Sean didn't say Moses definitely wrote Jubilees. He said Jubilees makes the declaration that Moses wrote it while the Torah didn't actually make that claim. 5:54
Hey! While you are here, if you are interested in what SCRIPTURE says about a very important topic-the Sabbath-you might like my book. It's called "Remember the Sabbath: What the New Testament Says About Sabbath Observance for Christians." Check it out here: sabbathbook.com/
Mr. Wilber’s book “remember the sabbath” is an excellent book! It covers much more than just the Sabbath and is a great resource for personal growth and sharing with friends and family that might be interested in wether or not Christians should keep the sabbath. Can’t recommend it enough. It is very well written.
This is a much needed teaching. Thank you so much for risking the controversy in order to speak forth truth. Far too many RUclips ministries these days spend WAY TOO MUCH time and energy on studying and teaching extra Biblical books. It's sad to see the huge followings that chase after these kind of deceptive ideas. May the Father continue to bless you and guide you into more and more truth as the end approaches. There's still plenty of work for all of us to do. :)
Very ironic! I am literally having conversations on the FB page about this very topic. Someone asked if it's wrong to have relations with your spouse on Sabbath. They keep quoting jubilees and calling the Torah rabbinic tradition. I stumbled upon your article and it outlined the same concerns I had. I attached it in my response to someone. We will see what happens.....
Slander? I played your own words, Sean. You explicitly said that the Torah does not claim to be God's revelation through Moses, despite numerous passages that clearly make this claim. You said that the Torah was not attributed to Moses until Maimonides in the 12th century AD, again, despite numerous passages that attribute the Torah to Moses. Did you make those statements or not?
Sean, it is very typical of you to accuse people of slander, being unloving, etc. when your heretical teachings are challenged. Several of us who have had similar discussions with you aren’t falling for it, and hopefully one day your audience won’t either. You should publicly repent, and consider deleting your organization’s platforms which you use to make money off false doctrine.
Every single time anyone accurately confronts Sean on his teaching of false doctrines he tries to frame it as slander. It's not slander if it's the truthful warning against the teachings of an unrepentant false teacher
Hi David, You might have seen my earlier comment defending Sean however it has been deleted as you made an excellent rebuttal. Today had some suspicions and this video made them acutely more pressing and looking very much forward to hear Sean's response. Thanks for the good work and would like very much if you could do more of the point by point rebuttals. So far you are definitely correct and hope that "IF" this continues to its full culmination to exposing that Sean's teaching are false that he will humble himself and repent. Sean has a large following and even myself was a regular listener so know this should be ironed out to the end.
I would love to see this "video debate" continue, if only to help open people's eyes. I used to follow Sean as an online torah teacher. His ideas forced me to go back into scripture and study certain topics. I found I disagreed often, but it was still good study time. I unsubscribed to everything he does roughly a year ago. I got the feeling back then that he puts Jubilees as the foundation for his faith, as the most important book. This will result in everything being re-interpreted to fit Jubilees. After my own study on jubilees, I believe it to be a completely false book with many many issues (most of which David brought up in his videos). There are still a few small tidbits that were not brought up... like Jubilees assigning the sin primarily to Lot, so that all his seed are wiped out, yet the NT (2nd peter 2) calls Lot righteous. The way I read the OT has the daughters committing the sin, while Lot was a victim. This may seem like small distinctions, but I feel they are important. Even the statement that no one has done anything like that since Adam to Lot... is quite a stretch. I don't believe it. Especially in the times of Noah! Jubilees also changes the character of Isaac in his interactions with the philistines. In the canon, Isaac has a peaceful meal and departs. Isaac's servants dig a well and find water. However, in Jubilees, Isaac's servants dig a dry well and Isaac curses the philistines to death (so that none are saved on judgment day). Anyway, I can't follow a teacher that has this book as his foundation; this will possibly taint all of his other teachings. He is seeing and interpreting everything through the lens of Jubilees.
This is the next chapter of a fallen Kingdom on Earth, grown men with head knowledge rallying up their herd and creating public division instead of reaching out to each other and debating this in private. Maybe the views have taken priority over the “Church”
Yes, I encourage everyone to personally look into things for themselves rather than just taking people’s word. But people who try to discredit scholars in order to protect their special book from criticism immediately make me suspicious. That’s the same thing Mormons do when people question the Book of Mormon. And ironically, it’s a way of shutting down honest inquiry. When fringe Internet teachers try to shut down someone questioning their special book, better look into it for yourself. Just saying.
Good stuff brother i have recently had a few people i know make reference to seans channel. I watched a video they sent to me and within 10 minutes i was already heavily disturbed. His consistently reference to the book of jubilees being one of the issues. Glad your standing on truth agianst him. Keep it up!
Your rationalist approach to topics like this is refreshing. Sadly i have seen most people in the hebrewroots/pronomion movment reject reason and blindly accept conspiracies like the flat earth and think they possess some secret knowlege. This makes pronomions look crazy to other Christians . I hope it will change. Even i was drawn to books like enoch but i watched your videos and realised the truth. Your channel has been one of these channels who dont have much subscribers but whose information and message has impacted me greatly. I just kept my first Sabbath last week.
Flat earth is scientifically sound and exceptionally Biblical once you put it to the test. But I agree with you on certain points. One thing I noticed when flat earth started blowing up is that many people, specifically mostly atheists, were coming to Christ & became Christian. This was a huge win for the side of creationists. However, that obviously threatened the enemy so much that I'm convinced he had to do some damage control. What happened is I believe satan infiltrated the flat earth movement and poured out confusion & false doctrine into the mix of the truth of flat earth to stray these freshly new converts. With some he duped them into straight up denying the deity of Christ & the Trinity, others were duped into going new age, & some were duped into believing the Israelites were black and Jesus only came to save black people. I hate to admit that we have an enemy who is not that stupid. But rest assured that the flat earth is not nonsense & has brought many into saving faith, the problem is where there's a win on our side, the enemy will try to combat it his way. His globe/evolution deception started crumbling, it doesn't surprise me he had to find other means of deceiving new converts.
30:54 oh wow, I it's a stretch to say he is trying to build his own kingdom and that's why he's getting this issue wrong. It's dangerous to imply you know his mind and heart beyond this issue. Once again, I do not watch his channel. I disagree with him on many many things but I also disagree with you on a few things. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean you're being purposefully misinforming for your own benefit. Granted, my disagreement with you is on much smaller issues. I agree that some of these guys start on this path of discovering truths after being misled for so long then they continue to believe everything is a lie and they go overboard but.to say you know he's being deceptive with intention of destroying other people's spiritual welfare. He really believes that Jubilees is scriptural or do you think he knows it's wrong and is purposefully disregarding the truth with intent on destroying others lives? That's a pretty bold claim. I think you made a video and used his name and it made him angry so he replied with anger and used your name. Now I think you're saying some things you shouldn't say because of anger.
Sean said that the Torah does not claim to be God's revelation through Moses, despite numerous passages that clearly make this claim. He said that the Torah was not attributed to Moses until Maimonides in the 12th century AD, again, despite numerous passages that attribute the Torah to Moses. As I said in my video, Sean's blatant falsehoods concerning the Torah raise questions about whether he has actually read it. The other option is that he is intentionally misleading people. Those are the only two options I could think of. I guess another potential option is that he misspoke, but he literally repeated these false claims several times.
I hear ya. His video was literally all about me, and even I struggled to get through it. I’m just not into listening to someone ramble on and on for hours. Some people like it though.
So many of the points you made in this video I also noticed when I watched Sean's video. First and foremost you are absolutely correct that Sean, and many others, begin their "critique" of Jubilees with the assumption it should be part of our cannon. Therefore they fall into the the trap of confirmation bias, where everything, no matter how manipulated or twisted confirms their belief. This is dangerous when considering that amount of influence Sean has on social media. Second, Sean constantly contradicts himself and the Bible in his rebuttal. It is unfortunate, but it does expose the issues with his arguments, and discredits his ability to actually study and teach Scripture while resisting his own biases. We certainly all have biases, but good teachers are able to resist those, challenge them according to truth, and change what needs to be changed. Sean does not demonstrate this ability, not in this video nor in his debates. Finally, I agree with David's conclusion for those who follow Sean, do not get swept up into this stuff. Sean sounds like he knows what he's talking about, but he regularly demonstrates in his videos that he typically only presents what agrees with his pre-established conclusions and beliefs. Thanks again David for your thoughtful approach.
Also they use Jubilees chapter 6 for the foundation of the calendar they keep. Also Enoch. And Enoch tells them how many days are in 8 years time. They use these books for the foundation for the calendar they keep. Then when they figure out nature doesn't line up with foundation build on these two books guess what they do? Rather then throw out the calendar they rip the foundation they build out by making excuses as to why it is ok to not have exactly 52 like Jubilees chapter 6 tells them and also Enoch. Therefore the foundation that was build which is exactly 364 days in a year from both books is violated. They do this Rather than throwing out the information as not being correct. I do believe there is a bad spirit over these counting calendars!
People who believe firmly in 66 books ONLY, also fall into a trap of confirmation bias...don't you think. If we just assume we know less than 1% about anything...we become a lot more humble and teachable.
You blew Kingdom in Context out of the water. Thank you so much for how you have edified believers and given us confidence in the teachings of Scripture.
Shalom and blessings David. I hope you are well Brother. Excellent and edifying rebuttal, and once I again I commend you for your use of scholarly resources. Every blessing to you and yours Brother. David (UK)
Scholarly Should not mean anything... For all man is biased in their education.. Test and discern everything Does not mean Looking into someone else's heart. But yes David did a good job!
I enjoy these videos. I notice that people who push books like Enoch and Jubilees more often than not have some of the worst doctrine, and that these books become borderline idols.
We all need to agree to disagree on some topics and be filled with humility and love for our brothers & sisters in Messiah. Let's just be patient in Yeshua Will straighten this all out one day?😊
Not that this is neither here nor there, but remember Liiighthouse? I was so looking forward to it. I just couldn't understand the lack of communication and transparency. Just no response. It was very odd.
I just made a video about Sean this week and it premieres Tonight on Sabbath @ 730, Someone just sent me this video and wow and the timing. I noticed we were friends on FB for years. Shalom My friend.
When are you going to do a teaching on the trinity? Also 119 ministries has also not done a teaching on this. It is supposedly a salvation issue, yet I see that this topic has been avoided
Thanks for reaching out. I believe the trinity is a biblical doctrine and have not avoided it at all. I personally have published several articles and videos on related topics, particularly defending the Messiah's deity. For example, see my recent video on Philippians 2:5-11. These are all available for free on my channel and website. Also, a couple of years ago, my publishing company, Pronomian Publishing, put out a book by Joshua Ensley titled "A Pocket Guide to the Doctrine of the Trinity." I also did an interview with Ensley where we discussed the topic in depth, which is also available on RUclips. I have been very clear about my position. I don't think people who reject the trinity aren't saved, but it is a biblical doctrine. Hope that helps!
@@DavidWilberBlog Thank you for responding. I am a friend and fan of Sean, so I am biased towards him, but I do respect and enjoy much of your content, and you were actually the first person to start to open my eyes to the truth of the Sabbath months ago, long before I ever knew about Kingdom in Context. So I am forever grateful for that, as you in part led me to torah. The thing is, when I do a search on your channel with the keyword "trinity" I do not see any video results with the word "trinity" in the title. So if you have mentioned it in passing in other videos, that's understandable, but I think you can see why it would appear as if you haven't done a teaching on it, if you haven't made a dedicated video about the topic with the word in the title, at least not on RUclips. I would really appreciate a teaching on the trinity whislt touching on why it is not a salvation issue. I personally don't believe that it is, as I believe all who confess christ as the messiah come in the flesh and operate in love to others are of God, as 1 John makes clear. But this is a topic that is causing a lot of strife and reviling from the trinitarian community to the non-trinitarian communities, even amongst torah followers, and I think it is of much more importance than whether Jubilees is inspired. Here's why: If you believe Jubiliees is inspired and so you do something like fast on the Sabbath, that has no real negative consequences even if it isn't scripture. I'm not saying it isn't important to get this right in regards to Jubilees, however many trinitarians go around condemning people to Hell and reviling others based on the belief that the trinity is a salvation issue. And wrongfully condemning someone to Hell is an ACTUAL salvation issue last time I checked. [Luk 6:37 CSB] 37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Lastly, it feels as if you were rather ungracious to Sean in this video, you are two very intelligent dedicated men of God. You accused him of either not reading the Torah or willfully misleading others, yet I have never heard you speak with such a condemning tone when talking about Protestant preachers who straight up say the law is done away with, such as John Macarther. I don't think you would ever accuse John of not having read the OT or to be willfully misleading others. Sean is telling people to keep the commandments of God and be loving to others. Is Sean really worse than the majority of these other teachers such as a John Macarthuer who tell people to eat swine, break the sabbath and condemn others for keeping the law or not believing in the trinity, solely because he believes that Enoch and Jubilees are inspired? If you never address the topic I suggested, I pray you at least reflect on my last point. If you read this far, I appreciate it, God bless.
@@youngdonreborn Thank you for the comment, my friend. I'm deeply encouraged to hear that the Lord used me in your journey of discovering the Sabbath and Torah. I will take your suggestion into consideration. I have been working on a book defending the Messiah's deity, but it is slow-going. In any case, regarding Sean, I was indeed harsh. But that's because I considered his comments to be very serious. When contrasting Jubilees with the Torah, he stated that the Torah does not claim to be God's revelation through Moses, that Moses did not write it, and that nobody attributed the Torah to Moses until the 12th century AD. These comments were shocking and demonstrably false, as I demonstrated. I honestly don't know how to explain these blatant falsehoods other than the options I gave: either he hasn't read the Torah or he is intentionally misleading people to bolster Jubilees. It's possible that he misspoke, but since he repeated these false claims multiple times in his video, that possibility seems less reasonable. Anyway, I hope he publicly recants these false statements. I was not harsh with Sean merely for believing Jubilees is inspired but for denigrating the Torah. I hope that helps explain my harsh tone. Blessings!
@@DavidWilberBlog Okay brother, my final point is that I believe you are misrepresenting Sean's position on the first 5 books of the Bible. Sean very seldomly uses these extra biblical sources such as Jubiliees or Encoch to support theology and when he does it is always for the sake of giving additional support to the canocial scriptures (unless discussing topics that are simply not addressed in the canon in detail such as the history of the Nephalim or the workings of the heavenly bodies). The point that I think Sean is making is that the Book of Jubilees directly claims that it's author is Moses. However, you will not find a single verse in the bood of "Exodus" for instance that claims it was penned by Moses. Sean ofcourse regards these books as scriptures, is uncompromising about what they teach and preaches from them quite often. To say he holds Jubilees to a higher standard than Genesis or Leviticus, is just not true brother. He is simply stating that the collection of writings that is now labelled as "Genesis", nowhere in Genesis, does it claim to be written by Moses. Nor in the other 4 books of the Torah does it claim that it was written by Moses. He doesn't dispute that the things in these book are true, just that we have accepted that these books were penned exclusively by Moses based on the opinions of men who came long after these books were written. The Law of Moses refers specifically to the commandments given on Mount Sinai, not the entirety of Gen-Deuteronomy. Also, we know Moses didn't write Deuteronomy by himself as it even documents his death, it is merely a educated guess that Joshua must have written the last portion of it, but many believe it was Ezra who completed Deuteronomy. But I believe your bias agaisnt Sean is causing you to hear something other than what he is claiming. Ultimately I truly do love you brother, and I still watch your videos, this is just good ol' fashion YT beef, going back to y'all debating about Enoch, it is what it is. Sean is a great teacher, and so are you, y'all disagree on these writings, but ulitmately, y'all agree on the important stuff, that is, how we will take part in the ressurection. Keeping the commandments, and loving others.
Wow, that was very direct. Would you agree with the idea that we have deuterocanonical books, which the church reads for instruction or general understanding, but they are not authoritative in establishing doctrine? My red flag with Sean was when he claimed to have the gift of "discernment" and he can "see" things that happened to people in the past.
I believe that the apocrypha (Sirach, 1-2 Maccabees, Tobit, etc.) and pseudepigrapha (Enoch, Jubilees, etc.) are valuable sources of information to glean insights about the various beliefs and practices of Jews during the Second Temple era. These writings are relevant to New Testament background studies. We should not get our theology from these writings. Sean's claim that he has superpowers is unsurprising. Very common among cult leaders. I knew a religious leader who went to prison and claimed to be able to cause his "spirit" to exit his body, fly through the prison walls, and listen to people's conversations hundreds of miles away.
I would like to have that video info as well. I have never heard that claim from sean and is concerning so if we are going to make these claims please provide the info where we can hear this claim.
@@gpd215 It was in an interview with Doug on Pinecreek back in 2020. Reminded me of Mark Driscoll's claims in 2008 of "seeing" things while counseling people. The 42 minute mark. ruclips.net/user/liveb0kYLnCpKKM?feature=share
@@DavidWilberBlog In an Interview Sean had on the Pinecreek RUclips channel, Sean admits to having & using superpowers in his ministry. He calls his superpowers: "words of knowledge". Sean claims God gives him the ability to see into certain select events of people's lives in order so that he can help them 🤔
Thank you for this video. I have been following Sean for a little over a year and he really had me hooked at first. However, I have recently been getting a very strong self-promotion vibe from him. His debates with other Christians have led me to further question his intentions. I don't know him personally and make no judgement about him, but the further along I go the more I find myself avoiding his content. Honestly, I question everyone's content at this point. Everyone thinks they have it all figured out yet so many people become so dogmatic in their own interpretation of the scriptures. May Yah bless you brother. Turn the other cheek. I wouldn't give him any more time even if he makes 100 more videos about you.
Your video was succinct and very direct to Sean and his audience, and it cleared up every confusion/unclear point present in your first video. Good job.
Thank you so much for doing this! The extra biblical book thing is so annoying... like Our Father isn't capable of preserving His Word and we are just left to decipher what is truth and what isn't! It's an idol.
A very ignorant comment on your part. There are several books that were removed from the bible from the very people that crucified Jesus. These men hated Jesus and His message which was a direct message from God. Do you really believe that Gods inspired word has not been tampered with? Ignorant.
Maybe he preserved his word in the caves of Qumran and allowed them to be hidden until the time of the end... If you were a "Christian" in the 1500's and and had a copy of the Guitenberg Bible, you'd be reading 76 books
David Wilber- I have enjoyed your teachings and have recently found Sean Griffin & his content. I realize JUBILEES and 1 Enoch are popular writings to test against the Canon once seeing that The Torah has NOT been abolished. I have not listened to Sean's 3 hr response, but I understood Sean's test was Genesis to Jubilee and to all of Torah.
HalleluYah !! Bravo brother David. Man, I appreciate you so much. Thank you for making this video. Hope to see you again soon! Yah bless you in Yeshua's name !!!
David I’m really struggling with this response. Sean threw respect on your name, work, and didn’t attack you personally once. Right out the gate you attack his character and motives. Your first set of claims is a strawman. Sean didn’t say that Jubilees is a greater revelation then the Torah. He said that Jubilees is dated earlier then the oldest fragment of Genesis, and actually claims to be written by Moses when Genesis-Duet does not. Both are true are they not? Oldest Genesis is P4, second century AD, and that’s in Greek, the Hebrew Genesis is 10th century AD. His comment was really about Genesis as well for the claim that Jubilees copied Genesis, virtually all scholars agree it was written by other others beyond just Moses. It’s divided by toledoths. Even the first two chapters show linguistic differences. The oldest copy of Jubilees is dated 3rd century BC, including in the Dead Sea scrolls. You said he denounces Christianity, Judaism, and biblical scholarship. I’m literally flabbergasted. Not all scholars agree, the Dead Sea Scrolls contained portions of Jubilees and is in Qumran by the Essenes who were Jews. There is clearly evidence to suggest individuals in the second temple period held Jubilees in high regard. You mentioned the fact one of the oldest Christian Bibles by the Ethiopians includes Jubilees in most their canons. That harmed your point because your argueing from a consensus that therefore doesn’t exist in all three areas. Even without Jubilees you are still at odds with most modern Christianity on several points about the Torah, which I think itself openly displays the nuance of problems with scholarly and authoritative claims. You deleted and updated your video because of mathematical mistakes you made about who was alive to know Abraham. You’re clearly not above question and learned from his critique of your position. Comparing him to Muslims and Mormons and Paul deniers is so wild to me. I think the only reasonable rebuttal made was in the fasting on sabbath point. Everything else was wild to me. In my opinion and a huge fan of your work in my life, this is an L.
My friend, throughout Sean’s three-hour video, he repeatedly belittled my intelligence and accused me of blindly following rabbinic Judaism. I’m not offended, and I've been treated much worse by other people who have dedicated three-hour videos to attacking me. But let’s be real. Sean did not show me an ounce of respect in that video. Regarding my comments about Sean’s motives, I did not claim to know his motives. I said that Sean’s blatant falsehoods about what the Torah says raise questions about whether he has actually read it, but they also raise the POSSIBILITY that he is intentionally misleading people. Those are the only two reasonable options I could think of. Another potential option is that he misspoke, but he literally repeated these false claims several times, which makes that option less reasonable. Maybe Sean should clarify what he meant when he made his demonstrably false statements that I highlighted. I did not say that Sean SAID Jubilees is a higher revelation than the Torah. I was very clear in the video that that was my logical inference based on what Sean did say. He repeatedly contrasted Jubilees, which he said is direct revelation from God through Moses, with the Torah, which he (falsely) said never claims to be God’s revelation through Moses and wasn’t written by Moses. Anyone listening to Sean’s statements would logically infer that he believes Jubilees is a higher revelation. In the clip I played, as you rightly acknowledged, Sean said Genesis-Deuteronomy does not claim to be written by Moses. I showed how the Torah itself proves Sean’s claim false in numerous passages. And Sean (falsely) said that nobody attributed the Torah to Moses until the 12th century AD. Again, I showed how the Torah and the rest of the Bible proves his claim false. Whether intentionally or not, Sean made surprisingly false statements about the Torah to elevate Jubilees. That’s just a fact. Actually, the paleographical date of the oldest copy of Jubilees (4Q216 cols. v-vii in the DSS) is 125-100 BC. So second century, not third century. Since the Qumran community held to the standard three-fold canon of 22 books, they did not consider Jubilees Scripture. See the citations in my original article for more on this. While the Ethiopian Church includes Jubilees in some of their canons, they do not regard it as one of the “Holy Books of the Old Testament,” so it certainly cannot be said that they consider it to be the same status as the Torah or Prophets. Sean and the people who follow him are the only ones who hold Jubilees in such high regard. Yes, I re-uploaded my original video after removing the point about Abraham because I was wrong. I explained this in a pinned comment on that video. I never claimed to be “above question.” I encourage people to study for themselves rather than taking my word for things. That is why Sean’s constant disparagement of biblical scholars, in an attempt to protect his special book against criticism, strikes me as cultish. We should be encouraging scholarship, not condemning it. I hate to hear that you didn’t like the video. I do hope you’ll take another look at the evidence and reconsider your position. But I love you either way.
Okay I hear you and I think it’s possible I miss judged, I really didn’t take his comments as personal attacks. Especially as he called you a brother and mentioned your other awesome content. This did come off to me as a serious attack, like Sean’s a false believer. I accept your points and will check out the citations, and I understand I could be wrong.
@@metaphysicswithmike I kind of took this video the same way. I have respect for both Sean and David...but again both of them have a lot of good doctrine, yet both of them are mistaken on some things...like we all are. We will be know as His disciples by the Love we show to others...and not just those we agree with, but especially the ones who disagree with us.
Hi David, First I would like to say thank you for your time devoted to this issue. It is important to the body of Messiah! I have been greatly edified by both you and Sean's work and really think there should be some kind of formal debate on this topic. The separate videos back and forth between you both have benefits, but also some short comings. There are areas that both of you have (in my opinion) misunderstood the intent of what the other said in key areas. I think a formal debate could clear up a lot of these issues and misunderstandings. At the very least, it would certainly be food for thought on both sides of the camp for those of us who are still testing the Book of Jubilees. One of the things I find most helpful in debates is that it helps ask questions I never would have thought about just reading/testing it out myself. Thank you!
Thanks for the comment, and I definitely hear you. I'm not against doing another structured, formal debate on this topic. But it would probably need to wait until next year. I'm swamped, and my wife would be really mad at me if I dropped another time-sucking commitment onto my schedule. (Whenever I do debates, I go all out and prepare for days.) I love debates and would love to do more when I have time. I'm just swamped.
Please see Gary Michuta’s explanation of Josephus’ supposed canon. Ruth being rolled up with Judges is an assumption that isn’t supported by his statements in Against Apion.
He's the Catholic apologist, right? I know there are some quibbles over the exact contents of Josephus' canon. I think Beckwith sorts it out well. Regardless, my point remains that Jubilees was clearly not part of Josephus' canon. I think everyone would agree with that.
Hi David and thank you so much for this very exaustive video as for your previous one THE TRUTH ABOUT THE BOOK OF JUBILEES. About this video in particular, you centered the main points of why we should be careful with people that have deep preconceptions about this book of Jubilees and about the book of Enoch as well. Do you know a yt channel called THE GOD CULTURE? That channel too consider Jubilees and Enoch as canon and nothing can be pointed out about possible inconsisitencies in the text because of their too much precious opinion of these books. As an aside note: I'm reading your book on Sabbath, very interesting.
On the topic of fasting on sabbath: Judith in the book of Judith was fasting all her days except for preparation days and sabbaths. That gives a point to jubilees.
Judith is probably my favorite apocryphal book. It's excellent. She cuts a dude's head off! But in any case, that doesn't prove anything except that Jews at that time adhered to the very common Jewish tradition of not fasting on the Sabbath.
In his three-hour rant, Sean repeatedly belittled my intelligence, falsely accused me of blindly following rabbinic Judaism in an attempt to poison the well, and openly laughed at how ridiculous he thought I was-all in response to my 15 minute video overview of Jubilees where I merely interacted with certain claims he made. I’m not offended, but let’s not pretend that Sean didn't attack me personally. In any case, you are welcome to not like that I was blunt, but I take it seriously when people denigrate Scripture.
I wasn't offended by his personal attacks. I'm used to that and have been treated much worse by other people who have dedicated three-hour videos to attacking me (Sean is not the only one). After years of abuse from people online who don't like me, nothing really hurts my feelings anymore lol. However, I was definitely offended by his false statements against God's perfect law, the Torah.
The first one to plead his cause seems right, Until his neighbor comes and examines him. - Pro 18:17 NKJV For those who have not seen the initial video in question, you can't come to your own conclusions (emphasis on your own conclusion) by just hearing one perspective. That perspective, if well-presented, will always seem right - regardless if its true or not. Hence the verse. I'd recommend watching the initial video if you havent yet, and then come to your own conclusions..
@@DavidWilberBlogthe heliocentric model contradicts biblical cosmology. Genesis states that the sun was created on the 4th day. What was the earth revolving around 3 days prior? It's also worth noting the multitude of scriptural verses that state that the earth is stationary.
Respectfully, I don't think you are handling Scripture correctly if you think it demands that we believe the sun revolves around a stationary earth. I don't care to debate this issue, but you can see my articles on the topic on my website if you want to know what I think. Blessings!
@@dezpierto2704 Heliocentric theory is tied to the Big Band and Evolution...Those three theories cannot be removed from one another. It is sad to see Christians that are either too proud or too scared to be ridiculed for believing God's description of his creation. They avoid the topic like the plague, because the Scriptures clearly support an enclosed, immovable earth
Bickering aside, I find it hard to accept a canon made by men who reject our Messiah. Test everything. Read the books for yourselves then make the decision for yourself. If you haven’t studied them fully, don’t comment on them. This is a general statement to all, not to you David, I know not the books you have studied. On the other hand, your jabs here and there were bearable, but the straight slander at the end was jaw dropping. I’ve met Sean and spent hours and hours talking with him. You are wrong. He is a good man, a man of YHWH that loves and cares for all, not just his followers. You need to check yourself man. How embarrassing.
Ironically, continuing to mischaracterize my statements about Sean as "slander" borders on slander. I am really tired of that false accusation. Do you all have talking points that you pass around or something? Respectfully, one does not have to like what I said about Sean or agree with it, but my statements are not the same thing as "slander." I am allowed to have my opinion, especially after thoroughly demonstrating why I believe what I do. I take it seriously when people undermine actual Scripture in an attempt to elevate other writings. That's what Mormons and Muslims do.
@@DavidWilberBlog No, I don't have talking points I've been fed and I would reject anyone who would request/require I do. Thanks for the childish insult though. Sorry your feelings are hurt. Clearly you don't know the definition of slander. I'll help, "Oral communication of false and malicious statements that damage the reputation of another." Insulting me by assuming I can't formulate my own thoughts and opinions shows your lack of character and respect. Sean loves his fellow man and has supported many families and widows through his platforms. Saying he does not care about his followers is quite literally slander. Your insults have no foundation. I'm glad this is public though so everyone can see who you are.
@@nickolico Settle down, my friend. Sheesh. The "talking points" thing was me making a joke since numerous Sean-followers have repeatedly made that very specific accusation against me after Sean accused me of "slander" in several posts he made complaining about my video. In any case, be offended all you want, but when people undermine Scripture by falsely claiming things like that the Torah does not claim to be God’s revelation through Moses, I'm going to call it out. And I'm going to warn people to say away from teachers you say those false things. I'm sure Sean has done some nice things. Joseph Smith gave to charity, but he still led many people down a destructive spiritual path through his false teachings.
Time Stamp 5:14 ... "...Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?..." I take it he does not believe in The Messiah either...
Sean keeps telling people that I'm not willing to debate him, but as I directly told him, I am not against doing a debate with him. I like debating people. However, it would need to be a structured, moderated debate-like the debate we had on 1 Enoch. It would also be a while before I could commit to doing it because I am swamped with other obligations right now. I've literally turned down four other offers to be interviewed / debate within the last couple of weeks. I just don't have time right now.
I don't follow Sean and this is the first video of yours I've watched. Excellent debate. However, your inclusion of Justin's photograph as a warning against questioning Paul's authority, is wrong. I knew about Justin's story but only listened to one of his videos with Adam prior, and that initially did serve as a case warning to me to not question obvious discrepancies in Paul's epistles. But we aren't to fear anything but God. And once you see, you cannot unsee. I wanted to share this excerpt from the Clementine Homilies (Peter talking): Book 2 chapter 38: “For the Scriptures have had joined to them many falsehoods against God on this account. The prophet Moses having by the order of God delivered the law, with the explanations, to certain chosen men, some seventy in number, in order that they also might instruct such of the people as chose, after a little the written law had added to it certain falsehoods contrary to the law of God, who made the heaven and the earth, and all things in them; the wicked one having dared to work this for some righteous purpose. And this took place in reason and judgment, that those might be convicted who should dare to listen to the things written against God, and those who, through love towards Him, should not only disbelieve the things spoken against Him, but should not even endure to hear them at all, even if they should happen to be true, judging it much safer to incur danger with respect to religious faith, than to live with an evil conscience on account of blasphemous words. Book 2 chapter 40: “Everything that is spoken or written against God is false.” Book 2 chapter 51: Then Peter said: “If, therefore, some of the Scriptures are true and some false, with good reason said our Master, ‘Be ye good money-changers,’ inasmuch as in the Scriptures there are some true sayings and some spurious. And to those who err by reason of the false scriptures He fitly showed the cause of their error, saying, ‘Ye do therefore err, not knowing the true things of the Scriptures; for this reason ye are ignorant also of the power of God.’” Book 3 chapter 8: Therefore the love of men towards God is sufficient for salvation. And this the wicked one knows; and while we are hastening to sow the love towards Him which makes immortal in the souls of those who from among the Gentiles are ready to believe in the one and only God, this wicked one, having sufficient armour against the ignorant for their destruction, hastens to sow the supposition of many gods, or at least of one greater, in order that men, conceiving and being persuaded of what is not wisdom, may die, as in the crime of adultery, and be cast out from His kingdom. Book 3 chapter 45: “But that He is not pleased with sacrifices, is shown by this, that those who lusted after flesh were slain as soon as they tasted it, and were consigned to a tomb, so that it was called the grave of lusts. He then who at the first was displeased with the slaughtering of animals, not wishing them to be slain, did not ordain sacrifices as desiring them; nor from the beginning did He require them. For neither are sacrifices accomplished without the slaughter of animals, nor can the first-fruits be presented. But how is it possible for Him to abide in darkness, and smoke, and storm (for this also is written), who created a pure heaven, and created the sun to give light to all, and assigned the invariable order of their revolutions to innumerable stars? Thus, O Simon, the handwriting of God-I mean the heaven-shows the counsels of Him who made it to be pure and stable. Book 3 chapter 50: “As to the mixture of truth with falsehood, I remember that on one occasion He [Jesus], finding fault with the Sadducees, said, ‘Wherefore ye do err, not knowing the true things of the Scriptures; and on this account ye are ignorant of the power of God.’ But if He cast up to them that they knew not the true things of the Scriptures, it is manifest that there are false things in them. And also, inasmuch as He said, ‘Be ye prudent money-changers,’ it is because there are genuine and spurious words. And whereas He said, ‘Wherefore do ye not perceive that which is reasonable in the Scriptures?’ He makes the understanding of him stronger who voluntarily judges soundly. Book 3 chapter 51: “And His sending to the scribes and teachers of the existing Scriptures, as to those who knew the true things of the law that then was, is well known. And also that He said, ‘I am not come to destroy the law,’ and yet that He appeared to be destroying it, is the part of one intimating that the things which He destroyed did not belong to the law. And His saying, ‘The heaven and the earth shall pass away, but one jot or one tittle shall not pass from the law,’ intimated that the things which pass away before the heaven and the earth do not belong to the law in reality. Book 3 chapter 52: “Since, then, while the heaven and the earth still stand, sacrifices have passed away, and kingdoms, and prophecies among those who are born of woman, and such like, as not being ordinances of God; hence therefore He says, ‘Every plant which the heavenly Father has not planted shall be rooted up.’ Wherefore He, being the true Prophet, said, ‘I am the gate of life; he who entereth through me entereth into life,’ there being no other teaching able to save. Wherefore also He cried, and said, ‘Come unto me, all who labour,’ that is, who are seeking the truth, and not finding it; and again, ‘My sheep hear my voice;’ and elsewhere, ‘Seek and find,’ since the truth does not lie on the surface.
I want to correct you David--you said that according to Sean Genesis through Deuteronomy does not claim to be God's revelation through Moses--what he said was Jubilees is the only book that claims to be a revelation of Moses. nowhere from Genesis through Deuteronomy does it say that these books are a revelation of Moses. Sean did NOT say that these books are NOT a revelation from God through Moses. You clearly twisted what Sean said--i hope this was a misunderstanding on your part and not an attempt to malign and lie about what you brother in Messiah said. I suggest you go back in your video here and carefully listen to what Sean said.
Just to be clear, according to your understanding, Sean said, “Jubilees is the only book that claims to be a revelation of Moses. Nowhere from Genesis through Deuteronomy does it say that these books are a revelation of Moses.” So, where exactly is my misrepresentation? Because it seems like you agree with my understanding of what Sean said and how I presented his own words. In the clip I played, as you rightly acknowledge, Sean did say that Genesis through Deuteronomy does not claim to come from Moses. He said, “...the opening of Jubilees directly tells you this came from Moses. It’s literally the only book that claims that out of…Genesis through Deuteronomy doesn’t claim that.” This assertion from Sean is outright false, as I demonstrated. The Torah claims to “come from Moses” countless times. All you have to do is read the Torah to see, over and over, the phrase “the Lord spoke to Moses, and Moses spoke to the people” and similar statements. It’s shocking that Sean would utter such a blatant falsehood, hence my surprised and perplexed reaction to what he said.
@@DavidWilberBlog the Torah did not come from Moses, but by revelation FROM God to Moses. throughout your video here you make so many false claims of Sean's intentions--what i see you doing here is continually maligning your brother. This is a shame--you twist Sean's words over and over and talk like you know his motivations.
@@shaironwakefield9943 Yikes, you are splitting hairs big time here. If Sean didn’t mean what he said, he should have been more clear. That’s not my fault. Jubilees claims to be God’s revelation through Moses (technically, God’s revelation dictated by an angel to Moses). So, when Sean says that Jubilees “claims to be a revelation of Moses,” he must be referring to the explicit claim of Jubilees, which is that it is God’s revelation through Moses, right? So, when Sean says that Genesis through Deuteronomy does NOT claim the same thing that Jubilees claims, again, he must be referring to that explicit claim of Jubilees. Thus, Sean claims that Genesis through Deuteronomy does not claim to be God’s revelation through Moses. According to Sean, Genesis through Deuteronomy "doesn't claim that"-the "that" being the claim of Jubilees. I have not misrepresented what Sean said. I played his own words. If he meant something different from what he said, he needs to clarify. Again, I did nothing wrong by accurately representing what he SAID.
Hi David - psycho analyzations are not needed for debates and typically leads to fallacies on the part on the one analyzing- for example genetic fallacies- I appreciate the data portions that you appeal to though - thank you for your videos and I watch your brother in law IP too - also the torah could not have been all written by Moses - generally main characters were named after them. Within the text though we know that the torah was not written by Moses since you know he cant write about his own death. Among many other updates clearly done throughout the torah. That being said I dont see why he wouldnt have been able to write some or most of it though.
Can you respond or have a debate/conversation with orthodox rabbi asher meza. I think you might have heard of him. He is a rationalist too and he speaks in good faith. He is friendly to messianics but rejects that JESUS is the messiah and has a lot of videos about it on his channel. He has some strong arguments. For example he claims the tanaach was a catholic invention and that jews never considered the prophets and other books on the same level as the Torah. And that the prophetical books were never meant to predict the future but only meant to bring the Jews back to Torah
I have not blocked him, but I did tell him not to contact me again until he apologizes-especially because he keeps falsely accusing me of "slandering" him and trying to strong-arm me into a public "discussion" with him by creating a public pressure campaign after I have repeatedly told him no. I do not give bullies what they want, and that apparently frustrates him very much. I have told him that I would be willing to do a moderated debate with him eventually, but that I'm too busy right now. That was the gist of our last conversation. If he told you something different, he is lying.
@@CanCanGibs Yes, I am way too busy to prepare for a debate with anyone right now (I have turned down four other offers to do interviews and debates within the last couple of weeks, not just Sean's). Also, it doesn't take that long to reply to a comment.
I agree with Sean on something but also disagree on others. @6:45 is a strawman against Seans claims, he claimed Moses might not have written Genesis but that a jew attributed the first 5 books. Sean didnt say anything about the other 4 books only genesis... pretty much the rest of the video was doing the same thing by not accurately representing Seans argument, just strawmans of Seans points.
Sean's words: "Do I care what [Maimonides] claims is the FIRST FIVE BOOKS that are attributed to Moses? They're [note the plural] attributed to Moses. Moses didn't personally pen them [again, note the plural]." Please do not falsely accuse me of misrepresenting Sean. IF Sean misspoke, that's on him, and he should be responsible and clarify his statements so that he doesn't lead people astray. But I don't think he misspoke. He made similar statements throughout his video. Also, even if he only meant to say Moses didn't write Genesis, that's still pretty bad.
I honestly don’t even know who seam griffin is. Never heard of him in my life. However, just hearing him speak I feel unsettled in my spirit. I feel like he’s being disingenuous.
I had a debate with him awhile back (ruclips.net/video/VE6UZ2RDA3E/видео.html). It was absolutely maddening 😵💫 He elevates gaslighting and red herrings to the level of a methodology. It's like trying to explain simple math to someone who repeatedly invokes astrology to prove why 2 + 2 ≠ 4 therefore don't eat bacon 🫠
Well, I don't think we should be eating bacon either if it's pork lol. For whatever it's worth, beef bacon tastes fine. But yeah, I've debated Sean before too. My debate with him, however, seemed to go okay because it was a structured, moderated debate. I don't like being constantly interrupted, and that seems to be Sean's style in informal debates from what I've seen.
@@DavidWilberBlog As a Gentile Christian, I take solace in Mark saying that Jesus "declared all foods clean" (Mk. 7:19--save, of course, those foods restricted under the Jerusalem Council, cf., Acts 15:29), not to mention the vision God gave to Peter (Acts 10:15; cf. 1 Tim. 4:1-4).
@@jdspainhour If you're open to hearing another perspective, here is my video on Mark 7 and another video where I read an excerpt from Dr. Jason Staples' paper on Acts 10. I promise you that my exegetical arguments are better than Sean's. Even if you disagree, I hope you'll at least see that not all of us Torah observers are weirdos like Sean, and some of us actually rely on sound scholarship and exegesis. Mark 7: ruclips.net/video/ugrL259KZSU/видео.html Acts 10: ruclips.net/video/qpIt_krGXLY/видео.html
@@jdspainhour Unclean foods are not food. Acts 10 was not about food as peter told us. It was a out manmade traditions. And mark 7 was about eating with unclean hands. When i read the new covenant, it states at the time of the new covenant, eceryone will know yahweh from least to greatest. Hasnt happened yet. Says he will remember my sin no more. Hasnt happened yet. Also the writer of hebrews says new covenant hasnt happened yet ( is ready to vanish). Hebrews was written 30-70 yrs after the cross. Even david doesnt agree with you on your understanding of mark 7 and acts 10 Sorry if i came across rude or a noob in live, i have grown alot. -Bryan
The Torah isn’t the only thing Sean seemingly rejects, it seems he rejects the prophets and the Revelation according to John. This one is a bit difficult to follow due to multiple interruptions but I think you may be interested in it. I’ll try to reply with the link if you’d like to check it out.
And there has not arisen a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, Deuteronomy 34:10 Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent. Exodus 33:11 And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the Lord make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?” Numbers 12:6-8 Clearly mr. Griffin doesn't know the Bible or have the Holy Spirit. I'm dumber than a sack of hammers so yeah
I might add that in a lot of things you can't trust the choose because number one in that context they have not accepted Messiah so they do not have the Holy Spirit which is the ultimate Giver of Truth. You can trust biblical Scholars to a certain extent but the scriptures of the final Authority. Scripture interpret scripture, in context. I do not believe that extra biblical writings are biblically inspired. Again I will say that Sean Griffin is a nobody trying to be somebody. You can go to Jewish Orthodox Believers about certain things but at the end of the day trusting their interpretation of scripture is probably the wrong thing to do and I've already stated why.
I can see your points and most of them make sense, my only problem is that you seem to cut off and edit a few of Seans points and thus we as the audience miss a lot of important details that would have made his points more clear. This is especially the case when he rebuttals you on the topic of lots descendants, gentiles, and fasting on the sabbath. But regardless, I still cant say I agree with you, most of these critiques of Jubilees seem fairly superficial and I don't see how any these are worthy of outright condemnation especially since there seems to be rational explanations for all of them.
Thanks for the comment. I highlighted only the most relevant portions of his comments so I could respond to his main points. He tends to ramble and go off into a hundred different directions, and I didn't want this video to be three hours long. Anyone can watch his original video if they want to. Jubilees' opposite message from the Torah on matters such as interactions with Gentiles, Lot's descendants (including the Messiah), and the Sabbath are important. The Bible makes a pretty big deal about how we shouldn't condemn people based on their parents' actions and that we should honor the Sabbath, and I don't think it's right to belittle these things only to try to justify Jubilees. The bottom line is that Jubilees' message on such matters contradicts the Torah's message, and none of Sean's explanations have resolved these issues. As I pointed out, he literally just fabricates contexts for these passages in order to make them fit. That disrespects not only Scripture but also the text of Jubilees that he is trying to defend.
@@DavidWilberBlog Well yah ok, again I think his explanation of the seed being an idiom or it being figurative made sense but we can agree to disagree. I do think though your final message being a little over the top and unnecessary.
@@abiolaadisa1770 His explanation regarding Lot's seed doesn't work within the context of the passage in Jubilees. Lot's descendants are already condemned before they even perform any sinful actions. And also, as I explained in my response, Deuteronomy explicitly commands Israel to leave Lot's descendants alone because God had given them a land inheritance. Again, these are completely opposite attitudes between Jubilees and Scripture no matter how you slice it. I was indeed harsh in calling out Sean but that is because I take it seriously when people carelessly belittle Scripture the way he did. When contrasting Jubilees with the Torah, Sean falsely asserted that the Torah does not claim to be God's revelation through Moses and that Moses did not write the Torah. People who intentionally denigrate Scripture in an effort to elevate other writings (like what Muslims do with their Quran) should be called out.
@@DavidWilberBlog Hmmm well Im not super well versed on this topic but im not aware of any books of the bible besides maybe deuteronomy and leviticus that are directly attributed to moses. And then again with the matter of books, if were being honest its a fairly superficial aspect of the faith as im sure there are plenty of Torah observing christians that have gone along fine who believed that Jubilees is inspired scripture, i mean the core tenants within jubilees check out for me and regarding it anything less than inspired scripture would be the equivalent of calling it fiction. I think giving these books the benefit of the doubt is important as a lot of them have had a very tough time getting to modern society and if there minute errors that u believe are wrong, i think its best to look at the heart of what is being addressed rather than pick apart how u think it contradicts scripture. There are too many factors that we have no idea about to make a definitive judgement on these books imo. Thats why i think its a little to much to condemn anyone who agrees with sean as being a cultist heretic.
@@abiolaadisa1770 Well, I would encourage you to watch the videos I made on the topic because I directly address each of these points. Despite Sean's false statements, the Bible and first-century historical sources repeatedly attribute the Torah to Moses. Again, despite Sean's false statements, the Torah repeatedly claims to be divine revelation given through Moses. As I demonstrated in this video, "observing Christians" have NOT believed that Jubilees inspired Scripture. Sean literally proves my point here. A big reason for this is that the "core tenants" of Jubilees are directly at odds with Scripture, as I have thoroughly demonstrated. These are not minor errors-especially considering that Sean upholds Jubilees at the expense of actual Scripture.
*Sean Griffin is a dangerous heretic.* If he were ever to try to spread the *false doctrines* he teaches online, despite correction, at a congregation which follows Scriptural discipline, then he would soon be *publicly denounced as a false teacher* and removed. As time-consuming as this video was, I appreciate you making it, David. People like Sean who elevate Jewish fables like Jubilees and “Enoch” need to be publicly refuted. It doesn’t matter how many times Sean throws around the word “brother” and comes across as nice to some.
Yeah, he definitely doesn't come across as "nice" in my experience lol. Throughout his three-hour rant, he repeatedly accused me of being an ignoramus who blindly and unquestionably follows Judaism and biblical scholars. He isn't as bad as other people who have made three hour videos about me though.
Yes, I have. Did you watch the entirely of this video you are commenting on? It seems your opinions aren't your own but rather a parody of fringe internet "teachers" with agendas.
@@DavidWilberBlog Your response video on Sean's response video, I have not watched entirely. I did, however, watch your response video on the Book of Jubilees where you regurgitate scholastic jargon/opinion. I believe you come-off as disingenuous when speaking about the Apocrypha: only siting what fits your confirmation bias. I don't believe Jubilees is a fringe topic. I think the Book of Jubilees is valid and divinely inspired for today's modern world (as well as the Book of I Enoch), but I guess that's my opinion which "to each his own." Agree to disagree. Cheers!
I personally believe you BOTH are setting a horribke example for unbelievers of two believers openly bickering w each other, slandering each other's character etc. In short,grow up and set a better example, boys. You're both making us ALL look bad.
I mean, this back and forth is basically a debate. As a side-note, years ago, Sean and I had a formal debate on the book of Enoch (it's online somewhere). During that debate, I pointed out that chapter 71 of 1 Enoch teaches a false Messiah. I still remember Sean's response. He admitted that the text in question indeed says what it says, but suggested that maybe there is an original Aramaic version of the passage that differs from the version of the text we actually have. However, we weren't debating a hypothetical, non-existent version of 1 Enoch, which supposedly says something different in chapter 71. We were debating the actual text of 1 Enoch that we have, which teaches a false Messiah. This naturally raises the question of whether we should consider the existing version of 1 Enoch Scripture, even though Sean admits that it teaches a false Messiah. I'm still waiting on an answer to that.
Sean is wrong about mostly everything he says about the Kingdom. Dr. Myles Munroe says its here now. Dr. Myles Munroe > Anyone else about the Kingdom of God.
I am not familiar with Munroe's or Sean's teachings on this issue. But the kingdom is definitely already here now...and also it is not here yet. Through the Messiah, there is overlap between the present age and the age to come. The age to come has, in a sense, invaded the present age. But we still exist in the present age, awaiting the arrival of the kingdom in fullness. A holistic and proper approach to eschatology recognizes this tension.
@@DavidWilberBlog Don't trust what you know, Dr. Mylea Munroe will make it CLEAR to you with scripture in videos like: "Rediscovering the Kingdom" "The Original Plan of God" And practically any other video you watch of him. God blessed us with this man, please forget what you know for just a second, and in humility and hunger for justice and righteousness, continue now your path onto Dr. Myles Munroe. The only instruction on the Kingdom I trust.
@@DavidWilberBlog Shalom and blessings David. Please stay well clear of any teachings by Munroe. He was a word of faith false teacher. One of his quotes whilst speaking to another heretic, Benny Hinn, goes as follows "God could do nothing on Earth, nothing has God ever done on Earth, without a human giving him access. So he’s always looking for a human to give him power permission. In other words, God has the power, but you have the permission. God has the authority and the power, you’ve got the license. So even though God could do anything, he can only do what you permit him to do" Unfortunately, he and his wife died in a plane crash in 2014. I hope he repented before his last breath. Every blessing Brother. David (UK)
i lean towards a flat earth but these comments really get me 😂😂 as if everyone who doesnt lean towards a flat earth should be thrown in the valley of distrust and hate 😂 Davids opinions are absolutely astounding, well presented, well articulated, well sourced and on topics ge has researched thoroughly. lets leave the division on earths shape out of it ❤️ it really becomes a weapon of division for the enemy... im.speaking as someone who left comments similar when i forst dived into the exciting world of flat earth all those years ago..
False teacher alert. Do not be fooled by this mans rhetoric. Sean Griffin is the most researched man I’ve ever come across. I’d assume you’re still living on 🌍 and maintaining the lie.
Wow...I'm glade we have like faith and are in agreement...poor Sean got a whipping. Lol that's why study is so important and scripture speaks of novices...
Think you went a to far by calling Sean a false prophet David and a cult not a good look for you. You may disagree on this book but I know he would have not said those types of things about you. Get out of the judgment seat! you have lost a follower.
I was indeed harsh. But that's because I consider Sean's disparagement of Scripture to be very serious. When contrasting Jubilees with the Torah, he stated that the Torah does not claim to be God's revelation through Moses, that Moses did not write it, and that nobody attributed the Torah to Moses until the 12th century AD. Not even the most liberal of liberal secular scholars make such crazy claims. Not to mention the fact that these claims were demonstrably false, as I demonstrated. I was not harsh with Sean for merely believing that Jubilees is inspired but for his denigration of the Torah in his effort to elevate other writings. I hope that helps explain my harsh tone. I'd also like to say, in Sean's video, he repeatedly belittled my intelligence and accused me of blindly following rabbinic Judaism and of not reading Jubilees. I'm not offended, but let's not pretend that Sean was charitable and not judgmental in his response toward me. All I did was play his own words and highlight the seriousness of his errors.
David I’ve listened to both you and Sean for a couple of years now and Sean doesn’t handle everything perfectly but neither do you or I. Do you think Yeshua would have handled it that way??? Just realized that you and Sean love Yeshua our messiah even if you disagree. Pray about it brother!
@@shaunhood4796 You should read Yeshua's words Matthew 23 to the pharisees, Paul's words in Titus 1 regarding Cretians, Paul called out by name false teachers in his letters, the whole book of Jude, 2 Peter 2, and Yeshua's words in Revelation 2 regarding the nicolaitans and jezebel. Yes, Yeshua would have responded in the same way as David. Sean is not above correction and rebuking and needs to repent for his misinformation, false teaching, and his prideful and arrogant behavior. I have never heard Sean admit he was wrong in his teaching or repent when corrected and he often contradicts himself and is leading many astray. He teaches polytheism and he also teaches Yeshua is doing sacrifices right now in heaven as high priest to the Father for our sins. And that His blood wasn't the full and final atonement for His people. The Father is made of water and spirit. And Yeshua's resurrected body was not flesh, He was water and Spirit and that's how He walked through the wall. Really wacked out teachings that are contrary to the Word of God.
Enoch 71:14-17 retranslation says a lot about Enoch. Enoch is the Son of Man figure really kills the book. The parables of Enoch are probably written post Jesus.
May the Lord Jesus bless you for having the strength to watching THREE WHOLE HOURS of this guy talking about stuff he knows nothing about and lying. I bet you envied Job’s suffering as you sat through that 😂
I only heard of you David after badmouthing Sean. Imo the 66 books are not complete. You believe King James, a FreeMason didn't take any books out when translating into English, yet other scholars who translated other languages and included other books were wrong? You're so convinced, you will bash Sean online, tell him to respond to your video, then gaslight him for doing so? Why the division dude.......
David is wrong on many topics like the 3 equal God heresy called the trinity. or Yahweh's flat earth, or there're only 66 inspired books for Scripture. Etc. None of us have it all perfect.
You're going to have to turn a few of these rebuttals into a new series of "Messianic Thug Life" clips brother. 👏👏👏
Lol! Thanks, my friend.
Well Said Fisher-man
Sean didn't say Moses definitely wrote Jubilees. He said Jubilees makes the declaration that Moses wrote it while the Torah didn't actually make that claim. 5:54
In order to be intellectually honest and consistent with the text of Jubilees, Sean would have to believe as much.
Hey! While you are here, if you are interested in what SCRIPTURE says about a very important topic-the Sabbath-you might like my book. It's called "Remember the Sabbath: What the New Testament Says About Sabbath Observance for Christians." Check it out here: sabbathbook.com/
I am adding that to my list of books to get. At the rate I'm going, I'm going to need my own library.
@@danielnelson9411 Whoops! Thanks for catching that. Fixed.
Mr. Wilber’s book “remember the sabbath” is an excellent book! It covers much more than just the Sabbath and is a great resource for personal growth and sharing with friends and family that might be interested in wether or not Christians should keep the sabbath. Can’t recommend it enough. It is very well written.
This is a much needed teaching. Thank you so much for risking the controversy in order to speak forth truth. Far too many RUclips ministries these days spend WAY TOO MUCH time and energy on studying and teaching extra Biblical books. It's sad to see the huge followings that chase after these kind of deceptive ideas. May the Father continue to bless you and guide you into more and more truth as the end approaches. There's still plenty of work for all of us to do. :)
Very ironic! I am literally having conversations on the FB page about this very topic. Someone asked if it's wrong to have relations with your spouse on Sabbath. They keep quoting jubilees and calling the Torah rabbinic tradition. I stumbled upon your article and it outlined the same concerns I had. I attached it in my response to someone. We will see what happens.....
The slander in this video is truly unbelievable. 😔
Slander? I played your own words, Sean. You explicitly said that the Torah does not claim to be God's revelation through Moses, despite numerous passages that clearly make this claim. You said that the Torah was not attributed to Moses until Maimonides in the 12th century AD, again, despite numerous passages that attribute the Torah to Moses. Did you make those statements or not?
Sean, it is very typical of you to accuse people of slander, being unloving, etc. when your heretical teachings are challenged. Several of us who have had similar discussions with you aren’t falling for it, and hopefully one day your audience won’t either. You should publicly repent, and consider deleting your organization’s platforms which you use to make money off false doctrine.
Every single time anyone accurately confronts Sean on his teaching of false doctrines he tries to frame it as slander.
It's not slander if it's the truthful warning against the teachings of an unrepentant false teacher
@@XavierPutnamsean says Jesus was just some dude hanging on a cross. He's not a Christian
Hi David,
You might have seen my earlier comment defending Sean however it has been deleted as you made an excellent rebuttal. Today had some suspicions and this video made them acutely more pressing and looking very much forward to hear Sean's response.
Thanks for the good work and would like very much if you could do more of the point by point rebuttals. So far you are definitely correct and hope that "IF" this continues to its full culmination to exposing that Sean's teaching are false that he will humble himself and repent.
Sean has a large following and even myself was a regular listener so know this should be ironed out to the end.
I would love to see this "video debate" continue, if only to help open people's eyes. I used to follow Sean as an online torah teacher. His ideas forced me to go back into scripture and study certain topics. I found I disagreed often, but it was still good study time. I unsubscribed to everything he does roughly a year ago. I got the feeling back then that he puts Jubilees as the foundation for his faith, as the most important book. This will result in everything being re-interpreted to fit Jubilees. After my own study on jubilees, I believe it to be a completely false book with many many issues (most of which David brought up in his videos).
There are still a few small tidbits that were not brought up... like Jubilees assigning the sin primarily to Lot, so that all his seed are wiped out, yet the NT (2nd peter 2) calls Lot righteous. The way I read the OT has the daughters committing the sin, while Lot was a victim. This may seem like small distinctions, but I feel they are important. Even the statement that no one has done anything like that since Adam to Lot... is quite a stretch. I don't believe it. Especially in the times of Noah!
Jubilees also changes the character of Isaac in his interactions with the philistines. In the canon, Isaac has a peaceful meal and departs. Isaac's servants dig a well and find water. However, in Jubilees, Isaac's servants dig a dry well and Isaac curses the philistines to death (so that none are saved on judgment day).
Anyway, I can't follow a teacher that has this book as his foundation; this will possibly taint all of his other teachings. He is seeing and interpreting everything through the lens of Jubilees.
This is the next chapter of a fallen Kingdom on Earth, grown men with head knowledge rallying up their herd and creating public division instead of reaching out to each other and debating this in private. Maybe the views have taken priority over the “Church”
Do you hate the Church?
People, when supposed "scholars" try to shut down an inspired book, better look into it for yourself. Just saying.
Yes, I encourage everyone to personally look into things for themselves rather than just taking people’s word. But people who try to discredit scholars in order to protect their special book from criticism immediately make me suspicious. That’s the same thing Mormons do when people question the Book of Mormon. And ironically, it’s a way of shutting down honest inquiry. When fringe Internet teachers try to shut down someone questioning their special book, better look into it for yourself. Just saying.
Good stuff brother i have recently had a few people i know make reference to seans channel. I watched a video they sent to me and within 10 minutes i was already heavily disturbed. His consistently reference to the book of jubilees being one of the issues. Glad your standing on truth agianst him. Keep it up!
Your rationalist approach to topics like this is refreshing. Sadly i have seen most people in the hebrewroots/pronomion movment reject reason and blindly accept conspiracies like the flat earth and think they possess some secret knowlege. This makes pronomions look crazy to other Christians . I hope it will change. Even i was drawn to books like enoch but i watched your videos and realised the truth. Your channel has been one of these channels who dont have much subscribers but whose information and message has impacted me greatly. I just kept my first Sabbath last week.
Flat earth is scientifically sound and exceptionally Biblical once you put it to the test. But I agree with you on certain points. One thing I noticed when flat earth started blowing up is that many people, specifically mostly atheists, were coming to Christ & became Christian. This was a huge win for the side of creationists. However, that obviously threatened the enemy so much that I'm convinced he had to do some damage control. What happened is I believe satan infiltrated the flat earth movement and poured out confusion & false doctrine into the mix of the truth of flat earth to stray these freshly new converts. With some he duped them into straight up denying the deity of Christ & the Trinity, others were duped into going new age, & some were duped into believing the Israelites were black and Jesus only came to save black people. I hate to admit that we have an enemy who is not that stupid. But rest assured that the flat earth is not nonsense & has brought many into saving faith, the problem is where there's a win on our side, the enemy will try to combat it his way. His globe/evolution deception started crumbling, it doesn't surprise me he had to find other means of deceiving new converts.
Thank you for this David. I agree with your analysis.
30:54 oh wow, I it's a stretch to say he is trying to build his own kingdom and that's why he's getting this issue wrong. It's dangerous to imply you know his mind and heart beyond this issue. Once again, I do not watch his channel. I disagree with him on many many things but I also disagree with you on a few things. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean you're being purposefully misinforming for your own benefit. Granted, my disagreement with you is on much smaller issues. I agree that some of these guys start on this path of discovering truths after being misled for so long then they continue to believe everything is a lie and they go overboard but.to say you know he's being deceptive with intention of destroying other people's spiritual welfare. He really believes that Jubilees is scriptural or do you think he knows it's wrong and is purposefully disregarding the truth with intent on destroying others lives? That's a pretty bold claim. I think you made a video and used his name and it made him angry so he replied with anger and used your name. Now I think you're saying some things you shouldn't say because of anger.
Sean said that the Torah does not claim to be God's revelation through Moses, despite numerous passages that clearly make this claim. He said that the Torah was not attributed to Moses until Maimonides in the 12th century AD, again, despite numerous passages that attribute the Torah to Moses. As I said in my video, Sean's blatant falsehoods concerning the Torah raise questions about whether he has actually read it. The other option is that he is intentionally misleading people. Those are the only two options I could think of. I guess another potential option is that he misspoke, but he literally repeated these false claims several times.
Fantastic follow up video, David.
Thanks!
Awesome! I don't know if I could have watched 3 hours of him.
I hear ya. His video was literally all about me, and even I struggled to get through it. I’m just not into listening to someone ramble on and on for hours. Some people like it though.
@@DavidWilberBlog did it give you flashbacks to the "Pauls not scripture because my fish died" videos?
Good job David. I’m going to send this to several people I know.
There's a reason why I removed the Kingdom in Context page from my RUclips subscriptions. There's a lot wrong over there. Thanks, David!
Excellent!!! I am sharing this with others. :)
Thank you!
So many of the points you made in this video I also noticed when I watched Sean's video.
First and foremost you are absolutely correct that Sean, and many others, begin their "critique" of Jubilees with the assumption it should be part of our cannon. Therefore they fall into the the trap of confirmation bias, where everything, no matter how manipulated or twisted confirms their belief. This is dangerous when considering that amount of influence Sean has on social media.
Second, Sean constantly contradicts himself and the Bible in his rebuttal. It is unfortunate, but it does expose the issues with his arguments, and discredits his ability to actually study and teach Scripture while resisting his own biases. We certainly all have biases, but good teachers are able to resist those, challenge them according to truth, and change what needs to be changed. Sean does not demonstrate this ability, not in this video nor in his debates.
Finally, I agree with David's conclusion for those who follow Sean, do not get swept up into this stuff. Sean sounds like he knows what he's talking about, but he regularly demonstrates in his videos that he typically only presents what agrees with his pre-established conclusions and beliefs.
Thanks again David for your thoughtful approach.
Thank you. Very well put.
I follow you and kic
Also they use Jubilees chapter 6 for the foundation of the calendar they keep. Also Enoch. And Enoch tells them how many days are in 8 years time. They use these books for the foundation for the calendar they keep. Then when they figure out nature doesn't line up with foundation build on these two books guess what they do? Rather then throw out the calendar they rip the foundation they build out by making excuses as to why it is ok to not have exactly 52 like Jubilees chapter 6 tells them and also Enoch. Therefore the foundation that was build which is exactly 364 days in a year from both books is violated. They do this Rather than throwing out the information as not being correct. I do believe there is a bad spirit over these counting calendars!
People who believe firmly in 66 books ONLY, also fall into a trap of confirmation bias...don't you think.
If we just assume we know less than 1% about anything...we become a lot more humble and teachable.
Awesome job David! Thank you!
You blew Kingdom in Context out of the water. Thank you so much for how you have edified believers and given us confidence in the teachings of Scripture.
Shalom and blessings David. I hope you are well Brother. Excellent and edifying rebuttal, and once I again I commend you for your use of scholarly resources. Every blessing to you and yours Brother. David (UK)
I appreciate that encouragement!
Scholarly Should not mean anything... For all man is biased in their education.. Test and discern everything Does not mean Looking into someone else's heart. But yes David did a good job!
Great reply!
Thanks!
Birds of a feather...
What are your thoughts on 2 Maccabees being included in Catholic and Orthodox bibles and not in Protestant and Rabbinical Judaism?
I enjoy these videos.
I notice that people who push books like Enoch and Jubilees more often than not have some of the worst doctrine, and that these books become borderline idols.
We all need to agree to disagree on some topics and be filled with humility and love for our brothers & sisters in Messiah.
Let's just be patient in Yeshua Will straighten this all out one day?😊
This is the kind of naive idealism that can not be allowed to continue.
@@Th3BigBoy Mmmm...ok
Very well said! Can’t wait to share this!
Thanks for the encouragement and for sharing!
Not that this is neither here nor there, but remember Liiighthouse? I was so looking forward to it. I just couldn't understand the lack of communication and transparency. Just no response. It was very odd.
I just made a video about Sean this week and it premieres Tonight on Sabbath @ 730, Someone just sent me this video and wow and the timing. I noticed we were friends on FB for years. Shalom My friend.
When are you going to do a teaching on the trinity? Also 119 ministries has also not done a teaching on this. It is supposedly a salvation issue, yet I see that this topic has been avoided
Thanks for reaching out. I believe the trinity is a biblical doctrine and have not avoided it at all. I personally have published several articles and videos on related topics, particularly defending the Messiah's deity. For example, see my recent video on Philippians 2:5-11. These are all available for free on my channel and website. Also, a couple of years ago, my publishing company, Pronomian Publishing, put out a book by Joshua Ensley titled "A Pocket Guide to the Doctrine of the Trinity." I also did an interview with Ensley where we discussed the topic in depth, which is also available on RUclips. I have been very clear about my position. I don't think people who reject the trinity aren't saved, but it is a biblical doctrine. Hope that helps!
@@DavidWilberBlog Thank you for responding. I am a friend and fan of Sean, so I am biased towards him, but I do respect and enjoy much of your content, and you were actually the first person to start to open my eyes to the truth of the Sabbath months ago, long before I ever knew about Kingdom in Context. So I am forever grateful for that, as you in part led me to torah. The thing is, when I do a search on your channel with the keyword "trinity" I do not see any video results with the word "trinity" in the title. So if you have mentioned it in passing in other videos, that's understandable, but I think you can see why it would appear as if you haven't done a teaching on it, if you haven't made a dedicated video about the topic with the word in the title, at least not on RUclips.
I would really appreciate a teaching on the trinity whislt touching on why it is not a salvation issue. I personally don't believe that it is, as I believe all who confess christ as the messiah come in the flesh and operate in love to others are of God, as 1 John makes clear. But this is a topic that is causing a lot of strife and reviling from the trinitarian community to the non-trinitarian communities, even amongst torah followers, and I think it is of much more importance than whether Jubilees is inspired. Here's why:
If you believe Jubiliees is inspired and so you do something like fast on the Sabbath, that has no real negative consequences even if it isn't scripture. I'm not saying it isn't important to get this right in regards to Jubilees, however many trinitarians go around condemning people to Hell and reviling others based on the belief that the trinity is a salvation issue. And wrongfully condemning someone to Hell is an ACTUAL salvation issue last time I checked. [Luk 6:37 CSB] 37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Lastly, it feels as if you were rather ungracious to Sean in this video, you are two very intelligent dedicated men of God. You accused him of either not reading the Torah or willfully misleading others, yet I have never heard you speak with such a condemning tone when talking about Protestant preachers who straight up say the law is done away with, such as John Macarther. I don't think you would ever accuse John of not having read the OT or to be willfully misleading others. Sean is telling people to keep the commandments of God and be loving to others. Is Sean really worse than the majority of these other teachers such as a John Macarthuer who tell people to eat swine, break the sabbath and condemn others for keeping the law or not believing in the trinity, solely because he believes that Enoch and Jubilees are inspired?
If you never address the topic I suggested, I pray you at least reflect on my last point. If you read this far, I appreciate it, God bless.
@@youngdonreborn Thank you for the comment, my friend. I'm deeply encouraged to hear that the Lord used me in your journey of discovering the Sabbath and Torah. I will take your suggestion into consideration. I have been working on a book defending the Messiah's deity, but it is slow-going.
In any case, regarding Sean, I was indeed harsh. But that's because I considered his comments to be very serious. When contrasting Jubilees with the Torah, he stated that the Torah does not claim to be God's revelation through Moses, that Moses did not write it, and that nobody attributed the Torah to Moses until the 12th century AD. These comments were shocking and demonstrably false, as I demonstrated. I honestly don't know how to explain these blatant falsehoods other than the options I gave: either he hasn't read the Torah or he is intentionally misleading people to bolster Jubilees. It's possible that he misspoke, but since he repeated these false claims multiple times in his video, that possibility seems less reasonable. Anyway, I hope he publicly recants these false statements. I was not harsh with Sean merely for believing Jubilees is inspired but for denigrating the Torah. I hope that helps explain my harsh tone. Blessings!
@@DavidWilberBlog Okay brother, my final point is that I believe you are misrepresenting Sean's position on the first 5 books of the Bible. Sean very seldomly uses these extra biblical sources such as Jubiliees or Encoch to support theology and when he does it is always for the sake of giving additional support to the canocial scriptures (unless discussing topics that are simply not addressed in the canon in detail such as the history of the Nephalim or the workings of the heavenly bodies).
The point that I think Sean is making is that the Book of Jubilees directly claims that it's author is Moses. However, you will not find a single verse in the bood of "Exodus" for instance that claims it was penned by Moses. Sean ofcourse regards these books as scriptures, is uncompromising about what they teach and preaches from them quite often. To say he holds Jubilees to a higher standard than Genesis or Leviticus, is just not true brother. He is simply stating that the collection of writings that is now labelled as "Genesis", nowhere in Genesis, does it claim to be written by Moses. Nor in the other 4 books of the Torah does it claim that it was written by Moses.
He doesn't dispute that the things in these book are true, just that we have accepted that these books were penned exclusively by Moses based on the opinions of men who came long after these books were written. The Law of Moses refers specifically to the commandments given on Mount Sinai, not the entirety of Gen-Deuteronomy. Also, we know Moses didn't write Deuteronomy by himself as it even documents his death, it is merely a educated guess that Joshua must have written the last portion of it, but many believe it was Ezra who completed Deuteronomy. But I believe your bias agaisnt Sean is causing you to hear something other than what he is claiming.
Ultimately I truly do love you brother, and I still watch your videos, this is just good ol' fashion YT beef, going back to y'all debating about Enoch, it is what it is. Sean is a great teacher, and so are you, y'all disagree on these writings, but ulitmately, y'all agree on the important stuff, that is, how we will take part in the ressurection. Keeping the commandments, and loving others.
Wow, that was very direct. Would you agree with the idea that we have deuterocanonical books, which the church reads for instruction or general understanding, but they are not authoritative in establishing doctrine?
My red flag with Sean was when he claimed to have the gift of "discernment" and he can "see" things that happened to people in the past.
I believe that the apocrypha (Sirach, 1-2 Maccabees, Tobit, etc.) and pseudepigrapha (Enoch, Jubilees, etc.) are valuable sources of information to glean insights about the various beliefs and practices of Jews during the Second Temple era. These writings are relevant to New Testament background studies. We should not get our theology from these writings.
Sean's claim that he has superpowers is unsurprising. Very common among cult leaders. I knew a religious leader who went to prison and claimed to be able to cause his "spirit" to exit his body, fly through the prison walls, and listen to people's conversations hundreds of miles away.
Interested to know which video he said this in if you can remember.
I would like to have that video info as well. I have never heard that claim from sean and is concerning so if we are going to make these claims please provide the info where we can hear this claim.
@@gpd215 It was in an interview with Doug on Pinecreek back in 2020. Reminded me of Mark Driscoll's claims in 2008 of "seeing" things while counseling people.
The 42 minute mark.
ruclips.net/user/liveb0kYLnCpKKM?feature=share
@@DavidWilberBlog In an Interview Sean had on the Pinecreek RUclips channel, Sean admits to having & using superpowers in his ministry. He calls his superpowers: "words of knowledge". Sean claims God gives him the ability to see into certain select events of people's lives in order so that he can help them 🤔
Thank you for this video. I have been following Sean for a little over a year and he really had me hooked at first. However, I have recently been getting a very strong self-promotion vibe from him. His debates with other Christians have led me to further question his intentions. I don't know him personally and make no judgement about him, but the further along I go the more I find myself avoiding his content. Honestly, I question everyone's content at this point. Everyone thinks they have it all figured out yet so many people become so dogmatic in their own interpretation of the scriptures. May Yah bless you brother. Turn the other cheek. I wouldn't give him any more time even if he makes 100 more videos about you.
A fellow canarian? A follower of Yah? This is so cool. God bless you brother!
Steve Moutria of Torah Family is my Favorite....because of his humility and desire to not allow needless things to divide believers.
I'm hearing you... 🤔
Your video was succinct and very direct to Sean and his audience, and it cleared up every confusion/unclear point present in your first video. Good job.
Griffin is Wrong about many things
Thank you so much for doing this! The extra biblical book thing is so annoying... like Our Father isn't capable of preserving His Word and we are just left to decipher what is truth and what isn't! It's an idol.
A very ignorant comment on your part. There are several books that were removed from the bible from the very people that crucified Jesus. These men hated Jesus and His message which was a direct message from God. Do you really believe that Gods inspired word has not been tampered with? Ignorant.
Maybe he preserved his word in the caves of Qumran and allowed them to be hidden until the time of the end...
If you were a "Christian" in the 1500's and and had a copy of the Guitenberg Bible, you'd be reading 76 books
Well spoken David and I greatly appreciate it! 👍🏾
I appreciate the kind words. Blessings!
Excellent refutation.
The level of deception in his staments is appaling... thank you for taking time to adress his claims; they are ridiculous, as they are dangerous
David Wilber- I have enjoyed your teachings and have recently found Sean Griffin & his content. I realize JUBILEES and 1 Enoch are popular writings to test against the Canon once seeing that The Torah has NOT been abolished. I have not listened to Sean's 3 hr response, but I understood Sean's test was Genesis to Jubilee and to all of Torah.
These comments seem to indicate that anything less than smiling from ear to ear effeminately while you discuss this topic is somehow harsh.
HalleluYah !! Bravo brother David. Man, I appreciate you so much. Thank you for making this video. Hope to see you again soon! Yah bless you in Yeshua's name !!!
David I’m really struggling with this response. Sean threw respect on your name, work, and didn’t attack you personally once. Right out the gate you attack his character and motives.
Your first set of claims is a strawman. Sean didn’t say that Jubilees is a greater revelation then the Torah. He said that Jubilees is dated earlier then the oldest fragment of Genesis, and actually claims to be written by Moses when Genesis-Duet does not. Both are true are they not? Oldest Genesis is P4, second century AD, and that’s in Greek, the Hebrew Genesis is 10th century AD.
His comment was really about Genesis as well for the claim that Jubilees copied Genesis, virtually all scholars agree it was written by other others beyond just Moses. It’s divided by toledoths. Even the first two chapters show linguistic differences.
The oldest copy of Jubilees is dated 3rd century BC, including in the Dead Sea scrolls.
You said he denounces Christianity, Judaism, and biblical scholarship. I’m literally flabbergasted. Not all scholars agree, the Dead Sea Scrolls contained portions of Jubilees and is in Qumran by the Essenes who were Jews. There is clearly evidence to suggest individuals in the second temple period held Jubilees in high regard. You mentioned the fact one of the oldest Christian Bibles by the Ethiopians includes Jubilees in most their canons. That harmed your point because your argueing from a consensus that therefore doesn’t exist in all three areas.
Even without Jubilees you are still at odds with most modern Christianity on several points about the Torah, which I think itself openly displays the nuance of problems with scholarly and authoritative claims.
You deleted and updated your video because of mathematical mistakes you made about who was alive to know Abraham. You’re clearly not above question and learned from his critique of your position. Comparing him to Muslims and Mormons and Paul deniers is so wild to me.
I think the only reasonable rebuttal made was in the fasting on sabbath point. Everything else was wild to me. In my opinion and a huge fan of your work in my life, this is an L.
My friend, throughout Sean’s three-hour video, he repeatedly belittled my intelligence and accused me of blindly following rabbinic Judaism. I’m not offended, and I've been treated much worse by other people who have dedicated three-hour videos to attacking me. But let’s be real. Sean did not show me an ounce of respect in that video. Regarding my comments about Sean’s motives, I did not claim to know his motives. I said that Sean’s blatant falsehoods about what the Torah says raise questions about whether he has actually read it, but they also raise the POSSIBILITY that he is intentionally misleading people. Those are the only two reasonable options I could think of. Another potential option is that he misspoke, but he literally repeated these false claims several times, which makes that option less reasonable. Maybe Sean should clarify what he meant when he made his demonstrably false statements that I highlighted.
I did not say that Sean SAID Jubilees is a higher revelation than the Torah. I was very clear in the video that that was my logical inference based on what Sean did say. He repeatedly contrasted Jubilees, which he said is direct revelation from God through Moses, with the Torah, which he (falsely) said never claims to be God’s revelation through Moses and wasn’t written by Moses. Anyone listening to Sean’s statements would logically infer that he believes Jubilees is a higher revelation. In the clip I played, as you rightly acknowledged, Sean said Genesis-Deuteronomy does not claim to be written by Moses. I showed how the Torah itself proves Sean’s claim false in numerous passages. And Sean (falsely) said that nobody attributed the Torah to Moses until the 12th century AD. Again, I showed how the Torah and the rest of the Bible proves his claim false. Whether intentionally or not, Sean made surprisingly false statements about the Torah to elevate Jubilees. That’s just a fact.
Actually, the paleographical date of the oldest copy of Jubilees (4Q216 cols. v-vii in the DSS) is 125-100 BC. So second century, not third century.
Since the Qumran community held to the standard three-fold canon of 22 books, they did not consider Jubilees Scripture. See the citations in my original article for more on this. While the Ethiopian Church includes Jubilees in some of their canons, they do not regard it as one of the “Holy Books of the Old Testament,” so it certainly cannot be said that they consider it to be the same status as the Torah or Prophets. Sean and the people who follow him are the only ones who hold Jubilees in such high regard.
Yes, I re-uploaded my original video after removing the point about Abraham because I was wrong. I explained this in a pinned comment on that video. I never claimed to be “above question.” I encourage people to study for themselves rather than taking my word for things. That is why Sean’s constant disparagement of biblical scholars, in an attempt to protect his special book against criticism, strikes me as cultish. We should be encouraging scholarship, not condemning it.
I hate to hear that you didn’t like the video. I do hope you’ll take another look at the evidence and reconsider your position. But I love you either way.
Okay I hear you and I think it’s possible I miss judged, I really didn’t take his comments as personal attacks. Especially as he called you a brother and mentioned your other awesome content. This did come off to me as a serious attack, like Sean’s a false believer. I accept your points and will check out the citations, and I understand I could be wrong.
@@metaphysicswithmike I kind of took this video the same way. I have respect for both Sean and David...but again both of them have a lot of good doctrine, yet both of them are mistaken on some things...like we all are.
We will be know as His disciples by the Love we show to others...and not just those we agree with, but especially the ones who disagree with us.
Hi David, First I would like to say thank you for your time devoted to this issue. It is important to the body of Messiah! I have been greatly edified by both you and Sean's work and really think there should be some kind of formal debate on this topic. The separate videos back and forth between you both have benefits, but also some short comings. There are areas that both of you have (in my opinion) misunderstood the intent of what the other said in key areas. I think a formal debate could clear up a lot of these issues and misunderstandings. At the very least, it would certainly be food for thought on both sides of the camp for those of us who are still testing the Book of Jubilees. One of the things I find most helpful in debates is that it helps ask questions I never would have thought about just reading/testing it out myself. Thank you!
Thanks for the comment, and I definitely hear you. I'm not against doing another structured, formal debate on this topic. But it would probably need to wait until next year. I'm swamped, and my wife would be really mad at me if I dropped another time-sucking commitment onto my schedule. (Whenever I do debates, I go all out and prepare for days.) I love debates and would love to do more when I have time. I'm just swamped.
Please see Gary Michuta’s explanation of Josephus’ supposed canon. Ruth being rolled up with Judges is an assumption that isn’t supported by his statements in Against Apion.
He's the Catholic apologist, right? I know there are some quibbles over the exact contents of Josephus' canon. I think Beckwith sorts it out well. Regardless, my point remains that Jubilees was clearly not part of Josephus' canon. I think everyone would agree with that.
@@DavidWilberBlog absolutely agree. I’m just nitpicking to help you sharpen your arguments.
Hi David and thank you so much for this very exaustive video as for your previous one THE TRUTH ABOUT THE BOOK OF JUBILEES. About this video in particular, you centered the main points of why we should be careful with people that have deep preconceptions about this book of Jubilees and about the book of Enoch as well. Do you know a yt channel called THE GOD CULTURE? That channel too consider Jubilees and Enoch as canon and nothing can be pointed out about possible inconsisitencies in the text because of their too much precious opinion of these books. As an aside note: I'm reading your book on Sabbath, very interesting.
I didn't have to watch very long to see the issue that you saw was a problem. Thanks.
On the topic of fasting on sabbath:
Judith in the book of Judith was fasting all her days except for preparation days and sabbaths. That gives a point to jubilees.
Judith is probably my favorite apocryphal book. It's excellent. She cuts a dude's head off! But in any case, that doesn't prove anything except that Jews at that time adhered to the very common Jewish tradition of not fasting on the Sabbath.
SEAN HAS GONE OFF THE RAILS ....HES A MORMON NOW
To be frank, he's been "off the rails" for a LONG time.
Amen brother. Christians around YT world are marking and avoiding this false teacher!
He's a looney tune
Here's the difference I'm seeing. Sean's video is attacking the doctrine and the argument whilst David's video is attacking Sean.
In his three-hour rant, Sean repeatedly belittled my intelligence, falsely accused me of blindly following rabbinic Judaism in an attempt to poison the well, and openly laughed at how ridiculous he thought I was-all in response to my 15 minute video overview of Jubilees where I merely interacted with certain claims he made. I’m not offended, but let’s not pretend that Sean didn't attack me personally. In any case, you are welcome to not like that I was blunt, but I take it seriously when people denigrate Scripture.
@@DavidWilberBlog you can say you weren't offended but this video tells a different story.
I wasn't offended by his personal attacks. I'm used to that and have been treated much worse by other people who have dedicated three-hour videos to attacking me (Sean is not the only one). After years of abuse from people online who don't like me, nothing really hurts my feelings anymore lol. However, I was definitely offended by his false statements against God's perfect law, the Torah.
The first one to plead his cause seems right,
Until his neighbor comes and examines him. - Pro 18:17 NKJV
For those who have not seen the initial video in question, you can't come to your own conclusions (emphasis on your own conclusion) by just hearing one perspective. That perspective, if well-presented, will always seem right - regardless if its true or not. Hence the verse.
I'd recommend watching the initial video if you havent yet, and then come to your own conclusions..
Cant wait for his 6 hour response vid 😂
Lol!
Bomb rebuttal David,thanks!
Hi David, I was wondering if you believe in the heliocentric theory
Yes
@@DavidWilberBlogthe heliocentric model contradicts biblical cosmology. Genesis states that the sun was created on the 4th day. What was the earth revolving around 3 days prior? It's also worth noting the multitude of scriptural verses that state that the earth is stationary.
Respectfully, I don't think you are handling Scripture correctly if you think it demands that we believe the sun revolves around a stationary earth. I don't care to debate this issue, but you can see my articles on the topic on my website if you want to know what I think. Blessings!
@@dezpierto2704 Heliocentric theory is tied to the Big Band and Evolution...Those three theories cannot be removed from one another. It is sad to see Christians that are either too proud or too scared to be ridiculed for believing God's description of his creation. They avoid the topic like the plague, because the Scriptures clearly support an enclosed, immovable earth
Bickering aside, I find it hard to accept a canon made by men who reject our Messiah. Test everything. Read the books for yourselves then make the decision for yourself. If you haven’t studied them fully, don’t comment on them. This is a general statement to all, not to you David, I know not the books you have studied.
On the other hand, your jabs here and there were bearable, but the straight slander at the end was jaw dropping. I’ve met Sean and spent hours and hours talking with him. You are wrong. He is a good man, a man of YHWH that loves and cares for all, not just his followers. You need to check yourself man. How embarrassing.
Ironically, continuing to mischaracterize my statements about Sean as "slander" borders on slander. I am really tired of that false accusation. Do you all have talking points that you pass around or something? Respectfully, one does not have to like what I said about Sean or agree with it, but my statements are not the same thing as "slander." I am allowed to have my opinion, especially after thoroughly demonstrating why I believe what I do. I take it seriously when people undermine actual Scripture in an attempt to elevate other writings. That's what Mormons and Muslims do.
@@DavidWilberBlog No, I don't have talking points I've been fed and I would reject anyone who would request/require I do. Thanks for the childish insult though. Sorry your feelings are hurt.
Clearly you don't know the definition of slander. I'll help, "Oral communication of false and malicious statements that damage the reputation of another." Insulting me by assuming I can't formulate my own thoughts and opinions shows your lack of character and respect. Sean loves his fellow man and has supported many families and widows through his platforms. Saying he does not care about his followers is quite literally slander. Your insults have no foundation. I'm glad this is public though so everyone can see who you are.
@@nickolico Settle down, my friend. Sheesh. The "talking points" thing was me making a joke since numerous Sean-followers have repeatedly made that very specific accusation against me after Sean accused me of "slander" in several posts he made complaining about my video. In any case, be offended all you want, but when people undermine Scripture by falsely claiming things like that the Torah does not claim to be God’s revelation through Moses, I'm going to call it out. And I'm going to warn people to say away from teachers you say those false things. I'm sure Sean has done some nice things. Joseph Smith gave to charity, but he still led many people down a destructive spiritual path through his false teachings.
@@DavidWilberBlog sounds good buddy, have a nice day.
Time Stamp 5:14 ... "...Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?..." I take it he does not believe in The Messiah either...
Good content! Knowledge of the extra-biblical literature is essential in today's world of disinformation.
Brother? Why not debate Sean? Please do so. Thank you.
Sean keeps telling people that I'm not willing to debate him, but as I directly told him, I am not against doing a debate with him. I like debating people. However, it would need to be a structured, moderated debate-like the debate we had on 1 Enoch. It would also be a while before I could commit to doing it because I am swamped with other obligations right now. I've literally turned down four other offers to be interviewed / debate within the last couple of weeks. I just don't have time right now.
Be blessed brother David. Very cool.
Thanks for watching!
I don't follow Sean and this is the first video of yours I've watched. Excellent debate. However, your inclusion of Justin's photograph as a warning against questioning Paul's authority, is wrong. I knew about Justin's story but only listened to one of his videos with Adam prior, and that initially did serve as a case warning to me to not question obvious discrepancies in Paul's epistles. But we aren't to fear anything but God. And once you see, you cannot unsee.
I wanted to share this excerpt from the Clementine Homilies (Peter talking): Book 2 chapter 38: “For the Scriptures have had joined to them many falsehoods against God on this account. The prophet Moses having by the order of God delivered the law, with the explanations, to certain chosen men, some seventy in number, in order that they also might instruct such of the people as chose, after a little the written law had added to it certain falsehoods contrary to the law of God, who made the heaven and the earth, and all things in them; the wicked one having dared to work this for some righteous purpose. And this took place in reason and judgment, that those might be convicted who should dare to listen to the things written against God, and those who, through love towards Him, should not only disbelieve the things spoken against Him, but should not even endure to hear them at all, even if they should happen to be true, judging it much safer to incur danger with respect to religious faith, than to live with an evil conscience on account of blasphemous words.
Book 2 chapter 40: “Everything that is spoken or written against God is false.”
Book 2 chapter 51: Then Peter said: “If, therefore, some of the Scriptures are true and some false, with good reason said our Master, ‘Be ye good money-changers,’ inasmuch as in the Scriptures there are some true sayings and some spurious. And to those who err by reason of the false scriptures He fitly showed the cause of their error, saying, ‘Ye do therefore err, not knowing the true things of the Scriptures; for this reason ye are ignorant also of the power of God.’”
Book 3 chapter 8: Therefore the love of men towards God is sufficient for salvation. And this the wicked one knows; and while we are hastening to sow the love towards Him which makes immortal in the souls of those who from among the Gentiles are ready to believe in the one and only God, this wicked one, having sufficient armour against the ignorant for their destruction, hastens to sow the supposition of many gods, or at least of one greater, in order that men, conceiving and being persuaded of what is not wisdom, may die, as in the crime of adultery, and be cast out from His kingdom.
Book 3 chapter 45: “But that He is not pleased with sacrifices, is shown by this, that those who lusted after flesh were slain as soon as they tasted it, and were consigned to a tomb, so that it was called the grave of lusts. He then who at the first was displeased with the slaughtering of animals, not wishing them to be slain, did not ordain sacrifices as desiring them; nor from the beginning did He require them. For neither are sacrifices accomplished without the slaughter of animals, nor can the first-fruits be presented. But how is it possible for Him to abide in darkness, and smoke, and storm (for this also is written), who created a pure heaven, and created the sun to give light to all, and assigned the invariable order of their revolutions to innumerable stars? Thus, O Simon, the handwriting of God-I mean the heaven-shows the counsels of Him who made it to be pure and stable.
Book 3 chapter 50: “As to the mixture of truth with falsehood, I remember that on one occasion He [Jesus], finding fault with the Sadducees, said, ‘Wherefore ye do err, not knowing the true things of the Scriptures; and on this account ye are ignorant of the power of God.’ But if He cast up to them that they knew not the true things of the Scriptures, it is manifest that there are false things in them. And also, inasmuch as He said, ‘Be ye prudent money-changers,’ it is because there are genuine and spurious words. And whereas He said, ‘Wherefore do ye not perceive that which is reasonable in the Scriptures?’ He makes the understanding of him stronger who voluntarily judges soundly.
Book 3 chapter 51: “And His sending to the scribes and teachers of the existing Scriptures, as to those who knew the true things of the law that then was, is well known. And also that He said, ‘I am not come to destroy the law,’ and yet that He appeared to be destroying it, is the part of one intimating that the things which He destroyed did not belong to the law. And His saying, ‘The heaven and the earth shall pass away, but one jot or one tittle shall not pass from the law,’ intimated that the things which pass away before the heaven and the earth do not belong to the law in reality.
Book 3 chapter 52: “Since, then, while the heaven and the earth still stand, sacrifices have passed away, and kingdoms, and prophecies among those who are born of woman, and such like, as not being ordinances of God; hence therefore He says, ‘Every plant which the heavenly Father has not planted shall be rooted up.’ Wherefore He, being the true Prophet, said, ‘I am the gate of life; he who entereth through me entereth into life,’ there being no other teaching able to save. Wherefore also He cried, and said, ‘Come unto me, all who labour,’ that is, who are seeking the truth, and not finding it; and again, ‘My sheep hear my voice;’ and elsewhere, ‘Seek and find,’ since the truth does not lie on the surface.
I want to correct you David--you said that according to Sean Genesis through Deuteronomy does not claim to be God's revelation through Moses--what he said was Jubilees is the only book that claims to be a revelation of Moses. nowhere from Genesis through Deuteronomy does it say that these books are a revelation of Moses. Sean did NOT say that these books are NOT a revelation from God through Moses. You clearly twisted what Sean said--i hope this was a misunderstanding on your part and not an attempt to malign and lie about what you brother in Messiah said. I suggest you go back in your video here and carefully listen to what Sean said.
Just to be clear, according to your understanding, Sean said, “Jubilees is the only book that claims to be a revelation of Moses. Nowhere from Genesis through Deuteronomy does it say that these books are a revelation of Moses.”
So, where exactly is my misrepresentation? Because it seems like you agree with my understanding of what Sean said and how I presented his own words. In the clip I played, as you rightly acknowledge, Sean did say that Genesis through Deuteronomy does not claim to come from Moses. He said, “...the opening of Jubilees directly tells you this came from Moses. It’s literally the only book that claims that out of…Genesis through Deuteronomy doesn’t claim that.”
This assertion from Sean is outright false, as I demonstrated. The Torah claims to “come from Moses” countless times. All you have to do is read the Torah to see, over and over, the phrase “the Lord spoke to Moses, and Moses spoke to the people” and similar statements. It’s shocking that Sean would utter such a blatant falsehood, hence my surprised and perplexed reaction to what he said.
@@DavidWilberBlog the Torah did not come from Moses, but by revelation FROM God to Moses. throughout your video here you make so many false claims of Sean's intentions--what i see you doing here is continually maligning your brother. This is a shame--you twist Sean's words over and over and talk like you know his motivations.
@@shaironwakefield9943 Yikes, you are splitting hairs big time here. If Sean didn’t mean what he said, he should have been more clear. That’s not my fault. Jubilees claims to be God’s revelation through Moses (technically, God’s revelation dictated by an angel to Moses). So, when Sean says that Jubilees “claims to be a revelation of Moses,” he must be referring to the explicit claim of Jubilees, which is that it is God’s revelation through Moses, right? So, when Sean says that Genesis through Deuteronomy does NOT claim the same thing that Jubilees claims, again, he must be referring to that explicit claim of Jubilees. Thus, Sean claims that Genesis through Deuteronomy does not claim to be God’s revelation through Moses. According to Sean, Genesis through Deuteronomy "doesn't claim that"-the "that" being the claim of Jubilees. I have not misrepresented what Sean said. I played his own words. If he meant something different from what he said, he needs to clarify. Again, I did nothing wrong by accurately representing what he SAID.
@shaironwakefield9943 you Sean's roadie?
You can quote a verse to him and he'll Look you read in the eyes and tell you that it doesn't say what you just quoted. He is a purposeful deceiver.
Homerun yet again!
Thank you, my friend.
Hi David - psycho analyzations are not needed for debates and typically leads to fallacies on the part on the one analyzing- for example genetic fallacies- I appreciate the data portions that you appeal to though - thank you for your videos and I watch your brother in law IP too - also the torah could not have been all written by Moses - generally main characters were named after them. Within the text though we know that the torah was not written by Moses since you know he cant write about his own death. Among many other updates clearly done throughout the torah. That being said I dont see why he wouldnt have been able to write some or most of it though.
Can you respond or have a debate/conversation with orthodox rabbi asher meza. I think you might have heard of him. He is a rationalist too and he speaks in good faith. He is friendly to messianics but rejects that JESUS is the messiah and has a lot of videos about it on his channel. He has some strong arguments. For example he claims the tanaach was a catholic invention and that jews never considered the prophets and other books on the same level as the Torah. And that the prophetical books were never meant to predict the future but only meant to bring the Jews back to Torah
I have heard of him. I'll look into it.
Apparently David Wilbur has blocked Sean Griffin and refuses to dialogue with him further.
I have not blocked him, but I did tell him not to contact me again until he apologizes-especially because he keeps falsely accusing me of "slandering" him and trying to strong-arm me into a public "discussion" with him by creating a public pressure campaign after I have repeatedly told him no. I do not give bullies what they want, and that apparently frustrates him very much. I have told him that I would be willing to do a moderated debate with him eventually, but that I'm too busy right now. That was the gist of our last conversation. If he told you something different, he is lying.
@@DavidWilberBlog fair enough brother. I can't say for sure that he said you blocked him, he may have just said you refused to respond.
You guys should just have another debate at this point instead of going back and forth.
Oh, I'm done after this video. Way too busy.
@@DavidWilberBlogyou keep claiming you are “way too busy” yet you have time to literally reply to almost every single comment here?!?
@@CanCanGibs Yes, I am way too busy to prepare for a debate with anyone right now (I have turned down four other offers to do interviews and debates within the last couple of weeks, not just Sean's). Also, it doesn't take that long to reply to a comment.
I agree with Sean on something but also disagree on others. @6:45 is a strawman against Seans claims, he claimed Moses might not have written Genesis but that a jew attributed the first 5 books. Sean didnt say anything about the other 4 books only genesis... pretty much the rest of the video was doing the same thing by not accurately representing Seans argument, just strawmans of Seans points.
Sean's words: "Do I care what [Maimonides] claims is the FIRST FIVE BOOKS that are attributed to Moses? They're [note the plural] attributed to Moses. Moses didn't personally pen them [again, note the plural]."
Please do not falsely accuse me of misrepresenting Sean. IF Sean misspoke, that's on him, and he should be responsible and clarify his statements so that he doesn't lead people astray. But I don't think he misspoke. He made similar statements throughout his video. Also, even if he only meant to say Moses didn't write Genesis, that's still pretty bad.
small correction, muslims unlike Mormons do not hold the bible OT or NT as authoritative unless it confirms what is in the Quran.
I swear, every self professed "Scholar" that has the words " In contexts" in the title, is ironically titled. I wish Sean would stop peddling error
David, May God bless you and your work. Thank you for being a faithful witness to the actual Scriptures. I appreciate you man.
The Fetha Nagast leaving out the books as canon, on and off says a lot to his argument. It's bad bad...
The Torah is the bases of the Abrahamic faith. If anything contradicts it then it has to be considered not inspired.
What Torah did Abraham follow?
I honestly don’t even know who seam griffin is. Never heard of him in my life. However, just hearing him speak I feel unsettled in my spirit. I feel like he’s being disingenuous.
I had a debate with him awhile back (ruclips.net/video/VE6UZ2RDA3E/видео.html). It was absolutely maddening 😵💫 He elevates gaslighting and red herrings to the level of a methodology. It's like trying to explain simple math to someone who repeatedly invokes astrology to prove why 2 + 2 ≠ 4 therefore don't eat bacon 🫠
Well, I don't think we should be eating bacon either if it's pork lol. For whatever it's worth, beef bacon tastes fine. But yeah, I've debated Sean before too. My debate with him, however, seemed to go okay because it was a structured, moderated debate. I don't like being constantly interrupted, and that seems to be Sean's style in informal debates from what I've seen.
@@DavidWilberBlog As a Gentile Christian, I take solace in Mark saying that Jesus "declared all foods clean" (Mk. 7:19--save, of course, those foods restricted under the Jerusalem Council, cf., Acts 15:29), not to mention the vision God gave to Peter (Acts 10:15; cf. 1 Tim. 4:1-4).
@@jdspainhour If you're open to hearing another perspective, here is my video on Mark 7 and another video where I read an excerpt from Dr. Jason Staples' paper on Acts 10. I promise you that my exegetical arguments are better than Sean's. Even if you disagree, I hope you'll at least see that not all of us Torah observers are weirdos like Sean, and some of us actually rely on sound scholarship and exegesis.
Mark 7: ruclips.net/video/ugrL259KZSU/видео.html
Acts 10: ruclips.net/video/qpIt_krGXLY/видео.html
@@DavidWilberBlog looking forward to having a listen. Leaving on vacation tomorrow so I’ll plan to listen on the plane 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
@@jdspainhour Unclean foods are not food. Acts 10 was not about food as peter told us. It was a out manmade traditions. And mark 7 was about eating with unclean hands.
When i read the new covenant, it states at the time of the new covenant, eceryone will know yahweh from least to greatest. Hasnt happened yet. Says he will remember my sin no more. Hasnt happened yet.
Also the writer of hebrews says new covenant hasnt happened yet ( is ready to vanish). Hebrews was written 30-70 yrs after the cross.
Even david doesnt agree with you on your understanding of mark 7 and acts 10
Sorry if i came across rude or a noob in live, i have grown alot.
-Bryan
The Torah isn’t the only thing Sean seemingly rejects, it seems he rejects the prophets and the Revelation according to John. This one is a bit difficult to follow due to multiple interruptions but I think you may be interested in it. I’ll try to reply with the link if you’d like to check it out.
ruclips.net/video/sTusWbqCglc/видео.html
And there has not arisen a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,
Deuteronomy 34:10
Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.
Exodus 33:11
And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the Lord make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”
Numbers 12:6-8
Clearly mr. Griffin doesn't know the Bible or have the Holy Spirit. I'm dumber than a sack of hammers so yeah
I might add that in a lot of things you can't trust the choose because number one in that context they have not accepted Messiah so they do not have the Holy Spirit which is the ultimate Giver of Truth. You can trust biblical Scholars to a certain extent but the scriptures of the final Authority. Scripture interpret scripture, in context. I do not believe that extra biblical writings are biblically inspired. Again I will say that Sean Griffin is a nobody trying to be somebody. You can go to Jewish Orthodox Believers about certain things but at the end of the day trusting their interpretation of scripture is probably the wrong thing to do and I've already stated why.
I know you didn’t just say Sean hasn’t tested Jubilees lol.
I can see your points and most of them make sense, my only problem is that you seem to cut off and edit a few of Seans points and thus we as the audience miss a lot of important details that would have made his points more clear. This is especially the case when he rebuttals you on the topic of lots descendants, gentiles, and fasting on the sabbath. But regardless, I still cant say I agree with you, most of these critiques of Jubilees seem fairly superficial and I don't see how any these are worthy of outright condemnation especially since there seems to be rational explanations for all of them.
Thanks for the comment. I highlighted only the most relevant portions of his comments so I could respond to his main points. He tends to ramble and go off into a hundred different directions, and I didn't want this video to be three hours long. Anyone can watch his original video if they want to. Jubilees' opposite message from the Torah on matters such as interactions with Gentiles, Lot's descendants (including the Messiah), and the Sabbath are important. The Bible makes a pretty big deal about how we shouldn't condemn people based on their parents' actions and that we should honor the Sabbath, and I don't think it's right to belittle these things only to try to justify Jubilees. The bottom line is that Jubilees' message on such matters contradicts the Torah's message, and none of Sean's explanations have resolved these issues. As I pointed out, he literally just fabricates contexts for these passages in order to make them fit. That disrespects not only Scripture but also the text of Jubilees that he is trying to defend.
@@DavidWilberBlog Well yah ok, again I think his explanation of the seed being an idiom or it being figurative made sense but we can agree to disagree. I do think though your final message being a little over the top and unnecessary.
@@abiolaadisa1770 His explanation regarding Lot's seed doesn't work within the context of the passage in Jubilees. Lot's descendants are already condemned before they even perform any sinful actions. And also, as I explained in my response, Deuteronomy explicitly commands Israel to leave Lot's descendants alone because God had given them a land inheritance. Again, these are completely opposite attitudes between Jubilees and Scripture no matter how you slice it. I was indeed harsh in calling out Sean but that is because I take it seriously when people carelessly belittle Scripture the way he did. When contrasting Jubilees with the Torah, Sean falsely asserted that the Torah does not claim to be God's revelation through Moses and that Moses did not write the Torah. People who intentionally denigrate Scripture in an effort to elevate other writings (like what Muslims do with their Quran) should be called out.
@@DavidWilberBlog Hmmm well Im not super well versed on this topic but im not aware of any books of the bible besides maybe deuteronomy and leviticus that are directly attributed to moses. And then again with the matter of books, if were being honest its a fairly superficial aspect of the faith as im sure there are plenty of Torah observing christians that have gone along fine who believed that Jubilees is inspired scripture, i mean the core tenants within jubilees check out for me and regarding it anything less than inspired scripture would be the equivalent of calling it fiction. I think giving these books the benefit of the doubt is important as a lot of them have had a very tough time getting to modern society and if there minute errors that u believe are wrong, i think its best to look at the heart of what is being addressed rather than pick apart how u think it contradicts scripture. There are too many factors that we have no idea about to make a definitive judgement on these books imo. Thats why i think its a little to much to condemn anyone who agrees with sean as being a cultist heretic.
@@abiolaadisa1770 Well, I would encourage you to watch the videos I made on the topic because I directly address each of these points. Despite Sean's false statements, the Bible and first-century historical sources repeatedly attribute the Torah to Moses. Again, despite Sean's false statements, the Torah repeatedly claims to be divine revelation given through Moses. As I demonstrated in this video, "observing Christians" have NOT believed that Jubilees inspired Scripture. Sean literally proves my point here. A big reason for this is that the "core tenants" of Jubilees are directly at odds with Scripture, as I have thoroughly demonstrated. These are not minor errors-especially considering that Sean upholds Jubilees at the expense of actual Scripture.
Strong words....but necessary.
Sean needs to believe in Jubiliees so he can teach Mosaic law as the eternal covenant.
An open debate on the topic would be constructive and edifying.
*Sean Griffin is a dangerous heretic.* If he were ever to try to spread the *false doctrines* he teaches online, despite correction, at a congregation which follows Scriptural discipline, then he would soon be *publicly denounced as a false teacher* and removed.
As time-consuming as this video was, I appreciate you making it, David. People like Sean who elevate Jewish fables like Jubilees and “Enoch” need to be publicly refuted. It doesn’t matter how many times Sean throws around the word “brother” and comes across as nice to some.
Yeah, he definitely doesn't come across as "nice" in my experience lol. Throughout his three-hour rant, he repeatedly accused me of being an ignoramus who blindly and unquestionably follows Judaism and biblical scholars. He isn't as bad as other people who have made three hour videos about me though.
Facts
That Globe shows you're still indoctrinated in Babylon.
Lol
Sean is a really good teacher, but on this and other topics he needs to repent and go back to the drawing board.
An excellent teacher, of heretical doctrines
@DavidWilberBlog have you read the entirety of Jubilees? It seems your opinions aren't your own but rather a parody of scholars-with-agendas.
Yes, I have. Did you watch the entirely of this video you are commenting on? It seems your opinions aren't your own but rather a parody of fringe internet "teachers" with agendas.
@@DavidWilberBlog 😉
Lol, I'll take that as a "no."
@@DavidWilberBlog Your response video on Sean's response video, I have not watched entirely. I did, however, watch your response video on the Book of Jubilees where you regurgitate scholastic jargon/opinion. I believe you come-off as disingenuous when speaking about the Apocrypha: only siting what fits your confirmation bias. I don't believe Jubilees is a fringe topic. I think the Book of Jubilees is valid and divinely inspired for today's modern world (as well as the Book of I Enoch), but I guess that's my opinion which "to each his own." Agree to disagree. Cheers!
Thank you for confirming that you did not watch the video you are commenting on. I will promptly disregard your uninformed and useless opinion.
I personally believe you BOTH are setting a horribke example for unbelievers of two believers openly bickering w each other, slandering each other's character etc.
In short,grow up and set a better example, boys. You're both making us ALL look bad.
I suppose Paul should have calmed down with all those letters rebuking people.
would love a friendly debate between you 2, as I am torn on the subject.
I mean, this back and forth is basically a debate. As a side-note, years ago, Sean and I had a formal debate on the book of Enoch (it's online somewhere). During that debate, I pointed out that chapter 71 of 1 Enoch teaches a false Messiah. I still remember Sean's response. He admitted that the text in question indeed says what it says, but suggested that maybe there is an original Aramaic version of the passage that differs from the version of the text we actually have. However, we weren't debating a hypothetical, non-existent version of 1 Enoch, which supposedly says something different in chapter 71. We were debating the actual text of 1 Enoch that we have, which teaches a false Messiah. This naturally raises the question of whether we should consider the existing version of 1 Enoch Scripture, even though Sean admits that it teaches a false Messiah. I'm still waiting on an answer to that.
Sean is wrong about mostly everything he says about the Kingdom.
Dr. Myles Munroe says its here now.
Dr. Myles Munroe > Anyone else about the Kingdom of God.
I am not familiar with Munroe's or Sean's teachings on this issue. But the kingdom is definitely already here now...and also it is not here yet. Through the Messiah, there is overlap between the present age and the age to come. The age to come has, in a sense, invaded the present age. But we still exist in the present age, awaiting the arrival of the kingdom in fullness. A holistic and proper approach to eschatology recognizes this tension.
@@DavidWilberBlog Don't trust what you know, Dr. Mylea Munroe will make it CLEAR to you with scripture in videos like:
"Rediscovering the Kingdom"
"The Original Plan of God"
And practically any other video you watch of him.
God blessed us with this man, please forget what you know for just a second, and in humility and hunger for justice and righteousness, continue now your path onto Dr. Myles Munroe.
The only instruction on the Kingdom I trust.
@@DavidWilberBlog Shalom and blessings David. Please stay well clear of any teachings by Munroe. He was a word of faith false teacher. One of his quotes whilst speaking to another heretic, Benny Hinn, goes as follows
"God could do nothing on Earth, nothing has God ever done on Earth, without a human giving him access. So he’s always looking for a human to give him power permission. In other words, God has the power, but you have the permission. God has the authority and the power, you’ve got the license. So even though God could do anything, he can only do what you permit him to do"
Unfortunately, he and his wife died in a plane crash in 2014. I hope he repented before his last breath.
Every blessing Brother. David (UK)
Sean griffin is wrong about a great many things
Thanks Palpatine
If he rejects Christianity and Judaism (and I’m assuming Islam?), then what is he exactly? A pseudo-qumranite?
David, you believe you live on a spinning ball too, if I’m correct? I can’t trust your opinion or take you too serious if you don’t believe creation.
Lol correct, I reject flat earthism. Are you the person who said I worship a "globe idol" because I have a globe on my bookshelf?
i lean towards a flat earth but these comments really get me 😂😂 as if everyone who doesnt lean towards a flat earth should be thrown in the valley of distrust and hate 😂 Davids opinions are absolutely astounding, well presented, well articulated, well sourced and on topics ge has researched thoroughly.
lets leave the division on earths shape out of it ❤️ it really becomes a weapon of division for the enemy... im.speaking as someone who left comments similar when i forst dived into the exciting world of flat earth all those years ago..
@@DavidWilberBlogBrother, do you think the food pyramid is good advice from the government? How about the....you know.... from the cdc?
False teacher alert. Do not be fooled by this mans rhetoric. Sean Griffin is the most researched man I’ve ever come across. I’d assume you’re still living on 🌍 and maintaining the lie.
What a weird way to say "I only consider views that agree with me"
Wow...I'm glade we have like faith and are in agreement...poor Sean got a whipping. Lol that's why study is so important and scripture speaks of novices...
Think you went a to far by calling Sean a false prophet David and a cult not a good look for you. You may disagree on this book but I know he would have not said those types of things about you. Get out of the judgment seat! you have lost a follower.
I was indeed harsh. But that's because I consider Sean's disparagement of Scripture to be very serious. When contrasting Jubilees with the Torah, he stated that the Torah does not claim to be God's revelation through Moses, that Moses did not write it, and that nobody attributed the Torah to Moses until the 12th century AD. Not even the most liberal of liberal secular scholars make such crazy claims. Not to mention the fact that these claims were demonstrably false, as I demonstrated. I was not harsh with Sean for merely believing that Jubilees is inspired but for his denigration of the Torah in his effort to elevate other writings. I hope that helps explain my harsh tone.
I'd also like to say, in Sean's video, he repeatedly belittled my intelligence and accused me of blindly following rabbinic Judaism and of not reading Jubilees. I'm not offended, but let's not pretend that Sean was charitable and not judgmental in his response toward me. All I did was play his own words and highlight the seriousness of his errors.
David I’ve listened to both you and Sean for a couple of years now and Sean doesn’t handle everything perfectly but neither do you or I. Do you think Yeshua would have handled it that way??? Just realized that you and Sean love Yeshua our messiah even if you disagree. Pray about it brother!
@@shaunhood4796
You should read Yeshua's words Matthew 23 to the pharisees, Paul's words in Titus 1 regarding Cretians, Paul called out by name false teachers in his letters, the whole book of Jude, 2 Peter 2, and Yeshua's words in Revelation 2 regarding the nicolaitans and jezebel.
Yes, Yeshua would have responded in the same way as David. Sean is not above correction and rebuking and needs to repent for his misinformation, false teaching, and his prideful and arrogant behavior.
I have never heard Sean admit he was wrong in his teaching or repent when corrected and he often contradicts himself and is leading many astray.
He teaches polytheism and he also teaches Yeshua is doing sacrifices right now in heaven as high priest to the Father for our sins. And that His blood wasn't the full and final atonement for His people.
The Father is made of water and spirit. And Yeshua's resurrected body was not flesh, He was water and Spirit and that's how He walked through the wall. Really wacked out teachings that are contrary to the Word of God.
He's leading thousands to 🔥
Enoch 71:14-17 retranslation says a lot about Enoch. Enoch is the Son of Man figure really kills the book. The parables of Enoch are probably written post Jesus.
Ezekiel is called son of man also. 93 times.
May the Lord Jesus bless you for having the strength to watching THREE WHOLE HOURS of this guy talking about stuff he knows nothing about and lying. I bet you envied Job’s suffering as you sat through that 😂
I only heard of you David after badmouthing Sean. Imo the 66 books are not complete. You believe King James, a FreeMason didn't take any books out when translating into English, yet other scholars who translated other languages and included other books were wrong? You're so convinced, you will bash Sean online, tell him to respond to your video, then gaslight him for doing so? Why the division dude.......
I see a globe. Are you a Globe believer David??????????
Exactly 🎯
@@Clay-Freemanflat earth is a satanic psyop pushed by cultists.
David is wrong on many topics like the 3 equal God heresy called the trinity. or Yahweh's flat earth, or there're only 66 inspired books for Scripture. Etc. None of us have it all perfect.