The big bandit module can actually output anywhere from 10mw to 2000mw and the process to get it to do it is the exact same as the Ranger module. Tested and confirmed it last night! 🤙🏻
Some comments from the perspective of someone who has taken crossfire out to 121km on a 1.3kg FPV plane: 1) 900 MHz and 1.3ghz analog (still #1 for pure long range) really mess with each other. I run additional notch filters on the video receiver - which already have good filtration to begin with (rmrc brand). On top of that I relay my RC link and video link so I can have each on their own tripod spaced out by 20-100 meters. Even still I see the blips of 900 MHz interference in my video at extreme range. On the RC receiving end of things - I run Matek 1.3g vtx with selectable output power. I avoid the highest power setting when possible (800 mW) because in some cases you can watch SNR db drop on the RX link with increased video output power. This probably has more to do with fresnel zone interference which impacts both video and RC link, placing both on the edge of failure to begin with. Still, it isn’t fun to clear up static with increased vtx output - only to instantly Send your RC link into failsafe…. 2) Having the RC transmitter on a tripod - wirelessly linked to your transmitter is fantastic for long flights. It could in theory be done in the opposite order but you can run say…. Tracer on your radio. Then have the tx pad of your tracer receiver wired to the RX wire of the CRSF input on your 900mhz module. This obviously adds latency and you will never have telemetry - but for long range FPV - it’s fine. Then you don’t have to care how you hold the radio - you can go piss behind a sand dune with your goggles on your forehead, holding the radio by your side…. Just saying…. 3) As to how 1.3ghz video and 2.4 ghz RC play together? Idk.. never tried it - but I want to. As you pointed out, antenna size is massively different between 900 and 2.4. I only use a shapeshifter for my 900 long range setup - so not very directional…. For that same size - I could run a 9-12 db yagi on a 2.4 ghz module. This really would help close the range gap between the two frequencies. No free lunch of course - as the high gain yagi is very directional - but so is my Long range flying… I know what course I will fly within a few degrees days before I fly it - because I plan it that way. I set up my tripods with a compass - directional isn’t an issue for me. Maybe for others it is…. Idk… Cheers and thanks for the good vids as always.
Thank you for putting so much effort into these videos JB! I am disgusted by the handcuffs these unnecessary regulations have placed on your livelihood. Especially given this hobby's impeccable record of safe flight. This was very informative, and I appreciate it. Take care, and keep up the good work.
Lots of people vote for democrats and then complain when they get exactly what they voted for: bigger, more powerful and oppressive central government and less freedom.
After failsafing over a tree on 2.4ghz, I went to Crossfire & never failsafed again. Then I went to ELRS 915mhz because what I care most about is not losing an expensive quad. I don't care about the antenna size. They are spring steel cable and the props can't seem to chop the antennas up at all. The insulation gets chopped up, but not the antenna.
If you're interested why lower frequency have better range google "Friis transmission equation" (look at images where Pr = ...). It basically says that received power is proportional to wavelength squared, aka if you lower frequency by 2x the received power increases by 4x (if I understood it correctly)
I fly with my buddy who has TBS crossfire and I regularly match or exceed his range. We fly in the hills and end up behind obstacles that requires serious penetration. I use ELRS 2.4ghz @ 500hz outputting at 500mw which is about as bad for long range as you can set it... I'm totally blown away with ELRS and the fact that the gear costs les than half
Looking to get into the hobby and this video has helped me decide on a decent starter setup. Tx16s with elrs, fatshark scout, skyzone M5, and whatever small cheap Kwad I want to bounce off the walls and learn with. And with the Tx16s I can later upgrade the ag01 gimbals and can upgrade the fatshark scout with rapid fire. Seems a good way to start and not have to upgrade for quite some time and still have a decent rig. And I’ve figured out I’m probably gonna own several quads and fixed wing fpv craft. Super cool that the radiomaster ranger and bandit can be turned into Rx mode. Thanks for the great video!
How are you guys getting such phenomenal range from drones? I'm assuming you're doing FPV? Are you just using all patch antennas? Give me your secrets man! 🤣
As a mainly PX4/Ardupilot guy, telemetry over ELRS would be absolutely insane. So much cheaper and a little bit less weight. Can't go wrong with that. And I won't have to worry about my telemetry radio losing connection before my controller does! Woohoo!!
I think JB tried everything. That's why he is so confident about 915 is x8 thd range of 2.4. Just to be on the legal side need to be done this way. In fhis country is important not what you do, but what you say.
For most people it seems like the 2.4 GHz will have more range than they will ever need anyway, even at the 100 mW limit in the UK and EU, it seems the main need to go to 900 MHz is if you fly extremely long range, 10s of kilometres or more (even though the 2.4 GHz ELRS can apparently reach into the low 10s of kilometres) but like you mentioned that is illegal in most places. It would probably be a lot more useful once it can be used with fully autonomous drones but again flying those long range is likely illegal. In a lot of cases pilots are already breaking the rules on LOS and transmission power, pushing for 10s to 100s of kilometres of range just seems like a way to definitely get noticed and caught out. It is one thing to fly behind some trees or a building or to fly FPV without a spotter, it is another thing entirely to be flying 10s of kilometres away from you. If your drone can still receive signals and send telemetry then anyone else in at least that range of you or the drone can pick up those signals too and the higher power you transmit at the more likely you are to interfere with others and hence the more likely you are to get caught. If your drone is 30 km away and sending telemetry then anyone else within 30 km of you or the drone could receive those signals too, ignoring obstacles. I know they probably won’t be able to decode or interfere with your signals but if it causes disruption then it could even lead to stricter laws. As is the current advice anyway, keep it away from others where possible or keep it legal. Also very long range drones are large or fixed wing and are therefore easier to spot. The 2.4 GHz advantages over 900 MHz are probably enough reason for most people to stick to 2.4 GHz, the lower latency, higher bandwidth, smaller antennas, etc. It would be interesting how the range and power of ELRS (both 900 MHz and 2.4 GHz) compares to the range of DJI drones or air units with controllers and which is best for penetration.
They have a "Long Range Competition" site on the ELRS website. The record for 2.4GHz is 40,6Km @ 25mW. So at 100mW you could get over 80Km range (4x the transmit power = double the range). I can't imagine that any country which limits your transmit power to 100mW does legally allow you to fly such distances.
it is important to note that elrs lacks encryption that has crossfire, its important for some applications btw (Maybe that's why it requires more bitrate?)
Some people in Ukraine might care about that and it's likely the only reason tbs added it but, even the Russian military isn't known to hijack elrs, it's no worry to an average fpv pilot.
This is awesome. The range-vs-wattage-vs-frequency approximation testing at the end were really cool, however I am not so much interested flying long range... My interest with a low frequency system is penetration in obstacle heavy environments (be it trees and vegetation or walls buildings, etc). If this test could be performed with signal PENETRATION in mind, it would answer more questions for my use case. Regardless, awesome video and cool to know where upcoming tech is headed.
Good video Joshua. For the viewers and readers, if you got a radio link that works for you and how you fly, you don't have to change. There is no FOMO here. I'm a confident CRSF flyer and mostly do mountain crusing. But I confess, the huge antenna (900Mhz) is a hassle. Monst of my quads use the L-shaped style. Some the horizontal style (but I prefare the L-shape cause I can avoid the nulls. If it's working, don't try to fix it.
I don’t even build drones yet but once I do/ have the funds I will ! Thank you for all the information I love the videos and watch them all the time !! Keep up the stellar work ! Happy holidays 🤙🏼🎉🎄🎊🎁
Joshua, Mavlink is a pretty verbose protocol; it doesn't use compression and always resends all the data (no incremental updates). So, it will be pretty challenging to make it work over 900MHz with its bandwidth limitations. 2.4G ELRS is a much more suitable candidate for a Mavlink bridge.
The SIK radios (and RFD900x etc) already do bidirectional telemetry on 900 MHz, so it definitely is possible and works very well. Though it still would be great if 2.4G ELRS could support bidirectional mavlink with the RC. Eg something like ELRS airport, but with RC still available. You usually don't need as much uplink bandwidth for mavlink anyway, so taking some of it out to use for RC would be fine.
@@lightningfpv9012 I know. But I'm pretty sure that's a rather low data rate. And it's just a dev branch. My reply was to OP who said 900 MHz isn't good for this because of bandwidth limitations: That's not exactly true, given that the SIK radios have been doing this at 900 MHz for many years.
I like my quality Crossfire 868 link....That moulded 915 mhz Moxon would be good as a boat paddle...A Dipole is more practical unless you want ultimate directional range from the Moxon.... IMO...😳😏🇬🇧
For a range test on 900mhz, put the receiver in your car and drive to find the range.(or leave the receiver at home and take the transmitter to see the range of telemetry).
the way I understand the relationship between power and range is to imagine a sphere. The volume of the sphere is the total output power, the radius of the sphere is the range (from centre point to any point on the surface of the sphere). for example the radius of a sphere with a volume of 10 is 1.34 double the volume to 20 and the radius only increases to 1.68 its not the perfect math for this, but it's a good way to picture in your mind that doubling the power doesn't double the range.
Fantastic review, Joshua! Thanks!!! 😃 If you're doing FPV with rc cars perhaps 900mhz may be a better choice. But I don't know, it depends a lot... Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊 And happy holidays!
Joshua - build a 2.4Ghz quad and put a 900Mhz receiver on it controlling a strobe light Get a friend in his car to drive his 60km (or whatever you calculate it) Every so often he can get out of his car, fly the quad VLOS to a reasonable altitude and see if your 900Mhz transmitter at home can still control the strobe First USA legal range test?
Do inverted long-range testing. Have your quadcopter(s) at a fixed location with spotters you're in communication with and you ride in an aircraft in a pattern of arcs radiating away from the quadcopter flying location. You may need to work with the pilot of the aircraft on authorizations, but this may not be too big a deal.
I just recently switched to ExpressLRS 2.4, and yeah the 900mhz goes further, but like you said, I don’t see a way of doing that legally. But I guess it would be pretty cool to have to capability to do so.
GTrick50 used uLRS to fly 50 miles (80km) straight out over the ocean, and back for 100 miles trip, in a 4 hour flight with a wing wing z84, 4s-7000 18650 pack, and it was fpv. This was a few years ago, he may have broken his record now.
Maybe you can daisy-chain with the crsf port to build a repeater: transmitter 1 - after 30km a receiver + bandit transmitter with crsf input - plane flies > 60 km
Even if you did a range test by driving, it would still require hours of driving to see the end of your range test. We're seeing a potential of nearly 500 miles with good line of sight. That's truly bananas!
I'm running Crossfire on my builds so far because it's more integrated aswell as the fact that I got a module included with my TX16S, also the price being higher doesn't matter much to me as I only have one build so far that needs such a system (coming from planes all my stuff is on Spektrum), but as I get more and more into FPV it might be worth trying out ELRS sometime!
I'm really grateful you take the time to improve the knowledge in our hobby. One would wish that they information about the futaba radios was a bit more thorough... I mean I can make head of tails!! when I go to the Futaba downloads page the label 14 Mz.. and try to download the latest update it literally downloads a 12Mz and that ain't compatible with my equipment!
900mhz video was useless in my area with tons of interference. This was long ago and I had to switch to 1.3ghz I remember. It worked fine. Makes me wonder if 900mhz for control would work here. Seems 1.3 ghz would be better that 2.4 ghz also.
I have been using 868 since I started using ELRS good knows how long ago. First on a modded FRSKY R9 and tnow on the BETA FPV UNIT. I usually fly rate 200. Its super redundant now. Tested up to 4 km range (limited mostly by DJI Air Unit 1 modded and can say its really now better them CRFS.
That 900Mhz ant needs to be vertical with the Cathode down for long range. The cathode is a ground plane and the Anode is the emitter. I know everyone runs them flat on these tiny quads but they would get even better range with them vertical. One of the antenna legs should be ground,that would be your cathode, you just need to orient it down. I've been well over ten miles about 10 years ago with a Sky Hunter on 900Mhz. 30+ minute flights. To clearify, I was using 900Mhz video link and 433Mhz spread spectrum frequency hopping for RC link KF5LDN
I long range my fixed wing with ExpressLRS 2.4G and without even putting much thought into how it's set up and running an HM EP1 receiver that isn't even diversity, I get more range than my 4800mah battery can handle and it doesn't even go above 100mw TX while doing almost 30km. I don't know why anyone whines about 2.4 not having enough range.
There’s a difference between range and penetration, ELRS 2.4 offers great range LOS, but 900mhz gives much better penetration through obstacles even at long range.
I love 2.4Ghz on my quadcopters, but I am most likely going to be using 900Mhz with my ground vehicles. Better penetration, while driving around behind things that are on the ground is the reason for that decision, and with ground vehicles, the longer antenna is not a problem.
I don't know...Personally I prefer huge, flat antennas because sometimes, while flying long range, I work up a mighty powerful hunger. The moxon gives me a place to set my Subway sandwich while flying that's away from the dirt. Soooo... yeah.
The DBm test is flawed. I guess his WiFi is enabled on the 2.4ghz band crowding the band and increasing the noise flor. As well as his phone,computer and access points transmitting close by as well. Other than that, great video.
The -105 dB noise threshold I showed was not live. It is pulled from the datasheet of the modulation chip. It's just an entry in the menu that is the manufacturer's nominal best-case noise floor for that data rate. It is not effected in any way by the RF noise around me.
From someone that has not actually flown out that far... But easily made it out 3.5 miles at only 250mw (That being way more power than needed was still at -80dbm and 100LQ) I can't really see me ever needing 900...
still more likely to go 1w from my current .25w rather than 900kh just because of the antennae. not such a big deal on 7 and 5 inch quads, but micros not really gonna like the big antenna
CaptnBry said Bandit is not in ELRS release yet. So you cannot update the TX and RX just yet. 2000mw settings are indeed in the hardware.html page on the Bandit although I have not tested it.
What is funny is I got the goggles x and I am more concerned of its range limitations because I noticed the bars drop really fast only at 150 ft out and I have no idea what this means so I can’t fly long range. This results in lost sales because people like me feel limited by the video signal.
@@EnglishTurbines when I fly, there are three or four signal bars in the bottom, right hand corner of the screen and they go blank and then I turn around because I’m afraid to test out whether they will return since it will be hard to retrieve my quad where I’m flying - I’m not sure what other cues to review to see if the link quality is still there
868mhz for life. It’s funny to see how things are changing back to 915/868 again 😊 I think there are many benefits to 915. You should take a look at the namimno voyager module, i’ve been using it for like 2/3 years and no big issues, goes 2W, pretty impressive, the latency isn’t even noticable by the human brain i don’t think untill you get below 100hzish Also for T antennas i really don’t mind the size at all, i just bend my null points towards the ground by like 10 degrees or so, that way they don’t end up in the props, i’ve got one quad that’s had the same t antenna for about a year now 😂
I wouldn't say it's going back many people will still run 2.4 but, for long range 915 has always been king and if the build is big enough 433 is even better but, you have to make your own equipment if you want elrs on 433.
@@thirtythreeeyes8624 while people say you can range on 2.4 I fly risky environments and risk mitigation is key. Just can you can doesn’t mean you should. I got the bandit system and run CRSF currently I’m interested to see if been able to use 900 on 200hz is gona be a big deal over the 50hz CRSF
@@thirtythreeeyes8624 tiny little antenna my 7” frame could totally block when it’s flying at you… no thanks.. I race 2.4 elrs and ghost. Love them both but ranging, especially the kind I do.. as I said I’ll take risk mitigation all day every day. Biggest issue with elrs as a long time user is quality control from brand to brand had plenty of hardware up and quit for no reason or have issues with antennas and start micro failsafing. Not so bad on a racer in a paddock but no deal when your 4kms out over open ocean
Good stuff. But I think I won't be switching from crossfire until ELRS makes a FOTA ecosystem that's as easy as the TBS Agent GUI. It's hard enough even with TBS to keep firmwares updated across the fleet. I can't imagine having 29 different ELRS firmwares in play.
Why not to use test with reciever and transmitter on ground? Just put one on mountain and drive with second one in line of sign. It could be done with 2 people and one car.
To do a legal long range test, leave your drone in your house, and take the transmitter a mile (5 miles? more?) down the road. Can you arm the drone? Obviously don't fly - just spin the props. Record a video of the drone, with a clock in the background to mark when you ran each test. How far away can you arm with each transmitter? And it should all be legal because the FAA does not regulate indoor activity, which is where your drone is.
Thanks, Mr Bardwell, this has kept me wondering for a while (900Mhz vs 2.4Ghz). What should we do with our old 40Mhz gear? The submarine-modellers still use it as well as some antique modellers... Perhaps give it to them. By the way... for ELRS I will probably stick to 150Hz Packet Rate, still feels very good and responsive.
JB, could fly up to 10 K like Dji / Autel drones advertise range distance and still give us an example of 900 Ghz versus 2.4 Ghz in Line of Sight flight test? 🤔
The industrial design of the Bandit is excellent compared with the large and dorky Ranger Nano module. When will they release a new version of the Ranger?
Why not build it into that rc car and see how far you can drive it? Should be fun. … do you think they’ll do a flavor of Gemini that does both 900/2.4? Switching to 900 when 2.4 isn’t enough anymore?
The bit you forgot to mention, is ELRS already does 100 km+ on 2.4 GHz, as has been demonstrated. So extremely few people would actually need more range than that... When it comes to bandos & concrete walls, I kinda doubt people will be able to failsafe ELRS 2.4 (without crazy-high packet-rates and crappy antennas that you can't do on 900 anyway) without losing video first.
900 MHz (be it CRSF or ELRS) still is better when dipping behind mountain ridges. 2.4 GHz immediately failsafes when the video link drops while 900 MHz just stays connected a little bit longer so you can pull out of the situation most of the time (just my personal experience).
The noise that transmitter made hitting the ground hurt me inside lol. Great video keep it up JB
You're a celebrity in my book. Thank you for being super intelligent and an amazing teacher! Kudos! 🏆
The big bandit module can actually output anywhere from 10mw to 2000mw and the process to get it to do it is the exact same as the Ranger module. Tested and confirmed it last night! 🤙🏻
tysm
Absolutely!
My stomach flipped when you tossed that radio. Damnit Bardwell. 😆
JB does NOT respect that DX-6, lol
Haha, that was a bloody awesome toss.
Awesome
That remote is garbage
His named Bardwell? Are you serious? He looks like hes 4 feet tall.
I'm getting into long range fpv with a new airplane that just built and this video is exactly what I needed to build the set up I want.
Some comments from the perspective of someone who has taken crossfire out to 121km on a 1.3kg FPV plane:
1) 900 MHz and 1.3ghz analog (still #1 for pure long range) really mess with each other. I run additional notch filters on the video receiver - which already have good filtration to begin with (rmrc brand). On top of that I relay my RC link and video link so I can have each on their own tripod spaced out by 20-100 meters. Even still I see the blips of 900 MHz interference in my video at extreme range. On the RC receiving end of things - I run Matek 1.3g vtx with selectable output power. I avoid the highest power setting when possible (800 mW) because in some cases you can watch SNR db drop on the RX link with increased video output power. This probably has more to do with fresnel zone interference which impacts both video and RC link, placing both on the edge of failure to begin with. Still, it isn’t fun to clear up static with increased vtx output - only to instantly
Send your RC link into failsafe….
2) Having the RC transmitter on a tripod - wirelessly linked to your transmitter is fantastic for long flights. It could in theory be done in the opposite order but you can run say…. Tracer on your radio. Then have the tx pad of your tracer receiver wired to the RX wire of the CRSF input on your 900mhz module. This obviously adds latency and you will never have telemetry - but for long range FPV - it’s fine. Then you don’t have to care how you hold the radio - you can go piss behind a sand dune with your goggles on your forehead, holding the radio by your side…. Just saying….
3) As to how 1.3ghz video and 2.4 ghz RC play together? Idk.. never tried it - but I want to. As you pointed out, antenna size is massively different between 900 and 2.4. I only use a shapeshifter for my 900 long range setup - so not very directional…. For that same size - I could run a 9-12 db yagi on a 2.4 ghz module. This really would help close the range gap between the two frequencies. No free lunch of course - as the high gain yagi is very directional - but so is my
Long range flying… I know what course I will fly within a few degrees days before I fly it - because I plan it that way. I set up my tripods with a compass - directional isn’t an issue for me. Maybe for others it is…. Idk…
Cheers and thanks for the good vids as always.
Thank you for putting so much effort into these videos JB! I am disgusted by the handcuffs these unnecessary regulations have placed on your livelihood. Especially given this hobby's impeccable record of safe flight. This was very informative, and I appreciate it. Take care, and keep up the good work.
Lots of people vote for democrats and then complain when they get exactly what they voted for: bigger, more powerful and oppressive central government and less freedom.
The bizarre thing is that the FAA seems to be fine with the idea of autonomous delivery drones flying without any kind of visual observer.
After failsafing over a tree on 2.4ghz, I went to Crossfire & never failsafed again. Then I went to ELRS 915mhz because what I care most about is not losing an expensive quad. I don't care about the antenna size. They are spring steel cable and the props can't seem to chop the antennas up at all. The insulation gets chopped up, but not the antenna.
If you're interested why lower frequency have better range google "Friis transmission equation" (look at images where Pr = ...). It basically says that received power is proportional to wavelength squared, aka if you lower frequency by 2x the received power increases by 4x (if I understood it correctly)
I love your extensive and clear videos on FPV topics! Thx again!
That poor radio. His name was Steve. He was my best friend. RIP Steve.
I fly with my buddy who has TBS crossfire and I regularly match or exceed his range. We fly in the hills and end up behind obstacles that requires serious penetration. I use ELRS 2.4ghz @ 500hz outputting at 500mw which is about as bad for long range as you can set it... I'm totally blown away with ELRS and the fact that the gear costs les than half
tbs are greedy
Looking to get into the hobby and this video has helped me decide on a decent starter setup. Tx16s with elrs, fatshark scout, skyzone M5, and whatever small cheap Kwad I want to bounce off the walls and learn with. And with the Tx16s I can later upgrade the ag01 gimbals and can upgrade the fatshark scout with rapid fire. Seems a good way to start and not have to upgrade for quite some time and still have a decent rig. And I’ve figured out I’m probably gonna own several quads and fixed wing fpv craft. Super cool that the radiomaster ranger and bandit can be turned into Rx mode. Thanks for the great video!
I am so happy you mentioned these can be used as a reciever! I can't wait to try that!
So far , 2.4 Ghz has not let me down. Even at 17 Km from home . Just a drop of LQ to 80% (500mW - 50hz)
How are you guys getting such phenomenal range from drones? I'm assuming you're doing FPV? Are you just using all patch antennas? Give me your secrets man! 🤣
@@ForEverydayPeople Yes , FPV . Only two helical . 17Km is history . Most recent record is 20Km
@@diverFPV how are you getting a video connection that far? let alone the radio connection
@@Tydud3 If you have high gain directional antennas and you avoid to interfere with the first fresnel zone , it's doable
Thanks for sharing all the great information.
As a mainly PX4/Ardupilot guy, telemetry over ELRS would be absolutely insane. So much cheaper and a little bit less weight. Can't go wrong with that. And I won't have to worry about my telemetry radio losing connection before my controller does! Woohoo!!
Wezlay Varty is a hero! We love him! Testing must be excluded from range laws as long as it can prove he does a safe flight.
yes the symmetrical telemetry and native mavlink support is gonna be a gamechanger for long-range
One reason i dont hear people talking about is that going 900mhz frees up the 2.4 ghz band for video
Just to test the difference regarding both systems you do not need to fligh, just do a ground test with your car!
Just an idea!
I think JB tried everything. That's why he is so confident about 915 is x8 thd range of 2.4. Just to be on the legal side need to be done this way. In fhis country is important not what you do, but what you say.
For most people it seems like the 2.4 GHz will have more range than they will ever need anyway, even at the 100 mW limit in the UK and EU, it seems the main need to go to 900 MHz is if you fly extremely long range, 10s of kilometres or more (even though the 2.4 GHz ELRS can apparently reach into the low 10s of kilometres) but like you mentioned that is illegal in most places.
It would probably be a lot more useful once it can be used with fully autonomous drones but again flying those long range is likely illegal.
In a lot of cases pilots are already breaking the rules on LOS and transmission power, pushing for 10s to 100s of kilometres of range just seems like a way to definitely get noticed and caught out. It is one thing to fly behind some trees or a building or to fly FPV without a spotter, it is another thing entirely to be flying 10s of kilometres away from you. If your drone can still receive signals and send telemetry then anyone else in at least that range of you or the drone can pick up those signals too and the higher power you transmit at the more likely you are to interfere with others and hence the more likely you are to get caught. If your drone is 30 km away and sending telemetry then anyone else within 30 km of you or the drone could receive those signals too, ignoring obstacles. I know they probably won’t be able to decode or interfere with your signals but if it causes disruption then it could even lead to stricter laws. As is the current advice anyway, keep it away from others where possible or keep it legal. Also very long range drones are large or fixed wing and are therefore easier to spot.
The 2.4 GHz advantages over 900 MHz are probably enough reason for most people to stick to 2.4 GHz, the lower latency, higher bandwidth, smaller antennas, etc.
It would be interesting how the range and power of ELRS (both 900 MHz and 2.4 GHz) compares to the range of DJI drones or air units with controllers and which is best for penetration.
They have a "Long Range Competition" site on the ELRS website. The record for 2.4GHz is 40,6Km @ 25mW. So at 100mW you could get over 80Km range (4x the transmit power = double the range). I can't imagine that any country which limits your transmit power to 100mW does legally allow you to fly such distances.
I think people forget how big USA is. Nobody cares if you are flying 40km in Montana. People just don’t care
❤Exellent explanation of feeling the bass, the low frequency❤
it is important to note that elrs lacks encryption that has crossfire, its important for some applications btw
(Maybe that's why it requires more bitrate?)
Crossfire requires more bitrate even if you're not using encryption. The protocol is just "fatter" and more full featured.
Thanks JB ! We need more new, powerful and reliable LR systems here in Ukraine to fight with russia invaders !@@JoshuaBardwell
Some people in Ukraine might care about that and it's likely the only reason tbs added it but, even the Russian military isn't known to hijack elrs, it's no worry to an average fpv pilot.
Ukrainian army is already adapting this as a replace of crossfire. Thank you for update that make easier to help them with troubleshooting🎉
This is awesome. The range-vs-wattage-vs-frequency approximation testing at the end were really cool, however I am not so much interested flying long range... My interest with a low frequency system is penetration in obstacle heavy environments (be it trees and vegetation or walls buildings, etc). If this test could be performed with signal PENETRATION in mind, it would answer more questions for my use case. Regardless, awesome video and cool to know where upcoming tech is headed.
Penetration and range are the same thing. For more on that: ruclips.net/video/nb0a9YORAks/видео.html
Good video Joshua. For the viewers and readers, if you got a radio link that works for you and how you fly, you don't have to change. There is no FOMO here. I'm a confident CRSF flyer and mostly do mountain crusing. But I confess, the huge antenna (900Mhz) is a hassle. Monst of my quads use the L-shaped style. Some the horizontal style (but I prefare the L-shape cause I can avoid the nulls. If it's working, don't try to fix it.
915mhz for life
I don’t even build drones yet but once I do/ have the funds I will ! Thank you for all the information I love the videos and watch them all the time !! Keep up the stellar work ! Happy holidays 🤙🏼🎉🎄🎊🎁
that hand toss with the controller... funny af
ELRS 4life boyee!! ❤😂
Joshua, Mavlink is a pretty verbose protocol; it doesn't use compression and always resends all the data (no incremental updates). So, it will be pretty challenging to make it work over 900MHz with its bandwidth limitations. 2.4G ELRS is a much more suitable candidate for a Mavlink bridge.
The SIK radios (and RFD900x etc) already do bidirectional telemetry on 900 MHz, so it definitely is possible and works very well.
Though it still would be great if 2.4G ELRS could support bidirectional mavlink with the RC. Eg something like ELRS airport, but with RC still available. You usually don't need as much uplink bandwidth for mavlink anyway, so taking some of it out to use for RC would be fine.
@@Vousie ELRS dev are working on this, mavlink-rc branch, they have tested it up to 100km.
@@lightningfpv9012 I know. But I'm pretty sure that's a rather low data rate. And it's just a dev branch. My reply was to OP who said 900 MHz isn't good for this because of bandwidth limitations: That's not exactly true, given that the SIK radios have been doing this at 900 MHz for many years.
doing mavlink over sik and crsf for awhile now.
I like my quality Crossfire 868 link....That moulded 915 mhz Moxon would be good as a boat paddle...A Dipole is more practical unless you want ultimate directional range from the Moxon.... IMO...😳😏🇬🇧
Seems like a good step to get more heli and airplane guys into drones. They generally use high end radios.
For a range test on 900mhz, put the receiver in your car and drive to find the range.(or leave the receiver at home and take the transmitter to see the range of telemetry).
the way I understand the relationship between power and range is to imagine a sphere. The volume of the sphere is the total output power, the radius of the sphere is the range (from centre point to any point on the surface of the sphere).
for example the radius of a sphere with a volume of 10 is 1.34
double the volume to 20 and the radius only increases to 1.68
its not the perfect math for this, but it's a good way to picture in your mind that doubling the power doesn't double the range.
Unless you have directional antennas?
That's the correct derivation of the inverse square law, yes. The surface area of the spherical expanding wavefront grows as the square of the radius.
Directional antenna are still subject to the inverse square law.
I wish they had a 915Mhz PWM receiver for the MT12, although only the nano module will fit the MT12.
Sometimes(long-range quad) antennas are a plus. Love your content
Imma still rock the ELRS R9m
Fantastic review, Joshua! Thanks!!! 😃
If you're doing FPV with rc cars perhaps 900mhz may be a better choice. But I don't know, it depends a lot...
Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
And happy holidays!
you can fly long range. its just a bvlos permit and airspace communications . you need adsb and a few other things but you can absolutely do it.
Go look up how many BVLOS waivers have been approved. None of them are for individual hobbyists.
Thank you so much for preparing such an informative video.
The boxer is a perfect one!
Joshua - build a 2.4Ghz quad and put a 900Mhz receiver on it controlling a strobe light
Get a friend in his car to drive his 60km (or whatever you calculate it)
Every so often he can get out of his car, fly the quad VLOS to a reasonable altitude and see if your 900Mhz transmitter at home can still control the strobe
First USA legal range test?
Crossfire for Life!!!!...... Until something better comes out from TBS.
Do inverted long-range testing. Have your quadcopter(s) at a fixed location with spotters you're in communication with and you ride in an aircraft in a pattern of arcs radiating away from the quadcopter flying location. You may need to work with the pilot of the aircraft on authorizations, but this may not be too big a deal.
"ride in an aircraft" is an expensive start to a simple test when we already know the range is bonkers.
Hahah the spectrum toss caught me off guard
I just recently switched to ExpressLRS 2.4, and yeah the 900mhz goes further, but like you said, I don’t see a way of doing that legally. But I guess it would be pretty cool to have to capability to do so.
GTrick50 used uLRS to fly 50 miles (80km) straight out over the ocean, and back for 100 miles trip, in a 4 hour flight with a wing wing z84, 4s-7000 18650 pack, and it was fpv. This was a few years ago, he may have broken his record now.
Opps, he is called gTrick90
Maybe you can daisy-chain with the crsf port to build a repeater: transmitter 1 - after 30km a receiver + bandit transmitter with crsf input - plane flies > 60 km
Elrs has went 100km on 2.4ghz. The only reason for a relay is flying beyond line of site like the other side of a mountain.
Even if you did a range test by driving, it would still require hours of driving to see the end of your range test. We're seeing a potential of nearly 500 miles with good line of sight. That's truly bananas!
curve of the earth has gotta play into that at some point unless it bounces off the ionosphere
I'm running Crossfire on my builds so far because it's more integrated aswell as the fact that I got a module included with my TX16S, also the price being higher doesn't matter much to me as I only have one build so far that needs such a system (coming from planes all my stuff is on Spektrum), but as I get more and more into FPV it might be worth trying out ELRS sometime!
Elrs puts crossfire to shame. Packet rates are 2-3 times faster
@@Carboneye7 I haven't had any issue with crossfire so far, but ELRS is definitely the way forward for RC protocols.
Been waiting for this!
My first thought was Ola Englund when he was playing guitar in a anechoic chamber 😂. Sound waves are interesting
I'm really grateful you take the time to improve the knowledge in our hobby. One would wish that they information about the futaba radios was a bit more thorough... I mean I can make head of tails!! when I go to the Futaba downloads page the label 14 Mz.. and try to download the latest update it literally downloads a 12Mz and that ain't compatible with my equipment!
900mhz video was useless in my area with tons of interference. This was long ago and I had to switch to 1.3ghz I remember. It worked fine. Makes me wonder if 900mhz for control would work here. Seems 1.3 ghz would be better that 2.4 ghz also.
man...the bounce on that radio! haha
BTW when he talked about the modules going up to 1w he meant the radiomaster bandit modules not the radiomaster ranger 13:41
What's the point with 900MHz for FPV, when regular ELRS goes twice the distance of any digital video system.
I have been using 868 since I started using ELRS good knows how long ago. First on a modded FRSKY R9 and tnow on the BETA FPV UNIT. I usually fly rate 200. Its super redundant now. Tested up to 4 km range (limited mostly by DJI Air Unit 1 modded and can say its really now better them CRFS.
You should find a nice open road and stick a receiver on your car roof and range test
That 900Mhz ant needs to be vertical with the Cathode down for long range. The cathode is a ground plane and the Anode is the emitter. I know everyone runs them flat on these tiny quads but they would get even better range with them vertical. One of the antenna legs should be ground,that would be your cathode, you just need to orient it down.
I've been well over ten miles about 10 years ago with a Sky Hunter on 900Mhz. 30+ minute flights.
To clearify, I was using 900Mhz video link and 433Mhz spread spectrum frequency hopping for RC link
KF5LDN
been running the big boi ranger, you better believe i'm picking up the big boi bandit lol
900 megs is also attenuated lower in buildings means goes better trough a wall
I long range my fixed wing with ExpressLRS 2.4G and without even putting much thought into how it's set up and running an HM EP1 receiver that isn't even diversity, I get more range than my 4800mah battery can handle and it doesn't even go above 100mw TX while doing almost 30km. I don't know why anyone whines about 2.4 not having enough range.
There’s a difference between range and penetration, ELRS 2.4 offers great range LOS, but 900mhz gives much better penetration through obstacles even at long range.
@@10fantic Yes. This is why I did not use the word penetration in my comment.
Nope! Still going to use my Crossfire. When ELRS gets a simple bind button I’ll consider switching. My .02
Got to try that 500mw telemetry
Great Video as Always.
Also have you seen the New Jumper T-20S GEMINI - Long Range ELRS Radio - 2 Transmitters in 1 radio.
I had elrs 900 way back when. I turned my r9 system to elrs.
There was no pillow or couch behind him after that toss hahaha!
I love 2.4Ghz on my quadcopters, but I am most likely going to be using 900Mhz with my ground vehicles. Better penetration, while driving around behind things that are on the ground is the reason for that decision, and with ground vehicles, the longer antenna is not a problem.
For the time being, I don't think there are any 900 MHz PWM receivers though. But the idea makes sense.
The BETAFPV SuperP is also in 900.
Or just convert any current 900 Rx into 3 ch PWM Rx.
I don't know...Personally I prefer huge, flat antennas because sometimes, while flying long range, I work up a mighty powerful hunger. The moxon gives me a place to set my Subway sandwich while flying that's away from the dirt. Soooo... yeah.
The DBm test is flawed. I guess his WiFi is enabled on the 2.4ghz band crowding the band and increasing the noise flor. As well as his phone,computer and access points transmitting close by as well. Other than that, great video.
The -105 dB noise threshold I showed was not live. It is pulled from the datasheet of the modulation chip. It's just an entry in the menu that is the manufacturer's nominal best-case noise floor for that data rate. It is not effected in any way by the RF noise around me.
That make sense, my bad.
Great video once again 🙃
From someone that has not actually flown out that far... But easily made it out 3.5 miles at only 250mw (That being way more power than needed was still at -80dbm and 100LQ) I can't really see me ever needing 900...
still more likely to go 1w from my current .25w rather than 900kh just because of the antennae. not such a big deal on 7 and 5 inch quads, but micros not really gonna like the big antenna
CaptnBry said Bandit is not in ELRS release yet. So you cannot update the TX and RX just yet. 2000mw settings are indeed in the hardware.html page on the Bandit although I have not tested it.
Awesome for ELRS.
13:53 - 14:10 Do we know what Radiomaster was hinting towards in regard to them having some more surprises in store for the big module?
Don't worry guys he has RTL function on that radio
What is funny is I got the goggles x and I am more concerned of its range limitations because I noticed the bars drop really fast only at 150 ft out and I have no idea what this means so I can’t fly long range. This results in lost sales because people like me feel limited by the video signal.
Walksnail has been out 50kms....You need to learn about your purchase...😳🙄🇬🇧
@@EnglishTurbines when I fly, there are three or four signal bars in the bottom, right hand corner of the screen and they go blank and then I turn around because I’m afraid to test out whether they will return since it will be hard to retrieve my quad where I’m flying - I’m not sure what other cues to review to see if the link quality is still there
868mhz for life.
It’s funny to see how things are changing back to 915/868 again 😊
I think there are many benefits to 915.
You should take a look at the namimno voyager module, i’ve been using it for like 2/3 years and no big issues, goes 2W, pretty impressive, the latency isn’t even noticable by the human brain i don’t think untill you get below 100hzish
Also for T antennas i really don’t mind the size at all, i just bend my null points towards the ground by like 10 degrees or so, that way they don’t end up in the props, i’ve got one quad that’s had the same t antenna for about a year now 😂
not really its more about using the right thing for the right job... you wouldn't race 915 any more... that wasn't a good time frankly
I wouldn't say it's going back many people will still run 2.4 but, for long range 915 has always been king and if the build is big enough 433 is even better but, you have to make your own equipment if you want elrs on 433.
@@thirtythreeeyes8624 while people say you can range on 2.4 I fly risky environments and risk mitigation is key. Just can you can doesn’t mean you should. I got the bandit system and run CRSF currently I’m interested to see if been able to use 900 on 200hz is gona be a big deal over the 50hz CRSF
@@Sugar_K Even on 2.4, video is gonna be the limiting factor more than control unless you're running some serious antenna on the goggles.
@@thirtythreeeyes8624 tiny little antenna my 7” frame could totally block when it’s flying at you… no thanks.. I race 2.4 elrs and ghost. Love them both but ranging, especially the kind I do.. as I said I’ll take risk mitigation all day every day. Biggest issue with elrs as a long time user is quality control from brand to brand had plenty of hardware up and quit for no reason or have issues with antennas and start micro failsafing. Not so bad on a racer in a paddock but no deal when your 4kms out over open ocean
Good stuff. But I think I won't be switching from crossfire until ELRS makes a FOTA ecosystem that's as easy as the TBS Agent GUI. It's hard enough even with TBS to keep firmwares updated across the fleet. I can't imagine having 29 different ELRS firmwares in play.
Funny. It's in the works actually.
I was told for at least one year, that 2.4 ghz was as good as 900mhz (never believed it). It is a relevant difference from my personal testing…
The argument should never be that 2.4 us equivalent. But there is a good argument that 2.4 is more than enough.
Why not to use test with reciever and transmitter on ground? Just put one on mountain and drive with second one in line of sign. It could be done with 2 people and one car.
The terrain in Tennessee isn't like that. Find me a place where I have clear LOS for 50 km from a mountain top.
"I'm all 'bout that bass, 'bout that bass, no treble"
there are wufi boosters available..but one on the quad and you have 1w both ways
ELRS started with modded 900MHz R9 modules. So it always was a thing.
The very first elrs was actually diy 433mhz modules I believe.
Oh great I bought all 2.4 lol but I still use crsf religiously
do they offer handoff? if i flew it halfway could someone on the other side receive it and continue the flight?
Yes. You'd just need two transmitters with the same bind phrase. Once one loses link or powers down, the other takes over.
great video as always! I was wondering if the full module has the 2w hack like the ranger. Could you please verify?
To do a legal long range test, leave your drone in your house, and take the transmitter a mile (5 miles? more?) down the road. Can you arm the drone? Obviously don't fly - just spin the props. Record a video of the drone, with a clock in the background to mark when you ran each test. How far away can you arm with each transmitter? And it should all be legal because the FAA does not regulate indoor activity, which is where your drone is.
A proper long range test requires clear line of sight between the receiver and the controller.
Thanks, Mr Bardwell, this has kept me wondering for a while (900Mhz vs 2.4Ghz). What should we do with our old 40Mhz gear? The submarine-modellers still use it as well as some antique modellers... Perhaps give it to them. By the way... for ELRS I will probably stick to 150Hz Packet Rate, still feels very good and responsive.
There are folks playing with 144MHz ELRS, that'd probably work well for the submarine folks.
JB, could fly up to 10 K like Dji / Autel drones advertise range distance and still give us an example of 900 Ghz versus 2.4 Ghz in Line of Sight flight test? 🤔
From the way you described it I assume that the moxon antenna is basically an enclosed beam antenna
The industrial design of the Bandit is excellent compared with the large and dorky Ranger Nano module. When will they release a new version of the Ranger?
Very interesting.
I guess though your video link will be much worse so I think my 50Hz 2.4 GHZ 250mW is more than enough .
Why not build it into that rc car and see how far you can drive it? Should be fun. … do you think they’ll do a flavor of Gemini that does both 900/2.4? Switching to 900 when 2.4 isn’t enough anymore?
The bit you forgot to mention, is ELRS already does 100 km+ on 2.4 GHz, as has been demonstrated. So extremely few people would actually need more range than that...
When it comes to bandos & concrete walls, I kinda doubt people will be able to failsafe ELRS 2.4 (without crazy-high packet-rates and crappy antennas that you can't do on 900 anyway) without losing video first.
900 MHz (be it CRSF or ELRS) still is better when dipping behind mountain ridges. 2.4 GHz immediately failsafes when the video link drops while 900 MHz just stays connected a little bit longer so you can pull out of the situation most of the time (just my personal experience).
@@disco.volante Ok, but still, won't you lose video long before you failsafe?
Yup. This will now be the definitive link I post when a Spektrum fan boi starts going off on the socials :)