theres just not enough time before or after to really get much more than "caring cop". But its also how much he does with so little that i kinda love, his sincerity, his reflections on how he pushed his sisters side away, his persistence to get his nephew back, him doing the right thing even in the face of being fired or killed (maybe a little too naive on his part, that could def get Joss and her kids in trouble at some point), it all comes together to make a very loveable person, just not a really fleshed out person. I still love him, hes a great person, has a great voice and physique, and i personally love his s*x scene, just tryna keep it down in the moment of passion. Hes got plenty of flaws, like how its implied he asked his sister for help (though i think its just as reasonable his sisters tired of seeing him single, know my families like that), and ive heard he has a pretty petty reaction to being turned down, ive mever turned him down, but if thats true, its a very fair strike against him. But i also wouldnt say these flaws overhsadow the others flaws, Panams hot headedness and temper, Judies lack of careful thinking and impulsiveness, and Kerrys ego and how he only liked you at the start cause he wanted to be closer to Johnny.
Many people say River is plain and boring, but honestly, for a normal life, he would be the best pick. I like him, because despite being robbed of the questline that links him to the main quest and developing a natural relationship, he is cute, not full of drama, a family person and not too impulsive.
Not a great option to fall in love after that case it's lije trauma bonding was my furst reaction I didn't expect to romance option it just seems lije it had cut contact.
This is why I loved him for my V. My V was a nomad and I imagine she was just handed around from caretaker to caretaker within her clan, no real family ties. With River, she saw the opportunity for a real family she could join. Just for it to fall apart because of her fear of Relic. Wonderfully tragic and a great depressing cherry on top to end my V's story.
I like to befriend the romanceable characters, but to romance them? Nah. V is dying, so anyone you romance will probably be left behind after V´s death. In the case of River Ward, he does not even know about V´s condition, when he and V sit together at that tower. I wish there was an option to tell him there and then, but no. I could either reject him or romance him, without telling him first. I felt that I had to reject him, since entering into a relationship with him without telling him that I was dying would be dishonest.
@lydiscott Might seem I just parrot what you say in the video but I typed the comment five seconds after you uploaded. So, nice to see we kind of have the same opinion on River. 😅
I played Baldur's Gate immediately after Cyberpunk, fell for Wyll immediately, and had a crushing sense of deja vu later... At least the romance was better.
Same. Like, i don't hate River, and i think he would be an amazing and loyal friend to V. But he goes from 0-100 too fast for my liking, to a point where his sudden feelings come across as really weird and pushy. Luckily there's a mod that changes his watertower scene for female V - if you don't put up your hand when the kid asks "do you think V and River would make a good couple", then he takes the hint and doesn't try to initiate romance at the top of the watertower. I find that version of River much more palatable.
It seems like a good choice that Takemura replaced him, but it's a shame he was included so late. I would lose interest in Judy if there were a Takemura romance. Him going nomad with V would have wrapped up his character arc quite nicely
I wish we got the "River saves V" thing.... i can even see how it could be done without removing Takemura... Takemura could be easily included in the part where Rogue tracks Helman. How? Make him find Dex, torture him for info off screen, and end up involved because tracking Helman would give him access to V for the Arasaka questline. (Cause Dex would prob tell him V is the one who was in Konpeki, so he'd know you saw the whole murder thing)
"Takemura got all the character development." Literally my exact same thought when it comes to Jackie too. You literally get to know him after he dies. I only felt sad for Jackie in so far as "I never knew him personally, but I can tell he had a good heart" not "My best friend died in my arms." sad.
Honestly, Jackie's death might have painted him in a sympathetically skewed light considering that we really only knew him for like 6 months. AND he only hung out with us because he found out we were pretty good at stuff.
Jackie was such a failed concept because like a quarter of the story is based on Jackie. The first rule of storytelling is "show dont tell" and instead of showing the Jackie relationship they just told us "YEAH V HAD VERY GOOD FRIEND NAME IS JACKIE DEAL WITH IT" The game could as well been split into two parts, one with Jackie where you build that friendship and other with Johny.
The Peralez questline abrupt ending works in it favor imo, it just leaves you with so many questions that a danger is looming around and you can't do anything about it. River on the other hand suffers a lot from the whole cut & rework of his character. It would have been great if they added at least 1 or 2 missions of him becoming a PI (or vigilant?), instead of it being just text exchanges and only available if you romance him...
Besides the missing elephant(s) in the room, River’s perception is also hurt by how his quests are far more interesting than he is. Of the four romancable characters, he not only has the shortest questline but those two quests have barely anything to do with him personally. The first has more to do with the seedy background politics of Night City-he’s barely more than a bystander-and the second is a noir-esque hunt. Oh, and these have nothing to do with the main story. I’m more invested in his sister’s unique struggles than his own. Heck, the whole bit about the NCPD experiencing on autistic kids hit me harder than anything else in the game.
I agree with everything you said in this video. I don't play as a gay V or a female V but I can definitely see that there is a lacking gutted story there. This also has a lacking "Best Bro" story. After losing Jackie, this could have been a great story about finding more mature and stable friendships. Leaving the street kid or nomad chaos life or the grand luxury of corpo life to find something more. Missed opportunity.
@@lydiscott Maybe we will see growth from CD Projekt Red With Orion? I don't know, I work in the Tech industry and there is a lot of stuff that I am seeing that doesn't give me confidence. Typically, when a new project that is related to a old project is beginning. You don't move the senior developers away from that project to help on another, you only move mid-level engineers and developers. Product manager should not be jumping from project project. And I saw a lot of people that are on The Witcher development team. In fact, it is all hands on Deck 4. That game. A lot of the lessons are going to be forgot because they are no longer working on the game. Out of sight, out of mind. And the studio expansion is now international rather than centralized. That makes things very difficult when you're moving to a whole different engine and coding language. Very bad in my opinion.
I think them enhancing Judy’s plot-line and rewriting River’s original arc into Takemura’s was a stroke of creative genius because it serves the narrative in a much better way. That’s an aspect of great writing, knowing when a character isn’t working as intended and therefore opting for someone else who makes more sense in the story that is taking shape even if it wasn’t the story originally planned.
As a straight male, I left exploring Kerry and River romances to my, well, 10th or so playthrough. Before that, I thought Judy vs Panam was a more or less balanced choice, but now I can't put aside the thought that romances are strongly and unfairly gender-biased, in terms of the resources vs responsibilities the partner offers to a protagonist. MascV gets a powerful war chieftain leading a strong loyal clan, or a filthy rich world-level rockstar, both of whom have their life problems generally sorted long before or during the romance questline. After that, they don't actually rely on V's help in anything major yet have a lot of power and influence to back their partner instead. FemV gets a broken cop whose career and private life were a complete failure, or an idealistic artist whose plans to make the world a better place meet a failure after a failure after a failure. Don't get me wrong, Judy is adorable, but both of them feel like you get a person to care for, rather than a person to shine with. Altogether if I ask the question "What internal need does the partner fulfill for V" it seems like "MascV has ambitions, while FemV has the urge to have pity and look after" which is dangerously close to patriarchal stereotypes. A consideration that the original River could have stayed in the NCPD to back up his crusade gets him a bit of an advantage in my eyes, but canonically that didn't happen. Do you think I got something wrong here?
I mostly agree, but as a gay man, I'm still almost exclusively drawn to the Panam relationship dynamic. Kerry was cool, but didn't really feel like there was any real feelings behind it. It came across as mostly physical to me. Panam came across as a real ride or die, in fact she's the only one who actually HELP'S V... They could've really expanded on using the romance partners in the endings. River could use police resources to help, Judy could use her cyber skills, Kerry could use his network of fans as he did to get the equipment for the van gig, and his wealth and other resources. But they didn't help at all, and the only real happy feeling ending is the one where you ride off with the Aldecaldos. All in all, it's quite clear that Panam was meant to be your main romance and likely the canon ending is leaving with her. All that to say that everyone else feels shallow in comparison.
@@tswooten I would rather separate Panam's help in the ending from her romance story, since it happens regardless of whether you romanced her or someone else. I didn't actually consider how the romance affects the final mission, but rather what would happen if it succeeded in "they lived happily ever after". But since you've brought it up, we now have to include Johnny in the list xD Romancing him opens the secret ending where no one dies for our salvation, which I believe is as happy as a ride off into the sunset with nomads.
@@collegatore Valid, though for me what I'm saying is Panam is the only one who actually felt like a "happily ever after" because of that. So either they could've added more options for happy ending immersion by including the other partners in the endings, or omit it altogether. It's just the obvious uneven treatment of the overall outcomes that felt shallow with the others.
@@collegatore You dont romance him thought, you just become friends, and the ending isn't exactly happy either especialy if you romanced Judy. If Panam ending is about leaving the corruption of Night city behind and living off your last days happy and free, than the secret one is about fully embracing the grind, where V continues to risk his life and climb higher even when he becomes the most legendary NC merc refusing to settle down
I agree with you that River's a character that had potential, but was the victim of last-minute decisions. I never hated River, but it felt like he was an afterthought. Like the devs needed a het male relationship for femmeV, and he was "available." As well written as Judy's arc is, or Panam's, River's feels totally lacking. Worse, if your V is not interested in guys, it gets very awkward. Now knowing what was done to bring in Goro by cutting out some of River's content, it does make more sense. But I'll always feel like River was done dirty
My issue with River is that even after dating Judy and made clear that my character is a lesbian. The game still forces me to talk about past boyfriends and have River acting like I was leading him on when every interaction I always picked the least romantic dialogue while still being friendly.
@@JohanDanielsson8802 I know and that's total valid for V to be bi. Just I'm lesbian and just wanted my V to be pure lesbian without getting romance backstory thrown onto me.
@@dillydraws I hear you, and even if I am a straight dude, I absolutely agree that it felt like unnecessarily forced backstory when V talked about her past boyfriends.
I wonder if that bit about their past is Life Path specific? I almost always go the Nomad route and I seem to remember V telling a story about her first kiss being in a corn field or something but I am pretty sure there is zero mention of the gender of the person she was with. Interesting. I get why that could rub people the wrong way. For me the cringe was him telling his family about his crush first and the awkward dinner and then him getting all salty if you turn him down. The whole think made an interesting character feel like an immature teenager.
River reminded me of a short tabletop campaign where the gamemaster flipped the script and made a police campaign set in the 2020 era after getting the police sourcebook. There were three players playing variations of cops, one playing a white hat Netrunner and I played a fixer running both sides of the street. The scenarios included defusing a potential gang war, running down a malicious hacker that ruined people lives who truned out to be a sociopathic fourteen year old, a cyberpsycho hostage situation, with the final one being tracking down a stolen package that Arasaka and Militech were both after which turned out to be a new prototype version of Soulkiller that could be deployed wirelessly. That last one had a lot of twists including the NUSA federal agent feeding us info via text and phone call turned out to be a false identity for AI Alt Cunningham who convinced us to destroy the prototype and stolen research files rather than turn them in as they were too dangerous to let anyone have.
There are three "golden eras"of my gaming career. Two under excellent GMs and one where I was the GM experienced in the examples of the previous two. The first one was in grade and high school was a Cyberpunk and old school D&D era. Been a Pondsmith fan since 1988, when the original Cyberpunk 2013 setting was released.
And that ressurceted a rather timely memory. The potential gang war scenario was the first one we did as cops. One player's charcater mouthed off in the in-universe briefing why we should care about two gangs shooting each other to death in the Combat Zones. The gamemaster's through the in-universe briefing officer shouted at him, "90% of people in the Combat Zones are people who can't afford to leave just trying to get enough to feed themselves and their kids. If you can just write them off as deserving to be at the mercy of amped up psychopaths' violent urges because you don't like their where their street address is, you don't to deserve to wear that uniform!" A speech cops today should be getting.
If I had a nickel every time I romanced a nice one-eyed black guy, whom I liked for his "hero" archerype, only to be disappointed by the lack of character development and overall story for said character; and later found out that a lot of his story was cut and the character was drastically changed from a more interesting and intertwined with the main plot original version, - I would have two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird it happened twice.
@Xxsorafan shit, I scrolled to the end of his Wiki page and he is. Sorry, I am from Eastern Europe and I have had little exposure to Native American people, and his clothing, hairstyle and face look like a mixed black man to me, though I did wonder why his sister and nephews don't look black. That would explain it. Does he talk about his roots in any of the dialogues? I can't seem to remember any( I really hope I didn't say anything offensive! Thanks a lot for pointing it out for me.
@ it’s okay I was just confused lol. I can’t remember if he mentions his heritage but the devs confirmed him and Panam are Native American. What tipped me off was his feather necklace though
@@Xxsorafan yeah, after your comment I noticed that detail, too) To be fair, none of us are obligated to look like a stereotypical caricature of our culture. It's nice to have indigenous representation, even if it does ruin my comment a little bit) thanks again, I am glad I learned that River is Native American)
To me it felt like river was never supposed to be a romance character but just a regular side quest. Only when CDPR ran out of time they tagged on a rushed romance option in the end because they cut the 4th romance character entirely.
If you feel like River has missing romance content, you wouldn’t even believe what was cut from the beta. Originally you were intended to manipulate River from his ex-girlfriend who you meet during the quest where you save his nephew. If you didn’t he would reject you much the same way he does when you are male. I’m not sure if there’s any leftovers in the vode of this but it might warrant a look. Great video!
His romance definitely got cut content or last minute thrown in. To me bonding and getting into a relationship after that messed up crime case felt so off to me. Like not a great way to start a romance.
I've long held the suspicion that the wild cgi trailers we got in the lead up to release were all based on earlier versions of the plot. If so, I wonder if originally it wasn't going to be V that killed DeShawn (in the hotel), and River/Sobcheck eventually finding V in the scrapyard hunting down an already dead Dex. Possibly there was going to be more going on between the end of the heist and getting killed? That section of the game has always felt *extremely* weird, like a 40ish minute block of dialogue and cutscenes with almost nothing else going on. Act structure of the game is so weird, too-- there *had* to have been more going on in act 1 at some point.
With all these years of hindsight from cyberpunks release you can really see the areas left unfinished by the rushed development. Its a shame what happened with river. I was hoping he'd provide a window into the NCPD and whats it like trying to enforce law and order in a place like Night City. I guess we can only hope that CDPR gets a crunchless and more thorough development schedule for their next project
Thank you so much for shedding light on the behind-the-scenes development of River Ward. Your explanation really clarifies why his character feels somewhat underdeveloped compared to others. River is easily missable because, unlike more integral characters, his involvement in the main story is quite minimal and loosely connected. The romance, as you pointed out, feels rushed and lacks the natural build-up seen in other relationships. I also found the dinner with his family particularly awkward. As a female V, it's obvious the family is pushing you and River together, which feels forced. Meanwhile, as a male V, it seems like his sister is asking for herself, which makes the whole interaction even more uncomfortable in my opinion. I can't wait to see your deep dive into the Peralez storyline-fantastic video!
I just did River as a romance a few weeks ago for the first time and yeah as much as I love him as a character, he felt so much more disconnected to the main story in comparison to Judy, Panam, and Kerry as a romance option.
Yesterday I finished the River quest and the diner with him. I loved him and I had told myself that i have to watch videos on him to see i missed anything. And just a few hours after, not even one day, you made this. Thank you.
I like that you mentioned River reminds Garrus a little bit because I had the same feeling. It seems like they come from the same archetype - an honest cop within the corrupt system wanting to make a difference. Both even end up with vigilanty justice in mind. Althouth, Garrus receives moral guidence from Shepard, and River seems to be capable to make that call on his own. May be that would be a part of a lost questline of River.
Part of what I like the least about River is he doesn't even seem to care if you treat him like trash, I was rude to him in every dialog option and he STILL wanted to get with me. Why? It made him feel so much less like a "real" character to me and just as someone put there to be a romance option
I did always feel like both male romance partners (River and Kerry) got the short end of the stick compared to the females personally. Both Panam and Judy are shoved down our throats at regular intervals throughout V's journey (not in a bad way, just saying), while River is essentially a side-note with his own story in a completely optional sidequest, and Kerry isn't really introduced to us until much later in the game's main story arc, at which point V is already halfway on death's door, so to speak. I like both characters for who they are and what they bring to the table personally, but they both get far less 'meaningful' screen time in my opinion. This definitely hurts how much we (or me anyway) can grow attached to either of them compared to Panam and Judy, even though I do like both of them and wish we could have seen more (or maybe just earlier in the plot in Kerry's case).
At 13:39 for the reference, I BELIEVE there is another one. If you have a male V and call Judy on good terms after she leaves NC, there is a choice in one of the phone calls where she tells you about the Peralezes and V will say something like "already met them". Im a little fuzzy as I've done 5 different playthroughs with different choices. Great Video, thumbs up 👍🏽
The comparison to Garrus wasnot unfair. River romance feels a bit like watching one of these youtube vids with some scenes from the MR-trilogy. But it feels incomplete so you sigh and start another playthrough. But there's no other playthrough for River. This is what we got.
While the quest is rushed, I will say it almost feels perfect for River as a character. He rushes things, he never really waits, always jumping on his toes, a cat always trying to catch the newest string. Our first introduction to him ends with him just ousting and practically threatening his partner, he has trouble of thinking what to do next because it is not something he does. When the kidnapper of his nephew is caught, he scrambles to get V to help him instead of thinking it all through, always thinking on his toes with new information. In his line of work, this is both a blessing and a curse. Being able to piece together information so quickly is incredibly useful, the problem with it is that he does not think ahead of the plan, that is not his job as a detective. He is there to collect and provide evidence, not really meant to be in the fray of things. So, while I am not saying the rushed questline is good, I will say it is rather in character with how River is. Like an actual river, he is always in a rush.
I'm one of those that, despite the short time with him, still like River.. as a friend :P I do agree that him being in love with V came so fast, but I just chalk it up to V being instrumental in saving his nephew and that's he fell for V fast. It also kinda helps that in the Nomad ending where V leaves Night City and you chose to have a relationship with River beforehand, he chooses to stay in Night City rather than go with you. So at the end, he prioritizes his sense of duty than the romance he just found with V. The only reason that I didn't like the romance with him is that when it came to flirting with V, he just seemed like a little boy who's lost on what to do xD It's like he lost all his masculinity lol. Which is funny considering that he's 40yo and they changed V's age to 23 in update 2.0, which I'm really not a fan of btw. It's another topic for discussion, but V's original age being 28 makes so much more sense than 23 considering that the people they befriend or meet in the game are all in their late 20s and above. I think the youngest is Misty who's 26.
Thank you so much for making this video. I've romanced River in each playthrough pre PL content (corpo and nomad completed, comp crashed before could complete street kid) and each time I always felt there was so much more missing. Good to know I'm not the only one. My god, how much different would the game had been if they hadn't made the revisions?! That story I would be interested in!
Ya know, i thought i just didn't like Rivers romance because im a heterosexual dude but then i did Kerry's romance and realized that River is genuinely just the absolute worst romance in the game
I am and will forever be pissed Takemura isn't a romance option. LET ME ANNOY HIM CDPR, GOD DAMN IT. IT'S MY LOVE LANGUAGE. ♪~ ᕕ(ᐛ)ᕗ Literally the biggest tragedy of the game. I liked River a lot but 1000% agree the romance hits you like a sucker punch in the back of the head and I was like BRO I literally just met you and also am already dating Judy. I just wanted to bro out with him more than anything, like having food was fun and some of my favourite bits in the game are the dumber things like grabbing a drink with someone-but mainly annoying Takemura is the best best bits (づ￣ ³￣)づ River's whole thing just does a breakneck romance for a female V without actually giving you a chance to even establish if you're interested (I mean if you're a lesbian it's borderline traumatizing. If you know, you know. Even as a bi person, I was like... jaysus, can we just have a beer, this got way too intense way too fast). And it's unfortunate, because his character definitely had a very different kind of nuance that just gets lost in it. Imo it would work a lot better if there's some kind of optional mission after his main story where you get to go do something stupid / wild (ie. like when you and Kerry go fuck up that dude's boat, lmao) and you can either opt to go down a flirty line or just be homies, and THEN you can do the whole water tower thing, so at least there's some in-between. Judy's had a nice progression like that where you get to actually chill with her, but also River is kind of the only one who doesn't have his storyline heavily woven into the main one, so I think we miss out on a LOT because he's more of a side-side character, whereas Judy, Panam, and Kerry all have pretty heavily involved main-plot parts of the game on top of their own storylines. But I goddamn want that sexy tempura boi. #NeverForgive (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
I actually liked River as a potential romance option. True, it was rushed, but I felt that made sense both for V and for River. They both have been through a lot and I did perceive River's advances more as him... longing for someone, anyone, he felt connected to. Which was funny, since I felt V was coming from a similar place with all the loss and stuff going on in her life at the time, and just longed for some kind of comfort. In the end, I refused him at the last moment, cause what hit me is that River was just starting to get his life back together, and V was dying, so she didn't wanted to be with him cause she feared that, if she died, River could just unravel, maybe because she was projecting on him how she felt, that she just couldn't bear losing someone else she cared about. So yeah, pretty unhealthy, but it was really interesting, and even if that was all in my head, I felt it as one of the more authentic roleplaying moments I ever had in a game. Even with all that, it's a shame it wasn't given more space.
I can see that happening, after several playthroughs you start to see how the game was basically stitched together the best they could, I mean the 3rd act is basically non existent and the ending were left open and unfinished, everything is so abrupt. Good video tho, very interesting stuff.
I still like River, but i wish we could get THAT River, who saved us at the dumpster. I remember reading he was supposed to be there right after the game came out and realized how much was cut. And he looks way hotter on the old arts.
River's story also felt natural to me when I played--a solid-headed ex-cop who latches on to you in a time of crisis, but with one glaring weak point in having absolutely no practice with romance and being reeeeally bad at it.
I've said it before, and I understand it'd probably be tough to record a bunch of unique dialog but I wish you could team up with companions for just normal exploration. it'd be nice to be able to have like a social link type meter that builds as you do more missions with each companion that then unlocks their companion missions. like you should have to earn those missions. would've loved to get to know more about river but I agree he was absolutely rushed.
i think you could have seen river tied into the main story in one way or another. my suggestion would be probably have him show up trying to find info on XBD/BD's and needing V to do it because he sticks out as a cop. this could tie into the shady gentleman in the storage area of jig jig street or even tie in the watson XBD operation you can take out as part of a gig. you just have the hunch be something small like just a slightly odd timestamp when the BD was used before death, or even that no BD wreath was noted at the scene of his suppossed death or something so he'd show up and be the one asking the BD dealer about hardcore BDs and such. alternetives are making him part of the quest to find Evaline in the clouds portion.
Its a good idea, they always talk about how heavily XBDs are edited, but when we look for Evelyn they forgot to edit out a coat with a name of a place they in? C'mon, you don't make such mistakes in that kind of business
I believe River/Sobchak was investigating Arasaka's Project Ghost, back when the main story was quite different and River's involvement as a detective made sense, but obviously this was no longer possible in the Relic storyline and Takemura's character was needed. Oh speaking of Takemura, you should make a video on the original Phantom Liberty ending. It was interesting, to say the least.
I remember when the game had first came out, my lesbian V had already started dating Judy when I did the River quest. It felt like the story was insisting my V was bi and tried pressuring me into a relationship out of nowhere. It weirded me out so much that to this day I'm still hesitant to start Rivers questline because I know not a darn thing has changed. I would like to point out, that in giant projects like this, that has its creation span a decade, it is not simply writing v. editing. Stories go back and forth between the two so many times as production goes on. Scope has to be reevaluated and the applied meets the theoretical. So i would argue that what we have left of River is poorly written as what made it whole was carved out and repurposed elsewhere. The hard part about Frankensteining the story like they did, is that the way the story escalates could be excusable if not for the disperate tone which just leaves River coming off as a manipulative abuser if you are female V and reject his advances which doesn't pair with his overall character presentation. An oversight, i hope, but really what ruined the character for me.
It's funny, in my playthrough with female V the River "romance" never felt unfinished - I did his quests long before I got to know Judy. The way the River questline proceeded felt urgent and and both RIver and V could really use to blow off some steam by the end. So the hookup happens and I tell River I'm dying and currently not thinking about serious relationships. Both are ok with this. Sounds quite relatable and believable to me. Of course, my V underestimated how awesome and irresistable Judy turns out to be. Judy is the reason why I can't bring myself to view Cyberpunk 2077 as a dystopia... because despite all, it is still a world that produces people like Judy :)
I was waiting for you to mention the Breaking Bad reference on his roof! And that hilariously bad family photo at the hospital before it got patched out
AHHH yeah I haven’t watched breaking bad yet!!! Still on the list! And oh god I vaguely remember that picture I thought I was crazy when it didn’t show up this time around!
@@TheKazragore I mean at first, River's hospital picture is hilariously low effort before they patched in a better looking one you'll get today. Look it up. Fans won't let that picture fade away is all I'm saying!
Damn... I told the boys to cover their tracks. 😆 River is the only character susceptible to romance to whom V doesn't confess the nature of his condition regarding the Relic. (At least, in the way the final game was launched). Even V confesses this to Sol Reed, who is not romanceable, which automatically makes River feel like a more "external" character. less committed to V. Even, there could be a possible narrative arc about a "scientific solution" to the Relic issue, and that is why there's a small dialogue with Yawen Packard about the Relic. But it's a dead end in the base game. That Philip is Philipp Weber, narrative director in CDPR.
@@vladconstantinminea I only played female V on my first run which was at least a dozen updates ago. The male V runs were much later and I don't recall the dinner and conversation being as awkward. I don't know if the later updates patched something or messed something up perhaps?
You invoked a name I did not expect but absolutely would love to see you to do a video on, Garrus Vakarian. Honestly videos on the entire crew would be amazing. Thank you.
Imo the thing that harms Rivers romance the most is the fact that he’s the only one that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the main plot of the game. Judy and Panam both have long, detailed, main story quest lines, Kerry is Johnny’s best friend with some main story cameos, and River is… some guy. His romance isn’t just locked behind a substory. It’s locked behind a substory, locked behind another substory, locked behind a third substory only activated by a randomized phone call unlocked at some point in the middle of Act 2.
A River-V buddy cop dynamic investigating Arasaka would have been so much fun. Through the NCPD you could also get alot more insight into one of the hingepoints of Cyberpunk lore which is the interaction between a nominally independent political administration and its security forces and the Corps and their private security forces.
What I find very interesting is, that as nomad V, after Evelyn ends herself, you can pick a dialog option in wich V says something like "Welcome to Night City, where your adress tells everything about you." and Judy answeres "We should have never come here in the first place." Her answer feels a bit of. Who is we? Maybe she and her grandparents, but she says it so personal at you. Was Judy originally planed as a nomad, who was supposed to come with you to NC in the intro? The scraping or cutting of Rivers story gave place for her as she is now in the finished game, but it is quite sad to see the lost potential on Rivers part to the story as a whole.
Great Video Lydi, I hadn’t heard of the cut River content so it was cool to hear more about it! As it stands I think he is the worst romance in the game and that includes a dude who is 50-70 years older than your character. He would have been very memorable as a side character like the Peralez’s but making him a romance cheapens him. Looking forward to the video on the Peralez’s!
AGREED the romance is the fatal nail in this coffin. IT SUCKS AHH and omg I’m very excited for it too!!! I love how creepy those quests feel, especially with all the AI theories pertaining to it
My first play through went as Male V, I romanced Panam, but I haven’t gotten to the dinner scene yet with River, to me, Male V and River just felt like a buddy cop dynamic, while River is the grizzled vet and V being the rookie essentially, despite my V already being max level with 50 street cred haha, but I agree with everyone, either Takemura should’ve been the romance option for Female V or have River take Takemura’s place so he could get more development
To be honest, I would have sacrificed all of River's quests to get some more scenes with Takemura. I have no interest in Takemura romantically, but I still found him to be one of the most compelling characters in the game, and wish he wasn't suddenly removed from the story after the parade.
ty Lyds, personally I find River awesome compared to the other romance options (yep, tried them all), but it feels like he has had the least care put into him. However, since I can't have Viktor, he's my choice.
I really wish they didn’t cut his content. He’s shown to have a hero complex, realize he’s been neglecting his family for work, and resourceful enough to help V find leads towards Arasakas route. Those ingredients and more could have made him a more impactful character equal to Judy and Panam
11:20 only halfway through the video, but just realized, given rivers original name seeming slavic/russian, could hint that the randy storyline was originally gonna be saving him from scavs?
Thanks for the video! I don't entirely dislike River as a character, and I find the forced romance actually a little funny, like something an overbearing family would do so I had no problem looking past it even though I had no intention of romancing him and he has one sentence that's a bit grating when you reject him, but the real friction point for me is that whatever final result we got feels really flat and boring. At least in the "good" ending, Jesus failing his quest leads to bleak results but he's actually interesting in his final call there. Maybe that's due, as you say, to him getting a lot of character progression "stolen" cause the final result is the most uninteresting major NPC. And it's funny because you're right, there's a lot of parallels between female V's two potential romances and I really like Judy so it's likely that with a bit more work, I'd have liked River too. As things stand, I sadly only really love the other three romance option.
One more thing a fun fact the VA for River was supposed to be Male V but was fired from the job if you watch the trailer from 2018 its River voice. He was brought back as River maybe that's why a lot of things got cut because of the VA
The game went through a variety of radical quality of life changes just within the past 2 years or so, and I'm not even talking about the add-ons from Phantom Liberty. Maybe the devs are also dissatisfied with what became of River. We know Keanu Reeves would reprise his role as Johnny for peanuts at this point, so who knows. Perhaps the skeleton crew left making small occasional patches might drop us something big that's all about River and Takemura.
I actually felt the same but since it as my first play through, I thought the game bugged me out of the bonding quests. Like, as is? The end of the Peter Pan quest could've worked as is, but between that and the romance quest, we could have used more ground.
Very interesting stuff. I was familiar with River’s origins as Sobchek, although I hadn’t heard any of the River-Goro connection stuff before. I certainly agree that, despite the very interesting questline, River’s character isn’t developed as much as Judy and Panam, or even Goro. And I agree that his romance leaves something to be desired. I don’t really like it, however, when people use the term “cut content” for what appears to be the normal process of editing and revision. It suggests something nefarious, like removing finished questlines to sell later as DLC, rather than what it is, part of an entirely honest process of making the best game possible. Could River had been better developed with more quest lines? Yes? But, given how late in the process the changes were made, the game would have taken even longer to create, and cost even more money, and neither is unlimited. Unlike a book, which costs the writer a couple dollars for pens and a couple dollars for notebooks; video games are expensive. They are (usually) a collaboration between many people, unlike a book which is just the author (or maybe a collaboration between the author(s) and their editor). Video games are a lot more like cinema, which is a massive collaboration between many people, with separate pre-production, production, and post-production processes. In editing a film, often what an actor considers to be their best performance is lost in the editing suite because the film as a whole is better for it. It’s not “cut content”; it’s just the nature of any medium where time and money aren’t unlimited.
Hey! Do you think you'll make a video about Engrams and Vs stream of consciousness? Like about the whole concept of oneself? I finished the game a few weeks back and in my opinion when V jacks into Mikoshi it's over for the OG V, stream of consciousness ends and they are dead and the Engram wakes up with all of the memories thinking it is the original. Just wondering about your thoughts! I'm new to your channel so if you already talked about it in a video I'm sorry! Anyway great videos, keep it up! :)
I'm convinced that Judy and Panam were meant to be the canon romances. River and Kerry seemed to be added in at the last minute, so players could have a bit more variety. Shame....both River and Kerry could've had way more potential
IMO, the issue of River romance is not really that it is so sudden and comes out of left field - I can easily imagine him being so impressed by V (she is really an impressive person and even if player chooses to not confide much to him during the quests, you can easily assume that River is talented and shrewd enough to dig stuff about V on his own) that he just fall for her completely. The issue is that devs wanted to have their cake but also ate it. They still tried to frame this out of left field romance/crush/infatuation as something that supposed to be natural and expected. Basically, what this romance needs is one precursor scene to Water tower where River drops the bomb on V in some random place at some random time and then it leads to this awkward family dinner/water tower scene only if V reciprocates/doesn't shoot him down immediately.
I thought that River was not a stand in father and was like never around, until he met V. That was expressed through actual in game dialogue from his family, im pretty sure about that.
TBH I thought I made a few too many bad choices to get the romance options for River ( I played male V BTW) happy to see it was just a out of left sudden romance option I was just trying to see where these missions would get me
On a narrative note here's a question I keep asking myself. Who!e noir style fiction with a few good people holding a corrupt system together with great sacrifice is compelling storytelling, is it a good example? Would it be better to let the system crash and reboot rather than prolonging it in the long term?
Yeah River is defo a half baked character. It would've made more sense if River found V and took her to Vik he could've been investigating Saka and following up on the heist after working under cover or something. You could of had Takemura meet V in the back ally he could've been a mole for the ncpd after finding out about the nuke his boss wanted to drop on NC. Would've made more sense to have River meet V in the Diner Talemura sticks out like a sore thumb. I adore this game but it still has buckets of potencial just beneath the surface. I'd love to see V in the next game and see all the Surviving characters return in new and creative ways defo more social content around gigs and maybe not a ticking time bomb in your head so you don't feel like you have to rush around as much 😅
I don’t understand why V is so unsure and negative about her relationship with River when the opposite seems true for the other partners. Hes so sweet and makes me want to dive head first into love with him!
I think River's romance is ok if player is into him since the Peralez's introduction quest. You can see some chemistry and occasional hints in subsequent quests between River and V (like when Johnny jokes about V's desire to polish policeman's badge or V commenting on hard-willed women surrounding River through his life). However, i understand that River's last quest can become nasty for female V that is not interested in romancing him as you are basically forced into awkward interactions. I mean, it makes sense since River is the only romance option that actually chases after V, not the other way around. Also - it is very in touch with real life relationships. There's a lot of misunderstandings and awkward interactions between two young people all the time. So, River's questline has problems, but i think River in his current state is just the most realistic, non-idealistic romance option. Yes, he doesn't stand out like others and it's understandable if it doesn't interest you.
Playing as a female V you either get stuck with a selfish non caring brat like Judy or you get with a rushed awkward incel cop. Male V has the best options, very well written characters (Panam and Kerry)
Tbh, I thought his quest was pretty kino it would have been cool when he was talking about becoming a P.I., he'd as you to join him depending on how the quest went rather than a romance it would be a friendship & a way to generate radiant NCPD investigate jobs.
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My kid's been playing, I'll pick it up again.
Forgetting the war Thunder thing….
I’m curious if it’s possible there would be a choice to help river or takemura (night city vs corpo) as they developed the game. The original concept they sold us was that choices mattered in the game… and a choice like that would change the course greatly…
But CDPR ran out of time :/
Lack of takemura romance
Lack of river tie in
Lack of choice :(
You instantly knew when Panam and Judy romance questline is so fleshed out and very organic compared to River's which felt so rushed
Yaaaa it’s so sad!
it feels like River almost goes from unknow to lover in 3 days
Almost like the game was made by Poles catering to men or something
@@VladK95no one believes me when I say that… they thought only men would play cyberpunk (or mostly men). :/
It’s an issue with a lot of these types of games. Hell, even skyrim back in the day was lacking male choices.
River didn't have a chance. Panam, Judy, and Kerry have more pizzazz. It's not even a fair comparison.
Devil’s Advocate: the Perlzas’ quest line being short and somewhat suddenly shutdown works in its favor-such a dramatic anticlimax deepens the psychological horror of the entire ordeal. Leaving the loose threads hanging also reinforces the whole “Night City always wins” tragedy.
Agreed!!!
Bingo. At first I felt like something was missing from the Peralez quest. But after my second playthrough I came to the same conclusion…the ambiguous ending deepens the concept.
The objective part of me agrees and thinks it fits the story well but also the human part of me just will forever feel the need to know exactly what and who was behind everything with mr blue eyes and the peralzes
Very well put!
It reminds me of mgsv sometimes with that whole "phantom pain" theory where the anticlimax alongside the knowledge of the cutting room floor like episode 53 and chico adding to the feeling of loss that the game has
Or it's just a vibe I feel
If River took up Takemuras roll, saved you at the beginning, then stuck with you through the whole game his romance/friendship makes so much more sense! I might have actually romanced him if that's how it played out
Oh and I would have loved a more stable moderating voice in V's ear. It wasn't until towards the end of phantom Liberty that I considered that all the nameless body's V left behind weren't worth just her survival
(So I recently did a nonlethal run which is strangely possible if you don't count the people who jump into your car)
@@aidenpopour594Those people were super borged out and they are trying to kill you. It’s a little easier to excuse those kills.
@@TheFlyingPilgrim trur true, it was all the civilians in the stadium when I was rescuing songbird that really got to me
(Also I appreciate that you have your grasses on)
Yea considering the devs also said takemura was added late in the game, River was probably going to be the one that rescues V initially
The greatest crime is that takemura, as he is, wasn't the F-V male romance option. Dude was hot.
AGREED LOL
I can never forgive cdpr for that 😤
@@wogsi I'd find it weird:( lol
I wish we could see him romance mama Welles lol
@@squallthegriever wtf dude
Takemura could be a romance for either sex like Meredith(who deserved more time btw). We have almost as much interaction with Goro as we do Johnny and V can playfully flirt with him, and regularly press him to think about how there may be another lifestyle than Arasaka lapdog.
Here is a piping hot take for you. Even though River needed much better pacing in his story and quests I prefer him to implicitly trust V. V. Almost every other romance takes significant time to even warm up to our character, some of them even outright rejecting the idea of a romance at multiple points (not a bad thing) and I like that River stands in contrast to that. A person that we never thought we would see in night City, a person who definitely doesn't belong in night City, and a person who's trying to make it work anyway because he knows this place could do better. Part of that comes with trusting v because they've proven themselves as far as he is concerned.
Couldn't have said it better myself
Despite how awkward it was for his family to ambush you it always gave me the feeling that River only went along with it because he didn't know how to flirt or that he spent so long working his job he had next to no people skills.
I always headcanon that he’s immediately infatuated with V, his personality and experience making it easy for him to trust someone like V more than the other options do at first. It does at least set him apart from the others in a way that’s not negative
Huh, it actually make sense. As I recall V can be kinda playful and even flirty with Takemura in texting, which always leading nowhere and left unacknowledged by Takemura. I always thought it was part of their dynamic like young pup friendly teasing old wolf to his reluctant amusement. But if Takemura was stitched together from new questlines and original River's organs, this conversations would be part of V and River romance and fit much better.
I’m imagining the text where takemura is trying to search for food but is unknowingly texting V, initially belonging to river… it actually kinda fits?! lol
I think Jackie would be the best romance for fem v i don’t think it would be in character for V Takemura and V to be in a relationship. I wish they would’ve scrapped Kerry’s quest line and made Jackie Bisexual and make him an optional prologue romance. Then we would be able to spend time with Jackie instead of it all just being a cutscene. I think Kerry’s quest line is boring and doesn’t add much to the story.
@@reality4saints jackie was brother of fem v ma dude 😭😭 v says that in dog town gig that she has lost her brother like person
@@reality4saints I think you missed something beyond him not being bisexual that would make a jackie romance weird. you also dont need to have a romance to spend more time with him,,just make more quests with him
It's sad to think that it was cut, I liked his romance a lot, the normalcy and humanity was very immersive and developing for my ex-corpo run. Rather than impacting V's life directly in a huge way and being some "savior", V backseats and gets to observe who he is. Maybe too realistic and boring for some people's tastes, but it changed who my V was for the rest of my playthrough.
Agreed.
My most awkward moment in the game was River's family saying: "Everyone who thinks V and River should be a couple, raise your hand!" And I think my V was the only one who didn't raise her hand...
LMAO yeahhhhh
I wish there was a dialouge option, where V could smooth that over in some way. A smooth line which V could say to dull the awkwardness of that moment, could be locked behind a certain level of the cool stat, to make it more realistic.
damn, Im a guy playing fem V and it still made me cringe for BOTH sides
would be funny if it made River cringe too, but no, he is all into it
It's no better for male V. You are forced to ask Joss if she sees you as having a family and there is no option not to ask it. Why would you ask that if you know you're dying? More to the point, what if you just aren't interested in marriage and kids, ever? (Corpo V hints as much). Ugh.
@@DeadCal the fun part is they dont know youre dying, and fucking River never finds out even if he becomes your partner lol
I think River is a great romantic partner, with a poorly fleshed put romantic plot. Hes a very caring and soft hearted individual, he'll get himself killed to save his family, he's so in love with you that he goes out of his way to learn how to cook after fronting a bit too hard, and he says, or rather texts, my favorite romantic line in the game: "You make me happy V, like that stupid kinda happy." Cause its so relatable, anyone whose really been in a loving relationship has at least thought that once. Its just a shame that hes so underdeveloped. Even though i think him falling for us after literally saving his family and his relationship with his family, is pretty fair, i cant deny that theres just not enough time before or after to really get much more than "caring cop". But its also how much he does with so little that i kinda love, his sincerity, his reflections on how he pushed his sisters side away, his persistence to get his nephew back, him doing the right thing even in the face of being fired or killed (maybe a little too naive on his part, that could def get Joss and her kids in trouble at some point), it all comes together to make a very loveable person, just not a really fleshed out person. I still love him, hes a great person, has a great voice and physique, and i personally love his s*x scene, just tryna keep it down in the moment of passion. Hes got plenty of flaws, like how its implied he asked his sister for help (though i think its just as reasonable his sisters tired of seeing him single, know my families like that), and ive heard he has a pretty petty reaction to being turned down, ive mever turned him down, but if thats true, its a very fair strike against him. But i also wouldnt say these flaws overhsadow the others flaws, Panams hot headedness and temper, Judies lack of careful thinking and impulsiveness, and Kerrys ego and how he only liked you at the start cause he wanted to be closer to Johnny.
agree 100%
Many people say River is plain and boring, but honestly, for a normal life, he would be the best pick. I like him, because despite being robbed of the questline that links him to the main quest and developing a natural relationship, he is cute, not full of drama, a family person and not too impulsive.
Emotional immaturity really shows who appreciates River or Panam more 😂 (Rivers so much more realistic)
Not a great option to fall in love after that case it's lije trauma bonding was my furst reaction I didn't expect to romance option it just seems lije it had cut contact.
This is why I loved him for my V. My V was a nomad and I imagine she was just handed around from caretaker to caretaker within her clan, no real family ties. With River, she saw the opportunity for a real family she could join. Just for it to fall apart because of her fear of Relic. Wonderfully tragic and a great depressing cherry on top to end my V's story.
I like to befriend the romanceable characters, but to romance them? Nah. V is dying, so anyone you romance will probably be left behind after V´s death.
In the case of River Ward, he does not even know about V´s condition, when he and V sit together at that tower. I wish there was an option to tell him there and then, but no. I could either reject him or romance him, without telling him first.
I felt that I had to reject him, since entering into a relationship with him without telling him that I was dying would be dishonest.
@@JohanDanielsson8802 There are plenty moments you tell River your dying dude
I like River as a character, he's got a good heart, but he sucks as a romance option. Feels weird and off.
Agreed! He isn’t a bad guy just… well. He’s a bit awkward!
@lydiscott
Might seem I just parrot what you say in the video but I typed the comment five seconds after you uploaded. So, nice to see we kind of have the same opinion on River. 😅
I hate doing his missions like why is he walking to save his grown nephew he needa hurry up
I played Baldur's Gate immediately after Cyberpunk, fell for Wyll immediately, and had a crushing sense of deja vu later... At least the romance was better.
Same. Like, i don't hate River, and i think he would be an amazing and loyal friend to V. But he goes from 0-100 too fast for my liking, to a point where his sudden feelings come across as really weird and pushy.
Luckily there's a mod that changes his watertower scene for female V - if you don't put up your hand when the kid asks "do you think V and River would make a good couple", then he takes the hint and doesn't try to initiate romance at the top of the watertower. I find that version of River much more palatable.
It seems like a good choice that Takemura replaced him, but it's a shame he was included so late. I would lose interest in Judy if there were a Takemura romance. Him going nomad with V would have wrapped up his character arc quite nicely
Would’ve loved to see him as a Nomad!
River is my baby. I love him so much and the hate I get for loving him is astronomical. Thank you for making this video ❤😢
Thank you for watching! 😄
I wish we got the "River saves V" thing.... i can even see how it could be done without removing Takemura...
Takemura could be easily included in the part where Rogue tracks Helman. How?
Make him find Dex, torture him for info off screen, and end up involved because tracking Helman would give him access to V for the Arasaka questline. (Cause Dex would prob tell him V is the one who was in Konpeki, so he'd know you saw the whole murder thing)
"Takemura got all the character development."
Literally my exact same thought when it comes to Jackie too. You literally get to know him after he dies. I only felt sad for Jackie in so far as "I never knew him personally, but I can tell he had a good heart" not "My best friend died in my arms." sad.
I am and will forever be pissed Takemura isn't a romance option. LET ME ANNOY HIM CDPR, GOD DAMN IT. IT'S MY LOVE LANGUAGE.
Honestly, Jackie's death might have painted him in a sympathetically skewed light considering that we really only knew him for like 6 months. AND he only hung out with us because he found out we were pretty good at stuff.
Jackie was such a failed concept because like a quarter of the story is based on Jackie.
The first rule of storytelling is "show dont tell" and instead of showing the Jackie relationship they just told us "YEAH V HAD VERY GOOD FRIEND NAME IS JACKIE DEAL WITH IT"
The game could as well been split into two parts, one with Jackie where you build that friendship and other with Johny.
@@DefconDelta88 yes! I want a smart man with actual funny jokes, not a brooding bodybuilder.
The Peralez questline abrupt ending works in it favor imo, it just leaves you with so many questions that a danger is looming around and you can't do anything about it.
River on the other hand suffers a lot from the whole cut & rework of his character. It would have been great if they added at least 1 or 2 missions of him becoming a PI (or vigilant?), instead of it being just text exchanges and only available if you romance him...
@ZrodyApo I think they said they kinda wanted to leave it open ended but at the very least give us more info in game about it
Yeah I will say, the peralez quests are super great at being scary.
Besides the missing elephant(s) in the room, River’s perception is also hurt by how his quests are far more interesting than he is. Of the four romancable characters, he not only has the shortest questline but those two quests have barely anything to do with him personally. The first has more to do with the seedy background politics of Night City-he’s barely more than a bystander-and the second is a noir-esque hunt. Oh, and these have nothing to do with the main story.
I’m more invested in his sister’s unique struggles than his own. Heck, the whole bit about the NCPD experiencing on autistic kids hit me harder than anything else in the game.
AGREEEEEED the lab was so interesting! Sucks they didn’t look into that more. Fascinating.
@@lydiscott
It legitimately shook me, and I’m not someone who is easily perturbed by real life. My stomach quails a bit just remembering 😠
River was an odd duck but I think we can all agree that the part in his romance where you play the AR game with the kids was cool.
Agreed!!
I agree with everything you said in this video. I don't play as a gay V or a female V but I can definitely see that there is a lacking gutted story there.
This also has a lacking "Best Bro" story. After losing Jackie, this could have been a great story about finding more mature and stable friendships.
Leaving the street kid or nomad chaos life or the grand luxury of corpo life to find something more.
Missed opportunity.
FRIG I wish we could’ve had that friendship storyline. It would’ve been so nice!
@@lydiscott Maybe we will see growth from CD Projekt Red With Orion? I don't know, I work in the Tech industry and there is a lot of stuff that I am seeing that doesn't give me confidence. Typically, when a new project that is related to a old project is beginning. You don't move the senior developers away from that project to help on another, you only move mid-level engineers and developers. Product manager should not be jumping from project project. And I saw a lot of people that are on The Witcher development team. In fact, it is all hands on Deck 4. That game. A lot of the lessons are going to be forgot because they are no longer working on the game. Out of sight, out of mind.
And the studio expansion is now international rather than centralized. That makes things very difficult when you're moving to a whole different engine and coding language. Very bad in my opinion.
I think them enhancing Judy’s plot-line and rewriting River’s original arc into Takemura’s was a stroke of creative genius because it serves the narrative in a much better way. That’s an aspect of great writing, knowing when a character isn’t working as intended and therefore opting for someone else who makes more sense in the story that is taking shape even if it wasn’t the story originally planned.
As a straight male, I left exploring Kerry and River romances to my, well, 10th or so playthrough. Before that, I thought Judy vs Panam was a more or less balanced choice, but now I can't put aside the thought that romances are strongly and unfairly gender-biased, in terms of the resources vs responsibilities the partner offers to a protagonist. MascV gets a powerful war chieftain leading a strong loyal clan, or a filthy rich world-level rockstar, both of whom have their life problems generally sorted long before or during the romance questline. After that, they don't actually rely on V's help in anything major yet have a lot of power and influence to back their partner instead. FemV gets a broken cop whose career and private life were a complete failure, or an idealistic artist whose plans to make the world a better place meet a failure after a failure after a failure. Don't get me wrong, Judy is adorable, but both of them feel like you get a person to care for, rather than a person to shine with. Altogether if I ask the question "What internal need does the partner fulfill for V" it seems like "MascV has ambitions, while FemV has the urge to have pity and look after" which is dangerously close to patriarchal stereotypes. A consideration that the original River could have stayed in the NCPD to back up his crusade gets him a bit of an advantage in my eyes, but canonically that didn't happen. Do you think I got something wrong here?
You are absolutely right!
I mostly agree, but as a gay man, I'm still almost exclusively drawn to the Panam relationship dynamic. Kerry was cool, but didn't really feel like there was any real feelings behind it. It came across as mostly physical to me. Panam came across as a real ride or die, in fact she's the only one who actually HELP'S V... They could've really expanded on using the romance partners in the endings. River could use police resources to help, Judy could use her cyber skills, Kerry could use his network of fans as he did to get the equipment for the van gig, and his wealth and other resources. But they didn't help at all, and the only real happy feeling ending is the one where you ride off with the Aldecaldos. All in all, it's quite clear that Panam was meant to be your main romance and likely the canon ending is leaving with her. All that to say that everyone else feels shallow in comparison.
@@tswooten I would rather separate Panam's help in the ending from her romance story, since it happens regardless of whether you romanced her or someone else. I didn't actually consider how the romance affects the final mission, but rather what would happen if it succeeded in "they lived happily ever after". But since you've brought it up, we now have to include Johnny in the list xD Romancing him opens the secret ending where no one dies for our salvation, which I believe is as happy as a ride off into the sunset with nomads.
@@collegatore Valid, though for me what I'm saying is Panam is the only one who actually felt like a "happily ever after" because of that. So either they could've added more options for happy ending immersion by including the other partners in the endings, or omit it altogether. It's just the obvious uneven treatment of the overall outcomes that felt shallow with the others.
@@collegatore You dont romance him thought, you just become friends, and the ending isn't exactly happy either especialy if you romanced Judy. If Panam ending is about leaving the corruption of Night city behind and living off your last days happy and free, than the secret one is about fully embracing the grind, where V continues to risk his life and climb higher even when he becomes the most legendary NC merc refusing to settle down
I agree with you that River's a character that had potential, but was the victim of last-minute decisions. I never hated River, but it felt like he was an afterthought. Like the devs needed a het male relationship for femmeV, and he was "available." As well written as Judy's arc is, or Panam's, River's feels totally lacking. Worse, if your V is not interested in guys, it gets very awkward. Now knowing what was done to bring in Goro by cutting out some of River's content, it does make more sense. But I'll always feel like River was done dirty
Yeahhhh it’s a shame what happened to River. Just wish they’d given us a proper Takemura romance lmao
My issue with River is that even after dating Judy and made clear that my character is a lesbian. The game still forces me to talk about past boyfriends and have River acting like I was leading him on when every interaction I always picked the least romantic dialogue while still being friendly.
I've honestly just been avoiding doing rivers quests cause of that 😭
In all fairness, V could be bisexual. But yeah, there should be an option to say you don´t swing that way.
@@JohanDanielsson8802 I know and that's total valid for V to be bi. Just I'm lesbian and just wanted my V to be pure lesbian without getting romance backstory thrown onto me.
@@dillydraws I hear you, and even if I am a straight dude, I absolutely agree that it felt like unnecessarily forced backstory when V talked about her past boyfriends.
I wonder if that bit about their past is Life Path specific? I almost always go the Nomad route and I seem to remember V telling a story about her first kiss being in a corn field or something but I am pretty sure there is zero mention of the gender of the person she was with. Interesting. I get why that could rub people the wrong way.
For me the cringe was him telling his family about his crush first and the awkward dinner and then him getting all salty if you turn him down. The whole think made an interesting character feel like an immature teenager.
Garrus Vakarian was a great comparison that I doubt I would have thought of. And this is coming from a guy with N7 in his avatar.
Gotta love the vigilante men with scars lmao
River reminded me of a short tabletop campaign where the gamemaster flipped the script and made a police campaign set in the 2020 era after getting the police sourcebook. There were three players playing variations of cops, one playing a white hat Netrunner and I played a fixer running both sides of the street. The scenarios included defusing a potential gang war, running down a malicious hacker that ruined people lives who truned out to be a sociopathic fourteen year old, a cyberpsycho hostage situation, with the final one being tracking down a stolen package that Arasaka and Militech were both after which turned out to be a new prototype version of Soulkiller that could be deployed wirelessly. That last one had a lot of twists including the NUSA federal agent feeding us info via text and phone call turned out to be a false identity for AI Alt Cunningham who convinced us to destroy the prototype and stolen research files rather than turn them in as they were too dangerous to let anyone have.
That sounds so fucking cool
There are three "golden eras"of my gaming career. Two under excellent GMs and one where I was the GM experienced in the examples of the previous two. The first one was in grade and high school was a Cyberpunk and old school D&D era. Been a Pondsmith fan since 1988, when the original Cyberpunk 2013 setting was released.
And that ressurceted a rather timely memory. The potential gang war scenario was the first one we did as cops. One player's charcater mouthed off in the in-universe briefing why we should care about two gangs shooting each other to death in the Combat Zones. The gamemaster's through the in-universe briefing officer shouted at him, "90% of people in the Combat Zones are people who can't afford to leave just trying to get enough to feed themselves and their kids. If you can just write them off as deserving to be at the mercy of amped up psychopaths' violent urges because you don't like their where their street address is, you don't to deserve to wear that uniform!"
A speech cops today should be getting.
If I had a nickel every time I romanced a nice one-eyed black guy, whom I liked for his "hero" archerype, only to be disappointed by the lack of character development and overall story for said character; and later found out that a lot of his story was cut and the character was drastically changed from a more interesting and intertwined with the main plot original version, - I would have two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird it happened twice.
Isn’t he Native American?
@Xxsorafan shit, I scrolled to the end of his Wiki page and he is. Sorry, I am from Eastern Europe and I have had little exposure to Native American people, and his clothing, hairstyle and face look like a mixed black man to me, though I did wonder why his sister and nephews don't look black. That would explain it.
Does he talk about his roots in any of the dialogues? I can't seem to remember any(
I really hope I didn't say anything offensive! Thanks a lot for pointing it out for me.
@ it’s okay I was just confused lol. I can’t remember if he mentions his heritage but the devs confirmed him and Panam are Native American. What tipped me off was his feather necklace though
@@Xxsorafan yeah, after your comment I noticed that detail, too)
To be fair, none of us are obligated to look like a stereotypical caricature of our culture. It's nice to have indigenous representation, even if it does ruin my comment a little bit) thanks again, I am glad I learned that River is Native American)
To me it felt like river was never supposed to be a romance character but just a regular side quest. Only when CDPR ran out of time they tagged on a rushed romance option in the end because they cut the 4th romance character entirely.
Look at how they massacred my boy
😭
If you feel like River has missing romance content, you wouldn’t even believe what was cut from the beta. Originally you were intended to manipulate River from his ex-girlfriend who you meet during the quest where you save his nephew. If you didn’t he would reject you much the same way he does when you are male. I’m not sure if there’s any leftovers in the vode of this but it might warrant a look. Great video!
WOAHHHH THATS ACTUALLY NUTS?!?!? I gotta look into this! Thank you for commenting!!!!
His romance definitely got cut content or last minute thrown in. To me bonding and getting into a relationship after that messed up crime case felt so off to me. Like not a great way to start a romance.
Yeah, I feel like there should’ve been maybe a buffer quest at least between the rescue and the family dinner lol
I've long held the suspicion that the wild cgi trailers we got in the lead up to release were all based on earlier versions of the plot. If so, I wonder if originally it wasn't going to be V that killed DeShawn (in the hotel), and River/Sobcheck eventually finding V in the scrapyard hunting down an already dead Dex. Possibly there was going to be more going on between the end of the heist and getting killed? That section of the game has always felt *extremely* weird, like a 40ish minute block of dialogue and cutscenes with almost nothing else going on. Act structure of the game is so weird, too-- there *had* to have been more going on in act 1 at some point.
With all these years of hindsight from cyberpunks release you can really see the areas left unfinished by the rushed development. Its a shame what happened with river. I was hoping he'd provide a window into the NCPD and whats it like trying to enforce law and order in a place like Night City. I guess we can only hope that CDPR gets a crunchless and more thorough development schedule for their next project
Thank you so much for shedding light on the behind-the-scenes development of River Ward. Your explanation really clarifies why his character feels somewhat underdeveloped compared to others. River is easily missable because, unlike more integral characters, his involvement in the main story is quite minimal and loosely connected. The romance, as you pointed out, feels rushed and lacks the natural build-up seen in other relationships. I also found the dinner with his family particularly awkward. As a female V, it's obvious the family is pushing you and River together, which feels forced. Meanwhile, as a male V, it seems like his sister is asking for herself, which makes the whole interaction even more uncomfortable in my opinion. I can't wait to see your deep dive into the Peralez storyline-fantastic video!
Ahhhh thank you so much for watching!!!
I just did River as a romance a few weeks ago for the first time and yeah as much as I love him as a character, he felt so much more disconnected to the main story in comparison to Judy, Panam, and Kerry as a romance option.
Yeahhhh it’s unfortunate!
Yesterday I finished the River quest and the diner with him. I loved him and I had told myself that i have to watch videos on him to see i missed anything. And just a few hours after, not even one day, you made this. Thank you.
Thank you so much for watching, that’s awesome lol!!!
I like that you mentioned River reminds Garrus a little bit because I had the same feeling. It seems like they come from the same archetype - an honest cop within the corrupt system wanting to make a difference. Both even end up with vigilanty justice in mind. Althouth, Garrus receives moral guidence from Shepard, and River seems to be capable to make that call on his own. May be that would be a part of a lost questline of River.
Ahhh yeah, really wish they’d explored that more!
Part of what I like the least about River is he doesn't even seem to care if you treat him like trash, I was rude to him in every dialog option and he STILL wanted to get with me. Why? It made him feel so much less like a "real" character to me and just as someone put there to be a romance option
I did always feel like both male romance partners (River and Kerry) got the short end of the stick compared to the females personally. Both Panam and Judy are shoved down our throats at regular intervals throughout V's journey (not in a bad way, just saying), while River is essentially a side-note with his own story in a completely optional sidequest, and Kerry isn't really introduced to us until much later in the game's main story arc, at which point V is already halfway on death's door, so to speak. I like both characters for who they are and what they bring to the table personally, but they both get far less 'meaningful' screen time in my opinion. This definitely hurts how much we (or me anyway) can grow attached to either of them compared to Panam and Judy, even though I do like both of them and wish we could have seen more (or maybe just earlier in the plot in Kerry's case).
At 13:39 for the reference, I BELIEVE there is another one. If you have a male V and call Judy on good terms after she leaves NC, there is a choice in one of the phone calls where she tells you about the Peralezes and V will say something like "already met them".
Im a little fuzzy as I've done 5 different playthroughs with different choices. Great Video, thumbs up 👍🏽
Getting friendzoned by him (male v) was so awkward.
OMG yeahhhhh its not great 🤣
I was hurt honestly lmao
The comparison to Garrus wasnot unfair. River romance feels a bit like watching one of these youtube vids with some scenes from the MR-trilogy. But it feels incomplete so you sigh and start another playthrough.
But there's no other playthrough for River. This is what we got.
Yeah, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head! It’s so sad!
While the quest is rushed, I will say it almost feels perfect for River as a character. He rushes things, he never really waits, always jumping on his toes, a cat always trying to catch the newest string. Our first introduction to him ends with him just ousting and practically threatening his partner, he has trouble of thinking what to do next because it is not something he does. When the kidnapper of his nephew is caught, he scrambles to get V to help him instead of thinking it all through, always thinking on his toes with new information.
In his line of work, this is both a blessing and a curse. Being able to piece together information so quickly is incredibly useful, the problem with it is that he does not think ahead of the plan, that is not his job as a detective. He is there to collect and provide evidence, not really meant to be in the fray of things.
So, while I am not saying the rushed questline is good, I will say it is rather in character with how River is. Like an actual river, he is always in a rush.
I'm one of those that, despite the short time with him, still like River.. as a friend :P
I do agree that him being in love with V came so fast, but I just chalk it up to V being instrumental in saving his nephew and that's he fell for V fast. It also kinda helps that in the Nomad ending where V leaves Night City and you chose to have a relationship with River beforehand, he chooses to stay in Night City rather than go with you. So at the end, he prioritizes his sense of duty than the romance he just found with V. The only reason that I didn't like the romance with him is that when it came to flirting with V, he just seemed like a little boy who's lost on what to do xD It's like he lost all his masculinity lol. Which is funny considering that he's 40yo and they changed V's age to 23 in update 2.0, which I'm really not a fan of btw. It's another topic for discussion, but V's original age being 28 makes so much more sense than 23 considering that the people they befriend or meet in the game are all in their late 20s and above. I think the youngest is Misty who's 26.
Thank you so much for making this video. I've romanced River in each playthrough pre PL content (corpo and nomad completed, comp crashed before could complete street kid) and each time I always felt there was so much more missing. Good to know I'm not the only one. My god, how much different would the game had been if they hadn't made the revisions?! That story I would be interested in!
Man, the Peralez mission at the end was the nail in the coffin which made me super love Cp2077. So I'm excited for that. Hope all is well dragonborn.
I’m really excited to present what I’ve found about those missions! They’re so scary honestly lol
@@lydiscott they were. They gave me some deep x file conspiracy illuminati vibe.
Ya know, i thought i just didn't like Rivers romance because im a heterosexual dude but then i did Kerry's romance and realized that River is genuinely just the absolute worst romance in the game
I am and will forever be pissed Takemura isn't a romance option. LET ME ANNOY HIM CDPR, GOD DAMN IT. IT'S MY LOVE LANGUAGE. ♪~ ᕕ(ᐛ)ᕗ
Literally the biggest tragedy of the game.
I liked River a lot but 1000% agree the romance hits you like a sucker punch in the back of the head and I was like BRO I literally just met you and also am already dating Judy. I just wanted to bro out with him more than anything, like having food was fun and some of my favourite bits in the game are the dumber things like grabbing a drink with someone-but mainly annoying Takemura is the best best bits (づ￣ ³￣)づ
River's whole thing just does a breakneck romance for a female V without actually giving you a chance to even establish if you're interested (I mean if you're a lesbian it's borderline traumatizing. If you know, you know. Even as a bi person, I was like... jaysus, can we just have a beer, this got way too intense way too fast). And it's unfortunate, because his character definitely had a very different kind of nuance that just gets lost in it. Imo it would work a lot better if there's some kind of optional mission after his main story where you get to go do something stupid / wild (ie. like when you and Kerry go fuck up that dude's boat, lmao) and you can either opt to go down a flirty line or just be homies, and THEN you can do the whole water tower thing, so at least there's some in-between. Judy's had a nice progression like that where you get to actually chill with her, but also River is kind of the only one who doesn't have his storyline heavily woven into the main one, so I think we miss out on a LOT because he's more of a side-side character, whereas Judy, Panam, and Kerry all have pretty heavily involved main-plot parts of the game on top of their own storylines.
But I goddamn want that sexy tempura boi. #NeverForgive (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
I actually liked River as a potential romance option. True, it was rushed, but I felt that made sense both for V and for River. They both have been through a lot and I did perceive River's advances more as him... longing for someone, anyone, he felt connected to. Which was funny, since I felt V was coming from a similar place with all the loss and stuff going on in her life at the time, and just longed for some kind of comfort.
In the end, I refused him at the last moment, cause what hit me is that River was just starting to get his life back together, and V was dying, so she didn't wanted to be with him cause she feared that, if she died, River could just unravel, maybe because she was projecting on him how she felt, that she just couldn't bear losing someone else she cared about.
So yeah, pretty unhealthy, but it was really interesting, and even if that was all in my head, I felt it as one of the more authentic roleplaying moments I ever had in a game.
Even with all that, it's a shame it wasn't given more space.
I can see that happening, after several playthroughs you start to see how the game was basically stitched together the best they could, I mean the 3rd act is basically non existent and the ending were left open and unfinished, everything is so abrupt. Good video tho, very interesting stuff.
I still like River, but i wish we could get THAT River, who saved us at the dumpster. I remember reading he was supposed to be there right after the game came out and realized how much was cut. And he looks way hotter on the old arts.
River's story also felt natural to me when I played--a solid-headed ex-cop who latches on to you in a time of crisis, but with one glaring weak point in having absolutely no practice with romance and being reeeeally bad at it.
I've said it before, and I understand it'd probably be tough to record a bunch of unique dialog but I wish you could team up with companions for just normal exploration.
it'd be nice to be able to have like a social link type meter that builds as you do more missions with each companion that then unlocks their companion missions.
like you should have to earn those missions.
would've loved to get to know more about river but I agree he was absolutely rushed.
i think you could have seen river tied into the main story in one way or another. my suggestion would be probably have him show up trying to find info on XBD/BD's and needing V to do it because he sticks out as a cop. this could tie into the shady gentleman in the storage area of jig jig street or even tie in the watson XBD operation you can take out as part of a gig.
you just have the hunch be something small like just a slightly odd timestamp when the BD was used before death, or even that no BD wreath was noted at the scene of his suppossed death or something so he'd show up and be the one asking the BD dealer about hardcore BDs and such.
alternetives are making him part of the quest to find Evaline in the clouds portion.
Its a good idea, they always talk about how heavily XBDs are edited, but when we look for Evelyn they forgot to edit out a coat with a name of a place they in? C'mon, you don't make such mistakes in that kind of business
My first encounter with River was a nuke dropped on me. I expected a few quests but when he started flirting with me I was shocked
I believe River/Sobchak was investigating Arasaka's Project Ghost, back when the main story was quite different and River's involvement as a detective made sense, but obviously this was no longer possible in the Relic storyline and Takemura's character was needed. Oh speaking of Takemura, you should make a video on the original Phantom Liberty ending. It was interesting, to say the least.
OHHH I’m not aware of its original ending! I’ll have to look into it, sounds interesting indeed 😄
I remember when the game had first came out, my lesbian V had already started dating Judy when I did the River quest. It felt like the story was insisting my V was bi and tried pressuring me into a relationship out of nowhere.
It weirded me out so much that to this day I'm still hesitant to start Rivers questline because I know not a darn thing has changed.
I would like to point out, that in giant projects like this, that has its creation span a decade, it is not simply writing v. editing. Stories go back and forth between the two so many times as production goes on. Scope has to be reevaluated and the applied meets the theoretical. So i would argue that what we have left of River is poorly written as what made it whole was carved out and repurposed elsewhere.
The hard part about Frankensteining the story like they did, is that the way the story escalates could be excusable if not for the disperate tone which just leaves River coming off as a manipulative abuser if you are female V and reject his advances which doesn't pair with his overall character presentation. An oversight, i hope, but really what ruined the character for me.
It's funny, in my playthrough with female V the River "romance" never felt unfinished - I did his quests long before I got to know Judy. The way the River questline proceeded felt urgent and and both RIver and V could really use to blow off some steam by the end. So the hookup happens and I tell River I'm dying and currently not thinking about serious relationships. Both are ok with this. Sounds quite relatable and believable to me.
Of course, my V underestimated how awesome and irresistable Judy turns out to be. Judy is the reason why I can't bring myself to view Cyberpunk 2077 as a dystopia... because despite all, it is still a world that produces people like Judy :)
Awww I love that perspective of Judy
I was waiting for you to mention the Breaking Bad reference on his roof! And that hilariously bad family photo at the hospital before it got patched out
AHHH yeah I haven’t watched breaking bad yet!!! Still on the list! And oh god I vaguely remember that picture I thought I was crazy when it didn’t show up this time around!
I dunno what you mean by patched out, I still get the photo if I finish River's quests.
@@TheKazragore I mean at first, River's hospital picture is hilariously low effort before they patched in a better looking one you'll get today. Look it up. Fans won't let that picture fade away is all I'm saying!
Damn... I told the boys to cover their tracks. 😆
River is the only character susceptible to romance to whom V doesn't confess the nature of his condition regarding the Relic. (At least, in the way the final game was launched).
Even V confesses this to Sol Reed, who is not romanceable, which automatically makes River feel like a more "external" character. less committed to V.
Even, there could be a possible narrative arc about a "scientific solution" to the Relic issue, and that is why there's a small dialogue with Yawen Packard about the Relic.
But it's a dead end in the base game.
That Philip is Philipp Weber, narrative director in CDPR.
One of the reasons I play male V is to avoid "that" conversation with River.
Wait what, I always played male V and still got the romance dialog option (witch I never picked) How is it different for the female V?
@@vladconstantinminea I only played female V on my first run which was at least a dozen updates ago. The male V runs were much later and I don't recall the dinner and conversation being as awkward. I don't know if the later updates patched something or messed something up perhaps?
You invoked a name I did not expect but absolutely would love to see you to do a video on, Garrus Vakarian. Honestly videos on the entire crew would be amazing. Thank you.
Imo the thing that harms Rivers romance the most is the fact that he’s the only one that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the main plot of the game. Judy and Panam both have long, detailed, main story quest lines, Kerry is Johnny’s best friend with some main story cameos, and River is… some guy.
His romance isn’t just locked behind a substory. It’s locked behind a substory, locked behind another substory, locked behind a third substory only activated by a randomized phone call unlocked at some point in the middle of Act 2.
A River-V buddy cop dynamic investigating Arasaka would have been so much fun. Through the NCPD you could also get alot more insight into one of the hingepoints of Cyberpunk lore which is the interaction between a nominally independent political administration and its security forces and the Corps and their private security forces.
Rah, rah-ah-ah-ah
Roma, roma-ma
Gaga, ooh-la-la
River's a bad romance
XD
River's not ugly, but his eye is diseased
His nephew was kidnapped with a gift that was free
River's in love
Love, love, love, he fell in love (hey)
What I find very interesting is, that as nomad V, after Evelyn ends herself, you can pick a dialog option in wich V says something like "Welcome to Night City, where your adress tells everything about you." and Judy answeres "We should have never come here in the first place." Her answer feels a bit of. Who is we? Maybe she and her grandparents, but she says it so personal at you.
Was Judy originally planed as a nomad, who was supposed to come with you to NC in the intro?
The scraping or cutting of Rivers story gave place for her as she is now in the finished game, but it is quite sad to see the lost potential on Rivers part to the story as a whole.
Great Video Lydi, I hadn’t heard of the cut River content so it was cool to hear more about it! As it stands I think he is the worst romance in the game and that includes a dude who is 50-70 years older than your character. He would have been very memorable as a side character like the Peralez’s but making him a romance cheapens him. Looking forward to the video on the Peralez’s!
AGREED the romance is the fatal nail in this coffin. IT SUCKS AHH and omg I’m very excited for it too!!! I love how creepy those quests feel, especially with all the AI theories pertaining to it
Wtf. Considering my interests how in all the universes have I never found this channel. Way to go RUclips good job
Johnny is right to be pissed you slept with a cop tho.
My first play through went as Male V, I romanced Panam, but I haven’t gotten to the dinner scene yet with River, to me, Male V and River just felt like a buddy cop dynamic, while River is the grizzled vet and V being the rookie essentially, despite my V already being max level with 50 street cred haha, but I agree with everyone, either Takemura should’ve been the romance option for Female V or have River take Takemura’s place so he could get more development
To be honest, I would have sacrificed all of River's quests to get some more scenes with Takemura. I have no interest in Takemura romantically, but I still found him to be one of the most compelling characters in the game, and wish he wasn't suddenly removed from the story after the parade.
Yeah honestly if they’d removed River entirely to give more to takemura I’d have been like GREAT HELL YEAH 😂
ty Lyds, personally I find River awesome compared to the other romance options (yep, tried them all), but it feels like he has had the least care put into him.
However, since I can't have Viktor, he's my choice.
It sucks so much that they didn’t give him more stuff to do! He does stand out from the other options a lot, but he’s criminally underused.
I liked him but it sucks we did get robbed from more exposition for this character. Great video like always.
Thank you for watching!!!
I really wish they didn’t cut his content. He’s shown to have a hero complex, realize he’s been neglecting his family for work, and resourceful enough to help V find leads towards Arasakas route. Those ingredients and more could have made him a more impactful character equal to Judy and Panam
11:20 only halfway through the video, but just realized, given rivers original name seeming slavic/russian, could hint that the randy storyline was originally gonna be saving him from scavs?
Hmmm good point! Gotta wonder
I'm glad I got to play this before the content was cut. I didn't even know it was cut!
Thanks for the video! I don't entirely dislike River as a character, and I find the forced romance actually a little funny, like something an overbearing family would do so I had no problem looking past it even though I had no intention of romancing him and he has one sentence that's a bit grating when you reject him, but the real friction point for me is that whatever final result we got feels really flat and boring. At least in the "good" ending, Jesus failing his quest leads to bleak results but he's actually interesting in his final call there.
Maybe that's due, as you say, to him getting a lot of character progression "stolen" cause the final result is the most uninteresting major NPC. And it's funny because you're right, there's a lot of parallels between female V's two potential romances and I really like Judy so it's likely that with a bit more work, I'd have liked River too. As things stand, I sadly only really love the other three romance option.
Please please please I beg you do a Kerry video he’s my favorite romance in the game and I feel like there’s a lot for you to cover
Love Kerry’s quests! Excited to tackle this someday!
seconding this! kerry is my fave too!!
River is the only good cop around, i do agree with all you said he made me more curious then fullfilled as a side character
One more thing a fun fact the VA for River was supposed to be Male V but was fired from the job if you watch the trailer from 2018 its River voice. He was brought back as River maybe that's why a lot of things got cut because of the VA
The game went through a variety of radical quality of life changes just within the past 2 years or so, and I'm not even talking about the add-ons from Phantom Liberty. Maybe the devs are also dissatisfied with what became of River. We know Keanu Reeves would reprise his role as Johnny for peanuts at this point, so who knows. Perhaps the skeleton crew left making small occasional patches might drop us something big that's all about River and Takemura.
I think this is the earliest I've ever watched a video after it's released
WOOOO
I actually felt the same but since it as my first play through, I thought the game bugged me out of the bonding quests. Like, as is? The end of the Peter Pan quest could've worked as is, but between that and the romance quest, we could have used more ground.
Very interesting stuff. I was familiar with River’s origins as Sobchek, although I hadn’t heard any of the River-Goro connection stuff before.
I certainly agree that, despite the very interesting questline, River’s character isn’t developed as much as Judy and Panam, or even Goro. And I agree that his romance leaves something to be desired.
I don’t really like it, however, when people use the term “cut content” for what appears to be the normal process of editing and revision. It suggests something nefarious, like removing finished questlines to sell later as DLC, rather than what it is, part of an entirely honest process of making the best game possible.
Could River had been better developed with more quest lines? Yes? But, given how late in the process the changes were made, the game would have taken even longer to create, and cost even more money, and neither is unlimited.
Unlike a book, which costs the writer a couple dollars for pens and a couple dollars for notebooks; video games are expensive. They are (usually) a collaboration between many people, unlike a book which is just the author (or maybe a collaboration between the author(s) and their editor). Video games are a lot more like cinema, which is a massive collaboration between many people, with separate pre-production, production, and post-production processes. In editing a film, often what an actor considers to be their best performance is lost in the editing suite because the film as a whole is better for it. It’s not “cut content”; it’s just the nature of any medium where time and money aren’t unlimited.
The sad thing is, as a guy, I feel like River built up that friendship more, which is why I was always sad that he turned me down
I’ve been waitttttting for this, thank you
Hey!
Do you think you'll make a video about Engrams and Vs stream of consciousness? Like about the whole concept of oneself? I finished the game a few weeks back and in my opinion when V jacks into Mikoshi it's over for the OG V, stream of consciousness ends and they are dead and the Engram wakes up with all of the memories thinking it is the original. Just wondering about your thoughts!
I'm new to your channel so if you already talked about it in a video I'm sorry!
Anyway great videos, keep it up! :)
I'm convinced that Judy and Panam were meant to be the canon romances. River and Kerry seemed to be added in at the last minute, so players could have a bit more variety. Shame....both River and Kerry could've had way more potential
IMO, the issue of River romance is not really that it is so sudden and comes out of left field - I can easily imagine him being so impressed by V (she is really an impressive person and even if player chooses to not confide much to him during the quests, you can easily assume that River is talented and shrewd enough to dig stuff about V on his own) that he just fall for her completely.
The issue is that devs wanted to have their cake but also ate it. They still tried to frame this out of left field romance/crush/infatuation as something that supposed to be natural and expected. Basically, what this romance needs is one precursor scene to Water tower where River drops the bomb on V in some random place at some random time and then it leads to this awkward family dinner/water tower scene only if V reciprocates/doesn't shoot him down immediately.
I thought that River was not a stand in father and was like never around, until he met V. That was expressed through actual in game dialogue from his family, im pretty sure about that.
TBH I thought I made a few too many bad choices to get the romance options for River ( I played male V BTW) happy to see it was just a out of left sudden romance option I was just trying to see where these missions would get me
"Let's save my nephew from the milkman" 🤣
On a narrative note here's a question I keep asking myself. Who!e noir style fiction with a few good people holding a corrupt system together with great sacrifice is compelling storytelling, is it a good example? Would it be better to let the system crash and reboot rather than prolonging it in the long term?
Yeah River is defo a half baked character. It would've made more sense if River found V and took her to Vik he could've been investigating Saka and following up on the heist after working under cover or something. You could of had Takemura meet V in the back ally he could've been a mole for the ncpd after finding out about the nuke his boss wanted to drop on NC. Would've made more sense to have River meet V in the Diner Talemura sticks out like a sore thumb. I adore this game but it still has buckets of potencial just beneath the surface. I'd love to see V in the next game and see all the Surviving characters return in new and creative ways defo more social content around gigs and maybe not a ticking time bomb in your head so you don't feel like you have to rush around as much 😅
I don’t understand why V is so unsure and negative about her relationship with River when the opposite seems true for the other partners. Hes so sweet and makes me want to dive head first into love with him!
The lack of a proper romance really mutes some of the life in the world. It makes things more hollow, like shops you can’t enter.
I think River's romance is ok if player is into him since the Peralez's introduction quest. You can see some chemistry and occasional hints in subsequent quests between River and V (like when Johnny jokes about V's desire to polish policeman's badge or V commenting on hard-willed women surrounding River through his life). However, i understand that River's last quest can become nasty for female V that is not interested in romancing him as you are basically forced into awkward interactions. I mean, it makes sense since River is the only romance option that actually chases after V, not the other way around. Also - it is very in touch with real life relationships. There's a lot of misunderstandings and awkward interactions between two young people all the time. So, River's questline has problems, but i think River in his current state is just the most realistic, non-idealistic romance option. Yes, he doesn't stand out like others and it's understandable if it doesn't interest you.
Playing as a female V you either get stuck with a selfish non caring brat like Judy or you get with a rushed awkward incel cop.
Male V has the best options, very well written characters (Panam and Kerry)
Tbh, I thought his quest was pretty kino it would have been cool when he was talking about becoming a P.I., he'd as you to join him depending on how the quest went rather than a romance it would be a friendship & a way to generate radiant NCPD investigate jobs.
😿ahh, River.